November 27, 2024 • 21 mins
In this episode, we speak to Australia's first official astronaut, Katherine Bennell-Pegg, about her lifelong passion for space exploration and how she pursued her dream of becoming an astronaut.
We also covered:
- The importance of international experience and cultural adaptability in the astronaut selection process and training
- The rigorous and diverse nature of astronaut training, including spacecraft systems, robotics, survival techniques, and more
- The exciting future of space exploration, including missions to the Moon and the scientific research opportunities on the International Space Station
- Advice for those interested in space-related careers, emphasizing the need for purpose-driven work and a willingness to step outside one's comfort zone
We last covered space on the podcast in Season 4, Episode 3 - Space Based Solar Power.
Quotable Quotes:
"Working in an international environment from a project basis as well as from a life basis really made me say that there's lots of different kinds of engineers, lots of ways to culturally come to solutions."
"Being an astronaut is bigger than the space sector. It's for many kinds of researchers, as well as raising the aspirations of the public as well."
Resources:
Katherine on LinkedIn
Katherine on Instagram
Katherine on Twitter
Learn more about Katherine Bennell-Pegg and the Australian Space Agency at space.gov.au
Explore the International Space Station and its scientific research here.
Thank you to Katherine, Engineers Australia and Frank Gallagher for contributing to this episode.
Thanks for listening to Digitally Curious. You can buy the book that showcases these episodes at curious.click/order
Your Host is Actionable Futurist® Andrew Grill
For more on Andrew - what he speaks about and recent talks, please visit ActionableFuturist.com
Andrew's Social Channels
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@AndrewGrill on Twitter
@Andrew.Grill on Instagram
Keynote speeches here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Digitally Curious, a podcast to help you
navigate the future of AI andbeyond.
Your host is world-renownedfuturist and author of Digitally
Curious, Andrew Grill.
Every episode is filled withactionable advice about
technology that will helpenhance you and your business.
(00:23):
That will help enhance you andyour business.
Andrew's guests will help youbecome more curious about the
latest tech and what's justaround the corner.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
As many listeners may know, I started my career in
the space industry designingsatellite modems for the
University of South Australia,then as an engineer at the Optus
Satellite Earth Station atBelrose in Sydney, and was later
involved with the design of aninnovative satellite
communications platform theAustralian Army while at British
Aerospace.
Australia Space has always beensomething that's fascinated me,
(00:53):
so I'm thrilled that we haveAustralia's first qualified
astronaut, catherineBennell-Pegg, on the show today.
Catherine's journey is nothingshort of extraordinary, from
growing up under the starryskies of Sydney's northern
beaches to earning her placeamongst the elite ranks of the
European Space Agency.
Catherine's story is one ofrelentless determination and
groundbreaking achievement.
(01:14):
Her 13 months of rigorousastronaut training with the
European Space Agency includedmastering spacecraft systems,
robotics and survival techniques, and culminated in her historic
graduation as Australia's firstofficial astronaut.
Catherine now stands ready toinspire future generations and
represent Australia on missionsto the International Space
(01:34):
Station and beyond.
This conversation was part of alonger interview for an
Engineers Australia UK chapterevent held in London, but it was
just too good to keep to a roomfull of Australian engineers,
so I'm delighted to be able toshare Catherine's story on the
Digitally Curious podcast.
Catherine, let's kick off.
What got you into space.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
For me it was always sort of space or bus.
I always loved, you know,looking up at the stars and
wanted to go explore them, likemost kids do.
About seven out of 10 Aussiekids under the age of 12 want to
be astronauts, which isphenomenal, and I think it just
comes from, you know, thatchildhood curiosity and desire
for adventure.
Many of us have the same reasonyou look under a rock or climb
(02:16):
a tree, the same reason peoplewanted to explore our world.
Since, you know, humanity beganand also explore space, and as
I grew up, I really wanted to bean astronaut and so I set out
to see what that would take andI saw that to be an astronaut,
you could have a career inpretty much any STEM field.
It didn't have to be a spacecareer.
(02:37):
It could be in science andengineering and math, pilot, be
a doctor.
You should be someone that likeexpeditions, whether that's
scientific expeditions or otherkinds of adventures, and you
should have operational skills,live internationally and all
these things, and that allsounded pretty great.
And I ended up studying physicsand engineering at uni in Sydney
(02:59):
because the engineering degreehad the word space in the title
space engineering and I didn'teven really know what
engineering was, beyond thedefinition of the term, but I
knew that it would build on myexperience flying and the
physics that I love so much, andwhile it was a slog at the
beginning, I loved it by the endwhen you got to stop answering
questions in the back of atextbook and actually got to be
(03:21):
creative.
But I realized at that pointthat I couldn't have the kind of
career I wanted in Australia,which was to develop big,
beautiful space missions not atthat time and so I went overseas
and studied a bit more,including at Cranfield
University in the UK, and thencracked into the space sector.
After some internships at spaceagencies, finally got my first
(03:42):
job at Airbus Defence and Spacein Stevenage, which was a
wonderful adventure of living inthe UK, where my mother's
family's from, and having aninternational lifestyle like
many of us have.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
International experience is something I've
always found important for mycareer, and I'm interested in
your own experience of livingand working outside Australia.
How did this help you become anastronaut?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I got to live and work as a space engineer in six
countries, some of them multipletimes, germany.
I've lived there three or fourtimes, depending on how you
count it, for example, and Ifound that working in an
international environment from aproject basis as well as from a
life basis really made me saythat there's lots of different
kinds of engineers, lots of waysto culturally come to solutions
(04:26):
and, in fact, in the astronautselection, something that the
degree of which its importanceto me was unexpected, was how
much international experience inthe selection and in your
ability to get through thetraining, like things like you
know looking through words ofwhat people say to their intent,
and being generous in you knowlooking through words of what
people say to their intent andbeing generous in you know
(04:47):
interpreting what people saywith an optimism, bias,
understanding.
You know the way people givefeedback is different, the way
people act is different and thatdoesn't mean you stereotype
different cultures, but it makesyou see that there's a spectrum
of ways to get things done andyou can take the best and worst
of different things.
I know I've had to effectivelymediate between you know people
(05:09):
that may be Dutch and Japanesein a project where one's
extremely direct and the other'sextremely indirect, but you all
have the same united purposeand passion and, with the right
experiences, internationally andinterculturally, you can get
through that.
And in space, as you all know,frank, you know a team of
astronauts from a team ofnations, each with a huge
(05:30):
ecosystem on the ground, allworking together as well.
So that's a huge part of it, um, but yeah, for me, um, like
there's, I think that there area few things that were really
wonderful about a space career.
You know, um, for me, I got to,you know, launch payloads on
high altitude balloons andwitness rockets be launched from
(05:52):
above the polar circle.
In Sweden, when I worked in theUK, I got to work on, um, you
know, lisa, pathfinder, agravity wave mission, an Earth
observation mission, and laterin Germany on human spaceflight
vehicles and platforms androbotic missions.
And you know I was having suchan amazing time doing that.
I learned so much from thepeople around me, and it was
(06:14):
when the Australian Space Agencyset up that I was attracted
home.
I was attracted home, and youknow, to do something greater
than I ever thought I'd be ableto do as a space engineer, which
is to help, not just develop apiece of technology or a mission
, which was thrilling to do, butactually to help grow a whole
space sector.
And now, as an astronaut, I seebeing an astronaut is bigger
than the space sector.
(06:35):
It's for many kinds ofresearchers, as well as raising
the aspirations of the public aswell.
So yeah, it's been a reallyinteresting journey, I would say
.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I'm a futurist, so I have to ask you what excites you
about the future?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Oh, I mean, it's such an exciting time to be an
astronaut, especially a rookieastronaut, like graduating from
astronaut training is reallyjust the beginning of whatever
may lie ahead.
As you say, you know theInternational Space Station,
this big, beautiful facilitythat is almost the size of a
soccer field, 109 meters across,you know, with the internal
volume of like the passengerpart of an A380, just filled
(07:13):
with science facilities, that'sgoing to retire so that, you
know, people can go forward tothe moon and also explore
low-Earth orbit in a morecommercial way.
So there's going to be in a notvery optimistic scenario, but
you know lots of differentdestinations for astronauts,
lots of kind of work to do, yeah, whether contributing to those
from the ground or, you know, inspace as an astronaut.
(07:33):
It's incredible.
You know we're going back tothe moon not to repeat what we
did before, but you know to goto a different part of the moon,
the South Polar region, wherewe can stay longer because it's
light.
For longer you don't have thetwo weeks daylight and two weeks
darkness and in the valleyswhere it's always dark, it's the
coldest part of the solarsystem and that pushes
everything we have, pushes ourengineering.
(07:55):
It'll push our understanding ofthe universe and how the earth
formed and also help to dothings like refine of the
universe and how the earthformed and also, you know, help
to do things like refinegeothermal input into climate
models.
So, yeah, for me, just lookingto contribute to that endeavor
and to the kind of science youcan do in space, like medical
research the amount of scienceyou can do up there, especially
in medical research, blew meaway on the training In my
(08:16):
immediate future.
You know I'm focusing right nowon getting out across Australia
and opening doors forresearchers to have more access
and awareness of humanspaceflight, as well as
different businesses that couldenter into supply chain gaps and
offer engineering solutions,for example.
And this year in the lastcouple of months I've been
speaking to a lot of kids inparticularly in remote and
(08:37):
regional areas to, you know, tryand uplift their aspirations,
whatever they may be, whetherit's space or STEM or something
else altogether, just to teachthem to themselves, I hope.
But yeah, it's pretty excitingand you know, being an astronaut
, just like being a flightdirector, there's always an
element of international living,even if you're not zooming
around the earth every 90minutes Training is, you know,
(09:00):
in the US, it's in Japan, it canbe in Russia, it's in Europe
and Canada.
So, yeah, I expect a lot more ofthat in my future.
And one of the learnings Iguess I took forward from living
abroad when I was in the UK andacross Europe for was you know
how important having hobbies iswhen you live abroad, like
sports, particularly for me,were a way that was easy to make
(09:23):
friends as opposed to nothaving that vector.
And in space as well,astronauts do a lot of sport to
relax and have team bonding.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
What should someone listening to this podcast who's
also dreamed about being anastronaut be thinking about?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
If you are interested in space as a career whatever
your career is, whether you'rean engineer or otherwise that
it's a really exciting time towork in space and we need all
kinds of thinkers and all kindsof doers to help prepare for the
future of space activities.
You know space criticallyunderpins our lives today in a
(10:02):
way that many people don't knowabout.
Across Australia about a yearago a whole load of farmers
couldn't work for more than aday because there was a failure
in one single satellite systemthat affected all the
GPS-enabled tractors that usethat system.
And it wasn't a failure thatanyone expected be a
vulnerability in the industry.
People just didn't understandspace enough to see how
(10:23):
critically we rely on it.
You know space ultimately isjust a place.
You know it's an eye in the skyfrom where we can see
phenomenon around the world.
So it's been used to trackrefugees, so we can do food
drops better, to identify modernslavery, to identify fires and
to help manage remote industries.
And from what you can see fromthat eye in the sky you can
connect.
(10:44):
And what you can connect youcan inform.
So, like every time you tapyour phone to pay for something,
you're using space technology.
And beyond that.
You know, human spaceflight,which is often thought of as
perhaps the most niche, or daresay even luxurious part of space
, actually is really criticalfor scientific research as well
(11:05):
as economic opportunity, in waysthat I didn't realize at the
time I started my astronauttraining.
I knew it in the shallow but notin the depth, because in space,
when you have the gravityvector removed, you're not under
1g of gravity anymore andyou're exposed to radiation.
In an isolated, confined,remote environment, phenomena
(11:26):
change right, so crystals growlarger and more pure, things mix
differently.
You don't have heat flow basedconvection, only forced
convection, and that means wecan do amazing research into
medicines, into mixing of newthings like concrete, into
antimicrobial devices, and thelist goes on and on, and so
being able to do that uniquescience in space is unlocking a
(11:47):
lot on earth too.
So, yeah, for those that arepurpose-driven, space is
absolutely an opportunity towork in, and for those of you
that are working internationallyin other areas, know that
working internationally is goodfor you as a whole person as
well as your career.
Despite the challenges, I thinkI would never change that.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
So what does it take to be an astronaut?
What should you be studying now?
Do you have to be a scientistor an engineer?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, I remember when I was at Airbus in Stevenage in
the thermal team we hiredsomeone from a biscuit factory.
He brought such good ideas likea thermal engineer making
biscuits right.
And I've heard of people from astory of someone from SeaWorld
being hired into SpaceX right,because they knew how to use
valves in a really creative wayand build those kinds of systems
(12:36):
.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
What rules do you follow to help grow your career?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
I'm always a fan of pushing yourself outside your
comfort zone, of taking on tasksthat seem a bit out of reach,
because I think we're allcapable of more than we imagine
ourselves to be and I've alwaysbelieved that everything is a
product of talent, time andeffort.
Right and effort is the mostimportant.
The other two things just makeit faster or more efficient.
So if you're reallypurpose-driven and love
(13:02):
something and you're willing towork at it, you can get there.
And for me, when I first got towork on the analysis of part of
a space mission, and then acomponent, and then a subsystem,
and then a mission, and then anindustry, and now be an
astronaut each one of thosethings I was like I've made it.
And I was like oh's more to do.
And you know, you just keepgoing and going and I remember
(13:23):
early in my career being quiteintimidated when I felt like I
was very far from being thesmartest in the room, if I was
the least experienced in theroom and the most unsure.
And the more experienced I'vegot as an engineer, the more
willing I am to ask thepotentially silly question,
because I have no shame in it,because my goal is now to
(13:44):
understand.
If you hide the question youdon't progress.
And you know, on astronauttraining, in the classroom there
were usually six of us asstudents.
You needed to understand, soyou just ask the silly question,
right, Even if there's camerasin there.
You need to get the knowledgeand so to do that you need to
really quickly build thatpsychological safety in your
team to progress that.
(14:05):
But yeah, for me, I mean Ithink that Obviously I've had a
few stage changes, the biggestone being from space engineer to
astronaut.
But I'm lucky that the spacepart of my career continues when
you're between big trainingblocks.
You've pretty much used yourexperience from your original
(14:26):
day job as an astronaut to keepmoving forward.
And on the astronaut training welearned so much.
We learned a lot about sciencebecause we're scientists in the
sky, the hands, the eyes, theears of scientists on the ground
.
We're medical guinea pigs, sowe learned how to do medical
tests on each other and others.
We did all the expeditions likewinter survival, ocean survival
(14:48):
.
We went in parabolic flight,vomit comets and zero-g planes.
We did scuba diving to learnhow to do the first learnings
about spacewalks in simulatorsto fly the robotic arm.
We even had to learn a foreignlanguage, space history and
policy.
It was really wonderful becauseI love learning and I love
ideas and this was just a greatway to do that.
(15:10):
It's part of a great teamatmosphere and to do that for
the first time representingAustralia, makes me so excited.
Now I've come home to use thatknowledge to try and unlock the
ability for more Australians tobe involved in human spaceflight
Maybe one day even moreAustralian astronauts, because
imagine what that would do forour country.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
What challenges did you face on your path to
becoming Australia's firstastronaut?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I only had a few weeks notice that I was actually
going to be an astronaut beforeI started training there.
So my head was absolutelyspinning.
And, you know, I arrived at theEuropean Astronaut Centre,
which is near Cologne, on thefirst day and they had all of
our class time to arrivetogether.
And when we entered the bigentrance hall, we had, you know,
up on the first day and theyhad all of our class time to
(15:56):
arrive together.
And when we entered the bigentrance hall, we had, you know,
up on the screen next to thishuge ISS International Space
Station model.
It said welcome home.
And it kind of felt like thatbecause I'd been away from
Europe, you know, four years andI was coming back to not the
same place that was my home, butto part of my former life in
the European space industry.
(16:16):
And waiting for us as we walkedthrough the doors in that
entrance hall was so many of theESA, the European Space Agency
existing astronauts and retiredastronauts and it was really
kind of overwhelming becausethey are, you know, astronauts
that I had looked up to for mywhole career.
You know, I'd read a lot oftheir biographies, um, and they
(16:37):
were welcoming us as peers andit was like, okay, our life is
changing now, like you could seethat that shift starting to
occur, but quickly enough.
You know you're so busy, yeah,you barely have time to step
back and take a breath and andreflect.
Um, so you know just thelogistics of moving country.
We're tough with two kids and ahusband.
But hats off to my husband.
(16:58):
He took on the hard stuff there, but for me I think it was hard
to pace myself.
We had over 300 instructors inthe 13 months we were trained
and every one of them was anexpert in their field and would
hunt down the answer to anyquestion you had and they'd put
in, you know, hundreds of hoursfor each of their lessons.
(17:19):
So they were spectacular andyou just have to sometimes just
stop and keep energy for thenext class and not go down every
rabbit hole, not do everythingto perfection, because
eventually you won't be able tokeep that up, because eventually
you won't be able to keep thatup.
And it's really good practicefor being in space, which
missions are usually six monthsnow, meaning that it's a
marathon, not a sprint.
So having those self-careprinciples, which is one of the
(17:44):
principles we learn about in thehuman behavior and performance
module we have, which I think issimilar to the op team.
Where you look at.
You know there's aninternational space station
human behavior and performancemodel.
You can Google one of the oldversions.
It's good reading and that takesyou through things like
self-care, which for me issomething that at times in my
career I have not respected.
You know, I'm sure a lot of ushave burnt the candle at both
(18:06):
ends a lot, but you know it'simportant that you know rest.
You rest enough to work well,not work hard enough to deserve
a rest, because in space, if youmess up at the wrong time,
because you're tired at a timewhen it's non-optimal to be
tired and you might not knowwhen that is, then there are big
consequences.
So yeah, that was somethingthat I had to learn and on top
(18:27):
of that, learning Russian.
That was hard.
I'm not a language person and Ihad to put in a lot of extra
effort from day one on that andI was so happy when I got
through it and I was like, great, I might actually pass this
thing.
Now I've got through thatmodule.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Your astronaut training seems to be pretty
rigorous, so was there anythingthat surprised you in the
training that you hadn'tanticipated?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Not really, because I had studied so much in the
selection what I was going to beexpecting.
I'd like speed read everybiography I could find to
understand what I'd be in for.
But what did surprise me in areally positive way was how, in
the European Space Agencyastronaut training, we were not
competitive at all, not even inpersonality.
(19:10):
So we were, you know, informedreally early in the training.
Your flight are not competingagainst each other.
The decisions are made aremultifactorial.
If you get through the training, you've all got every chance to
progress well.
So back each other through thetraining.
You'll each have differentstrengths and weaknesses.
(19:31):
We all came from totallydifferent backgrounds.
The two of us were engineers,one more aero, with a bit of
space myself space.
There was an astrophysicist, aneuroscientist, a helicopter
test pilot and a doctor, and weall had multiple kind of
second-level careers as well.
And how can you compareyourself in medical training to
someone that's a doctor?
You can't compare.
(19:51):
So you just help each other outand get along with it.
And so that camaraderie we hadwas fantastic, and that's not
something that I had expected.
I thought it would be fun butcompetitive, and so, yeah, that
was one of the best parts of itwas going through it together
and now cheering each other on.
Two of my class have alreadybeen assigned missions, which is
awesome, and we're all soexcited for them.
(20:11):
Them, and I look forward toseeing the others go up too.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
What key things would you like our audience to take
away from this episode?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Dream big for yourself, whatever your dreams
may be like for yourself, yourcommunity, your world.
And as you do that, you know,do it because you love the
journey, not just thedestination, and write your own
story on your way there.
There's lots of many, there'smany, many ways to get to a goal
(20:39):
that you know.
You have dreams that becomegoals, that become actions, and
so just pursue that withouthesitation if you think it's
something worth doing.
I'd also say keep going tonetworking events like this one.
Building an understanding ofwhat's happening within a
broader network, as well aspeople in your workplace, is a
(21:00):
way to see opportunities andsolutions to problems that you
might not have realised existed.
Yeah, they'd be my two mainpoints.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Thank you so much for speaking with us today,
catherine.
You can learn more about herwork at the Australian Space
Agency at spacegovau.
Thank you to Catherine.
Engineers Australia andFrankious is available at
digitallycuriousai.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Until next time, we invite you to stay digitally
curious.
Welcome to Digitally Curious, a podcast to help you
navigate the future of AI andbeyond.
Your host is world-renownedfuturist and author of Digitally
Curious, Andrew Grill.
Every episode is filled withactionable advice about
technology that will helpenhance you and your business.
(00:23):
That will help enhance you andyour business.
Andrew's guests will help youbecome more curious about the
latest tech and what's justaround the corner.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
As many listeners may know, I started my career in
the space industry designingsatellite modems for the
University of South Australia,then as an engineer at the Optus
Satellite Earth Station atBelrose in Sydney, and was later
involved with the design of aninnovative satellite
communications platform theAustralian Army while at British
Aerospace.
Australia Space has always beensomething that's fascinated me,
(00:53):
so I'm thrilled that we haveAustralia's first qualified
astronaut, catherineBennell-Pegg, on the show today.
Catherine's journey is nothingshort of extraordinary, from
growing up under the starryskies of Sydney's northern
beaches to earning her placeamongst the elite ranks of the
European Space Agency.
Catherine's story is one ofrelentless determination and
groundbreaking achievement.
(01:14):
Her 13 months of rigorousastronaut training with the
European Space Agency includedmastering spacecraft systems,
robotics and survival techniques, and culminated in her historic
graduation as Australia's firstofficial astronaut.
Catherine now stands ready toinspire future generations and
represent Australia on missionsto the International Space
(01:34):
Station and beyond.
This conversation was part of alonger interview for an
Engineers Australia UK chapterevent held in London, but it was
just too good to keep to a roomfull of Australian engineers,
so I'm delighted to be able toshare Catherine's story on the
Digitally Curious podcast.
Catherine, let's kick off.
What got you into space.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
For me it was always sort of space or bus.
I always loved, you know,looking up at the stars and
wanted to go explore them, likemost kids do.
About seven out of 10 Aussiekids under the age of 12 want to
be astronauts, which isphenomenal, and I think it just
comes from, you know, thatchildhood curiosity and desire
for adventure.
Many of us have the same reasonyou look under a rock or climb
(02:16):
a tree, the same reason peoplewanted to explore our world.
Since, you know, humanity beganand also explore space, and as
I grew up, I really wanted to bean astronaut and so I set out
to see what that would take andI saw that to be an astronaut,
you could have a career inpretty much any STEM field.
It didn't have to be a spacecareer.
(02:37):
It could be in science andengineering and math, pilot, be
a doctor.
You should be someone that likeexpeditions, whether that's
scientific expeditions or otherkinds of adventures, and you
should have operational skills,live internationally and all
these things, and that allsounded pretty great.
And I ended up studying physicsand engineering at uni in Sydney
(02:59):
because the engineering degreehad the word space in the title
space engineering and I didn'teven really know what
engineering was, beyond thedefinition of the term, but I
knew that it would build on myexperience flying and the
physics that I love so much, andwhile it was a slog at the
beginning, I loved it by the endwhen you got to stop answering
questions in the back of atextbook and actually got to be
(03:21):
creative.
But I realized at that pointthat I couldn't have the kind of
career I wanted in Australia,which was to develop big,
beautiful space missions not atthat time and so I went overseas
and studied a bit more,including at Cranfield
University in the UK, and thencracked into the space sector.
After some internships at spaceagencies, finally got my first
(03:42):
job at Airbus Defence and Spacein Stevenage, which was a
wonderful adventure of living inthe UK, where my mother's
family's from, and having aninternational lifestyle like
many of us have.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
International experience is something I've
always found important for mycareer, and I'm interested in
your own experience of livingand working outside Australia.
How did this help you become anastronaut?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I got to live and work as a space engineer in six
countries, some of them multipletimes, germany.
I've lived there three or fourtimes, depending on how you
count it, for example, and Ifound that working in an
international environment from aproject basis as well as from a
life basis really made me saythat there's lots of different
kinds of engineers, lots of waysto culturally come to solutions
(04:26):
and, in fact, in the astronautselection, something that the
degree of which its importanceto me was unexpected, was how
much international experience inthe selection and in your
ability to get through thetraining, like things like you
know looking through words ofwhat people say to their intent,
and being generous in you knowlooking through words of what
people say to their intent andbeing generous in you know
(04:47):
interpreting what people saywith an optimism, bias,
understanding.
You know the way people givefeedback is different, the way
people act is different and thatdoesn't mean you stereotype
different cultures, but it makesyou see that there's a spectrum
of ways to get things done andyou can take the best and worst
of different things.
I know I've had to effectivelymediate between you know people
(05:09):
that may be Dutch and Japanesein a project where one's
extremely direct and the other'sextremely indirect, but you all
have the same united purposeand passion and, with the right
experiences, internationally andinterculturally, you can get
through that.
And in space, as you all know,frank, you know a team of
astronauts from a team ofnations, each with a huge
(05:30):
ecosystem on the ground, allworking together as well.
So that's a huge part of it, um, but yeah, for me, um, like
there's, I think that there area few things that were really
wonderful about a space career.
You know, um, for me, I got to,you know, launch payloads on
high altitude balloons andwitness rockets be launched from
(05:52):
above the polar circle.
In Sweden, when I worked in theUK, I got to work on, um, you
know, lisa, pathfinder, agravity wave mission, an Earth
observation mission, and laterin Germany on human spaceflight
vehicles and platforms androbotic missions.
And you know I was having suchan amazing time doing that.
I learned so much from thepeople around me, and it was
(06:14):
when the Australian Space Agencyset up that I was attracted
home.
I was attracted home, and youknow, to do something greater
than I ever thought I'd be ableto do as a space engineer, which
is to help, not just develop apiece of technology or a mission
, which was thrilling to do, butactually to help grow a whole
space sector.
And now, as an astronaut, I seebeing an astronaut is bigger
than the space sector.
(06:35):
It's for many kinds ofresearchers, as well as raising
the aspirations of the public aswell.
So yeah, it's been a reallyinteresting journey, I would say
.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I'm a futurist, so I have to ask you what excites you
about the future?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Oh, I mean, it's such an exciting time to be an
astronaut, especially a rookieastronaut, like graduating from
astronaut training is reallyjust the beginning of whatever
may lie ahead.
As you say, you know theInternational Space Station,
this big, beautiful facilitythat is almost the size of a
soccer field, 109 meters across,you know, with the internal
volume of like the passengerpart of an A380, just filled
(07:13):
with science facilities, that'sgoing to retire so that, you
know, people can go forward tothe moon and also explore
low-Earth orbit in a morecommercial way.
So there's going to be in a notvery optimistic scenario, but
you know lots of differentdestinations for astronauts,
lots of kind of work to do, yeah, whether contributing to those
from the ground or, you know, inspace as an astronaut.
(07:33):
It's incredible.
You know we're going back tothe moon not to repeat what we
did before, but you know to goto a different part of the moon,
the South Polar region, wherewe can stay longer because it's
light.
For longer you don't have thetwo weeks daylight and two weeks
darkness and in the valleyswhere it's always dark, it's the
coldest part of the solarsystem and that pushes
everything we have, pushes ourengineering.
(07:55):
It'll push our understanding ofthe universe and how the earth
formed and also help to dothings like refine of the
universe and how the earthformed and also, you know, help
to do things like refinegeothermal input into climate
models.
So, yeah, for me, just lookingto contribute to that endeavor
and to the kind of science youcan do in space, like medical
research the amount of scienceyou can do up there, especially
in medical research, blew meaway on the training In my
(08:16):
immediate future.
You know I'm focusing right nowon getting out across Australia
and opening doors forresearchers to have more access
and awareness of humanspaceflight, as well as
different businesses that couldenter into supply chain gaps and
offer engineering solutions,for example.
And this year in the lastcouple of months I've been
speaking to a lot of kids inparticularly in remote and
(08:37):
regional areas to, you know, tryand uplift their aspirations,
whatever they may be, whetherit's space or STEM or something
else altogether, just to teachthem to themselves, I hope.
But yeah, it's pretty excitingand you know, being an astronaut
, just like being a flightdirector, there's always an
element of international living,even if you're not zooming
around the earth every 90minutes Training is, you know,
(09:00):
in the US, it's in Japan, it canbe in Russia, it's in Europe
and Canada.
So, yeah, I expect a lot more ofthat in my future.
And one of the learnings Iguess I took forward from living
abroad when I was in the UK andacross Europe for was you know
how important having hobbies iswhen you live abroad, like
sports, particularly for me,were a way that was easy to make
(09:23):
friends as opposed to nothaving that vector.
And in space as well,astronauts do a lot of sport to
relax and have team bonding.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
What should someone listening to this podcast who's
also dreamed about being anastronaut be thinking about?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
If you are interested in space as a career whatever
your career is, whether you'rean engineer or otherwise that
it's a really exciting time towork in space and we need all
kinds of thinkers and all kindsof doers to help prepare for the
future of space activities.
You know space criticallyunderpins our lives today in a
(10:02):
way that many people don't knowabout.
Across Australia about a yearago a whole load of farmers
couldn't work for more than aday because there was a failure
in one single satellite systemthat affected all the
GPS-enabled tractors that usethat system.
And it wasn't a failure thatanyone expected be a
vulnerability in the industry.
People just didn't understandspace enough to see how
(10:23):
critically we rely on it.
You know space ultimately isjust a place.
You know it's an eye in the skyfrom where we can see
phenomenon around the world.
So it's been used to trackrefugees, so we can do food
drops better, to identify modernslavery, to identify fires and
to help manage remote industries.
And from what you can see fromthat eye in the sky you can
connect.
(10:44):
And what you can connect youcan inform.
So, like every time you tapyour phone to pay for something,
you're using space technology.
And beyond that.
You know, human spaceflight,which is often thought of as
perhaps the most niche, or daresay even luxurious part of space
, actually is really criticalfor scientific research as well
(11:05):
as economic opportunity, in waysthat I didn't realize at the
time I started my astronauttraining.
I knew it in the shallow but notin the depth, because in space,
when you have the gravityvector removed, you're not under
1g of gravity anymore andyou're exposed to radiation.
In an isolated, confined,remote environment, phenomena
(11:26):
change right, so crystals growlarger and more pure, things mix
differently.
You don't have heat flow basedconvection, only forced
convection, and that means wecan do amazing research into
medicines, into mixing of newthings like concrete, into
antimicrobial devices, and thelist goes on and on, and so
being able to do that uniquescience in space is unlocking a
(11:47):
lot on earth too.
So, yeah, for those that arepurpose-driven, space is
absolutely an opportunity towork in, and for those of you
that are working internationallyin other areas, know that
working internationally is goodfor you as a whole person as
well as your career.
Despite the challenges, I thinkI would never change that.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
So what does it take to be an astronaut?
What should you be studying now?
Do you have to be a scientistor an engineer?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, I remember when I was at Airbus in Stevenage in
the thermal team we hiredsomeone from a biscuit factory.
He brought such good ideas likea thermal engineer making
biscuits right.
And I've heard of people from astory of someone from SeaWorld
being hired into SpaceX right,because they knew how to use
valves in a really creative wayand build those kinds of systems
(12:36):
.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
What rules do you follow to help grow your career?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
I'm always a fan of pushing yourself outside your
comfort zone, of taking on tasksthat seem a bit out of reach,
because I think we're allcapable of more than we imagine
ourselves to be and I've alwaysbelieved that everything is a
product of talent, time andeffort.
Right and effort is the mostimportant.
The other two things just makeit faster or more efficient.
So if you're reallypurpose-driven and love
(13:02):
something and you're willing towork at it, you can get there.
And for me, when I first got towork on the analysis of part of
a space mission, and then acomponent, and then a subsystem,
and then a mission, and then anindustry, and now be an
astronaut each one of thosethings I was like I've made it.
And I was like oh's more to do.
And you know, you just keepgoing and going and I remember
(13:23):
early in my career being quiteintimidated when I felt like I
was very far from being thesmartest in the room, if I was
the least experienced in theroom and the most unsure.
And the more experienced I'vegot as an engineer, the more
willing I am to ask thepotentially silly question,
because I have no shame in it,because my goal is now to
(13:44):
understand.
If you hide the question youdon't progress.
And you know, on astronauttraining, in the classroom there
were usually six of us asstudents.
You needed to understand, soyou just ask the silly question,
right, Even if there's camerasin there.
You need to get the knowledgeand so to do that you need to
really quickly build thatpsychological safety in your
team to progress that.
(14:05):
But yeah, for me, I mean Ithink that Obviously I've had a
few stage changes, the biggestone being from space engineer to
astronaut.
But I'm lucky that the spacepart of my career continues when
you're between big trainingblocks.
You've pretty much used yourexperience from your original
(14:26):
day job as an astronaut to keepmoving forward.
And on the astronaut training welearned so much.
We learned a lot about sciencebecause we're scientists in the
sky, the hands, the eyes, theears of scientists on the ground
.
We're medical guinea pigs, sowe learned how to do medical
tests on each other and others.
We did all the expeditions likewinter survival, ocean survival
(14:48):
.
We went in parabolic flight,vomit comets and zero-g planes.
We did scuba diving to learnhow to do the first learnings
about spacewalks in simulatorsto fly the robotic arm.
We even had to learn a foreignlanguage, space history and
policy.
It was really wonderful becauseI love learning and I love
ideas and this was just a greatway to do that.
(15:10):
It's part of a great teamatmosphere and to do that for
the first time representingAustralia, makes me so excited.
Now I've come home to use thatknowledge to try and unlock the
ability for more Australians tobe involved in human spaceflight
Maybe one day even moreAustralian astronauts, because
imagine what that would do forour country.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
What challenges did you face on your path to
becoming Australia's firstastronaut?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I only had a few weeks notice that I was actually
going to be an astronaut beforeI started training there.
So my head was absolutelyspinning.
And, you know, I arrived at theEuropean Astronaut Centre,
which is near Cologne, on thefirst day and they had all of
our class time to arrivetogether.
And when we entered the bigentrance hall, we had, you know,
up on the first day and theyhad all of our class time to
(15:56):
arrive together.
And when we entered the bigentrance hall, we had, you know,
up on the screen next to thishuge ISS International Space
Station model.
It said welcome home.
And it kind of felt like thatbecause I'd been away from
Europe, you know, four years andI was coming back to not the
same place that was my home, butto part of my former life in
the European space industry.
(16:16):
And waiting for us as we walkedthrough the doors in that
entrance hall was so many of theESA, the European Space Agency
existing astronauts and retiredastronauts and it was really
kind of overwhelming becausethey are, you know, astronauts
that I had looked up to for mywhole career.
You know, I'd read a lot oftheir biographies, um, and they
(16:37):
were welcoming us as peers andit was like, okay, our life is
changing now, like you could seethat that shift starting to
occur, but quickly enough.
You know you're so busy, yeah,you barely have time to step
back and take a breath and andreflect.
Um, so you know just thelogistics of moving country.
We're tough with two kids and ahusband.
But hats off to my husband.
(16:58):
He took on the hard stuff there, but for me I think it was hard
to pace myself.
We had over 300 instructors inthe 13 months we were trained
and every one of them was anexpert in their field and would
hunt down the answer to anyquestion you had and they'd put
in, you know, hundreds of hoursfor each of their lessons.
(17:19):
So they were spectacular andyou just have to sometimes just
stop and keep energy for thenext class and not go down every
rabbit hole, not do everythingto perfection, because
eventually you won't be able tokeep that up, because eventually
you won't be able to keep thatup.
And it's really good practicefor being in space, which
missions are usually six monthsnow, meaning that it's a
marathon, not a sprint.
So having those self-careprinciples, which is one of the
(17:44):
principles we learn about in thehuman behavior and performance
module we have, which I think issimilar to the op team.
Where you look at.
You know there's aninternational space station
human behavior and performancemodel.
You can Google one of the oldversions.
It's good reading and that takesyou through things like
self-care, which for me issomething that at times in my
career I have not respected.
You know, I'm sure a lot of ushave burnt the candle at both
(18:06):
ends a lot, but you know it'simportant that you know rest.
You rest enough to work well,not work hard enough to deserve
a rest, because in space, if youmess up at the wrong time,
because you're tired at a timewhen it's non-optimal to be
tired and you might not knowwhen that is, then there are big
consequences.
So yeah, that was somethingthat I had to learn and on top
(18:27):
of that, learning Russian.
That was hard.
I'm not a language person and Ihad to put in a lot of extra
effort from day one on that andI was so happy when I got
through it and I was like, great, I might actually pass this
thing.
Now I've got through thatmodule.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Your astronaut training seems to be pretty
rigorous, so was there anythingthat surprised you in the
training that you hadn'tanticipated?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Not really, because I had studied so much in the
selection what I was going to beexpecting.
I'd like speed read everybiography I could find to
understand what I'd be in for.
But what did surprise me in areally positive way was how, in
the European Space Agencyastronaut training, we were not
competitive at all, not even inpersonality.
(19:10):
So we were, you know, informedreally early in the training.
Your flight are not competingagainst each other.
The decisions are made aremultifactorial.
If you get through the training, you've all got every chance to
progress well.
So back each other through thetraining.
You'll each have differentstrengths and weaknesses.
(19:31):
We all came from totallydifferent backgrounds.
The two of us were engineers,one more aero, with a bit of
space myself space.
There was an astrophysicist, aneuroscientist, a helicopter
test pilot and a doctor, and weall had multiple kind of
second-level careers as well.
And how can you compareyourself in medical training to
someone that's a doctor?
You can't compare.
(19:51):
So you just help each other outand get along with it.
And so that camaraderie we hadwas fantastic, and that's not
something that I had expected.
I thought it would be fun butcompetitive, and so, yeah, that
was one of the best parts of itwas going through it together
and now cheering each other on.
Two of my class have alreadybeen assigned missions, which is
awesome, and we're all soexcited for them.
(20:11):
Them, and I look forward toseeing the others go up too.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
What key things would you like our audience to take
away from this episode?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Dream big for yourself, whatever your dreams
may be like for yourself, yourcommunity, your world.
And as you do that, you know,do it because you love the
journey, not just thedestination, and write your own
story on your way there.
There's lots of many, there'smany, many ways to get to a goal
(20:39):
that you know.
You have dreams that becomegoals, that become actions, and
so just pursue that withouthesitation if you think it's
something worth doing.
I'd also say keep going tonetworking events like this one.
Building an understanding ofwhat's happening within a
broader network, as well aspeople in your workplace, is a
(21:00):
way to see opportunities andsolutions to problems that you
might not have realised existed.
Yeah, they'd be my two mainpoints.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Thank you so much for speaking with us today,
catherine.
You can learn more about herwork at the Australian Space
Agency at spacegovau.
Thank you to Catherine.
Engineers Australia andFrankious is available at
digitallycuriousai.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Until next time, we invite you to stay digitally
curious.
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