Marriage: Forgiveness, Communication, and Needs in Relationships

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Pastors Larry and Lorrie Russell share transformative insights from their 42-year marriage and decades of helping couples through Shepherd's Heart Ministry, focusing on forgiveness, communication, and emotional safety.

• True communication requires being "quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry"
• The "10-10" method allows each spouse five minutes of uninterrupted speaking while the partner actively listens
• Unforgiveness is like holding the rope of a ringing bell—when you let go, the sound gradually fades
• Five-step forgiveness process: express hurt, forgive specific actions, forgive yourself, ask God's forgiveness, and bless the person
• Remember you're not fighting your spouse but the enemy behind them—you're allies, not enemies
• Identify your emotional "air, water and food"—the non-negotiable needs you must have in relationship
• Love means "doing what's best for you even if it's hard for me"
• Follow God's priority structure: relationship with God first, spouse second, children third, ministry fourth
• Safety is the entry point to intimacy—create a space where both partners can be vulnerable without fear

For blended family resources, reach out to Shepherd's Heart Ministry at [e-mail] or call 303-884-8030.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
What's going on everybody?
It's Pastor Jay and Tiffany.
Here.
We are live and ready to go inon our Dimensions podcast here.
We are so excited to have allyou all with us here today and
we've got a great show that'scoming up.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
We do.
I can't wait till we bring onour guests.
I mean, we were just thelaughter.
I wish we could tell the story.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
I'm sure they will.
They won't mind.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
We don't have any pictures, but we can definitely
tell them.
We don't have any pictures, butI'm telling everybody.
It is a phenomenal story thatis going to make you laugh.
So I'm hoping, I'm hoping theywill let us tell the story.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
They don't care, they don't care.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
We don't have any pictures to show, but we'll have
to give them that in a minute,but I'm telling you it is funny.
I'm telling you it is funny.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Well, that's what makes marriage great is you got
to be able to laugh.
You're going to cry, you canhave some ups, you can have some
downs, but you got to make itthrough it all.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
You better laugh, because if you don't laugh,
you're going to cry.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
You're going to cry.
That's right.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Sometimes I feel like crying everybody, but I am
going to laugh.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
I choose joy, choose joy, yeah I choose joy, choose
joy that's right.
Where's your bracelet?
Where's mine?
Um, I don't know where's yours.
She got me these choose joybracelets, but you know, I guess
the joy went out the window.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Huh, at least on our wrist everybody that's right, so
yeah so that's good.
So I'm excited about the, thetwo guests that we have coming
up.
We've known well, you've knownthem for a lot longer than I
have 20, it'll be 20, it's 24years this september.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Okay that I've known them, uh, a lot longer than I
have.
How long have you?
It'll be 20, it's 24 years ofSeptember that I've known them.
They've been coverings in ourministry.
They have been marriage mentorsto us.
We haven't always had it theway we have it now.
Even in our ups and downs theygot us through some difficult
times, I was the one who had ittogether.
She had it together.
But you know, y'all stretchyour hands that way and just

(01:46):
pray for this woman right now,in the name of Jesus, stand in
the gap for her, cause she needsa little prayer right now.
She needs a little help, y'all.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Listen, I do.
I need prayer.
Fill me up so I can pray foryou See what we got to do.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
You got to get some B-roll to show you all what
happens after the cameras go off.
I tell people all the timeabout you.
I said, listen, if you offendsomebody, you want to offend me.
You don't want to offend herbecause underneath, that jacket.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
There's a blade and a nine millimeter.
People are going to reallythink.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
She's got both.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
They're going to really think that I have, that I
come packing.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
She does.
There's a switchblade underthat coat and a nine.
So that's why I'm never afraid,because I know when I'm with
you.
You got my back.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Well, I'm just going to plead the fifth on that.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
I'm not going to say anything else.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
I did have to protect myself.
I do have to protect myselfsometimes.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, I don't want to talk about my cut cone knives.
I'm going to leave that alone.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Let's not go there.
I'm gonna leave that alone.
I'm gonna stick on thescripture.
In the scripture, you knowwhere the word of god says that
the lord will fight for me andall we have to do is keep silent
and I'm gonna stand on that.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Love covers a multitude of sins and a
multitude of cut cone knives,but I'm gonna leave that alone.
We ain't gonna go there, butyou On the real though our
guests are phenomenal.
They've been in our life formany years.
I've known them since, as amatter of fact, I flew the first
time to Denver to meet them intheir ministry.
They were the executive pastorsthere In 2001,.

(03:16):
I flew two weeks after 9-11.
It was the first time I everflew in my life.
I never felt more safe and moreprotected, because I'll tell
you what everybody was goingthrough TSA differently after
two weeks of that.
So I flew what was called Firein the Rockies, the Bishop
Dennis Leonard ministry, andthey had, like all these pastors
conferences and stuff that theyhad in the middle of that Fire
in the Rockies conference.
So they had great speakers andmusic and then what happened is

(03:37):
a gentleman, pastor Elvin, who'sgoing to be on later on.
I was just out at his churchabout a month ago speaking out
there.
He introduced me to theministry where Bishop Dennis
Leonard the late great BishopDennis Leonard at Heritage
Christian Center, and came inthere and I heard Pastor Russell
ministering on Five StarMinistry and I said, man, I was
like 20 some years old, early20s, pastoring a church.

(03:58):
I said, man, I need somebodylike that in my life.
So I went to him.
So I want you to be my mentor.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
And he's been with me ever since, since 2001, 2002,
somewhere around there that wemade it official and he still
stuck with you.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
He still stuck with me.
Great story about this man ofGod as well.
I remember I went through areal dark time in 2004.
And I remember he came up tothe ministry and it was the
first time I really had thistype of relationship with
somebody and he really justopened up his heart and I sat
down and I said listen, I'mafraid that if you see
everything about me, you'llleave me and I forget.
We were at Applebee's and I'msitting in, I'm looking across
the table at him.
He said listen, no matter whathappens, you're stuck with me.

(04:33):
And 25 years later, almost 25years, he's still here and he's
even on the podcast today.
So really excited to have them.
And they're such great couplesthey're.
They're phenomenal people.
They co-founded together.
Shepherd's heart ministry was aministry to hurting pastors.
They don't charge pastorsanything to minister.
Matter of fact, I didn't knowthis.

(04:54):
I was their first person thatthey brought in.
I was the guinea pig, but youknow what, If I'm the guinea pig
and I'm still here 25 yearslater, it works.
So, listen, if you'restruggling ministry, they
brought me out.
I was actually staying rightdown the street from the at the
time the Denver Broncosquarterback that was there.
There was this beautifulmansion that they had me stay in
with these people and they justministered and poured into me

(05:15):
and they don't charge pastorsanything.
They're over in Israel, They'vebeen out in Canada I forgot all
the other places, places andthey just travel around
ministering to pastors andmarriages and that's why we
wanted to bring them on to talkto them about marriages today,
Cause I think it's going to bereally good.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, you know what?
They are an awesome couple andI feel like they are a force to
be reckoned with in the kingdom.
Um, I'd love to ask them thisquestion, though Did they ever
look at the phone, their phone,and see us?

Speaker 1 (05:40):
on the caller ID.
They didn't want nothing to dowith us.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
No.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Because, listen.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
They helped us through some hard times.
They saw that smoke coming offthat phone.
They didn't want nothing to dowith that.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
They use that statement nowadays.
They don't want that smoke.
They didn't want that smokebetween us, but they got us here
.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
It gets real, everybody it gets real.
It is so real, I'm telling youright now.
It's so real, I'm telling youright now, but yeah, so why
don't you?

Speaker 1 (06:04):
let's bring them on.
Well, pastors, larry and Laura,so glad to have you.
Let's bring them on with ustonight.
So good to have you guys withus all the way from Denver
Colorado.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
God bless you guys there.
I just I want to know theanswer, though I want to know
the answer.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
I think they're on mute.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
Are they still on mute?
Let's see, can you hear us?
Oh now, yeah, you're good nowyeah so we can hear us.
Okay now, yes, we can we canhear you right.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
Well, we started answering when you got that
burner phone and we didn't knowwho it was.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Those are rough times those you, you two, helped us
through some crazy, crazy times.
You know, I can look back andI'm like wow.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
You know people say, if it had not been for the Lord
and I put down and the Russells,where would we be?

Speaker 2 (07:00):
They know us in and out and they're still here,
they're still here with us.
And you guys are still here.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
We are.

Speaker 4 (07:09):
Right, that's pretty exciting, like what you said,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
After all the years A week and a half ago was 13
years for us, so we made it 13years, by the grace of God.
A whole lot of laughter, but,honestly, though, that's what
makes them qualified.
Ladies and gentlemen, I reallywant you to tune into them.
They're going to be talkingabout blended families and a lot
of things.
You know, one of the thingsthat you guys kind of mentioned
right from the jump was well,matter of fact, before we get
into that, we want to do oursegment.

(07:34):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
I like to get right into it.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, no doubt.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
OK, go ahead.
You set it up All right.
Well, pastors, are you ready togo into, would you?

Speaker 2 (07:54):
rather we're ready.
All right, that's good, Allright.
So first question and it wouldbe great if you both answer
First question would you rathernever age?

Speaker 4 (08:12):
mentally or physically.
Mentally or physically.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
I would say, I would prefer mentally, I would never
age mentally.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Okay, and then why, pastor Lori?
Is there any reason?

Speaker 4 (08:25):
The scripture says we're going to fade, we're going
to grow old with things thatstop working.
I would rather have my mind.
Yes, I would rather be able tohave my mind, the mental state
to be able to just be able tocommunicate, to be able to do
things, be able to love mychildren, grandchildren,

(08:47):
great-grandchildren.
All of that I'd rather have themental, mental.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
All right, good, good .

Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yeah, I'd rather age mental too, and then the body
can just kind of fall offwhenever it's ready.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
Good boy, they're the sexiest 70-year-, 70 years, but
they sure are dumb, they can'tremember their name.
I mean, what would you pick?

Speaker 1 (09:18):
what I think I was.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
I was trying to know the questions.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
I was like you know what I would pick the opposite,
what you do.
So if you do the mind, I'll dothe body, and vice versa, and
then you'll be one whole right.
You know what I would pick theopposite of what you do.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
So if you do the mind , I'll do the body, and vice
versa, and then you'll be onewhole right.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
That's really good.

Speaker 4 (09:32):
I hadn't thought about that.
What's?

Speaker 1 (09:33):
that Pastor Laura.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
I said that's really good, I hadn't thought about
that, because you'll become oneright, that's right.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Well, we always talk about like with her, like she
can't hear anything, but she cansmell a mile, a million miles
away.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
So we make a great team.
I will smell what's coming.
He will hear what's coming.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
That's right, there you go.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yes, all right.
Number two would you rather andthis is a fun one would you
rather wear sweatpants for therest of your life or have to
wear sparkles on everything?

Speaker 3 (10:12):
Sweat Hands down.
Yeah right, so you don't wearsparkles on everything.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
I don't wear sparkles anytime.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
Well, when God delivered me from suits, it was
complete.
I gave up sparkles at the sametime.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
You know that was listen.
That was a true exorcism for me.
Double deliverance to get outof suits.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
It took me a while, but you like wearing them,
though sometimes Jackets, but Idon't wear.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
When's the last time you seen me in a full suit,
except for like, maybe?

Speaker 2 (10:42):
a few when you went to a church that you had to wear
a full suit.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Exactly.
Which was what's that?
Pastor Alvin's?
The Pastor Alvin's, I think?
Yep, Pastor Alvin's.
That's the only time I everwore one in like forever.
Pastor Russell helped me getdelivered from the suits, that's
hilarious.
That is hilarious.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Oh my goodness, no sparkles, all right.
So would you rather give upyour night's sleep and resolve
an issue, or go to bed andresolve it in the morning?

Speaker 4 (11:14):
I'd rather.
I'd rather give up the night'ssleep like we have before.
Really, we'll stay up till twoin the morning, and actually
this happened a couple of monthsago, where we had an issue that
we needed to work through.
We stayed up till 2 am.
We finally got there, we did it, we prayed together, we went to

(11:37):
bed.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
You bet, well, just to be real, we probably need to
stay up till 2 am tonight.
She's funny y'all.
She got joy, so I'm so glad.
I am so glad that you said that.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
See, I'm a little bit different, so I would rather
sometimes step away from anissue.
I'd rather step away becausesometimes you know you guys got
how many years you've beenmarried now 42.
42.
I mean you got 30 more yearsthan we do.
So I mean you're like triplemore of what we have.
And sometimes I think steppingaway from an issue and getting

(12:15):
up in the morning you're fresh,you know if you can deal, that.
You have the stamina and havethe skills to be able to work
through it.
But sometimes the more you stayin there, the worse it gets,
and sometimes you don't stayconsistent with what you need to
do and so now the gloves comeoff.
People start saying things theydon't want to say.
People get frustrated.
You stop listening, you know.
So I mean there's no sensestaying up.

(12:35):
And then it turns and you bothwake up.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
You wake up in the morning but it's because, you
got a cut coach out, so he won'ttell you that oh my gosh pastor
larry.
What about you?

Speaker 3 (12:46):
well, we do have a rule that that if we get into
conflict, either one of us canit can call a timeout timeout,
and so we can say I want to timeout for one hour.
At the end of one hour I canask for a second, and at the end
of two I can ask for a third.
But after, after three, we haveto talk.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
Because for me, I I want to get it processed and so
I can respond immediately.
Lori needs to go away and thinkabout it ponder it, get in her
hula hoop that she talks about.
Talk to God about it Once shetalks to Jesus.
It's a pretty easy road afterthat.
So now I tell her go talk toJesus, otherwise it can happen.

(13:31):
Lori then can solve it all withherself and with the Lord and
all of that, and she's just OK,and I'm not, and so she could
just go on forever, and sothat's why we have it at the end
of three hours, we have to talk.
So that's why we have it at theend of three hours, we have to
talk.
Or, as you said, another ruleis is that if either one of us
postpone something, that theperson who postpones has to

(13:53):
bring it up.
So if.
I say to Lori you know I reallycan't talk about this tonight,
I'm just my mind's not there.
But I'll talk to you at seveno'clock tomorrow night.
At 7 o'clock tomorrow nightit's my responsibility to bring
it up, not for her to come andsay you said you would talk at 7
.

Speaker 4 (14:11):
Right, there's always a time zone, yeah, so it just
doesn't get swept under the rugand you never talk about it
again.
But I think the important thingis what do you agree on doing
Staying up until 2 am to solvethat issue or are we both just
exhausted and we need to?
We need to get some sleep andprocess that and then come back

(14:33):
together tomorrow morning yeah,either one of us have to pull a
time out in that situation rightyou know what I found out too,
obviously, in the years thatI've talked with you guys and
you've talked with us atdifferent times.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
I have found out, too , something you said a while
that I've talked with you guysand you've talked with us at
different times.
I have found out, too,something you said a while ago,
pastor Lori.
You said go to the throne andthen to the phone and we call
you guys here and there andwhatever.
And hey, we got to walk throughthis, and one of the things I
realized is nobody can replacewhat God's DNA is for your
marriage.
You can glean from people, butthere's some things that I've
realized.

(15:04):
God said I'm not going to blessyour marriage until you do what
I called you to do, and eventhough it may have worked, it
doesn't mean that you discardwhat other people share with you
.
But there's some things thatGod reserves for himself that
you have to figure out whatworks for you, and that's why I
like what you just said aboutyou have to agree upon it.
So you've got to figure outwhat works for you and we can
glean from other people.
There were certain times I wasdoing certain things that you

(15:25):
guys wanted us to do and I wastrying to work those things and
it just wasn't working.
It wasn't that your advicewasn't right, because your
advice was good, but there werethings that I, that God wanted
me to do, that he gave mepersonally, and when I did those
things it unlocked things inour marriage.
So I just want to share that I,our marriage.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
So I just want to share that I know we're not kind
of going in on it right yet,but we're kind of segueing right
into it.
Yeah, I mean and I think thisis the communication piece that
we're talking about that I thinkyou know it gets it's.
It becomes problematic for somany couples, you know, in the
beginning, in the middle.
In the end, I think they're.
You know, what you talked aboutis having a plan, so I'm so
glad that you're mentioning that, because I think that's what

(16:02):
people need.
People need a plan.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, they do, and that's what you guys have always
given to us.
You've given us some things andthere's things you can glean,
but you always said that to us,pastor Laura.
You said make sure you go tothe throne first and then come
to the throne.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah, and I think that that's why Larry loves when
I go in my hula hoop, becausethat's my hula hoop, is my time
alone with the Lord, and a lotof times, what God shows us in
those times with him, before weeven talk, is what was my
contribution to this issue thatjust happened between the two of
us?
Was I feeling fearful?

(16:36):
Was I threatened by that?
Was I jealous of that?
You know what just happenedwith me, lord, and nobody knows
us better than he knows ourhearts, right.
And so a lot of times when I goto the throne, first he'll tell
me what my contribution was tothat particular, and then I can

(16:56):
go to Larry and we can discussthat and we can talk about it,
and so I think that that's I'malways real clear.
I always want to point peopleto the Lord first.
He's got the answers.
He speaks our language.
He's the one that is probablythe most gentle with us in
rebuking us, in convicting us,in guiding and directing us.

(17:19):
He knows us better than we evenknow ourselves.
So, why not start there and thencome here?

Speaker 3 (17:26):
Well, and one of the real keys to communication is
scripture says be quick tolisten, slow to speak and slow
to become angry and I thinkthere are certain personalities
that it's a thought mouth.
There are certain personalitiesthat you hear something, you
process information, it goesthrough a set of filters and
then it comes out okay.

(17:47):
But there are certainpersonalities that don't have
those filters and so they hearsomething and then it's thought
and mouth and what that does bygoing apart and taking some time
, it puts a time to put a filterin that so that you can process
through.
Were you really reallylistening?
I?

(18:07):
I think one of the biggestproblems we have in marriage is
we don't listen very well.
We get angry first and then wespeak and we might listen at
that point, but by then most ofthe damage has been done already
done we get.
Really, we do something called a10-10.
And a 10-10 is where you wouldtake five minutes you have.
Whatever the problem is, lauriecould talk for five minutes.

(18:31):
I can't respond, I can'tinterrupt, I can't say my side
of it.
I have to sit and actuallylisten and the only thing that I
can say is tell me more aboutthat or ask a question about it.
But it can't rebut my mind,can't be on drive and I'm
formulating my answer whilethey're talking.

(18:51):
I have to really be listeningand then, after that, five
minutes, or you can do it 10 and10 or five and five.
Then I get to talk and I cantalk about what it looks like
from behind my eyes and she hasto listen.
In the same way.
It forces listening.
It's amazing what happens whenyou become an active listener.

(19:12):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Well, no, I was just saying in all transparency.
See, you guys didn't answer thephone for us, so we just
decided to bring you onDimensions phone for us, so we
just decided to bring you onDimensions.
This is really why you're here.
We can get direct ministryCounseling sessions live.

(19:36):
But you know, I was going toask, you know, in your years of
marriage counseling, what do youthink like the biggest or one
of the biggest stumbling blockswithin that communication sect
has been, and how would you, youknow, how do you tell people to
deal with that?
How do you resolve with thatbig stumbling block?

Speaker 4 (19:58):
With the communication.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
Communication yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
Well, excuse me, I think actually that that
learning the lesson is is one ofthe one of the things and I
think something that Laurie saidjust a few minutes ago is it's
absolutely it has to happen andthat is in any situation.
What are my contributions tothe failure of what's going on

(20:24):
right now?

Speaker 4 (20:25):
That's the first question.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
And the second question what am I going to the
failure of what's going on rightnow?
That's the first question.
And the second question what amI going to do about it?
Because if we keep doing thesame thing over and over, over
and over, expect a differentoutcome.
You know what that is.
That's crazy, but the other oneis listening with your motor
running.
I think that one is becausewe're not really listening.

(20:45):
I'm back to the listening thingagain, but so often and I'm
guilty of this I was guilty ofthis, I don't know, a couple of
weeks ago we were talking aboutsomething or another and and
Lori was trying to tell me whatshe trying to get me to listen
to how she was feeling, and Iwas actually.
I was interrupting her andgiving my side of the thing and

(21:08):
then, when we finished, I satback and I thought, man, I
wasn't listening because Iwanted to tell my side of the
story.
Really bad.

Speaker 4 (21:18):
And.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
I went to the bedroom where she was and I just sat
down and I said you know, I'msorry I wasn't listening and I
said start again, and what shecould have said.
I'm too hurt, I'm not going todo it.
But she started the talk andthen I listened and it was an
empathic kind of listening.
One more thing.
I think there's another thingtoo.

(21:38):
I lost my hearing in Israel.
We were there one year and Ilost it 100% in this year and
30% in that year Wow.
And it was gone about eightweeks and Lori was really
encouraging.
She was telling me the Lord'sgoing to heal you, you're going
to get past this.
I didn't realize it right then,but later on I realized it and

(22:00):
I came back to her and I saidyou know what?
I didn't need to hear that.
I know all that.
I needed you to hear that.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
I'm afraid, I'm afraid.

Speaker 4 (22:11):
I'm afraid.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
I'm never going to hear again Implications that
could have inside of me, and Ithink our listening has to have
an extra dimension to it.
We have to hear what's reallygoing on, wow, here, underneath
the facts.
What are you feeling about that?
And it is so often it's, I'mafraid, and we're afraid to say,

(22:38):
because somebody's going to saydon't be afraid.
God says fear, not 365 times inthe Bible, so you're not
supposed to be afraid.
He says be anxious for nothing,so don't be anxious anymore.
And all of those are truepromises.
That's not what people need tohear from us a lot of times, or
we need to hear what they'rereally saying underneath.

Speaker 4 (23:00):
I think one of the things that we need to remember
is that we're not enemies, we'reallies.
And a lot of times I think thatpeople they have the motive of,
or they have the underlyingthought of I need to win, I need
to defend, I need to justify,rather than being solution

(23:21):
oriented about a particularissue or a problem that's
happening in their relationship.
And I think that if we can, ifwe can remember, if we can
emotionally remember, becausewhen we start to get in conflict
, you know all those hormones,everything starts going
everywhere.
We just need to remember thatthis is not our enemy, that's

(23:44):
right.
Harry is my ally, I am his ally,and we don't fight.
Remember that this is not ourenemy, that's right.
Gary is my ally, I am his ally,and we don't fight flesh and
blood.
Right, we know who we fight andwe know who we're fighting
behind the scenes.
And I think that it's really,really important if we can just
have those senses about us toknow that we want to be solution
oriented.
We want to come up with asolution, but we want to be
heard and understood.
We want to come up with asolution, but we want to be

(24:06):
heard and understood.
We want to listen, we want tobe understood with what's
happening and then go tosolution.
Because I think that that's soimportant, because a lot of
people will they might talk,talk, talk, talk, talk, but they
never stop, they never resolve,and then what happens is it
comes up again and so you neverresolve.
And so if we can be solutionoriented, I think that that's
probably one of the things incommunication that I think would

(24:29):
be important.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
What is you guys' advice in regards to that?
Say, for example, someone'stalk, talk, talk, talk doesn't
move on.
How do you make sure they'rebeing heard, not interrupting
them, allowing them to finish?
But there has to come a pointwhere you move on into the
solution.
How do you navigate that?
How do you guys do that?
Or what would be your advice topeople?

Speaker 3 (24:47):
Let me hit an intermediate place there.
Zori and I first met.
We had traveled a lot withother people and so we decided
we wouldn't go somewhere.
We've been with someone else.
And so we went to Cancun, andthat was okay.
But we decided to go to Cozumel.
She had been there with aboyfriend Name is Billy Lots of

(25:09):
good Billy stories and so wewere laying on a beach in
Cozumel and it was just one ofthose things.
Lori turned around and said Iwas right there with Billy.

Speaker 4 (25:22):
Thought and health right.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
Wow, just like a dagger in my heart, and she
couldn't figure out why.
That bothered me.
And I tried and she tried tolisten, and I tried and she
tried to listen Most of thenight, most of the next day and
about 1 o'clock in the morningshe said something I said you

(25:44):
got it, you got, got it, Ididn't need her to do anything.
I didn't need her to changeanything.
I just needed her to hear andunderstand, yeah and I think our
goal has to be being heard, butthat's not enough, just because
the conventional wisdom is sayit back.

(26:05):
What I'm hearing is you can,you can pare it back the words,
but you may not get theunderstanding.
Even the scripture says aboveall, seek go after wisdom, but
above all seek understanding.
That has to be our goal as thelistener is to be able to stay

(26:26):
with it until I understand whatit is you're saying.
Don't pick you apart for whatyou're saying.
Stay in it until I reallyunderstand where you're coming
from, and then we can go tosolution.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, that's good.
You know, Pastor Lori, Iremember and correct me if I'm
wrong, but I think years ago youshared with me when I called
you.
One of those times you saidthat whenever you get into
conflict with your husband, youare imagining the enemy behind
him.
Was that you?
Well, yeah I've actually I'vesaid that before.

(27:06):
I don't know if it was me thatsaid it to you, but yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (27:08):
The enemy is right back there whispering in your
ear.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
He's, he's just trying to tantalize you, um,
because that's not who you're,but that's not who you're
fighting that's right and Ithink you made a great point
because I think it's soimportant to know really who
you're fighting and to reallyvalue the unity that is between
you two.
Excuse me, you know, sometimeswhen you hit and you're hitting

(27:32):
in marriage consistently, Ithink that head of unforgiveness
can rise up.
Can you talk a little bit aboutjust how that can really damage
the relationship when you arestaying in a place of
unforgiveness and not reallyforgiving your spouse and moving

(27:53):
on?

Speaker 4 (27:54):
That is so important.
Go ahead.

Speaker 3 (27:57):
Well, what really motivates me is the Bible says
what Jesus was talking, and itwas right after he taught his
disciples how to pray, and inthere the verse says forgive
your trespasses as you forgivethose who trespass against you.
And then Jesus said the verynext verse after that.

(28:19):
I think he needed to clarifythat prayer, and what he said
was if you don't forgive, myFather in heaven won't forgive
you.
That's massive, and I'm nottrying to theologically impact
this, but you can go to Mark,chapter 11, and it says when you
stand praying, forgive,intimating that your prayers
might not be heard.

(28:40):
You go to Matthew 5, and itsays when you bring your gifts
to the altar, go and bereconciled to someone you have
unforgiveness, and then comeback and offer your gifts,
indicating it may affect yourfinances.
And finally, matthew 18 talksabout the servant that owed his

(29:02):
master a ton of money and themaster was going to sell him
into slavery.
And he forgave the debt.
And that guy went to anotherservant under him and threw him
into prison because he couldn'tpay a debt.
The master came back and saidafter I forgave you and now look
what you've done, so hereinstated the debt.

(29:23):
I don't know how you unpack that, but it would seem to me that
the Lord reserves the right toput back at your feet everything
he's forgiven you for if youdon't forgive and it sets us
free, it's us.
Yeah, the other person doesn'twin.
It sets us free because weforgive.
That load lifts off of us andit's not something that

(29:45):
somebody's trying to get us todo.
That's bad.
It gives us all the freedom inthe world.
I was the poster child.
I measured time by bad thingsthat had happened to me all the
time in my life and when Ifinally figured out how to
forgive and we have a process wewalk people through, but when I
figured out how to forgive, itset me free in an unbelievable

(30:08):
way.

Speaker 4 (30:09):
You know, and probably many of your listeners
have heard, that unforgivenessis like drinking poison
expecting the other person todie.
I think that that's reallyamazingly true, because the more
unforgiveness that we stack up,the sicker we become.
There's a lot of new researchout about what happens to the

(30:32):
body, the memory, the musclememory, and what's happening in
the body and how people are sickbecause of living in that state
of unforgiveness, and I justthink that it's so important.
And I heard the other day Ithought this was really a great
visual you know, when you, whenyou've got unforgiveness, have
you ever seen one of those big,big church bells that have the

(30:53):
rope on them?

Speaker 2 (30:54):
that's right.
Yes, so that it's so.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
So you're holding on to that unforgiveness and
because you're holding on tothat rope, but what happens is
that when you ring that bell,the bell is really, really loud,
but when you let go of the rope, what happens?
The sound becomes less and lessand less and less and less,
until you hear it no more.

(31:17):
And that's a lot of what youknow.
When you forgive someone, whathappens?
Because people say, well, I,you know, I just, I still feel
it, I still feel it.
But I feel we can think aboutthat bell and how that bell
magnifies and rings, feel it,but I feel we can think about
that bell and how that bellmagnifies and rings.
But when you let go of the rope, when you cut that rope or let

(31:37):
go of the rope and forgivesomebody, that bell will just
ring slowly but then eventuallyit will go away.
And that's really howforgiveness works, if it's true
forgiveness if you've reallyforgiven someone from the heart
works, if it's true forgiveness,if you've really forgiven
someone from your heart.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
That really does work .
I love that visual.
What do you guys say tosomebody that's holding on to
the rope?
How do you let go of it,practically speaking?
I mean a lot of times I justlet go of the rope.
But people that struggle withthat, how do you practically say
I'm gonna stop tugging on thatrope?

Speaker 3 (32:08):
and that has been their norm yeah, yeah, that's
their way of dealing with yeahsure I think one of the problems
is we take the scriptureliterally and and on the left
side of our brain, that's ourcognitive side, and so we're
obedient, and so I say I forgaveyou and I mean it, and I want

(32:28):
to walk away from it and I'mable to put it away, but all we
did was put a layer of cement onit.
And then it boils and it pops upagain and we put a bigger layer
and we've left that right sideof our brain where all of the
trauma is, where all of theemotion is.
We've left that intact, and soit's still rumbling around over

(32:50):
here.
And so we have to do somethingthat's called an episodic event.
We take this side of the brain,we connect it with this side of
the brain, the obedient side, amethod for dealing with the
pain and the trauma that we'vebeen through.
And we put that together and wehave a process for that.
We lay it in at the foot of thecross.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
But it's a process.
I'll just say it fast.
We have a person write a letterand they write a letter and
it's a mean letter.
It's everything that that otherperson has done.
They're never going to mail it,but they just they verbally
throw up on a piece of paperit's called lament.

Speaker 4 (33:27):
We see dav David throughout the psalms the real,
you know.
Destroy my enemies.
Do this, you know.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
And the second part of the letter is and then you
just kind of just take a breathand now I forgive you.
I forgive you for this.
You put it in categories forthis, for this, for this, for
this.
And then the third part of theletter is I say, Larry, I
forgive you for carrying thisaround for so long and allowing
it to mess up your life.

(33:56):
The next part is now Lord Jesus, I ask that you forgive me.
You told me to forgive and Ihaven't been obedient.
And the fifth part of the letteris and now I bless you, Now
that I've forgiven you.
I bless you in the followingways, and the last part of the
letter is Now that I've forgivenyou, I bless you in the
following ways and the last partof the letter is now that I've

(34:16):
forgiven and been forgiven, mylife will be different in the
following ways.
And then what we do is we justhave something called an empty
chair and they take that personand set them in a chair and I
read them the letter, and it'sjust three sentences in.
They're there, and you let allthe emotion come out.
And when you finish with it,then you just stop and then you

(34:38):
look at them again and say now Iforgive you, I forgive you for
this and this.
Then I put me in the chairLarry, I forgive you for messing
up your life and not gettingthis out.
And then it's a prayer LordJesus, Heavenly Father, hey,
forgive me, you gave me theroute I haven't taken it.
Just ask that you forgive me.

(35:00):
And then now I feel likeblessing you.
I bless you in the followingways and then now what's the
action part of this?
How?

Speaker 4 (35:08):
have I forgiven and been forgiven.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
How is this going to change my life?
And then, so you think, what ifI can't be a victim anymore?
What does that mean to me?
You know I have to.
If, uh if, the man at the poolof bethesda, you know, jesus,
asked him and he said do youwant to be healed?
He didn't answer him, he justsaid there's no one here to put

(35:31):
me in the water.
Angel trouble, trouble thewaters.
But he never answered thequestion.
He didn't say yes, I would liketo, or no.
And that's the question Do youwant to be healed?
Because it's going to requiresomething from you.
If you let that unforgivenessgo, it's taking the brain,

(35:51):
connecting it to this side ofthe brain, and then the last
thing we have them do is burnthe letter.
And it's writing, it gets itout saying, it, gets it out
reading it, takes it away.
And it's a miracle, it's anabsolute miracle of what God
does in the life of that person.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
I think it's important that people understand
.
Pastor Jay, you asked you knowwhat if someone doesn't want to
forgive?
That's a really good questionbecause we need to really search
deep within.
What is the cost of forgiving?
What is it that we have to giveup to forgive?
Does it level the playing field?

(36:30):
You know, do I just have to beright and I just want to give up
vengeance and I can't do thatanymore?
What is the reason for notforgiving?
I think that's really importantthat people really search the
heart and ask the Lord.
You know, lord, what's in myheart?
That I cannot forgive thisperson Because there's something

(36:50):
creating that barrier for aperson not being able to forgive
.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
You know that's so good.
I love that you're sharing thisbecause I know that there are
people that are watching thatare in that situation, that need
that, the practical and thespiritual.
You know, pastor Larry, youshared about laying it at the
Lord's feet and I think that'sso important.
I shared with both of you too,in Denver, when we were in

(37:17):
Denver, just an area that I wasstruggling with, that God just
set me free and once you tastethat freedom, it's like wow, you
value that.
You're like, oh okay, I canstill maybe not be okay with
something, but be free and, likeyou said, pastor Larry, get to

(37:38):
a point where now you'reblessing those that are around
you and really it's thetransformative power of the Holy
Spirit that is literallyworking in your life and I think
it's amazing that is literallyworking in your life and I think
it's amazing.
I remember I was sharing withthem when we were out to lunch
that I was in my car and I saidI just realized.

(38:01):
I said wait a second, I amreally free, I am free.
I know people probably thought Iwas crazy when they drove by in
the car talking to herself.
But yeah, I mean it's such agreat feeling when you know like
in the word of God it says whomthe son sets free is free.
Indeed, and.
I just felt that freedom trulyof the Lord just flow through my

(38:26):
whole entire situation spirit.
It was just so good.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
And I think also with that freedom that you guys were
talking about.
I remember there was a seasonof my life that's one of the
areas that I don't struggleheavily in.
If it does hit me, it hits me.
I'm not usually one that holdson to things, but there was a
situation that happened in mylife and there was a guy in my
ministry and Pastor Rose I don'tknow if it was you that led me
through that, it was years ago,but I really I couldn't let it

(38:52):
go.
And then I remember when youtalked about blessing people,
something happens when you blessthe people.
I mean it's a scripturalprinciple.
You said to bless those thatcurse you to good to them.
So I mean it's one of theattitudes that God makes very
clear, but it's very difficult,but there's a power that happens
.
There's a release of grace thatcomes when you're obedient to
that.
I remember I had these ticketsto a division one basketball

(39:14):
game and God said I want you togo bless the person that dogged
you.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
And I was like, oh man, I had these great tickets I
was going to bless you with apiece of gum?

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah right, With some money, but these tickets.
I was just going to stretch myhands towards her house and just
bless the Lord and Jesus.
I got that.
No, no, no.
You said something, pastorRussell.
It's got to cost you something,you know, for Jesus to forgive
us and to get us forgiven.
It cost him his life.
Sometimes, even in letting it go, there's a cost to forgiving
people, and I think that's thepart that's really hard, is that

(39:46):
?
Well, you know, I don't want tohave to bless you, I don't want
to have to pay for what theydid, but that is salvation and
that is the love of God in itshighest form.
And I remember I went and Iblessed him and when I did that,
that's when it broke.
It didn't break.
When I cussed him out on thepaper, it didn't break.
When I prayed for him, it brokewhen I blessed him and then

(40:13):
when I didn't.
I think a lot of times, even inmarriages, a lot of times we
can get stuck.
And what I have found, even inour marriage, if I'm willing to
reach out and love on her andgive her what she wants, it
keeps my heart clean and keepsmy heart pure.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yeah, you know it's funny when you get hurt in
relationships.
I think a lot of times you wantthem to feel what you felt.
You want them to feel thatdisappointment, you want them to
feel that frustration, you wantthem to feel that hurt.
How would you minister tosomebody who is literally in

(40:44):
that position now?
They have been hurt.
You know, I always tell peopleI was talking to a group of
ladies and I said you know, it'sreally hard when you've done
the right thing, but the wrongthing gets done to you and so
you want them in return.
You don't, you're, you're kindof hesitant to forgive and to
really give until they reallygive it, until they, you really

(41:08):
feel, you feel in your heartthat they really understand how
much they hurt you, what theydid.
Or you want them to feel.
How would you minister tosomebody that is in that
position right now or maybethey're going to be in that
position that they're like no, Iam here, you don't know how bad
they hurt me.
You don't know what they did tome.

(41:28):
You know, even sometimes, asI'm in our center, you know
you'll hear different storiesabout different things.
You know that the women wentthrough.
So how would you, minister, toa woman, or a man for that
matter, that is literally rightnow in that position are going
to be.

Speaker 4 (41:45):
Well, I think that.
I think that, first of all,that person needs to be heard,
and they need to understand, butthey also need to understand
that there is a cost forforgiveness.
The other person will neverunderstand totally how badly
they've hurt you, because theyhaven't been hurt that way, they
haven't walked in your shoes.

(42:05):
They're never going tounderstand that, and so that's
one of those costs that you haveto give that up that, and so
that's one of those costs thatyou have to give that up.
You have to give that upbecause they will never
understand when Jesus washanging on the cross.
Forgive them, lord.
Forgive them, for they know notwhat they do, and it's the same

(42:26):
thing we need to forgive,because they don't know what
they've done and how badly andhow deeply it hurts, and that's
why it's lamenting is soimportant in the forgiveness
process is to cry out to theLord and to give him that pain,
because he's the only one thatcan truly heal our hearts.

(42:48):
We can cry out to him, we canshare with him how we feel.
He knows how we feel, but he'sthe only one that can mend my
broken heart.
Nobody else can so good, and sothat's why that I don't think
that anybody will everunderstand.
So the the sooner we can getthat realization of that, the

(43:10):
faster we can get through tothat total freedom, and it will
do a whole lot better that'sgood.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
That's good when we ask that question what would you
have to give up to forgive?
Yeah, and we, we, we push thatto have them answer that and we
kind of prime the pump.
Laurie's saying some of it.
The last one that that youmight have to give up is that
they'll never have to paythey'll never have to pay, and

(43:37):
you want them to pay, yeah andso I asked them what do you want
?
you want them to be beaten inthe town square, put them in
stocks, but what would satisfyyou?
And, like I said to one lady, Isaid if somebody broke your arm
, if you broke their arm, wouldyou feel better?
She said, yeah, we have to giveup the fact that they'll never

(44:07):
have to pay.
We have to give up the factthat they'll never, ever
understand how deeply they'vehurt us.
We have to understand and Lorimentioned this one we level the
playing field.
So if Lori's had an affair andI'm trying to hold her account,
I mean she's trying to hold meaccountable for something that I
did and I say, after what youdid, you want to hold me

(44:29):
accountable?
No, we level the playing field.
See, we want to hold meaccountable.
No, we level the playing field.
See, we want to hold the oldgrievances back here with the
big guns and whenever somethingcomes up, here they come, we
bring them from our wholehistory and we want to fire the
guns.
And we have to put the gunsdown, we have to lay the
ammunition down, and that's, Ithink, the first thing is, what

(44:52):
would you have to give up toforgive?

Speaker 4 (44:54):
Yeah, what do you have to give up?
What's the cost?

Speaker 3 (44:56):
And then are you willing to do that and let them
come over.
Well, I'm going to have to giveup my anger, I'm going to have
to give up and they'll just,they'll keep coming with it, and
then just that's the cost ofbeing free.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
You know another thing with that, too, that I
always look at.
When you're battling withunforgiveness, I always ask
myself two things I like toalways have.
I like to put, I like to putmercy in my mercy bank about the
blessed are those that aremerciful, for they will obtain
mercy.
So I always am looking like, ok, all right, if I'm on the other
end of this next time, or if Iam doing so, or next time I need

(45:34):
God to be merciful to me.
Can I go back and say, lord,I've been merciful.
You know, I've been merciful toother people and I was looking
at.
I want him to deal with mebecause I realize also I'm not
perfect.
You know, I've got shortcomings, I got things that I do wrong,
I've got issues in my life.
I've got, hey, you know what,and he's been so gracious.
It goes back to what you said,pastor Larry, about the man that
was forgiven.

(45:55):
Like I think it's like a $10million, but then the other guy
owed him a thousand dollars.
He grabbed him by the throatand choked it pay me what you
owe me.
And it's like geez, like wait aminute.
All that I forgive you.
So sometimes I was looking atand I realized too and that's
something that God gave me.
I shared this I think it was onSunday about how, when you

(46:15):
bless people that don't deserveit, it qualifies you for
uncommon favor, because favor isnever fair.
So when you give people whatthey don't deserve, god will
give you what you do you don'tdeserve as well, and so I'm

(46:37):
always looking for that, whetherin my marriage, whether with
people, whatever else I'm like.

Speaker 4 (46:39):
I want to store up my mercy bank so then, god, you'll
smile upon me, even when Idon't deserve it.
Those are kingdom principlesthat we don't understand in the
world, do we?
I mean we don't get that forthe most part.
Yeah, but that is just so righton that's true.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
I'm kind of like I have my firearm and I'm like
Medea, firearm.
Medea, she says, or me,whatever, peace be still.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Give me five seconds in the bathroom.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
That'll get a response really quick yeah, no
doubt um, no, but you know, inall seriousness, you know when
we're talking about what are yougiving up?
You already alluded to italready, I wrote it down, but
you're you kind of already saidit, but you, you, when you give
up those things of the flesh,when you give up the anger, when

(47:32):
you give up the the flesh, whenyou give up the anger, when you
give up the frustration, whenyou give up whatever it is.
When you give that up, you getkingdom back.
You get a kingdom.
I mean, your mind is especiallywhen you're in the word and
you're in your little hula hoop,like you would say Pastor Lori,
you get the mind of.
Christ would say Pastor Lori,you get the mind of Christ, and
then kingdom, alignment beginsto set in and there's this great

(48:02):
exchange that happens at thatpoint where now you know, you
give up that anger, now you havejoy, and the word of God says
the joy of the Lord is ourstrength, you know.
And so you get back kingdom andwith that you get back strength
.
Now you can go back, you know,after you get out of your hula
hoop, now you go back strong.
Now you go back with the rightmindset.
Now you go back with a heartthat can love and a heart that

(48:23):
is open.
So that great exchange, yeah,you give something up, and
sometimes it is hard, but I'mtelling you everybody, it's,
it's worth it.
It is worth it.
On the other side, my, myphrase lately has been if you
don't go, you won't know.
If you don't go in into thathula hoop circle, if you don't

(48:45):
go and release it, you'll neverknow what's on the other side.
And it's so much better.
What's on the other side is somuch better, isn't it though?

Speaker 3 (48:54):
yeah, it's so good.
One more piece to it.
You, you put the person thatyou haven't forgiven, uh,
squarely in charge of you theycontrol you, they're in control
they may not even know it, butif what they did to you you're
reacting to it, it it's makingyou decide to do certain things

(49:18):
and, in response to all of thepain that you've received from
them, and when you forgive them,you set that free and they're
no longer in control of you.
That's right, I was working witha lady one time and she was in
a bad relationship and she wasdisleveled and one time and she
was in a bad relationship andshe was disleveled and she was
crying and she was just a messand I had a mirror in my office

(49:43):
and I had her stand in front ofthe mirror and I said look at
you.
He doesn't even know that you'rein this kind of situation, wow,
and you have put him squarelyin charge of how you feel and
how you're adjusting andoperating, operating in the
world.

Speaker 4 (49:57):
Why are you willing to give him that much power over
you?
You remember those marionette?

Speaker 1 (49:59):
puppets strings on them, yeah, yeah that's exactly
what that's like.

Speaker 4 (50:02):
You know, all he has to do is do this right here and
he can make you dance, and soforgiveness is cutting those
strings.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
You may fall on the floor in a heap.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
You can't even set effective boundaries on someone
that you haven't forgiven.
Wow, that's good good you'retied too strongly emotionally to
them and when you can forgivethem.
You get the distance that youneed in order to be able to set
boundaries in your life wow,that's really good.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
Uh, you know what?
We've only got a few moreminutes left with you guys.
I want you guys to take aminute, uh, and share kind of
your.
You can go wherever you want togo with this.
Your top three or four thingsthat you'd give to married
couples that are the mostimportant things from each one
of you.
You both might have differentaspects to it, but whatever your
top three or four things, you'dsay, hey, these are the things

(51:06):
that are most important to havea successful relationship.

Speaker 4 (51:09):
Okay, go ahead.
You want to hit it?

Speaker 3 (51:11):
Yeah, all right, one of my most important things is
something that we call needs.
It's a way of loving each other, and I think a lot of times we
love other people the way wewant them to love us and we get
disappointed and hurt becausethey don't love us that way.
I'm trying to love them the waythat I hear love.
They're trying to love me theway that they hear love.

(51:32):
They're trying to love me theway that they hear love, and
we're just missing each other,and so it's hard to love someone
else the way that they hearlove.
And we talk about needs,something that there are certain
things that I must have in arelationship.
I may not even like that, butthere's some things that are
non-negotiable.

Speaker 4 (51:49):
We call them emotional air, water and food.
But there's some things thatare non-negotiable.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
We call them emotional air, water and food,
and it's hard for Lori to meetthose needs because that's not
her need, and so she has to loveme in the way that I hear love.
I have to love her in the wayshe hears love, and we teach
each other that.
So love boils down to I'll dowhat's best for you, even if
it's hard for me.

(52:14):
Teach me how you hear love, andI'll love you that way, not
once, but what you have to havein the relationship.
If Lori said to me you knowwe're going to be great buds,
we're going to grow old and dietogether, but I'm never going to
touch you sexually again.
I might be okay today, tomorrow, but there's going to be a day

(52:34):
I'm not okay and I might leavethe relationship if I weren't in
covenant.
Covenant keeps us there, butit's one of those things.
I know that I would either shutdown and or leave the
relationship if I weren't incovenant.
It's that important and so thenthat may not be Lori's need,
but she has to understand thatone.

(52:55):
For me she needs to be numberone, most important, cherished
and treasured.
If I don't treat her that way,she's just going to wilt and
fold up and just kind ofdisappear, because she would
either shut down and or leavethe relationship.
But she's not going to leavebecause she's in covenant, but
in this process of making arelationship work.

(53:18):
What would it be like ifsomebody loved me exactly the
way that I hear love?
Hmm, what would it be like ifsomebody, if I, loved her the
way she hears love?
Yeah, and when she taught mehow she heard love.
I'd be an absolute fool if Ididn't do it.
I'm not gonna love you that way.
No, I'd be a fool if I didn'tdo it because she gave me keys

(53:41):
to the kingdom because it is theair, the water and the food.

Speaker 4 (53:45):
It's the emotional air, water and food that.
I need to be able to survive,to be able to blossom and be all
of who God's created me to be.
So when he loves me like thatand I love him like that, can
you imagine what a contented,fulfilling relationship you
would have.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Wow, Without a doubt.
As a matter of fact, PastorRussell, something I want to
mention and we've talked aboutthis before Speak to also with
that, with needs, about how youknow a lot of times like it's
funny, a lot of time with theneed of the other person
sometimes is contrary to who youare naturally.
So you might have someonethat's saying they like physical
touch, but they were nevertouched growing up.
You have someone that wantsquality time, but they're a
loner.
You may have someone that'ssaying, hey, I like words of

(54:25):
affirmation, but they can't saymore than three words on a
regular day.
So like, how does that?
How do you like when somebodyhas to work to be at that that
the person, why doesn't it justcome naturally for you?
What do you say to that personthen?
Because they feel like, well,why did it come down?

Speaker 3 (54:42):
If you really love me , it should just come naturally.
Well, I had a lady say one guywas talking about his need and
he needs to be outdoors andrecreation and do camping and
that kind of thing.
And his wife says what, I don'tdo that.
And I smiled and said now youdo.
That's why.
That's why love is hard agapelove is very difficult, that's

(55:02):
why I'll do what's best for you,even if it's hard for me.
That's the best definition wecan put under agape love,
because this thing, we're nevergoing to find somebody.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
That's just like us yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
If we did we'd be bored to tears and in the
beginning the things thatthey're different in is really
cute, until we get married.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
And then it's not cute anymore.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
Did you see that?
Look and then we have to decideare we gonna love or not love?
Is not just the romance and allof the, the things that we see
on tv.
Those are nice and they're niceto have those.
But love is the deliberatenessof making sure that Laurie's
fulfilled in the way that shehears it.

Speaker 4 (55:53):
Well, I'll tell you what.
When you get married, yourealize how selfish you really
are, don't you?

Speaker 1 (55:57):
Amen, it's so true, yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:59):
And so what if God made marriage to make you holy
instead?

Speaker 1 (56:02):
of that's right.

Speaker 4 (56:04):
Right.
So it's something that he'sworking out in us, because when
I married Larry, I got my.
I got just this full lengthmirror of all of the things that
I needed to have the Lord workout in me, because it brings out
the worst in me, right,marriage brings out the worst
that you have to get in yourhula hoop and you have to ask

(56:26):
the Lord to help you with that,because it's about I'll do
what's best for you, even ifit's hard for me.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
Yes and covenant is the thing that holds us together
.

Speaker 4 (56:37):
Right.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
During those days when we just don't want to do it
and we're trying to get itright.
Covenant holds us there, but itcan't keep us.
That can't be the only thingthat keeps us together.
If we can't go back to lovingthe other person the way they
hear love, we're going to be twosingle people in marriage and

(57:01):
that's never going to besuccessful.
Yes, we're under the same roof,but we're not in any way.
It's not safe enough for us tobe intimate in our relationship.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
Well, that's kind of like the book you have right
Before Love Dies, right.
So I want to make sureeverybody knows to get that,
because what you're talkingabout, I believe, is all in your
book, correct All?

Speaker 3 (57:24):
of that's in there yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
I know I wanted to give you three, but I don't
think we're out of time forthree, but I'm glad about that.
That's really good.
What's your top one, pastorLaura, that you would give to
our listeners and viewers whattheir number one thing is for to
make a marriage work?

Speaker 4 (57:41):
I would say priorities.
God's priority structure andthe way that we lay that out, is
relationship with God first.
That's not what I do, it's whoI am with him, then this
relationship next.
Okay, this is what comes next.
Then, if you have smallchildren at home, it's who's
ever under the roof, the smallchildren, and then it's ministry

(58:01):
, and then it's work and friendsand family and all of that
other kind of stuff.
We get that all out of order,and friends and family and all
of that other kind of stuff.
We get that all out of order.
And we know that the oppositeof chaos, the opposite of order,
is chaos.
If we're not living in God'spriority structure, we're going
to have chaos in our lives.
And so, larry and I, thisparticular principle God's

(58:23):
priorities are on the inside ofour eyelids, they are in our DNA
.
Every decision that we makefalls in line with God's
priorities are on the inside ofour eyelids, they are in our DNA
.
Every decision that we makefalls in line with God's
priorities and because that'sthe way that we want to live.
And so it's relationship withGod first, this, second, our
young minor children.
Third, ministry, serving theLord somewhere in the kingdom,

(58:45):
and then it's family and friendsand work and those kinds of
things.
But when it gets out of order,you're going to have chaos.
And so that's one of theprinciples that I think that I
love the most that and safetybeing safe in a relationship,
emotionally safe in arelationship where I can say
anything to my husband withoutbeing judged or criticized.

(59:06):
But I can say what I need,husband, without being judged or
criticized, but I can say whatI need to say.
And so you've got to haveemotional safety in a
relationship before you can eventalk about all those things
called communication.
If you're not emotionally safehere, then I'm not going to talk
.
Emotionally, safety is openingup my heart and making myself
vulnerable to you, and so we canhave that kind of a

(59:28):
relationship.
And so safety and God'spriorities are my top two.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
That's so good.

Speaker 3 (59:35):
That is great yeah.
Safety is the entry point tointimacy.
Intimacy You'll never have anintimate relationship without
yeah.

Speaker 4 (59:45):
So there's a lot.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
There's's a lot I wish we had time to break down
we don't the priority structurebecause you know we hear about
people that battle with um a lotof times, like people that may
have control issues.
Well, you know, like, well, mymarriage is first, so you can't
go here and you can't do this.
I gotta be number one sofinding the balance and all of
that.
You know we've dealt withpeople that deal with things
like that and, uh, there's a lotto that.

(01:00:07):
But you guys have shared thatwith us.
We adopted that back when Ifirst met you.
You guys have always taughtthat, always enforced that in
our ministry, in our lives, andit's reverberating in our church
.
We've talked about it as well.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
That's right.
Well, it's official.
We had our counseling session.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
That's what we have to do.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
We got to bring them on as guests, so then we can
exhale, we get all of ouranswers, the people that we're
getting questions from.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
They're really not other people.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
They're really us, but it's such a blessing to have
you both, not only on here withus, but to have you both in our
lives.
I mean such a just the lovethat you have for us, the love
that you have for the Lord firstand foremost, but your heart to
really want to see people,marriages, couples, really

(01:01:03):
healed and people set free.
I think it's, it's absolutelyamazing and I know that people
have been blessed by listeningto this.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
And before we let you guys go, is there anything you
want to mention concerning anyproduct contacting you guys,
ministry things that you wantour viewers and listeners to
know about?

Speaker 4 (01:01:20):
Well, I think the only other thing is that we know
that there are many, manymarriages out there that are
remarriage or second marriages,third marriages.
That's a tough one, and so thereare resources that are
available out there and we havea series that we put together
called the New Normal, and it isfor blended families, and I
think that if because that isone of the most difficult things

(01:01:42):
to manage, because you cannothave a nuclear family a lot of
people go into remarriagethinking, oh, we can make our
families just like a normalfamily, and that is not true.
It's got to be managed in adifferent way, and so we have
put this resource together forpeople who are in those second
and third marriages.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
So you can get that on your webpage.

Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
What's that?

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Pardon me, can they get that on your webpage?
They can get that on your Webpage.
What's that?
Pardon me, can they get that onyour Web page?

Speaker 4 (01:02:09):
They can get that on our?
Yeah, they can contact ourministry, just contact the
ministry.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
We don't have a bookstore on the Web page, but
just hello at sh ministry dotcom.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
Wonderful, wonderful.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
Well, thank you both yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Oh yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
Our call 303-884-8030 .
Right, and that's our office.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Well, you know there's a whole lot more,
obviously, that we can get into,but unfortunately time and
space seems to always fail us.
And thank you guys so much forjust taking some time all the
way out there in Denver to comeout and hang with us here on
Dimensions.
And we love you guys andappreciate you so much and pray
God's blessing and hopefullywe'll make a stop out there soon
to come see you guys.

Speaker 4 (01:02:53):
Good, we'd love it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
And you're still stuck with us.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
That's right, that's right, and you're stuck with us
too, even with the smoke, right,right right, so you gotta
answer your phones next time.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Bless you guys.
Thank you All right.
Well, that was fun.
That was so much fun, you knowwhen she said get in your hula
hoop, that's going to stay in mymind.
So, whatever I say, I'm goingto go in my hula hoop.

Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
You know what?

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
I'm talking about.
You know what's up?
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
So get ready, I'm ready.
I won't come out with my arms,I'm just going to go like this
I'm going to get on that littlething and do one of these, and
that's how she's going to knowshe's going to get on her hula
hoop.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
I won't come out with my firearm.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
That's right.
That's so much more we couldhave got into.
But one of the things I want tomention to y'all before we go.
I want to mention I have a newsegment that we're doing and
it's called let's get it on withDr Love.
Now listen, this is the thing Iwant you to do.
I want you to email us info atanother levelchurch or you can

(01:04:02):
also in the chat there, if yousend in a question, to let us
know, because I'm going to andwe're going to answer.
I'm going to answer but we'regoing to talk about.
I'm going to ask all thequestions.
Yeah, she's going to be askinga question on television where
they call me Dr Love.
A lot of people will seek meout for relationship advice or
being in love and things on thatline, so we will talk about
those.

(01:04:22):
If you have any questions aboutdating relationships, we're
gonna have segments with dr love, so I'm gonna come on my little
, get up and uh represent foryou guys to answer questions
that whatever's on your heart,about anything love
relationships, marriage, divorce, um, sex within marriage,
dating sex, you know whateverreally.

(01:04:43):
You know men love to talk aboutsex.
You know that right so anywaysbut we're actually we got a
segment that we're gonna becoming up soon with that we're
going to do a whole, um, uh, ashow on sex in a godly marriage.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
So you're going to be talking about emotional pretty
much emotional air water.
I love that emotional air waterand food.
Are you gonna talk about needsto survive as well?

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
I'm going to talk about anything that you have
questions about.
So you call in Dr Love andyou'll be able to take a look at
that.
So that's a new segment that'scoming up.
So we want to hear from youguys Even right now.
If you want to type somethingin, let us know.
If you have questions, we'llconsider it to be able to bring
that on for our next session.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Also too.
Just remember to like share,subscribe.
Make sure you do that.
This was so good.
There are people out thereright now that are really
struggling in theirrelationships that I do believe,
without a shadow of a doubt,that this is really going to
help them and give them somenuggets of truth that will
really help them navigatethrough this.
So share it, share it, share it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Go to every podcast store.
We're in everyone I Heart Radio, android, apple, I mean, any
pocket any place you can findpocket.
I think it was like 12 of them.
We're on every single one ofthem.
Go, subscribe to it.
So then, each time that we doone of these, even though we're
on Facebook and YouTube, you candownload those in your car,
listen to them again and, if youwill like, subscribe, follow,

(01:06:04):
share you'll be the latestaddition to the Dimensions
family.
So come and join with us andlet's get this stuff out.
We've got a whole lot more.
Do we know what we got comingup next week?

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
Not right now, but we will soon.
Ok, we're trying to work,something very unique out.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
That I don't know if anybody has done this on a
podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
They're not ready for this.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
I don't know.
I mean, I haven't seen anythinglike this.
So I'm really excited.
So you don't want to miss nextweek, but we'll continue to give
you details and keep youupdated.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
Yeah, we've got.
I have a real good friend ofmine coming on in a couple of
weeks, william Federer.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
Oh, is he next week?
Maybe he is oh yeah no, no, heis.
That's right.
No, I'm sorry, it's the 17th,yeah, so 17th, next week,
william Federer.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
He's a historian.
I've met him on CornerstoneTelevision years ago.
He was also with us at TPUSAand a major speaker, travels all
over.
He's going to be talking aboutrevival and prayer and it's just
going to be off the chain.
So that'll be next week andhe'll be live with I don't
remember where he's from.
He's down there, like inOklahoma or Nashville or
something like that.
So he's going to be on with usas well.

(01:07:09):
We got people from all overthat are coming on.
But listen, if there's certainthings you want us to tackle or
talk about, let us know.
We want to continue to growthis.
We want to speak to what isimportant to you.
So if you want to know moreabout certain things, let us

(01:07:30):
know.
Subscribe to it, because you,even though we're scheduled to
come every Thursday at eight,there's going to be other times
we're coming on and then theweek after that, the 24th, that
is where you're talking aboutthis, uh, this new thing that
we're doing.
So that's going to be crazy.
You're not going to miss thatIf we do everything that we said
we're going to do.
That's going to be wild, butit's going to be a lot of fun,
and it's going to be someministry tied to it, but it's
going to be a lot of fun.
So that's what dimension is allabout.

(01:07:51):
It's all about different levelsand different dimensions, and so
we want to be able to do thatas well.
Anything else you want to takeaway before we go said take this
over and over.
Put these things in your spirit.
We pray that God bless you.
Be willing to forgive, bewilling to meet needs, be

(01:08:12):
willing to create a safe spot.
Be with all the things that wetalked about.
Do those things and it'll helpyou.
Listen, the things that, eventhough we're talking about it,
in marriage, it know that you'vebeen blessed as well and we'll
see you next time right here onDimensions.