June 20, 2024 • 45 mins
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Can family dynamics thrive within ministry, or do they invite spiritual abuse? Join us as we explore this intricate balance, referencing Jesus' interactions in Mark 3:31-35 and offering insights into maintaining harmony and clarity in roles. We'll dig into practical stories like Miriam and Aaron's relationship with Moses to uncover strategies for navigating these complex dynamics effectively.
We then tackle the sensitive issue of pastors publicly criticizing their peers, weighing the spiritual authority and appropriateness of such actions. Drawing lessons from Galatians 6, we discuss the importance of humility and gentleness while emphasizing the need for accountability and redemption. We'll reflect on real-life examples and biblical mandates to restore those who have erred with love and compassion.
Finally, we distinguish between conviction and judgment, illustrating how correction should be approached with love and meekness. From addressing public sins to maintaining unity within the church, we underscore the need for redemptive correction and mutual respect. Tune in to gain valuable insights into balancing ministry obligations with family relationships, understanding the broader implications of spiritual authority, and embracing love and redemption within the Christian community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, I'm so excited that you've tuned in.
Listen, I've got some greatstuff to get into Part three of
spiritual authority versusspiritual abuse.
We're going to talk aboutfamily and the dynamics of
ministry and how you intertwinethat with spiritual authority
and still be able to keep a good, healthy family relationship.
I'm also going to be talkingabout pastors going on the media
, talking about other pastors.
(00:22):
What should we do?
Saw a situation not too longago about a guy on a stripper
pole and another pastor callsthis pastor out and there's a
whole big to-do about it.
Listen, we've got a lot comingup.
I am so excited, I am so gladthat you tuned in.
Keep it locked, ladies andgentlemen, because Dimension
starts right now.
Welcome, welcome, welcome toanother edition of Dimensions.
(00:55):
I'm so excited that you tunedin.
I'm J Anthony Gilbert and,listen, I am so glad you are
here Now.
First and foremost, as we alwaysdo, I need you to take a minute
right now, just take a moment,right where you are, and I need
you to like, subscribe, follow,share, do all the things y'all
normally do, and I'm coming toyou this evening it's seven
(01:17):
o'clock and whenever it is thatyou're watching this, take a
minute and just like subscribe,follow, share, let somebody know
this is spiritual authority.
Share.
Let somebody know this isspiritual authority, something
that's really real.
A lot of people have questionsabout it and I want to speak to
you about that today.
Dealing with the family dynamicand then also just other
pastors calling other pastorsout, you know you got spiritual
authority.
Does that operate for pastorsas well as people that are in
(01:38):
the pews?
We're going to talk about thatas well.
So that's important.
Now listen, even though we'redoing this on a video, you know,
I want you to know we do have apodcast, so listen.
If you have never downloadedthe podcast, take a minute.
I think we're on every platformthat you can possibly get a
podcast.
Go there and download it andthen subscribe to it, and every
(01:58):
time that I finished going live,it uploads right to.
You'll be able to catch thelatest, greatest edition of that
and you know what's great aboutit.
You can listen to it in yourcar when you're working out.
If you do a float spa, if youdon't know about a float spa,
you need to check it out.
Float spas are off the chain.
You want to sit in there andlisten and get a little
edumacation.
(02:19):
We've got all that and morecoming to you.
So I'm excited about the timethat I'm going to have with you
all today and just discussingsome of the things that I feel
are pertinent and one of thethings we just want to jump
right into it, because dealingwith family in ministry there's
a lot of.
In my almost 30 years ofministry there have been a lot
of people that have not beenable to do the family dynamic
(02:39):
and I am blessed to have a lotof family in my ministry and I
say that because it is ablessing to be able to have that
.
But it's also very difficultand I may bring some family on
later on.
There's another family.
You've heard me mention thename Bishop Mark Filkey.
His family is outstanding.
It's a hard dynamic becausethere's family and then there's
(03:00):
ministry.
A lot of people just have arough time being able to deal
with that.
So I might bring some otherfamilies on later on in future
podcasts to be able to talk alittle bit about that.
And I've been blessed to have mybrothers with me.
My one brother he is in chargeof our discipleship ministry, a
discipleship pastor.
My sister-in-law she is incharge of a lot of our admin
(03:21):
stuff.
My wife, she does ministry, shecan do pretty much anything.
My other brother, he is ourpraise and worship pastor.
My father-in-law andmother-in-law they're involved
in serving in the ministry.
So I have a lot and we have awhole lot of other leadership as
well.
But my family's very gifted andthey could go to any church and
operate in a leadership roleand capacity.
(03:44):
So I'm honored to have that.
And sometimes what happens whenfamilies come in, there has to
be a differentiation betweenfamily and work, and when you're
in the kingdom of God, it'swork, it's a business, and a lot
of people don't look at it likethat.
And so what happens is we bringthe family dynamic into the
church and the church dynamicinto the family, the family
(04:05):
dynamic into the church and thechurch dynamic into the family.
And while the kingdom of Godneeds to be applied in both,
there is a hierarchy in the bodyof Christ and that has to be
followed, and so there are somethings that you're going to have
to do in order to do that, andI'm going to start right off
with a scripture and I want youto go with me, if you would, to
Mark chapter number three, versenumber 31.
Mark, chapter three, versenumber 31.
(04:27):
And I love this story herebecause it's really really
outstanding about and it givesus a great understanding of how
it ought to be in regards toministry.
And I love this story herebecause it's the story of Jesus
he's in ministering and hismother and his brother's desire
to see him.
And look at this story herebecause the story of Jesus he's
in ministering and his mother'sand his mother and his brother's
desire to see him.
And look at this here.
(04:48):
It says in verse 31 to 35, thenhis brothers and his mother
came and standing outside.
They sent to him calling, sothey were outside.
Now look at this here.
This is very profound.
You have Jesus inside doingministry.
Mothers and brothers arestanding outside calling to him
ministry.
Mothers and brothers arestanding outside calling to him
and a multitude was sittingaround him and they said look,
(05:08):
your mother and your brothersare outside seeking you.
But he answered now, this isreally, really, this is where
family and ministry can get alittle sticky at times and this
is where Jesus draws the lineand shows us how it ought to be.
But he answered and said who ismy mother or my brothers?
He looked around in a circle atthose who sat about him and
(05:29):
said here are my mother, mybrothers, for whoever does the
will of God is my brother and mysister and my mother.
Now, he was not discharging ordiscrediting, rather, that
family and all that is notimportant or that he doesn't
have any mothers or brothersanymore.
I believe what was happeningthere is that his mother and his
(05:51):
brothers were saying hey,listen, we know you're Jesus the
Messiah, but we need to talkwith you.
And he was a grown man doingkingdom business.
So his mother brought herauthority as a mom and the
dynamics of family into hisministry at the time and he was
letting them know that when weare at home, I am your son, I
(06:12):
will honor you and serve you anddo all the things that a son
would normally do.
But when I am in the kingdom,when I'm operating in my gift
and in my call, you're notallowed to bring mother into
that.
And that dynamic can be verydifficult for a lot of people,
because what can happen ifyou're a son and you're the lead
pastor and you have your mom inthere?
(06:32):
Of course you're still going tohonor your mom and you're still
going to do all the things, butthat doesn't mean she gets to
mother you within the church and, matter of fact, there may even
be times where the son, as thepastor, may have to say
something to the mom to make anadjustment or change.
It can even be an area ofcorrection and that's why a lot
of times I'm going to helpsomebody real quickly here.
(06:55):
I tell people all the time ifI'm going to have my friends, if
I'm going to have family in mychurch, the first thing we are
going to do is we are going tosit down and have a conversation
, because the question has to beis can I pastor you?
Can we separate?
Do I?
And I'm going to be perfectlyblunt when I say this can I get
all up in your grill when youinvite me to your barbecue?
(07:16):
I'm not going to disrespect you, I'm not going to dishonor you,
I'm not going to abuse myauthority within the church, but
if there's something I need tocorrect, if there's something I
need to say to you, if there'san area of pastoring and I want
to look at it like this If Iwasn't your friend, if I wasn't
your brother, if I wasn't yourhusband, if I wasn't this, that
(07:37):
or any type of role familymember, excuse me, or any such
thing.
What would you expect me to sayto you?
And if I can't have that rolewith you, it's better for us to
preserve the relationship afriend, family or whatever it
might be and you find a pastor,and then we can just have
Thanksgiving dinner together, wecan have Christmas together,
(07:59):
we'll just be buddies.
That's fine.
But if I'm going to be yourpastor, there has to be a
conversation early and I willlet them know that there may be
times I need to come to you,maybe things I need to correct,
maybe things God may give to you, give me for you that to give
to you, and if you can't allowme to address that and to pastor
you, then we need to no longerhave the pastoral relationship
(08:22):
and let's preserve that.
Now, if you remember, anytime arelationship comes into your
life, you want to preserve thenature of the relationship,
which leads me back to anotherpoint, why I think it's so
important that pastors preservethe title of pastor.
You should not call your pastorby their first name.
You should not tell them that,even if it's your son or your
daughter, when you are in thekingdom it's pastor.
(08:45):
If it's your brother or sister,it's pastor.
It preserves the nature of therelationship and you don't
become too familiar.
And if you can't addresssomebody and if you can't speak
into their life as a pastor andyou have a family or friend,
dynamic relationship and theydon't give you that room, it's
better not to go there.
And what Jesus was doing, he wasseparating the two.
(09:07):
There is a time for family andwhen you get home, I'm sure he
was always the Messiah, but hetook his hat off and he did what
he did as a son.
But then when he came into theministry world, when he was
doing that, he, when his motherand brother tried to cross that
line, he corrected them and saidno, no, no, who's my father and
my mother and my brother and mysister?
(09:28):
Who he that doeth the will ofGod?
So he was letting them know I'myour son, but this is not a son
role right now.
This is my call, this is who Iam as a pastor, even when you're
married.
My wife and I you know she is apastor in our church but I'm
the lead pastor, so she can't, Ican't allow her to bring wife
(09:50):
into a pastor role and I alsocan't use pastor when she's my
wife.
There's two different thingsthere and I need to honor her in
both of those and she needs tohonor me in both of those.
So a lot of pastors can't getalong, because sometimes you
even have to have somebody thatministers to your wife or
ministers to your family.
If they're in the church, youhave other people that can come
in there if you don't have thatvoice, because they're going to
(10:12):
need someone to pastor them, andsometimes having a pastor means
you need to have it, meanshaving a mentor in your life as
well.
So if you can't fulfill thatrole for your wife, if you can't
fulfill that role for your wife, if you can't fulfill that role
for your husband, if you can'tfulfill that role with your
family or whoever it might be,you need to find somebody that
can shepherd them, and so that'sthe thing.
There is a complete differenceand you have to have clear cut
(10:34):
conversations on those things inregards to how you're going to
shepherd family, spouse,whomever it might be.
You're going to find yourselfhitting one another and
exploding, and so it doesn'tmean it can't happen.
It doesn't mean it can't happen.
(10:54):
I mean it can be either one.
Sometimes people can make itwork.
Sometimes people can't.
You got to find out what worksfor you, but you need to be able
to do both.
There's a time for family andthere's a time for business
kingdom business.
So kingdom business is kingdombusiness.
We don't bring family titlesinto that.
Now, other people may work onit differently.
It doesn't mean we don't knoweach other as that.
But if my brother, who is aworship pastor, he can't come in
(11:20):
and tell my other brother ortell my wife how they do it just
because we're family.
That's not your role.
So you have to clearly definethe roles, you have to clearly
define the relationships, youhave to clearly define the
expectation and then hold eachother accountable to be able to
do that.
And that's what Jesus was doingthere.
He was saying who's my mother,who's my brother, who?
But he that do it the will ofGod.
I think that's a phenomenalpassage of scripture that he was
(11:40):
separating the two there, andif you don't do that, you're
going to have problems.
One of the things as a pastor,though, I can't bring pastor
into my family.
So what do I mean by that?
If we're home having dinner,and it's that and the other, and
they don't have to go aroundand say he's pastor this.
Now my family some of them willcall me pastor even when we're
at home.
I've asked them.
(12:01):
I said you don't have to do anyof that.
They just said that's somethingthat they wanted to do.
That's fine with me, but Idon't bring that title home.
I don't bring that title home.
I don't operate as a pastor infamily.
I don't operate as a pastor inthose moments and you'll have to
define what that looks like.
And sometimes people will dothat.
It's like well, they're apastor all the time.
(12:22):
It doesn't work that way.
I'm not pastoring my family andmy brothers per se.
When we're at home havingThanksgiving dinner, I'm there
to serve just like anybody else.
I'm there to be a blessing,just like anybody else.
I'm just Jay at home.
You know my job is my job.
My kingdom business is mykingdom business.
But family is family.
So you have to kind of separatethe two of those.
(12:43):
So I've never abused that orgoing into church.
You know, because they're myfamily, that I use that as a way
to kind of gain power oranything like that.
I'm there to serve them, butthere are times that I have to
make decisions and things onthat line, and maybe some of
them don't even agree, but Istill got to make the decisions
that God has called me to make,and they have to give me the
room to do that.
So that's why thoseconversations are so important.
(13:06):
You have to have those up front.
If I had a friend that said,hey, I'm going to come and be in
your church, and I'd say, greatA friend, great a friend that
before I was pastoring I grew upwith them.
If they come to my church,we're going to sit down and have
a lunch together.
Why?
Because can I pastor you.
Some people might leave.
Oh, that's my friend, so I cando that.
Well then, what happens when Ihave to bring something to you
that maybe you don't want tohear, or maybe there's something
(13:27):
that I need to address, orwhatever it might be, or maybe
there's something you don'tagree with.
Then, all of a sudden, you feelyou can put your hands on what
I'm trying to do.
And now we're getting into thispower struggle.
I don't want to have it.
So I've learned have thediscussions early.
Even if you're doing a businessand you're bringing family in
with it, you've got to separate.
Okay, when we're here at work.
This is how we operate.
(13:48):
When we're not at work, this ishow we operate.
So you've got to both be inagreement and you've got to
respect the family line, thefriend line, and leave that for
there.
And then the ministry line isthe ministry.
And that is a very hard thingto do.
It's very delicate, it can getugly really quick, it can get
sticky really quick andsometimes you have to have those
(14:10):
hard conversations with oneanother.
So it's important that youunderstand that.
And then if you're a personthat's under a family member in
ministry, you have to respectthem as such.
And that goes back.
Remember the story with Miriamand Aaron.
And let's see here in Numbers,chapter 12, we talked about that
and how she felt.
Because she was his sister, shecould come in and say what she
wanted to say to Moses and Godtook that personal.
(14:34):
And so it's important that youunderstand that just because
you're a family, you can't bringthat over into the church.
You just can't do that andsometimes it can work and
sometimes it can't.
You know, we've had situationsin our family where we got close
to where are we going to beable to make this work or are we
not?
You know, and it's in a lot ofdifferent capacities.
You know, I've got my wife withmy brothers, I've got in-laws
(14:58):
and with me, and then also yougot my wife with her parents
that are in our church and she'sa pastor and they're doing
their thing.
So I mean there's a lot ofthings that go along with that.
So you have to have conversation.
There has to be a respect thatis given to family, for family
and church is church.
And if you can't turn off andsay, okay, that's my brother, my
sister, whoever it is, and turnthat off and allow them to lead
you or be led by them or acombination of the both,
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depending on what position youhold, it's better not to even go
into that relationship becauseyou're going to have issue and
family needs to be pastored.
It's not like they don't get tobe pastored because they're in
family.
No, you still need to bepastored.
I still have to be able toaddress things leadership,
hierarchy, all of that it allneeds to happen.
And if you can't do that, gofind a church where you can be
(15:43):
pastor and then we can juststill have Thanksgiving dinner
together.
We'll get together forChristmas and birthdays and all
that good stuff and preserve thenature of that relationship.
So it can be very hard and itdoesn't always mean it's always
going to work, but this is whatwe have done in our family and
it's helped us, and we've hadour roadblocks and our stumbling
blocks and different thingsthat we've thank God, so far
(16:04):
we've been able to turn intostepping stone.
There have been situations,though, where we've hit where we
were wondering are we going tobe able to get beyond family and
ministry and all that?
And God, by his grace, so farhas blessed us to be able to do
so.
So it's very, very importantthat we learn that just because
we're family doesn't mean we canbecome familiar with one
(16:25):
another, and just because youare a pastor or a minister, a
family, you don't have thatauthority to tell them what to
do in every area of their life.
You need to respect them, andthere's a delicate line as far
as how you address your family.
Even when you're correcting, itcould be my father-in-law,
who's my wife's father or mother.
If I have to share somethingwith them, how I address them, I
(16:48):
have to determine the rightlanguage, and things like that.
It doesn't mean I can't say it,but it means I have to
determine the right language,and so it's kind of like how we
talked about with Timothy andPaul was writing to him about
addressing the older men asbrothers and making sure that or
I'm sorry as fathers and theyounger men as brothers.
(17:08):
So we exhort them.
We don't, when you're a youngerperson in ministry, you don't
go and just run your mouth atthem and tell them where to go
and to sit down, and even whenthey're your age, it says exhort
them as a brother.
So you know, it's all abouthonor.
Ladies and gentlemen, that'sthe big key learning how to
(17:28):
honor the different men or womenthat are in your life.
It is just so, so, veryimportant.
So I wanted to take just alittle bit of time with that and
mention that there.
So I think some of it I've kindof covered in previous ones.
In regards to, you have todefine the relationship early.
You have to do that, and that'swhy you don't call your pastor
by his first name, even if it'sfamily.
(17:49):
If family is in ministry, youhonor their titles in the church
.
It's just as simple.
And when you don't, you shouldbe willing to be corrected by
that and be willing to be heldaccountable to that because
those titles are important.
It preserves the nature of therelationship and if someone's
not humble enough or able tobring themselves low enough to
(18:09):
submit to another person inministry, maybe that ministry
isn't for them.
So it's important that weidentify that and we recognize
that.
Now, another thing I want totransition to is pastors calling
out other pastors in ministry.
Oh man, you know, this is thething.
There was one thing that wasaddressed oh, my goodness, I
(18:31):
should have gotten the name ofthe person.
Let's see the pastor that wasthat called out the one pastor
for the stripping pole that theyhad, and I think that's just
really unfortunate that ithappened the way that it did.
And you know it's really nojoke.
(18:51):
Matter of fact, there we go.
It was Mark Driscoll, if youremember that situation there.
There was a male performer backin the day that I guess now was
repentant, but did this littlestripper pole thing came out
with his shirt off and MarkDriscoll goes back, seeks the
Lord, comes back and thencorrects that in public.
(19:11):
You know that's one thing inparticular.
Public.
You know that's one thing inparticular.
You know a lot of pastorsgetting on social media rebuking
other pastors, condemning them,judging them all this type of
thing.
Well, what's the appropriateway to look at that, you know,
and that's how I started allthis off.
I mean, you see a lot ofdifferent names in the news
(19:32):
right now and this is not and Ican share it before I'm never
one that's gonna get on here andstart ousting different pastors
and ministries, but BishopJakes has had some things going
on.
Pastor Robert Morris hascurrently stepped down, dr Tony
Evans stepped down, pastor RobParsi had a situation, some
allegations that came up.
There's all these things thathappen.
(19:52):
I mean, you go on and on, andthe only thing different between
them and us is the fact that wehave less of a camera on us.
Everybody has different levels,but they're on a national and
world, international level towhere, when something goes wrong
with them, it goes viral.
So there's pros to having thattype of platform, and then there
can be cons if we make errorsin our world.
(20:15):
So what do we do and how do wehonor those pastors but yet
still call a spade a spade.
And what happens when pastorscall?
I saw one pastor out recentlywho was just calling everybody
out.
I mean, he's calling them andtelling them yeah, you can show
up at my church we're cockedlock and ready to rock and all
(20:37):
these types of things.
I'm like man.
I mean this is not the spiritof love.
Calling people devils, and Imean name calling and all those
types of things.
That's not.
You know, there's nothing inscripture that says we need to
deal with one another like that.
I want to go to Galatians realquickly, chapter one, I'm sorry.
(20:57):
Galatians, chapter six, realquickly here.
I want you to take a look atthis.
It says Brethren, if any man isovertaken in a trespass, you
who are spiritual, restore sucha one in a spirit of gentleness,
considering yourself lest youalso be tempted.
Bear one another's burdens andfulfill the law of Christ.
If anyone thinks himself to besomething when he is nothing, he
(21:19):
deceives himself.
But let each one examine hisown work and then you will have
rejoicing in himself alone andnot another, for everyone shall
bear his own load.
So the first scripture therethat we need to understand is
when we find someone in a fault,we need to bear their burden
and restore them in gentlenessand in meekness.
So even when I'm mentioning thedifferent names, if you notice,
(21:40):
I'm not going into all theirgraphic details, telling them
how dare they and this and theother?
I'm not trying to be a tabloid.
The reality is, though, we aregoing to see more and more men
and women falling.
The Bible says that there wouldbe a great falling away.
As a matter of fact I'm goingto see if I can find that real
quickly I think it's in 1Thessalonians or 2 Thessalonians
, rather chapter two, and ittalks about the great falling
(22:04):
away.
Here it is.
Now check this out 2Thessalonians, chapter two.
Now, brethren, concerning thecoming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together inhim, we ask you not to be soon
shaken in mind or troubled,either by spirit or word, or by
letter, as if from us, as thoughthe day of Christ had come.
Now look at this.
So it's talking about thereturn of Christ.
No one deceive you by any means, for that day will not come
(22:27):
unless the falling away comesfirst, and also the man of sin
is revealed, the son ofperdition, who opposes and
exalts himself above all that iscalled God or that is worshiped
, so that he sits as God in thetemple of God, showing himself
that he is God.
So I'm saying that there's goingto be a great fall, on which
we're already seeing.
We're seeing the church, we'reseeing the pulpits where they're
(22:52):
now bringing inclusion.
Doesn't matter your lifestyle,sexually, doesn't matter what
you defile, you define marriage,all of it.
They're saying it's welcome.
We're seeing more and morepastors and scandals and things
that are going wrong, and somearen't going to be repentant.
Some will be, but we're goingto see a lot more of that.
The Bible says, as Christ'sreturn gets closer, that the
(23:15):
love of many is going to growcold because iniquity is going
to abound in Matthew 24.
So we're seeing that happen aswell.
That's why I tell people it'sso important to keep oil in your
lamps, it's so important tostay prayed up, it's so
important Watch this, stay inchurch.
I didn't plan on going here, butlet me do it anyways.
It is very important that youare in the house of God.
(23:39):
Don't become this cyber churchperson.
Don't become a person that isin virtual church the word
virtual meaning almost real.
There's nothing that canreplace the fellowship of the
saints, so you need to be in thehouse of God Now.
I'm not talking about peoplethat are bedridden or people
that can't get there.
Since COVID has happened, manypeople have reverted to virtual
(24:04):
church now, and we don't wantthat to be the replacement for
being in the house of God.
We need to make sure that we'rein God's house.
Thank God for virtual church,virtual preaching.
I'm doing it right now, butthat doesn't replace fellowship.
There's something aboutfellowship with the saints that
grows, you develops, you keepsoil in your lamp, keeping
yourself prayed up.
(24:24):
Let me mention this as well.
I didn't plan on going here,but I want to mention it anyways
.
Be careful of what you allowinto your home the movies you
watch, the music you listen to,the streaming that you do, what
you allow on your kids' phonesand what they watch.
If you're not monitoring yourkids, you need to monitor your
children and what they do online, because there's so much that
they can get into.
(24:45):
Even with all the monitoringstuff, there's still ways that
they can get around it and findthemselves in trouble.
Www, the World Wide Web oh,what a tangled web we weave, you
know.
I mean there's a web out therethat gets you tangled up and
then the devil can just slowlycrawl up on you and devour you.
So it is important that we becareful of the music we listen
(25:05):
to, conversations, we keep thethings that we do, the things of
the world that we allow intoour lives that can siphon out
the oil and fill it with waterand therefore we become diluted
and watered down in our life.
So be careful of the mixing inthe season.
That's why we need thefellowship of the saints.
The Bible talks about how in 1John, that when we have
(25:28):
fellowship one with another it'sproof that we're walking in the
light.
The devil always seeks toisolate.
If he can isolate you, then hecan annihilate you.
That's why the Bible says, whenthe 90 and nine were together
and the one left, jesus said thegood shepherd goes after the
one.
Why there's power?
My good God in agreement and inunity.
(25:50):
There's power.
When you're together with thebody of Christ, there's power.
Matter of fact, there's so muchpower that the shepherd left
and he had so much confidence inthe unity amongst the 99, he
felt comfortable to leave them.
But it was the one that wasisolated, that was preparing to
be annihilated.
So it is very, very important.
But you understand, you need tobe in the house of God in these
(26:14):
last days and that falling awayis happening.
So being in church and beingwith one another, it is so
vitally, vitally important.
Okay.
So I got on that because I'mtalking about pastors falling
away.
How do we address these pastorsthat are pastors, that are
(26:36):
pastors, and so how do pastorsaddress other pastors?
What do we do when we see apastor fallen?
I am not a person that feelsthat God has given us.
The Bible says judge not lestyou be judged.
Blessed are the merciful, forthey shall obtain mercy.
It doesn't mean that sometimes,when things come out in the
news and things happen thatthere needs to be, because
there's been a lot of peoplethat have said different things,
done different things thataren't correct and, as a result,
(26:58):
it could be setting a precedentor an example to the world that
that lifestyle, that beliefthat whatever is okay.
So there are times when apublic rebuke has to happen so
people don't feel it's okay.
But watch this it is not acondemnation per se of the
(27:19):
person.
Maybe, maybe it's not,depending on every scenario.
You don't ever want to condemn.
You always want to beredemptive, but you want to call
them to repentance.
But some people get on thereand call them a devil and call
them names and degrade them.
The whole purpose of exposingthem is to make sure somebody
doesn't say that lifestyle isokay, that belief is okay, that
(27:42):
action is okay.
This is not right.
So when something goes public, Idon't think it's wrong for a
pastor to address it.
I think it's how they addressit and why they're addressing
what they're addressing, and wealways need to be remember this.
When all else fails, askyourself the question I called
it wrong.
I called it wrong.
Am I redemptive in my efforts?
(28:05):
If you are redemptive, whichmeans this is wrong, but if you
come to Jesus, he can make itright and there's room at the
cross for you and there's amessage of the good news at the
end of it.
Now, of course, we need tocorrect certain things.
You know, I remember one pastorin particular came out about
the tithe and talk about itwasn't no longer necessary to
tithe anymore.
(28:26):
And then there's some pastorsthat come out saying that
homosexuality is okay and thingsalong that line, and same sex
marriage is all right,transgender is okay and the
gospel of inclusion came out,where everybody is saved, nobody
will go to hell, okay.
You know, when that stuff goesviral, then there are times when
(28:47):
pastors have to speak to thatbecause you don't want other
people hearing that and thensaying, okay, if this person
said it, it must be okay.
So there's a time to addressthe dysfunction, the heresy, the
belief system, the ideologythat could cause people to stray
, but we are still redemptive tothe man or the woman.
(29:07):
We're still redemptive to them.
So if you're going to be aperson that speaks about that
stuff, it needs to be with aredemptive, merciful heart.
So you have to do both andthat's why the Bible said Jesus
was full of grace and truth.
Not that they're all havingtruth, but are your words
seasoned with salt?
Are they redemptive or are theyjudgmental and condemning and
(29:28):
no hope for return?
We want to make sure peopleknow this is right, that's wrong
, but on the other hand, we canbring them back into the kingdom
in Jesus name.
So pastors calling out otherpastors in this situation here.
I've heard people mention aboutthe Mark Driscoll thing and I
want to mention that for amoment because I think it's very
, very important that we addressthat and people.
(29:49):
I've had multiple conversationsand talked with people the guy
that they had a men's conferenceand for some reason or another,
they had a guy on a stripperpole and Mark Driscoll didn't
feel comfortable.
So he called it out and saidhow there was a demonic spirit
that was open, and then thepastor starts talking back to
him about how he needs to make.
He should have done itprivately and I have two schools
(30:12):
of thought with that that.
I've heard people say Somebodysay you need to keep them, keep
it quiet, should address itprivately.
Then he all said he wanted toaddress it publicly.
And I always feel like this Ifpeople are impacted publicly, I
don't feel that a public rebuke,public correction, is out of
order.
(30:33):
And of course, mark Driscoll hasbeen very controversial in a
lot of things that he's done inthe past and things like that.
I get it.
But just going back to thescripture, the Bible talks about
how we need to correct othersso that others may fear.
So when something is donepublicly, there needs to be a
public correction lest othersthink oh well, I'll start having
strippers in my church.
And so what happened?
(30:53):
You had hundreds, if notthousands, of men together in
one place seeing a man on astripper pole, which is a little
, to be honest with you, alittle foreign to me.
I don't know all the details asto why they had that, but this
is what I would say If there'ssomething wrong that was done
publicly.
If somebody addresses itpublicly, I don't think it's
wrong, because what you're doingis you're letting people know
(31:16):
hey, this is what the Bible says, that was not correct.
And this guy that was in thepulpit went and did that.
Now if it was a pastor'sprivate sin, if it was something
you saw about the pastor and itwasn't public, and you go to
him and you address it publicly,I think you're out of order.
But going to the pastorprivately is you know totally
what needs to be done in asituation.
(31:37):
But then if there's a publicshowing of sin or some belief
system, it has to be addressedpublicly so people don't go down
the wrong path and feel that isokay and that's how you need to
live.
So I do not have a problem withthat.
Some people may have had aproblem with it.
I do not, uh, cause I think inthis generation's day and hour
(31:58):
there's so much looseness in theworld that if we don't address
those things accordingly, peoplewill run with that stuff and
now you'll have women strippersin there and before you know it
people will be twerking anddoing every other such a thing
in the house of God.
I mean, oh, it would never getto that.
We didn't think we'd get to apoint where churches would be
adopting same-sex marriage andsaying that's okay, and now you
(32:19):
have a first, you have thepastor and the first man.
You've got all that.
Now I mean, who would havethought we would have gotten to
that point?
So I remember, looking back, Inever thought that marijuana
would have been legalized.
Now you can get it on everycorner in some capacity.
So I mean every corner in somecapacity.
So I mean you know it's lifecan get worse and worse and
worse when it comes to cultureif light doesn't stand up and
(32:40):
say something.
So there are times that we needto address those things and we
need to speak to those things.
Very, very, very important thatwe address those situations
accordingly.
So I believe that what it comesdown to at the end of spiritual
authority is that spiritualauthority is spiritual.
And even when a man or a womanhas spiritual authority, how we
(33:03):
address people needs to be inmeekness, it needs to be in love
.
And I think, even with pastors,when we find another pastor and
say if we can do it privately,we should do it privately, but
if there is a public opening andthey're condoning a certain
action, a belief that's contraryto Scripture.
We have to speak to that soothers don't start saying,
(33:27):
because, think about it.
To permit is to participate.
Your silence is an affirmationthat something is okay.
If you saw somebody gettingraped and you didn't say
anything, you're saying it's OK.
In essence, internally, you maysay, well, I don't think that
was right, but you?
But if you saw and witnessed itand didn't do anything about it
, you have to say something.
Like Dr King said, the time isalways right to do what is right
(33:50):
.
So it's important that weaddress the things that we see
and we don't allow that tocontinue to go on.
So there are times that we haveto say something and a lot of
people aren't going to sayanything at all.
They want to play the nice cardand all that.
But remember, it's not aboutnot judging people.
Now watch this.
This is important.
It's not about not judgingpeople.
I don't want to be a judge, Idon't want to be a judge.
(34:11):
It's not about being a judge.
It's about when people of powerand influence do things
contrary to the scripture, thosethat may not have the maturity
and understanding could fallinto heresy, could fall into sin
, could fall into error, and ourjob as pastors and leaders is
(34:31):
to make sure that doesn't happen.
So it is vital.
There are times that you have tobe public and you have to say
the hard thing and you have todo the hard thing, and a lot of
people may not like it, but it'sstill the truth anyways, and
it's all about how we go aboutit.
Though we're always redemptiveand every situation could be
different.
There could be a past that'sflagrantly arrogantly declaring
(34:53):
that the Bible says X, y, z andit doesn't.
Or the Bible clearly says acertain lifestyle is wrong and
they're condoning it and sayingit's okay to do it, or whatever
it might be.
I mean, it could be anything,but when it's clear that the
Bible is clear that this is asin, this is wrong, before God
and somebody gets on and sayssomething otherwise, it needs to
(35:15):
be addressed publicly so othersdon't fall into that, and what
we do is we say we love them,we're praying for them, but this
is what the Bible says aboutwhat you saw and what you heard.
So I need you to see that andwe should be very quick to study
, to show ourselves approved, sowe understand what the
scripture says about whateversituation pops up.
So it is just so very, veryimportant that we address the
(35:38):
things that we need to address,in public and in private.
I believe we should coverwhenever we can.
When we can't cover, let'scover people.
When we can't cover, we can't,and sometimes you can't cover it
, but you don't have to bejudgmental and condemning in
your efforts to help people seethe light.
(36:00):
So the purpose behind peopleseeing the truth is to keep them
from falling in heresy, keepthem falling into sin, they
could think, because this leadersays it's okay, it's all right
to do it.
There was a certain person on atalk show not too long ago, and
they had mentioned about how allof the songs that they had
created, they created prettymuch with their backside nude,
(36:26):
on sitting on a bench, and saidwhen you come to my house, don't
sit on that bench because thereain't nothing but cheeks there.
And that's what this individualsaid.
They made all the songs thatpeople worship to, but naked,
with their cheeks on the bench,and some people say, well, is
that okay?
Now, that was made public.
So for me, though, in thatsituation, I'm like why do
(36:47):
people need to know that?
What is the reasoning behindexposing something that is
intimate to the public eye?
What's the reasoning for that?
Why do we feel the need to dothat?
And so that is not somethingthat people need to see in their
minds?
And the Bible says don't letyour good be evil spoken of.
(37:08):
So, even though that may not bewrong to do, there's some
things you just don't talk aboutbecause of what it can do to
other people's thinking aboutyou.
So there's certain things youdon't say.
There's certain things placesyou don't go.
So there are a lot of peoplethat address that.
But this is my point it'sredemptive.
Hey, I don't believe that'scorrect.
(37:29):
That's not why you want to dothat.
But this individual, we want tocontinue to pray for them and
bring them into the kingdom ofGod.
You know, it's funny.
We went from a point in lifewhere people went from like
exposing everything to where nowyou know, people will say, well
, I just want to pray for thatperson and tell it so they have
an opportunity to gossip.
(37:49):
But then people got so caughtup and worried about gossiping
that now we're afraid to call aspade a spade.
Now we're at a point in lifewhere people don't want to judge
anybody, judge anybody.
So judgment has been now acolorful way of saying I don't
want to call out anybody's sin.
I don't really want to saysomething is wrong.
I don't really want to make astance.
That's what they're callingjudging.
No, judging is saying it'swrong, you're a bum, you're a
(38:13):
loser, you're a sinner, andleaving it at that.
Correction and conviction saysit's wrong.
Listen, this is what the Biblesays.
But there's room at the crossfor you.
Let's make the adjustment,believing the best in them and
trying to bring them to wherethey need to be.
So this is where I believe ithas been lost, in the body of
Christ and where pastors now ithas been lost in the body of
(38:36):
Christ and where pastors now Imean I've seen some pretty ugly
conversations of pastors doggingother pastors just downright
like calling names, pretty muchsaying hey, if you want to meet
in the streets, let's do thisall that type of stuff.
There's no place in scripturefor that.
The Bible and I've read itbefore to you, the Bible says
that the man of God needs to notbe quarrelsome, not given to
(38:56):
anger, not been one that'slooking to create strife, but
looking to be gentle even intheir correction, in humility.
The Bible says to correct themin humility, to bring correction
.
So I'm not seeing a lot of that.
And when you see that thespirit of that individual is not
okay, it's not all right.
(39:17):
There isn't a redemptive butit's just combative.
Their spirit is not correctaccording to scripture, it's not
right.
You can correct, but still doit in humility, do it in
meekness and do it in kindnessand gentleness.
You can still correct.
You can still correct, you canstill go.
It's kind of like the differencebetween let me say it like this
(39:39):
, put a little humor on it thedifference between telling
somebody and going up to themand say, man, your breath is
terrible, and you know, and soyou, and then you hand them a
piece of gum and say, my gosh,man, your breath stinks.
Now it could be a hundredpercent true, a hundred percent
true, but you don't have to sayit like that.
You could go and say, hey,listen, um, you know, I noticed
(40:02):
that.
Uh, you know your breath smell.
You got a lot on your mind.
It could be something simple,like you just go to him, say,
hey, you know I love you brother, and just pass something in
their hand, quietly anddiscreetly.
You know it could be somethingalong that line.
You know it's.
It's the way you go about it.
You want them to bring aboutthe change.
You know you hear people say allthe time if you're really my
(40:23):
friend, you'll tell me the truth, without a doubt.
But you don't have to expose me, you don't have to embarrass me
when it's not necessary.
You can just come to me and say, hey, hey, bro, like for me if
it's me.
You just come to me and say,hey, hey, bro, like for me if
it's me.
You just come tell me hey, bro,here, here's a piece of gum
there and I can even I canfigure it out and say are you
telling me something?
Yeah, I am, thank you, Iappreciate that.
Versus everybody's in a room,you decide just to expose them.
(40:45):
So it's important that weunderstand that.
I'll give you one last story.
When it comes to the betweenbetween conviction and
correction versus judgment andcondemnation, there was a lady
years ago in my church and shehad ridden to a certain city and
had a little bit of a distance,and this lady that was I call
them talkaholics people thatjust talk all the time and can't
(41:05):
stop talking and so she talkedthe whole way that she was there
and when they got back, thelady said to the other lady oh
my gosh, you talked the wholetime.
I mean she just startedlaughing at her and the lady was
taken back.
I think a little bit by it Umand uh, but it was front of all
of us, which was none of ourbusiness.
If somebody talks too much, yougo to them alone and you
(41:27):
address them and say hey, listen, I've noticed that.
But see, it's a lot easierbecause watch this, and I want
to say this and I want to saythis Many people do it like that
because they have no courage.
They don't have the courage toconfront them, they don't have
the courage and the love to sitdown and say let me address this
with you.
Hey, listen.
You know I don't know why youfeel the need to talk so
incessantly all the time, but itjust seems like a lot of time
when I'm with you.
You know, I really enjoy beingwith you, but it's really hard
(41:48):
for me to get you would gossipabout them.
You need to go and share thatwith them to their face.
Why the purpose of thecorrection is.
So then, maybe they're losingrelationships and maybe they're
losing different things andopportunities, because they
don't know when to be quiet.
So if you love them, you'regoing to share the hard thing
with them and but you do it inlove, in a way that's redemptive
(42:11):
and corrective, but not judgingand condemning.
So that's what it comes down to, ladies and gentlemen.
So I hope that these last fewsessions on dimensions have been
a blessing to you, justaddressing spiritual authority
in our hearts, and I hope thatit's helped you with
understanding how to deal withpastors and when you're in close
proximity with leaders and yousee parts of the humanity and
(42:33):
dealing with family andeverything else, and that the
abuse is out there.
You know it really is.
There's a lot of people thatabuse spiritual authority and
use it as a tactic of fear, sopeople won't say anything or
open up their mouths, and I hopethat I've done a good job
helping you to understand that.
If you have any questions thatI haven't answered, feel free to
(42:53):
DM me and DM my wife, dm ourministry and let us know and
I'll come back and I'll addresssome of those questions that you
might have, because it isimportant that we understand how
to operate in that and weunderstand how to flow in that
as well.
So I'm going to be coming toyou soon.
I know it's a little bitshorter today, but I wanted to
(43:15):
make sure I wrapped up partthree here.
I might bring on some familyand stuff later on to talk a
little bit more about that andlet them give another
perspective concerning that, butI wanted to wrap this up and
I've got some great thingscoming up in the future as well.
So, listen, don't forget to takea moment, as always, like I
always ask you to do to makesure that you take a moment to
like, subscribe, follow, share,do all of those things.
(43:37):
Let everybody know.
Listen, we're on YouTube, we'rein every I think almost every
social media platform you can beon, and then our podcast go to
everyone.
Everywhere.
You can get a podcast, downloadthe Dimensions podcast, like
and subscribe to it and watch.
God just bless you with moreepisodes and once you subscribe,
(44:01):
as soon as that uploads, you'llhave access to it and it'll be
great.
So, um, I love you all so much.
We're praying for you,believing for God's best in and
through your life.
I hope that this has been ablessing to you and let me just
pray for you before we go now.
Father, in the name of Jesus,thank you for every person.
I hope that this has been ablessing to you and let me just
pray for you before we go Now.
Father, in the name of Jesus,thank you for every person.
I pray that those that may havebeen wounded with spiritual
authority would find healing andthose, father God, that need to
(44:24):
understand better boundariesthat they would have.
That, father and Lord, there maybe pastors out there that
didn't even know that they weredoing what they were doing, or
maybe even have people toofamiliar with them, or whatever
it might be.
Whatever changes, whateverlanded, father, I'm praying that
all of us would love and honorone another, whether we're in
(44:44):
authority, whether we're not.
That Lord will always honor oneanother and love one another.
We'll always be redemptive inour correction and allow the
Holy Spirit to convey that wewon't be judging or condemning
from the standpoint that there'sno redemptive quality, that
there's no way for them to makeit right, there's no way for God
to use it, there's no way forGod to redeem it.
Father, god, I'm asking foryour blessing upon each and
every one of us.
(45:05):
Father, we thank you, givingyou the praise, the honor and
the glory In Jesus name, we prayAmen, amen, amen.
Like I said, I am so glad thatyou tuned in.
I hope that you've been blessed.
I'll be looking forward toseeing you next time right here
on Dimensions.
Well, I'm so excited that you've tuned in.
Listen, I've got some greatstuff to get into Part three of
spiritual authority versusspiritual abuse.
We're going to talk aboutfamily and the dynamics of
ministry and how you intertwinethat with spiritual authority
and still be able to keep a good, healthy family relationship.
I'm also going to be talkingabout pastors going on the media
, talking about other pastors.
(00:22):
What should we do?
Saw a situation not too longago about a guy on a stripper
pole and another pastor callsthis pastor out and there's a
whole big to-do about it.
Listen, we've got a lot comingup.
I am so excited, I am so gladthat you tuned in.
Keep it locked, ladies andgentlemen, because Dimension
starts right now.
Welcome, welcome, welcome toanother edition of Dimensions.
(00:55):
I'm so excited that you tunedin.
I'm J Anthony Gilbert and,listen, I am so glad you are
here Now.
First and foremost, as we alwaysdo, I need you to take a minute
right now, just take a moment,right where you are, and I need
you to like, subscribe, follow,share, do all the things y'all
normally do, and I'm coming toyou this evening it's seven
(01:17):
o'clock and whenever it is thatyou're watching this, take a
minute and just like subscribe,follow, share, let somebody know
this is spiritual authority.
Share.
Let somebody know this isspiritual authority, something
that's really real.
A lot of people have questionsabout it and I want to speak to
you about that today.
Dealing with the family dynamicand then also just other
pastors calling other pastorsout, you know you got spiritual
authority.
Does that operate for pastorsas well as people that are in
(01:38):
the pews?
We're going to talk about thatas well.
So that's important.
Now listen, even though we'redoing this on a video, you know,
I want you to know we do have apodcast, so listen.
If you have never downloadedthe podcast, take a minute.
I think we're on every platformthat you can possibly get a
podcast.
Go there and download it andthen subscribe to it, and every
(01:58):
time that I finished going live,it uploads right to.
You'll be able to catch thelatest, greatest edition of that
and you know what's great aboutit.
You can listen to it in yourcar when you're working out.
If you do a float spa, if youdon't know about a float spa,
you need to check it out.
Float spas are off the chain.
You want to sit in there andlisten and get a little
edumacation.
(02:19):
We've got all that and morecoming to you.
So I'm excited about the timethat I'm going to have with you
all today and just discussingsome of the things that I feel
are pertinent and one of thethings we just want to jump
right into it, because dealingwith family in ministry there's
a lot of.
In my almost 30 years ofministry there have been a lot
of people that have not beenable to do the family dynamic
(02:39):
and I am blessed to have a lotof family in my ministry and I
say that because it is ablessing to be able to have that
.
But it's also very difficultand I may bring some family on
later on.
There's another family.
You've heard me mention thename Bishop Mark Filkey.
His family is outstanding.
It's a hard dynamic becausethere's family and then there's
(03:00):
ministry.
A lot of people just have arough time being able to deal
with that.
So I might bring some otherfamilies on later on in future
podcasts to be able to talk alittle bit about that.
And I've been blessed to have mybrothers with me.
My one brother he is in chargeof our discipleship ministry, a
discipleship pastor.
My sister-in-law she is incharge of a lot of our admin
(03:21):
stuff.
My wife, she does ministry, shecan do pretty much anything.
My other brother, he is ourpraise and worship pastor.
My father-in-law andmother-in-law they're involved
in serving in the ministry.
So I have a lot and we have awhole lot of other leadership as
well.
But my family's very gifted andthey could go to any church and
operate in a leadership roleand capacity.
(03:44):
So I'm honored to have that.
And sometimes what happens whenfamilies come in, there has to
be a differentiation betweenfamily and work, and when you're
in the kingdom of God, it'swork, it's a business, and a lot
of people don't look at it likethat.
And so what happens is we bringthe family dynamic into the
church and the church dynamicinto the family, the family
(04:05):
dynamic into the church and thechurch dynamic into the family.
And while the kingdom of Godneeds to be applied in both,
there is a hierarchy in the bodyof Christ and that has to be
followed, and so there are somethings that you're going to have
to do in order to do that, andI'm going to start right off
with a scripture and I want youto go with me, if you would, to
Mark chapter number three, versenumber 31.
Mark, chapter three, versenumber 31.
(04:27):
And I love this story herebecause it's really really
outstanding about and it givesus a great understanding of how
it ought to be in regards toministry.
And I love this story herebecause it's the story of Jesus
he's in ministering and hismother and his brother's desire
to see him.
And look at this story herebecause the story of Jesus he's
in ministering and his mother'sand his mother and his brother's
desire to see him.
And look at this here.
(04:48):
It says in verse 31 to 35, thenhis brothers and his mother
came and standing outside.
They sent to him calling, sothey were outside.
Now look at this here.
This is very profound.
You have Jesus inside doingministry.
Mothers and brothers arestanding outside calling to him
ministry.
Mothers and brothers arestanding outside calling to him
and a multitude was sittingaround him and they said look,
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your mother and your brothersare outside seeking you.
But he answered now, this isreally, really, this is where
family and ministry can get alittle sticky at times and this
is where Jesus draws the lineand shows us how it ought to be.
But he answered and said who ismy mother or my brothers?
He looked around in a circle atthose who sat about him and
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said here are my mother, mybrothers, for whoever does the
will of God is my brother and mysister and my mother.
Now, he was not discharging ordiscrediting, rather, that
family and all that is notimportant or that he doesn't
have any mothers or brothersanymore.
I believe what was happeningthere is that his mother and his
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brothers were saying hey,listen, we know you're Jesus the
Messiah, but we need to talkwith you.
And he was a grown man doingkingdom business.
So his mother brought herauthority as a mom and the
dynamics of family into hisministry at the time and he was
letting them know that when weare at home, I am your son, I
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will honor you and serve you anddo all the things that a son
would normally do.
But when I am in the kingdom,when I'm operating in my gift
and in my call, you're notallowed to bring mother into
that.
And that dynamic can be verydifficult for a lot of people,
because what can happen ifyou're a son and you're the lead
pastor and you have your mom inthere?
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Of course you're still going tohonor your mom and you're still
going to do all the things, butthat doesn't mean she gets to
mother you within the church and, matter of fact, there may even
be times where the son, as thepastor, may have to say
something to the mom to make anadjustment or change.
It can even be an area ofcorrection and that's why a lot
of times I'm going to helpsomebody real quickly here.
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I tell people all the time ifI'm going to have my friends, if
I'm going to have family in mychurch, the first thing we are
going to do is we are going tosit down and have a conversation
, because the question has to beis can I pastor you?
Can we separate?
Do I?
And I'm going to be perfectlyblunt when I say this can I get
all up in your grill when youinvite me to your barbecue?
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I'm not going to disrespect you, I'm not going to dishonor you,
I'm not going to abuse myauthority within the church, but
if there's something I need tocorrect, if there's something I
need to say to you, if there'san area of pastoring and I want
to look at it like this If Iwasn't your friend, if I wasn't
your brother, if I wasn't yourhusband, if I wasn't this, that
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or any type of role familymember, excuse me, or any such
thing.
What would you expect me to sayto you?
And if I can't have that rolewith you, it's better for us to
preserve the relationship afriend, family or whatever it
might be and you find a pastor,and then we can just have
Thanksgiving dinner together, wecan have Christmas together,
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we'll just be buddies.
That's fine.
But if I'm going to be yourpastor, there has to be a
conversation early and I willlet them know that there may be
times I need to come to you,maybe things I need to correct,
maybe things God may give to you, give me for you that to give
to you, and if you can't allowme to address that and to pastor
you, then we need to no longerhave the pastoral relationship
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and let's preserve that.
Now, if you remember, anytime arelationship comes into your
life, you want to preserve thenature of the relationship,
which leads me back to anotherpoint, why I think it's so
important that pastors preservethe title of pastor.
You should not call your pastorby their first name.
You should not tell them that,even if it's your son or your
daughter, when you are in thekingdom it's pastor.
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If it's your brother or sister,it's pastor.
It preserves the nature of therelationship and you don't
become too familiar.
And if you can't addresssomebody and if you can't speak
into their life as a pastor andyou have a family or friend,
dynamic relationship and theydon't give you that room, it's
better not to go there.
And what Jesus was doing, he wasseparating the two.
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There is a time for family andwhen you get home, I'm sure he
was always the Messiah, but hetook his hat off and he did what
he did as a son.
But then when he came into theministry world, when he was
doing that, he, when his motherand brother tried to cross that
line, he corrected them and saidno, no, no, who's my father and
my mother and my brother and mysister?
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Who he that doeth the will ofGod?
So he was letting them know I'myour son, but this is not a son
role right now.
This is my call, this is who Iam as a pastor, even when you're
married.
My wife and I you know she is apastor in our church but I'm
the lead pastor, so she can't, Ican't allow her to bring wife
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into a pastor role and I alsocan't use pastor when she's my
wife.
There's two different thingsthere and I need to honor her in
both of those and she needs tohonor me in both of those.
So a lot of pastors can't getalong, because sometimes you
even have to have somebody thatministers to your wife or
ministers to your family.
If they're in the church, youhave other people that can come
in there if you don't have thatvoice, because they're going to
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need someone to pastor them, andsometimes having a pastor means
you need to have it, meanshaving a mentor in your life as
well.
So if you can't fulfill thatrole for your wife, if you can't
fulfill that role for your wife, if you can't fulfill that role
for your husband, if you can'tfulfill that role with your
family or whoever it might be,you need to find somebody that
can shepherd them, and so that'sthe thing.
There is a complete differenceand you have to have clear cut
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conversations on those things inregards to how you're going to
shepherd family, spouse,whomever it might be.
You're going to find yourselfhitting one another and
exploding, and so it doesn'tmean it can't happen.
It doesn't mean it can't happen.
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I mean it can be either one.
Sometimes people can make itwork.
Sometimes people can't.
You got to find out what worksfor you, but you need to be able
to do both.
There's a time for family andthere's a time for business
kingdom business.
So kingdom business is kingdombusiness.
We don't bring family titlesinto that.
Now, other people may work onit differently.
It doesn't mean we don't knoweach other as that.
But if my brother, who is aworship pastor, he can't come in
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and tell my other brother ortell my wife how they do it just
because we're family.
That's not your role.
So you have to clearly definethe roles, you have to clearly
define the relationships, youhave to clearly define the
expectation and then hold eachother accountable to be able to
do that.
And that's what Jesus was doingthere.
He was saying who's my mother,who's my brother, who?
But he that do it the will ofGod.
I think that's a phenomenalpassage of scripture that he was
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separating the two there, andif you don't do that, you're
going to have problems.
One of the things as a pastor,though, I can't bring pastor
into my family.
So what do I mean by that?
If we're home having dinner,and it's that and the other, and
they don't have to go aroundand say he's pastor this.
Now my family some of them willcall me pastor even when we're
at home.
I've asked them.
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I said you don't have to do anyof that.
They just said that's somethingthat they wanted to do.
That's fine with me, but Idon't bring that title home.
I don't bring that title home.
I don't operate as a pastor infamily.
I don't operate as a pastor inthose moments and you'll have to
define what that looks like.
And sometimes people will dothat.
It's like well, they're apastor all the time.
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It doesn't work that way.
I'm not pastoring my family andmy brothers per se.
When we're at home havingThanksgiving dinner, I'm there
to serve just like anybody else.
I'm there to be a blessing,just like anybody else.
I'm just Jay at home.
You know my job is my job.
My kingdom business is mykingdom business.
But family is family.
So you have to kind of separatethe two of those.
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So I've never abused that orgoing into church.
You know, because they're myfamily, that I use that as a way
to kind of gain power oranything like that.
I'm there to serve them, butthere are times that I have to
make decisions and things onthat line, and maybe some of
them don't even agree, but Istill got to make the decisions
that God has called me to make,and they have to give me the
room to do that.
So that's why thoseconversations are so important.
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You have to have those up front.
If I had a friend that said,hey, I'm going to come and be in
your church, and I'd say, greatA friend, great a friend that
before I was pastoring I grew upwith them.
If they come to my church,we're going to sit down and have
a lunch together.
Why?
Because can I pastor you.
Some people might leave.
Oh, that's my friend, so I cando that.
Well then, what happens when Ihave to bring something to you
that maybe you don't want tohear, or maybe there's something
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that I need to address, orwhatever it might be, or maybe
there's something you don'tagree with.
Then, all of a sudden, you feelyou can put your hands on what
I'm trying to do.
And now we're getting into thispower struggle.
I don't want to have it.
So I've learned have thediscussions early.
Even if you're doing a businessand you're bringing family in
with it, you've got to separate.
Okay, when we're here at work.
This is how we operate.
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When we're not at work, this ishow we operate.
So you've got to both be inagreement and you've got to
respect the family line, thefriend line, and leave that for
there.
And then the ministry line isthe ministry.
And that is a very hard thingto do.
It's very delicate, it can getugly really quick, it can get
sticky really quick andsometimes you have to have those
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hard conversations with oneanother.
So it's important that youunderstand that.
And then if you're a personthat's under a family member in
ministry, you have to respectthem as such.
And that goes back.
Remember the story with Miriamand Aaron.
And let's see here in Numbers,chapter 12, we talked about that
and how she felt.
Because she was his sister, shecould come in and say what she
wanted to say to Moses and Godtook that personal.
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And so it's important that youunderstand that just because
you're a family, you can't bringthat over into the church.
You just can't do that andsometimes it can work and
sometimes it can't.
You know, we've had situationsin our family where we got close
to where are we going to beable to make this work or are we
not?
You know, and it's in a lot ofdifferent capacities.
You know, I've got my wife withmy brothers, I've got in-laws
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and with me, and then also yougot my wife with her parents
that are in our church and she'sa pastor and they're doing
their thing.
So I mean there's a lot ofthings that go along with that.
So you have to have conversation.
There has to be a respect thatis given to family, for family
and church is church.
And if you can't turn off andsay, okay, that's my brother, my
sister, whoever it is, and turnthat off and allow them to lead
you or be led by them or acombination of the both,
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depending on what position youhold, it's better not to even go
into that relationship becauseyou're going to have issue and
family needs to be pastored.
It's not like they don't get tobe pastored because they're in
family.
No, you still need to bepastored.
I still have to be able toaddress things leadership,
hierarchy, all of that it allneeds to happen.
And if you can't do that, gofind a church where you can be
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pastor and then we can juststill have Thanksgiving dinner
together.
We'll get together forChristmas and birthdays and all
that good stuff and preserve thenature of that relationship.
So it can be very hard and itdoesn't always mean it's always
going to work, but this is whatwe have done in our family and
it's helped us, and we've hadour roadblocks and our stumbling
blocks and different thingsthat we've thank God, so far
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we've been able to turn intostepping stone.
There have been situations,though, where we've hit where we
were wondering are we going tobe able to get beyond family and
ministry and all that?
And God, by his grace, so farhas blessed us to be able to do
so.
So it's very, very importantthat we learn that just because
we're family doesn't mean we canbecome familiar with one
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another, and just because youare a pastor or a minister, a
family, you don't have thatauthority to tell them what to
do in every area of their life.
You need to respect them, andthere's a delicate line as far
as how you address your family.
Even when you're correcting, itcould be my father-in-law,
who's my wife's father or mother.
If I have to share somethingwith them, how I address them, I
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have to determine the rightlanguage, and things like that.
It doesn't mean I can't say it,but it means I have to
determine the right language,and so it's kind of like how we
talked about with Timothy andPaul was writing to him about
addressing the older men asbrothers and making sure that or
I'm sorry as fathers and theyounger men as brothers.
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So we exhort them.
We don't, when you're a youngerperson in ministry, you don't
go and just run your mouth atthem and tell them where to go
and to sit down, and even whenthey're your age, it says exhort
them as a brother.
So you know, it's all abouthonor.
Ladies and gentlemen, that'sthe big key learning how to
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honor the different men or womenthat are in your life.
It is just so, so, veryimportant.
So I wanted to take just alittle bit of time with that and
mention that there.
So I think some of it I've kindof covered in previous ones.
In regards to, you have todefine the relationship early.
You have to do that, and that'swhy you don't call your pastor
by his first name, even if it'sfamily.
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If family is in ministry, youhonor their titles in the church
.
It's just as simple.
And when you don't, you shouldbe willing to be corrected by
that and be willing to be heldaccountable to that because
those titles are important.
It preserves the nature of therelationship and if someone's
not humble enough or able tobring themselves low enough to
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submit to another person inministry, maybe that ministry
isn't for them.
So it's important that weidentify that and we recognize
that.
Now, another thing I want totransition to is pastors calling
out other pastors in ministry.
Oh man, you know, this is thething.
There was one thing that wasaddressed oh, my goodness, I
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should have gotten the name ofthe person.
Let's see the pastor that wasthat called out the one pastor
for the stripping pole that theyhad, and I think that's just
really unfortunate that ithappened the way that it did.
And you know it's really nojoke.
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Matter of fact, there we go.
It was Mark Driscoll, if youremember that situation there.
There was a male performer backin the day that I guess now was
repentant, but did this littlestripper pole thing came out
with his shirt off and MarkDriscoll goes back, seeks the
Lord, comes back and thencorrects that in public.
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You know that's one thing inparticular.
Public.
You know that's one thing inparticular.
You know a lot of pastorsgetting on social media rebuking
other pastors, condemning them,judging them all this type of
thing.
Well, what's the appropriateway to look at that, you know,
and that's how I started allthis off.
I mean, you see a lot ofdifferent names in the news
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right now and this is not and Ican share it before I'm never
one that's gonna get on here andstart ousting different pastors
and ministries, but BishopJakes has had some things going
on.
Pastor Robert Morris hascurrently stepped down, dr Tony
Evans stepped down, pastor RobParsi had a situation, some
allegations that came up.
There's all these things thathappen.
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I mean, you go on and on, andthe only thing different between
them and us is the fact that wehave less of a camera on us.
Everybody has different levels,but they're on a national and
world, international level towhere, when something goes wrong
with them, it goes viral.
So there's pros to having thattype of platform, and then there
can be cons if we make errorsin our world.
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So what do we do and how do wehonor those pastors but yet
still call a spade a spade.
And what happens when pastorscall?
I saw one pastor out recentlywho was just calling everybody
out.
I mean, he's calling them andtelling them yeah, you can show
up at my church we're cockedlock and ready to rock and all
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these types of things.
I'm like man.
I mean this is not the spiritof love.
Calling people devils, and Imean name calling and all those
types of things.
That's not.
You know, there's nothing inscripture that says we need to
deal with one another like that.
I want to go to Galatians realquickly, chapter one, I'm sorry.
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Galatians, chapter six, realquickly here.
I want you to take a look atthis.
It says Brethren, if any man isovertaken in a trespass, you
who are spiritual, restore sucha one in a spirit of gentleness,
considering yourself lest youalso be tempted.
Bear one another's burdens andfulfill the law of Christ.
If anyone thinks himself to besomething when he is nothing, he
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deceives himself.
But let each one examine hisown work and then you will have
rejoicing in himself alone andnot another, for everyone shall
bear his own load.
So the first scripture therethat we need to understand is
when we find someone in a fault,we need to bear their burden
and restore them in gentlenessand in meekness.
So even when I'm mentioning thedifferent names, if you notice,
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I'm not going into all theirgraphic details, telling them
how dare they and this and theother?
I'm not trying to be a tabloid.
The reality is, though, we aregoing to see more and more men
and women falling.
The Bible says that there wouldbe a great falling away.
As a matter of fact I'm goingto see if I can find that real
quickly I think it's in 1Thessalonians or 2 Thessalonians
, rather chapter two, and ittalks about the great falling
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away.
Here it is.
Now check this out 2Thessalonians, chapter two.
Now, brethren, concerning thecoming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together inhim, we ask you not to be soon
shaken in mind or troubled,either by spirit or word, or by
letter, as if from us, as thoughthe day of Christ had come.
Now look at this.
So it's talking about thereturn of Christ.
No one deceive you by any means, for that day will not come
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unless the falling away comesfirst, and also the man of sin
is revealed, the son ofperdition, who opposes and
exalts himself above all that iscalled God or that is worshiped
, so that he sits as God in thetemple of God, showing himself
that he is God.
So I'm saying that there's goingto be a great fall, on which
we're already seeing.
We're seeing the church, we'reseeing the pulpits where they're
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now bringing inclusion.
Doesn't matter your lifestyle,sexually, doesn't matter what
you defile, you define marriage,all of it.
They're saying it's welcome.
We're seeing more and morepastors and scandals and things
that are going wrong, and somearen't going to be repentant.
Some will be, but we're goingto see a lot more of that.
The Bible says, as Christ'sreturn gets closer, that the
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love of many is going to growcold because iniquity is going
to abound in Matthew 24.
So we're seeing that happen aswell.
That's why I tell people it'sso important to keep oil in your
lamps, it's so important tostay prayed up, it's so
important Watch this, stay inchurch.
I didn't plan on going here, butlet me do it anyways.
It is very important that youare in the house of God.
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Don't become this cyber churchperson.
Don't become a person that isin virtual church the word
virtual meaning almost real.
There's nothing that canreplace the fellowship of the
saints, so you need to be in thehouse of God Now.
I'm not talking about peoplethat are bedridden or people
that can't get there.
Since COVID has happened, manypeople have reverted to virtual
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church now, and we don't wantthat to be the replacement for
being in the house of God.
We need to make sure that we'rein God's house.
Thank God for virtual church,virtual preaching.
I'm doing it right now, butthat doesn't replace fellowship.
There's something aboutfellowship with the saints that
grows, you develops, you keepsoil in your lamp, keeping
yourself prayed up.
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Let me mention this as well.
I didn't plan on going here,but I want to mention it anyways
.
Be careful of what you allowinto your home the movies you
watch, the music you listen to,the streaming that you do, what
you allow on your kids' phonesand what they watch.
If you're not monitoring yourkids, you need to monitor your
children and what they do online, because there's so much that
they can get into.
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Even with all the monitoringstuff, there's still ways that
they can get around it and findthemselves in trouble.
Www, the World Wide Web oh,what a tangled web we weave, you
know.
I mean there's a web out therethat gets you tangled up and
then the devil can just slowlycrawl up on you and devour you.
So it is important that we becareful of the music we listen
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to, conversations, we keep thethings that we do, the things of
the world that we allow intoour lives that can siphon out
the oil and fill it with waterand therefore we become diluted
and watered down in our life.
So be careful of the mixing inthe season.
That's why we need thefellowship of the saints.
The Bible talks about how in 1John, that when we have
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fellowship one with another it'sproof that we're walking in the
light.
The devil always seeks toisolate.
If he can isolate you, then hecan annihilate you.
That's why the Bible says, whenthe 90 and nine were together
and the one left, jesus said thegood shepherd goes after the
one.
Why there's power?
My good God in agreement and inunity.
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There's power.
When you're together with thebody of Christ, there's power.
Matter of fact, there's so muchpower that the shepherd left
and he had so much confidence inthe unity amongst the 99, he
felt comfortable to leave them.
But it was the one that wasisolated, that was preparing to
be annihilated.
So it is very, very important.
But you understand, you need tobe in the house of God in these
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last days and that falling awayis happening.
So being in church and beingwith one another, it is so
vitally, vitally important.
Okay.
So I got on that because I'mtalking about pastors falling
away.
How do we address these pastorsthat are pastors, that are
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pastors, and so how do pastorsaddress other pastors?
What do we do when we see apastor fallen?
I am not a person that feelsthat God has given us.
The Bible says judge not lestyou be judged.
Blessed are the merciful, forthey shall obtain mercy.
It doesn't mean that sometimes,when things come out in the
news and things happen thatthere needs to be, because
there's been a lot of peoplethat have said different things,
done different things thataren't correct and, as a result,
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it could be setting a precedentor an example to the world that
that lifestyle, that beliefthat whatever is okay.
So there are times when apublic rebuke has to happen so
people don't feel it's okay.
But watch this it is not acondemnation per se of the
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person.
Maybe, maybe it's not,depending on every scenario.
You don't ever want to condemn.
You always want to beredemptive, but you want to call
them to repentance.
But some people get on thereand call them a devil and call
them names and degrade them.
The whole purpose of exposingthem is to make sure somebody
doesn't say that lifestyle isokay, that belief is okay, that
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action is okay.
This is not right.
So when something goes public, Idon't think it's wrong for a
pastor to address it.
I think it's how they addressit and why they're addressing
what they're addressing, and wealways need to be remember this.
When all else fails, askyourself the question I called
it wrong.
I called it wrong.
Am I redemptive in my efforts?
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If you are redemptive, whichmeans this is wrong, but if you
come to Jesus, he can make itright and there's room at the
cross for you and there's amessage of the good news at the
end of it.
Now, of course, we need tocorrect certain things.
You know, I remember one pastorin particular came out about
the tithe and talk about itwasn't no longer necessary to
tithe anymore.
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And then there's some pastorsthat come out saying that
homosexuality is okay and thingsalong that line, and same sex
marriage is all right,transgender is okay and the
gospel of inclusion came out,where everybody is saved, nobody
will go to hell, okay.
You know, when that stuff goesviral, then there are times when
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pastors have to speak to thatbecause you don't want other
people hearing that and thensaying, okay, if this person
said it, it must be okay.
So there's a time to addressthe dysfunction, the heresy, the
belief system, the ideologythat could cause people to stray
, but we are still redemptive tothe man or the woman.
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We're still redemptive to them.
So if you're going to be aperson that speaks about that
stuff, it needs to be with aredemptive, merciful heart.
So you have to do both andthat's why the Bible said Jesus
was full of grace and truth.
Not that they're all havingtruth, but are your words
seasoned with salt?
Are they redemptive or are theyjudgmental and condemning and
(29:28):
no hope for return?
We want to make sure peopleknow this is right, that's wrong
, but on the other hand, we canbring them back into the kingdom
in Jesus name.
So pastors calling out otherpastors in this situation here.
I've heard people mention aboutthe Mark Driscoll thing and I
want to mention that for amoment because I think it's very
, very important that we addressthat and people.
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I've had multiple conversationsand talked with people the guy
that they had a men's conferenceand for some reason or another,
they had a guy on a stripperpole and Mark Driscoll didn't
feel comfortable.
So he called it out and saidhow there was a demonic spirit
that was open, and then thepastor starts talking back to
him about how he needs to make.
He should have done itprivately and I have two schools
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of thought with that that.
I've heard people say Somebodysay you need to keep them, keep
it quiet, should address itprivately.
Then he all said he wanted toaddress it publicly.
And I always feel like this Ifpeople are impacted publicly, I
don't feel that a public rebuke,public correction, is out of
order.
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And of course, mark Driscoll hasbeen very controversial in a
lot of things that he's done inthe past and things like that.
I get it.
But just going back to thescripture, the Bible talks about
how we need to correct othersso that others may fear.
So when something is donepublicly, there needs to be a
public correction lest othersthink oh well, I'll start having
strippers in my church.
And so what happened?
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You had hundreds, if notthousands, of men together in
one place seeing a man on astripper pole, which is a little
, to be honest with you, alittle foreign to me.
I don't know all the details asto why they had that, but this
is what I would say If there'ssomething wrong that was done
publicly.
If somebody addresses itpublicly, I don't think it's
wrong, because what you're doingis you're letting people know
(31:16):
hey, this is what the Bible says, that was not correct.
And this guy that was in thepulpit went and did that.
Now if it was a pastor'sprivate sin, if it was something
you saw about the pastor and itwasn't public, and you go to
him and you address it publicly,I think you're out of order.
But going to the pastorprivately is you know totally
what needs to be done in asituation.
(31:37):
But then if there's a publicshowing of sin or some belief
system, it has to be addressedpublicly so people don't go down
the wrong path and feel that isokay and that's how you need to
live.
So I do not have a problem withthat.
Some people may have had aproblem with it.
I do not, uh, cause I think inthis generation's day and hour
(31:58):
there's so much looseness in theworld that if we don't address
those things accordingly, peoplewill run with that stuff and
now you'll have women strippersin there and before you know it
people will be twerking anddoing every other such a thing
in the house of God.
I mean, oh, it would never getto that.
We didn't think we'd get to apoint where churches would be
adopting same-sex marriage andsaying that's okay, and now you
(32:19):
have a first, you have thepastor and the first man.
You've got all that.
Now I mean, who would havethought we would have gotten to
that point?
So I remember, looking back, Inever thought that marijuana
would have been legalized.
Now you can get it on everycorner in some capacity.
So I mean every corner in somecapacity.
So I mean you know it's lifecan get worse and worse and
worse when it comes to cultureif light doesn't stand up and
(32:40):
say something.
So there are times that we needto address those things and we
need to speak to those things.
Very, very, very important thatwe address those situations
accordingly.
So I believe that what it comesdown to at the end of spiritual
authority is that spiritualauthority is spiritual.
And even when a man or a womanhas spiritual authority, how we
(33:03):
address people needs to be inmeekness, it needs to be in love
.
And I think, even with pastors,when we find another pastor and
say if we can do it privately,we should do it privately, but
if there is a public opening andthey're condoning a certain
action, a belief that's contraryto Scripture.
We have to speak to that soothers don't start saying,
(33:27):
because, think about it.
To permit is to participate.
Your silence is an affirmationthat something is okay.
If you saw somebody gettingraped and you didn't say
anything, you're saying it's OK.
In essence, internally, you maysay, well, I don't think that
was right, but you?
But if you saw and witnessed itand didn't do anything about it
, you have to say something.
Like Dr King said, the time isalways right to do what is right
(33:50):
.
So it's important that weaddress the things that we see
and we don't allow that tocontinue to go on.
So there are times that we haveto say something and a lot of
people aren't going to sayanything at all.
They want to play the nice cardand all that.
But remember, it's not aboutnot judging people.
Now watch this.
This is important.
It's not about not judgingpeople.
I don't want to be a judge, Idon't want to be a judge.
(34:11):
It's not about being a judge.
It's about when people of powerand influence do things
contrary to the scripture, thosethat may not have the maturity
and understanding could fallinto heresy, could fall into sin
, could fall into error, and ourjob as pastors and leaders is
(34:31):
to make sure that doesn't happen.
So it is vital.
There are times that you have tobe public and you have to say
the hard thing and you have todo the hard thing, and a lot of
people may not like it, but it'sstill the truth anyways, and
it's all about how we go aboutit.
Though we're always redemptiveand every situation could be
different.
There could be a past that'sflagrantly arrogantly declaring
(34:53):
that the Bible says X, y, z andit doesn't.
Or the Bible clearly says acertain lifestyle is wrong and
they're condoning it and sayingit's okay to do it, or whatever
it might be.
I mean, it could be anything,but when it's clear that the
Bible is clear that this is asin, this is wrong, before God
and somebody gets on and sayssomething otherwise, it needs to
(35:15):
be addressed publicly so othersdon't fall into that, and what
we do is we say we love them,we're praying for them, but this
is what the Bible says aboutwhat you saw and what you heard.
So I need you to see that andwe should be very quick to study
, to show ourselves approved, sowe understand what the
scripture says about whateversituation pops up.
So it is just so very, veryimportant that we address the
(35:38):
things that we need to address,in public and in private.
I believe we should coverwhenever we can.
When we can't cover, let'scover people.
When we can't cover, we can't,and sometimes you can't cover it
, but you don't have to bejudgmental and condemning in
your efforts to help people seethe light.
(36:00):
So the purpose behind peopleseeing the truth is to keep them
from falling in heresy, keepthem falling into sin, they
could think, because this leadersays it's okay, it's all right
to do it.
There was a certain person on atalk show not too long ago, and
they had mentioned about how allof the songs that they had
created, they created prettymuch with their backside nude,
(36:26):
on sitting on a bench, and saidwhen you come to my house, don't
sit on that bench because thereain't nothing but cheeks there.
And that's what this individualsaid.
They made all the songs thatpeople worship to, but naked,
with their cheeks on the bench,and some people say, well, is
that okay?
Now, that was made public.
So for me, though, in thatsituation, I'm like why do
(36:47):
people need to know that?
What is the reasoning behindexposing something that is
intimate to the public eye?
What's the reasoning for that?
Why do we feel the need to dothat?
And so that is not somethingthat people need to see in their
minds?
And the Bible says don't letyour good be evil spoken of.
(37:08):
So, even though that may not bewrong to do, there's some
things you just don't talk aboutbecause of what it can do to
other people's thinking aboutyou.
So there's certain things youdon't say.
There's certain things placesyou don't go.
So there are a lot of peoplethat address that.
But this is my point it'sredemptive.
Hey, I don't believe that'scorrect.
(37:29):
That's not why you want to dothat.
But this individual, we want tocontinue to pray for them and
bring them into the kingdom ofGod.
You know, it's funny.
We went from a point in lifewhere people went from like
exposing everything to where nowyou know, people will say, well
, I just want to pray for thatperson and tell it so they have
an opportunity to gossip.
(37:49):
But then people got so caughtup and worried about gossiping
that now we're afraid to call aspade a spade.
Now we're at a point in lifewhere people don't want to judge
anybody, judge anybody.
So judgment has been now acolorful way of saying I don't
want to call out anybody's sin.
I don't really want to saysomething is wrong.
I don't really want to make astance.
That's what they're callingjudging.
No, judging is saying it'swrong, you're a bum, you're a
(38:13):
loser, you're a sinner, andleaving it at that.
Correction and conviction saysit's wrong.
Listen, this is what the Biblesays.
But there's room at the crossfor you.
Let's make the adjustment,believing the best in them and
trying to bring them to wherethey need to be.
So this is where I believe ithas been lost, in the body of
Christ and where pastors now ithas been lost in the body of
(38:36):
Christ and where pastors now Imean I've seen some pretty ugly
conversations of pastors doggingother pastors just downright
like calling names, pretty muchsaying hey, if you want to meet
in the streets, let's do thisall that type of stuff.
There's no place in scripturefor that.
The Bible and I've read itbefore to you, the Bible says
that the man of God needs to notbe quarrelsome, not given to
(38:56):
anger, not been one that'slooking to create strife, but
looking to be gentle even intheir correction, in humility.
The Bible says to correct themin humility, to bring correction
.
So I'm not seeing a lot of that.
And when you see that thespirit of that individual is not
okay, it's not all right.
(39:17):
There isn't a redemptive butit's just combative.
Their spirit is not correctaccording to scripture, it's not
right.
You can correct, but still doit in humility, do it in
meekness and do it in kindnessand gentleness.
You can still correct.
You can still correct, you canstill go.
It's kind of like the differencebetween let me say it like this
(39:39):
, put a little humor on it thedifference between telling
somebody and going up to themand say, man, your breath is
terrible, and you know, and soyou, and then you hand them a
piece of gum and say, my gosh,man, your breath stinks.
Now it could be a hundredpercent true, a hundred percent
true, but you don't have to sayit like that.
You could go and say, hey,listen, um, you know, I noticed
(40:02):
that.
Uh, you know your breath smell.
You got a lot on your mind.
It could be something simple,like you just go to him, say,
hey, you know I love you brother, and just pass something in
their hand, quietly anddiscreetly.
You know it could be somethingalong that line.
You know it's.
It's the way you go about it.
You want them to bring aboutthe change.
You know you hear people say allthe time if you're really my
(40:23):
friend, you'll tell me the truth, without a doubt.
But you don't have to expose me, you don't have to embarrass me
when it's not necessary.
You can just come to me and say, hey, hey, bro, like for me if
it's me.
You just come to me and say,hey, hey, bro, like for me if
it's me.
You just come tell me hey, bro,here, here's a piece of gum
there and I can even I canfigure it out and say are you
telling me something?
Yeah, I am, thank you, Iappreciate that.
Versus everybody's in a room,you decide just to expose them.
(40:45):
So it's important that weunderstand that.
I'll give you one last story.
When it comes to the betweenbetween conviction and
correction versus judgment andcondemnation, there was a lady
years ago in my church and shehad ridden to a certain city and
had a little bit of a distance,and this lady that was I call
them talkaholics people thatjust talk all the time and can't
(41:05):
stop talking and so she talkedthe whole way that she was there
and when they got back, thelady said to the other lady oh
my gosh, you talked the wholetime.
I mean she just startedlaughing at her and the lady was
taken back.
I think a little bit by it Umand uh, but it was front of all
of us, which was none of ourbusiness.
If somebody talks too much, yougo to them alone and you
(41:27):
address them and say hey, listen, I've noticed that.
But see, it's a lot easierbecause watch this, and I want
to say this and I want to saythis Many people do it like that
because they have no courage.
They don't have the courage toconfront them, they don't have
the courage and the love to sitdown and say let me address this
with you.
Hey, listen.
You know I don't know why youfeel the need to talk so
incessantly all the time, but itjust seems like a lot of time
when I'm with you.
You know, I really enjoy beingwith you, but it's really hard
(41:48):
for me to get you would gossipabout them.
You need to go and share thatwith them to their face.
Why the purpose of thecorrection is.
So then, maybe they're losingrelationships and maybe they're
losing different things andopportunities, because they
don't know when to be quiet.
So if you love them, you'regoing to share the hard thing
with them and but you do it inlove, in a way that's redemptive
(42:11):
and corrective, but not judgingand condemning.
So that's what it comes down to, ladies and gentlemen.
So I hope that these last fewsessions on dimensions have been
a blessing to you, justaddressing spiritual authority
in our hearts, and I hope thatit's helped you with
understanding how to deal withpastors and when you're in close
proximity with leaders and yousee parts of the humanity and
(42:33):
dealing with family andeverything else, and that the
abuse is out there.
You know it really is.
There's a lot of people thatabuse spiritual authority and
use it as a tactic of fear, sopeople won't say anything or
open up their mouths, and I hopethat I've done a good job
helping you to understand that.
If you have any questions thatI haven't answered, feel free to
(42:53):
DM me and DM my wife, dm ourministry and let us know and
I'll come back and I'll addresssome of those questions that you
might have, because it isimportant that we understand how
to operate in that and weunderstand how to flow in that
as well.
So I'm going to be coming toyou soon.
I know it's a little bitshorter today, but I wanted to
(43:15):
make sure I wrapped up partthree here.
I might bring on some familyand stuff later on to talk a
little bit more about that andlet them give another
perspective concerning that, butI wanted to wrap this up and
I've got some great thingscoming up in the future as well.
So, listen, don't forget to takea moment, as always, like I
always ask you to do to makesure that you take a moment to
like, subscribe, follow, share,do all of those things.
(43:37):
Let everybody know.
Listen, we're on YouTube, we'rein every I think almost every
social media platform you can beon, and then our podcast go to
everyone.
Everywhere.
You can get a podcast, downloadthe Dimensions podcast, like
and subscribe to it and watch.
God just bless you with moreepisodes and once you subscribe,
(44:01):
as soon as that uploads, you'llhave access to it and it'll be
great.
So, um, I love you all so much.
We're praying for you,believing for God's best in and
through your life.
I hope that this has been ablessing to you and let me just
pray for you before we go now.
Father, in the name of Jesus,thank you for every person.
I hope that this has been ablessing to you and let me just
pray for you before we go Now.
Father, in the name of Jesus,thank you for every person.
I pray that those that may havebeen wounded with spiritual
authority would find healing andthose, father God, that need to
(44:24):
understand better boundariesthat they would have.
That, father and Lord, there maybe pastors out there that
didn't even know that they weredoing what they were doing, or
maybe even have people toofamiliar with them, or whatever
it might be.
Whatever changes, whateverlanded, father, I'm praying that
all of us would love and honorone another, whether we're in
(44:44):
authority, whether we're not.
That Lord will always honor oneanother and love one another.
We'll always be redemptive inour correction and allow the
Holy Spirit to convey that wewon't be judging or condemning
from the standpoint that there'sno redemptive quality, that
there's no way for them to makeit right, there's no way for God
to use it, there's no way forGod to redeem it.
Father, god, I'm asking foryour blessing upon each and
every one of us.
(45:05):
Father, we thank you, givingyou the praise, the honor and
the glory In Jesus name, we prayAmen, amen, amen.
Like I said, I am so glad thatyou tuned in.
I hope that you've been blessed.
I'll be looking forward toseeing you next time right here
on Dimensions.
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