Spiritual Authority vs. Spiritual Abuse (Part 2)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, ladies and gentlemen, if you have been with
me last time, we had a greattime discussing spiritual
authority versus spiritual abuse.
We talked a little bit aboutwhat was going on with Pastor
Rod Parsi, pastor Greg Locke andall the other things.
Since that time, other thingshave popped up.
Pastor Robert Morris oh mygoodness, what's going on in his
world?
And I want to talk to you moretoday about how spiritual

(00:22):
authority and spiritual abuse,how both of them, operate in
people's lives.
Unfortunately, spiritual abusehappens, but we're gonna talk
about spiritual authority, whatit's like to have family going
on in ministry as well, and somany others on this episode
today of dimensions.
It's going to be a blessing.
Stay tuned, we'll be back injust a moment.

(00:44):
Well, praise God, it's good tobe back with you all here today.
I am so excited about this nextepisode here on Dimensions and

(01:04):
I can't wait to get in with allof y'all today.
It is going to be so good and Iam glad that you have tuned in.
It's going to be phenomenal.
So I'm glad that you tuned inand I want you to take a minute
right now, if you would, to takea moment and hit that little
like subscribe, follow, sharebutton, whatever it is that
you've got to push.
Push that right now and getthat going.

(01:26):
Let's get some people on herewith us and get this information
out.
I'm telling you what you aregoing to be blessed by what I'm
about to share today.
I'm telling you it is going tobe outstanding Spiritual
authority versus spiritual abuse.
It's happening all over thespiritual abuse stuff that's
been going on in people's lives.
The way that people have beenabused spiritually.
Dealing with spiritualauthority If you grew up like I

(01:48):
did, you've experienced some ofthat as well where people just
have so much control overpeople's lives, they're a
spiritual authority.
I'm totally for it and Ibelieve spiritual authority is
very, very important to the lifeof the believer and it's
important for each and every oneof us.
But very important to the lifeof the believer and it's
important for each and every oneof us.
But spiritual authority canalso be abused.
Abuse is abnormal use.

(02:09):
It comes from a root word and aword abnormal ab or abnormal
use.
So when you're using somethingabnormally, that's technically
abuse.
You're using it for a reasonthat it was never intended to be
used for, and so please take aminute like, subscribe, follow,
share If you haven't gone toevery.
I think we're on almost everyplatform imaginable for

(02:32):
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This is a video cast here, butif you have not downloaded the
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spotify, whatever that you're on, we're on all of them.
I think almost every single oneof them uh, go there and
download it and then, whateverthat you're on, we're on all of
them.
I think almost every single oneof them.
Go there and download it andthen make sure that you
subscribe to it and you'll getevery one of my episodes.
I'm going to be coming to you alot more.

(02:53):
I believe there's so much that Ineed to share, but you need to
go get that and download that,because that's going to be a
blessing to you, and I believethere's a lot of things that I'm
going to be sharing with you.
That's really going to be ablessing to your life.
I'm really going to minister toyou and that's why I'm on here.
Ladies and gentlemen, I want tobe a blessing to you.
I want to pour into your life.
I believe there are things thatgod's put in my spirit that are

(03:15):
going to be important for yoursuccess as a believer, and
that's why we call it dimensions, because you're going from one
glory to the next.
We're going to take you higherand higher from one level to the
next level, from glory to glory, by the spirit of the Lord.
So take a minute, like I saidright now, and just like,
subscribe, follow, share, go toYouTube, download the podcast so

(03:37):
many different ways that youcan stay up to date on what's
going on.
But I promise you this it willnot be time ill spent.
You will be blessed, you willbe encouraged and you're going
to be edified by the time thatwe spent here today, because a
lot of people, you know we don'ttalk about spiritual authority
anymore.
You know, when I grew up, theytalked about it all the time,
man.
I mean, I don't know if youwere like me, but when I grew up

(04:00):
, man, I was always afraid I wasgoing to hell.
I was afraid that I didsomething wrong.
If you said something wrong inchurch, man, if you didn't walk,
if you grew up and you had toraise your finger when you was
walking through the aisle, ifyou didn't raise up that finger,
you was going to be rebuked.
So there was like an element offear that came over a lot of
people in the church and if yougrew up in that time, in that
era, you understand all of that.

(04:22):
But you know the reality is,ladies and gentlemen, god
doesn't, he hasn't given us aspirit of fear.
We're not called to lead peopleby fear.
We're not called to govern byfear.
And God never anointed pastorsto be tyrants.
They are called to be leaders.
They know scripture is trueTouch not my anointed, do my
prophets no harm.
I believe that I don't believeyou touch the offices of God.

(04:42):
You don't become familiar withthe offices of God, whether it's
pastor, evangelist, prophet,pastor, teacher.
But if you remember somethingJesus spoke to, he said if any
of you that he's talking to thePharisees and Sadducees, he said
if you offend one of theselittle ones, it's better for you
to cast a millstone around yourneck and throw yourself into
the sea than is defend one of mylittle ones.

(05:03):
So I mean there's protectionthat goes both ways.
Jesus was very clear when theywent.
If you remember the story ofthe woman caught in the act of
adultery now that she committedadultery, they caught her in the
very act of it and they broughther out and we're getting ready
to stone her.
What does Jesus do?
He steps in and I think this isvery profound.

(05:23):
This shows a spiritualauthority at its highest, just
the incorrect way and thecorrect way.
So of course, the Sadducees andthe Pharisees.
They go through and they'reready to stone her, kill her.
The law says this she needs tobe killed.
Jesus comes on the scene andbegins to write in the dirt
there, in the sand or whateverit was that he was at.
And he's writing there and whatI've heard it said before the

(05:46):
Jews was writing down all thesins that everybody else
committed.
You know what you did.
You know what you did.
You know what you did, and theBible says each one of them, one
by one, walked out and thenthere was nobody left.
He said where are your accusers?
And she said there aren't any.
He said neither do I condemnthee, but look at this here.
I think this is very importantGo and sin no more.

(06:06):
Whether we're leaders, whetherwe are shepherds, whether we're
sheep, because even shepherdsneed to be shepherded themselves
.
All of us, no matter whatcategory you fit into, we are
all going to need the grace ofGod in our lives.
We're going to need the mercyof God.
Let me mention that, becausethat's really lives.
We're going to need the mercyof God.
Let me mention that becausethat's really important.

(06:28):
We're going to need mercy attimes.
What does that mean?
You're going to see pastors andpreachers fallen.
The Bible says that in the endI believe it is in the book of
Thessalonians that there wouldbe a great falling away.
I think it's firstThessalonians, chapter two, or
second Thessalonians, chaptertwo I'm sorry it's one of those
two there there or 2Thessalonians 2, I'm sorry it's
one of those two there.
There will be a great fallingaway before Christ returns.
We're seeing the humanity of menand women and one of the things

(06:50):
I think is so important eventhough we have spiritual
authority you know, as a pastor,as a minister we are still
human beings.
It doesn't mean that we're notheld to a higher standard of
living, because I'm gonna talkabout that in a minute because
we are.
Because you know people talkabout how those that rule well
among you let them be countedworthy of double honor.
I'm going to talk about that ina minute.
What does that mean?
People think it just meansdouble finances.

(07:11):
It's not.
I'm going to break that down ina minute.
Not that it doesn't have to dowith being blessed financially,
because it does, but there'smore to that context than just
that there, and so it'simportant that we do live a life
of holiness, that we are anexample, that we are fellow
soldiers in Christ that lead thecorrect way with moral
integrity.
I agree with all of that.

(07:32):
And when we're not, you know,unfortunately God's got to take
his belt off and he deals withus.
But as people, we all need tounderstand we are all going to
need mercy at one point oranother in our lives, every
single one of us.
You're going to need it, I'mgoing to need it, we're all
going to need it and we all needto extend it.
We don't see when people talkabout thou shalt not judge.

(07:55):
You know, that doesn't mean,ladies and gentlemen, that you
can't ever correct.
That doesn't mean that youcan't ever speak to something in
somebody's life.
That doesn't mean you can't say, hey, that's not a correct way
of living.
That's not judging.
Judging is this.
It means bringing condemnatorycorrection to somebody without

(08:19):
redemption.
You're judging them.
When you think about it, if youstand before the judge, you did
something wrong, they sentenceyou.
Well, basically, when I sayjudge not lest you be judged.
He's saying don't sentence themunless you want to be sentenced
.
And the reality is it doesn'tmean we can't correct, but the
reality is is that we need tounderstand that in our
correction and we talked aboutthat last time Listen, if you

(08:40):
didn't get the last time'spodcast, go and get it, excuse
me, go and check it out.
You need to listen to part onebecause it's going to lead us
into what part two we hear today, which I'm going to be talking
about spiritual authority versusspiritual abuse.
It is important that weunderstand there are two things
there's condemnation andjudgment.
There's correction andconviction.
Now, the difference between thetwo and just to quickly

(09:02):
summarize it, the differencebetween the two is that
correction and condemnation I'msorry correction and conviction
always has redemption attachedto it.
Condemnation and judgmentdoesn't have that.
It's basically you're wrong,you're a bum, you're a loser,
you're disqualified.
It's it.
How dare you?
And that's it, and that's themessage Should never have done

(09:22):
it.
It's just beat beep, beep, beep.
It's like a shame-riddencorrection They'll use, for lack
of better words.
Conviction and condemnation haswith it Okay, it was wrong, you
did wrong, but you know whathe's the God of another chance.
He'll give you anotheropportunity In light of
everything that's been going onin the world.

(09:45):
We take a look at the videosthat surfaced and the audios
that surfaced about Pastor RodParsley and you take a look at
everything that's going on nowwith Pastor Robert Morris.
Don't even get me going in onthat one there, because that
there to me, I am all forjustice, don't get me wrong.
If somebody did something wrong, they need to be dealt with.
But I also think to peoplecoming out 40 and 50 years later
about things that have happened, I'm not a big fan of that, for

(10:07):
one, I don't think it's thebest way to go back.
I mean, I don't know abouty'all, but I can't remember what
I did 40 days ago and I'll betrying to remember all of that.
So how do you bring somebody tocorrection and things on that
line when a lot of people can'tremember and I'm not.
I'm not condoning anything thathappened, uh, and I don't have
all the stories yet and you needboth sides of the story to
really judge correctly but whatI am saying is people going back

(10:29):
30 and 40 years now, after hislife's been established, and
supposedly, um, they had workedall of that out amongst
themselves and said they wereokay with it.
Now, 40 years later, they'recoming out saying you need to
step down from ministry.
You know, I I guess we need allthe details, obviously, but I'm
not a big fan of that.
I'm not a big fan.
I'm like, if somebody does youwrong, go to them.

(10:55):
The Bible makes it clear.
Not 40 years later, afterthey've established their
ministry, and now say let's runthem through the dirt and all of
that.
You could have done that backin the eighties and let and
dealt with what, however, neededto be dealt with back then.
And I don't, I don't agree withpeople going way back then, you
know, and saying, okay, now I'mready to bring this stuff up.
40 years ago it happened.
I'm upset.
I have been wounded.
I mean, they've done, moved on.
This was when he was in histwenties.
He's now in his sixties, youknow.
So I mean and I'm not sayingthat what he did is correct, but

(11:18):
I will and when you're going toneed all of this.
So, dr Tony Evans, pastor RodParsley, bishop TD Jakes,
there's an issue with Dr CrefloDollar dealing with the tie.
You know, we got to realize allof these guys and gals of the
lady should fall out as well.
We are all human beings, ladiesand gentlemen, every one of us.

(11:39):
Never should we condone theaction, but we should never
condemn a repentant person.
As a matter of fact, you don'teven have to condemn a
unrepentant person, why John 3,17 says they're already
condemned.
They're going to hell.
Our job is to preach the goodnews, to get them to repent and

(12:01):
to turn.
Now, for those of you that mayjust be tuning in, I do want to
mention this because you hadheard this in part one, which
leads me to my next.
My first thing If you have notliked, subscribed, followed,
shared, take a minute, listen.
I'm telling you.
There aren't many peopleaddressing these types of things
right now.
How do we deal with men of Godwhen they fall?
How do we deal with men of God?
What should be our stance asthe church?

(12:21):
And we're seeing so many things, so what should be our stance?
That's what we're talking aboutright now.
So I need you to take a minute,because I'm about to go deep
with y'all on this and it'sgonna be good.
And then, if you haven't gottenthe podcast, take a minute,
download the Dimensions podcastin your favorite podcast store,
because all of this, after thevideo cast, you're gonna go
right to podcast will be blessedin Jesus name.

(12:44):
So take a minute and go aheadand do this.
So I've been addressing thedifferent pastors and things
that have gone on, not from acondemnatory place, because
that's not my job.
We don't condone the action.
The actions need to be dealtwith and they'll have to deal
with it accordingly, based uponwhat they've done.
But our job as the church is itneeds to be redemptive.
It needs to be redemptive andif you're watching right now by
videocast, it typed that inthere.

(13:05):
We need to be redemptive.
We don't need to condemn, wedon't need to judge, neither do
we need to condone.
So I don't want people thinkinglike oh, it's okay, they're
pastors.
No, no, no, no, no.
We're held to a higher standard.
But we need to when it's evenin the public eye, and when I
say, unfortunately, it hurts,you know if you have to come to

(13:28):
the public table if you'reexposed.
But let me say this as well Mostof the time, ladies and
gentlemen, when men and women ofGod have been exposed, it
wasn't the first time that Godtried to deal with them.
There was something unrepentantthat they continue to do.
Now I'm not talking aboutpeople that came back 40 years
later, 30 years later.
You know, I don't know what themotive and the purpose behind

(13:49):
all that is all the time, but Ithink that should also be looked
at as well.
But I also believe with itthough, ladies and gentlemen,
when we are exposed or things docome out, if it's in the
present time or something that'shappened in a time where we
have to own, it's difficult, butwe have to be willing to own
that as individuals.
So I talked about last time,too, how God never anoints you
to destroy what he died for.

(14:10):
I talked about when Mosesstruck the rock.
I want to go into somethingright now and I want you to grab
your Bibles, if you would, to 1Timothy, chapter five.
What do you do when your pastis wrong?
You don't agree or you donunderstand, because I think this
is real important.
You know nobody wants to talkabout some of these things, but
I think they're very, veryimportant.
What do I do?
What if your pastor's wrong?
What if he makes an error?

(14:30):
And I don't have time to goback and go to part one, because
I talked about what happenswith the culture, and there's
certain churches that havecertain culture.
There's only four reasons whyyou don't.
But what happens when they arein one of those categories?
Maybe it's unbiblical, andmaybe it's something you don't

(14:53):
understand or your pastor'swrong.
How do you address them?
I want to go to 1 Timothy,chapter five, because I know
some of y'all have seen mypastor's wrong, this leader's
wrong.
How do I address that?
There is a way to go about doingthat and I want to start here
in 1 Timothy, chapter 5.
I want to look at verses 1 and2, then 17 through 19.
If you're there, type thatright in that little chat box
here for those that are watchingit.

(15:13):
It says 1 Timothy, chapter 5,verse 1, do not rebuke.
Paul's writing to Timothy saiddo not rebuke an older man, but
exhort him as a father, youngermen as brothers, older women as
mothers and younger women assisters with all purity.
Now jump down to verse number17.
Let the elders or pastors whorule well be counted worthy of

(15:34):
double honor, especially thosewho labor in word and doctrine,
for the scripture says you shallnot muzzle an ox which tre
treads out the grain, and thelaborer is worthy of his wages
or is higher.
Do not receive an accusationagainst an elder except from two
or three witnesses.
So let me stop right there.
This is important.
I think this is very, veryimportant Don't receive an

(15:57):
accusation from an elder.
So one of the things if youhave somebody saying that this
pastor did this, this pastor didthat, there needs to be at
least two or three witnessesbefore you receive that
accusation and say, okay, that'sofficial.
So that's important.
The scripture says here let theelders who rule well be counted
worthy of double honor.
Now I want to show yousomething here.
Rule well has two Greek wordshere that are important.

(16:19):
The word rule is proestime,which means to stand in front,
to put in front or to manage.
Now the word well is the wordkalos, which means moral
goodness mixed with beauty orexcellence.
Oh, that's so good.
Rule well doesn't mean you'rejust leading the church.
It means you're leading thechurch with moral excellence.

(16:42):
You're leading the churchmorally correct.
You're leading the church in away.
That's why I said double honormeans not only are they
preaching, but they're alsoliving what they preach.
This person is worthy of doublehonor.
Why?
Not only is it an honorablething to preach the word, it's

(17:02):
honorable, ladies and gentlemen,to live the life, the greatest
testimony my wife has ever givenme, which I pray, that I always
keep it and pray for me as Ipray for everyone else.
She said he is who.
He is in the pulpit, it's thesame that he is at home.
And I never confessed to beperfect.
I'm not saying I'm perfect andthat's why I don't judge,

(17:23):
because see, listen, if you'vereally walked out this Christian
walk, there are areas that youhad to massage, develop, grow,
repent, fall down, get back up,repent.
You had to keep working and if,if, if, anybody needs mercy,
it's me.
People say why are you mercifulwith others?
It doesn't mean you don't holdpeople to a standard.
It doesn't mean that you don'thold people accountable.

(17:47):
It doesn't mean you don't calla spade a spade, but when they
fall, have you ever fallen?
Have you ever made a mistake?
Now it doesn't mean it doesn'thurt and it doesn't mean and I
don't have time to go into thisforgiveness and reconciliation
are two different things.
Forgiveness requires the partythat was offended to let go of

(18:07):
the debt.
Reconciliation requires doesthe person that committed the
crime.
Are they willing to do what ittakes to win back the trust, the
love, not even the love, thetrust and the relationship, the
intimacy that was once there.
That may have been broken andit could be a lot of different

(18:30):
things the way that you couldlook at that.
But forgiveness deals with oneparty.
Reconciliation deals with both.
Are you following what I'msaying?
And if you've ever made amistake, you've needed
forgiveness.
And if you haven't made amistake, you just did right
there because you just lied,because we've all made errors,
and when God has been so good toyou to where he has blessed you
in spite of yourself, and ifyou've ever had God give you

(18:51):
mercy, which means he didn'tgive you what you did deserve.
He should have took his beltoff, he should have disqualified
you, but he didn't.
If you've ever had that, thenyou need to give that to
somebody else.
And if you've never had that,somewhere along the line,
there's some major issues goingon in your world because
everybody has been disqualifiedat one point or another.

(19:14):
So now we see all of thesenationally known ministers, some
of their humanity leaking out.
How do we deal with them?
That's what's really important.
And then sometimes, even aspastors, there's things that we
may do wrong.
How do we go to our pastor?
So the first thing, it'simportant that we walk in honor.

(19:35):
If you need to go to yourpastor, you always address them
honorably, no matter what.
You go to them with honor, youdo your research, you don't go
talk to everybody else, but youdeal with them honorably.
Very, very, very important.
Go to 1 Thessalonians, chapter 5, 12 and 13.
But as you're going there,that's why I think it's so
important that we understand theBible says when it says let

(19:55):
those who rule well.
That word rule and well, it'stwo different things.
Rule means they're managing,but what does it mean to rule
well?
What is the exact terminologyin the Greek there?
That is the word kalos,k-a-l-o-s, which means their
leadership is mixed with moralexcellence.
My good God, god, give us moreleaders that rule with moral

(20:18):
excellence.
We need that, we need that, weneed that.
And when we do fall shortthough that's what we're talking
about Doesn't mean that they'reperfect, but part of living the
word, ladies and gentlemen, ishow we govern and rule well.
When we make an error, what arewe willing to do?
I remember there was some errorsI made.
It was 20 years ago.
This year I had a major fallingout of my church and I made

(20:45):
some errors, not moral errors,just the way that I was leading
and people couldn't follow and Iwas.
I was fast and way too muchdriving myself to.
I had lost like 40 pounds andsounded like 160.
My weight is around 205.
I mean, I got up into the pulpitand I got up in there and I
didn't say any word.
I'm waiting on God to flow.
You know, and I was young inthe faith and whatnot, and I'll
never forget.
People start walking on God toflow.
You know, and I was young inthe faith and whatnot, and I'll
never forget.
People started walking out ofmy church.

(21:06):
I lost half my church that daybecause they thought I had
literally lost my mind and I wasjust running hard.
After God, I ended up going toa psych unit.
I wasn't insane, I just didn'thave the knowledge mixed with my
zeal.
And I'm saying all this to sayto you that I made an error that
day and, as a result, I wasn'truling the way I should have.
And it cost me some things andI'm a man.

(21:27):
I made a mistake.
I was young.
I started pastoring in my earlytwenties.
There's just a lot that I neededto learn, and part of modeling
the scripture, ladies andgentlemen, is how we operate
when we drop the ball.
Do we come to the table when weneed to?
I don't mean all your personalstuff, because you can't reveal
all your nakedness to everybody,but you need to have somebody
that you can be naked in frontof to expose that.

(21:48):
Let me stop real quickly too.
By the way, let me justparenthetically insert this If
you are a leader, two things letme say this real quickly.
Number one you can't lead peopleand be their friend 90% of the
time and leave them 10.
You can't do that.
I talked about this in part one, but in every relationship that

(22:09):
comes down your path, you haveto define it early.
Why are they in your life?
If I am in your life to be yourpastor, I'm probably not going
to be hanging out with you,going to have pizza, going to
golf every day, all those things, unless it's a very specific
type of relationship.
Of why I'm doing that?
Because familiarity does breedcontempt.
When you are a leader, you haveto make it.

(22:30):
See, some people they make thismistake and I'm helping
somebody right now.
If you are leading people andyou spend more time being their
friend when you need to lead,they're going to develop a
familiarity with you.
It's going to create a fence.
Most likely, most likely,you're not going to be able to
lead them because when you go tocorrect them, they're going to
be looking at you as their homie, as their friend and all that.
They're not going to be able todo.
That A lot of people don'tunderstand.

(22:51):
Oh, they think they're all that.
No, you have to define thenature of relationship.
Did God bring that person inyour life to be your friend or
to be your pastor?
To be your friend it doesn'tmean it never, ever happens, but
it's very rare.
And I've seen so many pastorsand pastors' wives make the
error of allowing people tobecome familiar with them.
And their heart is not bad.
They're like yo listen, let'shang out, let's go have a

(23:13):
barbecue, bring the kids over.
And then one day you got tocorrect them in the scripture,
instead of them saying, hey,they're in my life to be their
pastor.
You're stepping into now, watchthis.
You're stepping into now, watchthis.
You're stepping into the pastorrole.
They're still in the friendrole.
And so now they're thinkingwait a minute.
Who are you to tell me, wait aminute, hold up now.
I know when your breath stinks.
I know this.

(23:33):
I know that I saw some stuff inyour home.
You know that you don't keepyour house clean all the time.
You know they did this I meanwhatever it might be and they
become familiar.
Now they can't see you becauseremember this, y'all ready for
this.
Somebody typed this in herePeople can only receive you how
they perceive you.

(23:54):
Oh, this is so good, becausethe spiritual authority of
spiritual abuse Sometimes peopledon't even realize this.
Watch, if you were called to bein a spiritual authority, let
me show you this In thecorporate world they have
ethical boundaries.
If you are somebody's boss, theydo not recommend that you're

(24:14):
constantly hanging with them,because what happens?
Or you have another role intheir life.
And the reason why is becauseif you're not careful, you can
go in and out of those roles andit can become confusing.
So it's important that youunderstand you can't friend
everybody.
You're pastoring or leading.
You can't do it because itdoesn't preserve the nature of

(24:36):
the relationship.
So you have to determine earlywhy is this person in my life?
And there are pastors I've seenpastors' wives in particular.
They'll bring people into theirhomes, they'll do all these
things and you just can't dothat because then they become
familiar, and then they getoffended because you're trying
to go into the pastor role.
Are you my pastor or are you myfriend?
Because, friends, I can bickerwith you.
I ain't gotta listen to you.
We can go back and forth,pastors.

(24:58):
I know the story.
So, if Right, you can createoffenses and struggles and
issues and conflicts that youdon't need to create.
So some of you may be offended.
Let me help somebody.
You may be offended because howcome my pastor won't do this.
I want to hang out, just playgolf.
And he says, no, I can't dothat.
Three, four days a week, oronce a month, just hanging out
with you continually.
You say why can't you do that?
Sometimes you can't because Ihave to preserve the nature of

(25:20):
the relationship, and then whathappens, though, is that people
become familiar with one another, and then spiritual authority
can be, then it turns intospiritual abuse, and then
there's a big conflict.
I mean, all these things canhappen.
So you have to be very, verycareful, ladies and gentlemen,
on how you deal with people, andyou need to understand
sometimes, when a pastorisolates themselves the way that
they do, they're preserving thenature of relationships, so

(25:40):
then they can make sure they canshepherd you the right way.
I plan on going into this lateron, talking about how, when you
have family in ministry, how doyou operate?
That's a whole nother storythere, because now my brothers
are and now watch this I'm goingto show you the difficulty of
it.
I have my brothers on myleadership, my wife is a pastor
in our church.

(26:01):
I have my sister-in-law, I havemy wife's parents, my father
and mother-in-law.
I've got friends and one of thethings that I have learned you
have to have a conversation.
Now I'm helping somebody rightnow.
If you get friends that come toyou and you're their pastor, or
even if they're going to beyour, you're going to be their

(26:22):
boss and you're a businessperson, or you're a teacher at a
school and they're going to betaking your class One of two
things.
One, you either need you got tohave a conversation right from
the jump and say, hey, whenwe're here, this is how it's
going to look, are you okay withthat?
Number two you either have tosay maybe I'm not the one for
that job If you don't want to dothat, because then we can just
focus on being family or friendsor whatever it might be,

(26:44):
because otherwise the lines willbe skewed.
Ok, I know I took a little sidetrail there, but let's go back
here to First Thessalonians,chapter five.
I know this is being a blessingto you.
I hope that you are likingsubscribing following sharing
this, because I believe it'sreally going to be a blessing to
you and if you enjoying this,give me a thumbs up as well.

(27:09):
But I want you to go to excuseme.
1 Thessalonians, chapter numberfive.
Let me look here.
I'm sorry, actually, let usswitch here.
No, that is correct, versenumber 12 and 13.
And we urge you, brethren, torecognize those who labor among
you and are over you in the Lordand admonish you and to esteem
you and you esteem them veryhighly in love for their work,

(27:31):
safe and be at peace withyourself.
So it's important that thepeople that are in our world, we
honor them.
So the first thing we want todo is we want to walk in honor
Very, very important.
Number two there.
We talked about it before.
It's in First Timothy, chapterfive.
And I want to do is we want towalk in honor Very, very
important.
Number two there.
We talked about it before.
It's in 1 Timothy, chapter five, and I want to go back there.
It says don't rebuke an olderman, but exhort him as a father
and younger man, his brother.

(27:51):
So you know, it's all about howyou go about it.
You don't go to them as anolder, a younger person to an
older.
You go to them as a father, youexhort them, you talk to them
in a way where, okay, all right,pastor, I noticed this here and
I know you're trying to do theright thing.
Can you help me?
See, I heard you say this, butI was noticing this here in the

(28:12):
scriptures and it seemed likethat was not correct.
Can you help me understand?
Maybe I'm missing something.
I wasn't sure, but justsomething didn't sit right.
And let me say this everypastor that can, within reason,
should have some form of an opendoor, a way that if people are
not sure or someone feels likesomething is an error, there's
some way to be able to go tothat pastor.
And larger churches is a lotmore difficult.
In smaller churches you mightbe able to do that, or you'd go

(28:35):
to one of the leaders and askthe leader to explain, or
whatever it might be, but youneed to go to them respectfully
and honoring them as a man orwoman of God.
So it's very, very important.
So go with me also.
2 Timothy chapter 2,.
2 Timothy chapter 2, versenumber 22 to 26.
I hope this is helping youright now.
Flee, is that correct?

(28:57):
Let me make sure I have thisright.
No, no, no, that's incorrect.
Let me see if it's firstTimothy chapter two, first 22.
No, I must've put it in thereincorrectly.
Um, oh my goodness, I wish Ihad this cause.
This is important.
I'll have to look it up.
I must've type it upincorrectly here, but I want you
to see this because this willreally be a blessing to you.
Uh, I thought it was secondTimothy chapter two.

(29:18):
Let me look again.
Um, oh my goodness, it's.
Oh, I'm sorry, it's verse 24.
I put it in wrong.
2 Timothy chapter 2, 24 to 26.
And a servant of the Lord nowthis is very important must not
quarrel, but be gentle to all,able to teach, patient and in
humility, correcting those whoare in opposition.

(29:38):
Now I want to take a minutewith this, because whenever
we're correcting people whetherwe're a pastor to people or
we're going to a pastor, look atthis here we must not quarrel,
be gentle and, in humility,correct.
So, even if you're going toyour pastor or going to a leader
, you go in with humility, yougo in gently and you allow them

(30:02):
to explain.
You ask them, help me see whatyou're seeing.
Because when I heard you saythis or when you did this, I saw
that or maybe they didsomething incorrectly, a
situation that just happenedthat went viral about Pastor Rod
and what happened with some ofhis leadership and things along
that line.
They said, well, how do youhandle that?
Then they need to have aconversation.
You know, and that's what we do.

(30:24):
The Bible says that we're wecorrect those in humility.
We are gentle, even in ourcorrections.
Remember, we talked about thewhole thing with Moses.
So, even when you go to yourpastor, you are gentle with them
, you're humble, you'rehonorable.
You go in almost with amentality like if could say like
this, like if you're not sure,like giving them the benefit of

(30:46):
the doubt, letting them explain.
But if you don't agree, youdon't agree, and if it's an
error, it's an error, but yougot to talk about it.
And then you have aconversation, but you are open
and it says here, in humility,correcting those who are in
opposition if God perhaps willgrant them repentance so that
they may know the truth.
So when you're going to yourpastor, maybe you don't even
understand, maybe they're goingsomeplace and you can't really

(31:08):
jump on board with it.
You go to them in humility andyou say, hey, pastor, can you
help?
I had somebody in my church nottoo long ago, a situation that
happened in church, and theyweren't really sure if they
believed what I was sharing andwhat this guest minister had
been sharing.
And they came to me and I soappreciated that.
I said anytime, I don't wantyou to follow me blindly, that's

(31:29):
cultish.
And now, this is the thing.
It's one thing for somebody toask a question, for them to
understand and get clarification.
It's another thing for them tocome and answer a question
because they're in rebellion,don't want to follow and just
being critical.
Now, that's two differentthings.
And if you're a discerningpastor you'll be able to know
the both.
You'll know them both when theycome.
This person came in and you knowwhat was sad to me and I so

(31:50):
appreciate it now and I affirmedthem.
They said you know, I didn'tknow if I could come to you, but
I'm so glad I could come.
That is out of order.
But even if you can't get to me, I tell people you can get to
one of my leaders that aretrained and they can get the
answer for you, whatever it isthat it is.

(32:12):
But the reality is is that theycame to me with the right heart
and the right spirit and that'sokay.
They weren't condemning me andsaying you're a heretic, you're
this, that, and the third it wasthat and the third it was like
hey, can you help me see this?
I'm confused and they broughtto me their perspective that I
explained to them and we workedthrough that situation together
to help them to buy into whatGod is doing.
So I'm saying this to say to youthere are times you may not

(32:33):
agree.
Maybe your pastor is wrong oryou don't understand.
How do you deal with that?
Now?
If you don't agree and onceagain we talk about if it's a
culture issue, you need to alignyourself with the culture.
If it's dealing with biblicalerror, then you got to go to
somebody and let's work this out, and there may be some blind
spots with you.
You don't know that.
So that's why the conversationis so important.
Maybe God's doing a deeper workinside of you, but it's so

(32:55):
important that we understand weneed to honor pastors and men
and women of God, even in theirerrors, ladies and gentlemen,
even when they make mistakes.
And let me tell you this, theremay be a whole lot of other
pastors and leaders and stuffthat things may come out of the
woodwork.
This is the reality.
Even somebody I'm gonna becontroversial right here Even
someone like Puff Daddy, p Diddy, in the middle of all that he's

(33:17):
doing.
Now, once again, do I condoneanything that he's doing?
Not at all.
Is he wrong?
Without a doubt, this onlyhappened a few years ago.
This is not a one-time thing.
There's a whole lot of stuffthat has gone on there that is
incorrect.
But let me say this to you, inthe midst of everything else
that's going on in the world,him needing to come to the table

(33:38):
there's criminal penalties,whatever he's got to do.
My question is this whocriminal penalties, whatever
he's got to do?
My question is this who's goingto bring him the good news?
Who's going to bring them thegood news?
Yep, see, you don't need goodnews if you ain't got bad news.
So the reality is, you know,it's kind of like when somebody
comes, you says do you want tohear the good news first or the
bad news first?
Well, when it comes to thegospel, you need to know the bad
news in order to appreciate thegood news.

(33:59):
The bad news is we all deservehell.
The bad news is we've sinned.
The bad news is you know allthe things that are wrong with
us.
We are sinners in need of asavior.
The bad news is we are enemiesto God.
That's all the bad news, andwhatever, however, that entails,
we're all worthy of hell.
But the good news is God soloved the world that he gave.

(34:21):
That doesn't mean just becausepeople repent don't mean they
still don't have to pay theprice for what they've done.
But this is the thing Somebodyneeds to let him know.
God hasn't forgotten about you.
You can still be redeemed, butyou got to repent.
Even she said it repent.
The woman was caught in the actof adultery.
What did he say to her?
He said go and sin no more.

(34:42):
It's not a license to sin.
It's not paying over it.
No, it is Okay.
You messed up.
Are you ready to make theadjustment and the changes?
So we need to bring the goodnews to those that have received
the bad news.
But you got to receive the bad.
You got to own it.
You got to own the fact.
My sins are ever before me, mysins.

(35:02):
I'm the one who messed up.
I'm the one who messed up.
I'm not blaming nobody.
It's nobody's fault.
It's me.
It's me.
It's me, oh Lord, standing inthe need of prayer.
You got to own that.
You got to own it to the peoplethat you did wrong to.
You got to own it to the uh, tothe Lord.
You got to own it to yourself.
You may have to own it to thepublic.
You may have to do all of that,but at the end of all of that,
god still loves you.

(35:23):
It's not over until God saysit's over.
God can redeem it somehow.
Some things are worse thanothers and some things you can't
get back, but God can still useit and you can still fulfill
your course, because if you'reon this planet, god still has a
purpose and a call for you.
I hope that y'all are followingwhat I'm saying right now.
This is such a blessing topeople.
I on what I'm saying right now.

(35:45):
This is such a blessing topeople I know it is and because
people are learning how do wedeal with this stuff.
There's going to be a greatfalling away.
If pastors are going to fall,if ministers are going to fall,
if church people are going tofall and they're going to fall
away, turn to homosexuality.
They're going to turn to sometype of heresy.
They're going to turn to agospel of inclusion.
They're going to turn to youcan pick your sex, you can.
I mean, it can be anything itcould turn to.

(36:06):
I'm going to leave the word ofGod.
I'm not going to preach theword anymore.
I'm going to go back to theword, whatever it is, no matter
who they are.
You got men that are messingwith other men.
You've got men that are leavingtheir wives and messing with
children.
I mean, you got all this stuffthat's going on.
How are we to look at it?
How are we to look at it?
And that's the whole purpose ofall of this.

(36:28):
Here is, some of it could bereally really really ugly and
really really really wrong, andsome people might even do prison
time for what they do, but thegospel still applies to them.
Will they have to pay?
Yeah, you know, sometimes theydo, but the gospel still applies
to them.
Very, very important.
Okay, now I want I want tomention one more thing to you
and I'm going to wrap up today.

(36:48):
I'm going to keep it a littlebit short today, but if you
haven't gone and gotten thepodcast, please do so.
But I want to show yousomething here, an incorrect way
.
Go with me to Numbers, chapter12.
Oh, I hope you're being blessedtoday, y'all.
Blessed today, y'all.
I hope this is helping somebody, because not only do I want you
to be able to take this andshare it on Facebook or YouTube
or the Dementious Podcast, Iwant you to be able to teach

(37:09):
this to other people on how dowe address pastors when they're
in there?
How do we address our leaderswhen they make an error?
How do we address these typesof things?
Numbers, chapter 12, verses 1.
This is the story of Miriam andMoses.
Now I want to show yousomething here.
I'm going to talk about thisfrom the standpoint, without the
family matter in it, but it hasa family matter in it, because
this could be the issue Now.
I want you to see this.

(37:29):
Then Miriam and Aaron spokeagainst Moses.
Oh, now watch this.
This is so good Because of theEthiopian woman whom he had
married, for he had married anEthiopian woman.
So they said has the Lordindeed spoken only through Moses
?
Has he not spoken through usalso?
And the Lord heard it Now.
The man Moses was very, veryhumble.

(37:51):
See a lot of people, can I helpsome pastors and people A lot
of time?
We want to defend our title, wewant to defend our pastorship.
We're going to tell everybodywhere to go, and it doesn't mean
there's not time to directthings.
But Moses wasn't looking toretaliate, he wasn't looking to
prove himself and say I'm theman of God.
Who do you think you are?
What did he do here?
He was humble more than all themen who were on the face of the
earth.

(38:11):
Verse number four suddenly theLord said to Moses, aaron and
Miriam, come out, you three, tothe tabernacle of meeting.
So the three came out.
Then the Lord came down in thepillar of cloud and stood in the
door of the tabernacle andcalled Aaron and Miriam and they
both went forward.
Now watch this.
I need you to see this.
Then he said, hearing all mywords, if there's a prophet

(38:32):
among you, I, the Lord, makemyself known to him in a vision.
I speak to him in a dream, notso with my servant Moses.
He is faithful in all my house,faithful, in all my house.
I speak with him face to face,even plainly, not in dark
sayings.
Now watch this.
Now I need you to catchsomething.
When God anoints a man or womanin an office, the relationship

(38:52):
is different.
You might get an impression.
God speaks to men and women ofGod face to face.
There's more of a clarity.
There's more because he's notspeaking to them just for them,
he's speaking to them for apeople.
So he's telling them, he'sseparating now these lines that

(39:14):
have been blurred and scared andthese lines that have been
crossed, even plainly, not indark sayings.
And he sees the form of theLord.
Why, then, were you not afraidto speak against my servant
Moses?
So the angel of the Lord wasaroused against him.
When the cloud departed fromabove the tabernacle, suddenly
Miriam became leprous as whiteas snow.
So we know the story hereMiriam becomes a leper, then
Moses intercedes for her andthen after that, she's banned

(39:34):
for seven days outside of thecamp and then gets restored back
.
We don't hear much from Miriamafter that.
This is the thing I want you tocatch.
Be careful.
See, this is where familiaritybreeds contempt.
What if you know something?
He married an Ethiopian womanthat had nothing to do with him
leading the children of Israel.
That was his personal life,that was what he chose to do.
He chose to marry thatEthiopian woman.

(39:55):
You know that that's just theway it was.
So he did that.
So what she does says okay,because of that, wait a minute,
you ain't the only one thathears from God.
So she allowed the weakness inMoses, the things that were
happening in Moses' personallife, to affect how she
perceived him as a leader, andthen begin to put her mouth and

(40:17):
her hands upon him in anunhealthy way and begin to touch
his office.
And that's where it.
Has the Lord indeed spokenthrough Moses?
Has he not spoken through usalso?
And it's like wait a minute.
Here she became familiar andinstead of allowing God to work
that out in his world and towork through whatever he needed
to work through, he, she said,he even says I talk with him
face to face.
I talk to you a whole differentway.
You might get an impression Imight say very important to

(40:45):
understand.
Do not allow somebody'shumanity watch this to touch the
divinity of their call.
Okay, that's what you have tounderstand.
They did not call themselves.
God called them, so you can'ttouch that office.
So, for example, maybe you findout that your pastor's house is
dirty.
I'm just throwing something outthere plainly and all of a

(41:05):
sudden you're like ew, theirhouse stinks, their house is
dirty.
So all of a sudden now you'relooking at him differently and
saying I don't need to listen tohim in church.
I know that's kind of a strangeanalogy, but you get the point.
Sometimes you may witnesshumanity in pastors, pastors may
see humanity in other pastors,but that don't give us the right

(41:27):
to discredit them and touchtheir office or cause people.
Now here we go to look at theirpastor differently because you
saw their humanity.
Be careful because watch thisIf you afflict another person in
the church and make them seetheir pastor differently or
something you should havecovered, god will judge you,

(41:48):
because now what you did is youmade them look at the person
that God called them to servethem differently, that they can
no longer receive from theirpastor.
So instead of covering thepastor, instead of covering the
leader, we expose.
I'm saying this becauseobviously there's things in the
public light right now ofdifferent pastors and ministers.

(42:08):
They've been exposed.
Well, can't cover that, but wecan now.
Well, we can, but now we'remore of like.
All right, we need to becompassionate and help restore
them, especially if they have arepentant heart.
But there are things that youmight see in leadership,
something where their humanitycomes out.
Maybe you watch your pastor orleader snap at their wife.

(42:28):
Maybe you saw them snap attheir kids one day.
Maybe one day you saw them inpublic and they're shaking their
fists at somebody or gavesomebody some sign language.
You're like that's my pastor.
Watch this.
Y'all ready.
I feel my anointing right now.
God may be trying to see if hecan trust you.
Are you hearing me?
Oh, I feel this from the Lord.

(42:49):
Sometimes God wants to.
God may be calling you to belike an oh, this is so good.
God may be calling you to be anElisha to Elijah.
What does that mean?
You're called to pour water onElijah's hands and to serve him,
but God wants to know.
Can I trust you to be closeenough to get the double portion

(43:14):
, but not become familiar,because if you get close enough,
you're going to see somethingof their humanity.
My good God, my good God,almighty, somebody.
You might see something in aboss, in a leader, a pastor,
whatever it might be and God saycan I trust you that, even

(43:34):
though you'll see their humanity, you will not become familiar
and disqualify yourself?
Why Now watch this?
Because Elisha stuck withElijah until the mantle fell
upon him and he did double themiracles that Elijah did.
But many people will never getthe double portion because they

(43:58):
are not mature enough torecognize there is a difference
between the man and the mantle.
Oh, my good God, the mantle isGod's.
We have this treasure inearthen vessels that the
excellency of the power may beof who?
Of God and not of us.

(44:18):
Listen, you get close enough toany man or woman you are going
to see stuff about them thatmakes them human and immorality.
But I'm saying sometimes it canjust be like I said.
Maybe you saw them have a roughday and they snapped at
somebody.
That's their humanity.
I mean, they're human just likeyou.
It doesn't make it right, butdon't make that say, oh, they're

(44:39):
no longer qualified.
Oh, I can't receive from them.
God may be wanting to see canyou cover my good God?
Can you cover a man or woman ofGod, even if it's a?
Can you be like Noah's two sonsthat came in and walked
backwards and covered theirnakedness versus exposing it.

(45:00):
Come on, somebody and brought acurse ham upon his life because
he should have covered, notexposed.
He saw it, went out and exposedit and his brother came in and
said that's not for me to see.
Do you know the difference?
I don't know who this is for,but somebody needs to catch this
.
Somebody may be getting readyto see something or has seen

(45:22):
something God's saying.
Can I trust you with the doubleportion?
Why is that important?
Number one because God wants toknow can you separate the man
from the mantle?
Because if you don't understandthat, then probably you will
touch the glory of God if youhave the opportunity to walk in
that anointing.
Why?
Because you haven't separatedthe two.

(45:43):
I have seen I could expose menand women of God right now with
things they've done wrong, stuffthat you would never even have
known.
But I have seen it with my eyes.
But this is the reality Iunderstand.
There's a man and there's amantle.
There's a man and there's amantle.
There are two different things.
There are two different things,ladies and gentlemen.
And once again, see, there's aline between computers.
Weren't they accountable?
Yeah, of course, but thatdoesn't mean it's your job to

(46:06):
expose something that you haveseen of their humanity.
And I'm not talking about ifthere's something where you're a
there's a sex offense orsomething like that.
That's a whole nother story,because then you need to go to
them.
I'm talking about when you seeparts of their humanity where
you can become familiar.
Cover them.
God wants to give you a doubleportion.
Can he trust you to cover theman or woman of God in that

(46:31):
moment?
My good God, this is powerful.
Y'all, this is powerful.
See, this is the type ofteaching the church needs in
this season, because we're goingto see humanity.
Moses, we saw his humanity.
Noah we saw his humanity.
Abraham was a liar we saw hishumanity.
Noah was a drunkard.
I mean, we can go on and on.
David was an adulterer and amurderer, all of them had it.
Peter was cussing.

(46:52):
Judas went and hung himself Imean, you can go on and on.
Paul was a murderer before.
I mean you can go on and on andon.
Everybody has something intheir closet.
We're all human beings, but thereality is what happens when we
see part of their humanity andwe're serving them.
You've been close enough, youhave been privileged to be close

(47:14):
to a mantle.
Don't allow your proximity, mygood God, to make you lose or
start becoming familiar.
Don't let proximity destroyfamiliarity or bring familiarity
.
Don't allow it, because youwill disqualify yourself from

(47:37):
the double portion, my good God,almighty.
Well, what do I do when I seesomething like that?
You pray.
Now there's some things you mayhave to go and talk to somebody
about, depends on how severe itmight be.
But I'm talking about maybeyou're riding on street, pastor,
didn't even see you, and all ofa sudden you see him cussing at
somebody and you're like oh mygosh, I can't believe.

(47:59):
I saw that.
Can you be trusted?
How do you handle it?
It doesn't even mean it theremay be sometimes say, hey,
pastor, I noticed when we wereout there.
You know you said the F-bomb tothese people when you were
angry.
Oh my gosh, hey, I haven't toldanybody, but I want to bring it
to your attention.
I really respect.
How do you know, see, can youseparate the two?

(48:21):
Can God trust you with thatnext level?
Are you hearing what I'm saying?
Sometimes you might seesomething, but you go humbly and
you deal with humbly and youdon't say, oh yeah, see, I knew
it Ain't no man of God.
No, no, no Cause if you were inthat role.
Listen, everybody's got toalways be on guard of carnality.
So, miriam, going back to thestory here, miriam allowed

(48:45):
because he married an Ethiopianwoman which she didn't agree
with, and some customs even haveit where he wasn't supposed to
marry an Ethiopian woman becauseof however she was living and
things along that line.
I mean, there's all sorts ofteachings around that, but I'm
not.
My point is, regardless ofwhether you agree or not, god
said I talk with him face toface.
That is, and let me say thistoo, let me say, let me tell you

(49:07):
something, and this is going tohelp somebody.
When pastors and leaders andvisionaries have vision in their
life, it is a very lonely placebecause you are excited about
it and God has revealed it toyou face to face.
But that doesn't mean he talkedto them.
So part of the job of a leaderis to get people to buy into the
vision and the vision, if it'sfrom God, should reverberate in
their spiritual ears.

(49:27):
And that's why, when Samuel wasgetting ready to become the
priest, god said to him I'mgoing to do a new thing and the
ears, when they hear it, in theears of every person.
It's going to tingle, it'sgoing to begin to ring.
It's just so good.
So part of the hard thing aboutleadership, ladies and gentlemen
, being a visionary, is you getto vision.

(49:49):
It's real to you.
You're excited, you're like,listen, this is what God showed
me.
And you expect everybody to seeit the way you do.
Some people will.
Then there's some people thathave questions, some people,
they won't buy into it.
There's some people that maynot want anything to do with it.
But the job of a great leaderis to convince them by the way
of the spirit of God, if they'reopen to buy into the vision

(50:10):
that God has for them and to goin.
And now let me give you onemore lesson here that I think
will really be a blessing, andI'm almost done.
If you don't understand trueleadership, watch this, watch
this.
This is powerful.
Moses gets a vision from God.
It's time to go into thepromised land.
I think it's Numbers, chapter12.
Let's go.
We're going in 40 days torespite the land.

(50:32):
They bring back these grapesthat are as big as watermelons.
The vision was true, just likeyou said it was, but the land
was full of giants.
It was fortified.
There was walls around the city.
All these things are happeningand guess what happens?
10 of the 12 spies say we ain'tgoing.

(50:52):
Matter of fact, let's stoneMoses.
Let's stone Aaron.
Let's raise up a new leader.
We're going back to Egypt.
10 of the 12 said we're notgoing.
Guess what None of them went.
Now watch this.
Why is that so important?
The job of a great leader isalways to cast vision in a way

(51:14):
that causes others to buy intoit, and that's the reason why I
watch this.
A secure leader doesn't have aproblem with the right questions
.
Hear what I just said.
A secure leader doesn't have aproblem with the right questions
.
Are you hearing me Sometime?
Hey, I wanna buy in Moses, butthere are some giants there.

(51:36):
What do you recommend that wedo?
We need a plan for this.
Watch this, watch this.
It wasn't the fact that therewere giants.
It's not the fact that therewere walls.
We're gonna have to deal withthem.
It was the spirit behind whichthey were talking about.
They were talking about it.
They were talking about it.
You brought us out here.
You know these giants are goingto eat us up.
These giants are going todestroy us.
These giants are going to dothis.

(51:57):
So they're questioning hishearing and his leadership.
Not, okay, there's giants andall those things, because that's
the purpose of the report Seewhat's going on and be able to
say, okay, we're going to need aplan.
There's giants in the land, yep.
There's the walls of Jericho,there's these things.
Moses, how do you recommendthat we do all this stuff?
And that's where now thereneeds to be a buying into the

(52:18):
vision.
Are you following me?
It's not the question, it's thespirit behind the question,
because then, as you begin topaint the vision, you begin to
paint the picture.
People can buy into what it isthat God is doing in the earth.
Are you hearing me?
So here we go.
Spiritual authority says, okay,I got to honor the man of God.
I see it.
I do have some questions how wecan develop the plan.
Spiritual abuse is when eitherone we go through and we say,

(52:41):
well, I'm going to take, I'mgoing to destroy Moses and Aaron
, stone them and take anotherleader and go back to Egypt.
Or, on the flip side, mosescomes in and says listen, you
fools.
God spoke to me.
I don't care if you havequestion or not, don't question
me, I'm the man of God.
Let's go, let's get out of here, even though they may be asking
the right question with theright heart.
So great leaders have to havethe ability to discern what

(53:07):
spirit people are walking infrom one moment to the next.
My good God, almighty.
Matthew, chapter 16.
And I promise I'm done afterthis.
Matthew 16.
If you've been blessed, don'tforget to like, subscribe,
follow, share and listen.
Let somebody know about this.
I really believe this is goingto be a blessing to a lot of
people.
I'm going to come on again, andprobably even tomorrow.
I'm trying to get on prettyconsistently here, but if you

(53:30):
didn't get download the podcastyet, get the Dimensions podcast.
It'll really be a blessing toyou.
While you're also doing that,let's go to Matthew, chapter 16,
and I'm done with this.
All right, matthew 16.
Now I wanna show you greatleaders.
Oh, this is so good.
This is like a masterclassright now, because I'm telling
you it'll help you.
It's stuff that I've learned inalmost 30 years of ministry.

(53:51):
There is a difference betweenspiritual authority and
spiritual abuse.
There is a difference, ladiesand gentlemen.
There is a complete difference,and there are questions that
sometimes people have.
It's not the fact.
See, a secure leader knows thedifference between a question
questioning their leadership andwho they are and because the

(54:14):
person is immature and theydon't want to follow God and
rebellion.
And a person is asking aquestion because they're trying
to figure out the details andthey're trying to buy into the
vision.
There is a difference and it'samazing how people can walk in
one spirit from one moment tothe next.
And I'm going to give you thisMatthew 16.
This is the story of Jesus, withPeter here, and he's talking to
him about who do you say that Iam?
Okay, matthew 16 and versenumber 15.

(54:37):
And he said to them but who doyou say that I am?
He just answered who do men saythat I am?
But he asked it and makes itmore personal.
Simon answered you are theChrist, the son of the living
God, and he, you know.
He goes on.
He says flesh and blood isrevealed as unto you.
Upon this rock.
I'll build my church.
The gates of hell will prevail.
Verse 19,.
I'll give you the keys to thekingdom.
And then, in verse 20, it saysthen he commanded his disciples
that they should tell no onethat he was a Christ.

(54:59):
So he goes through, just hasthis awesome time with Peter.
Peter speaks to him, says man,you know, bless the blood, oh my
gosh.
He even changes his name, giveshim the keys to the kingdom.
I mean, it's outstanding.
There's a whole teaching on allthat, but I don't have time to
stop there.
But look at verse 21.
Same conversation.
From that time, jesus began toshow his disciples that he has

(55:21):
to go to Jerusalem, suffer manythings from the elders and chief
priests and scribes, be killedand be raised again the third
day.
And then Peter took him Look atthis Grabs the man, rebukes him
.
Far be it from you, lord, thisshould not happen to you.
But verse 23,.
He turned to Peter Get theebehind me, satan.

(55:41):
You are an offense to me If youare not mindful of the things
of God, but the things of men.
Now watch this as I close.
There is a difference.
You have to, as a, as a, as aleader, you have to know the
difference between what spiritpeople are walking in from one
moment to the next.
I do not believe you can be astrong leader Number one if you

(56:02):
are insecure.
Number two, if you'rethreatened by questions.
Number three, if you do nothave discernment.
Because why you need to know.
I don't think Peter's heart perse was.
He just did.
He was wrong.
He was wrong.
He was like oh wait a minute,jesus.

(56:22):
You just said you know, uponthis rock I'm gonna build my
church, you're not gonna die,don't let people.
He didn't realize oh, uh-uh.
And that's how you can tellwhen you're really operating
with a true spiritual father andtrue leader.
They're always going to speakfrom a place that sometimes
you'll misconstrue, and that'swhy it's important.
Now watch this.
That's why it's important.
Even though he called him thedevil, he still believed in him.
It didn't discredit what hejust said a minute ago.

(56:42):
As a matter of fact, he didn'trealize how quickly he entered
into the.
The moment that he got therevelation, the devil said I got
the, I got to deal with him.
And he immediately came out andGod started the process to work
in Peter's heart and Jesusbegins to rebuke, and I'm sure
he probably even had questionsabout that.
But it's funny, from oneconversation to the next, jesus
had to discern it, to know whatspirit people were walking in.
As a leader, that's why youhave to be prayed up.

(57:04):
As a pastor, you have to beprayed up.
Why?
Why?
Because if people come to you,you got to be able to discern
what spirit they're in.
You got to discern what is thereason that they're doing it and
discern it.
We'll be able to pick that up.
And if you're a person ofcharacter, you're not insecure,
you're not merely going to feelthreatened.
And they're trying to take myposition.
They're trying to tell me howto do my church, and well, it
doesn't mean that people won'tdo that, but you've got to know

(57:24):
that and you've to ask and howto navigate that in those times.
Are y'all hearing what I'msaying, my good God?
So listen, spiritual authorityversus spiritual abuse.
I'm going to talk a little bitmore.
I might even bring some guestson on my next one.
I'm going to let you knowpretty soon here.
It probably might even be onThursday.
I might be doing an updatetomorrow for our Voices for the

(57:49):
Unborn, our pregnancy center,but I want to go in more because
I want to talk about family.
One of the things that I thinkcaused Miriam and Aaron to get
caught up in that moment is thatthey said wait, this is our
brother Moses, and you have tobe very careful.
Jesus dealt with it as well.
There was a time in Jesus'ministry where his mother came
from the outside and stood onthe outside of his ministry to
try to call him out.
And we know the story where itsays your mother and your
brothers want to see you andJesus looks out there and says

(58:11):
who's my mother and my brother?
But he that doeth the will ofmy father, these are my brothers
and my sisters.
She was trying to cross thatline.
There is a difference.
If you're going to have familyin your ministry, if you're
going to have family influence,you have to have very, very
clear cut conversations.
You have to talk to one another.
There has to be clear cut linesthat there's a business side of

(58:32):
it and there's a family side ofit, and family doesn't come
into business.
But business also doesn't comeinto family.
And you got to have really goodconversations concerning that.
Otherwise the lines can beskewed and people will start
saying wait a minute, that's mybrother, that's my sister.
Well, no, not when they're inchurch, it's not.
It doesn't mean they need, andit goes both ways.
But I'm going to talk aboutthat later on.
I don't have time to go intothat now, but I'm going to have
a part three of this coming upreally soon.

(58:54):
I am so glad that you've tunedin.
I really hope that you havebeen blessed by the show today.
Once again, don't forget tolike, follow, subscribe, share
if you're on YouTube and please,please, please, take a minute
and download the podcast if youhave not downloaded it, because
even if you miss it on Facebook,if you download it and you

(59:14):
subscribe to it as soon as Icome out with a new one, which
this one will be uploaded righthere.
I'm on here live as we speak.
This isn't live to tape, whereI recorded it earlier.
This is me right now.
If you're watching it live, Iam on here live, and don't
forget to leave some comments inthe comment bar if you've been
blessed by this and you knowpeople need to hear this type of

(59:35):
teaching.
A lot of people aren't teachingon this stuff anymore, so a lot
of people are confused.
How do I navigate this stuff?
And it's understandable.
We don't know how, and ifyou're not careful, you'll allow
the spirit of the world tocreep into the spirit of the
church.
So I'm going to talk to you alittle bit more about that.
I that I'm really excited.

(59:55):
I want to thank you all so muchfor your time today.
I want to pray for you before Igo and thank the Lord for each
and every one of you and, like Isaid, I hope that you have
really been blessed by thistoday and that it's really
ministered to you, and I'mreally excited about the next
time I'll be on with you guysand to share some more with you.
So can I pray for you, father,in the name of Jesus?
I just thank for each person,father.
I pray for whether they're aleader, whether they're both,
whether they're a person that'sbeing shepherded.
That, lord, we'll have theunderstanding, we'll have the
right perspective.

(01:00:15):
Lord, we'll lead the correctway.
But, lord, we'll also followthose that are over us the right
way.
That will honor people and,lord, if we should happen to see
a minister that's in error orfalls short, that we will be
honorable, we will be humble,but we'll also cover in the name
of Jesus.
So, lord, I ask your blessingupon your people today that you

(01:00:35):
administer to them.
Lord, there may be some thatneed to go back and make
something right with a pastor orleader.
There may be some that need togo and speak up about some
things.
Lord, there could be somepastors that need to shift a
little bit.
Maybe there's some brokennessinside of some leaders that
needs to be healed so they canbe better leaders as well.
Whatever it might be, god, Ijust thank you for blessing them

(01:00:55):
now and being with them.
In the mighty name of Jesus, wepray Amen, amen, amen.
Well, I love y'all so much.
I thank you for your time.
I pray that you have beenblessed today and I'll look
forward to doing part three withyou all on spiritual authority
versus spiritual abuse.
Thank you once again for all ofyour support.
Keep bringing the love, and I'mgoing to keep bringing the

(01:01:18):
content and the word of God toyou in special ways about
different things that are comingup.
Don't forget to download thepodcast and let others know that
you're part of the Dementia'sfamily.
God bless you and have a greatday.