Rob Sheridan: From Rags To Glitches

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Welcome back to DIRECT Edition, a podcast about nothing and
everything today. Woohoo, bringing you a big
interview. My guest today is Rob Sheridan.
I've been following Rob Sheridan's work with starting
with 9 Inch Nails in the early 2000s, watching all the live
shows that 9 Inch Nails would play, that Rob was a part of his

(00:35):
creative director and designing a lot of the different elements
that you would see on stage. Going into all of his endeavors
with Trent and beyond. You know, the art that he's
created, the comic book he wroteand now working to design this,
the new beautiful stage show that Pearl Jam has been playing

(00:57):
in front of for the last year. And Robbie work is always kind
of just been with me in one way,shape or form.
During Covic, he was doing designs for different clothing
and the masks that I wore while I was a mailman for USPS and
always it just kind of found myself in line with a lot of the
causes that he supports. It's just a all around

(01:18):
fascinating artists visually anddoing a lot of stuff on the
Internet as well. So this conversation is long,
it's like an hour and 45 minutesand we kind of touch on all of
the different aspects of his career with a lot of different
anecdotes and just great storiesand such, the kind of insight
that I really enjoy bringing to this podcast.

(01:41):
So why don't we get started withmy interview with Rob Sheridan.
Good afternoon, everybody. Good morning.
Today's a great interview that I'm going to be bringing to you
with a special guest who has a careers worth of amazing stuff
to talk about. Not just a creative and art

(02:03):
director for 9 Inch Nails, but designing screenshows for them,
designing Pearl James new tour screenshows, Grammy nominated, a
comic writer as well as somebodywho created an empire of
awesome, amazing apparel based on glitch art.
My guest today is Rob Sheridan. Hi, Rob here.

(02:24):
How's it going? Yeah, nice to nice to have you,
even though we're probably somewhere within a three mile
radius of each other right now. Yeah, yeah, nicely at Tacoma
locals. That's right.
That's right. And I mean, my setup is not as
cool as what's going on behind you, which is just a it's, it's
a trip to see that. It's a it, yeah.

(02:46):
It's been a it's it's been fun to have this behind me in, in
the Zoom era, you know, meet with people and, you know, I
remember meeting with some art directors for this video game
that I worked on. They saw this behind me and
they're like, OK, yeah, this is the guy we need.
Yeah, this is what we're lookingfor.

(03:08):
It's nice to it's nice to have it out in the world now that
it's just been my own little personal like wall of Glitch for
for a few years. You know, you could also double
as like some type of weird, you know, 80s villain.
You know, maybe like some futuristic villain that's in the
80s, but he's, you know, he's, he's talking to people in the
future. It's very much my lair because

(03:29):
I'm on the basement, I'm on the basement floor and and this is
just the the cyber cave down here.
Or stay up late making weird experiments.
Well, and those experiments haveled to some amazing stuff that
you've put out into the world inthe last 25 years or so.
And I want to, I want there's somuch to go over.
And it's funny because like our,we, we grew up loving the same

(03:54):
stuff. We're a month and I think a day
apart. I was born November 12th, 79.
I think you're October 11th. All right, very close.
So I, I find when you know, people that are born in the same
era, we all pretty much like thesame stuff and we're inspired by
a lot of the same stuff. And going back, going back,

(04:16):
what's the first? Can you remember the first
artist that you saw work of, that you were like this, that
you could feel that tangibly affected you and maybe started
to set you out on the path that you were eventually on?
I mean, I think it, I think it goes into like different eras
of, of who it was, you know, when I was when I was young, a

(04:41):
young kid, you know, it was likecomic, these superhero comics
and cartoons like this, like comic strips.
Bill, you know, Bill Watterson and Calvin Hobbes was, you know,
like a very early thing that I attached on to.
And I, I, I, when I was in gradeschool, I started drawing little

(05:03):
comic strips of my own. And I, so, you know, I had a
little character named Leroy andhe was suspiciously drawn very
similar to Calvin, you know, andhe got into some adventures kind
of similar to Calvin's, you know, And, but it was, it was my
way of exploring, you know, thatworld.
And, and so, you know, Bill Waterson's voice and style and,

(05:26):
and everything was this kind of mirrored to my own life as a, as
an imaginative only child. So I really connected with that
early on. And then as I, you know, as I
grew older, the types of artistsand types of art changed.
But you know, Calvin Hobbes really made me think about like

(05:47):
art as a career, art as storytelling, art as as an
expression of, of so many different ideas for the first
time, I think when I was really young.
And, you know, I like I said, we're we're from the same era
and I feel like we might be the last kids that grew up looking
at cartoon strips, you know, I mean, I know they still exist,
but they they were still huge when, you know, I had the page a

(06:10):
day far side calendar, which. Was yeah.
Every year, Yeah, folksy Now, a little a little a little thing
on your desk and you pull off one piece of paper a day and see
one cartoon. But the.
Humor in it was amazing. Oh yeah, The far side was it was

(06:31):
dark. It was great.
I loved Far Side. I had all the books and
everything. I it's somewhere around here
that that big one that they compiled like every far side.
Oh yeah, into one giant thing. But I think I mean don't, we'll
be here, we'll be stuck on this the entire time if you can be
going on this. But I, I really do think there's
something to our micro generation of like the last, the

(06:53):
last era that grew up like old enough to have grown up in a, in
the kind of tactile analog offline era, but just young
enough to still be a part of thedigital era, you know, and not,
and like not have it be like something that was there our
whole lives, but also not be ourparents who are, you know, who
don't know how to attach APDF orwhatever.
You know, we kind of, we came along to the ride, but we're

(07:16):
rooted in an entirely in a childhood that did not exist
after our generation. Right, right, and.
We'll never again, you know, andpeople always like, oh, you
know, everything, everything always changes.
Every generation says that. But you can point to a very,
very different type of change here that's never existed
before, which is the the Internet, you know, like that.

(07:36):
That's that's not a normal thing.
That's not just so we got TV or something.
It's a complete rewrite of how society is struck through it,
you know, and how how we access media and how culture comes to
us and goes from us. It it's weird you whether it's a
good thing or a bad thing, is it?
You know, it's up to each personto decide, but we are undeniably

(07:58):
the last, the last micro generation to experience it, you
know? Yeah, yeah, it's not lost on me
to kind of remind myself of thatand in conversation with people
to always bring that up because,right, it's, it's the Internet
and it's also cell phones, right?
We we had, we had, you know, andwe, yeah, you said we could do

(08:19):
this all day, 4 hours of They will never know what call
waiting is. They'll never know what a busy
single sounds like anymore. I hate it when I, when I say
those things I hate, I hate hearing it come out of my mouth.
It feels like sort of boomer. It sounds like such a boomer
stuff to say. Like all back in my day, we
walked three miles uphill. It's really like the, the more I
think about it, the more it's like it's not just a back in my

(08:43):
day thing. It's like I, I think we have to
look at some of those things andtry to take some lessons from
them because it's not like, it'snot like the way that we
interact with everything now on our phones and social media and
everything. It's not like that's organic.
It's not like that was destined to happen.
It was a natural flow of things.It's something that happened

(09:03):
very fast without anyone really stopping to ask, is this good or
is this bad? Who's making the decisions of
how this is affecting us as a society?
And like, you know, being able to, to reflect on what changed,
why and by who is, is kind of important.
When, when I'm, you know, got a kid and I'm looking at like how

(09:26):
that kid experiences the world and the lenses and who built the
lenses that, that reflect the world back to him.
You know, the, it's, it's worth looking.
I, I think through that mirror alittle bit, not, not just
nostalgically, but creep, you know?
Yes, and those conversations become more and more important

(09:47):
literally every hour. I mean, we could just look at
what happened in the last 24 hours with a lot of this AI
stuff that's getting pushed forward.
And I'm even seeing it in emails.
I just got an e-mail from a couple of different apps that
are talking about integrating AIand I'm like OK I'm
unsubscribing for this shit you.Know my, my, my wife that she's

(10:08):
gone, she's gone like totally dark mode on like she's like
deleted her social media and waslike, I'm, I can't, I'm done
like this. This was the yeah.
And I, and I get it. I, I, I feel like I would if I
didn't need it for, for everything.
I do, you know, but but she, youknow, she's like, I don't even,
I don't see anything anymore. But I got an e-mail from like a

(10:30):
just a, one of the normal services that we use for like
managing accounts, some something, you know, one of
those bank services. And she's like, look at how this
e-mail is written. It, it reads like sign, like
doomsday sci-fi, the way it's describing how AI will take all
of this stuff. But they're trying to sell you a
pitch of what their AI can do. But it sounds apocalyptic the

(10:52):
way it's written. Well, it was probably written by
AI first of all, And it's, but it's, it's weird when the
marketing pitches start to soundapocalyptic in the, in their
like what they're describing automating.
And, and especially when you having, you know, myself spent a
lot of time unafraid to explore and, and having a better

(11:16):
understanding than apparently most of these companies of what
it can actually do and what it can't, because every day I read
some pitch of what they're saying it can do.
I'm like, you can't do that unless you want me to spend
twice as much time checking the work.
And at every step, yeah, you know.
So it's, it's terrifying for, for so much and so many people.

(11:36):
And, you know, I, yeah, I, I can't get a grasp on it.
But going back to the, you know,the back in my day thing, the
one thing that I do love that we're all experiencing in one
way or another is the stuff thatwe grew up loving in the
physical media world is now on the rise again because
everybody's kind of pushing backagainst forcing the digital.

(11:59):
And I do love that we are seeingVHS and, you know, we're seeing
more cassette tapes. And obviously final is, you
know, the the rebound of vinyl's25 years old now, you know, but
books, comics, all that stuff. Yeah, but it feels, I mean, it
feels more like there's a, you know, the rebound of vinyl had

(12:22):
had its own kind of, you know, identity around sound, whatever
back then. But now it's tied in with the
rebound of I see people doing actually making some imagery for
a friend's CD release right now and another friend's cassette
release. And you know, I just, I just put
out Avhs. So just a little homemade little

(12:43):
art project one. But what you see, I think is
just people like yearning for the friction of, of, of sort of
the way we used to interact withmedia that that forces you to
engage with it with more senses,to spend more time with it to,
to, you know, to just connect with it a little bit more.

(13:04):
And not only in terms of how you, you know, experience the
media that's on it, but also, I think just on a sensory level.
Like, I mean, I, I always felt this way, obviously like tactile
things, but having a, a, a kid who's, who's too right now is
like watching how human beings develop and how much, you know,

(13:27):
sensory input and, and, and touching and, and, and
interacting and understanding how things connect to other
things is so important to keep our brains created.
It's, it's how we, it's how we experience the world.
And, you know, seeing, seeing how interesting it is for him
to, to, you know, put VHS tapes in the thing and see how that
works, You know, versus like just pawing at my phone trying

(13:50):
to swipe a picture of something.And it's like, you know, it's,
it's, it's like we're, we're not, we're not, we're meant to
do all these things, you know, we're meant to age more of our
senses and stuff. So I think it's, I think it's
great to see the physical comingback.
And they've, they've really madea, they've done a good job of,
you know, of making a case for it with, you know, showing how

(14:13):
crassly they'll just delete things off of streaming
services. And like, you know, suddenly my
suddenly my giant hard drive of of media doesn't seem so archaic
anymore, you know? Plus the fact that like your
association with 9 Inch Nails and creating a, you know, art
for these physical products, it's like, yeah, that there's so

(14:35):
much to it. It's, it's not just the putting
it in, it's the opening it up. It's looking at the artwork, you
know, it's all that. You know, it's it's interesting
you bring that up because I've just been looking back on the
20th anniversary of Nine Inch Nails with Teeth, which really
special album to me because I I got to create all the art and
art direct. Yep, there, there it is.

(14:56):
And that kind, I guess the art direct that one's like, you
know, end to end, make make all the visuals for it and conceive
how, you know how the whole campaign played out.
But that that album that the CD release ended up being this very
minimal thing because we were trying to do this big elaborate
package as as was kind of the Nines Jones way back then.

(15:16):
And the record label was, was like pushing back on us and, and
not wanting to spend the money on it.
And, and because that was right at the turn where things were
moving 2005, things were moving digital.
And what became people were likerealizing that they were paying
way too much for C DS and you know, and you know, MPMP threes

(15:37):
and Napster and Limewire and allthat were on the rise.
The music industry was at a tricky point.
Things were turning and they didn't want to spend any money
on CD packaging at all, you know, So, you know, and so we
kind of like, we kind of just did this, this like reaction

(15:58):
reactionary, like, OK, you know what?
You don't want to give us our package that we want.
Fine, we're not doing a package.And so the album has this very,
very minimal with a link to download this the most
ridiculous album art poster thatyou can.
Yeah, it's got all the lyrics. Like it took me forever to make
that thing. And.
And it was like print your own, you know.

(16:20):
And so people did they fans got together and anyone with access
to a large format printer at that time through their work or
whatever was like, you know, a hero on the message boards and
we're making for other people. And I still have a couple of the
ones we've produced. But that was a kind of like that
was just trying trying to hold on to the idea of physical

(16:43):
packaging while the industry wassaying, yeah, that's the past,
that's the past, That's the pastfor reading for whatever.
A few years later when we had more independence and then when
National said more independence,we were able to do some like
really nice deluxe editions and stuff like that, but but with
teeth fell right in the odd spotin between.
So, so it's been interesting thinking about that and, and how

(17:05):
much things have swung back around, you know, from from
where that was. Oh, and it's also a testament to
the fact that the music industry's biggest enemy has
always been the music industry. They keep making wrong decision
after wrong decision. And you know, and now obviously
it's become a, you know, it, let's just put it all on the

(17:27):
artist and damage them as much as we can.
But we don't we don't have to gointo late stage capitalism too
much right now. A.
Whole another couple hours. Yeah, this the 24 hour podcast
of Dave and Rob just going over everything.
Many complaints about the state of everything.

(17:53):
So, so dialing it back is one ofmy my big through line of all
the things that I put out is talking about like as a modern
successor, an ode to classic fandom and fan scenes when I'm
talking about comics, but just fandom in general.
And that's like your, your gateway is, is fandom.
But before the 9 Inch Nails fan site, I have to remind people

(18:16):
that you helped popularize maybethe 1st meme of all time with
the website of the Dancing Baby.That's right.
That is my my earliest day. I think my earliest claimed fame
is, is possibly making accidentally the first Internet

(18:37):
meme. And it's, it's interesting as I,
when I, for, for, for those unaware, I started working with
Nash Nails at age 19 because I made a fan page for them in the
90s when, when I was, you know, learning how to do HTML and
graphics and stuff in high school.

(18:58):
And I was making fan pages. So, but right before that I'd
been testing my, you know, I'm building a home page, testing my
HTML skills and, and stuff. And so, you know, I was looking
for things to like build a page for.
And I had a page of like weird stuff, you know, your homepage
back in the 90s and you'd be like links and like neat things

(19:20):
or whatever. And I just put like weird stuff
that I'd find on there. Like I had to scour like random
BBS's and FTP sites and stuff and just find unmarked weird
files, you know? There's no good distribution
method, especially for things like videos whatever back then.
So you just find like BB cha onedot Avi on somebody's server

(19:40):
where they had like, you know, pictures of, of cool stuff from
the movies or something, you know, OK, what's this?
I don't know. And, and it was, you know, you
didn't know until you waited an hour for it to download or
whatever, just. Little by little by little
you're. Thinking is it just going to be
is it going to be like a movie clip?
Is it porno? We don't know.
We find out and it was this likecreepy baby dancing and made it,

(20:03):
you know, made with like. At the time, realistic computer
graphics, but just, but very like uncanny valley.
Just just this soulless dead eyed meat puppet baby.
Just I thought I was, you know, 16 or 17 where I thought it was
funny. I just thought it was weird and
creepy. So I put it on my page and

(20:25):
people kept asking for it and I just didn't emailing me like
asking me for just for whoever stumbled into my own personal
home page at that time. And so I made a little home page
just to where you could get thatfile because I saw it was being
passed around in emails or whatever.
That led to the producer of Ali Mcbeal, I guess, finding it and

(20:48):
he wanted to put it in his TV show.
Unbeknownst to me is they tracked down who actually made
it, which was a software, a 3D graphic software company.
It was just one of the tech demos that they'd put in on the
installation CD of their software, right?
So, and they had, you know, theyhad no idea.
It was like going viral 90s style.

(21:10):
But because of the Sally Mcbeal thing, it broke out into like
the real world. So I was kind of, there were
other things that were popular on the Internet before then, but
this was the first one to break out into mainstream pop culture.
So I, I was, and then it became so deeply embarrassing because
it was like the, it was like thelamest, like mall chaos humor.

(21:30):
Like it was just like, it was just so lame.
And I, you know, I kind of made it happen, but I had nothing to
do with it. And I didn't make the baby.
I didn't get any money or anything, you know, so so when I
got hired in 19 hours, I was like trying to be cool.
Like these are my heroes odds and I'm trying to be like really

(21:51):
cool try. I did not mention that at all.
Did not want to be associated with this, with this, you know,
normie mall humor, you know, stuff.
So I never just never said anything about it at Welsh nails
and I just let it recess into like the deep backgrounds of my
life. It's a one day, like years

(22:11):
later, I'm talking with a friendand I just made a made an off,
made an offhand joke about it. And it's friend of mine at the
time, she was like 10 years ago.She was like younger than me in
their early 20s. I was in my late 30s.
And so she was a different generation.
She was like, she was like, wait, you did the dancing baby?

(22:35):
Like, you know about that just. Yeah, that was like one of the
first things I ever watched on acomputer when I was like a baby
or, you know, like, and this wasa, you know, this was a girl who
would been a very young child atthat time.
So this was like a funny thing from this.
And it's it was like so trippy to me.
Like I'm responsible for your nostalgia, like you're nostalgia

(22:58):
and that like put a different skin on for me.
It wasn't this like lame thing that I was too cool for when I
was, you know, in college or whatever, but it, it was this
like, Oh yeah. That would be like your first,
you know, like the, your first like YouTube video that you saw,
but the 90s version of that. Yeah.
And so I, you know, I brought itup with a friend of mine who was
a, you know, an old tech guy andhe's like, I think it, we, we

(23:23):
started putting together, I think that was actually the
first man, I think. And suddenly it was like, wait,
now. And now I could just like
reviewed the whole thing and like saw it through this lens of
like, wow, I was a part of Internet culture history like
that. That's kind of cool.
And then and then like the, you know, the like, anniversary or
whatever came around. And, and so like I ended up on a

(23:45):
National Geographic show, like talking about the origins of the
Internet and memes and stuff like that.
So it's, it's kind of a funny, like random feather in my cap
now to just be like, Oh yeah, names.
That's my fault. All of them.
They're all. I mean, it's, it's interesting
because when you think about thepopularization of computer

(24:08):
things, right, there's some of it that speaks to certain, you
know, niche groups and a lot of us remember different things.
But that because it went mainstream, because it ended up
on a Fox Show and Ally Mcbeal was like one of the most popular
shows of the time, if not the most popular.
Like it's the human, the we all remember it in some way, shape

(24:31):
or form. And then, like you said, it goes
to another generation. Yeah, and, and I have them, I, I
had these VHS tapes that my mom had recorded at the time and I,
I digitized them, I put them on my YouTube for parity.
But they're they're clips of some, some of them have young me
in them. And they're clips of TV shows at
the time, like mainstream, like network television.

(24:53):
There's this Bryant Gumbel show in there.
And they're just like, they're talking about it.
Like it's the weirdest thing this baby can't the Internet
what you know, and it's like interviewing people about it.
And it's like they're not talking about like the thing
that happened on Ellie Mcbeal. They're like trying to grasp
with the idea that this is just a thing that came off the

(25:15):
Internet. Yeah, yeah.
That mean. And it's it's a really weird
tone where they're just like it that, you know, you that would
that might have drawn a line right there of who was going to
move forward with understanding the Internet and who was like,
oh, this makes no sense to me. I'm out.

(25:35):
We all lost some some parents ability to progress with
technology at that time. That was that was the day that
they lost it. That wasn't the first time
though, or that wouldn't be the last time that you were on some
type of new show, right? Weren't you on the inside?
Was it Inside Edition that did where they thought 9 Inch Nails
murdered somebody? Oh, no, I was on so hard copy

(25:56):
hard copy hard copy did a thing about 9 inch nails like in the
late 80s, like 8990 before my time and where they were
reporting on this like snuff video that the FBI found that
turned out to be from 19 Oh, down in it video when they're
recording it and they tried to mount the camera on a balloon

(26:19):
and it flew away. And then the ATF found the tape
and it was like some guy LinkedIn they're turning an
overhead shot of Trent like deadfield.
And so like they did a whole investigation.
So Hard Copy was out there like,and it's like, it's so like hard
copy, like the way that they're talking about like Trent,
they're like, this is Trent of the band 9 Inch Nails, who

(26:40):
thought it was funny to film this.
He's got an earring in his nose.And so then years later, but
still before I was working with 9 Inch Nails, Hard Copy came out
to interview me about the dark side of the dancing baby.
That's OK, that's what it was. They had found the like the
people, you know, in in true name, you know, nature.

(27:03):
People had started people found that, you know, that was a
character you could add in that character studio and they'd
start doing, you know, their ownremixes of it.
So there was one where the baby's like he's like naked and
drunk. He's like hold him stumbling and
like peeing when he walks. And there's one where he gets
hit by a car because naturally the like the the kind of, you

(27:27):
know, the the Barney rage, you know, was eager to go somewhere.
So there were people who were hating on the dancing baby and
of course way. So they hard copy came to like
try and find the scandals in this some somehow there's got to
be a scandal in this dancing baby thing.
And they I wasn't even I I was Iwouldn't give them anything.
There's like, I'm on the interview and I'm like just

(27:49):
barely. I'm like, yeah, I don't know
that one. Yeah, Yep.
There's nothing here, guys. It's just, it's just the
Internet. They interviewed the wrong teen
weirdo to try and get answers out of.
Yeah, I was being very wholesometoo.
I was like, no, I don't have that one on my website because
it's, you know, it's for kids and families, so.

(28:11):
So you know, they, as you've said, the 99, you're in college,
you went, it's funny, you went to Pratt.
A whole bunch of my friends werePratt at that time and you know,
they, they emailed you to interview you or just to say,
hey, we're doing a new 9 Inch Nails website.
We want you to to head it up. Yeah, I just, I got AI just got

(28:33):
an e-mail and they from the publicist who was working, you
know, was representing 9 Inch Nails at the time.
And they, you know, at this point in 99, the beginning of
99, really most brands, bands, etcetera don't have the websites

(28:54):
yet, you know, few and far between.
And so they were trying to buildand there were tons of fan sites
of the whole community already that where mine existed.
And they were looking to build the first official 9 channels
website. So they wanted to like find some
fans who were already in that web space making things and
stuff to reach out to to talk about it.

(29:17):
And they said, yeah, do you wantto come down to to New Orleans
and and interview essentially for this?
And I was like, what, you know, like surreal, you know, it's
like your your favorite band. You get picked posters on the on
your walls and you made a website about it.
And then all of a sudden, yeah, I just got into art school in

(29:39):
New York. It was a big deal to like this
tips and be able to try and figure out how to do that.
And it was my dream and get to New York and, and then all of a
sudden it's like, hey, mom actually quit school and go to
live in New Orleans and doing rock band.
But that's something. That is, I mean, that's, you

(30:01):
know, it happens here and there,but like, you don't hear about
it. You hear about it years later,
but your journey through that because the NIN fan community
was and still is super tight. It's it's a legendary thing, but
it's your real life. So it it it's kind of nuts in
that regard as an artist and going down there for the first

(30:25):
time, you getting to know the band and Trent and all that.
Were there some quick bonds overany art or anything like like
shared interest in that regard that you found a kinship with as
a young person with these, you know, well, they're not not
super old, but it was like you're looking up to them.
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, the, you know,

(30:45):
Trent is he's, you know, 15 or so years older than me, you
know, so that's a that's pretty solid difference.
So it was not, you know, not like my dad old, but it was
like, you know, he was kind of like became like a older

(31:07):
brother, kind of like figure, you know, to me.
But so it's very intimidating, obviously going down there and
and being having no experience with anything other than my own
little Internet projects and including one that I hoped I
didn't hear about the dancing baby.
And, and then, you know, gettingthere and, and being one of

(31:30):
four, I think other people who were selected to come down and,
and meet for this job, one of whom runs, he still is, runs an
in hotline to this day. Maddie's a friend.
He's, he's great. He's, he's done a ton of cool
stuff. And he was already like, he knew
much more about like programmingand this other guy there who had

(31:53):
a whole portfolio of concert photography.
And like, I, I felt like my imposter syndrome was just like,
I felt young and inexperienced and what am I doing here?
And and then to your question inin sitting down talking with
Trent, we just kind of bonded and it was like, we especially
started talking about video games and Quake and oh, you, you

(32:16):
play Quake. I'm like, yeah, we started
talking about that. And, and I think, I think that
was, I don't know, I was less experienced, but something about
that, something about that spark, you know, and, and
talking about Quake somehow pushed me into the, into the
job. And, you know, and, you know,
it's, it's cool that he that he felt that there was something

(32:39):
there worth worth checking out. And we, you know, we had a good,
really good creative bond from that so and so.
And that bond yielded 15 or so years of work.
And I I, you know, very happy and honored.
I don't know to have experiencedpretty much every iteration of

(33:01):
everything you ever did with them live or, you know, physical
media or whatever. I mean, you know, starting with
the stuff with with teeth, but then going into the year 0, the
game, the stage shows, the lights.
I mean, like, you know, I used to tell people you can go see a
show, you can go see a concert, but you can go see 9 Inch nails.

(33:23):
You will you will get everythingthat you want for the price of
that ticket because it is like you come into your own.
And I really think it was after year 0 when like the everything
just kind of went up and the visuals were just insane.
And then going into the slip. But I mean your, your embrace,

(33:46):
embracing of technology seems tobe kind of what everything kind
of got better and better and better.
Was it always like, did you always have like, kind of
anyway, yes. Were you supplied with toys to
play with, to experiment with, to bring these visuals up to a
level that nobody was doing at that time?

(34:09):
Yeah. I mean, it was well, really it
was this that I think the point that you're Speaking of which
which is the especially in termsof the live shows you you're
talking about what what other people, other fans always clue
into is like kind of the like life changing tour for them was
the lights in the sky tour, which the one 2008 right after

(34:33):
year 0. So it's kind of the year 0 tour,
but also for those other albums at the time.
And that was the one that like, you know, it took everything
we'd learned from the previous tours, but it propelled it.
And really the the key twist there was pairing us up with

(34:53):
Moment Factory, who was a a interactive production company
who'd mostly done theatrical stuff.
They did a lot of they were doing Cirque du Soleil shows and
installations based on Montreal.But rock concerts was not a
thing, you know, it wasn't the type of thing that you put what
they do into. And it was kind of, it was their

(35:17):
technology mixed with our kind of artistic sensibilities and,
and, and then the kind of the vibe of nine snails and
everything we'd done visually and learned up to that point.
Like all that kind of coming together in the in the perfect
storm. I think it was probably Roy

(35:38):
Bennett. Roy Bennett's a lighting
designer, very, very famous lighting designer who had been
designing 9 Inch Nails light shows since the 90s self
destruct tour and then and they've been doing all the tours
with us. I think it was probably him who
who brought Moment Factory to the table.

(35:59):
And we were a little uncertain about it because it seemed like
a lot of like this interactivityand a lot of like, you know,
Turner was always very wary of like doing too many like tricks
and, and, you know, like choreography, you know, stuff
that we had to, it had to remain, you know, a rock show,
you know, but, you know, so they, it seemed like it was

(36:21):
going to be like maybe too much of that.
And, and then we all just, we got, we got in there and we just
started working through it. And moment Factory brought this
completely different kind of sensibility, but this incredible
technology. And, and with Roy, you know,
we're designing the stage lightsand then Trent and I like going

(36:41):
in there every day and seeing, OK, what can this technology do?
What can this do? And like it was, it was really
the result of just like many, many, many days of just getting
in there and having, you know, having me as, as the creative
director, that also having an artist who was very interested
in, in tune with all that stuff and was in there being very

(37:04):
involved in every decision. So I mean, that was a it was a
massive, massive undertaking of a lot of people that just kind
of created this perfect storm where we we were able to kind of
tastefully bring just the right amount of this other theatrical
world that was living in a different text base than the
concert world. Bring in just enough to elevate

(37:26):
concerts, but make them feel still like rock concerts, just
like something new, you know? And and it really was it was it
was very special tour. And and that's the thing people
that that in the year 0 Arg are kind of things people would
bring up to me as like very, youknow, defining for them.

(37:47):
And that's cool. Because when you think about it,
because you're a fan, like you watch the pretty hate machine
downward spiral era and you're integrated into the fragile era,
and that was one. But then how do you how do you
do things to keep people their eyes popping out of their head
while their ears are feeling allof this amazing music that's

(38:09):
happening? You know, he's creating new
music. And the Arg, the year zero thing
was nobody had done it. Nothing.
I mean, like, I know there was alittle bit of it, but nothing of
that scope that felt small for the fans, but was huge in in
really it really what it was doing.

(38:29):
It was, yeah. I mean that that was another
case where like we found the right collaborators from a
different world, which is 42 entertainment and and again, it
it you know, it happened to be this perfect storm of, of Trent
had had created this album that that was unlike anything he had

(38:53):
done before. And at the one point I hadn't I
hadn't heard, you know, the album yet or anything.
He was working on it and I, you know, after, you know, after
living in the studio for like the fragile and with teeth and
stuff, like and hearing every iteration of the songs all the
time. By this point, I wasn't, I

(39:14):
wasn't living in this in the same place trying to home
studio. So and I kind of liked not
hearing it all the time through.So I'd get to like actually kind
of hear something that he'd beenworking on.
So I, you know, I went over to Assassin.
He's like, OK, I got to play this music and but here's all
the lyrics because there's like this whole story, like it's not

(39:34):
like it's not written the usual way that, you know, like where
it's, you know, very internal. This is like a whole thing.
And and so I was just like sat there with all these papers and
I was like, I've got my wheels spinning.
I was like adding ideas to the mythology and all this stuff.
I was just like, couldn't believe it.
And it is questioned to me was how do we, how do I tell you,

(39:58):
you know, all these ideas that Ihave, all this stuff that fueled
the, the, all the stuff that's behind each song.
There's only songs, but behind it is all this, this mythology
and whatever. How do I bring that out to the
album without it being like justa long thing you read or
something like that? You know what?

(40:19):
What's the he, he, he kept referencing, you know?
Being a being a kid and poring over the, the liner notes in a,
in a vinyl package. And what's the equivalent?
Is there some new version of that that we can do?
And I had just seen, I'd just gotten like pulled into the, the
AI artificial intelligence campaign that for the movie

(40:44):
where they'd like the trailers were very, very mysterious.
And, you know, not much was known about it except that it
was this Kubrick project that Steven Spielberg had taken on.
And they weren't really showing much of anything from the film.
But the the trailers had like, you know, I noticed that there
were weird characters that showed up, you know, highlighted
in the credits and, and it led to a secret website that was

(41:06):
like fiction of the movie and stuff.
And I'd just been like, I'd justbeen fascinated with all that.
And I was like, you know, there's this thing that they've
been doing for movies. So we started looking into it
and, and I was just thinking like, maybe we could do
something like this. Maybe we could like hide some of
this stuff online and in terms like, let's find out who does,

(41:28):
who makes this, Let's find out who does this.
And you know, it's one of those things that was like it was
unheard of because movie promotional budgets are a vastly
different thing than an album promotional budget, especially
in the post music industry in the thousands, you know, And so
it just wasn't, you know, no one, no, no sane person would

(41:51):
put that much marketing effort into an album at that point.
But we we've found them 42 entertainment.
We met with them and they were like really inspiring and cool.
And the the lead, one of the oneof the main people there at the
time, Alex Liu, he was like a huge Nash nails fan and was
really excited about all this. And and so it was like, how do

(42:14):
we make this happen? And, and trans pitch to the, to
the record label was don't spend, take all of your
marketing budget, all of the music video budget, everything.
Just combine all that and give it to us to just bend on this
thing, you know, and just trust me, just but and he's like, and,
and here's the thing, you, the record label, you cannot be

(42:37):
involved at all. And, and you know, he certainly
had a good relationship with, with Jimmy Ivy and, and, and
they, they had a lot of trust. There was still some sense of,
you know, big record labels connected to the era when they
believed in artists and whateverit was still hanging on there.
So, you know, they said, OK, we're not trying to you've

(42:58):
earned this artistically that, you know, to be able to have us
go along with it. And and we knew there was it was
really crucial to not have the label involved at all because
they every we knew like we started self releasing because
we knew that as soon as you sendthe masters out for
manufacturing or whatever, it leaks on the Internet.
Yeah. So we had to keep them out

(43:19):
completely, but we needed their money to pay for this thing,
right. So it was a really it was
another one of those things where it was like it happened at
the time it did and it could nothave happened before and it
would never happen again becauseall the stars aligned.
And, and I think one of the reasons people, one of the many

(43:40):
reasons people remember as fun they as they do is because it
also is the community, like you said, small but but big.
It was reflective of how the thehow the Internet was at that
time, which it no longer is, right?
It was a different version of the Internet where that
something like that could happenand we could spend another hour

(44:02):
going into all the events. Why that can't happen now, but
it you know, it it really like, I think that hits a strange
point of like Internet nostalgiaas well.
The way that that whole campaignplayed out and, and it was
fascinating to, to watch and to,and to learn how 42
entertainment like understood that landscape of the Internet

(44:25):
and how to put things out there and, and track how they would
spread and, and how they would pace the game and, and, and kind
of, you know, react to how things were playing out and, and
understand that there was only so much they could control and
then have to take turns. And I mean, it was, it was

(44:46):
incredible. It was a fascinating experience.
I learned a lot from it and and just very, very glad to have
been involved and like that. Well, we wait.
We wait for the day when there'sa full length documentary about
it. But you know, could you just
imagine the record label? Like, OK, wait, you want to
kidnap these people and bring into a warehouse with a SWAT

(45:08):
team? Yeah, they would never say yes.
We didn't, yeah, we didn't tell anything about but that that was
a funny one because it was Trim was after we did that whole
thing, Trim was getting calls from this like panic calls from
his lawyer. Did you did you have someone

(45:30):
detained by the cops and like held overnight and turns whoa,
no, we didn't do that. We just there's some people in
advance. And but it turned out that some
of the people who had been part of that experience were were
like creating their own fiction.They're going on, you know, in
the story and like writing things that didn't happen and
our lawyers were freaking out. It was when you know.

(45:54):
It was when you know the the marriage of of fiction and
reality on the Internet was still a fun thing.
Not it. Wasn't a terrifying.
Thing. Democracy crushing thing.
Yeah, yeah. And who would have known that
the entire storyline of year Zero would play out,
unfortunately, really much how it how it was written.

(46:19):
Jesus, man. I mean, like you, I think you
brought to light some of that stuff during COVID.
You were talking about like someof the similarities and I was
just like, this is I mean, music, art, you know, these
things, they reflect reality. And then you know, it's life
imitating art imitating life, all that.
But you, you create. I was your creation artist

(46:40):
resistance. Was that completely your idea
that that piece of it? No, no, that was everything.
Everything in that campaign was some collaboration.
Everybody we, the art, the actual flag, the art is just
that, that was created by 42's designers.
And but, you know, it was like they would bring back a whole

(47:01):
page of designs and we would talk through it and say that.
And, you know, so it was a, thatwhole thing was just a whole big
collaborative effort with Trenton 42 and myself.
So yeah, it's, it's, it's wild. It's, it's, it's wild to have
been kind of just looking at theworld and saying here's what's

(47:25):
going to happen if we keep on this path.
And then, you know, I think there was a certain feeling
shortly after that that maybe maybe things weren't going to be
going down that path. And then they were like, oh,
yeah, actually, yeah, we're, we're still, we are actually
still in that path. We, we just, we just kind of
took a slight detour. But really it's all still

(47:47):
happening. So worst, worst, worse and
Dumber than you could have ever imagined, Yes.
By far Dumber. That's the that's the thing we
we did not predict is is the. Yeah, yeah.
But getting back to maybe some more positive things, you know,

(48:08):
obviously your time with 9th Nails is amazing.
How to Destroy Angels was such an interesting thing that I I
just wanted to talk about a little bit.
I got to see the show at the Apollo, which was fucking
beautiful. I mean, it was fantastic.
Yeah. How does that like, you know,
like because you're not known asa musician, but you were playing
since live. So how does that kind of come

(48:30):
into fold with you? I I wasn't actually playing
since I was I was affecting, I was affecting video with the
MIDI controller. So, so, and it was like
basically what what that, yeah, it's some sometime from like the
the band kind of starting in 2010 or whatever.

(48:53):
Between that point and the like the album in 20/12/2013, Trent
wanted to like acknowledge a kind of collective, like, you
know, that the visual aspect wasgoing to be as important as the
music. And like the, the way of kind of
acknowledging that and making itfeel like more of a collective.

(49:14):
Part of that was like people like Alessandro coming into the
live band, you know, and, and contributing some aspects to
that where the, his remix becamelike the main thing.
And, and then the other part of it was like acknowledging the
visuals was just having me as part of the collective.
And so being on stage, you know,like was a, was a kind of a, you

(49:36):
know, it was a way of representing that like the
artist who made all the things that are surrounding us is like
part of this. And so I worked with mode
Factory on some effects that I could do to include glitching
and other, you know, real time effects that I could do to
manipulate the visuals that I made on the stage, you know, at

(49:57):
the time. And so I was doing that with a,
you know, with a synth controller, which is, which is
just like a fun way to play the visuals on the stage.
It's it's it's it's often misunderstood that I had
something to do with the music. I make no claims to be.
I wasn't, I was a kid. I just I didn't, I went to

(50:20):
visual route, but it was very cool because, you know, because
it did play to my old musical instincts when I was young of
like, you know, rhythmically interacting with the visualism.
It was, I mean, that was that thing.
That year was so busy. That decade was so busy so much
that that tour was so short. It was, it feels like kind of a

(50:43):
pretty, but it was like really crazy to do, you know?
Yeah, I'm playing my first. I'm playing my first concert.
I've never played in a concert on stage before.
Oh, really? Like, I didn't know anything.
Yeah, I just doing doing the visual.
But yeah, I'm going to be on stage.
Well, where are you playing Coachella?
Surreal. They're really surreal to look

(51:05):
back on. But we were everything was go,
go, go. We were doing charts.
Where's that year? And I was I was doing all the
all the design of all of them and still doing all the nails
stuff. We had releases coming out.
We did the album. I did all the art for the host
angels. And amidst that it was like I
was like, Oh yeah, yeah, obviously, yeah.
We got to play shows. Now I'm going to look at that
play shows. But I look back on it, it's

(51:27):
like, holy shit. That was actually kind of that
was kind of crazy. I mean, it's, it's kind of cool
to you know, in a very like my dad used to be cool sort of way
showing like my kid, like the the videos of like Coachella.
That's your dad there. That's yeah, that guy on stage.
Yeah. Yeah.
And, and in, you know, 10 years or so, it's gonna be like, what
was Coachella? Well, this was Coachella.

(51:48):
This is what it is now, but thiswas Coachella.
Yeah, but before it was just before it was just known as the
fireplaces that it's all burningon fire.
People actually go there. Yeah, breathe outside.

(52:08):
So in in all of this, you know, in in this portion of your
career, as we can see with the album art glitch, glitch art
becomes more and more your thing.
Is it something that were you fascinated by, you know, like
our old TV's and seeing that, like where does that kind of
start with what becomes your your business at this point is

(52:30):
Glitch Goods. It it came well, part of it was
by, by the 2013, by the by the how to strangles time.
It was kind of something that I would become known for and I was
always looking for kind of new directions for my interest in

(52:51):
VHS tapes and all that stuff hadbeen, you know, miserable since,
you know, growing up in that era, of course.
But most of the glitching I've done, especially right before
that was related to digital. It really started, it really
started at the turn of the century or turn of the
Millennium when there was a it was kind of being used as a way

(53:18):
to express the kind of strange unease of the world turning to
this like new digital, you know,everything, everything was
digital. It was that was the whole thing
whatever talking about the Millennium and there was a there
was a strange. I was, I was very much a

(53:39):
technological guy. I was very much moving forward,
but there was a strange like unease of, you know, the way it
felt to go from feeling like there was something you were
holding to it all becoming digital.
And it was all being touted as this new, new technology, better
in every way. But like you're looking at it

(53:59):
and it's like, OK, well, this like this video, like come on,
guys, it looks like shit. You know, like just impressed
all the hell. You know, like a lot of stuff, a
lot of the new technologies of the future were not that great
initially, but I was still, you know, I was excited about like I
was, I was, you know, we did oneof the first commercial, you

(54:22):
know, releases that was all doneon TV.
It was like home software and stuff.
But and so I was very excited about all the future, but I also
was like wanting to like pull some of these like strange
little bits that that no one wanted to kind of acknowledge
the flaws in the technology. I want to pull them out.
And they were fascinated me and I started making glitch art with

(54:44):
them leading up to his teeth in the early 2000s.
And it wasn't really considered.It wasn't really considered art
in any mainstream way at that time because like those are the
things you're supposed to be hiding and glossing over when
you're using these new technologies.
And I was like dragging them out, you know, just really like
playing with like MPEG compression and breaking images

(55:06):
and, and, and TV damaging DV tape from so, so my turn as as
digital technology became more perfected, perfected and which
art in the digital sense was hadcome more into the mainstream by
the 20 tens, I was thinking backto my time of damaging DV tapes

(55:31):
to get to get digital artifacts out.
It's really cool because you, you damaged the tape, but the
artifacts that it creates are digital because it's data in
there. And so I wanted to go, I wanted
to kind of circle all the way back to analog now because I was
feeling the pull towards that texture and I wanted to take
some of the, the kind of themes that I've done back to that.
So I ended up finding a lot likein typical analog form.

(55:56):
It's like there was, there's a lot more between point A and
point B. You know, there's a whole
infinite spectrum in there. Whereas, you know the digital,
the digital world can only offerso much.
When you break it apart, you so far, right.
But breaking down analog technologies, there's so many
inflection points. There's so many different ways
to do it. There's so many different

(56:18):
variables that happen. And after kind of 20/13/2014, I
kind of started feeling like, well, I've kind of done this now
it's time to move on. But then I kept getting pulled
back into it and I kept finding more and more and more.
And, and now, you know, 1012 years later, I, I keep finding

(56:38):
even more because now there's a whole scene that's been built
out of it. I've got all these like I've got
these machines here that are like they're custom made by
artists like these are some these ones.
I don't see them back here. This is Tachyon plus analog
glitch machines. So like all this stuff I used to
do just wires and and like, you know, kicking with the VCR back

(57:00):
in the day when before this was like a a real art form.
Now there's a whole world out there, people making things for
it. And so it's, it's lived on, it's
grown, it's continued. And, and now I'm getting things
out of it that I, I just didn't,I didn't think it was possible
to continue to find more in thisweek.
And yet here we are. And it's, it's thanks to like

(57:20):
this whole young scene of, of people, tinkerers, like just
continuing to evolve it. So it's it's really cool to have
been, you know, again, at the atthe forefront of that and then
seeing it take on its own, its own life and now you see it
everywhere. Yeah, yeah.
And it's, it's interesting because when you look at it from

(57:41):
the standpoint of people our age, we're seeing something that
we're familiar with totally donein a different way that we never
thought would be appealing to see.
You know, like you said, you know, hitting the TV or
whatever. And then all of a sudden that
happens. And that's I, I, I mean, I'm
always a little like people say,oh, you're ahead of, you're
ahead of the curve. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm also

(58:02):
kind of like, I like too early sometimes.
Like that it really became clear, like we're back at the
with teeth stuff. It's like, oh, this, this was
weird. It was a weird visual texture
that like 9 inch nails fans and the people who like that kind of
stuff to understand. But people weren't ready to see

(58:23):
the the digital medium being broken down and deconstructed.
Yeah. Because this new thing and you
that I can't say how many times I get calls from printers and
other people have been like, hey, I think your files are
broken. I'm getting all that.
Can you resend this? And I'm like, no, it's, it's
supposed to look like that. It's supposed to be like that.
I re reassuring the the DP on the music video.

(58:47):
No, I actually like actually want to film it that way 'cause
it's supposed to look like, you know, whereas, you know, if you
wait a certain, you know, if youwait a certain amount of time,
then you, then you tie into the kind of nostalgia of things that
people are ready to have postersdeconstructed and broken apart.
The, the VHS wave right now is really hitting that.

(59:09):
And it's, it's really allowing people to like enjoy the
textures of VHS flaws, you know,like it's really hitting.
And, and now we also in that time period passed by the point
where people were ready to see digital glitching as a as an
interesting aesthetic. Finally, because it was it was a

(59:29):
familiar enough and comfortable enough that deconstructing it
was, was something that at some point it started just going into
everything like every movie title of of end of a certain
type of genre would be like. There's some, there's some real,
real bad filters made along the way.
But but it it's, it's wild to watch the, the curvature, the

(59:52):
whole thing and been like, Oh, Iget it.
I was too soon. That's that's why I'm getting
this recognition for it now as opposed to that back then.
It was not the same way. Right, yeah.
And it's interesting, like it kind of goes back to the
conversation started with looking back and not feeling
like back in my day. But we, because all of this

(01:00:14):
stuff happened so rapidly, like you said, we can get a chance to
look back. And now you're when you do that,
it feels a little bit easier. I don't know.
I'm not sure. I mean, yeah, there's
definitely, there's a certain amount of of that.
The the speed, the speed of everything doesn't really allow
for much reflection I think in adangerous way.

(01:00:37):
But sometimes it's, it's really nice to go back and just spend
some time with, with things much, much later and, and
actually get to get to explore them more thoroughly.
But it's what's interesting, which make, what makes me kind
of feel good about especially like the VHS glitching and, and
stuff like that is how much likethere's this whole younger

(01:01:02):
generation of people who really like just kind of inherently
understand the stuff that are into it.
There's something about that analog texture that communicates
something even to people who, who didn't grow up with it.
And, and there's a lot of, there's a whole young art scene,
you know, getting into all this stuff purely for the artistry

(01:01:24):
and the aesthetics of it. And it doesn't, it is reassuring
to me at least, because I know that it's not just a nostalgia
thing. It's not just for people who
remember that the tape cracklingand doing that when they, you
know, when they were a kid. There's something, there's
something more to it. And I think the, the tactile,
the physical, the analog, all that stuff is speaking to
younger people in a sort of likemysterious way of like this, You

(01:01:49):
know, I think there's a pull towards it a little bit, you
know, you know, it's a whole different kind of pull when
you've grown up only with digital stuff, but it's a pull
nonetheless. And I, I hope, I hope there's a,
there's a version of timelines where we course correct to some
degree. You know, I'm not, I'm not an

(01:02:11):
anti technology guy, but I, I, Idon't, I don't think anyone is
really enjoying where we are at right now with technology.
I I don't think anyone is. I think that's been made really
clear in the last couple of years especially, but but I
don't think, I don't think anyone's having fun anymore

(01:02:32):
overall, you know, like, yeah. It's.
Obviously we're doing, we're doing podcasts, we're having,
we're doing a lot of fun stuff, but the feeling of living in it
isn't. The feeling of control that it
has over us is is really the theproblem that's that's.
And I think when you, when you, when you suddenly, when you

(01:02:54):
suddenly like when it feels likethe curtain is pulled off of
like how much it controls us andhow, and how, how it is being
controlled and how everything, you know, when that stuff gets
pulled off and it's just there and then it just, you're
expected to just continue. But now it's all in plain sight
and no one even tries to hide. I don't know.
It's, it's, it's a different feeling now.

(01:03:16):
And I, I, I don't think, I, I think, you know, I can only
continue so much further now that the kind of gloves are off.
So hopefully we hopefully we dial something back and, and
again, look back and learn from not just the, the, the pre
Internet times, but like what we're talking about, like the
golden age of the Internet. Like there was a, there was a
point there, you know, that years ago thing hits it a little

(01:03:38):
bit where it was like the Internet was, was a much more a
place where a lot more people had a lot more control over
things, you know? It was discovery too.
Discovery, you know, like, kind of like the first time you, you,
you're old enough to really givea shit when you go into a
library and realize what you've got at your fingertips that you

(01:04:01):
can do, you know, as a, you know, before you, when you're a
child, you don't care. But like, I feel like 11/12/13
you walk into a library and you're like, wait, I can just
grab this book that has all these dinosaur art, you know,
artists, you know, like dinosaurbooks, shark books, you know,
whatever it is. That's what the early Internet
felt like. And there's still portions of
it. But yeah, it there's, you know,

(01:04:23):
when we think about technology just on a movie, I know you're a
huge movie person just like myself.
You look at the things that likeLucas did or Chris Nolan or
James Cameron, these are pioneers.
And then you look at when the studios took hold of that stuff
and bastardize it and it really just destroys the the medium
that you love. Yeah, yeah.

(01:04:44):
And, and it's it's again, it's, it's, it's control.
It's, it's money. It's, it's, it's all these
things. It's all the things.
So much of the world is run by things that are so antithetical
to art and, and to creation and,and to community.
I think, I think you, you reallysee now how much, how much it

(01:05:05):
requires the kind of pulling apart of community in order to
like keep some of these machinesmoving forward.
And art is so connected to all that.
Maybe a different point, but to just you maybe think of it to
your to your point about movies.Another thing I think about a
lot with the with the digital age turn and our specific age
group is we were also the last generation to grow up in the era

(01:05:28):
of movie magic. Yeah, you'd be like, because in
leading up to again and not I really try to vet myself on
thinking all this stuff about the like, not like the 90s was
that not trying to me that was the best time or anything like
that. But there was something that
specifically was different abouteverything.
And one of the things that we were kind of building up to, you

(01:05:51):
know, really peeking at like theMatrix weirdly right at the end
of the Millennium was every time, you know, every time
there'd be a new type of technology would get used in
some, you know, new way in a movie.
Like you'd go to the movies and you'd see things that you would
never seen before. And like, once it, once CG got

(01:06:13):
to a point where it could do most anything, it turned to a
point where like, it's not like people weren't making amazing
visuals in movies anymore. But you already had the
expectation that you can go to amovie and anything could happen
on that screen and you'll see anything.
And so then it it becomes about how it's done and what the story
is, whatever. But prior to that, it was like
you would go to the movies and there would be things that you

(01:06:35):
just simply did not think they could do, you know?
Jurassic Park T2 and Matrix. Yeah, Oh yeah, all, all that
stuff. And it would like every couple
of years or so, it'd be like there'd be a new special on TV,
the movie magic, look what they're doing.
And it'd be you'd see the the latest Stan Winston robots and
how they were, you'd see them all turn to like polygons

(01:06:55):
because they were adding stuff with computers now.
And like, you know, it was and but it really truly was like
like, oh man, they've just addeda new, it was like game consoles
getting more bits or whatever. You know, it's like you'd go to
the movies the next year and be like, well, they got more stuff
now they can, we can do dinosaurs now.
What the fuck? And and that brings us to the

(01:07:17):
portion of the show where we talk about Jar Jar Binks.
All right, I'm an unabashed Jar Jar fan.
Really. Interesting.
Yeah, because, you know, C3PO isannoying as fuck.
Jar jar is no more annoying thanC3PO.
Wow. You really you really you woke
up to the menu. Chose violence.

(01:07:38):
I go, yeah, I I do most days. I I like to think, I think like
in theory, I'm not as much of A judger here.
But then I like, I remember the last time I tried to watch 10
Minutes, but I did watch it and it was, yeah, yeah, it is kind

(01:07:59):
of. But but I will say I have come
to appreciate that like the prequels are, if nothing else,
George Lucas having a pure vision on, you know.
Just going for it. Just.
Going for it, but also I, I, I will say that they are one thing

(01:08:19):
they do really well is like they're really good at building
out a a history of the world. You know, really like really
laying that out and this is going to be some kind of Star
Wars blasphemy. But I think that's, I think
they're doing that really well with Andor, Andor right now.
So my story was blessed. Me is Andor owes a lot to The

(01:08:40):
Phantom Menace, you know. Well, you know, I'm so the the
the podcast episode that comes out this Monday before this one
comes out the following Monday is me just kind of talking about
Star Wars for half hour, you know, basing it on what I'm
seeing with Andor and the unfortunate fact that what and
or showing us is what's happening in real life, you

(01:09:03):
know, all over the world and youknow, obviously in Palestine and
and all that I I. Mean, I, yeah, I said, I
remember saying when the first season came out, I was like, I
did not expect a Star Wars show to actually be just this like
really meticulous breakdown of how fascism creeps and how

(01:09:23):
rebellion forms. I mean, it is like it is really,
really meticulous and very much like very direct about what it
is laying out. And it, I mean, someone really,
they really saw the opportunity there to say like, we don't even
have to make a comment. I mean, that's the best of what
sci-fi is really. I mean, it's, it's, it's what we

(01:09:44):
all try to do with sci-fi, But they really saw an opportunity
there. Like you don't have to say
anything about anything because you just tell the story of what
happened in this fictional universe because it you know,
and, and, and it's man, it is, it's gripping.
It is. It's rough, too, on the

(01:10:04):
emotional toll that it takes when you really.
I, I confess I'm not, I'm not caught up in Andover because
it's my wife's step. She's like, I can't do it right
now. I just like first the first
season, like we watch together, you know, and this, this one,
things have changed since the first year.
And then like, I just, I don't, I, I need a little more escapism

(01:10:27):
right now. You created this comic right
here on my Over my shoulder in 2019.
High level with the DC. The last gasp.
I guess Vertigo, right? That was the last book.
That was it was the last original title on Vertigo.

(01:10:50):
Yeah, Now as of this year, I think rebooted it again.
But it's like after, you know, the people who were doing
Vertigo at the time, where people believed in Vertigo, they
just rebooted it of the bad stuff that happened because of
AT&T for buyouts. How it's yeah, that's right
here. But yeah, yeah, it was the IT

(01:11:12):
ended up because of all that being the last brutal title.
But but high levels, you know, afuturistic story, you know, I,
I'm, I wanted to ask you, like in writing this story, were you
inspired by a lot of the things that you possibly have written
for the year 0 TV show that never got made?
Or is this like just kind of more ideas from your same brain?

(01:11:38):
Same brain, but it definitely like I would say things that I
learned about in the process of developing the the year 0 story
than ever was building out, you know, the narrative and stuff.
I think all those lessons when in Apple and my interests kind
of remain the same. And the really fun part of

(01:12:01):
Melville was kind of doing againwhat we started to do with year
0, building out the world and the lore and then the journey
through it and all that. And it's a little frustrating
because I had actually find out the entire like, you know, the
entire 18 chapter story like it was going to be it was a

(01:12:23):
complete thing. Yeah, it was.
It was interrupted by by some very obnoxious corporate in our
one on the I I haven't, I don't have access to the story, you
know, I haven't been able to getit back from Warner Brothers
since, so I can't finish it. But it it it was really, really,

(01:12:44):
really fun to to write. And yeah.
It's great story. I I just, yeah, I'm just happy
that it's out there. I got to make a thing on Vertigo
that's really cool. I try not to lament too much
that I didn't get to finish it, but it's really hard when there
was like, there was some stuff that I, there's some stuff in
the rest of the story that's literally about what is exactly

(01:13:06):
happening right now. To the point where if I, if I
released it now, they'd be like,yeah, you're just writing about
right now. Yeah.
It was a God very The whole restof the story was very they did
there. There was a lot of failing AI on
abandoned Mars colonies that never got built because the

(01:13:29):
yeah, it's, yeah, it's yeah. Well, you know, I it, it does
really, it's a testament to yourstorytelling ability.
And, you know, hopefully one dayyou are able to finish it.
But I, I enjoyed reading it. And I know, you know, it's
funny, I had mentioned on the other channel, the comics
channel that, you know, I was interviewing today and
somebody's like, I just wrote all caps in the chat, high

(01:13:51):
level. I was like, yeah.
We didn't, you know, the, the, the whole like the old marketing
side, the label basically like just went away after we started
putting our comic out because the writing was on the wall for
everything. And and so, you know, we didn't

(01:14:12):
really like, we didn't get that much like push, you know,
because it was, it was CNN. But, and especially by the time
the grabbing novel was basicallylike a contractual patient and
put it out, they didn't, they didn't power it or anything.
So, so, you know, it doesn't have this like massive
readership to like, you know, toabuse this currency, but the

(01:14:34):
people who read it are like, so like they're always asking me
like, but what's the deal? What's going on?
More more like, I wish, but it'sit's not, it's very nice.
Like when you like find a dedicated audience, you know, I
got and it's like that's that was like really cool for me
because it was one of the first things I did post sign shale.

(01:14:57):
It was just it was really mine. Yeah, you know, not connected to
music project, although I did make music out of it.
Yep, there's the soundtrack. But it was very, you know, you
realize like how satisfying it is to have to find your
audience. And if they're, they're really
passionate about something you did, like it's very scalable.

(01:15:19):
Like like you can get really excited about 10 people who are
super into something you did. I've been made this like VHS art
project thing. They're they made like 50 of
them. And you know, it's very, very
small. And the first wave of them went
out and there was a guy who, whogot one and he's like, he's like

(01:15:40):
tagging me online and like, I was like playing it, playing it
the like wide screen version on his, all the clinicians, the RT
that's like one of these rare ones.
It's a wide screen CRT and like so stuck on like yes, somehow
this project found its exact person.
That's what it's all about there.
You know, like just when you canconnect with the right audience

(01:16:04):
and and I it makes me really happy at high level did that.
Yeah, I mean, you come from like, you know, this whole Rd.
of talking about fandom and all that, it's like you're you
always just want to find the niche that you fit in as a fan
or as a creator. Yeah, because it's always going
to be stronger when you've got that core like you said.

(01:16:25):
Yeah. And then that's, I mean, I
think, you know, people can feelthe importance of community and
you do now like have to like really search, search and then
try to find your, your like actual organic communities out
there. And so they they mean, they mean

(01:16:46):
a lot to it. And it's, it means a lot to me
that there's people who follow my work and have been following
my work for so long now and people who just discovered me
and whatever. And they and they can you know,
that it feels like this whole community that's very, very
meaningful. It's like what you really, you

(01:17:08):
go, you go on a long road. It was look like a career and
all this stuff. And you see passed by all these
different like metrics of like, what does it mean?
How do you define success? And you watch people, it's all
apart because their version of it is unattainable or they taste
it once and then never again. Yeah.
And you start and you like you realize that like, man, if you

(01:17:33):
can, if you can find, if you canrealize that like your
definition of success is, is really about making some kind of
connection with people with whatyou do.
That's that to me is success. You know, it's like it's, it's.
And when I, when I really like him to understand that it was,
it was very freeing. And that's what that's what kind

(01:17:55):
of like made me still stoked about like doing like Butch kids
and stuff like that too. And there was like, we were just
like doing what we wanted from our house.
Yeah. I mean, you know what we wanted
from our house and, and people were were into it and it was, it
felt kind of small and folksy coming from a coming from a

(01:18:18):
career of like doing giant nose and tours.
But it was like it was all the same thing.
It was the same like connectivity and, and, and just
making stuff that made people happy.
And you see people wearing your,your designs out of the world
makes their day a little better.And it's just like, this is like
shit and this is all I need. Yeah.

(01:18:41):
You know, really comes down to like, what is it you that you
want to get out of being an artist?
I'm not. That's what it is.
It's it's that, it's that you'rea connection.
Yeah, I, you know, Speaking of that, I struggle.
I, I, you know, I deal with it alot.
Imposter syndrome or just tryingto figure out what my level of
success is because I'm trying tocreate a place for people to
just come enjoy, you know, whether it's this podcast, good

(01:19:03):
conversation that introducing somebody to something that they
might not know or, you know, in the comic channel is not just
selling comics, but talking about it with creators.
And I had I had Tom McFarlane onlike a year and a half after I
started my channel. And it was like this moment
where I'm just like, Dave, you, you, you can't, you can't get
higher than this when it comes to comics like Kirby's not alive

(01:19:27):
anymore. So you know, you're, you're
talking to the Todd father. And it was like so many people
would send me messages like sucha great conversation.
Thanks for putting that out there.
And I'm like, but I'm still trying to figure out how I
pulled that one off, you know, And it is, it's tough when you
try to step back and be like, what?

(01:19:48):
What is success to you as the creator, whether whatever it is
you're doing? And I love hearing people talk
about like what you just said. It's just, you know, even if
it's two people that you affected like and brought that
thing into their lives and it's joy, you know?
Yeah, it's it's really, I mean, don't all right, imposters under

(01:20:09):
this, It's something I try to talk about a lot because people
acts like they're like surprisedyou would repost something.
Yes. Like I don't think, I don't
think anyone's a real. I think you're a real artist.
If you don't have in some way, you know, there's probably some
like there's probably some performers out there who, you
know, don't have it. Maybe it's just, but I don't

(01:20:34):
know, I think the people who don't are just lying to you
because it's just it's the nature of creativity and it's
just, it's part of your just going to be a passenger in your
brain to your group no matter what.
And, you know, I think it reallyhelps to like really look at
like what you get out of something and try and like deal

(01:20:54):
with that, like that demon of what what success is and
whatever, you know, because I have friends who friends who are
amazing musicians and they're, they're my age now.
And I've seen, you know, the full spectrum of where that ends
up. Will I, I know some, some of
them who have made amazing musicand, and done a lot of stuff,

(01:21:20):
but seem immensely unhappy because they've never hit it,
never broke out in the way that they wanted it to.
And yet, so they're not appreciating all the like cool
stuff that they have done. Some friends who are having a
blast being musicians because they just said at some point
they said, you know what, this is a hobby for me.

(01:21:40):
I'm not trying to make it in anyreal way.
And they plan and having fun andthey're enjoying the art doing
doing it. And like, it's really hard to
it's really hard to figure out where where you are happy
landing all that. The key is really looking at
what you impact and what you andwhat you get to do.

(01:22:02):
You know, Sid, it was weird. We died going back into that
world with with Pearl Jam. Like after a few years of like
really down doing small personalprojects and also being back
from the tourist circuit and like, you know, this real just

(01:22:24):
really, you just got to like really enjoy how how much you
get to like how much you get to do in, in, in life, whatever the
scale is, you know. Yeah, Speaking of, you know, you
have now you know it with this announcement that came last
year, almost a year ago, right? It was your first show with with
Pearl Jam in Vancouver. Yeah.

(01:22:46):
I find that Rob Sheridan is now worked with my two all time
favorite bands. You know, I, I'm, I'm not
ashamed to say I've seen Pearl Jam over 40 times.
I've been seeing them since 94. And you know, I got to see her
work on both Seattle shows at, at the Amazon endorsed Climate
Pledge Arena. So.

(01:23:08):
They look cheering, you know what I mean?
Do you want to go back and? What did you say?
The Colosseum? That's right, that's right.
Speaking of the Colosseum, Nassau Colosseum was my first 9
inch nail show back in 1995. But how does how does this come
about? Like how do you get on the radar

(01:23:29):
for Pearl Jam? And can I just say like another
amazing thing to see that you took what you do and added it to
a band that never did anything like that and just breathed an
entire new life into the visual standpoint of their shows.
Well, well, thank you. I mean, it's a relief to talk

(01:23:51):
to, especially fans of the band because you know, Progenm fans
are, they're like Nails fans, you know, they're, they're very
hardcore. They're.
Dedicated. Opinions you know and to to
pretty much universally hear from fans that they really
enjoyed this dimension that we brought to the show.

(01:24:13):
Like huge relief for me because you know I'm I that was my major
concern there was not concern. But the thing that was on my
mind through the process is likereally being out of the balance
here and making sure that this is about making best pro jam
show. Yeah, what we can make and not.
But changing the changing out feels there change like, you

(01:24:37):
know, any of the what's important about it or anything,
but just adding something new that that can kind of we part of
the fabrics of it. And I, you know, I like to think
that I I'm very proud of what I did.
I like somebody did a good job with it.
A lot of the credit goes to the band.

(01:24:59):
You know, you you you might you might have trouble integrating
new elements into into some bands, but when you're dealing
with one of the best live bands of all time, it's they do make
it a little bit easier because which it's the we would just we
were joking like first show in Vancouver because yeah, new
first show tour. You're always no one slept.

(01:25:23):
You're right. You try to finish things is
anything that happened everything from like is someone
that forget to push the button that turns on the thing will
will this feel right We've only done Internet could feel right
people here did we are we doing all right You know it's it it
wasn't like the nails to us where each one was kind of like

(01:25:44):
for mental grades from the previous this brand new.
It was like it was right and so the first shows happening in
them. You know, I was just joking like
this doesn't feel as tense as like as a nails tour or
something. Because it, the way we
structured the nails tours were very like, you know, everything

(01:26:07):
was very kind of planned out. It was, it was dialed in.
Yeah, everywhere. And this, this problem showed a
loose structure to it. It was kept loose in places on
purpose because of the band and just joking like, well, if the
all the fucking video and lightsand everything go out or just
fail in some way. The national show and it's

(01:26:30):
happening. The worst career in the dark
when it's enough things and we get it back because there isn't
Joel would that. But anyway, you're sitting there
watching Pearl Jam. It's like if everything's all
the lights are out right now, someone would light up, light a
match and they play probably thebest show and probably have
mystery. And, you know, yeah, it would be

(01:26:51):
acoustic and it would just be like, whatever.
And not not that's any reason tofeel, you know, less nervous or
want to want to make sure it goes right.
But it it really was is that took band where it's like, I'm
glad to give this this new worldto play in, but they could
actually call it off anywhere with any.
Yeah, yeah. And with their you know, the

(01:27:12):
ever changing set list, you knowyou can you can build visuals
for songs that they may not playor they may play and like it
gives you. Some out there that I'm not sure
if there's like a couple of visuals that I was hoping to see
and I never saw while I was out with them.
I'm not sure if they even poppedup yet.
Yeah, yeah. Who knows?
I mean, yeah, I, I wish I could do what I used to do and go to,

(01:27:34):
you know, 10 shows or five showson the tour, but it ain't like
that anymore with traveling and and all that.
I know, I know I was I was very,very fortunate to be able to
stay out and work on the on the tour for the last the most of
the runs last year, as we actually we had to adapt the

(01:27:56):
whole thing to the outdoor version, trying to just add as
many additional songs as possible.
And so I'm going to go out to the to the Pittsburgh shows that
are going to close out this runt.
Excited to see everybody check it out again.
That'll be fun. Yeah, I kind of jealous, you
know, When, When Steph? By the way, big shout out to

(01:28:17):
Steph for making all this happen.
But said said that your travel schedule shifted.
I'm like, oh, he's, I guess he'sgoing to the end of the tour.
Yeah, it's because who, who knows?
I don't, They don't, they don't have any more shows booked so
far this year. So no, I I'm just like, well,
you know what, if they don't do anyone this year, they might not

(01:28:39):
do this show again. So I I have no idea, but maybe
it's the last time that I get tosee the show that I built.
So yeah, I want to see that. Yeah, yeah.
They'll they'll do more. I have no idea so I just want to
make sure. Yeah, yeah.
And I hope, I'm always hoping they're going to do more.
But you know, it's funny becauselike the visuals have been great
and you know, you can see Rob's behind the scenes process on

(01:29:04):
Patreon or on on Instagram. And I'm going to have all your
links down below. But there's one that I think was
night 2 in Seattle that really popped out at me.
And at first I'm like, oh, they're playing evolution.
It's the video. And then I noticed I'm like, no,
that's, that's not the music video.
And then I heard you on the State of Love and Trust podcast

(01:29:26):
say that's any story to tell. And I was like, oh shit, that
was the spawn sizzle reel he made to pitch the evolution
video to Todd, wasn't it? Something was known.
Yeah, yeah, there's a, there is AI mean, it's the thing of

(01:29:46):
legend. But they released a book, a
hardcover book a couple years ago called The Art of Evolution,
and it's all about the music video being made.
And Todd tells the story that Eddie used to have like a hobby
editing, which is nuts. You don't think about that
something he's going to have. And he made that to pitch to
McFarland. Wow.
Well, I'm yeah, I was, I was trying not to tell the strikes.

(01:30:07):
It's there. I didn't know it wanted to tell
it or something. But now that you know you've
like you've done all your slickering, I guess I have to
tell it to some degree. The evolution being a show is
like something that I that I'm brought up like and you felt

(01:30:28):
excited about because it's, it'skind of breaks my rule of like,
I never want to just put the music video on the screen.
It's lazy, right? But I had, you know, in, in
prepping for, in prepping for the, the pro gem concept and all
that, you know, I was, I was revisiting our, you know, all

(01:30:48):
pro gems videos and stuffs. And, you know, it should be said
because you mentioned it. I, you know, I grew up in
Seattle and I was huge, a huge fan of program because it was
like part of my DNA. Yeah, growing up here, you know,
and it was, it was, it was like it was a big deal to, you know,
to of all the like, of all the acts that could come out, come

(01:31:12):
around to, for me to get back into this stuff.
It was like, wow, I mean, that's, that's this bucket list,
right? So, you know, I, I wanted to
really look through everything and really think about how
they've been represented visually in the past.
And I pulled up Evolution to Stephen, stepped in to remember
if she'd seen it since like backin the day or whatever.
And it's like, even this thing still so good, so good.

(01:31:37):
And it's more, it's only gotten more relevant.
I know. And it overlapped with the fact
that I was I came up learning todraw as a teenager.
I mentioned Bill Larson, but after that, as I got a little
older, it was Tom McFarland. Sure.
Like you said, we're the same age.
That's all the same influence. I had all the respond toy, you

(01:31:57):
know, I was like from McFarland found in in the 90s.
And though like that was the school intersection where I was
like, you know what? And amidst all these like high
concept things we were doing, I was like, I was trying to add
like, I think I don't know if you watched a really, but I
think it's the time to just put the evolution video on during

(01:32:20):
that song. It would look cool.
Everyone would be stoked to see it up there.
You know, I love it. I just let's and he's like,
let's try it. Let's, you know, let's try it.
And he's like, you know, actually there's this there's
this old kind of it that I have.Well, I don't think I have any
large suit. He tells me about the sizzle RIP
thing. So he cut together clips of

(01:32:42):
spawn and he fills this room. Yeah, we're we're as home
student shows in his room is like, I used to have this this
whole like avid editing suite together.
I just that I got this room video and he's like, of course,
right after that they, you know,the final cut came out.
You could do it. I heard computer so but he was

(01:33:02):
doing it within a real editing, you know, real editing equipment
and it would just do it for fun and he you know, you got
together fun like thing to show the crowd like the thing that
you're talking about, and I was like, well, that would be cool.
He said I don't think I have anywoman and then and then one day
he all of it as we're working ona show we've gotten we've gotten

(01:33:26):
been you're the best quality we could of the official one and
then cleaned it up a bit and it was looking awesome on stage.
And then it's also like she justhe sends me a picture of VHS
tapes and he's like, I found it.So we put we slid that into the
show and you know, if everyone'sbeen asking me.

(01:33:49):
So what's the deal with that thing was like flips from that's
from that in there when I was I don't know, but it's more
important in terms of legacy than you might think.
It's not just you know so because it because it never
been, you know, seen. So, you know, it's so
validating. I did, you know the Leonardo

(01:34:10):
DiCaprio mean where he's pointing at the TV.
When I heard you say that in theinterview and saying that's Ed's
story, that was me. I was like, I know what that.
Is wow, that's something there. We'll, we'll wrap it up soon,
but I want to kind of bring it. You know, tell us you know love
and trust that you scooped them.Yeah, I know, I know.

(01:34:30):
I'm going to. I'm going to have to send a
message and just be like here's the clip.
Yeah. But bringing it in full circle,
you know, it was whatever, two or three months ago, the new
trailer for the Naughty Dog gameIntergalactic Drops, which you
put together, bringing together Trenton, Atticus are doing the
score. The Last of Us, too, is

(01:34:52):
extremely built upon Eddie's thePearl Jam song.
What is. Oh, God, it just escaped me.
Days. Yes.
Future days, Future days. Yeah.
So. And then you're in the middle
with this trailer. I know you probably can't talk
about it, but is there more of you working with Naughty Dog to

(01:35:15):
come or anything? I am the I'm very afraid of
Sony's NDA's. Fair enough, fair enough.
Maybe anything about that, but Iwould say that I very much,
very, very, very much enjoy working with them and on that
and definitely would like to work on them, the teachers.

(01:35:40):
Sure, sure. I mean, I'm I'm.
Falling off because I don't knowwhat I can say.
But no, that's fine. I don't want anybody.
I don't want anybody showing up at your door with a silence.
I'm it, it was another, it was another crazy thing for me too,
because I'm like, you know, I'm huge Nationals fan, obviously

(01:36:02):
huge girl Down fan. And then, you know, I hadn't
really worked even the video games, not a lot of video games,
you know, to be like, oh, if youwant to work with somebody
making video games today, it would be like, oh, obviously not
enough. And then I still like it was
nuts. So, yeah, I mean, that were and

(01:36:25):
and it was it was because he sawthe pro damn show in Vancouver.
They were filming and he loved visuals.
And so this is the thing we are thinking about for this game
we're making. And then it all times it worked
out. And then he's and then when you
know, when I met with with theirteam and and had Sunning signed

(01:36:50):
all the all the up, then he was like, so I think you might know
the guys who were doing the soundtrack.
You know, all all. No, it's all if someone tells me
that that they're doing a dancing bait.
Yeah, that's it. It's going to be in the game.
It's going to be hidden in intercollect.

(01:37:12):
I mean, it's, I, I assume that Druckman's probably around our
age. And it just it, it makes sense
that all of these things kind ofcome together because, you know,
when you're growing up, at the time we grew up, it's like
you're a fan of this, you're a fan of this.
Like you might like this. And you know what he did with
video games? I mean, with Last of Us and Last
of Us too, I don't think I've ever played anything or

(01:37:34):
experienced this story that I'vebeen horrified and enjoyed as
much as as I have with those twogames.
Yeah, I mean, I I remember saying at the time last those 2
was the best movie that I playedthat, you know, that year and
and I was I was genuinely a little bit nervous about about

(01:37:55):
them doing show only because I'mlike, well, how do you I deal
with that? Just yeah, how do you do it in a
way that feels complimentary with that because you've already
done it in a lot of ways and hearing that he was going to be
directly involved in the show was I was OK, they'll figure it
and they did. So.
I mean it's amazing. And then there's but it's just

(01:38:17):
wild, you know, because there's,you know, Pearl Dam references
mission in the. Game the show.
So yeah, it's very much it's very much at the center of and
then of course the, you know, the new game intergalactic.
It's like when you know, when they told her about the
aesthetic, the richer future, because stuff just like hello.

(01:38:41):
You're living in it. There's a whole other aspect of
my my, the texture of my being. So it's, it's really, it's
really cool to be able to play in all these playgrounds that
sort of like feel like they're coming full circle.
You know, it's I mean, to your point of like being the same
age, the same same background tosome extent, it's like there

(01:39:05):
there was a monoculture of sortsback, you know, where there's
only so many pipelines, right? And, and if you were tuned into
a certain, you know, angle of the pipelines, you would
inevitably get similar types of things coming, you know, not,
not the world, just not the world that programmable.

(01:39:27):
But but it was just a matter of like, there's, there are only so
many ways you can get the media.You didn't have this infinite
thing. And, and you tended to be like,
if you were a certain type of person, like we were you, part
of your part of the reason you're so attached to media is
because you had to really work, find more of it outside of the

(01:39:51):
mainstream, outside of what was being said.
And so you kind of like kind of add us a sort of identity around
breaking out of the mainstream because it was the only way to
to tangibly find more of the type of stuff you liked.
It wasn't going to come to you, you know, so that, so there's,

(01:40:12):
there's definitely like, it's really interesting to see all
the, all the threads overlap. And, and I also say as a
especially because I think, you know, at some point I want to do
something. For for kids media or whatever,
but to having a kid right now, it's really a golden age to have
waited to be a parent because all of the stuff that's out

(01:40:33):
there for little kids is being made by people our age.
So they're bringing back all theliterally, I swear, no, after a
while, my kids favorite stuff islike these gloves and Ninja
Turtles. You're when you're happy loves
Nightmare before Christmas, Mario, you know all the stuff
that was like literally be happystuff and Ghostbusters you

(01:40:57):
really into like all the stuff is like 80s kid things because
it's friends next door and do itand it's what's popular.
It's Star Wars, all that stuff. It's not even like it's not even
like their parents are like force going to play with old
toys. It's like literally just what is
organically popular amongst kidsnow because the old, the older
people making the stuff want to go back to their.
Yeah, we want to enjoy it. It's a great, you know, 20 and

(01:41:20):
30 year rotation of, of culture.Scott Cole, Oh.
And it just blew my mind that you said Turtles.
I'm like, well, who did the music for the last Turtles
movie? Shit's insane.
You know, think, I think about things like that, Rob, If you
would have told 12 year old Davethat Trent Rest was going to be

(01:41:41):
making music for a Turtles movieand it would kick ass, I'd be
like Nah. You're on crack.
I know, right? I know.
Well, there's a lot of there's alot of stuff like that that's
just funny that to look at and be like that would have made no
sense to say about this. But it and what's also
interesting is to see how many, how many musicians and bands,

(01:42:05):
you know, who came came up for those rock music and and other
kinds of music are now doing stuff for kids media because
inevitably they have kids and then they're like, OK, well,
yeah, do that. So like, yeah, you just, you
start to realize like, oh, like so many of the themes and things
are done by like musicians that I know.

(01:42:27):
And yeah, mostly because mostly because they're just at the H
hour they did that. So it's fun for them to make
music for the things that you know that are going on to
another generation. And they have either vocally or
just musically, they have a recognizable voice in that.
And that helps other parents that are that age identify with
that and then show it to their kids for sure.

(01:42:50):
So that that definitely helps. OK, Last thing I'm going to talk
about, I'm going to mention because we started with the
Internet memes and stuff. It is the five year anniversary
of a thing that you did that sent shockwaves through Reddit
and a lot of movie sites when you took mushrooms and went to
go see cats. Oh.
It's the five year wow. Yeah, yeah, I I remember that

(01:43:13):
because I follow you on social media, but I remember seeing
that catch wildfire on Reddit and then kind of go through the
media. This guy live tweets his
experience seeing this movie on mushrooms.
Right. And it was it was my friend

(01:43:33):
Scott Wampler who rested peace and ran the first movie's death.
And, you know, would always likeupdate me like this, small as it
was. That was where I originally did
the the interview about it afterthe fact that it was like this
was like our most popular post until the site I finally went

(01:43:55):
out. I was like the number one most.
I couldn't believe it. It was that's just how it spread
all over the Internet. I think it was just the perfect,
the perfect way to for people toconnect with the strange way
that that movie made the deal. Yeah.
So the person quite to experience it through someone

(01:44:15):
else. Exactly, and an experience that
just gets like it just escalatestill it, you know, it just gets
worse and worse, but it it just just goes to show that, you
know, you're able to make a pioneering Internet thing every
generation. I guess, I guess somehow it just
keeps happening and cut herself.I'm not even very like not even

(01:44:38):
like an influence or anything. It just every now and just
happened to intersect with the zeitgeist in weird ways.
But yeah, that was that was really as we were fighting.
Also the also the last time I did mushrooms.
Last time I saw hats. Well, I mean it in in a real

(01:45:01):
honest way, you know, overall all of this that we've talked
about, it kind of just speaks tothe fact that your unique
perspective as an artist or as amushroom taker or a dancing baby
fan, like or a Nine Inch Nails, you know, fan, whatever it is,
like your perspective makes people pay attention.
And I just really appreciated I,I can speak for friends that I

(01:45:25):
have that also follow your work.It's very much appreciated of
being just somebody that who hasa unique perspective that shares
it with us. Well, thank you.
I appreciate that. And like I said, that's that's
what means the most to me. I connect with with people in in
in some way. And I think I think a lot of
what especially, you know, the nice nails fan that people have

(01:45:47):
called me for a long time. I think the fact that I, you
know, started as a fan and just continue to, yeah, to be
grounded in that and have that as part of me, it's it's kind of
part of how I look through everything, how I react with
people and see everything. And I, I try to carry the and

(01:46:09):
try to get that perspective withme openly, I guess, you know,
because I think you, you never lose it.
But I think some, I think some artists press try too hard to
hide it perhaps, or you know that they're as, as you know,
all of this or as hoster syndromers was struck by it or

(01:46:33):
you know that I don't know if I don't know how to explain what
I'm saying. But there's a there's a
groundedness that I think on plays better in in today's world
than than maybe, you know, So I think some people weren't able
to really get past this like idea that you had like the above
at all. You had to like maintain some
like with your you're disconnected from the human

(01:46:55):
experience in order to be an artist or whatever.
And it might work for some people, but I just, I don't know
how to do it. You know, I came from much more
connected to the audience. We're, you know, and that's
important to me. Yeah, yeah, I think it speaks to
fandom and community and just wanting to be around like minded
people that are into that thing.And you've you've helped create

(01:47:18):
that. And I want to give a plug to the
Patreon, the Discord and Instagram, like 3 places that
you can find more of Rob and hisart.
Get free stuff like Wallpapers as you see on the screen here
and you know it. You do a lot of behind the
scenes stuff you like. You said you broke down a lot of
the Pearl Jam tour as well as the With Teeth anniversary

(01:47:40):
stuff, so all those links will be available in the description
for this. Yeah, when you let's see if I
can do this. When you first turned on this,
this chatter, the wallpaper cameup.
I thought did our screen sharingon or something was like you can
save it right behind me, exact same wallpaper.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I, I thought it was a nice

(01:48:06):
little added. I like to, you know, because I,
I invite people on this podcast that I'm a fan of.
So I want to show everybody the things that comes from your body
of work, or if it's a comic artist.
That's cool, that freaks me out at first.
Green on his I remember. But do you people are like,

(01:48:26):
like, it's cool that you like you actually use your own
Wallpapers? I'm like, I make them for me.
I make them, of course, what's Iwant to wear and make
Wallpapers. I want to put them to say, I'm
just glad other people also like, like, I don't know, like
making it for other people And then like, you know, go wear my
own stuff. Like, no, I made this because I
want to wear rad. If you want to though.

(01:48:48):
Anything else to promote or anything else coming out or
people should look for besides the Patreon, discord, Instagram?
I am I'm not at a another project, sure, now that things
cooking, but I I do in at least times in between big things or

(01:49:13):
while I'm preparing for big things or whatever I make, I
make friends so regularly reallyrelease the print wallpaper
packs, all this stuff you mentioned.
I have this VHS that I made. It's cool for people like that
stuff and you know, just check out the little things I make.

(01:49:33):
That's what that's what keeps mybrain going all the time.
Yeah, Glitch Goods and the prints and all that stuff.
And, you know, just also want tosay thanks for all the money
that you've helped raise, for all the different causes that
you're backing over the last, I mean, you know, career.
You know. You know, it's always nice to
see people doing good things. I try, you know, it's, it's

(01:49:59):
yeah, it makes it, it makes it feel.
It's just that the if you're lucky, you're lucky if you can
ever do something you love for, for money, you know, or like to
live on. I mean, but it really feels
lucky to then also be able to doit in a way that impacts or

(01:50:19):
makes things better for people. And that's, that's kind of just
all you can do sometimes get by just like finding your
community. It's like finding your own way
of making things look better. Thanks for listening to that
interview with Rob Sheridan. You can find all of his links in
the description, whether you're listening to this on Spotify or

(01:50:42):
Apple or watching it on YouTube.He's got a Patreon, a Discord,
Instagram, a threadless shop, all the all the places you can
get neat stuff like this. And I've just really super
appreciate his point of view on things and just hearing his
stories and the parallels that we have because we are the same
age and the things that we grew up loving and the ways that we

(01:51:05):
viewed the Internet and grew into it and all that.
It's such a fun conversation andsuch a a delightful person to
talk to. If you really enjoyed this
podcast and you're not subscribed, I am asking you
please do because this path thatI am on is interviewing all of
the people that I would call inspirations or heroes or

(01:51:25):
whatever the adjective you want to use is.
I want to bring these people on my podcast and have
conversations with them. If you're listening on Spotify
and Apple, you can like and you can also rate the podcast.
You can leave a comment on Spotify, You can leave an A word
review on Apple and on YouTube, you can hit the like button.
You can comment and you can alsosubscribe.

(01:51:46):
So we are nearing the end of theseason, but there's still more
to come. So please join me next week on
Direct Edition. Listen to the episodes you might
have missed. I super appreciate it.
Anything you can do to help me get this podcast out to more
people is super important to me.This has been another episode of
Direct Edition, a podcast about nothing and everything.

(01:52:09):
And I'll see you next week. No, that sounded terrible.
And I'll see you next week, please.
That also sounds terrible. Whatever, just end the podcast.

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