December 10, 2021 • 23 mins
Doug Goist wasn't born blind, however during his high school days, while playing sports he started to see it fading away. Listen in as I sit down with Doug and talk about his journey through O& M training and how he uses his disability to create employment ability for thousands every year. With his years of experience and work with the National Industries for the Blind and NSITE, Doug and his team are changing the views for candidates with blindness and educating employers to become more inclusive.
Website: https://nsite.org/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-goist-656b3228/?miniProfileUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afs_miniProfile%3AACoAAAXcyCIBsWHvUSlFnji6HkCmKGFgGH8__rw
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:03):
Welcome to DisAbility Talks, a podcast produced by
Abilities in Motion.
I'm your host, Shelly Houser.
Join us for real conversationsand no nonsense talk from
everyday people withdisabilities, living their most
independent everyday lives.
Tune in for the latest newssurrounding disability,
accessibility and independence.
(00:23):
Where conversations aren'tdissed and stories that need to
be told aren't missed.
So let's talk.
Shelly (00:30):
Thanks for joining DisAbility Talks.
I am your host Shelly Houser.
And today my guest is DougGoist.
He is the Program Manager forworkforce development at NSITE
in Virginia.
He has worked with theDepartment of Defense and other
military and federal agenciesfor the last 10 years.
He has led a panel discussionwith MIT and has spoken with
fortune about how COVID-19 ischanging the workplace for
(00:53):
persons with blindnessrethinking employment options
for us will affect 49 millionAmericans with disabilities.
And Doug is here to discuss thattoday.
Welcome Doug.
Thanks for being on the show,
Doug (01:04):
Shelly I really appreciate your invitation.
Um, it's always great to be ableto spread the word on the
importance of addressingdisabilities in this case
blindness.
So, um, thank you for having me.
Shelly (01:16):
Absolutely.
It's my pleasure.
So we had connected maybe abouta year ago and have stayed in
touch and the more I've dug intoyour history and your
background, you've had anenormous background, quite
extensive of all the work thatyou've done with military and
federal agents and MIT and somany more, which we'll get into
soon.
(01:37):
But I wanted to start basicallyfrom the very, very beginning
when you were still a senior inhigh school and you had your
site, correct?
Doug (01:45):
That is correct.
I did have my s ight.
And, u m,
Shelly (01:51):
And what happened then?
Doug (01:52):
Well, it's kind of like the cliched American normal
so-called normal upbringing.
You know, I have a brother,sister, uh, parents, and we had
two dogs and, um, we're all veryactive.
We're all career oriented as faras, as just, you know, doing the
right things and progressing upin being a productive member of
society and, uh, tied to thatwas our passion in sports.
(02:17):
So frankly, my, my father is ourhero really he's he, he was an
incredible athlete.
He was an all American footballplayer drafted by the Detroit
lions.
He, he never went in fact, he's,he still owns his high school
track record that has stood for70 years and his hurdles record
stood for 50 years.
(02:37):
But anyway, so he's our heroes.
So my brother and I and sisterwere all very active in sports.
My brother and I were basketballplayers.
His team was ranked first in thestate.
My team was ranked fifth andwe're four years apart.
But anyway, my senior year I wasplaying four or five sports and
I noticed I seem to be gettingworse from my junior year.
(02:59):
So in baseball, that was, uh, Iwould, I couldn't see, I lose
track of where the ball was inthe air.
It was under my feet.
I didn't see it during a gamerunners around running around
the bases, but I most noticed itin basketball.
I, um, was colliding with myteammates.
(03:21):
I was called out of bounds once,and I was looking at the ref,
like, what are you talkingabout?
And I looked down at my foot andit was definitely out of bounds.
So things like that werehappening.
And I, I thought I need toeither see a brain specialist or
something.
Shelly (03:38):
What exactly is your diagnosis with your loss of
sight?
Doug (03:44):
It's um, it's, uh, inherited retinal degeneration
called retinitis pigmentosa.
Um, I wouldn't say all of a lotof the times, but it's
primarily, there's a familymember with it.
My parents both happen to becarriers, which is one in
apparently one in 88, 0 peoplecarry this recessive gene and
(04:06):
they were both one in 80 and thechances of their child having
it, it was one in four and I'mthe third of three.
So there's no, there's notreatment or cure.
Shelly (04:18):
So we all struggle as persons with disabilities,
millions of us with employment.
And even though the ADA has beenaround for what, 31 years this
year?
I think title one of the ADA,which covers employment really
was the biggest part of the ADAthat didn't stick.
Would you agree with that?
Doug (04:38):
Yeah, it's I would.
And I guess the good news is,um, the fact that there's an,
even an ADA at all.
Um, it's been 31 years now.
Um, and frankly, um, as I waslosing vision, you know, it
wasn't, it wasn't a, uh, wasn'teven really on the radar.
(05:02):
So, you know, it's, it's, it'sdefinitely getting better, but
obviously in the employment, um,area, uh, there's a lot of talks
obviously rightfully aboutdiversity and equity and
inclusion, but it, I hear itover and over and over again.
When I, when I hear people usingthe, the, the list of kind of
(05:25):
diversity measures, they kind oftrail off when they get to
disability and sometimes it'snot even addressed.
It's, it's all of the otherareas are addressed, but
disability often gets left offin the kind of, we feel left out
a little bit.
Shelly (05:39):
I, and I agree with that because I recently talked to an
agency that was looking fordisability and inclusion
consultant.
And when I brought upaccessibility and disability,
they were like, well, that's notwhat we meant.
I'm like, well, that's a hugepart of, it's not just, you
know, this community, thecolored community or LGBT
(06:00):
community or eight elderly, youknow, older community of
workers, but it absolutely is.
So what's the statistic ofpersons with disabilities that
are employed versus unemployedin the United States.
Do you have that statistic?
Doug (06:16):
I think it's a, it's a good question.
And I think that's a combinationof all, all of what you
mentioned.
So I think it's, um, mostly alack of awareness because, um,
honestly when, uh, when I wasfully sighted prior to my
diagnosis, I, I, I had no,absolutely no concept of what it
(06:40):
was like to be blind or what iteven meant or what people could
do.
So, um, because I, I never cameacross anyone or maybe if I did,
I, I just never had theopportunity to interact with
somebody and then, and that goeswith other disabilities as well.
So I think it's, I think it's acomfort level that may be some
(07:01):
that a hiring manager, you know,they're, they're just trying to
find the right person.
And so nobody wants to feeluncomfortable.
So if somebody comes in with awheelchair or white cane, or
what have you, and they're notprepared to ask the questions
that they asked everyone else,and they're afraid to say the
(07:21):
wrong thing, um, for fear ofreprisal, potentially, I think
that's there, that's where someof the hesitation is.
And then the biggest hesitation,at least for blindness is, um,
uh, real perceived, lack of, uh,lack of, um, uh, lowered,
basically lowered expectation ofsomebody because preconceived in
(07:43):
your mind, you're like, well,you're blind.
I mean, how are you going to dothis job without ever asking the
person how they'll be able to dothe job it's written off?
Shelly (07:56):
So where's that disconnect with employers versus
persons with any kind ofdisability that can work?
You know, some of us havemaster's degree, doctorate
degrees, we worked for 10, 15,20 years.
Doug (08:12):
Yeah.
And it's obviously a case bycase basis because I always make
the point that I, every,everyone wants everyone I think
is good and, and at heart innature, and they want to give
people chances.
Um, there may be cases where,um, frankly, they, in the past,
they gave somebody anopportunity who didn't work out
(08:32):
or that person threatened maybelegal litigation, um, maybe
deservingly, maybe undeservinglyand they just don't, you know,
they had, let's just say theyhad a bad experience with
somebody.
So that's why I know at insight,when we talk with job
candidates, it's like, um, youhave to have this awareness
(08:54):
going in that, um, you know, youare your, you are the pioneer
here and potentially, so if theyhave a good experience with you,
they're going to be way moreopen to hiring more people
behind you.
So, so it's both sides, youknow?
Shelly (09:15):
Right.
Absolutely.
So does your company insight,help employers work through this
challenge?
Doug (09:25):
We do.
So, you know, our primarymission is we, we call it talent
management, connecting andcorporate employers in the, you
know, in the private sector withtalented people who are visually
impaired and blind.
So on the corporate side, ourcorporate partners.
So what we offer is we have ajob board called, Insight
(09:45):
Connect that we have candidatesin the resumes and profiles that
we have there.
And then we also offer them thatconversation in that analysis of
coming into their, theircompanies and looking at their
job positions, they may haveemployees with disabilities,
blindness, or low vision.
(10:05):
And we tell them, we show themthe little things, not the major
things in most cases that theycan do to help, help that
employee succeed.
And then for our job candidatesthat they want to hire, we
assist the company andonboarding that person, showing
them exactly what they need,looking at their platforms and
(10:26):
systems and saying, Hey, thissystem could be adjusted a
little bit.
It's not very accessible the wayit is, or if it's totally
accessible, we have thatconsulting piece of it as well.
We, we actually are working withcompanies actively right now
doing assessments and feedbackon their own technologies,
(10:47):
especially
Shelly (10:50):
From a candidate's perspective, how do you help
them identify their disabilityon the resume and help them go
through the interview, provingtheir, their quality of work
without mentioning theirdisability since it's an off the
table discussion at that point?
Doug (11:13):
Yeah.
You know, that is probably thebiggest question mark that, uh,
I know I experienced it aftervision loss because I point and
click with a mouse my waythrough my resume and made it
look pretty, you know, and didall of the neat little, little
things on it.
And, and then when I lostvision, I'm like, I can do all
(11:38):
of these, this video productionwork and all of these other
things, but I can't really dothat now.
So, um, what do I put on there?
So my recommendation, at leastpersonally, and I think it just
in general insights, attitudethat focus on the job position,
making sure that you are skilledwith, with each of the duties,
(12:03):
whatever requirements those are,if it's Microsoft office and you
need your, you want anaccounting job, you'd better
know county, you better knowExcel and formulas, but as far
as do I have a guide dog or Iuse a white cane, or I use a
screen reading technology, Idon't think that's necessary for
(12:26):
that resume because it, youdon't want to give the potential
employer when you're competingagainst a hundred other people,
50 or 30.
You don't want to give thatpotential.
It's not a negative, but it'sjust kind of a question mark in
that, in that hiring manager'smind.
So at that point, it's, itshouldn't be front and center
(12:48):
your disability.
So when you get to the jobinterview, you know, we
recommend that you put it outupfront to the person
interviewing you.
You sit there for instance,you're walking with a white cane
and you sit down, I would say,look, I am visually impaired,
obviously I'm blind.
And I just wanted to allay anyconcerns you may have about how
(13:10):
I'm able to do this position.
Here's how I do work and thenkind of rattle off what you're
able to do.
And, and as long as you do thatwith confidence and positivity,
I think that goes a long way.
Shelly (13:23):
It sounds like what you're saying is maybe leading
that conversation, even thoughtechnically it's off the table
for the employer interviewing,but just let them know that
you're confident and capablecandidate and then move on and
lead by example.
Doug (13:38):
Absolutely.
Because if neither partyaddresses there, there's going
to be that question of, well,I'm really not sure how that
person can do it budget, but ifyou come in there and you say
that I've been doing budgetingfor family's business for two
years, you know, and this iswhat I do with Excel and so
(13:58):
forth.
And you don't have to get intothe details of exactly how your
technology works, but it's thatmessage of commanding respect
and not kind of demandingrespect.
It's that there's a definitedifference between that.
And coming out empowered andpositive is it really goes along
.
Shelly (14:16):
What I've seen with on various social media platforms
that the younger generations, 20early 30 generations, they're
taking a lot of pride in theirdisability and with employment.
And they're really just puttingit out there, flat on the table,
dragging that elephant andshoving it out of the room.
(14:37):
And it's quite impressivebecause I don't know about you,
but I was in college when theADA came out.
So it's great to see thatthere's a lot more of pride and
empowerment with the youngergenerations getting into the
employment.
And I really hope that kind ofpushes employers to become more
(14:57):
comfortable in having thatconversation and exploring
adaptive of ways of, of workingwith persons with disabilities
on their staff, because we arenatural born problem solvers.
And you, especially more so thanme.
I think that the world wasn'tbuilt for us necessarily in some
ways, but we, we figure a lot ofthings out and I think maybe you
(15:21):
having sight and then losing itlater in life is much different
than me being born the way I wasthat you, you had to get real
creative in, in learning to, toget on with your cane or, or
whatever.
And that's one thing I wanted totalk about.
You trained for your O and M in,in Virginia, but before we
(15:41):
started the conversation, yousaid you actually started
learning some basic skills inPittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Doug (15:47):
I did learn, uh, orientation, mobility, and
frankly, adjustment to blindness, um, back in Ohio where I live,
but I took the, the training inPittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but I
just wanted to make, um, peoplewith disabilities who may be
listening to this, especiallypeople with vision impairment
who may be losing vision.
(16:08):
Then I did not handle this verywell.
And I'm the first to admit it.
I was very stubborn.
I, uh, was getting calls fromthis particular training center
and I was ignoring them for twoor three weeks because I just, I
couldn't, I still had prettygood central vision.
My peripheral vision was reallygoing, and I just did not want
(16:29):
to be, I didn't want to acceptthat I would need a cane and so
forth.
So, um, I finally just kind ofkicked my, my own rear end and,
and ended up, um, going to thistraining, which ended up being
four months in, in dormitorytraining, uh, ended up really
loving it.
(16:50):
Um, but I'll just give you aquick story of, um, when things
really kind of dawned on me when, uh, it was one of my first
mobility, white cane trips, andI still had a little bit of
vision.
So they would blind for me.
Um, my mobility instructor, justto make sure, but I was, it was
early morning and I was walkingdown the sidewalk and there was
(17:12):
a person.
Um, apparently he was around myage and he was kind of shaking
his keys, but he was walkingbehind me and he was, uh, he was
headed obviously to his job.
And, um, because he, he, hejumped in the car next to me as
I was walking on the sidewalkafter he was walking behind me,
but I had this panic attackbecause that was me only cause I
(17:35):
stopped driving like two yearsearlier.
So, um, that's when I realizedthat this was my new vehicle and
then I'm not, I'm never going tobe able to do that.
So, um, so it was difficult atthe beginning, but I honestly, I
wish I used the cane earlierbecause I have scars all over my
shins from me being stubborn.
Shelly (17:56):
They're warrior wounds.
Oh dear.
Yeah,
Doug (18:01):
Absolutely.
It was, um, my, my own, um,perception of what other people
thought of me.
I cared way too much about that.
And then you just have torealize it's not what other
people think is none of yourbusiness.
And once you're able to do that,it's like, oh, I don't have to
stress out about this.
Shelly (18:20):
In growing up in the decades that I did, I can say
that it wasn't cool to hang outwith the disabled child in the
school.
So I had a lot of, I think,anxiety growing up and it took
me until almost 30 to just say,you know what, it's, it's not my
(18:43):
problem.
It's your problem.
And you need to either get overit or move on or whatever, or
sit down and have a conversationwith me and learn because one in
four Americans have some sort ofmental or physical disability
and it will find you eventually.
So it's, it's, it's challenging.
Do you feel it since obviouslyyou've lived with your blindness
(19:07):
for a couple of years, decadesor whatever, do you feel you
would be the same person todayif you still had your site or do
you think you're better off thatyou've learned some good,
valuable lessons?
Doug (19:20):
I think, um, well, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a brain
twister just because
Shelly (19:29):
(laughter) I know that's not on the list because, but
it's something I thought of.
So how is it for you?
Doug (19:35):
You know, and, and that's something that I, I definitely
have thought of because when Iwent to that Pittsburgh back
then it was skilled for theblind, a Pittsburgh division
services.
That was the first time I'd beenaround people with vision
impairment in a large group.
So people of all different walksof life.
And I was sitting at the lunchtable and I didn't know anyone.
(19:55):
And there was an older gentlemanand an older woman sitting
across from me and he was anoxygen tent.
Um, I guess you'd call it mishapwhere he, he was, he never had
vision.
And he said, wow, that must bereally difficult.
That two years ago you weredriving and now you're, you
know, you're here.
(20:16):
And I said, well, it is.
And, and he said, yeah, it'sinteresting that people think
just because I've never seenthat, I don't miss something.
Like, just because in otherwords, you don't miss what you
never had.
And he said, no, I want whateveryone else has.
So having been on the side ofvision, in fact, I took a, u h,
(20:39):
i t's a whole other story.
I took a, a y ear r ail triparound Europe to see all of the
Sistine chapel, t he C oliseum,t he Louve, the art pieces all
the way out to Budapest, Hungarygetting all of that information
i n visually before potentially.
I lost vision that, that nowthat I don't have vision, I
(21:00):
think the positive is I am notobviously the person.
I don't think I would be thesame person with vision because
my goals were all different backthen.
I watched all of my friendsreally succeed and really kind
of be Titans of the world as faras what their employment success
and things like that.
And I thought that was what wasmost important.
(21:22):
U h, whereas now I just, I justhave this whole other
perspective that, u m, you know,doing things and getting things
and acquiring things are notimportant.
You know, as long as you're ableto get one day further than you
were in the past.
So, and maybe S helly you'veexperienced this too.
(21:42):
It's like, you don't...
You don't always have good days.
And a lot of times when you'regetting into y our, maybe some
bad thinking is when you'reprojecting the future, that you
should be at this point andyou're not succeeding v ersus I
've found it h elp, helpful togo, wow, this w as where I was
15, 20 years ago.
And this is where I am now look,look at the progress I've made
(22:06):
from a point when I didn't thinkI could do anything or anyone w
ho would hire me or, y ou k now,t hat, that type of thinking.
So it's, I think it's a positiveand negative, well, not really
negative.
I think the thing t hat I m issout on most, o r just, just my
memories of being able to jumpin the car and opening the
windows and taken off and goingto the beach or, you know, just
(22:31):
without having to p replan.
Shelly (22:34):
So Doug, thank you so much for your time and attention
and all this wonderfulinformation.
And to my listeners thanks forlistening in today.
Be sure to join us next week onthe 17th to listen to part two
with Doug Goist and be sure tohit that Like and subscribe
button.
So you never miss an episode ofDisAbility Talks.
Music (23:11):
[inaudible]
Outro (23:15):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of DisAbilityTalks.
Want to keep the conversationgoing?
Then visit our website atAbilitiesinmotion.org, or
connect with us on social media.
And remember don't dis myability.
Welcome to DisAbility Talks, a podcast produced by
Abilities in Motion.
I'm your host, Shelly Houser.
Join us for real conversationsand no nonsense talk from
everyday people withdisabilities, living their most
independent everyday lives.
Tune in for the latest newssurrounding disability,
accessibility and independence.
(00:23):
Where conversations aren'tdissed and stories that need to
be told aren't missed.
So let's talk.
Shelly (00:30):
Thanks for joining DisAbility Talks.
I am your host Shelly Houser.
And today my guest is DougGoist.
He is the Program Manager forworkforce development at NSITE
in Virginia.
He has worked with theDepartment of Defense and other
military and federal agenciesfor the last 10 years.
He has led a panel discussionwith MIT and has spoken with
fortune about how COVID-19 ischanging the workplace for
(00:53):
persons with blindnessrethinking employment options
for us will affect 49 millionAmericans with disabilities.
And Doug is here to discuss thattoday.
Welcome Doug.
Thanks for being on the show,
Doug (01:04):
Shelly I really appreciate your invitation.
Um, it's always great to be ableto spread the word on the
importance of addressingdisabilities in this case
blindness.
So, um, thank you for having me.
Shelly (01:16):
Absolutely.
It's my pleasure.
So we had connected maybe abouta year ago and have stayed in
touch and the more I've dug intoyour history and your
background, you've had anenormous background, quite
extensive of all the work thatyou've done with military and
federal agents and MIT and somany more, which we'll get into
soon.
(01:37):
But I wanted to start basicallyfrom the very, very beginning
when you were still a senior inhigh school and you had your
site, correct?
Doug (01:45):
That is correct.
I did have my s ight.
And, u m,
Shelly (01:51):
And what happened then?
Doug (01:52):
Well, it's kind of like the cliched American normal
so-called normal upbringing.
You know, I have a brother,sister, uh, parents, and we had
two dogs and, um, we're all veryactive.
We're all career oriented as faras, as just, you know, doing the
right things and progressing upin being a productive member of
society and, uh, tied to thatwas our passion in sports.
(02:17):
So frankly, my, my father is ourhero really he's he, he was an
incredible athlete.
He was an all American footballplayer drafted by the Detroit
lions.
He, he never went in fact, he's,he still owns his high school
track record that has stood for70 years and his hurdles record
stood for 50 years.
(02:37):
But anyway, so he's our heroes.
So my brother and I and sisterwere all very active in sports.
My brother and I were basketballplayers.
His team was ranked first in thestate.
My team was ranked fifth andwe're four years apart.
But anyway, my senior year I wasplaying four or five sports and
I noticed I seem to be gettingworse from my junior year.
(02:59):
So in baseball, that was, uh, Iwould, I couldn't see, I lose
track of where the ball was inthe air.
It was under my feet.
I didn't see it during a gamerunners around running around
the bases, but I most noticed itin basketball.
I, um, was colliding with myteammates.
(03:21):
I was called out of bounds once,and I was looking at the ref,
like, what are you talkingabout?
And I looked down at my foot andit was definitely out of bounds.
So things like that werehappening.
And I, I thought I need toeither see a brain specialist or
something.
Shelly (03:38):
What exactly is your diagnosis with your loss of
sight?
Doug (03:44):
It's um, it's, uh, inherited retinal degeneration
called retinitis pigmentosa.
Um, I wouldn't say all of a lotof the times, but it's
primarily, there's a familymember with it.
My parents both happen to becarriers, which is one in
apparently one in 88, 0 peoplecarry this recessive gene and
(04:06):
they were both one in 80 and thechances of their child having
it, it was one in four and I'mthe third of three.
So there's no, there's notreatment or cure.
Shelly (04:18):
So we all struggle as persons with disabilities,
millions of us with employment.
And even though the ADA has beenaround for what, 31 years this
year?
I think title one of the ADA,which covers employment really
was the biggest part of the ADAthat didn't stick.
Would you agree with that?
Doug (04:38):
Yeah, it's I would.
And I guess the good news is,um, the fact that there's an,
even an ADA at all.
Um, it's been 31 years now.
Um, and frankly, um, as I waslosing vision, you know, it
wasn't, it wasn't a, uh, wasn'teven really on the radar.
(05:02):
So, you know, it's, it's, it'sdefinitely getting better, but
obviously in the employment, um,area, uh, there's a lot of talks
obviously rightfully aboutdiversity and equity and
inclusion, but it, I hear itover and over and over again.
When I, when I hear people usingthe, the, the list of kind of
(05:25):
diversity measures, they kind oftrail off when they get to
disability and sometimes it'snot even addressed.
It's, it's all of the otherareas are addressed, but
disability often gets left offin the kind of, we feel left out
a little bit.
Shelly (05:39):
I, and I agree with that because I recently talked to an
agency that was looking fordisability and inclusion
consultant.
And when I brought upaccessibility and disability,
they were like, well, that's notwhat we meant.
I'm like, well, that's a hugepart of, it's not just, you
know, this community, thecolored community or LGBT
(06:00):
community or eight elderly, youknow, older community of
workers, but it absolutely is.
So what's the statistic ofpersons with disabilities that
are employed versus unemployedin the United States.
Do you have that statistic?
Doug (06:16):
I think it's a, it's a good question.
And I think that's a combinationof all, all of what you
mentioned.
So I think it's, um, mostly alack of awareness because, um,
honestly when, uh, when I wasfully sighted prior to my
diagnosis, I, I, I had no,absolutely no concept of what it
(06:40):
was like to be blind or what iteven meant or what people could
do.
So, um, because I, I never cameacross anyone or maybe if I did,
I, I just never had theopportunity to interact with
somebody and then, and that goeswith other disabilities as well.
So I think it's, I think it's acomfort level that may be some
(07:01):
that a hiring manager, you know,they're, they're just trying to
find the right person.
And so nobody wants to feeluncomfortable.
So if somebody comes in with awheelchair or white cane, or
what have you, and they're notprepared to ask the questions
that they asked everyone else,and they're afraid to say the
(07:21):
wrong thing, um, for fear ofreprisal, potentially, I think
that's there, that's where someof the hesitation is.
And then the biggest hesitation,at least for blindness is, um,
uh, real perceived, lack of, uh,lack of, um, uh, lowered,
basically lowered expectation ofsomebody because preconceived in
(07:43):
your mind, you're like, well,you're blind.
I mean, how are you going to dothis job without ever asking the
person how they'll be able to dothe job it's written off?
Shelly (07:56):
So where's that disconnect with employers versus
persons with any kind ofdisability that can work?
You know, some of us havemaster's degree, doctorate
degrees, we worked for 10, 15,20 years.
Doug (08:12):
Yeah.
And it's obviously a case bycase basis because I always make
the point that I, every,everyone wants everyone I think
is good and, and at heart innature, and they want to give
people chances.
Um, there may be cases where,um, frankly, they, in the past,
they gave somebody anopportunity who didn't work out
(08:32):
or that person threatened maybelegal litigation, um, maybe
deservingly, maybe undeservinglyand they just don't, you know,
they had, let's just say theyhad a bad experience with
somebody.
So that's why I know at insight,when we talk with job
candidates, it's like, um, youhave to have this awareness
(08:54):
going in that, um, you know, youare your, you are the pioneer
here and potentially, so if theyhave a good experience with you,
they're going to be way moreopen to hiring more people
behind you.
So, so it's both sides, youknow?
Shelly (09:15):
Right.
Absolutely.
So does your company insight,help employers work through this
challenge?
Doug (09:25):
We do.
So, you know, our primarymission is we, we call it talent
management, connecting andcorporate employers in the, you
know, in the private sector withtalented people who are visually
impaired and blind.
So on the corporate side, ourcorporate partners.
So what we offer is we have ajob board called, Insight
(09:45):
Connect that we have candidatesin the resumes and profiles that
we have there.
And then we also offer them thatconversation in that analysis of
coming into their, theircompanies and looking at their
job positions, they may haveemployees with disabilities,
blindness, or low vision.
(10:05):
And we tell them, we show themthe little things, not the major
things in most cases that theycan do to help, help that
employee succeed.
And then for our job candidatesthat they want to hire, we
assist the company andonboarding that person, showing
them exactly what they need,looking at their platforms and
(10:26):
systems and saying, Hey, thissystem could be adjusted a
little bit.
It's not very accessible the wayit is, or if it's totally
accessible, we have thatconsulting piece of it as well.
We, we actually are working withcompanies actively right now
doing assessments and feedbackon their own technologies,
(10:47):
especially
Shelly (10:50):
From a candidate's perspective, how do you help
them identify their disabilityon the resume and help them go
through the interview, provingtheir, their quality of work
without mentioning theirdisability since it's an off the
table discussion at that point?
Doug (11:13):
Yeah.
You know, that is probably thebiggest question mark that, uh,
I know I experienced it aftervision loss because I point and
click with a mouse my waythrough my resume and made it
look pretty, you know, and didall of the neat little, little
things on it.
And, and then when I lostvision, I'm like, I can do all
(11:38):
of these, this video productionwork and all of these other
things, but I can't really dothat now.
So, um, what do I put on there?
So my recommendation, at leastpersonally, and I think it just
in general insights, attitudethat focus on the job position,
making sure that you are skilledwith, with each of the duties,
(12:03):
whatever requirements those are,if it's Microsoft office and you
need your, you want anaccounting job, you'd better
know county, you better knowExcel and formulas, but as far
as do I have a guide dog or Iuse a white cane, or I use a
screen reading technology, Idon't think that's necessary for
(12:26):
that resume because it, youdon't want to give the potential
employer when you're competingagainst a hundred other people,
50 or 30.
You don't want to give thatpotential.
It's not a negative, but it'sjust kind of a question mark in
that, in that hiring manager'smind.
So at that point, it's, itshouldn't be front and center
(12:48):
your disability.
So when you get to the jobinterview, you know, we
recommend that you put it outupfront to the person
interviewing you.
You sit there for instance,you're walking with a white cane
and you sit down, I would say,look, I am visually impaired,
obviously I'm blind.
And I just wanted to allay anyconcerns you may have about how
(13:10):
I'm able to do this position.
Here's how I do work and thenkind of rattle off what you're
able to do.
And, and as long as you do thatwith confidence and positivity,
I think that goes a long way.
Shelly (13:23):
It sounds like what you're saying is maybe leading
that conversation, even thoughtechnically it's off the table
for the employer interviewing,but just let them know that
you're confident and capablecandidate and then move on and
lead by example.
Doug (13:38):
Absolutely.
Because if neither partyaddresses there, there's going
to be that question of, well,I'm really not sure how that
person can do it budget, but ifyou come in there and you say
that I've been doing budgetingfor family's business for two
years, you know, and this iswhat I do with Excel and so
(13:58):
forth.
And you don't have to get intothe details of exactly how your
technology works, but it's thatmessage of commanding respect
and not kind of demandingrespect.
It's that there's a definitedifference between that.
And coming out empowered andpositive is it really goes along
.
Shelly (14:16):
What I've seen with on various social media platforms
that the younger generations, 20early 30 generations, they're
taking a lot of pride in theirdisability and with employment.
And they're really just puttingit out there, flat on the table,
dragging that elephant andshoving it out of the room.
(14:37):
And it's quite impressivebecause I don't know about you,
but I was in college when theADA came out.
So it's great to see thatthere's a lot more of pride and
empowerment with the youngergenerations getting into the
employment.
And I really hope that kind ofpushes employers to become more
(14:57):
comfortable in having thatconversation and exploring
adaptive of ways of, of workingwith persons with disabilities
on their staff, because we arenatural born problem solvers.
And you, especially more so thanme.
I think that the world wasn'tbuilt for us necessarily in some
ways, but we, we figure a lot ofthings out and I think maybe you
(15:21):
having sight and then losing itlater in life is much different
than me being born the way I wasthat you, you had to get real
creative in, in learning to, toget on with your cane or, or
whatever.
And that's one thing I wanted totalk about.
You trained for your O and M in,in Virginia, but before we
(15:41):
started the conversation, yousaid you actually started
learning some basic skills inPittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Doug (15:47):
I did learn, uh, orientation, mobility, and
frankly, adjustment to blindness, um, back in Ohio where I live,
but I took the, the training inPittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but I
just wanted to make, um, peoplewith disabilities who may be
listening to this, especiallypeople with vision impairment
who may be losing vision.
(16:08):
Then I did not handle this verywell.
And I'm the first to admit it.
I was very stubborn.
I, uh, was getting calls fromthis particular training center
and I was ignoring them for twoor three weeks because I just, I
couldn't, I still had prettygood central vision.
My peripheral vision was reallygoing, and I just did not want
(16:29):
to be, I didn't want to acceptthat I would need a cane and so
forth.
So, um, I finally just kind ofkicked my, my own rear end and,
and ended up, um, going to thistraining, which ended up being
four months in, in dormitorytraining, uh, ended up really
loving it.
(16:50):
Um, but I'll just give you aquick story of, um, when things
really kind of dawned on me when, uh, it was one of my first
mobility, white cane trips, andI still had a little bit of
vision.
So they would blind for me.
Um, my mobility instructor, justto make sure, but I was, it was
early morning and I was walkingdown the sidewalk and there was
(17:12):
a person.
Um, apparently he was around myage and he was kind of shaking
his keys, but he was walkingbehind me and he was, uh, he was
headed obviously to his job.
And, um, because he, he, hejumped in the car next to me as
I was walking on the sidewalkafter he was walking behind me,
but I had this panic attackbecause that was me only cause I
(17:35):
stopped driving like two yearsearlier.
So, um, that's when I realizedthat this was my new vehicle and
then I'm not, I'm never going tobe able to do that.
So, um, so it was difficult atthe beginning, but I honestly, I
wish I used the cane earlierbecause I have scars all over my
shins from me being stubborn.
Shelly (17:56):
They're warrior wounds.
Oh dear.
Yeah,
Doug (18:01):
Absolutely.
It was, um, my, my own, um,perception of what other people
thought of me.
I cared way too much about that.
And then you just have torealize it's not what other
people think is none of yourbusiness.
And once you're able to do that,it's like, oh, I don't have to
stress out about this.
Shelly (18:20):
In growing up in the decades that I did, I can say
that it wasn't cool to hang outwith the disabled child in the
school.
So I had a lot of, I think,anxiety growing up and it took
me until almost 30 to just say,you know what, it's, it's not my
(18:43):
problem.
It's your problem.
And you need to either get overit or move on or whatever, or
sit down and have a conversationwith me and learn because one in
four Americans have some sort ofmental or physical disability
and it will find you eventually.
So it's, it's, it's challenging.
Do you feel it since obviouslyyou've lived with your blindness
(19:07):
for a couple of years, decadesor whatever, do you feel you
would be the same person todayif you still had your site or do
you think you're better off thatyou've learned some good,
valuable lessons?
Doug (19:20):
I think, um, well, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a brain
twister just because
Shelly (19:29):
(laughter) I know that's not on the list because, but
it's something I thought of.
So how is it for you?
Doug (19:35):
You know, and, and that's something that I, I definitely
have thought of because when Iwent to that Pittsburgh back
then it was skilled for theblind, a Pittsburgh division
services.
That was the first time I'd beenaround people with vision
impairment in a large group.
So people of all different walksof life.
And I was sitting at the lunchtable and I didn't know anyone.
(19:55):
And there was an older gentlemanand an older woman sitting
across from me and he was anoxygen tent.
Um, I guess you'd call it mishapwhere he, he was, he never had
vision.
And he said, wow, that must bereally difficult.
That two years ago you weredriving and now you're, you
know, you're here.
(20:16):
And I said, well, it is.
And, and he said, yeah, it'sinteresting that people think
just because I've never seenthat, I don't miss something.
Like, just because in otherwords, you don't miss what you
never had.
And he said, no, I want whateveryone else has.
So having been on the side ofvision, in fact, I took a, u h,
(20:39):
i t's a whole other story.
I took a, a y ear r ail triparound Europe to see all of the
Sistine chapel, t he C oliseum,t he Louve, the art pieces all
the way out to Budapest, Hungarygetting all of that information
i n visually before potentially.
I lost vision that, that nowthat I don't have vision, I
(21:00):
think the positive is I am notobviously the person.
I don't think I would be thesame person with vision because
my goals were all different backthen.
I watched all of my friendsreally succeed and really kind
of be Titans of the world as faras what their employment success
and things like that.
And I thought that was what wasmost important.
(21:22):
U h, whereas now I just, I justhave this whole other
perspective that, u m, you know,doing things and getting things
and acquiring things are notimportant.
You know, as long as you're ableto get one day further than you
were in the past.
So, and maybe S helly you'veexperienced this too.
(21:42):
It's like, you don't...
You don't always have good days.
And a lot of times when you'regetting into y our, maybe some
bad thinking is when you'reprojecting the future, that you
should be at this point andyou're not succeeding v ersus I
've found it h elp, helpful togo, wow, this w as where I was
15, 20 years ago.
And this is where I am now look,look at the progress I've made
(22:06):
from a point when I didn't thinkI could do anything or anyone w
ho would hire me or, y ou k now,t hat, that type of thinking.
So it's, I think it's a positiveand negative, well, not really
negative.
I think the thing t hat I m issout on most, o r just, just my
memories of being able to jumpin the car and opening the
windows and taken off and goingto the beach or, you know, just
(22:31):
without having to p replan.
Shelly (22:34):
So Doug, thank you so much for your time and attention
and all this wonderfulinformation.
And to my listeners thanks forlistening in today.
Be sure to join us next week onthe 17th to listen to part two
with Doug Goist and be sure tohit that Like and subscribe
button.
So you never miss an episode ofDisAbility Talks.
Music (23:11):
[inaudible]
Outro (23:15):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of DisAbilityTalks.
Want to keep the conversationgoing?
Then visit our website atAbilitiesinmotion.org, or
connect with us on social media.
And remember don't dis myability.
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