December 8, 2023 • 40 mins
In this episode of the Discovering Our Scars Podcast, hosts Beth Demme and Stephanie Kostopoulos discuss chapter 9 of Steph's memoir, "Discovering My Scars." We unveil the profound power of vulnerability as we navigate the choppy waters of past traumas, workplace mental health, and PTSD.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Beth Demme (00:04):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
Where we share personal experiences so we
can learn from each other.
I'm Steph and I'm Beth.
I've been in recovery for 17years and am the author of
Discovering my Scars, my memoirabout what's done in the
darkness eventually comes tolight.
I'm a lawyer, a turn pastor,who's all about self-awareness
and emotional health, because Iknow what it's like to have
neither of those things, bethand I have been friends for
years, have gone through arecovery program together, and
(00:27):
when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that
came to mind as co-host.
Beth Demme (00:30):
I didn't hesitate to say yes, because I've learned a
lot from sharing personalexperiences with Steph over the
years.
We value honest conversationsand we hope you do too.
On today's show, we're going tohave an honest conversation
titled Discovering my ScarsChapter 9.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:44):
Then we'll share a slice of life, and
the show will close withquestions for reflection.
We'll invite you to reflect onthe conversation in your own
life.
Beth Demme (00:51):
Chapter 9.
Chapter 9 of your memoirDiscovering my Scars, the
inspiration for our podcast,discovering Our Scars, yes, yeah
.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:00):
We're going to continue right along,
so we're going to listen to theaudio of the book and then we'll
pause between to kind of do adeeper dive.
Chapter 9, 43,829 hours.
I was 25 years old and had beenphysically free from Nicole's
place for 43,829 hours, In otherwords, five years.
(01:24):
My body was in the free world,but my brain was not.
Every day was hard.
I lived in fear of going backto Nicole's place and of what
happened to me while I was there.
I would hear the screams andalarms in my head.
I would feel cold and instantlybe transported back to my
hospital room.
I wasn't free.
One thing that helped my racingbrain music I played the song
(01:48):
set me free by casting crownsover and over.
During this time.
I even made a video depictingscenes from my childhood of me
in my dorm room right after myrelease, including my fresh
scars.
Little did I know at the timehow powerful that juxtaposition
was.
Each day I felt like the shellof the person I was during the
(02:09):
74 hours of my experience fiveyears earlier.
I couldn't keep up my I'm ahappy human show anymore.
I knew something had to happen.
I had to get away from work andlook inward.
I loved my job at Apple, but Iconsidered quitting it because I
was not sure I could get thetime off that I needed.
Do you ever feel like you'reputting on a happy human?
Beth Demme (02:30):
show.
Yeah, sometimes I do.
I mean not not for days at atime, you know, but for an event
or something.
I might be like you know, I'mgonna, I'm gonna kind of what do
I say?
Or what do we say?
Like I've heard people say likeI'm gonna park it.
I've even been in meetings likewhere it starts out that way
what do you need to park to befully present here?
I have never heard that wordbefore Park.
(02:52):
Is that a new thing?
I don't know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:55):
It's like wait, what do you need In past
or meeting?
Oh okay, what do?
Beth Demme (02:58):
you need to park in order, yeah.
So what are you gonna park sothat you can be fully present
for this meeting?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:04):
Something you told me a while back that
I'm good at.
Beth Demme (03:07):
What's that word?
So compartmentalize, yes, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:09):
You've said that to me before that I'm
good at that.
Beth Demme (03:12):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:13):
Like putting things like okay, you'll
deal with this now, then you'regonna deal with this.
Is that like the same thing asparking something?
Yes, that's like the new coolpastor word, so yeah.
So what are we?
Beth Demme (03:23):
gonna park over here .
What do you need to park?
I need to park my to-do list.
I need to park my you know,this person who I'm worried
about because they're in thehospital or whatever.
I need to park this so that Ican really be here.
So that's kind of maybe the thethe short term idea of I'm
gonna put on a happy human showbecause it's saying there are
(03:43):
things that are distracting meor dragging me down, but I I'm
gonna intentionally set themaside for right now.
But it sounds like in your book, like this is not just a
temporary thing, like this isday after day.
You have something that ispulling you back in time and and
you're having to Now that Ihave an opportunity to do that,
I have a package called thetechnical who fake it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:04):
Well and I think that's interesting the
word like what are you going topark?
Because you don't.
You know, with a car you don'tjust keep it parked, you have to
keep it moving.
And so you're talking abouttemporarily parking, but then
when you get, when you're done,then you're going to move it and
work on it.
And so for me, this wasn'tworking on it, it was just this
was the show I was putting onand, um, not actually dealing
(04:28):
with the stuff that needed to bedealt with.
Yeah, one day I got the courageto talk to our new store leader,
marco.
He and I had a good workingrelationship.
He respected me, my team and myleadership.
When the meeting began, I hadno idea what I was going to say.
All I had was mustard seedfaith.
(04:49):
I told Marco I loved my job andwanted to keep it, but I needed
some time to focus on me and mymental health.
I told him I would like to takea month off and go back to
Tallahassee to have some timewith my doctor.
When I finished sharing which Idid calmly and concisely he
looked at my face with kindnessand compassion in his.
He told me I could go, I shouldgo.
(05:10):
He didn't want to lose me as anemployee.
He fully supported me takingtime off for myself.
He said he would let me putvacation and sick time together
so I could go get paid with myjob waiting for me.
When I got back.
This was a mustard seed moment.
It was a moment that didn'tseem real, but it was real
because it had been God's planfor me all along.
Beth Demme (05:31):
Okay, I wanted to pause there because you say in
the book he told me I could go,I should go, and we've had a lot
of conversations about how noone can shoot on us.
But this was a good should.
That was a good should.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:48):
Yeah, I knew you would call that out.
Yeah, I even texted should tomy mom the other day and she was
like I'm not going to shoot onyou and put should in all caps.
I was like what do you think Ishould do or something?
She's like I will not shoot onyou.
I love that it's become such aningrained thing that we like
(06:08):
yeah If we hear should, oh no,no, no, no.
Beth Demme (06:11):
I.
You would be surprised howoften I use that.
Yeah, yeah, like that's myadvice to people oh, don't let
anyone shoot on you, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:17):
And it's true, because it's something
that I think societally like, wejust like we do things because
we should do them.
It's like wait, step back, doyou want to?
Yeah, is this something youwant to do?
Like, and don't let somebodytell you what you have to do or
need to do.
What do you want to do?
Is this important to you?
And don't just do it becauseyou should.
Beth Demme (06:39):
But this is an example of a good should.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:41):
Yes, it was.
Yeah, I like that.
When the time came, I packedand drove to Tallahassee in my
green Honda CR-V.
During the drive, I beganprocessing.
It felt like life stopped.
I was taking a break from thepath of success.
We are told to travel frombirth.
Get a job, work, get a mate,get a house, get a kid.
(07:04):
I pushed on the breaks.
No one ever added.
Work on yourself.
Learn to be, take time to lookinward and make sure you are
mentally well, happy and theperson God made you to be.
Beth Demme (07:17):
Okay, I want to stop you again.
We're never going to getthrough this job, right, that's
right.
Um, I wonder if this haschanged, um, if this is changing
generationally, and maybe ifCOVID pushed us to change this
way of thinking a little bit,the idea that you have to just
(07:38):
go, go, go, go go.
You have to set a goal and andit has to be like a straight
line from where you are to thatgoal, and pausing to work on
yourself is not okay, because Ifeel like I feel like people are
better at working on themselves.
Now I'm really nervous to saythis.
So, gen Z and maybe Gen Alpha,which I think is the one after Z
(08:01):
, anyway, they, they seem to beall about working on themselves.
Like, I have a really wonderfulalmost 20 year old who works
for me and she has no problemtexting me and saying I've had a
really hard few days and I needtime for my mental health and
we have a flexible schedule, soit's all.
(08:22):
It's easy for me to always say,okay, no problem, come in the
next day or, like you know, dothis at home or whatever.
Um, but she just she wouldn'thesitate to say that, and I
don't know if it's because I'm apastor and she works in a
church, or if it's because thatgeneration is better at it, or
if maybe COVID moved the needleon it in some way.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:41):
Why are you so nervous to say it?
Beth Demme (08:42):
Well, I don't want it to sound like I'm being
critical of her, because I'mreally not.
She always gets her work done.
She's an excellent you knowemployee, um great young woman
Like.
I'm super happy that she and Iget to work together, so I don't
want it to sound like I'm beingdismissive of her needs.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:59):
But that's interesting.
Why do you think that that ismaking her seem like like less
than, or that like?
Beth Demme (09:06):
why do you think that it's not?
That is that I don't want it toseem like I think she's less
than because she's doing it, butsee, when you said the story, I
didn't think anything of.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:17):
I didn't think that at all.
But you think, by sharing thestory, that it makes you sound
like she's less than.
Beth Demme (09:23):
Yeah, like I don't want it to seem like I'm not
supportive of the idea of hertaking time for her mental
health, because I'm all about it, my point really was just that
she's she wouldn't hesitate tosay I'm going to take time to
work on my mental health.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:36):
When you say that to me I hear great job
like knowing yourself, knowingyour boundaries, knowing what
you need to be the rightemployee for at your job.
That's what I heard.
Yes, but when you said it, youthink that I'm hearing that she
is not a hundred percentdedicated to the job.
Beth Demme (09:56):
Well, I mean, even in the book, like you were, like
I don't know how I'm going tohandle this with my job telling
them that I need to take timeoff and that you, you were
taking a break from the path ofsuccess you know.
So that's my question is do youthink that this is different
now?
If you were in this situationnow, do you think it would be
different?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:15):
I do think that the younger
generation, I do think likemillennials, like I think we,
you know, break down walls tosay, like this is important,
like when I was, like in, youknow, traditional nine to five,
like mental health was not areason for being out of work,
like Apple, now they, you cantake mental health days.
Beth Demme (10:38):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:39):
Like and we were all doing it before, but
we felt bad about it when wewere calling it a sick day.
It's like, well, I'm not sick,but I am, but like and you can
just call out for mental healthday and I think that is great,
but we, I think millennials,we're at that cusper.
It wasn't understood and we hadto like try to make those
changes and I think the youngergeneration is benefiting from us
(11:02):
.
Like saying this isn't okay,working a thousand hours a week
is not okay, like I need a break.
I don't know a lot of youngerpeople.
I do know my girlfriend worksat a vet office and they have
like younger people that workthere like in their twenties and
yeah, she's told me stories ofwhere the younger people are
like I just need a mental healthday, which can be annoying
(11:25):
because you need like employees.
But it's also that balance oflike it is a balance.
I think.
I think it can be overdone, Ithink it can be done perfect.
I also, at the end of the day,it's not my place to to judge
someone's journey and what needsto happen.
If I worked in a night,traditional nine to five today,
(11:49):
maybe I would have a differentopinion on that and like setting
boundaries in a workplace ofwhat that looks like.
But no, I think that's superimportant that mental health is
brought up in a very normal way,just like being sick with you
know flu or something I thinkyou know needing a mental health
break should be discussed inthe same manner.
Beth Demme (12:10):
Yeah, see, when I was, when I was working like as
a lawyer, when I was workingfull time, in that way you
didn't take time off Like noteven for the flu, right, like
you came in, you made everybodyelse sick because any taking any
kind of like unplanned time offwas completely unacceptable.
You had to plan your vacationin advance.
(12:31):
Everybody had to know, and thatreally needed to be the focus
of your life and what your lifewas organized around, instead of
it being that work was just apart of your life.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:41):
Yeah, and and that was similar when I
worked at Apple was like youknow, you get this and this, but
this is when you're required tobe here, and so, and it was.
I do think it was.
I think millennials are thattransitional kind of generation
in that sense of, like you hadthat strict.
The generation after us has,like you know, way less strict
(13:04):
or more open, and so we werekind of that transition where we
were like dealing with bothsides of that.
A few days into my time away, Igot ready for my session with
Dr Jill.
As I took a shower that morning, I thought about how strange it
seemed I was going through allthis effort to take time for
myself and yet I didn't evenknow what was wrong with me.
(13:26):
But I guess that was the pointto try to figure it out with Dr
Jill.
I wanted to tell her how I feltdepressed all the time, how I
didn't trust people and how Ihad flashbacks to the hospital
at random moments.
Then it hit me Everything wasrelated to the 74 hours.
Everything I had been feelingthese last five years could be
(13:47):
traced back to those moments.
It's as if I never leftNicole's place and the system
still had control over me.
The memories, feelings andoverwhelming emotions had a hold
on me and brought me back toNicole's place every day, as I
stood in the shower with warmwater pouring over my head.
I had another flashback.
I was back in the ice-coldshower.
(14:09):
I had to take in at Nicole'splace the first night with my
arm wrapped in plastic toprotect the stitches.
There were no hot and coldhandles in the shower.
As I walked toward the showerhead, ice-cold water suddenly
blasts down on me.
It was motion activated.
The water didn't begin to getwarm until I was done with my
shower.
The feeling of complete sadness, fear and longing to be home
(14:33):
filled me.
Then, just a few hours before Iwas to see Dr Jill, it popped
into my brain Is thispost-traumatic stress disorder?
Is that what's wrong?
I knew PTSD was large in themilitary community.
I knew it had to do with traumaand flashbacks and that there
was a treatment plan.
I pushed that thought in theback of my mind.
(14:54):
Then I had breakfast and wentto see my psychologist.
Dr Jill had moved into her newoffice building since my first
sessions with her.
She had a small, invitingwaiting room with soothing spa
music playing.
She called me back and I sat ona large couch with her across
from me in an armchair.
I told her everything that wascircling in my brain.
(15:14):
In the first 20 minutes shediagnosed me with post-traumatic
stress disorder.
My PTSD had resulted from the74 hours.
When she said the words, a hugeweight lifted off of me.
I had a name for what I hadbeen suffering from and it
wasn't all in my head.
It was very real.
It was debilitating, but wecould treat it.
Beth Demme (15:36):
What a relief, right To know what it is it's like.
Oh, there's a name for this andnow I can, with help, I can
tackle it, rather than it justbeing everything is bad and I
have to put on a happy humanface and I'm just not.
Something is just not right.
Something about having a namereally helps, doesn't it?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:57):
Yeah, I mean, I definitely remember
feeling the relief of that andjust that, because obviously I
kind of like thought that justthat morning.
But also, as we were readingthis, it struck me I think it
just now struck me I was takinga shower in the morning.
I never shower in the morning,I always shower at night.
So this is so strange to me.
(16:19):
I have no idea why I wasshowering in the morning, yeah,
like what.
And then like I, because Iwouldn't have had that like
flashback, mm-hmm, it's just solike wow, cause anyone that
knows me knows like I nevershower in the morning unless I
don't even know why.
Like I have no idea why.
(16:40):
Yeah, that is so strange to me,but I guess it was like what
needed to happen.
It was just like you know itall it all is how it's supposed
to happen.
Yeah, I definitely just I feltlike a relief and like oh, this
is something I've heard of, wecan treat it.
Beth Demme (16:57):
Right, she, like Dr Jill, knows what to do with PTSD
.
Okay, good, yeah, yeah, allright.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:04):
Now I had my what.
Knowing what the problem was, Ineeded my how.
How do I treat this?
Dr Jill told me there was not amagic pill, although it could
get back on depression meds, butshe didn't think that would
help.
Based on my history, the wayyou treat PTSD is to talk about
the traumatic events.
Dr Jill told me what I thought.
(17:24):
Talk, talk about the thingsthat tear me up inside and feel
like knives jabbing through myheart if I acknowledge them.
So simple, yet so terrifying.
All right, so now I'm not sohappy.
I thought we had some magicpills and stuff.
Right, right, so now you'resaying all you do is talk, right
.
So I went from like yay, wehave an answer to whoa.
Beth Demme (17:48):
No, no, no, that does not seem like the pill I
wanted.
I don't want to bask in thesememories.
They're terrible memories.
They make me uncomfortable.
I don't want to live in thatmoment again and again, but your
body, for five years, had beenwaiting for you to really deal
with it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:04):
Yeah, and to release it.
And that's all you do is yousay it to release it.
And that was no.
No, I was not excited about it.
Yeah, I went to my magic pilland the PTSD goes away.
So what you can do, well,actually there's not a lot of
like the flu.
(18:24):
You can't really take a magicpill.
Beth Demme (18:26):
There's not really magic pills for many things.
Well, I think people would say,like there's a pill for high
blood pressure, there's medicinefor diabetes, there's, you know
, like some of those things youcan manage with medication.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:39):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (18:41):
But this and it's, like you say, so simple yet so
terrifying.
Like it doesn't sound like itwould be hard to just talk about
something, but sometimes thereare things that are really hard
to talk about.
Talk about the worst moment ofyour life and go Right, right,
but it works, it does.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:00):
Oh, it is yeah, cause I'm on the other
side of this.
Yeah, it totally works.
But even now, like reading it,I'm like, yeah, that's not fun,
I want to cookie after at least.
Yeah, truly though now I thinkabout it Like I could have like
gotten something special aftereach of the sessions to like,
but I didn't.
I just you didn't need it.
Beth Demme (19:20):
Yeah, you just powered through.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:22):
Powered through Dr Jill, helped me
understand that what happened tome was not right and the
hospital is at fault for my PTSDbecause of its lack of proper
treatment.
During the 74 hours.
Everyone seemed so disgusted bymy wound.
I just couldn't understand whythis was all they focused on
(19:44):
until I started meeting with DrJill again.
She told me they thought I wastrying to kill myself a failed
suicide attempt.
It may seem obvious to youreading this now, but I honestly
had no idea.
This is what everyone wasthinking.
For me, self-injury isunrelated to suicide, but after
Dr Jill made this connection forme, I started to see why
(20:06):
everyone had concluded this.
Beth Demme (20:08):
I just want to affirm that yes, it is obvious
to everyone who's reading this.
Of course, they thought thatyou were trying to take your own
life.
That's why they made commentsabout how deep you had cut and
the whole hamburger comment andall that and why they were so I
mean, still, they did not dowhat they needed to do.
Nothing about it was handledright.
(20:29):
But I think even the policeofficer thought that.
So I just wanted to say yes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:38):
Dr Jill reminded me that I'm not a
cutter.
I should have never been sentto CRC, she said, because I was
not trying to kill myself orharm others.
I was engaging in non-suicidalself-injury NSSI the act of
feeling so much and not havingphysical pain to show for it.
My coping was to make theinternal pain real.
(20:59):
According to the AmericanPsychiatric Association's DSM-5,
the diagnostic feature of NSSIis an individual repeatedly
inflicting shallow yet painfulinjuries to the surface of his
or her body.
Most commonly, the purpose isto reduce negative emotions such
as tension, anxiety andself-reproach, and or to resolve
(21:21):
an interpersonal difficulty.
The injury is most oftenafflicted with a knife, needle,
razor or other sharp objects.
Common areas for injury includethe frontal area of the thigh
and the dorsal side of theforearm.
A single session of injurymight involve a series of
superficial parallel cuts,separated by one or two
(21:41):
centimeters, on a visible oraccessible location.
When I read into NSSI, Irealized I was a classic
textbook case.
It's like they wrote thediagnostic all about me.
It was comforting to have anofficial name for my coping.
Beth Demme (21:57):
Again, it's comforting to have a name for it
.
Yeah, I would imagine that youfeel less strange, maybe like oh
, I'm not the only one and thisisn't something that Dr Jill's
never seen before Like this issomething that is known and
understood.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:14):
The odd thing, though, is it was a
fairly new realization withinthe diagnostic for a
psychologist.
Like their DSM-5, like there'sfive versions of that, I mean
there might be a six now.
Every time there's a newpublished one, they have new
diagnostics and things like thatinside of it, and so this was
(22:36):
new for the fifth version, so Iwas kind of dealing with this
while it was becoming known.
Also, and even though it isknown in the it's official
diagnostic, it's still not likewhen I tell people about it
they've never heard of it, likemedical professionals, like they
are like what, and so I meanit's in the name, not just a
(22:59):
thing of injury.
it kind of self-explanatory, butit still is not like something
that is like regularly known andused in common language because
it's there, but it's notsomething that has, like, hit
social media or anything in thatsense that I believe I don't
like super follow that.
Beth Demme (23:19):
but but also especially five years before
this.
It definitely wasn't part of.
It was not understood.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:28):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (23:30):
You also say that Dr Jill reminded you that you're
not a cutter, so can you tell mewhat that means?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:37):
Well, cutter is the term kind of she
used for someone that wassuicidal, like cutting
themselves to, you know, forpossible, like suicidal purposes
, and it's very much adistinguishing factor.
So if someone is trying to, youknow, die by suicide, they cut
(23:58):
in a way that would like cut thevein.
Yes, and mine, as they say inthe description, is like the
parallel cuts lower down, likewhere I cut or where I, you know
, self-injured was not a waythat could result in.
If it resulted in suicide insome capacity, it would have
(24:19):
been an accident Like itwouldn't have been, but not I
don't even think that could havehappened with the way it was
done.
Yeah, I don't know if that'sstill like the proper
terminology, but she would usethe word cutter as someone that
was suicidal.
Suicidal and so not suicidalself-injury is the opposite.
But people still use thoseterms like actually, sometimes
(24:40):
my dad will call me a cutter andI'm like, okay, like oh, I
heard about someone else, it's acutter like you, or something
like that.
I'm like, good job,psychologist.
I correct him.
I'm like, well, was it notsuicidal self-injury?
Like how was the?
What kind of cuts, were they?
But yeah, so.
So there are people that stillwill use the terms
(25:01):
interchangeably, and then I'llcorrect them.
People are like oh, yeah, yeah,that's what I mean.
Beth Demme (25:04):
Yeah, Okay great.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:09):
Over the next few weeks I followed my
PTSD treatment plan.
I talked, I wrote, I scribbledreal and raw feelings and burned
them, as Dr Jill instructed meto do.
I talked to my parents and myfriends.
I let it all out.
Getting the hellish events outof me was freeing.
So was crying.
Dr Jill liked to prescribe agood cry.
(25:31):
During our sessions over themonth, dr Jill would remind me
with a reassuring smile that youare not crazy.
The police don't know how tohandle these kinds of situations
, so they bring all patientslike this to the same place.
The place you are in soundslike a place here in town and
it's not a hospital you shouldever be in.
They drug people and put themback in the streets.
(25:52):
Every session was hard.
They were draining, emotionallyand physically exhausting.
After going through it, I knewI could have never done it.
While still working at AppleMustered Seed, faith helped me
get to this place of healing.
As my time in Tallahassee wascoming to an end, my mom
recommended a new primary caredoctor for me.
A few years earlier I hadstopped taking Zoloft because,
(26:15):
having been on it for years, Ibegan to feel it controlling my
emotions and making meunrealistically happy.
It was a weird and scarysensation.
I wanted to go back on birthcontrol as my depression got
worse around my cycle, but I hadbeen too afraid to see a doctor
to prescribe it.
Dr K was my mom's doctor andwent to our hometown church.
(26:36):
I was so nervous and scared tosee her.
I told Dr K about my past andwhat I wanted to do
medication-wise.
She listened and her tone andbody language weren't judgmental
.
All the emotions hit me whiletelling my story and I started
to cry.
I cried because she heard me,she saw me and she didn't judge
(26:56):
my scars.
She gave me the prescriptionfor birth control and restored
my trust in medicalprofessionals.
She has been my primary caredoctor ever since.
I do want to say she's still mydoctor today, and so I've known
her since this, which was yearsand years ago, and recently
(27:19):
we've talked about the podcast.
But I realized that I was gayand so I, when my last set, my
last doctor's appointment, Itold her and I was like not sure
how she would respond becausewell, first I thought it's going
to be cool.
I mean, she's a doctor, likethat's like she's professional,
that's normal.
But also I knew her from mychurch and I know a lot of
(27:42):
church people that arejudgmental about things that are
outside of their worldview andso I really wasn't sure and when
I told her it was just like Ihad told her.
I was straight and it was verycool and chill and actually
every single person that I hadcared to tell in my life has
been cool and chill about it.
(28:02):
But yeah, so just like she waswith this same thing, just like
Great cool, I made greatprogress that month and the
months after I was able to seedoctors again and take care of
my health.
I also started to getacupuncture for chronic neck and
shoulder pain and unexplainablepain I've had since childhood.
(28:25):
I had dozens of sessions withmy acupuncturist and I'd become
really comfortable with theprocess.
But one day something wentwrong.
As I lay there, she put theneedles in like normal, but this
time she put a few in my leftarm, not near my scars, just on
the same arm.
As she inserted them, I had aflashback to the needle they
(28:46):
used to numb my arm right beforethey put the stitches in at the
ER.
She finished putting in theacupuncture needles and left the
room for 45 minutes, as shenormally did.
But this time I felt paralyzed.
I knew I could hit theemergency button and she would
come back in and take theneedles out, but I couldn't move
.
I couldn't think.
The acupuncture needles feltlike knives.
(29:08):
They burned and froze me.
For the next 45 minutes I wentback five years in time.
I was back in that tinyemergency room getting stitches.
I felt the pain.
I smelled the medical scent ofthe room.
I heard the nurse tell me tosit while the doctor worked.
I tasted my salty tears becausethe pain was so great.
I felt the pain, but I alsofelt the numbness and the
(29:31):
sensation of my arm beingstitched with needle and thread.
I felt the pull and tug.
I had the same sick feeling inthe pit of my stomach.
Finally, my acupuncturist cameback into the room and removed
the needles.
Like normal.
I kept myself together longenough to pay and get to my car.
Then I broke down.
I ugly cried all the way home.
(29:51):
I had never had a flashbackthat bad, that real.
I was afraid to go back,worried it would happen again.
Having worked through my PTSDdoes not mean it's gone for my
life.
Dr Jill told me it would staywith me and I might still have
flashbacks, but by working on itthe memories would not haunt me
and the flashbacks would notcompletely shut down my world.
(30:12):
I would recognize the feelingsand work through them.
Dr Jill was right.
The next week I did go back andI summoned up the courage to
tell my acupuncturist whathappened.
I told her about the 74 hours.
She was so understanding andkind to me.
She never put needles in myleft arm again and I never
experienced a flashback in anacupuncture session again.
(30:35):
That flashback sounds reallyhorrible.
It was yeah, I can still fullyremember that reading through
that.
It was.
Yeah, I can feel what that feltlike in laying there with that.
But yeah, that's what flashbacksare like.
I mean, honestly, I haven't hada flashback in a while.
(30:57):
Like I can't think of the lastone I had and it's been like I
still deal with NSSI thoughts attimes, like when things are
just like, when things areseeming like falling apart.
So probably, like maybe sixmonths ago, I had the thought
(31:18):
pop in my head and talk to Jillabout it and I didn't engage in
it, but I did have the thoughtsand she always reminds me like
you're gonna have the thoughts.
It's very much doled over timeLike it's not, as it's not
something I stress about, it'snot something I like get overly
concerned about.
But if I am having multiplethings that kind of tear me down
(31:39):
, I can really get to that placeand I just have put so much
work into it that I justremember to keep putting that
work into it and just go throughmy healthy tools to get through
them.
But yeah, I haven't really hada scar kind of pain in a really
(32:02):
long time.
Beth Demme (32:04):
I wonder if there was something about this session
with the acupuncturist thatobviously I mean it sounds like
it was really really hard, but Iwonder if there was some sense
in which it was a release ofsome of that, so that it
wouldn't continue to wait foryou to feel it and address it.
You know, and because you wereengaging in so much health care
(32:25):
and so much healthy work, youknow, with the acupuncture and
with your psychologist and withthe journaling and with you know
that like that was the momentat which your body could say,
okay, now I release this.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:36):
Yeah, that's an interesting look at it
.
Yeah, I mean in the sense oflike there was like moments that
there was just always gonna bethings down the timeline that
needed to be released in theproper way and you know, maybe
this was the way that this wasalways needing to be released.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Beth Demme (32:57):
Yeah well, I've said it before and I'm sure I will
say it again, but I think thatit's so brave of you to relive
this by putting it down on paperand by writing the book and by
now revisiting it.
I think that that takes courageand I think that people can,
even if you know they'll havetheir own story.
(33:17):
But I think it is relatable andI think it's good that you've
been courageous to share this.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:23):
Thank you , pastor Beth.
So, beth, we did an episodekind of about holiday season and
we just that's where we are.
Beth Demme (33:35):
we're in the holiday season.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:37):
We're in it and we just kind of got
through Thanksgiving and allthat.
So was there anything differentthat happened this year for
your Thanksgiving?
Beth Demme (33:46):
Yeah, any new members, we had a dog at
Thanksgiving which is reallyunusual.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:50):
Wait, your house.
Beth Demme (33:51):
At my house oh.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:53):
That's big.
We also had like 20 humans atthe house.
Oh and humans.
Beth Demme (33:57):
Yeah, but my daughter Hannah, who's been a
guest on the podcast.
She got a dog a few months agoand yes, that's big.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:06):
You guys are not dog people.
Beth Demme (34:07):
We're not dog people .
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:07):
You and your husband.
Beth Demme (34:08):
And both of my kids said as soon as I move out, I'm
getting a pet.
Yes, and they did Rebels.
I love it.
They did so.
My son got a cat and Hannahwent to the county shelter and
adopted a dog and he's verysweet, very chill, and his name
is Scooby Scooby-oo, becausehe's sort of looks like Scooby.
(34:30):
Mainly he's the same color asScooby, and not so much in the
face but in his body he lookslike Scooby.
And when we knew that she wasgonna, that she was gonna make a
dog a part of her life, myhusband was very much like I
need everyone to understand thatthe dog cannot come to the
(34:50):
house.
My gosh, we are not going totake care of the dog.
This dog is not going to be ourresponsibility in any way.
This is a hundred percent onher.
And I was like okay, whatever.
And he communicated that to hervery clearly and I was like
that's really between them.
And then it got to beThanksgiving week and we wanted
(35:12):
her to be with us all day onThanksgiving and she was like
well, I am taking care of Scoobyand so I'll need to bring him
no-transcript.
Suddenly her dad was like okay,no problem.
And Scooby was at the houseThanksgiving day and all day
Black Friday because she and Iand other folks in the family
went shopping and then all daySaturday, because she also had
(35:36):
plans all day that day.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:37):
Did your husband babysit when you were he
dog sat, he dog sat, he dog sat.
What did Scooby do?
Beth Demme (35:42):
during the day.
He well, he's like very chill,like he'll walk around some and
then he'll sit down, and youknow, he's just got that kind of
dog, yeah, so he just likechilled with your husband.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:53):
Yeah, he just chilled, it was really easy
.
Did he hang out in the gr-?
Was your husband working oncars or anything?
No, he was watching football.
Beth Demme (36:00):
Oh okay, yeah, yeah.
So they sat and watchedfootball together basically.
But what was really funny iswhen I I was kind of telling
some people at church about it,I was like I can't believe it.
But Steve was like yeah, he cancome over on Thanksgiving.
And they were like you didn'tknow he was gonna say that and I
was like no, I mean he's beenpretty adamant, consistently
adamant, about this and theywere like we totally knew he was
(36:20):
gonna change his mind.
We totally knew that he would dowhatever Hannah wanted him to
do and I was like, oh, that's agood point.
I should have looked at it fromthat angle.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:28):
But he didn't even say like, bring his
crate, keep him crated, do yousay?
Beth Demme (36:31):
anything like that.
No, he did ask her to getsomething in case Scooby needed
to be in the yard like a longlike, like a long dog run kind
of thing, yeah, a tether yeah,but it ended up we didn't even
use that Like she put it.
She went and she, you know, putit in the ground on Thursday
morning and everything, but hestayed in the house the whole
time.
He did not stay with usovernight, but he was there all
(36:53):
day for three days in a row.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:56):
So when Hannah goes out of town, you'll
definitely be keeping himovernight, right, that's what it
sounds like I don't know.
Beth Demme (37:01):
Maybe if we could crate him, maybe.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:03):
Well, doesn't she crate him?
Beth Demme (37:05):
No.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:05):
During the day, not anymore.
Beth Demme (37:07):
Not anymore.
Oh, okay yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:09):
So you could also gait him in an area,
like I do with Tosh at nightyeah that's true, and I mean
she's super chill with that.
She actually likes that comfortof having that like space, but
it's not like a super smallcrate or anything, so you could
gait her in like an area of yourroom or something.
Maybe we could, although shehasn't asked you to keep him
(37:30):
overnight but it sounds likeit's gonna happen.
It's gonna happen.
You guys are gonna have yourown.
My mom was never a dog person,my parents aren't and my mom,
like when I told her I wanted toget Greyhound, she was like,
okay, that's your house you know, and she absolutely loves my
Greyhounds.
When I had, you know, I hadMack and Tosh and and she just
(37:51):
like loved just playing withthem and everything.
And Mack passed away, you know,almost a year ago, and my mom's
always like, when are yougetting?
Beth Demme (37:58):
a second.
You know she's, she's ready forme to have more dogs and, yeah,
I could, she.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:05):
I could see her possibly having a dog
one day.
Although she likes me doing allthe stuff and she's good to
play with them, right, she doesenjoy that aspect.
Beth Demme (38:13):
Yes, I still do not want a dog, but I'm happy to
hang out with Hannah's dog.
And I don't mind helping outmore because I care about Hannah
than because I care about thedog, if that makes sense, like I
care about the dog because itis important to Hannah.
Yes, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:28):
I think my mom cares about me but loves
my dogs.
I think you can't not like whenyou, just when they like cuddle
with you, it's like okay, well,here's my bank account
information.
Get what you need.
Beth Demme (38:43):
I did intentionally go and buy treats because I was
like and I will be buyingScooby's love with treats.
Scooby's love, that's what Idid.
Yeah, so well, actually, hannahactually brought some over and
she labeled him that Scooby'slove, yes, but then I went and
got him some better ones, oh,Full moon.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:57):
That brand makes really good like
natural dog treats.
It's like just chicken and theyhave my target.
Like you could eat it.
It's human grade.
Beth Demme (39:05):
They call it human grade, but no, I have not eaten
that much.
Yeah, I'm not going to try that.
I'm not an adventurous eateranyway, so not going to eat a
dog treat.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:16):
As we now say, adventurous eaters mean
you'll eat dog treats.
Well, you know, to be fair, mygirlfriend works at a vet's
office and she says they havetried a lot of dog treats there
and she's an adventurous eater.
So maybe you're rightAdventurous eaters mean you'll
also eat dog treats.
Beth Demme (39:32):
Yeah, I just have standards.
Even if it's human grade, itmight not be Beth grade.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:41):
I love it .
At the Niveach episode we endwith questions for reflection.
These are questions based ontoday's show that Beth will read
and leave a little pausebetween for you to answer to
yourself, or you can find a PDFon our website.
Beth Demme (39:56):
Number one is there music that you go to when you're
dealing with hard realities inyour life?
Number two are there times whenyou feel like you're putting on
a happy human show?
Number three have you ever hada flashback?
Describe what it felt like andwhat it was about?
Number four can you relate tothe idea that having a name for
(40:18):
something, a diagnosis, makes iteasier to deal with?
And number five on a scale ofone to 10, how much do you trust
the medical profession?
How does that impact how oftenyou see a doctor?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:32):
This has been the Discovering Our Scarves
podcast.
Thank you for joining us.
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
Where we share personal experiences so we
can learn from each other.
I'm Steph and I'm Beth.
I've been in recovery for 17years and am the author of
Discovering my Scars, my memoirabout what's done in the
darkness eventually comes tolight.
I'm a lawyer, a turn pastor,who's all about self-awareness
and emotional health, because Iknow what it's like to have
neither of those things, bethand I have been friends for
years, have gone through arecovery program together, and
(00:27):
when I wanted to start a podcast, she was the only name that
came to mind as co-host.
Beth Demme (00:30):
I didn't hesitate to say yes, because I've learned a
lot from sharing personalexperiences with Steph over the
years.
We value honest conversationsand we hope you do too.
On today's show, we're going tohave an honest conversation
titled Discovering my ScarsChapter 9.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:44):
Then we'll share a slice of life, and
the show will close withquestions for reflection.
We'll invite you to reflect onthe conversation in your own
life.
Beth Demme (00:51):
Chapter 9.
Chapter 9 of your memoirDiscovering my Scars, the
inspiration for our podcast,discovering Our Scars, yes, yeah
.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:00):
We're going to continue right along,
so we're going to listen to theaudio of the book and then we'll
pause between to kind of do adeeper dive.
Chapter 9, 43,829 hours.
I was 25 years old and had beenphysically free from Nicole's
place for 43,829 hours, In otherwords, five years.
(01:24):
My body was in the free world,but my brain was not.
Every day was hard.
I lived in fear of going backto Nicole's place and of what
happened to me while I was there.
I would hear the screams andalarms in my head.
I would feel cold and instantlybe transported back to my
hospital room.
I wasn't free.
One thing that helped my racingbrain music I played the song
(01:48):
set me free by casting crownsover and over.
During this time.
I even made a video depictingscenes from my childhood of me
in my dorm room right after myrelease, including my fresh
scars.
Little did I know at the timehow powerful that juxtaposition
was.
Each day I felt like the shellof the person I was during the
(02:09):
74 hours of my experience fiveyears earlier.
I couldn't keep up my I'm ahappy human show anymore.
I knew something had to happen.
I had to get away from work andlook inward.
I loved my job at Apple, but Iconsidered quitting it because I
was not sure I could get thetime off that I needed.
Do you ever feel like you'reputting on a happy human?
Beth Demme (02:30):
show.
Yeah, sometimes I do.
I mean not not for days at atime, you know, but for an event
or something.
I might be like you know, I'mgonna, I'm gonna kind of what do
I say?
Or what do we say?
Like I've heard people say likeI'm gonna park it.
I've even been in meetings likewhere it starts out that way
what do you need to park to befully present here?
I have never heard that wordbefore Park.
(02:52):
Is that a new thing?
I don't know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:55):
It's like wait, what do you need In past
or meeting?
Oh okay, what do?
Beth Demme (02:58):
you need to park in order, yeah.
So what are you gonna park sothat you can be fully present
for this meeting?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:04):
Something you told me a while back that
I'm good at.
Beth Demme (03:07):
What's that word?
So compartmentalize, yes, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:09):
You've said that to me before that I'm
good at that.
Beth Demme (03:12):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:13):
Like putting things like okay, you'll
deal with this now, then you'regonna deal with this.
Is that like the same thing asparking something?
Yes, that's like the new coolpastor word, so yeah.
So what are we?
Beth Demme (03:23):
gonna park over here .
What do you need to park?
I need to park my to-do list.
I need to park my you know,this person who I'm worried
about because they're in thehospital or whatever.
I need to park this so that Ican really be here.
So that's kind of maybe the thethe short term idea of I'm
gonna put on a happy human showbecause it's saying there are
(03:43):
things that are distracting meor dragging me down, but I I'm
gonna intentionally set themaside for right now.
But it sounds like in your book, like this is not just a
temporary thing, like this isday after day.
You have something that ispulling you back in time and and
you're having to Now that Ihave an opportunity to do that,
I have a package called thetechnical who fake it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:04):
Well and I think that's interesting the
word like what are you going topark?
Because you don't.
You know, with a car you don'tjust keep it parked, you have to
keep it moving.
And so you're talking abouttemporarily parking, but then
when you get, when you're done,then you're going to move it and
work on it.
And so for me, this wasn'tworking on it, it was just this
was the show I was putting onand, um, not actually dealing
(04:28):
with the stuff that needed to bedealt with.
Yeah, one day I got the courageto talk to our new store leader,
marco.
He and I had a good workingrelationship.
He respected me, my team and myleadership.
When the meeting began, I hadno idea what I was going to say.
All I had was mustard seedfaith.
(04:49):
I told Marco I loved my job andwanted to keep it, but I needed
some time to focus on me and mymental health.
I told him I would like to takea month off and go back to
Tallahassee to have some timewith my doctor.
When I finished sharing which Idid calmly and concisely he
looked at my face with kindnessand compassion in his.
He told me I could go, I shouldgo.
(05:10):
He didn't want to lose me as anemployee.
He fully supported me takingtime off for myself.
He said he would let me putvacation and sick time together
so I could go get paid with myjob waiting for me.
When I got back.
This was a mustard seed moment.
It was a moment that didn'tseem real, but it was real
because it had been God's planfor me all along.
Beth Demme (05:31):
Okay, I wanted to pause there because you say in
the book he told me I could go,I should go, and we've had a lot
of conversations about how noone can shoot on us.
But this was a good should.
That was a good should.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:48):
Yeah, I knew you would call that out.
Yeah, I even texted should tomy mom the other day and she was
like I'm not going to shoot onyou and put should in all caps.
I was like what do you think Ishould do or something?
She's like I will not shoot onyou.
I love that it's become such aningrained thing that we like
(06:08):
yeah If we hear should, oh no,no, no, no.
Beth Demme (06:11):
I.
You would be surprised howoften I use that.
Yeah, yeah, like that's myadvice to people oh, don't let
anyone shoot on you, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:17):
And it's true, because it's something
that I think societally like, wejust like we do things because
we should do them.
It's like wait, step back, doyou want to?
Yeah, is this something youwant to do?
Like, and don't let somebodytell you what you have to do or
need to do.
What do you want to do?
Is this important to you?
And don't just do it becauseyou should.
Beth Demme (06:39):
But this is an example of a good should.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:41):
Yes, it was.
Yeah, I like that.
When the time came, I packedand drove to Tallahassee in my
green Honda CR-V.
During the drive, I beganprocessing.
It felt like life stopped.
I was taking a break from thepath of success.
We are told to travel frombirth.
Get a job, work, get a mate,get a house, get a kid.
(07:04):
I pushed on the breaks.
No one ever added.
Work on yourself.
Learn to be, take time to lookinward and make sure you are
mentally well, happy and theperson God made you to be.
Beth Demme (07:17):
Okay, I want to stop you again.
We're never going to getthrough this job, right, that's
right.
Um, I wonder if this haschanged, um, if this is changing
generationally, and maybe ifCOVID pushed us to change this
way of thinking a little bit,the idea that you have to just
(07:38):
go, go, go, go go.
You have to set a goal and andit has to be like a straight
line from where you are to thatgoal, and pausing to work on
yourself is not okay, because Ifeel like I feel like people are
better at working on themselves.
Now I'm really nervous to saythis.
So, gen Z and maybe Gen Alpha,which I think is the one after Z
(08:01):
, anyway, they, they seem to beall about working on themselves.
Like, I have a really wonderfulalmost 20 year old who works
for me and she has no problemtexting me and saying I've had a
really hard few days and I needtime for my mental health and
we have a flexible schedule, soit's all.
(08:22):
It's easy for me to always say,okay, no problem, come in the
next day or, like you know, dothis at home or whatever.
Um, but she just she wouldn'thesitate to say that, and I
don't know if it's because I'm apastor and she works in a
church, or if it's because thatgeneration is better at it, or
if maybe COVID moved the needleon it in some way.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:41):
Why are you so nervous to say it?
Beth Demme (08:42):
Well, I don't want it to sound like I'm being
critical of her, because I'mreally not.
She always gets her work done.
She's an excellent you knowemployee, um great young woman
Like.
I'm super happy that she and Iget to work together, so I don't
want it to sound like I'm beingdismissive of her needs.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (08:59):
But that's interesting.
Why do you think that that ismaking her seem like like less
than, or that like?
Beth Demme (09:06):
why do you think that it's not?
That is that I don't want it toseem like I think she's less
than because she's doing it, butsee, when you said the story, I
didn't think anything of.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:17):
I didn't think that at all.
But you think, by sharing thestory, that it makes you sound
like she's less than.
Beth Demme (09:23):
Yeah, like I don't want it to seem like I'm not
supportive of the idea of hertaking time for her mental
health, because I'm all about it, my point really was just that
she's she wouldn't hesitate tosay I'm going to take time to
work on my mental health.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:36):
When you say that to me I hear great job
like knowing yourself, knowingyour boundaries, knowing what
you need to be the rightemployee for at your job.
That's what I heard.
Yes, but when you said it, youthink that I'm hearing that she
is not a hundred percentdedicated to the job.
Beth Demme (09:56):
Well, I mean, even in the book, like you were, like
I don't know how I'm going tohandle this with my job telling
them that I need to take timeoff and that you, you were
taking a break from the path ofsuccess you know.
So that's my question is do youthink that this is different
now?
If you were in this situationnow, do you think it would be
different?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:15):
I do think that the younger
generation, I do think likemillennials, like I think we,
you know, break down walls tosay, like this is important,
like when I was, like in, youknow, traditional nine to five,
like mental health was not areason for being out of work,
like Apple, now they, you cantake mental health days.
Beth Demme (10:38):
Yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:39):
Like and we were all doing it before, but
we felt bad about it when wewere calling it a sick day.
It's like, well, I'm not sick,but I am, but like and you can
just call out for mental healthday and I think that is great,
but we, I think millennials,we're at that cusper.
It wasn't understood and we hadto like try to make those
changes and I think the youngergeneration is benefiting from us
(11:02):
.
Like saying this isn't okay,working a thousand hours a week
is not okay, like I need a break.
I don't know a lot of youngerpeople.
I do know my girlfriend worksat a vet office and they have
like younger people that workthere like in their twenties and
yeah, she's told me stories ofwhere the younger people are
like I just need a mental healthday, which can be annoying
(11:25):
because you need like employees.
But it's also that balance oflike it is a balance.
I think.
I think it can be overdone, Ithink it can be done perfect.
I also, at the end of the day,it's not my place to to judge
someone's journey and what needsto happen.
If I worked in a night,traditional nine to five today,
(11:49):
maybe I would have a differentopinion on that and like setting
boundaries in a workplace ofwhat that looks like.
But no, I think that's superimportant that mental health is
brought up in a very normal way,just like being sick with you
know flu or something I thinkyou know needing a mental health
break should be discussed inthe same manner.
Beth Demme (12:10):
Yeah, see, when I was, when I was working like as
a lawyer, when I was workingfull time, in that way you
didn't take time off Like noteven for the flu, right, like
you came in, you made everybodyelse sick because any taking any
kind of like unplanned time offwas completely unacceptable.
You had to plan your vacationin advance.
(12:31):
Everybody had to know, and thatreally needed to be the focus
of your life and what your lifewas organized around, instead of
it being that work was just apart of your life.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:41):
Yeah, and and that was similar when I
worked at Apple was like youknow, you get this and this, but
this is when you're required tobe here, and so, and it was.
I do think it was.
I think millennials are thattransitional kind of generation
in that sense of, like you hadthat strict.
The generation after us has,like you know, way less strict
(13:04):
or more open, and so we werekind of that transition where we
were like dealing with bothsides of that.
A few days into my time away, Igot ready for my session with
Dr Jill.
As I took a shower that morning, I thought about how strange it
seemed I was going through allthis effort to take time for
myself and yet I didn't evenknow what was wrong with me.
(13:26):
But I guess that was the pointto try to figure it out with Dr
Jill.
I wanted to tell her how I feltdepressed all the time, how I
didn't trust people and how Ihad flashbacks to the hospital
at random moments.
Then it hit me Everything wasrelated to the 74 hours.
Everything I had been feelingthese last five years could be
(13:47):
traced back to those moments.
It's as if I never leftNicole's place and the system
still had control over me.
The memories, feelings andoverwhelming emotions had a hold
on me and brought me back toNicole's place every day, as I
stood in the shower with warmwater pouring over my head.
I had another flashback.
I was back in the ice-coldshower.
(14:09):
I had to take in at Nicole'splace the first night with my
arm wrapped in plastic toprotect the stitches.
There were no hot and coldhandles in the shower.
As I walked toward the showerhead, ice-cold water suddenly
blasts down on me.
It was motion activated.
The water didn't begin to getwarm until I was done with my
shower.
The feeling of complete sadness, fear and longing to be home
(14:33):
filled me.
Then, just a few hours before Iwas to see Dr Jill, it popped
into my brain Is thispost-traumatic stress disorder?
Is that what's wrong?
I knew PTSD was large in themilitary community.
I knew it had to do with traumaand flashbacks and that there
was a treatment plan.
I pushed that thought in theback of my mind.
(14:54):
Then I had breakfast and wentto see my psychologist.
Dr Jill had moved into her newoffice building since my first
sessions with her.
She had a small, invitingwaiting room with soothing spa
music playing.
She called me back and I sat ona large couch with her across
from me in an armchair.
I told her everything that wascircling in my brain.
(15:14):
In the first 20 minutes shediagnosed me with post-traumatic
stress disorder.
My PTSD had resulted from the74 hours.
When she said the words, a hugeweight lifted off of me.
I had a name for what I hadbeen suffering from and it
wasn't all in my head.
It was very real.
It was debilitating, but wecould treat it.
Beth Demme (15:36):
What a relief, right To know what it is it's like.
Oh, there's a name for this andnow I can, with help, I can
tackle it, rather than it justbeing everything is bad and I
have to put on a happy humanface and I'm just not.
Something is just not right.
Something about having a namereally helps, doesn't it?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (15:57):
Yeah, I mean, I definitely remember
feeling the relief of that andjust that, because obviously I
kind of like thought that justthat morning.
But also, as we were readingthis, it struck me I think it
just now struck me I was takinga shower in the morning.
I never shower in the morning,I always shower at night.
So this is so strange to me.
(16:19):
I have no idea why I wasshowering in the morning, yeah,
like what.
And then like I, because Iwouldn't have had that like
flashback, mm-hmm, it's just solike wow, cause anyone that
knows me knows like I nevershower in the morning unless I
don't even know why.
Like I have no idea why.
(16:40):
Yeah, that is so strange to me,but I guess it was like what
needed to happen.
It was just like you know itall it all is how it's supposed
to happen.
Yeah, I definitely just I feltlike a relief and like oh, this
is something I've heard of, wecan treat it.
Beth Demme (16:57):
Right, she, like Dr Jill, knows what to do with PTSD
.
Okay, good, yeah, yeah, allright.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (17:04):
Now I had my what.
Knowing what the problem was, Ineeded my how.
How do I treat this?
Dr Jill told me there was not amagic pill, although it could
get back on depression meds, butshe didn't think that would
help.
Based on my history, the wayyou treat PTSD is to talk about
the traumatic events.
Dr Jill told me what I thought.
(17:24):
Talk, talk about the thingsthat tear me up inside and feel
like knives jabbing through myheart if I acknowledge them.
So simple, yet so terrifying.
All right, so now I'm not sohappy.
I thought we had some magicpills and stuff.
Right, right, so now you'resaying all you do is talk, right
.
So I went from like yay, wehave an answer to whoa.
Beth Demme (17:48):
No, no, no, that does not seem like the pill I
wanted.
I don't want to bask in thesememories.
They're terrible memories.
They make me uncomfortable.
I don't want to live in thatmoment again and again, but your
body, for five years, had beenwaiting for you to really deal
with it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:04):
Yeah, and to release it.
And that's all you do is yousay it to release it.
And that was no.
No, I was not excited about it.
Yeah, I went to my magic pilland the PTSD goes away.
So what you can do, well,actually there's not a lot of
like the flu.
(18:24):
You can't really take a magicpill.
Beth Demme (18:26):
There's not really magic pills for many things.
Well, I think people would say,like there's a pill for high
blood pressure, there's medicinefor diabetes, there's, you know
, like some of those things youcan manage with medication.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:39):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (18:41):
But this and it's, like you say, so simple yet so
terrifying.
Like it doesn't sound like itwould be hard to just talk about
something, but sometimes thereare things that are really hard
to talk about.
Talk about the worst moment ofyour life and go Right, right,
but it works, it does.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:00):
Oh, it is yeah, cause I'm on the other
side of this.
Yeah, it totally works.
But even now, like reading it,I'm like, yeah, that's not fun,
I want to cookie after at least.
Yeah, truly though now I thinkabout it Like I could have like
gotten something special aftereach of the sessions to like,
but I didn't.
I just you didn't need it.
Beth Demme (19:20):
Yeah, you just powered through.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:22):
Powered through Dr Jill, helped me
understand that what happened tome was not right and the
hospital is at fault for my PTSDbecause of its lack of proper
treatment.
During the 74 hours.
Everyone seemed so disgusted bymy wound.
I just couldn't understand whythis was all they focused on
(19:44):
until I started meeting with DrJill again.
She told me they thought I wastrying to kill myself a failed
suicide attempt.
It may seem obvious to youreading this now, but I honestly
had no idea.
This is what everyone wasthinking.
For me, self-injury isunrelated to suicide, but after
Dr Jill made this connection forme, I started to see why
(20:06):
everyone had concluded this.
Beth Demme (20:08):
I just want to affirm that yes, it is obvious
to everyone who's reading this.
Of course, they thought thatyou were trying to take your own
life.
That's why they made commentsabout how deep you had cut and
the whole hamburger comment andall that and why they were so I
mean, still, they did not dowhat they needed to do.
Nothing about it was handledright.
(20:29):
But I think even the policeofficer thought that.
So I just wanted to say yes.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:38):
Dr Jill reminded me that I'm not a
cutter.
I should have never been sentto CRC, she said, because I was
not trying to kill myself orharm others.
I was engaging in non-suicidalself-injury NSSI the act of
feeling so much and not havingphysical pain to show for it.
My coping was to make theinternal pain real.
(20:59):
According to the AmericanPsychiatric Association's DSM-5,
the diagnostic feature of NSSIis an individual repeatedly
inflicting shallow yet painfulinjuries to the surface of his
or her body.
Most commonly, the purpose isto reduce negative emotions such
as tension, anxiety andself-reproach, and or to resolve
(21:21):
an interpersonal difficulty.
The injury is most oftenafflicted with a knife, needle,
razor or other sharp objects.
Common areas for injury includethe frontal area of the thigh
and the dorsal side of theforearm.
A single session of injurymight involve a series of
superficial parallel cuts,separated by one or two
(21:41):
centimeters, on a visible oraccessible location.
When I read into NSSI, Irealized I was a classic
textbook case.
It's like they wrote thediagnostic all about me.
It was comforting to have anofficial name for my coping.
Beth Demme (21:57):
Again, it's comforting to have a name for it
.
Yeah, I would imagine that youfeel less strange, maybe like oh
, I'm not the only one and thisisn't something that Dr Jill's
never seen before Like this issomething that is known and
understood.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:14):
The odd thing, though, is it was a
fairly new realization withinthe diagnostic for a
psychologist.
Like their DSM-5, like there'sfive versions of that, I mean
there might be a six now.
Every time there's a newpublished one, they have new
diagnostics and things like thatinside of it, and so this was
(22:36):
new for the fifth version, so Iwas kind of dealing with this
while it was becoming known.
Also, and even though it isknown in the it's official
diagnostic, it's still not likewhen I tell people about it
they've never heard of it, likemedical professionals, like they
are like what, and so I meanit's in the name, not just a
(22:59):
thing of injury.
it kind of self-explanatory, butit still is not like something
that is like regularly known andused in common language because
it's there, but it's notsomething that has, like, hit
social media or anything in thatsense that I believe I don't
like super follow that.
Beth Demme (23:19):
but but also especially five years before
this.
It definitely wasn't part of.
It was not understood.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:28):
Yeah.
Beth Demme (23:30):
You also say that Dr Jill reminded you that you're
not a cutter, so can you tell mewhat that means?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (23:37):
Well, cutter is the term kind of she
used for someone that wassuicidal, like cutting
themselves to, you know, forpossible, like suicidal purposes
, and it's very much adistinguishing factor.
So if someone is trying to, youknow, die by suicide, they cut
(23:58):
in a way that would like cut thevein.
Yes, and mine, as they say inthe description, is like the
parallel cuts lower down, likewhere I cut or where I, you know
, self-injured was not a waythat could result in.
If it resulted in suicide insome capacity, it would have
(24:19):
been an accident Like itwouldn't have been, but not I
don't even think that could havehappened with the way it was
done.
Yeah, I don't know if that'sstill like the proper
terminology, but she would usethe word cutter as someone that
was suicidal.
Suicidal and so not suicidalself-injury is the opposite.
But people still use thoseterms like actually, sometimes
(24:40):
my dad will call me a cutter andI'm like, okay, like oh, I
heard about someone else, it's acutter like you, or something
like that.
I'm like, good job,psychologist.
I correct him.
I'm like, well, was it notsuicidal self-injury?
Like how was the?
What kind of cuts, were they?
But yeah, so.
So there are people that stillwill use the terms
(25:01):
interchangeably, and then I'llcorrect them.
People are like oh, yeah, yeah,that's what I mean.
Beth Demme (25:04):
Yeah, Okay great.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (25:09):
Over the next few weeks I followed my
PTSD treatment plan.
I talked, I wrote, I scribbledreal and raw feelings and burned
them, as Dr Jill instructed meto do.
I talked to my parents and myfriends.
I let it all out.
Getting the hellish events outof me was freeing.
So was crying.
Dr Jill liked to prescribe agood cry.
(25:31):
During our sessions over themonth, dr Jill would remind me
with a reassuring smile that youare not crazy.
The police don't know how tohandle these kinds of situations
, so they bring all patientslike this to the same place.
The place you are in soundslike a place here in town and
it's not a hospital you shouldever be in.
They drug people and put themback in the streets.
(25:52):
Every session was hard.
They were draining, emotionallyand physically exhausting.
After going through it, I knewI could have never done it.
While still working at AppleMustered Seed, faith helped me
get to this place of healing.
As my time in Tallahassee wascoming to an end, my mom
recommended a new primary caredoctor for me.
A few years earlier I hadstopped taking Zoloft because,
(26:15):
having been on it for years, Ibegan to feel it controlling my
emotions and making meunrealistically happy.
It was a weird and scarysensation.
I wanted to go back on birthcontrol as my depression got
worse around my cycle, but I hadbeen too afraid to see a doctor
to prescribe it.
Dr K was my mom's doctor andwent to our hometown church.
(26:36):
I was so nervous and scared tosee her.
I told Dr K about my past andwhat I wanted to do
medication-wise.
She listened and her tone andbody language weren't judgmental
.
All the emotions hit me whiletelling my story and I started
to cry.
I cried because she heard me,she saw me and she didn't judge
(26:56):
my scars.
She gave me the prescriptionfor birth control and restored
my trust in medicalprofessionals.
She has been my primary caredoctor ever since.
I do want to say she's still mydoctor today, and so I've known
her since this, which was yearsand years ago, and recently
(27:19):
we've talked about the podcast.
But I realized that I was gayand so I, when my last set, my
last doctor's appointment, Itold her and I was like not sure
how she would respond becausewell, first I thought it's going
to be cool.
I mean, she's a doctor, likethat's like she's professional,
that's normal.
But also I knew her from mychurch and I know a lot of
(27:42):
church people that arejudgmental about things that are
outside of their worldview andso I really wasn't sure and when
I told her it was just like Ihad told her.
I was straight and it was verycool and chill and actually
every single person that I hadcared to tell in my life has
been cool and chill about it.
(28:02):
But yeah, so just like she waswith this same thing, just like
Great cool, I made greatprogress that month and the
months after I was able to seedoctors again and take care of
my health.
I also started to getacupuncture for chronic neck and
shoulder pain and unexplainablepain I've had since childhood.
(28:25):
I had dozens of sessions withmy acupuncturist and I'd become
really comfortable with theprocess.
But one day something wentwrong.
As I lay there, she put theneedles in like normal, but this
time she put a few in my leftarm, not near my scars, just on
the same arm.
As she inserted them, I had aflashback to the needle they
(28:46):
used to numb my arm right beforethey put the stitches in at the
ER.
She finished putting in theacupuncture needles and left the
room for 45 minutes, as shenormally did.
But this time I felt paralyzed.
I knew I could hit theemergency button and she would
come back in and take theneedles out, but I couldn't move
.
I couldn't think.
The acupuncture needles feltlike knives.
(29:08):
They burned and froze me.
For the next 45 minutes I wentback five years in time.
I was back in that tinyemergency room getting stitches.
I felt the pain.
I smelled the medical scent ofthe room.
I heard the nurse tell me tosit while the doctor worked.
I tasted my salty tears becausethe pain was so great.
I felt the pain, but I alsofelt the numbness and the
(29:31):
sensation of my arm beingstitched with needle and thread.
I felt the pull and tug.
I had the same sick feeling inthe pit of my stomach.
Finally, my acupuncturist cameback into the room and removed
the needles.
Like normal.
I kept myself together longenough to pay and get to my car.
Then I broke down.
I ugly cried all the way home.
(29:51):
I had never had a flashbackthat bad, that real.
I was afraid to go back,worried it would happen again.
Having worked through my PTSDdoes not mean it's gone for my
life.
Dr Jill told me it would staywith me and I might still have
flashbacks, but by working on itthe memories would not haunt me
and the flashbacks would notcompletely shut down my world.
(30:12):
I would recognize the feelingsand work through them.
Dr Jill was right.
The next week I did go back andI summoned up the courage to
tell my acupuncturist whathappened.
I told her about the 74 hours.
She was so understanding andkind to me.
She never put needles in myleft arm again and I never
experienced a flashback in anacupuncture session again.
(30:35):
That flashback sounds reallyhorrible.
It was yeah, I can still fullyremember that reading through
that.
It was.
Yeah, I can feel what that feltlike in laying there with that.
But yeah, that's what flashbacksare like.
I mean, honestly, I haven't hada flashback in a while.
(30:57):
Like I can't think of the lastone I had and it's been like I
still deal with NSSI thoughts attimes, like when things are
just like, when things areseeming like falling apart.
So probably, like maybe sixmonths ago, I had the thought
(31:18):
pop in my head and talk to Jillabout it and I didn't engage in
it, but I did have the thoughtsand she always reminds me like
you're gonna have the thoughts.
It's very much doled over timeLike it's not, as it's not
something I stress about, it'snot something I like get overly
concerned about.
But if I am having multiplethings that kind of tear me down
(31:39):
, I can really get to that placeand I just have put so much
work into it that I justremember to keep putting that
work into it and just go throughmy healthy tools to get through
them.
But yeah, I haven't really hada scar kind of pain in a really
(32:02):
long time.
Beth Demme (32:04):
I wonder if there was something about this session
with the acupuncturist thatobviously I mean it sounds like
it was really really hard, but Iwonder if there was some sense
in which it was a release ofsome of that, so that it
wouldn't continue to wait foryou to feel it and address it.
You know, and because you wereengaging in so much health care
(32:25):
and so much healthy work, youknow, with the acupuncture and
with your psychologist and withthe journaling and with you know
that like that was the momentat which your body could say,
okay, now I release this.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:36):
Yeah, that's an interesting look at it
.
Yeah, I mean in the sense oflike there was like moments that
there was just always gonna bethings down the timeline that
needed to be released in theproper way and you know, maybe
this was the way that this wasalways needing to be released.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Beth Demme (32:57):
Yeah well, I've said it before and I'm sure I will
say it again, but I think thatit's so brave of you to relive
this by putting it down on paperand by writing the book and by
now revisiting it.
I think that that takes courageand I think that people can,
even if you know they'll havetheir own story.
(33:17):
But I think it is relatable andI think it's good that you've
been courageous to share this.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:23):
Thank you , pastor Beth.
So, beth, we did an episodekind of about holiday season and
we just that's where we are.
Beth Demme (33:35):
we're in the holiday season.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:37):
We're in it and we just kind of got
through Thanksgiving and allthat.
So was there anything differentthat happened this year for
your Thanksgiving?
Beth Demme (33:46):
Yeah, any new members, we had a dog at
Thanksgiving which is reallyunusual.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:50):
Wait, your house.
Beth Demme (33:51):
At my house oh.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:53):
That's big.
We also had like 20 humans atthe house.
Oh and humans.
Beth Demme (33:57):
Yeah, but my daughter Hannah, who's been a
guest on the podcast.
She got a dog a few months agoand yes, that's big.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:06):
You guys are not dog people.
Beth Demme (34:07):
We're not dog people .
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:07):
You and your husband.
Beth Demme (34:08):
And both of my kids said as soon as I move out, I'm
getting a pet.
Yes, and they did Rebels.
I love it.
They did so.
My son got a cat and Hannahwent to the county shelter and
adopted a dog and he's verysweet, very chill, and his name
is Scooby Scooby-oo, becausehe's sort of looks like Scooby.
(34:30):
Mainly he's the same color asScooby, and not so much in the
face but in his body he lookslike Scooby.
And when we knew that she wasgonna, that she was gonna make a
dog a part of her life, myhusband was very much like I
need everyone to understand thatthe dog cannot come to the
(34:50):
house.
My gosh, we are not going totake care of the dog.
This dog is not going to be ourresponsibility in any way.
This is a hundred percent onher.
And I was like okay, whatever.
And he communicated that to hervery clearly and I was like
that's really between them.
And then it got to beThanksgiving week and we wanted
(35:12):
her to be with us all day onThanksgiving and she was like
well, I am taking care of Scoobyand so I'll need to bring him
no-transcript.
Suddenly her dad was like okay,no problem.
And Scooby was at the houseThanksgiving day and all day
Black Friday because she and Iand other folks in the family
went shopping and then all daySaturday, because she also had
(35:36):
plans all day that day.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:37):
Did your husband babysit when you were he
dog sat, he dog sat, he dog sat.
What did Scooby do?
Beth Demme (35:42):
during the day.
He well, he's like very chill,like he'll walk around some and
then he'll sit down, and youknow, he's just got that kind of
dog, yeah, so he just likechilled with your husband.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (35:53):
Yeah, he just chilled, it was really easy
.
Did he hang out in the gr-?
Was your husband working oncars or anything?
No, he was watching football.
Beth Demme (36:00):
Oh okay, yeah, yeah.
So they sat and watchedfootball together basically.
But what was really funny iswhen I I was kind of telling
some people at church about it,I was like I can't believe it.
But Steve was like yeah, he cancome over on Thanksgiving.
And they were like you didn'tknow he was gonna say that and I
was like no, I mean he's beenpretty adamant, consistently
adamant, about this and theywere like we totally knew he was
(36:20):
gonna change his mind.
We totally knew that he would dowhatever Hannah wanted him to
do and I was like, oh, that's agood point.
I should have looked at it fromthat angle.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:28):
But he didn't even say like, bring his
crate, keep him crated, do yousay?
Beth Demme (36:31):
anything like that.
No, he did ask her to getsomething in case Scooby needed
to be in the yard like a longlike, like a long dog run kind
of thing, yeah, a tether yeah,but it ended up we didn't even
use that Like she put it.
She went and she, you know, putit in the ground on Thursday
morning and everything, but hestayed in the house the whole
time.
He did not stay with usovernight, but he was there all
(36:53):
day for three days in a row.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (36:56):
So when Hannah goes out of town, you'll
definitely be keeping himovernight, right, that's what it
sounds like I don't know.
Beth Demme (37:01):
Maybe if we could crate him, maybe.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:03):
Well, doesn't she crate him?
Beth Demme (37:05):
No.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:05):
During the day, not anymore.
Beth Demme (37:07):
Not anymore.
Oh, okay yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (37:09):
So you could also gait him in an area,
like I do with Tosh at nightyeah that's true, and I mean
she's super chill with that.
She actually likes that comfortof having that like space, but
it's not like a super smallcrate or anything, so you could
gait her in like an area of yourroom or something.
Maybe we could, although shehasn't asked you to keep him
(37:30):
overnight but it sounds likeit's gonna happen.
It's gonna happen.
You guys are gonna have yourown.
My mom was never a dog person,my parents aren't and my mom,
like when I told her I wanted toget Greyhound, she was like,
okay, that's your house you know, and she absolutely loves my
Greyhounds.
When I had, you know, I hadMack and Tosh and and she just
(37:51):
like loved just playing withthem and everything.
And Mack passed away, you know,almost a year ago, and my mom's
always like, when are yougetting?
Beth Demme (37:58):
a second.
You know she's, she's ready forme to have more dogs and, yeah,
I could, she.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:05):
I could see her possibly having a dog
one day.
Although she likes me doing allthe stuff and she's good to
play with them, right, she doesenjoy that aspect.
Beth Demme (38:13):
Yes, I still do not want a dog, but I'm happy to
hang out with Hannah's dog.
And I don't mind helping outmore because I care about Hannah
than because I care about thedog, if that makes sense, like I
care about the dog because itis important to Hannah.
Yes, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:28):
I think my mom cares about me but loves
my dogs.
I think you can't not like whenyou, just when they like cuddle
with you, it's like okay, well,here's my bank account
information.
Get what you need.
Beth Demme (38:43):
I did intentionally go and buy treats because I was
like and I will be buyingScooby's love with treats.
Scooby's love, that's what Idid.
Yeah, so well, actually, hannahactually brought some over and
she labeled him that Scooby'slove, yes, but then I went and
got him some better ones, oh,Full moon.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (38:57):
That brand makes really good like
natural dog treats.
It's like just chicken and theyhave my target.
Like you could eat it.
It's human grade.
Beth Demme (39:05):
They call it human grade, but no, I have not eaten
that much.
Yeah, I'm not going to try that.
I'm not an adventurous eateranyway, so not going to eat a
dog treat.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:16):
As we now say, adventurous eaters mean
you'll eat dog treats.
Well, you know, to be fair, mygirlfriend works at a vet's
office and she says they havetried a lot of dog treats there
and she's an adventurous eater.
So maybe you're rightAdventurous eaters mean you'll
also eat dog treats.
Beth Demme (39:32):
Yeah, I just have standards.
Even if it's human grade, itmight not be Beth grade.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (39:41):
I love it .
At the Niveach episode we endwith questions for reflection.
These are questions based ontoday's show that Beth will read
and leave a little pausebetween for you to answer to
yourself, or you can find a PDFon our website.
Beth Demme (39:56):
Number one is there music that you go to when you're
dealing with hard realities inyour life?
Number two are there times whenyou feel like you're putting on
a happy human show?
Number three have you ever hada flashback?
Describe what it felt like andwhat it was about?
Number four can you relate tothe idea that having a name for
(40:18):
something, a diagnosis, makes iteasier to deal with?
And number five on a scale ofone to 10, how much do you trust
the medical profession?
How does that impact how oftenyou see a doctor?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (40:32):
This has been the Discovering Our Scarves
podcast.
Thank you for joining us.
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