December 21, 2023 • 34 mins
Have you ever found yourself at a crossroads, the kind where you wave off a piece of your life and step into the unknown? That's the heart of our latest episode, where Beth and Steph peel back the layers of emotion that accompany the goodbyes we face throughout life. From the annual farewells to years and birthdays, to those deeply personal ones like leaving a job, or even more profound, coping with the loss of someone close, we share our insights and stories on how each parting offers a path to growth.
Full transcript and show notes here: https://bit.ly/dospod149
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Stephanie Kostopoulos : https://www.stephaniekostopoulos.com/
Beth Demme: http://bethdemme.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Beth Demme (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
We share personal experiences so we can
learn from each other.
I'm Steph and I'm Beth.
I've been in recovery for 17years and am the author of
Discovering my Scars, my memoirabout what's done in the
darkness eventually comes tolight.
Beth Demme (00:16):
I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about
self-awareness and emotionalhealth, because I know what it's
like to have neither of thosethings.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:23):
Beth and I have been friends for years,
have gone through a recoveryprogram together, and when I
wanted to start a podcast, shewas the only name that came to
mind as co-host.
Beth Demme (00:29):
I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a
lot from sharing personalexperiences with Steph over the
years.
We value honest conversationsand we hope you do too.
On today's show we're going tohave an honest conversation
titled Time to Say Goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:43):
Then we'll share a slice of life, and
the show will close withquestions for reflection.
We'll invite you to reflect onthe conversation in your own
life.
Well, bye.
Beth Demme (00:51):
Yeah.
You were like, let's have ashow and call it Time to Say
Goodbye, and I was like are youtrying to tell me something, are
you?
Do you want to say goodbye tome, are you like?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:00):
no, never .
Get out of the podcast studio,that's in my house Actually, I
can't say never, because I thinkthat's the whole point of
today's episode is that at somepoint we will have to say
goodbye.
But I don't like to think aboutit, about saying goodbye to
people in your life.
Yeah, I don't like to thinkabout that.
Okay, well, and I guess that'swhat we're talking about today
is, as we were thinking throughthis topic, we realized there's
(01:21):
a lot of things that we do saygoodbye to in our life and have
to say goodbye to, and it's notnecessarily the obvious goodbyes
.
So that's, I think, what we'regoing to dig into.
Beth Demme (01:33):
Yeah.
So just to recap, what oftenhappens on the Discovering Our
Scars podcast is, steph says,hey, maybe we should think about
this or talk about this, andI'm like, oh, I don't want to
think about that.
And she's like, yes, let's doan episode on it then.
Well, the truth is we arenearing the end of the year, and
so there is a sense of, likethings, winding down, a natural
(01:54):
goodbye, yeah.
And so say goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:59):
But that is something that happens to
everyone at the same time, atthe same time and place every
year.
So I guess that is a good placeto start.
Is goodbyes that are you knowall the time, like even on your
birthday.
Like you know, there's two waysof looking at your birthday
(02:20):
actually it's like it's like awhole new year, exciting new
year, that you don't know what'scoming.
Or it can be sad Like oh mygosh, I'm like right, I'm not,
you know 36 anymore.
Beth Demme (02:32):
Yeah Well, I think people especially feel that way
at decades, right Like oh,goodbye 30s, hello 40s.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:38):
Do you think as you get older, you get
sadder around birthdays or happy, or like do you think there's a
different shift as you getolder with birthdays?
Beth Demme (02:49):
I really didn't like turning 30, but every birthday
since then has been pretty goodand it's not like my 30,.
My, that was a bad year and itwas just like something about
that number to me felt reallymonumental.
And the numbers after that it'skind of like, yeah, now, when I
get closer to 50, I may feeldifferently.
It's not that far away, but itis a couple years away.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:10):
Yeah, so like the decades.
Beth Demme (03:12):
Yeah, I think that there's something about the
decades.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:16):
Yeah, like birthdays don't really hold
any weight to me anymore.
I remember when I was younger,like birthdays were like, oh my
gosh, I'm turning 18, whatever.
But now it's just kind of likea day and it's more.
It's more like a reflection forme about just life in general.
So I get kind of likeintrospective more on birthdays
(03:38):
and I don't necessarily, I guess, I go through the emotions of
it.
Like there is an element that'ssad of like like, oh my gosh,
should I waste just last year,like I'm only going to be 36
once.
Did I do everything I need todo when I was 36?
And then there's like therealization, like, oh my gosh, I
am 37.
Wow, wow, do you still alwaysknow your age?
(04:00):
No, I, the other day Iliterally was thinking in my
head I'm like, oh my gosh, I'mmaybe 39 this year.
That's crazy, that's so closeto 40.
And then a second later I waslike, oh my gosh, no, I'm going
to be 38 this year.
Oh my gosh, I'm going to sayyear of my life.
So no, I absolutely don't knowmy age and it's, it's pretty
(04:21):
jarring, yeah.
Beth Demme (04:22):
So with birthdays, with like, when, the, when the
year changes, we are sayinggoodbye, but we're also
immediately saying hi tosomething new, right, hi to the
new year, hi to the new age, andso maybe those good guys are
easier because they're they'recompletely out of our control.
Like, the calendar is going todo what it's going to do, time
is going to do what it does, butalso then we have this new
thing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:42):
And we have that set set aside time for
kind of that reflection.
So I think, for me, the goodguys that are like the hardest
are the unexpected and thepeople, but there's been
definitely a handful of goodguys that have been super hard.
I think, for me, um, leaving myjobs, um, I left my job at
Apple.
Um, and that was really hardbecause I like the comfort of
(05:07):
knowing of what's going tohappen and even though with
Apple, there was things I wasfrustrated about and there was
things that, like I was like Iwant to move on, it still was
super scary to leave because itwas the unknown like what is
that going to look?
Like?
Um, and the easier thing wouldhave just been to stay.
Beth Demme (05:23):
Yeah Well, how did you know it was time to say
goodbye?
It was a feeling, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:27):
Um, you know, there was definitely times
throughout my five years ofworking there where I was like
I'm so mad I'm just going toquit.
You know there's those feelingsof, look, I'm going to quit.
And those aren't the times thatI quit, because that's not, um,
you know, when I it'sdefinitely a feeling of like,
you know there's just that likeleave, but it was, it was, um, a
rational feeling when it waslike you know, there's
(05:51):
definitely things I'm frustratedabout here, but ultimately I
feel like I've done everythingthat I needed to do here and
it's time to move on.
So it was a feeling of it'stime.
And once I realized thatfeeling, that's when I, you know
, made the next steps of okay,where, when am I going to do
next?
I'm going to tell my boss I'mgoing to, you know, quit all
(06:11):
those things.
It definitely was.
You know I was saying goodbye.
It was never going to be thesame again.
Beth Demme (06:18):
Did you have that feeling when you decided to stay
in Orlando after you finishedat UCF, like?
Did you have a sense that youwere saying goodbye to your
hometown?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:28):
And I decided to stay.
It wasn't even, um, a really aprocess, because it was like I
had been in school and I hadbeen working at Disney and Apple
and I was going to be able tomake those jobs permanent after
school.
And it just was, it just allhappened.
Just, it just happened Like itwasn't a choice I really made
(06:49):
and my last semester of schoolwas online and so I moved to an
apartment closer to you to Appleand I went full time.
So, like it just kind ofhappened.
It wasn't really like I am nowa Orlando liver, Like this is
where I live now.
It just kind of like this justis.
So I don't remember like asaying goodbye to Tallahassee.
(07:09):
I mean, I said goodbye toTallahassee when I moved to go
to UCF for school and I washappy about that.
I was like I'm not gonna be atownie at all.
No, and I still am not a towniebecause I chose to come back.
I wasn't forced to come back.
So I don't think, you know, itwas a conscious choice to move
back to Tallahassee.
(07:30):
And then I fell in love withTallahassee in an adult way.
You know it's not, it still ismy childhood place, but, like in
the same thing.
I decided to leave my job atthe church years ago.
Now I how many is?
10 years now, I don't even know.
Well, less than that, but stillit's eight years, eight years
ago.
And it was the same feelingwith Apple, where it's like
(07:52):
there's things I'm frustratedabout, there's things that I
like, there's comfort in theknown, but it's time.
And it was just that samefeeling, but it was hard because
I'm saying goodbye to all mycoworkers and everything that I
knew and it would never be thesame again.
And also, when you quit a job,you know that says something,
that the finality of it.
Like you know I think there'sother ways that you could leave
(08:16):
a job, in other things thatcould bring you to different
places.
But like when you just say likeI'm quitting, I'm done, like I
don't know, there's justsomething like very final about
it.
Beth Demme (08:27):
No, you're right.
I think I've only ever quit onejob, like when I left the law
firm that I worked for to stayhome with my kids.
It was I'm gonna do this for aseason and I'll be back.
Oh, so you didn't even reallyquit.
I never quit.
And I mean, have you yet?
Or generously, kindly,wonderfully, they would check in
(08:50):
with me, like, hey, are youstill checking?
Are you ready to come back?
You know they've stoppedchecking now.
Oh, okay, but I reallyappreciated that for the first
couple of years they checked inwith me and I could have gone
back if I had been ready.
And I wasn't ready, I needed tobe home with my kids.
I needed it for them and Ineeded it for me.
(09:10):
So, yeah, I never really quit.
The only job I quit was areally bad job.
Yeah, that was like bye yeahthat I worked, I think, for one
or two days and I was like thisis a really terrible place and I
don't wanna work here anymore.
And the manager said well, canyou finish out your schedule?
And I said no, this is a reallyterrible place, I don't wanna
work here anymore.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:30):
I was really honest.
Wow, yeah, were you in highschool?
Beth Demme (09:34):
No, I was in college .
Oh, okay, yeah, I was incollege.
Was it Discovery Zone?
No, how did you work atDiscovery Zone?
Close, the very Right.
I think they were still open,though when I left I graduated.
I graduated from college, andso then it was like this is a
natural ending point.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:51):
Your two examples are kind of what I'm
talking about, where, like whenI quit, like that's a, like that
says something, but you had anatural oh I'm done with college
, so it made sense to leave thatjob, and so no one really, you
know, questioned that, and thenyou didn't actually quit your
law job.
I didn't, you didn't have thatfinality and so and that's
(10:12):
enough.
So those are two examples ofways where you're not making
that like full commitment ofgoodbye.
You're still holding onto athread, and I wonder how many
people are in like my situationversus your situation where,
like I, like when I'm done withsomething, I'm done with it.
I don't want to leave the loosestrings, it's hard, but I want
to like this is done and we allknow it's done, and for you it's
(10:34):
like I'm going to hold on towhatever.
Beth Demme (10:36):
I can.
I want to keep my options open,yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:38):
Yeah, or I want it to just naturally
happen where there's, whichtotally makes sense.
You're that way now, like youare the yes woman and you're
going to say yes.
Beth Demme (10:47):
I say yes, I can yes and yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:49):
Like your goal in life is to say yes, yes
, and so if someone's like, well, although you didn't say yes to
go back to the law firm, butyou said yes to yeah keep
checking in.
Beth Demme (11:00):
Yeah, I was always not.
Yet Can't do it yet.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:03):
See, that was so annoying me though, like
that would so annoying me, justgive just.
If you're not coming back, justbe done with it Like I would.
That's how I am.
I prefer someone to becompletely honest with
themselves first, and then withme.
I really thought I would goback, though.
I really did, but how manyyears was it until you realized
you weren't going back, and thenthey stopped calling Like how
(11:25):
long did that?
Beth Demme (11:25):
take.
I mean, it was probably two orthree years before they stopped
calling.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:29):
That's crazy, but I stayed friends with
them, see, but I think there'san element of you that don't
want to upset people, and if youhad said I quit, so you'd never
really had to say so.
It's almost the it's the easierway out to just kind of keep
that leash there and just for myown self.
Beth Demme (11:47):
I wanted to keep that option open.
I wanted to keep.
I wanted to go back to that jobif I wanted to.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:54):
In reality, though, you could have
easily gone.
You could have easily said Iquit, I'm done, but you still
could have gone back.
If you had asked years later,you could have still said hey,
like were they keeping yourposition open.
No, I mean, Well then there'sno reason you could have easily
gone back to it without likeholding this lifeline.
Beth Demme (12:13):
A law firm's a little different, because you
basically have to earn your ownsalary.
Yeah, so it's, if they thinkthat you can generate enough
work to cover your salary,they're gonna say, yes, you
could come back.
Yeah, but yeah, I'm thinkingabout even like my high school
job.
I had it until I went away tocollege and then, when I went
away to college, I came back andI worked there in the summer,
(12:36):
so I really haven't.
I've only quit that one job.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:40):
And that's the job I had in high
school was working at the churchthat I worked at years later
and that was kind of whathappened.
There was I was in college andthen or no, I was in high school
and then I moved to UCF.
So it was more like I'm leaving.
It wasn't like I quit.
So I definitely know thatfeeling verse like I quit.
(13:03):
So I wonder how many peopleactually quit jobs.
Beth Demme (13:06):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:07):
Or leave, and also it's a kind of a
privileged place to be with thelaw firm where, like, how many
jobs are going to check in tosee if you want to come back?
Like most jobs are like you'rehere or you're not, like yeah,
it's true they were they werereally good to me.
That's a kind of a differentsituation, like I couldn't have
done that at Apple.
You know, if I wanted to, itwas either you quit, if you come
(13:29):
back, then we'll rehire you,but we're not gonna keep
checking in with you.
So I think that's a pretty rare.
Beth Demme (13:34):
They were really kind and really generous with me
.
That's true.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:37):
So definitely saying goodbye to a
job is like you know, it's a,it's a kind of a transition in
life kind of goodbye.
And then something that I havedefinitely had experience with
lately is losing a person or pet.
So I in the last few years Ilost both my grandparents and my
(13:57):
aunt and that was definitelykind of a a hard reality.
And then you know, justactually almost a year, it's
gonna be a year end of January Ilost my first dog ever, mac,
and you know it's still hardlike, especially like last month
was her gotcha day and herbirthday, and so just you know
(14:20):
the anniversaries of those dates.
I think it will obviously geteasier with time, but because it
was my first, you know.
Beth Demme (14:25):
I think it's just all of that and like your
memories from one year ago.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:29):
Yeah, yeah, and then in January last
year she was sick for a lot ofJanuary.
So I'm like gearing up, I'mlike, okay, I need to do a lot
of happy things, cause, yeah, itwas a definitely a hard reality
last year.
But I think I think losing,especially something kind of
unexpected, like with Mac.
She got sick really quickly andthen I had to like put her down
(14:52):
within like two weeks of thiskind of big pain that she was in
, and so it was unexpected.
And so I think these likeunexpected goodbyes I don't
think it's ever easy to losesomebody, but like if someone
has cancer or something that hasbeen an illness going on, like
you kind of can prepare yourself, even though you can never like
(15:13):
fully be prepared.
You still have to go through theprocess.
But with Mac, I mean, it wasjust I had never.
That was the first time I'dhave really gone through like
the full grieving process andlike really like lived in each
of those steps.
So I think those, I think forme that's probably probably the
most life changing goodbye I'veever had with Mac.
How about you?
Beth Demme (15:34):
Shortly before my 14th birthday, my oldest brother
died in an accident, so it wascompletely unexpected.
That was.
That has been formative in mylife.
But also, I think when I thinkabout saying goodbye to a person
, I think about my dad.
He passed away in February of2014.
(15:54):
So we're coming up on the 10year actually of that.
And he had been.
He had been sick, he had somemedical conditions and I knew
things were getting harder forhim, but then he went into the
hospital on a Sunday and passedaway on the Friday.
So that week everything wasreally compressed and he was
(16:18):
ready.
And I think that happenssometimes where the people who
are at the end of their life,nearing the end of their life,
they're ready maybe before theirfamily members are.
It was a time that was reallyholy and spiritual and filled
with a lot of blessings and thatin Christianity we would say
the peace that passes,understanding, like that idea.
(16:39):
So much so that we met withhospice pretty early on, like
maybe on Tuesday of that week orsomething, and there was still
an oncology consult kind of outin the paperwork and when the
oncologist came, the nursepulled me aside later and told
me the story.
But she said, the oncologistcame and I explained to him that
(17:00):
the consult wasn't neededanymore and he said well, why?
And she said well, mr Gibbonsis in multi-system organ failure
.
And the oncologist said yeah,but we could still treat the
cancer.
And she was mad.
The nurse was mad about it.
She was like why would he wannaput somebody through that?
Why would he wanna put yourfamily through that?
(17:21):
She was venting and I wastotally at peace.
My dad was at peace.
This is what he wanted.
He was awake and alert and wasable to communicate his choices
and I was fine with it.
And then, like six months later, I thought, oh, no, maybe we
should have tried more.
Maybe we shouldn't, maybe wegave up.
Why did we give up?
(17:42):
Well, the truth is we didn'tgive up.
Multi-system organ failure isnot something people recover
from and his body was done andhe was at peace with that.
But later I second guessed thatand I thought about that on
college and I thought, oh, maybewe should have let.
No, no, no.
It was time to say goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:04):
When someone dies or something
significant dies in your life,do you automatically say goodbye
or do you have to come to therealization that you're ready to
say goodbye For you questioningthese things?
Do you think you weren'tallowing yourself to actually
say goodbye yet because you werestill questioning?
Or do you think when somethingdies, automatically you say
(18:28):
goodbye?
Beth Demme (18:28):
No, I had goodbye, but I think I went from being
okay with saying goodbye tothinking I had done the wrong
thing by saying goodbye.
Questioning your decision, yeah.
Questioning my willingness tosay goodbye, yeah.
And I really wasn't willing.
I didn't have a choice.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:44):
So it's more of a process, like you can
say goodbye, but you might haveto say goodbye a few times for
it to stick.
Yeah.
Beth Demme (18:52):
And I remember it helped me understand.
At that point I wasn'tpracticing law anymore, but I
remembered when I practiced lawfull time.
One of the one of my practiceareas was that I actually
defended nursing homes when theywere sued, usually by family
members of someone who hadpassed away in the facility.
And there were so many timeswhen I would read the medical
(19:15):
records and I would think,obviously this person was going
to die.
I mean you, just just medically, that's what's happening.
And the family had not come toterms with it at all and that's
why they had to sue, becausethey felt like they had to
vindicate this death somehow.
And it's like blessed.
You know, your mother was 112years old.
(19:35):
Like humans don't live forever,you know.
But my experience with my dadhelped me understand that better
in hindsight to go, oh, whatI'm feeling now and being like,
oh, maybe we should have triedmore.
That's what those families werefeeling, that that was their
way to try more.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:52):
Not coming to the reality of, of the
, of the goodbye.
Really Like you are, likerefusing to say goodbye even
though you know this person isdead.
Yeah.
Beth Demme (20:02):
And that's one of the the, the stages of grief.
Right Is denial.
Yeah, there's a lot you get tobefore you get to acceptance,
and then you can loop backthrough them again.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
But sometimes there are timeswhen we have to say goodbye to
someone long before they passaway.
You know someone who's not ahealthy influence in our life.
In our life, um, I mean, you've, you've shared some of that.
(20:26):
There are family members thatyou, that are not part of your
life and never will be, for goodreasons.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:31):
Yeah, and it wasn't something that I,
like told them to their face, um, because there was nothing, you
know, that needed to be happenthere.
But, yeah, there's people thatI have said goodbye to, that I
will not talk to again, that Iwill not not associate with,
because for my mental health andfor not being, you know,
needing to have their influencein my life anymore, their
(20:52):
unhealthiness in my life, yeah,and then there's, um, you know,
there's friendships that I feellike I always feel like
friendships.
There's friendships that are infor seasons of your life.
In friendship cases, I feel likeit's more, um, there was never
a definitive goodbye, it justkind of like it just happens
over time, just as, like, lifeprogresses and your life's going
(21:15):
different directions.
I think, in those cases, likethere's been times I've looked
back at like friendships andrealized like, oh, I don't talk
to them anymore.
Huh, and it's just like youdon't realize it, you don't
realize that you said goodbyeand you never actually mourned
it, um, because it just kind ofhappened.
It wasn't kind of like, well,yeah, you just there was just a
(21:37):
natural end to it.
Beth Demme (21:38):
It just naturally ended.
I do think social media keepssome of those friendships alive
in a way, uh, kind of canprevent the goodbye, because
it's like oh, it's okay, you cantouch.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:49):
Yeah, which is nice.
Yeah, I could see that A lot ofmy friends, though, aren't
really active on social media,which is Millennials Interesting
.
Yeah, because we're like how itall started, and yet a lot of
my friends, just like are notactive at all.
Beth Demme (22:03):
Yeah, I can also say like I've been on the other
side of it, where I, I am thefriend who's like trying to stay
in touch through social media.
You know, somebody like movesaway and I'm like, oh, I miss
them, I want to see what's goingon in their life.
You know, I'm not stalking themon social media, but I'm paying
attention.
Yeah, I'm paying attention.
I want to stay, I want to stayinvolved and in those cases I
(22:24):
was just I was actually justsaying this to Hannah this week.
I was saying, you know, one ofthe things about living in
Tallahassee is it's sort oftransient.
You know people come here for aseason, they come for school or
they come for a job.
That ends up.
You know, and I was.
I was just talking about somany of the people that I've met
(22:45):
and really liked.
They've moved on to othercities and that can be hard.
That's like a forced goodbye,you know, like they're when
you're the one being saidgoodbye to.
That's a different thing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:58):
Well and forced goodbyes is like
something where you you don'treally have a choice in the
matter.
Yeah, and that makes me thinkof we've talked about this a
little bit before, but we bothwent to a united, we both met at
a United Methodist church andyou are a United Methodist
pastor in.
The church that we bothdeveloped our friendship in was
(23:18):
a United Methodist church andrecently they voted to leave the
United Methodist yesDenomination and to create their
own denomination.
That was a very jarring, sadreality when I I've always kind
of if I was to identify with anyreligion or any denominations.
(23:41):
United Methodist, that's whereI was raised in.
Do I believe in every singlething within the doctrine?
No, well, definitely no,because some things have not
changed.
But basically the short storyof it is United Methodist church
wants to allow gay pastors andpastors to marry me Same gender
(24:01):
couples.
Same gender couples and thepeople that left do not want
those things and they createdtheir own denomination because
of that.
It's sad because I will nevergo back to that church.
I can never go back to thatchurch.
They don't accept me.
I am gay, they would tell you.
They accept me.
Of course we invite anyone intoour church, but if you wanna be
(24:21):
married, no.
If you want to be a pastor here, no.
Beth Demme (24:25):
But you're welcome to come and give your money.
Yes, you're always welcome todo that, god loves you.
But maybe they can even changeyou.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:32):
Probably.
That's, I assume, is their goal.
Yes, which is fun, because Iwas part of that church and it
didn't change me for how manyyears was I in that church?
Beth Demme (24:41):
The first time.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:43):
That's why they had to leave.
That's why they had to leavebecause the United Methodist
didn't do a good enough jobkeeping the gays out or just
converting the gays.
Beth Demme (24:52):
It is sad, though, to lose your home church.
Like that's sad To have themwalk away from you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:56):
They did yeah, because we didn't change,
we're still United Methodist.
We didn't say we don't acceptthese things, like they told us.
We don't accept you and acceptall people and we're closing our
doors to the United Methodistchurch.
So I would say that's a forcegoodbye, where I have to be
(25:19):
faced with that reality.
I didn't choose that reality, Iwas faced with that and I would
say it's still sad.
It doesn't like, it just isreality.
I think I have accepted it.
But it's still sad Because Iactually didn't realize I was
gay until it's been less than ayear.
(25:39):
So when they actually left theUnited Methodist church, I
didn't know I was gay.
So but I still.
It was very hurtful and nowit's even more hurtful.
Now I realize that theyliterally ostracized me for who
I am and who God made me to be.
Beth Demme (25:57):
It is sad and I think one reason it's sad is
because I still care about themand I know that they don't care
about me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:05):
Have you ever regretted saying goodbye to
something Like in hindsight yourealize like you shouldn't have
left that something or endedthat relationship.
Beth Demme (26:15):
I don't think so.
I think the closest I've comewas the grief over my dad and
thinking that maybe we hadn'tdone enough to delay the goodbye
.
That's probably the closestI've come.
Have you?
Have you regretted a goodbye?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:30):
Well, I am somebody that really thinks
through a lot of stuff in life,just in general, everything Like
if you ask me to do something,I'm gonna think about it.
I'm not just gonna say yes, youknow that about me.
But when I say yes, that's ahard yes, that's a 100% gonna
happen unless I'm sick, yes, soI would say I can't think of any
(26:53):
goodbyes.
I've regretted and ultimately,with hindsight, I realized how
important it was.
So like when I left Apple, likeI didn't know what was gonna
happen next, but I moved back toTallahassee, I started working
at the church and I loved mylife, like that was the very
best decision for me and for mymental health specifically.
And when I left the church, Ihad literally no idea what I was
(27:17):
gonna do and I decided to gofull time with Mother in Our
Projects and that was eightyears ago.
I'm still doing that.
I can definitely see aftersaying goodbye, I can see how
good and right that decision wasand how important that was for
me.
Now, when it comes to somethinglike saying goodbye to my dog
(27:37):
Mac you know it's been almost ayear Do I regret that?
I mean that's you can't regretsomething that, like I didn't
choose for her to die, but I cansee all the positives that she
brought to my life.
You know, there was a momentwhere I was like I'm never
having a dog again, like I'mnever, I can't do this.
But then realizing howimportant the process of saying
goodbye was and how important itwas that she was in my life for
(28:01):
the time she was in my life.
So I don't wouldn't say I everregret goodbyes, but I can
definitely see how importantthey were.
That process was in my life.
Like no one really wants tolike go through a process for
anything, Like.
Beth Demme (28:13):
I don't think we like are like seeking out oh
process.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:16):
This will be good for me, but once you go
through it, I don't know thatit's going to make it easier
necessarily.
Actually, my therapist did saythe more times I go through the
grieving process, the easier itwill be in the.
Not that I won't go through thegiving process, but I think
I'll have that like knowledgeand it will help like help me
(28:36):
win.
You know people pass and thingslike that.
So I guess there is somethingto like.
The more we say goodbye, thebetter we get at it and maybe
the more we can consciously knowlike when the time is to say
goodbye.
Beth Demme (28:50):
I did just think of a forced goodbye that I was
really sad about, but that itended up not being a forever
goodbye.
So Steven and I have beenmarried for 28 years, but we
started dating in high schooland he was a year ahead of me in
school and when he came over tothe Florida State University he
broke up with me because he didnot want to have a high school
girlfriend, and that was very,very sad for me.
(29:12):
I did not want the relationshipto end.
I was really sad, but then wegot back together.
So I guess he regretted sayinggoodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:21):
We'll have to ask him about that.
But ultimately, do you think itso more?
It was a pause.
Beth Demme (29:29):
It ended up being a pause, but there was no way to
know that at the time.
There was no way to know it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:32):
So do you think you grieved the
relationship and you were overit?
Beth Demme (29:36):
I was not over it Okay, but I definitely grieved.
My mom still teases me about itto this day.
I thought you were going to cryforever.
I was sad.
I got dumped.
I was sad and I wonder what hewas feeling.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:52):
You know if he was feeling the same way
or if, because, like I wouldthink, a lot of times in a
relationship, where arelationship ends, one person's
a driving force, in that it canalso be a mutual thing.
But I think there's probably alot of times where one person is
the one to say goodbye and theother person.
So I wonder what the feeling isfor the person that says the
(30:15):
goodbye versus the person thathears the goodbye, like what the
emotional toll is on that.
Beth Demme (30:19):
I had to handle a divorce case one time.
It was a friend of a partner atthe law firm and we represented
the husband and he wasabsolutely done with this
marriage.
It was a very short marriage,they were very young.
He basically said as soon as wegot married I knew it was wrong
.
And I mean they had beenmarried months, why didn't they
get?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:36):
an old then.
Beth Demme (30:37):
I don't think they met the requirements for a
moment.
So we go before the judge, youknow, for the divorce and the
judge says so, this is what thetwo of you have decided you want
.
And the wife was like no, yourhonor, this is not what I want.
I love him and I want to bemarried to him.
And the judge was like, oh snap, ask that question wrong.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:56):
You know like you could see it in his
face, you know what he was like.
Beth Demme (30:59):
I am so sorry.
Let me rephrase that you bothunderstand why you're here today
.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:06):
Did the man roll his eyes like oh my
gosh.
Beth Demme (31:09):
No, he was sad that it was making her sad, but also
like he knew it had to be done.
He knew it was time to saygoodbye and that her being in a
marriage with somebody who didnot want to be married to her
was not ultimately going to begood for her either, you know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:24):
Why didn't he want to be married to
her?
Were you working for him?
Beth Demme (31:26):
Yeah, I was working for him and he didn't have a
specific reason.
He wasn't.
He was like she's actually anice person, like she's very
pretty, she's happy to talk to,like he didn't have.
He just he wasn't actually inlove with her.
It was more like everybody saidthis was a great relationship
and you know everything fromlike you guys look great
together to you seem greattogether too, and it just
snowballed.
I think it got away from himand he was young, so he just
(31:47):
kind of went with her and he wasyoung and he thought, okay,
this is going to be okay.
Everybody says it's going to beokay, it's going to be okay.
And then he got married and hewas like I have done the wrong
thing.
You know, I should have saidgoodbye a long time ago and it
caused a lot of pain.
That he didn't say goodbyesooner that he didn't say
goodbye sooner For both of themit caught.
You know he caused pain to bothof them by not saying goodbye
when it was time to say goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:08):
Well and I think that's part of saying
goodbye is you have to reallyknow yourself and be honest with
yourself to be able to do it,to be able to say goodbye and to
be able to know Cause like forme it's always been a feeling.
But if I'm not in touch enoughwith myself, then I wouldn't
recognize that feeling andespecially if you're young,
you're not going to recognizethat like you would as you get
older.
It does take some lifeexperience.
(32:29):
Yeah, I wonder how many peopleregret not saying goodbye sooner
than anything.
Beth Demme (32:35):
Well, one thing we have no choice about saying
goodbye to is the calendarchanging, and that's getting
ready to happen.
We're about to say goodbye to ayear, say hello to a year.
How do you feel about that?
You ready?
You ready to say goodbye tothis year?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:50):
This has been a year.
A year.
It started with a bang, withMac passing away.
And then I started to realizethat I might be gay.
And then I realized I was gayand then I started dating a
woman for the first.
Well, I started dating reallyfor the first time in my life.
(33:11):
I had dated a few guys here andthere, but never had a real
relationship, so this has been abanger of a year.
Yeah, am I ready to say goodbye?
Yes, and I'm very interested tosee where next year takes me.
How about you?
Same, I'm the gay thing forsure With you.
Yeah, is that what you?
Beth Demme (33:31):
learned this year.
You didn't tell us about that.
I realized this year that Stephis gay and but I have enjoyed
seeing how happy you are beingyourself, being your authentic
self and also being in arelationship.
That's been fun to watch Havinga gay old time.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:49):
That's perfect.
Beth Demme (33:51):
But I like new beginnings too.
So I'm ready for.
I'm ready to say goodbye tothis year and ready for the new
year, and we'll see what 2024holds.
At the end of each episode, weend with questions for
reflection.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:05):
These are questions based on today's show
that Beth will read and leave alittle pause for you to answer
to yourself, or you can find aPDF on our website.
Number one what's the lastthing you said goodbye to?
Beth Demme (34:18):
What emotions are tied to that?
Number two what's the hardestgoodbye you've ever had?
Number three have you everregretted a goodbye, why?
And number four what are yourfeelings on saying goodbye to?
Each year, this has been theDiscovering Our Scars podcast.
Goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:38):
This has been the Discovering Our Scars
podcast.
Goodbye.
Welcome to the Discovering Our Scars podcast.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:06):
We share personal experiences so we can
learn from each other.
I'm Steph and I'm Beth.
I've been in recovery for 17years and am the author of
Discovering my Scars, my memoirabout what's done in the
darkness eventually comes tolight.
Beth Demme (00:16):
I'm a lawyer turned pastor who's all about
self-awareness and emotionalhealth, because I know what it's
like to have neither of thosethings.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:23):
Beth and I have been friends for years,
have gone through a recoveryprogram together, and when I
wanted to start a podcast, shewas the only name that came to
mind as co-host.
Beth Demme (00:29):
I didn't hesitate to say yes because I've learned a
lot from sharing personalexperiences with Steph over the
years.
We value honest conversationsand we hope you do too.
On today's show we're going tohave an honest conversation
titled Time to Say Goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (00:43):
Then we'll share a slice of life, and
the show will close withquestions for reflection.
We'll invite you to reflect onthe conversation in your own
life.
Well, bye.
Beth Demme (00:51):
Yeah.
You were like, let's have ashow and call it Time to Say
Goodbye, and I was like are youtrying to tell me something, are
you?
Do you want to say goodbye tome, are you like?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:00):
no, never .
Get out of the podcast studio,that's in my house Actually, I
can't say never, because I thinkthat's the whole point of
today's episode is that at somepoint we will have to say
goodbye.
But I don't like to think aboutit, about saying goodbye to
people in your life.
Yeah, I don't like to thinkabout that.
Okay, well, and I guess that'swhat we're talking about today
is, as we were thinking throughthis topic, we realized there's
(01:21):
a lot of things that we do saygoodbye to in our life and have
to say goodbye to, and it's notnecessarily the obvious goodbyes
.
So that's, I think, what we'regoing to dig into.
Beth Demme (01:33):
Yeah.
So just to recap, what oftenhappens on the Discovering Our
Scars podcast is, steph says,hey, maybe we should think about
this or talk about this, andI'm like, oh, I don't want to
think about that.
And she's like, yes, let's doan episode on it then.
Well, the truth is we arenearing the end of the year, and
so there is a sense of, likethings, winding down, a natural
(01:54):
goodbye, yeah.
And so say goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (01:59):
But that is something that happens to
everyone at the same time, atthe same time and place every
year.
So I guess that is a good placeto start.
Is goodbyes that are you knowall the time, like even on your
birthday.
Like you know, there's two waysof looking at your birthday
(02:20):
actually it's like it's like awhole new year, exciting new
year, that you don't know what'scoming.
Or it can be sad Like oh mygosh, I'm like right, I'm not,
you know 36 anymore.
Beth Demme (02:32):
Yeah Well, I think people especially feel that way
at decades, right Like oh,goodbye 30s, hello 40s.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (02:38):
Do you think as you get older, you get
sadder around birthdays or happy, or like do you think there's a
different shift as you getolder with birthdays?
Beth Demme (02:49):
I really didn't like turning 30, but every birthday
since then has been pretty goodand it's not like my 30,.
My, that was a bad year and itwas just like something about
that number to me felt reallymonumental.
And the numbers after that it'skind of like, yeah, now, when I
get closer to 50, I may feeldifferently.
It's not that far away, but itis a couple years away.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:10):
Yeah, so like the decades.
Beth Demme (03:12):
Yeah, I think that there's something about the
decades.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (03:16):
Yeah, like birthdays don't really hold
any weight to me anymore.
I remember when I was younger,like birthdays were like, oh my
gosh, I'm turning 18, whatever.
But now it's just kind of likea day and it's more.
It's more like a reflection forme about just life in general.
So I get kind of likeintrospective more on birthdays
(03:38):
and I don't necessarily, I guess, I go through the emotions of
it.
Like there is an element that'ssad of like like, oh my gosh,
should I waste just last year,like I'm only going to be 36
once.
Did I do everything I need todo when I was 36?
And then there's like therealization, like, oh my gosh, I
am 37.
Wow, wow, do you still alwaysknow your age?
(04:00):
No, I, the other day Iliterally was thinking in my
head I'm like, oh my gosh, I'mmaybe 39 this year.
That's crazy, that's so closeto 40.
And then a second later I waslike, oh my gosh, no, I'm going
to be 38 this year.
Oh my gosh, I'm going to sayyear of my life.
So no, I absolutely don't knowmy age and it's, it's pretty
(04:21):
jarring, yeah.
Beth Demme (04:22):
So with birthdays, with like, when, the, when the
year changes, we are sayinggoodbye, but we're also
immediately saying hi tosomething new, right, hi to the
new year, hi to the new age, andso maybe those good guys are
easier because they're they'recompletely out of our control.
Like, the calendar is going todo what it's going to do, time
is going to do what it does, butalso then we have this new
thing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (04:42):
And we have that set set aside time for
kind of that reflection.
So I think, for me, the goodguys that are like the hardest
are the unexpected and thepeople, but there's been
definitely a handful of goodguys that have been super hard.
I think, for me, um, leaving myjobs, um, I left my job at
Apple.
Um, and that was really hardbecause I like the comfort of
(05:07):
knowing of what's going tohappen and even though with
Apple, there was things I wasfrustrated about and there was
things that, like I was like Iwant to move on, it still was
super scary to leave because itwas the unknown like what is
that going to look?
Like?
Um, and the easier thing wouldhave just been to stay.
Beth Demme (05:23):
Yeah Well, how did you know it was time to say
goodbye?
It was a feeling, yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (05:27):
Um, you know, there was definitely times
throughout my five years ofworking there where I was like
I'm so mad I'm just going toquit.
You know there's those feelingsof, look, I'm going to quit.
And those aren't the times thatI quit, because that's not, um,
you know, when I it'sdefinitely a feeling of like,
you know there's just that likeleave, but it was, it was, um, a
rational feeling when it waslike you know, there's
(05:51):
definitely things I'm frustratedabout here, but ultimately I
feel like I've done everythingthat I needed to do here and
it's time to move on.
So it was a feeling of it'stime.
And once I realized thatfeeling, that's when I, you know
, made the next steps of okay,where, when am I going to do
next?
I'm going to tell my boss I'mgoing to, you know, quit all
(06:11):
those things.
It definitely was.
You know I was saying goodbye.
It was never going to be thesame again.
Beth Demme (06:18):
Did you have that feeling when you decided to stay
in Orlando after you finishedat UCF, like?
Did you have a sense that youwere saying goodbye to your
hometown?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (06:28):
And I decided to stay.
It wasn't even, um, a really aprocess, because it was like I
had been in school and I hadbeen working at Disney and Apple
and I was going to be able tomake those jobs permanent after
school.
And it just was, it just allhappened.
Just, it just happened Like itwasn't a choice I really made
(06:49):
and my last semester of schoolwas online and so I moved to an
apartment closer to you to Appleand I went full time.
So, like it just kind ofhappened.
It wasn't really like I am nowa Orlando liver, Like this is
where I live now.
It just kind of like this justis.
So I don't remember like asaying goodbye to Tallahassee.
(07:09):
I mean, I said goodbye toTallahassee when I moved to go
to UCF for school and I washappy about that.
I was like I'm not gonna be atownie at all.
No, and I still am not a towniebecause I chose to come back.
I wasn't forced to come back.
So I don't think, you know, itwas a conscious choice to move
back to Tallahassee.
(07:30):
And then I fell in love withTallahassee in an adult way.
You know it's not, it still ismy childhood place, but, like in
the same thing.
I decided to leave my job atthe church years ago.
Now I how many is?
10 years now, I don't even know.
Well, less than that, but stillit's eight years, eight years
ago.
And it was the same feelingwith Apple, where it's like
(07:52):
there's things I'm frustratedabout, there's things that I
like, there's comfort in theknown, but it's time.
And it was just that samefeeling, but it was hard because
I'm saying goodbye to all mycoworkers and everything that I
knew and it would never be thesame again.
And also, when you quit a job,you know that says something,
that the finality of it.
Like you know I think there'sother ways that you could leave
(08:16):
a job, in other things thatcould bring you to different
places.
But like when you just say likeI'm quitting, I'm done, like I
don't know, there's justsomething like very final about
it.
Beth Demme (08:27):
No, you're right.
I think I've only ever quit onejob, like when I left the law
firm that I worked for to stayhome with my kids.
It was I'm gonna do this for aseason and I'll be back.
Oh, so you didn't even reallyquit.
I never quit.
And I mean, have you yet?
Or generously, kindly,wonderfully, they would check in
(08:50):
with me, like, hey, are youstill checking?
Are you ready to come back?
You know they've stoppedchecking now.
Oh, okay, but I reallyappreciated that for the first
couple of years they checked inwith me and I could have gone
back if I had been ready.
And I wasn't ready, I needed tobe home with my kids.
I needed it for them and Ineeded it for me.
(09:10):
So, yeah, I never really quit.
The only job I quit was areally bad job.
Yeah, that was like bye yeahthat I worked, I think, for one
or two days and I was like thisis a really terrible place and I
don't wanna work here anymore.
And the manager said well, canyou finish out your schedule?
And I said no, this is a reallyterrible place, I don't wanna
work here anymore.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:30):
I was really honest.
Wow, yeah, were you in highschool?
Beth Demme (09:34):
No, I was in college .
Oh, okay, yeah, I was incollege.
Was it Discovery Zone?
No, how did you work atDiscovery Zone?
Close, the very Right.
I think they were still open,though when I left I graduated.
I graduated from college, andso then it was like this is a
natural ending point.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (09:51):
Your two examples are kind of what I'm
talking about, where, like whenI quit, like that's a, like that
says something, but you had anatural oh I'm done with college
, so it made sense to leave thatjob, and so no one really, you
know, questioned that, and thenyou didn't actually quit your
law job.
I didn't, you didn't have thatfinality and so and that's
(10:12):
enough.
So those are two examples ofways where you're not making
that like full commitment ofgoodbye.
You're still holding onto athread, and I wonder how many
people are in like my situationversus your situation where,
like I, like when I'm done withsomething, I'm done with it.
I don't want to leave the loosestrings, it's hard, but I want
to like this is done and we allknow it's done, and for you it's
(10:34):
like I'm going to hold on towhatever.
Beth Demme (10:36):
I can.
I want to keep my options open,yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:38):
Yeah, or I want it to just naturally
happen where there's, whichtotally makes sense.
You're that way now, like youare the yes woman and you're
going to say yes.
Beth Demme (10:47):
I say yes, I can yes and yeah.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (10:49):
Like your goal in life is to say yes, yes
, and so if someone's like, well, although you didn't say yes to
go back to the law firm, butyou said yes to yeah keep
checking in.
Beth Demme (11:00):
Yeah, I was always not.
Yet Can't do it yet.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:03):
See, that was so annoying me though, like
that would so annoying me, justgive just.
If you're not coming back, justbe done with it Like I would.
That's how I am.
I prefer someone to becompletely honest with
themselves first, and then withme.
I really thought I would goback, though.
I really did, but how manyyears was it until you realized
you weren't going back, and thenthey stopped calling Like how
(11:25):
long did that?
Beth Demme (11:25):
take.
I mean, it was probably two orthree years before they stopped
calling.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:29):
That's crazy, but I stayed friends with
them, see, but I think there'san element of you that don't
want to upset people, and if youhad said I quit, so you'd never
really had to say so.
It's almost the it's the easierway out to just kind of keep
that leash there and just for myown self.
Beth Demme (11:47):
I wanted to keep that option open.
I wanted to keep.
I wanted to go back to that jobif I wanted to.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (11:54):
In reality, though, you could have
easily gone.
You could have easily said Iquit, I'm done, but you still
could have gone back.
If you had asked years later,you could have still said hey,
like were they keeping yourposition open.
No, I mean, Well then there'sno reason you could have easily
gone back to it without likeholding this lifeline.
Beth Demme (12:13):
A law firm's a little different, because you
basically have to earn your ownsalary.
Yeah, so it's, if they thinkthat you can generate enough
work to cover your salary,they're gonna say, yes, you
could come back.
Yeah, but yeah, I'm thinkingabout even like my high school
job.
I had it until I went away tocollege and then, when I went
away to college, I came back andI worked there in the summer,
(12:36):
so I really haven't.
I've only quit that one job.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (12:40):
And that's the job I had in high
school was working at the churchthat I worked at years later
and that was kind of whathappened.
There was I was in college andthen or no, I was in high school
and then I moved to UCF.
So it was more like I'm leaving.
It wasn't like I quit.
So I definitely know thatfeeling verse like I quit.
(13:03):
So I wonder how many peopleactually quit jobs.
Beth Demme (13:06):
Right.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:07):
Or leave, and also it's a kind of a
privileged place to be with thelaw firm where, like, how many
jobs are going to check in tosee if you want to come back?
Like most jobs are like you'rehere or you're not, like yeah,
it's true they were they werereally good to me.
That's a kind of a differentsituation, like I couldn't have
done that at Apple.
You know, if I wanted to, itwas either you quit, if you come
(13:29):
back, then we'll rehire you,but we're not gonna keep
checking in with you.
So I think that's a pretty rare.
Beth Demme (13:34):
They were really kind and really generous with me
.
That's true.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (13:37):
So definitely saying goodbye to a
job is like you know, it's a,it's a kind of a transition in
life kind of goodbye.
And then something that I havedefinitely had experience with
lately is losing a person or pet.
So I in the last few years Ilost both my grandparents and my
(13:57):
aunt and that was definitelykind of a a hard reality.
And then you know, justactually almost a year, it's
gonna be a year end of January Ilost my first dog ever, mac,
and you know it's still hardlike, especially like last month
was her gotcha day and herbirthday, and so just you know
(14:20):
the anniversaries of those dates.
I think it will obviously geteasier with time, but because it
was my first, you know.
Beth Demme (14:25):
I think it's just all of that and like your
memories from one year ago.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (14:29):
Yeah, yeah, and then in January last
year she was sick for a lot ofJanuary.
So I'm like gearing up, I'mlike, okay, I need to do a lot
of happy things, cause, yeah, itwas a definitely a hard reality
last year.
But I think I think losing,especially something kind of
unexpected, like with Mac.
She got sick really quickly andthen I had to like put her down
(14:52):
within like two weeks of thiskind of big pain that she was in
, and so it was unexpected.
And so I think these likeunexpected goodbyes I don't
think it's ever easy to losesomebody, but like if someone
has cancer or something that hasbeen an illness going on, like
you kind of can prepare yourself, even though you can never like
(15:13):
fully be prepared.
You still have to go through theprocess.
But with Mac, I mean, it wasjust I had never.
That was the first time I'dhave really gone through like
the full grieving process andlike really like lived in each
of those steps.
So I think those, I think forme that's probably probably the
most life changing goodbye I'veever had with Mac.
How about you?
Beth Demme (15:34):
Shortly before my 14th birthday, my oldest brother
died in an accident, so it wascompletely unexpected.
That was.
That has been formative in mylife.
But also, I think when I thinkabout saying goodbye to a person
, I think about my dad.
He passed away in February of2014.
(15:54):
So we're coming up on the 10year actually of that.
And he had been.
He had been sick, he had somemedical conditions and I knew
things were getting harder forhim, but then he went into the
hospital on a Sunday and passedaway on the Friday.
So that week everything wasreally compressed and he was
(16:18):
ready.
And I think that happenssometimes where the people who
are at the end of their life,nearing the end of their life,
they're ready maybe before theirfamily members are.
It was a time that was reallyholy and spiritual and filled
with a lot of blessings and thatin Christianity we would say
the peace that passes,understanding, like that idea.
(16:39):
So much so that we met withhospice pretty early on, like
maybe on Tuesday of that week orsomething, and there was still
an oncology consult kind of outin the paperwork and when the
oncologist came, the nursepulled me aside later and told
me the story.
But she said, the oncologistcame and I explained to him that
(17:00):
the consult wasn't neededanymore and he said well, why?
And she said well, mr Gibbonsis in multi-system organ failure
.
And the oncologist said yeah,but we could still treat the
cancer.
And she was mad.
The nurse was mad about it.
She was like why would he wannaput somebody through that?
Why would he wanna put yourfamily through that?
(17:21):
She was venting and I wastotally at peace.
My dad was at peace.
This is what he wanted.
He was awake and alert and wasable to communicate his choices
and I was fine with it.
And then, like six months later, I thought, oh, no, maybe we
should have tried more.
Maybe we shouldn't, maybe wegave up.
Why did we give up?
(17:42):
Well, the truth is we didn'tgive up.
Multi-system organ failure isnot something people recover
from and his body was done andhe was at peace with that.
But later I second guessed thatand I thought about that on
college and I thought, oh, maybewe should have let.
No, no, no.
It was time to say goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:04):
When someone dies or something
significant dies in your life,do you automatically say goodbye
or do you have to come to therealization that you're ready to
say goodbye For you questioningthese things?
Do you think you weren'tallowing yourself to actually
say goodbye yet because you werestill questioning?
Or do you think when somethingdies, automatically you say
(18:28):
goodbye?
Beth Demme (18:28):
No, I had goodbye, but I think I went from being
okay with saying goodbye tothinking I had done the wrong
thing by saying goodbye.
Questioning your decision, yeah.
Questioning my willingness tosay goodbye, yeah.
And I really wasn't willing.
I didn't have a choice.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (18:44):
So it's more of a process, like you can
say goodbye, but you might haveto say goodbye a few times for
it to stick.
Yeah.
Beth Demme (18:52):
And I remember it helped me understand.
At that point I wasn'tpracticing law anymore, but I
remembered when I practiced lawfull time.
One of the one of my practiceareas was that I actually
defended nursing homes when theywere sued, usually by family
members of someone who hadpassed away in the facility.
And there were so many timeswhen I would read the medical
(19:15):
records and I would think,obviously this person was going
to die.
I mean you, just just medically, that's what's happening.
And the family had not come toterms with it at all and that's
why they had to sue, becausethey felt like they had to
vindicate this death somehow.
And it's like blessed.
You know, your mother was 112years old.
(19:35):
Like humans don't live forever,you know.
But my experience with my dadhelped me understand that better
in hindsight to go, oh, whatI'm feeling now and being like,
oh, maybe we should have triedmore.
That's what those families werefeeling, that that was their
way to try more.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (19:52):
Not coming to the reality of, of the
, of the goodbye.
Really Like you are, likerefusing to say goodbye even
though you know this person isdead.
Yeah.
Beth Demme (20:02):
And that's one of the the, the stages of grief.
Right Is denial.
Yeah, there's a lot you get tobefore you get to acceptance,
and then you can loop backthrough them again.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
But sometimes there are timeswhen we have to say goodbye to
someone long before they passaway.
You know someone who's not ahealthy influence in our life.
In our life, um, I mean, you've, you've shared some of that.
(20:26):
There are family members thatyou, that are not part of your
life and never will be, for goodreasons.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (20:31):
Yeah, and it wasn't something that I,
like told them to their face, um, because there was nothing, you
know, that needed to be happenthere.
But, yeah, there's people thatI have said goodbye to, that I
will not talk to again, that Iwill not not associate with,
because for my mental health andfor not being, you know,
needing to have their influencein my life anymore, their
(20:52):
unhealthiness in my life, yeah,and then there's, um, you know,
there's friendships that I feellike I always feel like
friendships.
There's friendships that are infor seasons of your life.
In friendship cases, I feel likeit's more, um, there was never
a definitive goodbye, it justkind of like it just happens
over time, just as, like, lifeprogresses and your life's going
(21:15):
different directions.
I think, in those cases, likethere's been times I've looked
back at like friendships andrealized like, oh, I don't talk
to them anymore.
Huh, and it's just like youdon't realize it, you don't
realize that you said goodbyeand you never actually mourned
it, um, because it just kind ofhappened.
It wasn't kind of like, well,yeah, you just there was just a
(21:37):
natural end to it.
Beth Demme (21:38):
It just naturally ended.
I do think social media keepssome of those friendships alive
in a way, uh, kind of canprevent the goodbye, because
it's like oh, it's okay, you cantouch.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (21:49):
Yeah, which is nice.
Yeah, I could see that A lot ofmy friends, though, aren't
really active on social media,which is Millennials Interesting
.
Yeah, because we're like how itall started, and yet a lot of
my friends, just like are notactive at all.
Beth Demme (22:03):
Yeah, I can also say like I've been on the other
side of it, where I, I am thefriend who's like trying to stay
in touch through social media.
You know, somebody like movesaway and I'm like, oh, I miss
them, I want to see what's goingon in their life.
You know, I'm not stalking themon social media, but I'm paying
attention.
Yeah, I'm paying attention.
I want to stay, I want to stayinvolved and in those cases I
(22:24):
was just I was actually justsaying this to Hannah this week.
I was saying, you know, one ofthe things about living in
Tallahassee is it's sort oftransient.
You know people come here for aseason, they come for school or
they come for a job.
That ends up.
You know, and I was.
I was just talking about somany of the people that I've met
(22:45):
and really liked.
They've moved on to othercities and that can be hard.
That's like a forced goodbye,you know, like they're when
you're the one being saidgoodbye to.
That's a different thing.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (22:58):
Well and forced goodbyes is like
something where you you don'treally have a choice in the
matter.
Yeah, and that makes me thinkof we've talked about this a
little bit before, but we bothwent to a united, we both met at
a United Methodist church andyou are a United Methodist
pastor in.
The church that we bothdeveloped our friendship in was
(23:18):
a United Methodist church andrecently they voted to leave the
United Methodist yesDenomination and to create their
own denomination.
That was a very jarring, sadreality when I I've always kind
of if I was to identify with anyreligion or any denominations.
(23:41):
United Methodist, that's whereI was raised in.
Do I believe in every singlething within the doctrine?
No, well, definitely no,because some things have not
changed.
But basically the short storyof it is United Methodist church
wants to allow gay pastors andpastors to marry me Same gender
(24:01):
couples.
Same gender couples and thepeople that left do not want
those things and they createdtheir own denomination because
of that.
It's sad because I will nevergo back to that church.
I can never go back to thatchurch.
They don't accept me.
I am gay, they would tell you.
They accept me.
Of course we invite anyone intoour church, but if you wanna be
(24:21):
married, no.
If you want to be a pastor here, no.
Beth Demme (24:25):
But you're welcome to come and give your money.
Yes, you're always welcome todo that, god loves you.
But maybe they can even changeyou.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:32):
Probably.
That's, I assume, is their goal.
Yes, which is fun, because Iwas part of that church and it
didn't change me for how manyyears was I in that church?
Beth Demme (24:41):
The first time.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:43):
That's why they had to leave.
That's why they had to leavebecause the United Methodist
didn't do a good enough jobkeeping the gays out or just
converting the gays.
Beth Demme (24:52):
It is sad, though, to lose your home church.
Like that's sad To have themwalk away from you.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (24:56):
They did yeah, because we didn't change,
we're still United Methodist.
We didn't say we don't acceptthese things, like they told us.
We don't accept you and acceptall people and we're closing our
doors to the United Methodistchurch.
So I would say that's a forcegoodbye, where I have to be
(25:19):
faced with that reality.
I didn't choose that reality, Iwas faced with that and I would
say it's still sad.
It doesn't like, it just isreality.
I think I have accepted it.
But it's still sad Because Iactually didn't realize I was
gay until it's been less than ayear.
(25:39):
So when they actually left theUnited Methodist church, I
didn't know I was gay.
So but I still.
It was very hurtful and nowit's even more hurtful.
Now I realize that theyliterally ostracized me for who
I am and who God made me to be.
Beth Demme (25:57):
It is sad and I think one reason it's sad is
because I still care about themand I know that they don't care
about me.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:05):
Have you ever regretted saying goodbye to
something Like in hindsight yourealize like you shouldn't have
left that something or endedthat relationship.
Beth Demme (26:15):
I don't think so.
I think the closest I've comewas the grief over my dad and
thinking that maybe we hadn'tdone enough to delay the goodbye
.
That's probably the closestI've come.
Have you?
Have you regretted a goodbye?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (26:30):
Well, I am somebody that really thinks
through a lot of stuff in life,just in general, everything Like
if you ask me to do something,I'm gonna think about it.
I'm not just gonna say yes, youknow that about me.
But when I say yes, that's ahard yes, that's a 100% gonna
happen unless I'm sick, yes, soI would say I can't think of any
(26:53):
goodbyes.
I've regretted and ultimately,with hindsight, I realized how
important it was.
So like when I left Apple, likeI didn't know what was gonna
happen next, but I moved back toTallahassee, I started working
at the church and I loved mylife, like that was the very
best decision for me and for mymental health specifically.
And when I left the church, Ihad literally no idea what I was
(27:17):
gonna do and I decided to gofull time with Mother in Our
Projects and that was eightyears ago.
I'm still doing that.
I can definitely see aftersaying goodbye, I can see how
good and right that decision wasand how important that was for
me.
Now, when it comes to somethinglike saying goodbye to my dog
(27:37):
Mac you know it's been almost ayear Do I regret that?
I mean that's you can't regretsomething that, like I didn't
choose for her to die, but I cansee all the positives that she
brought to my life.
You know, there was a momentwhere I was like I'm never
having a dog again, like I'mnever, I can't do this.
But then realizing howimportant the process of saying
goodbye was and how important itwas that she was in my life for
(28:01):
the time she was in my life.
So I don't wouldn't say I everregret goodbyes, but I can
definitely see how importantthey were.
That process was in my life.
Like no one really wants tolike go through a process for
anything, Like.
Beth Demme (28:13):
I don't think we like are like seeking out oh
process.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (28:16):
This will be good for me, but once you go
through it, I don't know thatit's going to make it easier
necessarily.
Actually, my therapist did saythe more times I go through the
grieving process, the easier itwill be in the.
Not that I won't go through thegiving process, but I think
I'll have that like knowledgeand it will help like help me
(28:36):
win.
You know people pass and thingslike that.
So I guess there is somethingto like.
The more we say goodbye, thebetter we get at it and maybe
the more we can consciously knowlike when the time is to say
goodbye.
Beth Demme (28:50):
I did just think of a forced goodbye that I was
really sad about, but that itended up not being a forever
goodbye.
So Steven and I have beenmarried for 28 years, but we
started dating in high schooland he was a year ahead of me in
school and when he came over tothe Florida State University he
broke up with me because he didnot want to have a high school
girlfriend, and that was very,very sad for me.
(29:12):
I did not want the relationshipto end.
I was really sad, but then wegot back together.
So I guess he regretted sayinggoodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:21):
We'll have to ask him about that.
But ultimately, do you think itso more?
It was a pause.
Beth Demme (29:29):
It ended up being a pause, but there was no way to
know that at the time.
There was no way to know it.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:32):
So do you think you grieved the
relationship and you were overit?
Beth Demme (29:36):
I was not over it Okay, but I definitely grieved.
My mom still teases me about itto this day.
I thought you were going to cryforever.
I was sad.
I got dumped.
I was sad and I wonder what hewas feeling.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (29:52):
You know if he was feeling the same way
or if, because, like I wouldthink, a lot of times in a
relationship, where arelationship ends, one person's
a driving force, in that it canalso be a mutual thing.
But I think there's probably alot of times where one person is
the one to say goodbye and theother person.
So I wonder what the feeling isfor the person that says the
(30:15):
goodbye versus the person thathears the goodbye, like what the
emotional toll is on that.
Beth Demme (30:19):
I had to handle a divorce case one time.
It was a friend of a partner atthe law firm and we represented
the husband and he wasabsolutely done with this
marriage.
It was a very short marriage,they were very young.
He basically said as soon as wegot married I knew it was wrong
.
And I mean they had beenmarried months, why didn't they
get?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:36):
an old then.
Beth Demme (30:37):
I don't think they met the requirements for a
moment.
So we go before the judge, youknow, for the divorce and the
judge says so, this is what thetwo of you have decided you want
.
And the wife was like no, yourhonor, this is not what I want.
I love him and I want to bemarried to him.
And the judge was like, oh snap, ask that question wrong.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (30:56):
You know like you could see it in his
face, you know what he was like.
Beth Demme (30:59):
I am so sorry.
Let me rephrase that you bothunderstand why you're here today
.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:06):
Did the man roll his eyes like oh my
gosh.
Beth Demme (31:09):
No, he was sad that it was making her sad, but also
like he knew it had to be done.
He knew it was time to saygoodbye and that her being in a
marriage with somebody who didnot want to be married to her
was not ultimately going to begood for her either, you know.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (31:24):
Why didn't he want to be married to
her?
Were you working for him?
Beth Demme (31:26):
Yeah, I was working for him and he didn't have a
specific reason.
He wasn't.
He was like she's actually anice person, like she's very
pretty, she's happy to talk to,like he didn't have.
He just he wasn't actually inlove with her.
It was more like everybody saidthis was a great relationship
and you know everything fromlike you guys look great
together to you seem greattogether too, and it just
snowballed.
I think it got away from himand he was young, so he just
(31:47):
kind of went with her and he wasyoung and he thought, okay,
this is going to be okay.
Everybody says it's going to beokay, it's going to be okay.
And then he got married and hewas like I have done the wrong
thing.
You know, I should have saidgoodbye a long time ago and it
caused a lot of pain.
That he didn't say goodbyesooner that he didn't say
goodbye sooner For both of themit caught.
You know he caused pain to bothof them by not saying goodbye
when it was time to say goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:08):
Well and I think that's part of saying
goodbye is you have to reallyknow yourself and be honest with
yourself to be able to do it,to be able to say goodbye and to
be able to know Cause like forme it's always been a feeling.
But if I'm not in touch enoughwith myself, then I wouldn't
recognize that feeling andespecially if you're young,
you're not going to recognizethat like you would as you get
older.
It does take some lifeexperience.
(32:29):
Yeah, I wonder how many peopleregret not saying goodbye sooner
than anything.
Beth Demme (32:35):
Well, one thing we have no choice about saying
goodbye to is the calendarchanging, and that's getting
ready to happen.
We're about to say goodbye to ayear, say hello to a year.
How do you feel about that?
You ready?
You ready to say goodbye tothis year?
Stephanie Kostopoulos (32:50):
This has been a year.
A year.
It started with a bang, withMac passing away.
And then I started to realizethat I might be gay.
And then I realized I was gayand then I started dating a
woman for the first.
Well, I started dating reallyfor the first time in my life.
(33:11):
I had dated a few guys here andthere, but never had a real
relationship, so this has been abanger of a year.
Yeah, am I ready to say goodbye?
Yes, and I'm very interested tosee where next year takes me.
How about you?
Same, I'm the gay thing forsure With you.
Yeah, is that what you?
Beth Demme (33:31):
learned this year.
You didn't tell us about that.
I realized this year that Stephis gay and but I have enjoyed
seeing how happy you are beingyourself, being your authentic
self and also being in arelationship.
That's been fun to watch Havinga gay old time.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (33:49):
That's perfect.
Beth Demme (33:51):
But I like new beginnings too.
So I'm ready for.
I'm ready to say goodbye tothis year and ready for the new
year, and we'll see what 2024holds.
At the end of each episode, weend with questions for
reflection.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:05):
These are questions based on today's show
that Beth will read and leave alittle pause for you to answer
to yourself, or you can find aPDF on our website.
Number one what's the lastthing you said goodbye to?
Beth Demme (34:18):
What emotions are tied to that?
Number two what's the hardestgoodbye you've ever had?
Number three have you everregretted a goodbye, why?
And number four what are yourfeelings on saying goodbye to?
Each year, this has been theDiscovering Our Scars podcast.
Goodbye.
Stephanie Kostopoulos (34:38):
This has been the Discovering Our Scars
podcast.
Goodbye.
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