February 9, 2024 • 44 mins
At age 36, Steph discovered something important about herself--she is a lesbian. Steph and Beth have an honest conversation about how heteronormativity, especially in the church, delayed Steph’s full awareness of who she is created to be.
Questions for Reflection:
(1) Do you think people are born queer?
(2) How have church and society influenced your understanding of who you are?
(3) Would the you of ten years ago recognize yourself today? What might surprise you?
(4) Do you care what the Bible says about homosexuality? Why or why not?
Show notes:
Episode 139, How PRIDE Became Personal
Dr. Steve Harper’s book, Holy Love
www.1946themovie.com
Follow:
Steph
Beth
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steph (00:03):
Welcome to the Discovering our scars podcast
Beth (00:06):
Where we share personal experiences so we can learn from
each other.
Steph (00:09):
Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to
but that you don't heardiscussed in other places.
Beth (00:13):
Our hope is that you're encouraged to have honest
conversations with people inyour own life.
I'm Beth and I'm Steph.
Steph (00:19):
On today's show, we're going to have an honest
conversation titled "Why Didn'tI Know I
Beth (00:24):
Then we will share a slice of life and the show will close
with questions for reflection,where we will invite you to
reflect on the conversation inyour own life.
Okay, that was a little weird.
We did our intro backwards.
It was a little weird.
152 episodes into this thing tosay your part instead of mine.
Steph (00:41):
I was really trying so hard not to say anything and
then you did so I was like don'tsay anything, don't say
anything, just be cool, just becool.
So we did reverse the introtoday so that Beth didn't have
to say she was a lesbian.
Beth (00:55):
to clarify Do you want to confuse my husband?
It is straight.
Steph (00:59):
Nothing discovered there.
But last year I did discoverthat I'm a lesbian and we talked
about that in our how PrideBecame Personal episode last
June.
It was very timely for PrideMonth.
I certainly found out I was alesbian in such a good timing,
let's say, because I was fulllesbian in June, my first Pride
(01:21):
Month.
I'm more excited this month forPride, this year for Pride
Month because I've been alesbian longer now, so I have
more Pride.
Beth (01:33):
Pride is even more personal this year.
Steph (01:36):
What I've learned over this year is that Pride Month is
actually Pride Year.
You actually are gay all year,it's not just the month.
I did realize that.
Beth (01:46):
You discovered this about yourself when you were 36.
Did it just happen when youturned 36?
Was it like you flipped aswitch, or do you think maybe
actually for all of the 36 years?
Steph (02:01):
I was actually thinking about when, because I think my
mom asked me the other day, whatday did you?
What's the anniversary of yourealizing you were gay?
And I was like I don't know.
But then I realized it wasactually the night my birthday
of last year.
So I couldn't sleep that wholeday, that whole night and I'm a
good sleeper, but it was thatnight I couldn't sleep at all
(02:23):
and it was that was, and I wasbasically I had developed a
friendship with a lesbian friendof mine in January and I was
like obsessively thinking abouther and finally realized, I
think on my birthday, that oh no, I like her different than a
friend, and so I would say mybirthday is the actual
(02:43):
anniversary of me realizing Iwas gay.
Wow, yeah, because I remembergoing on, I was kind of like
obsessing about her, not in alike crazy way, but just like
thinking about her a lot.
We were texting and I had onlyseen her at she was working at
my vet's office and I had onlyseen her at my vet's office in
scrubs, which you know I thoughtshe was cute.
(03:05):
But then I looked up herFacebook on my birthday when I
couldn't sleep that night andlike I saw pictures of her like
not in her scrubs, and I waslike oh, wow, okay.
And I saw that she had tattoosand I was like, oh goodness, so
I learned I liked girls withtattoos, yeah, and I was going
to like Facebook friend her butthen I was like no, because it's
(03:26):
my birthday and that would beweird, cause you know, people
like say happy birthday and Ididn't want I was, didn't want
her to be like why is hefriending me on her birthday at
middle of the night.
So I was like no, don't do it,wait a couple days.
So I did like that, I wentthrough my head way to play it
cool, I played it cool, I playedit cool.
Beth (03:41):
But do you think that when you were 35, you were a lesbian
?
Steph (03:44):
I think I was born a lesbian and I just didn't know
it.
And I have actually spent thisyear trying to figure out like
why didn't I know?
People have asked me.
It's not like I haven't, it'snot like people haven't wondered
and like brought it up to mebefore.
Even my mom, when I was in my20s, she asked me if I was a
(04:06):
lesbian and I was like no, butthanks for the question.
Great, but I never was likeoffended when I wasn't, like
yeah, overly offended whenpeople asked me because it was
like easy, it was an easy no,like I think I would have been
really upset if someone asked meand I was and I was hiding it,
but I I did take the time tolike well, am I?
(04:28):
I mean, I'm not into girls, soI guess I'm not and I would like
think about it and I'd be like.
You know, I always heardstories when people came out and
they said, oh, I knew since Iwas five.
And I was like well, I suredidn't know and I haven't like.
So you know, it's, it's.
It's a little confusing becauseI just assumed I would have
(04:48):
those same experiences where Iwould just know from a young age
and I would be hiding it orwhatever.
And so I didn't.
I didn't have those experiences.
But the more I think about it,the more I realize I grew up in
the, the Unite Methodist Churchand I I really enjoyed that.
(05:09):
Like I, we went to church everyweek.
It was something that wasimportant to my family and I
didn't have any issues with it,like there was.
No, there was a couple ofthings I didn't like doing.
Like my mom tried to put me inchoir and I absolutely hated
that.
I'm not someone that likes tosing or be in front of people,
so don't, don't put me in there.
Beth (05:28):
But also also a lot of small talk happens at choir, and
you are not a small talk person, no.
Steph (05:33):
And I didn't like youth group and my mom kept trying to
push me into youth group and Iwas like, no, I don't want to be
around young people.
I was one, but I was, I was anold young person.
I was never like, when theylike would like play with like I
don't know, like they just dosilly things and.
I'm just like why?
Why are we doing this Like Iwas?
never, that person.
(05:54):
That was never a good youth,but overall I really enjoyed
going to church and I wasinvolved with the church.
I did a lot of video productionfor the church in high school
and worked with the, thedirector of all the technology
in the church, and I ran sound alot and I did graphics and so I
(06:16):
was really involved.
And I don't ever remember inchurch the topic of being gay
being brought up.
I don't remember that conceptbeing discussed in any way.
So I would say I would thinksome churches would talk about
it in a bad thing, like likethis is wrong.
Beth (06:35):
This is the same In a negative way yeah.
Steph (06:36):
But I don't remember it ever really being brought up.
The only thing I ever rememberis being presented the straight
life Like this is life One dayyou will meet a man and you will
marry that man and you couldhave a child with that man.
And that was what was presented.
So I really wasn't even present.
(06:57):
Like I knew what gay peoplewere?
Um, I had a gay math teacher inmiddle school and it was talked
about in hush tones, um, and Iremember, like he's my favorite
teacher, like what, what?
Why are we talking about it?
Like this?
Like, first of all, why does itmatter?
And, second of all, like youknow, he's a great teacher.
Beth (07:17):
So yeah, yeah.
Steph (07:19):
Um, and then I started meeting people that um were gay
and was like I like this person.
Why is this?
Why is this an issue?
Beth (07:27):
Um, so, even like in terms of society, or like the
community that you grew up in,it was, it was present, but
perceived in a negative way.
Do you think yeah?
Steph (07:36):
I mean, every time that being gay was brought up it was
like hush tones or it's like,and actually somebody that I
worked with closely at thechurch was gay.
Yeah.
Beth (07:46):
Is gay.
Steph (07:48):
And I found that out when I was in like ninth grade I
think, and I found out that hewas gay and, um, that his
roommate was his partner, yeah,yeah.
And I was like, oh my gosh,cause I was a super huge fan of
this person.
I thought they were a greatperson, like I just enjoyed
working with them and I was like, okay, great.
And so early on I knew gaypeople that I, you know, liked
(08:12):
before I knew, I liked after Iknew, and so it really was an
issue, but in the people thatthe church knew that this person
was gay, but it was neverdiscussed, it was never like
celebrated, it was never broughtup.
And there were gay people inthat church besides him that I
learned about also as time wenton, and but it was always like
(08:35):
we know and they can be here.
Beth (08:38):
But if that person had not been gay, if if he were
straight and he were to beengaged and then married, it
would have been celebrated likein an unbelievable way, right.
Everybody would have beentalking about it, everybody
would have been excited andhappy about it.
Steph (08:55):
Yeah, Because when it was the gay people in the church,
it was like, cause, I feel likethere was also like a lesbian
couple that was married, but Ididn't know it for the longest
time and then, like somebodykind of like hushed to and
talked about it.
I was like, oh, cool, great.
But it was never like this isso just like it would like a
straight couple, like, oh, thisis exciting, they're together,
oh, great.
(09:15):
It was just like, oh, they're,they're together.
Yeah, you know, you know.
And it just was always likelike a hushed tone kind of thing
, not like we talk about with astraight couple, you know.
And so it wasn't that it waspresented to me that like being
gay was bad in the church, butit just wasn't presented to me
in the same way that beingstraight was like.
(09:36):
Being straight was presented asthis is the norm, this is right
, this is how life is and thereare gay people.
Beth (09:44):
But we whisper about them, right, and so I think that was
sexuality in general handledwell, because I think often the
church doesn't handle it welland particularly, you know, in
the nineties and the eighties.
In the nineties, really, purityculture was such a big deal
that I don't know that even that, even being heterosexual was,
was handled all that well.
So I think that the theteaching point for me is that
(10:09):
maybe the easiest, safest thingis to say that sex is a gift
from God, because it is.
I don't think I've ever saidthe word orgasm on the podcast.
Let me just say, like, orgasmsare a gift from God, and so
that's going to be the title ofthe subject.
That's the sound bite.
But so the safest in terms ofteaching it right, the safest
thing is to say experiencingthat within the, within the
(10:33):
boundaries of a monogamouscovenant marriage.
That's like the gold standard,Right?
I would hope that I could teachthat without shaming someone
who made a different choice.
I think it's okay to teach thegold standard without saying
(10:55):
that anything other than thegold standard condemns someone
to hell, cause that's not what Ibelieve.
Steph (11:02):
Well, when you say teaching the gold standard, that
then makes me think that thegold standard for a couple is a
man and a wife.
And so then that brings me backto my issue.
Growing up in the church wasthe gold standard was taught of
a man and a woman is a marriageand the life you want.
(11:25):
And so there was nothingoutside of the gold standard
being taught.
And so where do I fit?
Why fit?
Because I don't have thosefeelings that I'm supposed to
have towards men.
So where's my message?
Beth (11:41):
Yeah, well, I don't think that gender difference is
required for a covenant marriage, so I would not want to
communicate that in terms ofeven even in terms of the gold
standard, right Like, I think itcan be two women and a
monogamous covenant marriage.
I think it'd be two men.
Do you preach on marriage?
Um, I cannot think of a time Ihave preached on marriage.
(12:04):
Yeah, I don't think so.
Steph (12:05):
I don't think so, or on relations like I think that's
something that we agree is likea gift from God is to be in
relation with people and to havea committed partner, and you're
taking from your ownexperiences and when I say you,
I mean a pastor, and all thepastors I was presented with
(12:30):
growing up were straight whitemen, and so their experiences
are gonna be with their wife,and so that is what their point.
So I think, without going outof your way, like I think you
would have to go out of your wayas a straight pastor to really
present what you truly think ofmarriage.
Beth (12:53):
I think that is so important because we we in, like
humanity in general, we tend tolike take our experience and
make it normative, like this isthe truth for everybody, and we
need to be reminded again andagain that that's not the case
and that happens in all sorts ofways not just sexuality, but
(13:14):
race, socioeconomics, like allof that.
So I think that that isimportant.
Steph (13:19):
Well, and it continues to be why it's so important to
have all different types ofpeople represented in all
different types of spaces, andwhich is why I feel so
disconnected from the church asa whole, because everything I
mean it's so awesome that youare a female pastor.
That's a big sadly, that's abig deal.
(13:40):
You know it shouldn't be a bigdeal, but that is a big deal
because that's not the norm.
Hopefully you can want to tryto convey, you know, a full
message that's outside of yourown world, but there's only so
far you can go without livingthose experiences and that's why
it's so important to have gaypastors, to have them share like
(14:02):
.
But we, just we don't.
We don't have the samerepresentation because of how
much the church has ostracizedthe different, Ostracized,
marginalized, scapegoated yeah,all the things.
So back to purity culturebecause, I think we kind of got
derailed a little bit and a lotof that we talked about will be
edited out because yeah, if youwant the behind the scenes,
(14:26):
that's a whole, nother episode.
But so back to purity culture.
So I grew up in the 90s whenthat was like a big, big deal,
did you get a purity ring?
No, but I did.
I did think about like askingmy dad like for one, which is so
gross and weird, and I think hewould have been like if you
want one, okay.
Like I think he would have beenlike okay, sure, Like cause my
(14:50):
parents were not like big onlike these messaging things.
It was just kind of like youknow, but I really ate up the
purity culture.
Let me tell you, I really waslike done, I can do this, I can
do this.
I was like, if I can put mymind to anything, it is this, so
(15:10):
.
So I was great at this.
I would say I was a gold starat this.
If you want to preach on it,I'd be like that's me, I'm right
here.
Pure, pure is the whitest thingyou've ever seen.
And I remember actually therewas a Bible study.
I can't write what it wascalled, but there was like this
Bible study for like multiplechurches, for young I think it
(15:31):
was men, I think it was youngpeople, I don't think it just
was women, but it was basicallyabout purity culture and was
about relationships and allthose things.
And I got my workbook and Ifilled that stuff out and I did,
I did good, I did good.
And I do think, though, likenow that I think back on it, I
do think that that that purityculture concept.
Beth (15:54):
I think the thing about purity culture is that it does
assume I mean, it's all italways assumed one one outcome
right, every girl is going tomarry a boy and she won't sleep
with that boy until she'smarried to that boy and they'll
have 2.7 children.
Steph (16:07):
Yes, and I was gonna have 2.4.
Beth (16:09):
2.4 and they'll have middle-class jobs, yes, and
retirement funds, and you know,the 401K, the college savings,
all that.
Steph (16:19):
I mean, that wasn't part of the study.
I have those things.
Beth (16:21):
Dang.
I think I just described mylife.
Steph (16:25):
You don't have this 0.7, you just have the two.
Beth (16:27):
Just the two, the old two.
Steph (16:29):
Maybe the 0.7 came from.
You had to travel so far forthem, so they they get a little
extra weight.
Yes, I think that's what purityculture focus on.
But what I took more from thepurity culture I feel like was
like not having sex beforemarriage, and so that really
limits what a relationship lookslike.
(16:51):
But it was something that, like,I focused on.
It's like I don't know what itwas, but it almost like it
almost like focus me in on likeokay, I have to find a guy, but
I can't sleep with him and I'mgonna find the right guy and I
gotta work towards this goal.
And so it almost gave me like agoal to focus on without
actually asking myself is thiswhat I want?
(17:11):
And so it distracted me fromthe reality of like.
I was so focused on this likeokay, purity culture thing that
I didn't even think wait, do Ieven want this?
Is this a life I want?
And so I think it reallydamaged, was damaging in the
sense that I didn't.
It didn't allow me to thinkoutside of, outside of that
(17:36):
small box it put me in.
Beth (17:38):
It did put you in, it put everybody in a box, because it
never asked the foundationalquestion, right yeah, of who do
you, who do you believe you arecreated to be?
Steph (17:46):
Yeah, like even exploring that, which I would love to see
that in a study, like exploringwho you are and who you are
attracted to, and without anykind of Because, do straight
people even like explore that?
Like, what does that look like?
Am I really attracted to thesepeople?
Or?
Beth (18:05):
you know so, and how do we find ways to explore that
without the undercurrent ofshame?
Yeah, you know exactly.
Oh, oh, no, I had a thoughtabout somebody who's the same
gender.
That means I'm not okay.
No, that's not what it means.
Yeah, exactly, that's amisunderstanding, a
misapplication of of scripture.
Steph (18:25):
And so I think to me I was just like okay, this is
something, check it off my list.
I am pure and I, you know, I'mnot going to.
I never was intentionally likeI'm not going to date in high
school, but I just was so busywith other things and I also was
just kind of like guys are likestupid, like why would I want
to spend like?
I honestly like I just couldn'tunderstand.
(18:46):
Like my friends are so fun andwe just had we're silly and had
fun together and I'm like, andthen anytime I'd spend time with
like a guy, I'm like this isboring.
Like how in the world are womenbest friends with these things?
Like I don't even understandthis.
Like that they want to be withlike I just didn't understand.
I honestly just didn'tunderstand it.
But I was like I guess I'llfind one, okay.
(19:08):
And I remember in high schoolwe would have like sleepovers me
and my friends, because youknow, that's what we do.
And I remember, like you do thatstandard thing where you ask
like what boys do you like?
Right, growing up in all myfriends had something to say and
I literally like no boy.
I was like, I was like I was uphere, I don't even like boys.
(19:30):
That's how pure I am.
And I made up a guy, did you?
I was just talking to myfriends yesterday about this and
they were laughing becausethey're like, I remember this.
I made up a guy named ChrisPoupila powers.
That was his name.
First of all, we had already,we had just watched Austin
powers, so I didn't get tooutside of the box with that and
(19:54):
my favorite guy name was Chris.
So you know that didn't.
So they knew from the outside.
Beth (19:57):
This was not a real person .
No no, they didn't.
No, no, they thought ChrisPoupila powers was a real person
.
Steph (20:04):
I'm Greek and so I made up I wanted to marry a Greek guy
, obviously, so that my dreamguy was a Greek guy and so his
name was Poupila.
Okay, it all like worked, yeah,it worked really well.
Okay.
And I friends might be just atad gullible, but one of them
really is the other ones kind ofcatch on pretty quick but he
(20:25):
was my crush for a very longtime and I can't remember how I,
where he was, why no one hadever met him.
But you know, this should havebeen a sign for all of us that I
was maybe not as straight as we, we uh, as Chris would want me
to be and, um, so, uh, it's justfunny to think back.
It's like, wow, yeah, cause Ijust I remember sitting there, I
(20:46):
can remember like sitting inthat circle, and I'm like, oh,
no, right, I don't even think ofa guy's.
I can't even think of a guy'sname, Like I don't even know, I
don't care.
And so I just like it would bemore fun to make someone up.
And so I did, and so you did,and I will say, like I air
quoted, dated um in college andyou know, as I got older, um,
(21:11):
but every time I would date I'dbe like, Ugh, this is, this is
boring, this is a lot of work.
And I'm like I really, after Istarted dating, I was, I still
was like how do women enjoyspending this much time with a
guy?
Yeah, and how did they enjoy?
Like how can this be their bestfriend?
Like I just didn't understandthat cut, so I just could not
(21:33):
fathom that concept.
And so eventually I did.
What the church said is you'regoing to find that guy one day
that you're going to fall inlove with and you're going to
have a family.
And so I really worked as muchas I could at finding somebody
and I was like I'm going to doit.
And I did online dating alittle bit.
I didn't find them.
Yeah, it failed me, it failedme.
Beth (21:59):
It's interesting how you're saying, like you can't,
you never could understand.
Like how could?
Why do women say, oh, like he'smy best friend?
It could be, because what'sinteresting to me about that is
that then, if you flip thetables right and you were
running like the church or theyouth group or whatever, and you
were using your experience asthe normative experience and you
(22:21):
were teaching everyone that ifyou don't feel this way, then
you're wrong, like do you seewhat I'm saying?
How that would be.
That is what the church did toyou and lots of folks, to you,
to me, to lots of folks that youknow.
They took that one experienceand made it normative.
And I think that if peoplethought about, oh yeah, if we
use Steph's experience and madethat our normative experience,
(22:42):
we could see how that wouldn'twork for everybody, but there's
something about, well, this iswhat works for most people you
know, so we use that as our norm, our baseline, our expectation,
and maybe it did work for a lotof the people who were in the
youth group that you didn't goto.
I mean, did any of the otherpeople that you grew up with in
(23:04):
church, are any of them gay?
I was not really friends withyouth.
Steph (23:07):
Really, in church I was friends.
My friends didn't go to mychurch.
I never really became friendswith a lot of like Christian
people.
I was and am a Christ follower,but there was like I don't know
if it was the same when youwere in school, but there was
like the Christians, yeah, yeah,and I wasn't the Christian.
(23:29):
I went to church.
I, you know, volunteered, I didthat, but I wasn't that
Christian.
I wasn't the Christian thatcomes to school and tells you
you're going to hell because youhaven't accepted Christ in your
life.
Like, those people were not myfriends and we had, there was, a
whole group of the Christiangirls and you know that just
wasn't my gym.
My friends are like actuallythree of us are queer in some
(23:54):
capacity that we've come out inthe last little bit and we were
the closest in our group and itwas just so interesting to
realize that, like we, there wassomething different about us,
but we didn't really know it atthe time and but we like kind of
glommed together and and I kindof always felt as an outsider
(24:15):
in Christian groups, like I hada.
Bible study in college with agroup of Christian girls and I
I'm a Christian, so I shouldwork with this group, but they
all like there was just acertain type of person Christian
that I'm not and I just was avery accepting and like not so
strict on rules Like we have to.
(24:36):
I mean, I follow, but Ifollowed the rules, but I still
like always kind of felt like anoutsider, like I wasn't good
enough and I didn't know why.
And in my Christian Bible studythere was one girl that I was
closest to because she was verymuch like me in the sense of
(24:56):
acceptance acceptance of otherpeople and I wasn't really close
to the others because there wasalways kind of this like wall
of like, yes, you have to bethis way, you have to be that
way and I'm like why yes?
And like why can't we talk aboutreal life?
And like how we feel, andthings like that.
Beth (25:14):
I think that you are describing an experience that is
not talked about often, butthat is very widespread and
widely shared, because and maybethis is on my mind, because I
think this is what my sermon isgoing to be this week but that
we we like to replace an actualrelationship with God with just
(25:37):
following rules.
Right, oh, I have these rules,I'm going to follow these rules,
and then everything will beokay and I'll be safe inside my
rules, and really that's notfully living at all.
It's not fully living period.
Steph (25:50):
And I think people like to point fingers at others for
not following the rules, becauseit's easier to do that than
really look at their own life,yes, and how they're living, yes
, which is really, reallyhurtful and harmful and is what
continues to happen just in theworld and politics.
And you know, pointing fingersat the others instead of at
yourself.
Right, because that's what Godcalls us to do, is be in
(26:13):
relationship with God and toexamine our stuff, our life.
Right, and I don't know whythat message continues to get
muddled.
Beth (26:23):
I think the Christian church in my lifetime has not
represented Jesus very wellbecause it because the the
broader church.
I'm not talking about mycongregation, I'm not really
even talking about mydenomination, so maybe I'm being
guilty of this because I'mpointing fingers instead of
looking at what I should beworking on.
But it has.
(26:43):
The Christians have been chosento be known for what we're
against, which is not at all themessage of the gospel.
Steph (26:51):
So I think that's something that is hard.
Now that I'm realized, you knowthat I'm a lesbian.
I think something that's reallyhard for me is is having a
large amount of people hate mebecause of how God made me, and
I think people have weaponizedthe Bible to say look what it
(27:12):
says.
So I guess my question for youis what does God say about
homosexuals and what does theBible say about homosexuals, and
is it the same thing?
Beth (27:22):
I don't think the Bible says anything about
homosexuality.
Let me explain what I mean.
First of all, let me just alsosay there's this new documentary
out called 1946, the movie, andsome really excellent research
is is done in the course of thatdocumentary about how we got
the word homosexual in one inthe one passage of the New
(27:44):
Testament where you see it,which is in 1st Timothy.
1st Timothy is a letter that'straditionally attributed to
someone named Paul and in Paul'sletters he often there are
other examples of him usingGreek words we don't know that
are not well attested in otherwritings of the first century
that are done in Greek, and thisword happens to be one of them.
And early in the 20th century,in 1946, I guess that's closer
(28:08):
to mid century the revisedstandard version came out and
they translated the word, thiscompound Greek word, to be
homosexual, and then it gotpicked up and put in other
translations, even though thecommittee that for the revised
standard version was wrestlingwith whether that was really the
right word and ultimatelydecided it was not the right
word and they removed it fromtheir translation but it had
(28:29):
already been picked up in inother translations.
So I don't think there'sanything in the Bible about
being queer, being LGBTQ.
What the Bible does say is thatGod is incredibly creative in
creation and that God creates alot of diversity.
(28:52):
So one one way that I thinkabout this and this is from the
work of a United Methodist namedSteve Harper, and I'll put a
link to his, to his book HolyLove, in case anybody wants to
pick it up but one of the thingshe points out is, like we say,
okay, well, god created nightand day.
That's what it says in Genesis.
(29:13):
There was day and there wasnight.
Right, but actually think abouta day there's pre-dawn and dawn
and midday, and then there'searly dusk and then there's dusk
and then there's full night.
Like our words might be nightand day, but also there is a
spectrum in night and day.
(29:34):
And so when God creates male andfemale, why do we think there's
not diversity in that?
And why do we think that God islimited to only making straight
people and what?
And also we act like as if thatserves some purpose, and I just
(29:56):
don't find that in the Bible.
So what I find is that there isa lot of good teaching and a
lot of good life experience thatsays we're made for
relationship.
We're not made to be on our own, so we live in community for
the most part.
Right, I mean, folks who arehermets are kind of a different
(30:17):
situation, but for the most parttrying not to make my own
experience normative here butfor the most part we're made to
live in community, we're made tolive in relationship and that
there are gifts from God thathappen that we can only
experience in relationship.
Does the Bible talk aboutmarriage?
Yes, and in many of the waysthat the Bible talks about
(30:39):
marriage, it does not talk aboutmarriage as we understand it
today and it does not talk aboutmarriage in a way that we would
even consider healthy.
The folks who are like marriageas one man and one woman are
relying on one or two passagesin the New Testament and they're
taking one or two verses andreally making them stand for the
(31:02):
whole thing, which is not.
I don't think that's reallyfair.
Steph (31:06):
Like does the same marriage is between one man and
one woman, and is that how it'ssaid in the Hebrew?
Beth (31:12):
No, I mean, I mean the world is created in Genesis 1,
and by Genesis chapter three, wehave a man married to two women
.
So if we want to say, well, oneman, one woman, because the
Garden of Eden was Adam and Eveand they only had each other,
(31:34):
like I guess that's one way tolook at it, but then by Genesis
chapter three, we have lamecmarried to two women.
So every everything in theHebrew scriptures is um, take it
with a grain of salt, yeah,it's a well, it's a different
culture, it's a patriarchalculture and God is working
within that patriarchal culture,patriarchal slave holding
(31:55):
culture.
Um, and it just isn't ourculture today, it's not our
context today, and I don't thinkGod wants to hold us back to
what that was.
I think God is continuing to beat work in us and through us.
There is a place where Jesus isasked about divorce and he is
(32:20):
not a fan of divorce, right, andhe talks about it in terms of a
man and a woman.
So people will turn that aroundto say, well, he didn't say
that it could be right, becausehe's speaking to a context in an
audience right.
Steph (32:35):
Was he speaking to an audience?
Yeah, speaking to an audienceand he's speaking to the vast
majority of the audience andwhat they need, what they, what
language they understood yeah,and he's being descriptive, not
proscriptive.
Beth (32:49):
He's not saying these are, you know, these are the bounds
of of.
Steph (32:53):
He's giving an example, yeah, yeah, which is kind of
going back to when a pastor isspeaking in a church.
You're speaking to thatcongregation where they're at
what their understanding is, andI think pastors tend to speak
the straight message becausethat's the vast of their
(33:14):
audience, but when that isalways the norm, I think that's
where we continue to get to thisissue of queer people not being
represented and not hearingthat God loves them and they can
have the same type of life thata straight person can, because
(33:35):
that message is not beingcommunicated Right and we're not
going to fix that today, nottoday.
But I will say I watched thatmovie 1946 and it was great.
Um, it's, it's really welldocumented and there was some it
doesn't tie up in a little bowat the end, you know, I it would
(33:57):
be wonderful, but society neverjust ties up in a little bow.
I think it's.
It's, um, definitely worthwatching and understanding,
because the more people theknowledge is power and the more
we have well researched,understood things, the more and
the more that people areunderstanding these things and
taking the time to understandthem.
(34:18):
Um, I think change can happenand I think more understanding
can happen.
I know I've changed in mylifetime.
Um, you know, I really spenttime throughout, you know, high
school, like when I met someonegay.
I'm like, why am I supposed tohate them?
Because that was the kind ofthe message and like the
messaging.
Like there was, uh, you knowthere was definitely a
(34:42):
generation where it was okay tocall someone gay as an insult,
right you?
know, I never.
I never thought that that wasokay, like that was never part
of my like verbiage but um wewere um, where it was just like
the norm to say that.
And so, you know, I spent a lotof time just like coming around
and realizing, no, like I acceptthese people, these are people
(35:05):
and I love these people and Iwant them to have the same life
that I'm afforded.
And so, you know, I spent allthis time accepting other people
so that, when I realized I wasgay, I was able to accept myself
so much easier than I thinksome others are able to.
Beth (35:21):
because, you know, we society is telling us this
straight message, because thevast majority of people are
straight yeah, which which alsocomes up in that in that
documentary in 1946, because, um, one of the one of the main
folks is really vulnerable andhonest about how he really can't
open himself up to intimacybecause he's really not sure
(35:42):
that the way he's made toexperience intimacy is okay with
God.
Like he's really struggling, um, and I appreciated his
vulnerability in that.
Steph (35:51):
Yeah, I mean it's a heartbreaking moment because
you're like, I see how you gotto this place and and I'm sorry,
the church messed you up.
Yeah, the church really deprivedhim of a life, of a life of a
full life that we're allafforded by God, and yet society
is telling us no, like God isgiving you this gift and is
(36:14):
allowing this, but society istelling you no.
I feel like I was lookingthrough straight lenses, you
know, before my life, and nowI'm looking through gay lenses,
um, or conscious gay lenses.
I guess it always was a gaylens, but again, I just wasn't
conscious of it.
I can, I just see stuff so muchdifferently now, like I would
have been heartbroken by that,by that even you know before.
(36:38):
But I can totally just feelthat now.
I can feel what that feels likeand and I just I even love the
story, how the, how the moviebegins where it's.
It's a straight woman that'sreally on this quest to and, uh,
to find what the Bible saysabout homosexuality and how that
all came about.
Beth (36:57):
It's not even like her primary, it's not her main job,
it's not even like her primaryarea of study.
She just was curious about it,you know, and just really dug
into it and started teaching it.
And you know, when you teachsomething you learn more and
then you, oh, how about theseother questions?
And builds her curiosity andit's really really remarkable.
I mean digging into thearchives of how the revised
(37:19):
standard version committee wasworking and reading their letter
letters and it's really, it'sreally well done.
So, as we've said, it's been,uh, it's been about a year since
you discovered that you are alesbian.
Do you see your lifedifferently now?
Steph (37:37):
Really has opened up a whole new world of possibilities
that I had never, ever, everconsidered, because I always
considered a man and I was likeI'm not super interested in that
.
So I guess if I find them, I'llfind them, If not, whatever.
And so I never consideredmyself married to a woman Like I
, cause that was not a positive,that was not something that I
(37:57):
even, you know, ever thoughtabout.
And so now the possibility isthere and and it's strange,
cause I was like I'm cool beingsingle, but now I'm like I don't
know, I kind of think I want tobe married, Like I am way more
excited about the concept ofbeing married to a woman than I
ever was about me married to aman.
(38:17):
I was like that tracks right, Iwas like yeah.
I, you know, and when I thinkabout it I'm like I really have
only dated one person reallylike, the more I think about it.
Beth (38:29):
It's like when I dated those guys.
Steph (38:30):
That wasn't the right thing.
So I well, I don't even like.
The more I think about, themore I'm like I didn't date them
.
So I've dated one woman and weactually, um, we broke up a
month ago.
We're we're still friends andum, it was, you know, I think,
the right, the right thing forus and hopefully we'll both find
(38:54):
someone else.
But I don't know.
It's just a weird thing.
When I had already kind of likebeen like I'm cool being this
and now it's like wait, I'm not,it's like wait, I had never
considered this before and I'mkind of excited about what that
might look like.
So I'm assuming I feel likegirls feel, probably in high
school, when they start to likeget excited about guys, like I'm
(39:16):
assuming that's the feeling.
I never had that feeling, so Idon't know.
Um, but when, when girls startto realize the possibility of
like love and companionship andwhat that looks like, yeah, so
I'm assuming that's what thefeeling is and that's kind of
like cool.
But there is a part of me thatI've started to randomly get
anxiety about being gay, notabout not being okay with it,
(39:41):
but with society not being okaywith it, but just kind of
heartbreaking when you thinkabout that's not something
straight people have to gothrough.
And like the excitement of, likepossibility of finding love and
finding your person, like as astraight person realizing just
ending there, the excitement ofit, yeah, yeah.
(40:01):
But then as as a queer person,realizing the excitement that
all of these things, but thenthe thing that stops you and you
realize like there willprobably be people that will not
want me to have the happinessand not allow me to have the
happiness and will stand in theway of that, politically,
(40:23):
potentially to my face.
And so it's a harsh reality torealize I will probably never be
afforded the same ability tolove as a straight person in
society, that there will alwaysbe some kind of hush tones about
my love but not about thestraight couples love, and I
(40:45):
can't change that.
All I can do is live my life.
But the but there is anxietyabout the reality of others.
Beth (40:52):
Yeah, and and there are judgments in there and there
that there is the the likelihoodthat there will be someone at
some point who is coarse andcruel, and it just feels like
we're going backwards in this.
You know, maybe because we livein Florida.
But yeah, yeah, I mean, Ireally want to, I really want to
(41:18):
say like I I don't know, youknow it's, we're progressing,
we're going to get to a pointwhere that's not going to be an
issue, but I don't feel likethat's the truth.
I think that this is going to.
I understand your anxiety.
So, steph, what's the answer?
Why didn't you know you were alesbian?
Steph (41:36):
I don't think there was enough representation of an
alternative to straight.
It's not an alternative choice,like I didn't choose, but that
there is a spectrum and it's notjust man and wife.
Yeah, and something myex-girlfriend she like if you
(42:03):
know her, you know she's gay,like that's a big part of her
and when before I realized I wasgay, I was kind of like why is
she always like so harping onbeing gay, like why she's like
the only gay person on her joband like why is that?
Like you know that's just apart of you.
But and I asked her about itand she's like because people
(42:23):
need representation, they needto see, like, what gay people
are and that they're around,because there's plenty of gay
people that you don't even knoware gay.
Yeah, yeah, and I think youshould be able to choose how you
want to live your life.
So I don't think every gayperson needs to represent gay to
the world.
But there's power inrepresentation, there's power in
(42:47):
seeing, like a lovingrelationship of two women or two
men.
Yes, I do think there's aresponsibility.
I feel a responsibility asbeing gay, to represent it in a
healthy, good way.
What that looks like, I don'tknow.
(43:08):
Like I'm very new to this.
I do see the importance of likemaking sure that the next
generation doesn't have to waituntil they're 36 to realize
they're a lesbian.
At the end of each episode, weend with questions for
reflection.
These are questions based ontoday show that Beth will read
and leave a little pause betweenfor you to answer to yourself,
(43:28):
or you can find them in ourdescription.
Beth (43:31):
Number one do you think people are born queer?
Number two how have church andsociety influenced your
understanding of who you are?
Number three would the you of10 years ago recognize yourself
today?
What might surprise you?
And number four do you carewhat the Bible says about
(43:52):
homosexuality?
Why, or why not this?
Steph (43:55):
has been the Discovering Arts Gars podcast.
Thank you for joining us.
Welcome to the Discovering our scars podcast
Beth (00:06):
Where we share personal experiences so we can learn from
each other.
Steph (00:09):
Our mission is to talk about things you might relate to
but that you don't heardiscussed in other places.
Beth (00:13):
Our hope is that you're encouraged to have honest
conversations with people inyour own life.
I'm Beth and I'm Steph.
Steph (00:19):
On today's show, we're going to have an honest
conversation titled "Why Didn'tI Know I
Beth (00:24):
Then we will share a slice of life and the show will close
with questions for reflection,where we will invite you to
reflect on the conversation inyour own life.
Okay, that was a little weird.
We did our intro backwards.
It was a little weird.
152 episodes into this thing tosay your part instead of mine.
Steph (00:41):
I was really trying so hard not to say anything and
then you did so I was like don'tsay anything, don't say
anything, just be cool, just becool.
So we did reverse the introtoday so that Beth didn't have
to say she was a lesbian.
Beth (00:55):
to clarify Do you want to confuse my husband?
It is straight.
Steph (00:59):
Nothing discovered there.
But last year I did discoverthat I'm a lesbian and we talked
about that in our how PrideBecame Personal episode last
June.
It was very timely for PrideMonth.
I certainly found out I was alesbian in such a good timing,
let's say, because I was fulllesbian in June, my first Pride
(01:21):
Month.
I'm more excited this month forPride, this year for Pride
Month because I've been alesbian longer now, so I have
more Pride.
Beth (01:33):
Pride is even more personal this year.
Steph (01:36):
What I've learned over this year is that Pride Month is
actually Pride Year.
You actually are gay all year,it's not just the month.
I did realize that.
Beth (01:46):
You discovered this about yourself when you were 36.
Did it just happen when youturned 36?
Was it like you flipped aswitch, or do you think maybe
actually for all of the 36 years?
Steph (02:01):
I was actually thinking about when, because I think my
mom asked me the other day, whatday did you?
What's the anniversary of yourealizing you were gay?
And I was like I don't know.
But then I realized it wasactually the night my birthday
of last year.
So I couldn't sleep that wholeday, that whole night and I'm a
good sleeper, but it was thatnight I couldn't sleep at all
(02:23):
and it was that was, and I wasbasically I had developed a
friendship with a lesbian friendof mine in January and I was
like obsessively thinking abouther and finally realized, I
think on my birthday, that oh no, I like her different than a
friend, and so I would say mybirthday is the actual
(02:43):
anniversary of me realizing Iwas gay.
Wow, yeah, because I remembergoing on, I was kind of like
obsessing about her, not in alike crazy way, but just like
thinking about her a lot.
We were texting and I had onlyseen her at she was working at
my vet's office and I had onlyseen her at my vet's office in
scrubs, which you know I thoughtshe was cute.
(03:05):
But then I looked up herFacebook on my birthday when I
couldn't sleep that night andlike I saw pictures of her like
not in her scrubs, and I waslike oh, wow, okay.
And I saw that she had tattoosand I was like, oh goodness, so
I learned I liked girls withtattoos, yeah, and I was going
to like Facebook friend her butthen I was like no, because it's
(03:26):
my birthday and that would beweird, cause you know, people
like say happy birthday and Ididn't want I was, didn't want
her to be like why is hefriending me on her birthday at
middle of the night.
So I was like no, don't do it,wait a couple days.
So I did like that, I wentthrough my head way to play it
cool, I played it cool, I playedit cool.
Beth (03:41):
But do you think that when you were 35, you were a lesbian
?
Steph (03:44):
I think I was born a lesbian and I just didn't know
it.
And I have actually spent thisyear trying to figure out like
why didn't I know?
People have asked me.
It's not like I haven't, it'snot like people haven't wondered
and like brought it up to mebefore.
Even my mom, when I was in my20s, she asked me if I was a
(04:06):
lesbian and I was like no, butthanks for the question.
Great, but I never was likeoffended when I wasn't, like
yeah, overly offended whenpeople asked me because it was
like easy, it was an easy no,like I think I would have been
really upset if someone asked meand I was and I was hiding it,
but I I did take the time tolike well, am I?
(04:28):
I mean, I'm not into girls, soI guess I'm not and I would like
think about it and I'd be like.
You know, I always heardstories when people came out and
they said, oh, I knew since Iwas five.
And I was like well, I suredidn't know and I haven't like.
So you know, it's, it's.
It's a little confusing becauseI just assumed I would have
(04:48):
those same experiences where Iwould just know from a young age
and I would be hiding it orwhatever.
And so I didn't.
I didn't have those experiences.
But the more I think about it,the more I realize I grew up in
the, the Unite Methodist Churchand I I really enjoyed that.
(05:09):
Like I, we went to church everyweek.
It was something that wasimportant to my family and I
didn't have any issues with it,like there was.
No, there was a couple ofthings I didn't like doing.
Like my mom tried to put me inchoir and I absolutely hated
that.
I'm not someone that likes tosing or be in front of people,
so don't, don't put me in there.
Beth (05:28):
But also also a lot of small talk happens at choir, and
you are not a small talk person, no.
Steph (05:33):
And I didn't like youth group and my mom kept trying to
push me into youth group and Iwas like, no, I don't want to be
around young people.
I was one, but I was, I was anold young person.
I was never like, when theylike would like play with like I
don't know, like they just dosilly things and.
I'm just like why?
Why are we doing this Like Iwas?
never, that person.
(05:54):
That was never a good youth,but overall I really enjoyed
going to church and I wasinvolved with the church.
I did a lot of video productionfor the church in high school
and worked with the, thedirector of all the technology
in the church, and I ran sound alot and I did graphics and so I
(06:16):
was really involved.
And I don't ever remember inchurch the topic of being gay
being brought up.
I don't remember that conceptbeing discussed in any way.
So I would say I would thinksome churches would talk about
it in a bad thing, like likethis is wrong.
Beth (06:35):
This is the same In a negative way yeah.
Steph (06:36):
But I don't remember it ever really being brought up.
The only thing I ever rememberis being presented the straight
life Like this is life One dayyou will meet a man and you will
marry that man and you couldhave a child with that man.
And that was what was presented.
So I really wasn't even present.
(06:57):
Like I knew what gay peoplewere?
Um, I had a gay math teacher inmiddle school and it was talked
about in hush tones, um, and Iremember, like he's my favorite
teacher, like what, what?
Why are we talking about it?
Like this?
Like, first of all, why does itmatter?
And, second of all, like youknow, he's a great teacher.
Beth (07:17):
So yeah, yeah.
Steph (07:19):
Um, and then I started meeting people that um were gay
and was like I like this person.
Why is this?
Why is this an issue?
Beth (07:27):
Um, so, even like in terms of society, or like the
community that you grew up in,it was, it was present, but
perceived in a negative way.
Do you think yeah?
Steph (07:36):
I mean, every time that being gay was brought up it was
like hush tones or it's like,and actually somebody that I
worked with closely at thechurch was gay.
Yeah.
Beth (07:46):
Is gay.
Steph (07:48):
And I found that out when I was in like ninth grade I
think, and I found out that hewas gay and, um, that his
roommate was his partner, yeah,yeah.
And I was like, oh my gosh,cause I was a super huge fan of
this person.
I thought they were a greatperson, like I just enjoyed
working with them and I was like, okay, great.
And so early on I knew gaypeople that I, you know, liked
(08:12):
before I knew, I liked after Iknew, and so it really was an
issue, but in the people thatthe church knew that this person
was gay, but it was neverdiscussed, it was never like
celebrated, it was never broughtup.
And there were gay people inthat church besides him that I
learned about also as time wenton, and but it was always like
(08:35):
we know and they can be here.
Beth (08:38):
But if that person had not been gay, if if he were
straight and he were to beengaged and then married, it
would have been celebrated likein an unbelievable way, right.
Everybody would have beentalking about it, everybody
would have been excited andhappy about it.
Steph (08:55):
Yeah, Because when it was the gay people in the church,
it was like, cause, I feel likethere was also like a lesbian
couple that was married, but Ididn't know it for the longest
time and then, like somebodykind of like hushed to and
talked about it.
I was like, oh, cool, great.
But it was never like this isso just like it would like a
straight couple, like, oh, thisis exciting, they're together,
oh, great.
(09:15):
It was just like, oh, they're,they're together.
Yeah, you know, you know.
And it just was always likelike a hushed tone kind of thing
, not like we talk about with astraight couple, you know.
And so it wasn't that it waspresented to me that like being
gay was bad in the church, butit just wasn't presented to me
in the same way that beingstraight was like.
(09:36):
Being straight was presented asthis is the norm, this is right
, this is how life is and thereare gay people.
Beth (09:44):
But we whisper about them, right, and so I think that was
sexuality in general handledwell, because I think often the
church doesn't handle it welland particularly, you know, in
the nineties and the eighties.
In the nineties, really, purityculture was such a big deal
that I don't know that even that, even being heterosexual was,
was handled all that well.
So I think that the theteaching point for me is that
(10:09):
maybe the easiest, safest thingis to say that sex is a gift
from God, because it is.
I don't think I've ever saidthe word orgasm on the podcast.
Let me just say, like, orgasmsare a gift from God, and so
that's going to be the title ofthe subject.
That's the sound bite.
But so the safest in terms ofteaching it right, the safest
thing is to say experiencingthat within the, within the
(10:33):
boundaries of a monogamouscovenant marriage.
That's like the gold standard,Right?
I would hope that I could teachthat without shaming someone
who made a different choice.
I think it's okay to teach thegold standard without saying
(10:55):
that anything other than thegold standard condemns someone
to hell, cause that's not what Ibelieve.
Steph (11:02):
Well, when you say teaching the gold standard, that
then makes me think that thegold standard for a couple is a
man and a wife.
And so then that brings me backto my issue.
Growing up in the church wasthe gold standard was taught of
a man and a woman is a marriageand the life you want.
(11:25):
And so there was nothingoutside of the gold standard
being taught.
And so where do I fit?
Why fit?
Because I don't have thosefeelings that I'm supposed to
have towards men.
So where's my message?
Beth (11:41):
Yeah, well, I don't think that gender difference is
required for a covenant marriage, so I would not want to
communicate that in terms ofeven even in terms of the gold
standard, right Like, I think itcan be two women and a
monogamous covenant marriage.
I think it'd be two men.
Do you preach on marriage?
Um, I cannot think of a time Ihave preached on marriage.
(12:04):
Yeah, I don't think so.
Steph (12:05):
I don't think so, or on relations like I think that's
something that we agree is likea gift from God is to be in
relation with people and to havea committed partner, and you're
taking from your ownexperiences and when I say you,
I mean a pastor, and all thepastors I was presented with
(12:30):
growing up were straight whitemen, and so their experiences
are gonna be with their wife,and so that is what their point.
So I think, without going outof your way, like I think you
would have to go out of your wayas a straight pastor to really
present what you truly think ofmarriage.
Beth (12:53):
I think that is so important because we we in, like
humanity in general, we tend tolike take our experience and
make it normative, like this isthe truth for everybody, and we
need to be reminded again andagain that that's not the case
and that happens in all sorts ofways not just sexuality, but
(13:14):
race, socioeconomics, like allof that.
So I think that that isimportant.
Steph (13:19):
Well, and it continues to be why it's so important to
have all different types ofpeople represented in all
different types of spaces, andwhich is why I feel so
disconnected from the church asa whole, because everything I
mean it's so awesome that youare a female pastor.
That's a big sadly, that's abig deal.
(13:40):
You know it shouldn't be a bigdeal, but that is a big deal
because that's not the norm.
Hopefully you can want to tryto convey, you know, a full
message that's outside of yourown world, but there's only so
far you can go without livingthose experiences and that's why
it's so important to have gaypastors, to have them share like
(14:02):
.
But we, just we don't.
We don't have the samerepresentation because of how
much the church has ostracizedthe different, Ostracized,
marginalized, scapegoated yeah,all the things.
So back to purity culturebecause, I think we kind of got
derailed a little bit and a lotof that we talked about will be
edited out because yeah, if youwant the behind the scenes,
(14:26):
that's a whole, nother episode.
But so back to purity culture.
So I grew up in the 90s whenthat was like a big, big deal,
did you get a purity ring?
No, but I did.
I did think about like askingmy dad like for one, which is so
gross and weird, and I think hewould have been like if you
want one, okay.
Like I think he would have beenlike okay, sure, Like cause my
(14:50):
parents were not like big onlike these messaging things.
It was just kind of like youknow, but I really ate up the
purity culture.
Let me tell you, I really waslike done, I can do this, I can
do this.
I was like, if I can put mymind to anything, it is this, so
(15:10):
.
So I was great at this.
I would say I was a gold starat this.
If you want to preach on it,I'd be like that's me, I'm right
here.
Pure, pure is the whitest thingyou've ever seen.
And I remember actually therewas a Bible study.
I can't write what it wascalled, but there was like this
Bible study for like multiplechurches, for young I think it
(15:31):
was men, I think it was youngpeople, I don't think it just
was women, but it was basicallyabout purity culture and was
about relationships and allthose things.
And I got my workbook and Ifilled that stuff out and I did,
I did good, I did good.
And I do think, though, likenow that I think back on it, I
do think that that that purityculture concept.
Beth (15:54):
I think the thing about purity culture is that it does
assume I mean, it's all italways assumed one one outcome
right, every girl is going tomarry a boy and she won't sleep
with that boy until she'smarried to that boy and they'll
have 2.7 children.
Steph (16:07):
Yes, and I was gonna have 2.4.
Beth (16:09):
2.4 and they'll have middle-class jobs, yes, and
retirement funds, and you know,the 401K, the college savings,
all that.
Steph (16:19):
I mean, that wasn't part of the study.
I have those things.
Beth (16:21):
Dang.
I think I just described mylife.
Steph (16:25):
You don't have this 0.7, you just have the two.
Beth (16:27):
Just the two, the old two.
Steph (16:29):
Maybe the 0.7 came from.
You had to travel so far forthem, so they they get a little
extra weight.
Yes, I think that's what purityculture focus on.
But what I took more from thepurity culture I feel like was
like not having sex beforemarriage, and so that really
limits what a relationship lookslike.
(16:51):
But it was something that, like,I focused on.
It's like I don't know what itwas, but it almost like it
almost like focus me in on likeokay, I have to find a guy, but
I can't sleep with him and I'mgonna find the right guy and I
gotta work towards this goal.
And so it almost gave me like agoal to focus on without
actually asking myself is thiswhat I want?
(17:11):
And so it distracted me fromthe reality of like.
I was so focused on this likeokay, purity culture thing that
I didn't even think wait, do Ieven want this?
Is this a life I want?
And so I think it reallydamaged, was damaging in the
sense that I didn't.
It didn't allow me to thinkoutside of, outside of that
(17:36):
small box it put me in.
Beth (17:38):
It did put you in, it put everybody in a box, because it
never asked the foundationalquestion, right yeah, of who do
you, who do you believe you arecreated to be?
Steph (17:46):
Yeah, like even exploring that, which I would love to see
that in a study, like exploringwho you are and who you are
attracted to, and without anykind of Because, do straight
people even like explore that?
Like, what does that look like?
Am I really attracted to thesepeople?
Or?
Beth (18:05):
you know so, and how do we find ways to explore that
without the undercurrent ofshame?
Yeah, you know exactly.
Oh, oh, no, I had a thoughtabout somebody who's the same
gender.
That means I'm not okay.
No, that's not what it means.
Yeah, exactly, that's amisunderstanding, a
misapplication of of scripture.
Steph (18:25):
And so I think to me I was just like okay, this is
something, check it off my list.
I am pure and I, you know, I'mnot going to.
I never was intentionally likeI'm not going to date in high
school, but I just was so busywith other things and I also was
just kind of like guys are likestupid, like why would I want
to spend like?
I honestly like I just couldn'tunderstand.
(18:46):
Like my friends are so fun andwe just had we're silly and had
fun together and I'm like, andthen anytime I'd spend time with
like a guy, I'm like this isboring.
Like how in the world are womenbest friends with these things?
Like I don't even understandthis.
Like that they want to be withlike I just didn't understand.
I honestly just didn'tunderstand it.
But I was like I guess I'llfind one, okay.
(19:08):
And I remember in high schoolwe would have like sleepovers me
and my friends, because youknow, that's what we do.
And I remember, like you do thatstandard thing where you ask
like what boys do you like?
Right, growing up in all myfriends had something to say and
I literally like no boy.
I was like, I was like I was uphere, I don't even like boys.
(19:30):
That's how pure I am.
And I made up a guy, did you?
I was just talking to myfriends yesterday about this and
they were laughing becausethey're like, I remember this.
I made up a guy named ChrisPoupila powers.
That was his name.
First of all, we had already,we had just watched Austin
powers, so I didn't get tooutside of the box with that and
(19:54):
my favorite guy name was Chris.
So you know that didn't.
So they knew from the outside.
Beth (19:57):
This was not a real person .
No no, they didn't.
No, no, they thought ChrisPoupila powers was a real person
.
Steph (20:04):
I'm Greek and so I made up I wanted to marry a Greek guy
, obviously, so that my dreamguy was a Greek guy and so his
name was Poupila.
Okay, it all like worked, yeah,it worked really well.
Okay.
And I friends might be just atad gullible, but one of them
really is the other ones kind ofcatch on pretty quick but he
(20:25):
was my crush for a very longtime and I can't remember how I,
where he was, why no one hadever met him.
But you know, this should havebeen a sign for all of us that I
was maybe not as straight as we, we uh, as Chris would want me
to be and, um, so, uh, it's justfunny to think back.
It's like, wow, yeah, cause Ijust I remember sitting there, I
(20:46):
can remember like sitting inthat circle, and I'm like, oh,
no, right, I don't even think ofa guy's.
I can't even think of a guy'sname, Like I don't even know, I
don't care.
And so I just like it would bemore fun to make someone up.
And so I did, and so you did,and I will say, like I air
quoted, dated um in college andyou know, as I got older, um,
(21:11):
but every time I would date I'dbe like, Ugh, this is, this is
boring, this is a lot of work.
And I'm like I really, after Istarted dating, I was, I still
was like how do women enjoyspending this much time with a
guy?
Yeah, and how did they enjoy?
Like how can this be their bestfriend?
Like I just didn't understandthat cut, so I just could not
(21:33):
fathom that concept.
And so eventually I did.
What the church said is you'regoing to find that guy one day
that you're going to fall inlove with and you're going to
have a family.
And so I really worked as muchas I could at finding somebody
and I was like I'm going to doit.
And I did online dating alittle bit.
I didn't find them.
Yeah, it failed me, it failedme.
Beth (21:59):
It's interesting how you're saying, like you can't,
you never could understand.
Like how could?
Why do women say, oh, like he'smy best friend?
It could be, because what'sinteresting to me about that is
that then, if you flip thetables right and you were
running like the church or theyouth group or whatever, and you
were using your experience asthe normative experience and you
(22:21):
were teaching everyone that ifyou don't feel this way, then
you're wrong, like do you seewhat I'm saying?
How that would be.
That is what the church did toyou and lots of folks, to you,
to me, to lots of folks that youknow.
They took that one experienceand made it normative.
And I think that if peoplethought about, oh yeah, if we
use Steph's experience and madethat our normative experience,
(22:42):
we could see how that wouldn'twork for everybody, but there's
something about, well, this iswhat works for most people you
know, so we use that as our norm, our baseline, our expectation,
and maybe it did work for a lotof the people who were in the
youth group that you didn't goto.
I mean, did any of the otherpeople that you grew up with in
(23:04):
church, are any of them gay?
I was not really friends withyouth.
Steph (23:07):
Really, in church I was friends.
My friends didn't go to mychurch.
I never really became friendswith a lot of like Christian
people.
I was and am a Christ follower,but there was like I don't know
if it was the same when youwere in school, but there was
like the Christians, yeah, yeah,and I wasn't the Christian.
(23:29):
I went to church.
I, you know, volunteered, I didthat, but I wasn't that
Christian.
I wasn't the Christian thatcomes to school and tells you
you're going to hell because youhaven't accepted Christ in your
life.
Like, those people were not myfriends and we had, there was, a
whole group of the Christiangirls and you know that just
wasn't my gym.
My friends are like actuallythree of us are queer in some
(23:54):
capacity that we've come out inthe last little bit and we were
the closest in our group and itwas just so interesting to
realize that, like we, there wassomething different about us,
but we didn't really know it atthe time and but we like kind of
glommed together and and I kindof always felt as an outsider
(24:15):
in Christian groups, like I hada.
Bible study in college with agroup of Christian girls and I
I'm a Christian, so I shouldwork with this group, but they
all like there was just acertain type of person Christian
that I'm not and I just was avery accepting and like not so
strict on rules Like we have to.
(24:36):
I mean, I follow, but Ifollowed the rules, but I still
like always kind of felt like anoutsider, like I wasn't good
enough and I didn't know why.
And in my Christian Bible studythere was one girl that I was
closest to because she was verymuch like me in the sense of
(24:56):
acceptance acceptance of otherpeople and I wasn't really close
to the others because there wasalways kind of this like wall
of like, yes, you have to bethis way, you have to be that
way and I'm like why yes?
And like why can't we talk aboutreal life?
And like how we feel, andthings like that.
Beth (25:14):
I think that you are describing an experience that is
not talked about often, butthat is very widespread and
widely shared, because and maybethis is on my mind, because I
think this is what my sermon isgoing to be this week but that
we we like to replace an actualrelationship with God with just
(25:37):
following rules.
Right, oh, I have these rules,I'm going to follow these rules,
and then everything will beokay and I'll be safe inside my
rules, and really that's notfully living at all.
It's not fully living period.
Steph (25:50):
And I think people like to point fingers at others for
not following the rules, becauseit's easier to do that than
really look at their own life,yes, and how they're living, yes
, which is really, reallyhurtful and harmful and is what
continues to happen just in theworld and politics.
And you know, pointing fingersat the others instead of at
yourself.
Right, because that's what Godcalls us to do, is be in
(26:13):
relationship with God and toexamine our stuff, our life.
Right, and I don't know whythat message continues to get
muddled.
Beth (26:23):
I think the Christian church in my lifetime has not
represented Jesus very wellbecause it because the the
broader church.
I'm not talking about mycongregation, I'm not really
even talking about mydenomination, so maybe I'm being
guilty of this because I'mpointing fingers instead of
looking at what I should beworking on.
But it has.
(26:43):
The Christians have been chosento be known for what we're
against, which is not at all themessage of the gospel.
Steph (26:51):
So I think that's something that is hard.
Now that I'm realized, you knowthat I'm a lesbian.
I think something that's reallyhard for me is is having a
large amount of people hate mebecause of how God made me, and
I think people have weaponizedthe Bible to say look what it
(27:12):
says.
So I guess my question for youis what does God say about
homosexuals and what does theBible say about homosexuals, and
is it the same thing?
Beth (27:22):
I don't think the Bible says anything about
homosexuality.
Let me explain what I mean.
First of all, let me just alsosay there's this new documentary
out called 1946, the movie, andsome really excellent research
is is done in the course of thatdocumentary about how we got
the word homosexual in one inthe one passage of the New
(27:44):
Testament where you see it,which is in 1st Timothy.
1st Timothy is a letter that'straditionally attributed to
someone named Paul and in Paul'sletters he often there are
other examples of him usingGreek words we don't know that
are not well attested in otherwritings of the first century
that are done in Greek, and thisword happens to be one of them.
And early in the 20th century,in 1946, I guess that's closer
(28:08):
to mid century the revisedstandard version came out and
they translated the word, thiscompound Greek word, to be
homosexual, and then it gotpicked up and put in other
translations, even though thecommittee that for the revised
standard version was wrestlingwith whether that was really the
right word and ultimatelydecided it was not the right
word and they removed it fromtheir translation but it had
(28:29):
already been picked up in inother translations.
So I don't think there'sanything in the Bible about
being queer, being LGBTQ.
What the Bible does say is thatGod is incredibly creative in
creation and that God creates alot of diversity.
(28:52):
So one one way that I thinkabout this and this is from the
work of a United Methodist namedSteve Harper, and I'll put a
link to his, to his book HolyLove, in case anybody wants to
pick it up but one of the thingshe points out is, like we say,
okay, well, god created nightand day.
That's what it says in Genesis.
(29:13):
There was day and there wasnight.
Right, but actually think abouta day there's pre-dawn and dawn
and midday, and then there'searly dusk and then there's dusk
and then there's full night.
Like our words might be nightand day, but also there is a
spectrum in night and day.
(29:34):
And so when God creates male andfemale, why do we think there's
not diversity in that?
And why do we think that God islimited to only making straight
people and what?
And also we act like as if thatserves some purpose, and I just
(29:56):
don't find that in the Bible.
So what I find is that there isa lot of good teaching and a
lot of good life experience thatsays we're made for
relationship.
We're not made to be on our own, so we live in community for
the most part.
Right, I mean, folks who arehermets are kind of a different
(30:17):
situation, but for the most parttrying not to make my own
experience normative here butfor the most part we're made to
live in community, we're made tolive in relationship and that
there are gifts from God thathappen that we can only
experience in relationship.
Does the Bible talk aboutmarriage?
Yes, and in many of the waysthat the Bible talks about
(30:39):
marriage, it does not talk aboutmarriage as we understand it
today and it does not talk aboutmarriage in a way that we would
even consider healthy.
The folks who are like marriageas one man and one woman are
relying on one or two passagesin the New Testament and they're
taking one or two verses andreally making them stand for the
(31:02):
whole thing, which is not.
I don't think that's reallyfair.
Steph (31:06):
Like does the same marriage is between one man and
one woman, and is that how it'ssaid in the Hebrew?
Beth (31:12):
No, I mean, I mean the world is created in Genesis 1,
and by Genesis chapter three, wehave a man married to two women
.
So if we want to say, well, oneman, one woman, because the
Garden of Eden was Adam and Eveand they only had each other,
(31:34):
like I guess that's one way tolook at it, but then by Genesis
chapter three, we have lamecmarried to two women.
So every everything in theHebrew scriptures is um, take it
with a grain of salt, yeah,it's a well, it's a different
culture, it's a patriarchalculture and God is working
within that patriarchal culture,patriarchal slave holding
(31:55):
culture.
Um, and it just isn't ourculture today, it's not our
context today, and I don't thinkGod wants to hold us back to
what that was.
I think God is continuing to beat work in us and through us.
There is a place where Jesus isasked about divorce and he is
(32:20):
not a fan of divorce, right, andhe talks about it in terms of a
man and a woman.
So people will turn that aroundto say, well, he didn't say
that it could be right, becausehe's speaking to a context in an
audience right.
Steph (32:35):
Was he speaking to an audience?
Yeah, speaking to an audienceand he's speaking to the vast
majority of the audience andwhat they need, what they, what
language they understood yeah,and he's being descriptive, not
proscriptive.
Beth (32:49):
He's not saying these are, you know, these are the bounds
of of.
Steph (32:53):
He's giving an example, yeah, yeah, which is kind of
going back to when a pastor isspeaking in a church.
You're speaking to thatcongregation where they're at
what their understanding is, andI think pastors tend to speak
the straight message becausethat's the vast of their
(33:14):
audience, but when that isalways the norm, I think that's
where we continue to get to thisissue of queer people not being
represented and not hearingthat God loves them and they can
have the same type of life thata straight person can, because
(33:35):
that message is not beingcommunicated Right and we're not
going to fix that today, nottoday.
But I will say I watched thatmovie 1946 and it was great.
Um, it's, it's really welldocumented and there was some it
doesn't tie up in a little bowat the end, you know, I it would
(33:57):
be wonderful, but society neverjust ties up in a little bow.
I think it's.
It's, um, definitely worthwatching and understanding,
because the more people theknowledge is power and the more
we have well researched,understood things, the more and
the more that people areunderstanding these things and
taking the time to understandthem.
(34:18):
Um, I think change can happenand I think more understanding
can happen.
I know I've changed in mylifetime.
Um, you know, I really spenttime throughout, you know, high
school, like when I met someonegay.
I'm like, why am I supposed tohate them?
Because that was the kind ofthe message and like the
messaging.
Like there was, uh, you knowthere was definitely a
(34:42):
generation where it was okay tocall someone gay as an insult,
right you?
know, I never.
I never thought that that wasokay, like that was never part
of my like verbiage but um wewere um, where it was just like
the norm to say that.
And so, you know, I spent a lotof time just like coming around
and realizing, no, like I acceptthese people, these are people
(35:05):
and I love these people and Iwant them to have the same life
that I'm afforded.
And so, you know, I spent allthis time accepting other people
so that, when I realized I wasgay, I was able to accept myself
so much easier than I thinksome others are able to.
Beth (35:21):
because, you know, we society is telling us this
straight message, because thevast majority of people are
straight yeah, which which alsocomes up in that in that
documentary in 1946, because, um, one of the one of the main
folks is really vulnerable andhonest about how he really can't
open himself up to intimacybecause he's really not sure
(35:42):
that the way he's made toexperience intimacy is okay with
God.
Like he's really struggling, um, and I appreciated his
vulnerability in that.
Steph (35:51):
Yeah, I mean it's a heartbreaking moment because
you're like, I see how you gotto this place and and I'm sorry,
the church messed you up.
Yeah, the church really deprivedhim of a life, of a life of a
full life that we're allafforded by God, and yet society
is telling us no, like God isgiving you this gift and is
(36:14):
allowing this, but society istelling you no.
I feel like I was lookingthrough straight lenses, you
know, before my life, and nowI'm looking through gay lenses,
um, or conscious gay lenses.
I guess it always was a gaylens, but again, I just wasn't
conscious of it.
I can, I just see stuff so muchdifferently now, like I would
have been heartbroken by that,by that even you know before.
(36:38):
But I can totally just feelthat now.
I can feel what that feels likeand and I just I even love the
story, how the, how the moviebegins where it's.
It's a straight woman that'sreally on this quest to and, uh,
to find what the Bible saysabout homosexuality and how that
all came about.
Beth (36:57):
It's not even like her primary, it's not her main job,
it's not even like her primaryarea of study.
She just was curious about it,you know, and just really dug
into it and started teaching it.
And you know, when you teachsomething you learn more and
then you, oh, how about theseother questions?
And builds her curiosity andit's really really remarkable.
I mean digging into thearchives of how the revised
(37:19):
standard version committee wasworking and reading their letter
letters and it's really, it'sreally well done.
So, as we've said, it's been,uh, it's been about a year since
you discovered that you are alesbian.
Do you see your lifedifferently now?
Steph (37:37):
Really has opened up a whole new world of possibilities
that I had never, ever, everconsidered, because I always
considered a man and I was likeI'm not super interested in that
.
So I guess if I find them, I'llfind them, If not, whatever.
And so I never consideredmyself married to a woman Like I
, cause that was not a positive,that was not something that I
(37:57):
even, you know, ever thoughtabout.
And so now the possibility isthere and and it's strange,
cause I was like I'm cool beingsingle, but now I'm like I don't
know, I kind of think I want tobe married, Like I am way more
excited about the concept ofbeing married to a woman than I
ever was about me married to aman.
(38:17):
I was like that tracks right, Iwas like yeah.
I, you know, and when I thinkabout it I'm like I really have
only dated one person reallylike, the more I think about it.
Beth (38:29):
It's like when I dated those guys.
Steph (38:30):
That wasn't the right thing.
So I well, I don't even like.
The more I think about, themore I'm like I didn't date them
.
So I've dated one woman and weactually, um, we broke up a
month ago.
We're we're still friends andum, it was, you know, I think,
the right, the right thing forus and hopefully we'll both find
(38:54):
someone else.
But I don't know.
It's just a weird thing.
When I had already kind of likebeen like I'm cool being this
and now it's like wait, I'm not,it's like wait, I had never
considered this before and I'mkind of excited about what that
might look like.
So I'm assuming I feel likegirls feel, probably in high
school, when they start to likeget excited about guys, like I'm
(39:16):
assuming that's the feeling.
I never had that feeling, so Idon't know.
Um, but when, when girls startto realize the possibility of
like love and companionship andwhat that looks like, yeah, so
I'm assuming that's what thefeeling is and that's kind of
like cool.
But there is a part of me thatI've started to randomly get
anxiety about being gay, notabout not being okay with it,
(39:41):
but with society not being okaywith it, but just kind of
heartbreaking when you thinkabout that's not something
straight people have to gothrough.
And like the excitement of, likepossibility of finding love and
finding your person, like as astraight person realizing just
ending there, the excitement ofit, yeah, yeah.
(40:01):
But then as as a queer person,realizing the excitement that
all of these things, but thenthe thing that stops you and you
realize like there willprobably be people that will not
want me to have the happinessand not allow me to have the
happiness and will stand in theway of that, politically,
(40:23):
potentially to my face.
And so it's a harsh reality torealize I will probably never be
afforded the same ability tolove as a straight person in
society, that there will alwaysbe some kind of hush tones about
my love but not about thestraight couples love, and I
(40:45):
can't change that.
All I can do is live my life.
But the but there is anxietyabout the reality of others.
Beth (40:52):
Yeah, and and there are judgments in there and there
that there is the the likelihoodthat there will be someone at
some point who is coarse andcruel, and it just feels like
we're going backwards in this.
You know, maybe because we livein Florida.
But yeah, yeah, I mean, Ireally want to, I really want to
(41:18):
say like I I don't know, youknow it's, we're progressing,
we're going to get to a pointwhere that's not going to be an
issue, but I don't feel likethat's the truth.
I think that this is going to.
I understand your anxiety.
So, steph, what's the answer?
Why didn't you know you were alesbian?
Steph (41:36):
I don't think there was enough representation of an
alternative to straight.
It's not an alternative choice,like I didn't choose, but that
there is a spectrum and it's notjust man and wife.
Yeah, and something myex-girlfriend she like if you
(42:03):
know her, you know she's gay,like that's a big part of her
and when before I realized I wasgay, I was kind of like why is
she always like so harping onbeing gay, like why she's like
the only gay person on her joband like why is that?
Like you know that's just apart of you.
But and I asked her about itand she's like because people
(42:23):
need representation, they needto see, like, what gay people
are and that they're around,because there's plenty of gay
people that you don't even knoware gay.
Yeah, yeah, and I think youshould be able to choose how you
want to live your life.
So I don't think every gayperson needs to represent gay to
the world.
But there's power inrepresentation, there's power in
(42:47):
seeing, like a lovingrelationship of two women or two
men.
Yes, I do think there's aresponsibility.
I feel a responsibility asbeing gay, to represent it in a
healthy, good way.
What that looks like, I don'tknow.
(43:08):
Like I'm very new to this.
I do see the importance of likemaking sure that the next
generation doesn't have to waituntil they're 36 to realize
they're a lesbian.
At the end of each episode, weend with questions for
reflection.
These are questions based ontoday show that Beth will read
and leave a little pause betweenfor you to answer to yourself,
(43:28):
or you can find them in ourdescription.
Beth (43:31):
Number one do you think people are born queer?
Number two how have church andsociety influenced your
understanding of who you are?
Number three would the you of10 years ago recognize yourself
today?
What might surprise you?
And number four do you carewhat the Bible says about
(43:52):
homosexuality?
Why, or why not this?
Steph (43:55):
has been the Discovering Arts Gars podcast.
Thank you for joining us.
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