May 2, 2022 • 49 mins
In this episode we talk to Olivia Solomon, a junior at the University of Central Florida and a double major in Writing and Rhetoric and Political Science. Olivia has demonstrated a passion for political activism as a collaborating member of March For Our Lives, as well as several published op-eds in both the Orlando Sentinel and the Tallahassee Democrat, integrating her writing skills to effect change. We discuss how writing allows a voice in arguments we are passionate about, as well as delving into her process from inspiration to publication. Olivia also shares impactful writing experiences from ENC 4353 – Writing for Social Change (with Professor Melissa Pompos Mansfield) and ENC 4354 - Writing with Communities and Nonprofits (with Professor Vanessa Calkins).
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Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
Greetings and welcome to DWR discussions on Writing and Rhetoric, a space for informal conversations around research and practice in the field.
At the university level, a place inclusive for curious novices, blossoming scholars, and seasoned academics to consider and share their inquiries, experiences and passions surrounding writing and rhetoric.
(00:29):
We are your hosts, professors Meeghan Faulconer and Nikolas Gardiakos, with the University of Central Florida.
Thank you for joining us.
Now let's get this conversation started.
(00:55):
Olivia has demonstrated a passion for political activism as collaborating member of March for Our Lives as well as several published op eds in both The Orlando Sentinel and The Tallahassee Democrat, integrating her writing skills into a tool to affect change.
She joins us today to discuss how writing allows a voice and arguments we are passionate about, as well as delving into her process from inspiration to publication.
(01:23):
Thank you for joining us.
Thank you for being here today, Olivia.
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
It's a delight.
So we were talking a little bit off Mike.
You said that you came into UCF recently.
Did you take the first year writing classes here at UCF? I did.
Okay, and what was your experience coming into those classes in terms of learning about writing beyond what you'd known before in, let's say, high school? Yeah, so it was really like kind of when you get into were ever taught in high school.
(02:01):
Grammar.
I mean, it matters, but it's not like super picky, right, run on sentences, give us everything you have, versus something that I think everyone is very scared of in high school English AP classes, of being so technical and worried about getting points taken off from that.
And it was really just give us your story and we'll fix it later.
Now, did you come into UCF knowing that you wanted to go into writing and rhetoric as well as political science as a dual major or was this a journey that was a little more meandering? So I knew I wanted to do political science and I came in as political Science and journalism because I was on my student newspaper in high school and I thought that is what I wanted to do.
(02:39):
But then I realized that more with seeing the Writing and Rhetoric program that I'm not as much like a multimedia person, but just purely writing is what I love and that was where I was able to just focus on that.
Okay, so what was the first class that you took in the department aside from composition? So you kind of were in the composition classes.
(03:00):
You saw this kind of different approach to writing from something that you were used to before.
Do you remember what that first sort of class was or seeing the class.
What intrigued you about the Writing and Rhetoric department? Yeah, so seeing about the list of options that there are so many classes that it was Civil Issues and Rhetoric.
(03:22):
And really the class that changed everything for me was Writing for Social Change, where I saw that I would write opinion pieces before and about different things that I cared about and my activism.
But this was really showed me that I could take this and use writing to change, try and create positive change within the community.
And that course was with Professor Pompous Mansfield, correct? Yeah, that was one of my favorite classes I've taken at UCF and it was really it was very small class.
(03:50):
So we were all able to work together and see we all have very similar mindsets of issues and just like how we wanted to use writing to help change the world and it was interesting to see how it was obviously a class, so, you know, there was work, but it was more like we were all very happy to do it.
We were excited about the chances to pick a social issue and write about it, explain the story, do research on it because it was all something we are very passionate about.
(04:19):
And being in that setting with other kids that share that with you is just very empowering.
You mentioned that you were, I think, on your high school newspaper, correct? Yes.
So was there any shift in perspective from the idea of what it was to be a journalist versus writing for Social change? Was it continuing on a path that you already saw yourself on or did you see yourself broadening your perspectives in any way? What was that like in entering into that class from your prior experiences? Yeah, so being in my high school newspaper, we had an opinion section and that was like my favorite thing ever.
(04:55):
So I would write unbiased news stories and stuff, but then when I would get to the opinions section, that was like where I shined.
And it was funny because my junior year of high school, my adviser was like, maybe you should let some other people write in the opinion session.
Let's take a break for the second.
I was like, oh, okay.
And I think what I saw is I've always had very strong opinions, I've always been very vocal about them.
(05:17):
And with journalism, obviously being unbiased is very important and I still do that with facts and when I'm explaining an issue.
But what I saw most was shifting from the idea of wanting to be a journalist to more political activism and policy writing.
And I want to be like speech writing for a congressional candidate or someone in Congress eventually.
(05:38):
Was that instead of writing about what was happening and just showcasing all the change that was happening in the world around me, I wanted to be the ones who make that change.
And the ones who push that forward rather than to be sitting there and writing about it, which is super important to inform people.
It's just not where I saw myself anymore.
How do you approach such an undertaking? You see something, it lights a fire within you and then you say, all right, I'm dissatisfied with the state of the world around me.
(06:08):
I want to spark a change.
How do you approach then the way that you would begin to write yourself into that change? So I think I really ironically, it comes almost from a place of anger where I'll sit down with all my thoughts and I'll just type something sometimes.
It's usually like 02:00 in the morning when I do this and I'm just really angry.
I've read something or I do participate in a lot of activism.
(06:30):
I'll be doing protests and different things and I won't see change going the way I wanted to.
So I'll sit down and kind of just put all my thoughts onto the paper, almost like a word vomit.
And then I'll go back and edit everything from there.
But starting from that place of really strong passion and anger is where I'm able to cut it down and make it digestible to people to see the need for change.
(06:53):
But getting from that place of passion is where I start.
And there's a difference between seeing the need for change and turning it into something actionable as well.
What type of consideration do you take then? Like, if you were to say you were involved in the March for Our Lives, you were involved collaborating and rewriting some policy, am I correct? Talk to us a little bit about that and then maybe how you take that approach in terms of writing for change specifically, as opposed to just writing to raise awareness.
(07:28):
Yeah.
So I've been involved in March of Our Lives since the beginning of its creation in 2018.
I was 15 years old and lived very close to Parkland when the Marjorie Stone and Douglas High School shooting started occurred.
And it changed everything for me.
I was very much like a politically aware kids.
(07:50):
My family was very active in the community and my parents always taught me, if you see something you don't like and unjust, it's your job to change it.
But that really kick started seeing that moment.
I was like, okay, my friends are being shot at school.
I had very close friends I went to sleep boy camp with who are texting me as they were hiding in a closet.
(08:10):
And that really opened my eyes.
I can't sit around anymore.
And it's up to me and our generation to create change.
So from there, I've been involved with them since I was able to sit on a state board seat, work with the people at the national level.
And when we're talking about policy, I was able to help write ideas and participate in things on how we want to change our communities and talking about community safety, attacking gun violence from its roots like poverty and political apathy and different things like that, rather than just looking at the issue of guns because there's so many intersectional ideas there that caused this epidemic.
(08:51):
Yeah.
I want to ask a question about the document.
And the document is called it ends with us.
A Plan to Reimagine Public Safety is the document that you collaborated with.
And I took a look at it and it's well thought out.
And your discussion about your motivation and your anger and your need to change want to change things.
(09:15):
I'm curious, in reading a document like that, how do you see those two things, as you said, kind of intersecting the sort of motivation to change things and then also the strategy to change things? Because I think from a rhetorical standpoint, those are two kind of interesting things to combine together.
And I think they're both necessary.
(09:35):
Right.
That passion.
But then when you read the document, it's also a very well sort of thought out plan with recommendations, with action steps and things like that.
So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about for you and your experience collaborating and writing, how those things kind of form together.
(09:56):
Yeah, so with that, I saw it as more of like a roadmap for this.
And I think when we look at different movements, especially the civil rights movement, you need to focus on an idea and tell people and the government and that's how you get things across.
This is what we need to do and give very clear cut ideas.
And that's definitely something that takes a long time.
(10:16):
And it's why change is very slow and sometimes agonizing.
But by getting step by step things done and showing that this is what we want now, this is what we need to do now, it's how we get to that change.
Because just calling for a collective demand of things and vague wording is really how a lot of movements are overlooked and not taken seriously.
(10:39):
So when I analyze that document, seeing that, it really opened my eyes up to like, okay, so if I'm going to continue writing like this, if I want to get into policy writing, I need to make it very clear cut and show that this is what we need and this is why we need it and we need it now.
And taking those steps to get there is how you create change.
And I've interned in a legislative office of Representative Carlos Guerma Smith.
(11:03):
He is the state legislature for UCF and working with him and getting a sense of policy and I've been able to write bill analysis for him and get hands on experience in the legislative system.
It's shown that.
Well.
Working with a Democrat and also in Florida is very much on the defensive ways and attack.
Especially with the last session that we're coming out of and seeing these.
(11:29):
It's always kind of a constant uphill battle and it's very exhausting.
But little by little showing that we're not giving up on this fight and this is what we want now.
This is what we want next.
This is the future that we imagine is kind of how I look at my writing and fighting for the change.
Throughout that.
I often talk to my students in terms of creating an argument and they have to approach it in terms of thinking about counterarguments.
(11:57):
It shows that you're a thoughtful researcher, that you almost think of it in terms of asking for permission for something that you think you're going to be denied.
Like if you're a kid and you want to get a puppy and you know that your parents are going to say, well no, because who's going to walk it or who's going to feed it? And you're like, well no, I have a plan and before I go to school I can walk it at 07:00 and then when I get home at 03:00, I can walk it again and then I will feed it at this time.
(12:22):
And you spend the time preparing yourself, thinking, these are all of the objections that I'm going to come up against and I'm going to do the work ahead of time to come up with a plan to counter those arguments.
So when you're dealing with something that is as multifaceted as some of these arguments that you are writing about in particular, let's just stick with the March for Our Lives issue.
(12:52):
What kind of work as a collaborator is done to try to process what you might come up against in terms of counterargument? Is that a part of the process when you're drafting these documents and what does that look like? Oh, for sure.
And I think it's researching and reading other articles and reading other opinions and staying up to date on everything happening, but it's also being active in the community, being there, not just looking on the sidelines.
(13:20):
Like my friends and roommates joke that I'm never home and I'm either in class or at a protest and I'm constantly in the streets fighting the battle with other people uplifting, other minorities that I tried to really get like a hands on experience.
And not only do I feel that I'm helping to create change through that, but I'm able to see the first hand arguments and feedback and things we're getting there and take that into my writing and consider it.
(13:48):
Because when you're at a protest, you hear all the sides of it.
You see counter protesters, you see everything.
And from looking at that perspective and in addition to like reading other articles from other perspectives, you really see both sides and are able to go in to your argument and say, okay, I know what you're saying already and this is what I reply to it and this is why you're wrong, and this is what we need to do in order to change that.
(14:14):
I feel like these days it's also more difficult than ever to vet our arguments.
So what is that like as someone who's continually contributing to activism in terms of vetting new sources as well as counter arguments? Yeah, so I definitely try to be very careful with my sources.
(14:34):
Use like well established things like New York Times, Washington Post or data.
Pure data is very hard to often hard to dispute.
And so things like BBC is more unbiased where I would get there and I would look where they're getting their data from or NPR and where they're getting their statistics from, looking at through government documents and getting the statistics and things like that.
(15:04):
I'll use sources and then look at the sources that they use to go back to government surveys are often where I look a lot, definitely in terms of the fight for gun violence, the CDC is I get a lot of my statistics and my arguments from there.
Okay, I was going to ask about this document that you analyzed as part of your writing for Social Change Course.
(15:29):
Right.
And then this was also part of the presentation that you did at the most recent UCF writing fest where you presented.
I was at the presentation, the virtual presentation via Zoom where you talked about it.
Was this document correct? The one that you analyzed? So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what the experience was like presenting your analysis and your work on this paper at the UCF writing fest and then what it was kind of like for you to translate it from an analysis that you wrote in class to a presentation that you gave.
(16:08):
Yeah, so it was definitely giving a presentation.
I was more nervous.
You're there, you say whatever you say is what sticks.
And I always say that I'm a better writer than I am a talker.
And I've definitely gotten better at that as I've gotten more involved in activism and done speeches at protests and different things.
But with writing, it's really always been where I can shine and edit and make sure everything's perfect.
(16:30):
And I'm definitely a perfectionist in that way.
And I get nervous when I'm talking and presenting in that setting.
And it's like, oh, if you stutter, that's what happens.
It's there.
It sticks if you stumble.
And I try not to focus on that as much, but definitely studying my analysis and just reading and reminding myself of the points, especially because there's a little time between when I wrote the paper and when I presented it, just refreshing myself and just kind of assuring myself of, I know this, I wrote this.
(16:57):
This is stuff that I'm very passionate about.
Whatever I say is going to be how I feel.
There are times when statistics can lack passion.
So how do you bring passion about to something that could maybe seem just strictly quantitative.
(17:19):
Yeah.
So I definitely try to humanize them and to bring it.
And a lot of the work I do and in my writing and my last piece when I wrote about antisemitism and especially even gun violence, is when you take the statistics and you turn them into human lives.
These percentages, this amount of people.
A particular statistic that I always stuck with me is around 106 people roughly die every single day in America because of gun violence.
(17:45):
And that's thinking of your friends, your neighbors, your loved ones, and those people have that community around them and taking them out of that statistic and putting a face to that, and especially with antisemitism as a member of the Jewish community and seeing like, these are communities just like ours.
These are people just like us.
The recent attack we heard in the news, that is a community that has just been changed forever.
(18:09):
Yeah, I wanted to ask a follow up question about that.
It was a guest columnist piece in the Orlando Sentinel called I want to fight Anti Semitism, but I Can't do it alone.
And so when I read that one, I think, again, your description of how you sort of try and humanize it as a way to reach people definitely comes through in that piece.
(18:31):
And so it made me think of when you were doing that, when you were making those appeals, what is it that you imagine about the audience? What will be effective, what they need to hear? How do you combine talking about an issue or problem, as Megan said, from a sort of data analysis point of view where the statistics bear out that this is an issue that's happening in society, and then sort of as a columnist, really trying to reach that audience or that person.
(19:07):
And so I'm just curious, who is that for you? What do you sort of imagine as a way to sort of appeal to your audience? Yeah, so I always try to keep in mind that the people who strongly disagree with you and read your piece going in with a negative attitude, you're probably not going to change their minds, but if you can get them to give a little sympathy in the end is always sometimes the end goal.
(19:31):
And by sharing a story, my story with anti Semitism and how I grew up in a pretty Jewish community, and I never really experienced this until I got to college.
And I'd see posters on campus with swastikas different things, neo Nazis down the street from campus, things like that, when you're telling them how you feel and saying, this is affecting me.
(19:52):
This is what it's doing to me and my community, by taking the statistics and the hard facts and everything, and the generalized news stories that you hear, and giving it a personal story or telling a personal story of someone else and I think that's definitely where I've always come from.
My writing is the emotional side of when I was little, my parents would always joke that I love to make up stories and tell stories.
(20:16):
And that's how I really got into writing.
As like in elementary school, I would write narratives and things like that.
And as I got older, I said, oh, I could take the stories of real people because they're just as interesting and show this is how we need to make change because of this.
We need to make change because this is happening.
And connecting back to gun violence, something that really I definitely look at in this movement is an organization called Change the Ref, and it was established by the victim of Marjorie Stone, and Duck was one of them.
(20:48):
His name is Joaquin Oliver.
His parents started this organization after he was murdered.
And it's talking about their son and their stories.
And they'll put videos of him from when they're little and say, our child is no longer with us because of gun violence, because of this epidemic in America.
And put a face to that.
And his dad often uses art as a form of activism.
(21:12):
And he'll put paintings and pictures of his son in his work and it shows.
This was a child, this was a 17 year old or 18.
I'm not positive of his age when he passed, but said this was someone who had so much potential.
This is the story.
Putting a story to it and telling their dreams.
Sharing his tweets that he wrote before pictures, Instagram posts and saying like, wow, this is a person just like me.
(21:37):
He's not just a statistic.
He has a life, he has people who care about him.
And I think I try to do that in all my stories and opeds and opinions that I write, because all these policies are people policies and the things that are happening in our government are affecting real people every single day.
(21:58):
And to go and zero in on how this is really affecting one person's life and millions other because of it, I think really creates empathy and allows people to see.
And surely you could still disagree with everything that I write and you could still say, well, this really isn't an issue.
But it's harder to do that when you see how many people it's hurt or how many people it's affected.
(22:19):
In my mind, there would be a very different composing process from reading something that at 02:00 in the morning inspires you to draft a response versus working collaboratively to write policy.
So I was wondering if you could talk about the differences, if there are any for you in terms of your composing process when you're writing for such different purposes.
(22:47):
The purposes actually are very similar, so maybe it's just the audience is a little bit different when it comes to those types of writing.
Does your writing process differ at all in those situations.
I think it all comes from the place of wanting to create change.
But it definitely differs in the way of I try to keep more emotion in the opinions I'm writing rather than the policy.
(23:10):
Because within the government and within those things.
They'll often say this is too emotionally charged.
We can't look at this.
Which I think is redundant in a way because it's affecting people.
But I'll use specific language that I wouldn't normally use in an oped.
I'll make it there's definitely more of a technical style to it that I'll go about and look at different references then rather just throwing in the anger and the emotion and then shaping it from there.
(23:38):
It stems from the same place, but it's a very different writing process.
And the way you know who you're giving it to.
You know.
You're giving it to lawmakers and even certain ones if you're targeting them.
Especially in Florida.
A lot of conservative white men and looking at that and they'll look at these opinions and say.
No.
That's emotionally charged.
We can't do this.
That's not necessary.
(23:58):
And giving them statistics and facts is often more hard.
Clear cut way to give them the information within the policy and say.
This is exactly what we need to do within political terms.
And they could just as easily turn it away.
But it's harder for them to do that when they're looking at it in that realm.
(24:20):
How has your journey continued from Professor Pompos Mansfield's class, which was Writing for Social Change, and now you're currently taking writing with communities and nonprofits with Professor Collkins.
Talk to us a little bit about what your work is like in that course.
Yeah, so within Writing for Social Change, it definitely was like, oh, I could take my writing and I could try to get it published, I could use this, and I did it once or twice before, but it definitely inspired me to do more.
(24:48):
So and now in Writing for Communities and Nonprofits, we really focus on grant writing, which I think is really interesting, and how to use writing to propel organizations and different things within communities.
So it definitely has the emotional and opinion aspect, especially when you're working with a nonprofit that has a mission you really care about.
(25:11):
But it's kind of a way to push these organizations forward and help get them money and help them get the resources they need.
So it's looking from the more business technical side of taking writing and using it to push an agenda or change.
How does grant writing fact figure on the yardstick? If you had op eds at one end and maybe writing political policy on another, how does grant writing fit in rhetorically in terms of audience and purpose and maybe the type of language you would use? How does that feel to you as a writer? So I feel like it kind of takes it to you and combines it.
(25:52):
And it's almost in the middle of that spectrum and the way that you can show emotion, maybe not too much, you can provide a story and you can give a little information of the background, but it's very much in the way that it's not too long.
It just gives a little bit of why we're doing this, the mission, and then directly in the way of policy does, saying, I'm answering your question.
(26:16):
This is what we need, this is why we need it, this is what we'll use it for.
And the technical kind of way of writing that, but also saying, but this is our mission and this is why we need it.
And if you give us this money, this is what you would be doing, and this is why you should do it.
So kind of taking that emotional aspect and turning it into, but this is why you should and these are the things we are doing, and this is what we are doing with the money you are giving us.
(26:44):
Yes, I think that's a really great description of grant writing, because I think in relation to things that you've mentioned here, it is a combination of both the motivation and the plan.
Right.
In a grant, the plan of what you're going to use, the resources for what you plan to do, all the activities, materials, resources, all those things need to be accounted for and justified.
(27:13):
So it's part persuasion and then part planning and strategy.
When you imagine writing a grant or proposing a grant, or maybe you have some of those ideas generating or have generated them already, what are some of those other programs or grants that you think about or maybe planning for? Yeah, so we've been writing for social not ready for social change within the class of writing for communities and nonprofits.
(27:48):
Some of our projects are oh, like, we work with Page 15, which is a nonprofit in Orlando which works with underserved youth, and it's a literacy program.
It's so much more than that.
But that is kind of just like the rough description.
So looking at these community based organizations and how this we started out as writing for them, and now I'm kind of looking forward and it's like, oh, what are other organizations I care about? What are other community based things that can really change? And I think that's something that's really helped me with this was I was a Girl Scout for 13 years, from kindergarten to when I graduated high school, and I was always told that when we do project with them, what is an issue within your community and how are you going to fix it? And I think with grant writing and with the things that I hope to do in the future is I always go back to the community, to the local people and what they need and what they want.
(28:41):
And that's how you take.
It statewide or national for an issue and fight for it by looking at what is actually needed and not what is just talked about in the media because sometimes it's very different from what a community actually needs.
What kind of writing inspires you? So definitely I'll read a lot of political memoirs or a lot of things on stories of immigration and different stories of like books and people that struggle within America and within really just like whether it's historical fiction or it's a struggle that people are facing now.
(29:25):
And the story so personal stories is definitely something that really inspires me and something I look at for my writing and hope to inspire other people with and just seeing the human side of issues and humanizing everything.
Have there been any that have stood out in particular to you that have kind of shaped you formatively in this path that you're on? Yeah, for sure.
(29:46):
I can't think of a specific.
Like title off the top of my head.
But like I said.
There are stories that authors will take.
The stories of people coming across the border and the struggle and they'll sit with them and they'll interview them and they'll follow them in their lives for weeks and then write the story off of their lives from there and just showing the everyday things that we take for granted and we struggle with and they struggle with that we don't even realize.
(30:13):
And so opening up that issue and I think also something that is historically always stuck with me is the Diary of Infringe is something that really reading that in elementary and middle school was something that opened my eyes because you see all these issues that they're addressing and that this girl is addressing within her diary without really realizing it.
(30:35):
And just being someone who is Jewish and had ancestors in that position and had family members who didn't make it out much like Anne Frank and seeing the change that just that writing creates and it wasn't even intended to do that.
I ask only because I believe it's.
Eshelley Reid says be a greedy reader, that's her advice to writers is be a greedy reader.
(31:00):
And for someone who write as yourself.
Writes a lot in response to other writing.
I was curious if there were particular.
Even new sources that you go to a lot as a standby or even if there are particular blogs or TikToks or anything that you are like is your go to in terms of sources for information that continually inspire you or even inspire you to respond in a way that is like a call to action? Yeah.
(31:29):
So I definitely always see myself going back to Time Magazine or Washington Post in the way that they take stories and they will give you the facts and I think Time Magazine does this more and telling a personal story in the way that I wish I could do that one day and Washington Post.
Often they'll tackle policy and different political issues going on, but they also take personal stories and they'll look at the human side of issues.
(31:54):
And that's something that reading that growing up and always looking at their articles definitely inspired me to kind of take that route in writing.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
As someone that enjoys that kind of long form journalism where they are telling a human story, but also pointing out an issue and things like that, but not something that's like a quick read or meant to be, just sort of a quick delivery of facts or things going on.
(32:23):
It's more pieces that are meant for us as audiences to connect with people and things going on because of the power of those stories.
And it makes me want to ask you a little bit more about the opinion piece that you had on the Tallahassee Democrat titled The Don't Say Gay Bill Will Hurt Families Like Mine, because that one is essentially like your family story, right? You use those stories to make a point and to affect an audience.
(32:53):
And so I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about how that came up there's.
The great first, I can't remember exactly what that was.
I was just going to say no one can pick on my siblings but me or something like that.
I was just going to say I was going to fan Girl for a second and say, I love that opening.
I was not expecting it.
I think it was so fantastic.
(33:14):
You read the headline and then you said the first line and it really captures you.
Yeah, it captures you.
It's very sort of disarming to any sort of thing that you might bring to it as an audience.
It just sort of gets out of the way real quick.
So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that and using your family stories and what those mean to you and what the piece meant to them as well.
(33:39):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So I have a very I like to say Rainbow family.
My older sister is lesbian and her and her wife are actually trying to start a family now.
My younger brother is gender nonconforming, which means he breaks the stereotypes of gender.
He presents completely female, but he identifies as male.
And just growing up with that and seeing the responses he gets, seeing the acceptance he has in his elementary school, but he's currently in fifth grade and middle school is really hard for everyone, especially when you're a boy in a dress and seeing this bill and looking at it and saying, this is hurting my family.
(34:17):
My sister actually ended up quitting teaching after four years because of a lot of reasons.
But this bill being one of the final pushes and seeing the homophobia within schools already and the fact that we have lawmakers coming out and saying, if you don't support this bill, you are a pedophile.
(34:37):
This is an antigooming bill, when it so clearly isn't.
And just, like, looking at that language, and I've read the bills so many times, and it has a direct part where it stops people from talking about gender identity and sexual orientation.
And I don't think either of those topics is talked about in an appropriate manner for the age that you're explaining it to is taboo, or should be at least, or is sexual in any way.
(35:02):
And it goes back to this trope of in, the being gay, being something sexualized and demonized and not okay.
And growing up very close and within the LGBT community, I see these are people, these are lives you're changing.
And when I started that, I joke, I love my siblings, I do anything for them, but we constantly fight.
(35:24):
And it's like, no, you're not allowed to be mean to my sister, but no, she cannot borrow my sweater, like that kind of thing.
And it's very I think, relatable to everyone with siblings is I'll fight for them and I will absolutely stand up to anyone who is mean to them, but I'll also yell at them and be mean to them back, but in a completely different way.
And only I'm allowed to get away with that.
And seeing this bill is hurting so many children, and it's directly hurting my brother.
(35:49):
He's not in the age range, they say, of kindergarten through third grade anymore, but it has such vague implications that when he corrects the teacher on his pronouns, are they allowed to dismiss it? When he explains to people that he is gender nonconforming and this is who he is, are teachers going to stop him and say, no, we don't talk about that here? And that's just something that bothers me and hurts me as a sister.
(36:12):
And we may not always get along.
We definitely fight a lot, my little brother and I.
But, you know, I love him, and no one is allowed to bully him or tell him that he's not good enough.
And I see the confidence he has, and it just scares me.
Looking at statistics of kids who obviously family acceptance is a huge thing, but some of them who have family acceptance but just don't in the outside world.
(36:34):
And it really gives me hope of seeing older people who are like him and in the queer community walk out and be okay and be safe and happy.
And that's just what I want for my siblings, and I think everybody wants that for their family.
And this bill is directly attacking my family.
So many families across Florida and other states where they are doing things like this.
(36:56):
My family is very involved in activism in the queer community, and we know a family in Texas who they're the current bill about that would take parents who give gender affirming character to their children and open up a case in child services under child abuse for that.
And they are literally hiding and scared that their child is going to be taken away from them because they support them, because they give them the care that they need and that is ultimately life saving, different things like that.
(37:28):
And without a doubt, we'll have bills like that coming next year in the sessions to follow as legislators, especially in Florida and Republicans, have kind of taken attack on queer kids and youth and used them to their advantage and take everything from them.
And just seeing that with my family is so heartbreaking and makes me so angry.
(37:50):
In my piece I mentioned, I do go to Tallahassee a little bit to lobby and to speak on different things I'm passionate about.
But I took off all my classes for the day.
I took a bus at 04:00 in the morning to go to Tallahassee and to testify against this bill in its final Senate hearing.
I was towards the end silenced because they said, oh, we had too many speakers, we're not going to have anyone else speak or testify.
(38:14):
And that is something that really bothered me because I came all the way this way to tell them how this is hurting me, how this is hurting my family.
And then they said, we don't care.
And a lot of people in that room walked in and it ended up passing in that committee and walked in knowing how they were going to vote and they didn't really listen to people.
And I was able to stand outside the Senate chamber and give my speech that I had written before and post it on social media and get a bit of attraction for that.
(38:39):
And in the long run, it really ended up reaching more people that way.
But seeing these people who just either don't care or don't know people in the queer community shows the importance of empathy.
And just I feel like if people in this world, especially lawmakers and elected officials, had a little bit more empathy, the world would be a better place because kids just want to be themselves.
(39:02):
My little brother just wants to go to the bathroom in school without it being an issue.
He just wants to join the dance team without people saying it's a big deal that it's a boy wearing the girl stereotypical outfit and he just wants to be happy.
He just wants to do his own thing.
And I don't understand why people are so upset by that or that bothers them so much.
(39:24):
Yeah.
And I think what's frustrating too, thinking about the way language is used in these bills a lot of the times for it to be intentionally vague in order to either get it passed or not get struck down.
But I think also to create fear.
(39:45):
Not knowing if this qualifies as something that is now sort of breaking the law against this bill or not to sort of create that sort of fear and confusion through the use of language.
Right.
In a rhetorical sense is something that.
For me.
From what I've noticed.
Inherent in a lot of this type of legislation that tries to get passed or in some cases does ultimately get passed.
(40:10):
So I'm curious, what are the sort of counter strategies to that? As an activist, as someone who speaks their mind, as someone who works with others to try and get these types of bills defeated or to speak out against them, what's the strategy to counteract that sort of vague language that's meant to develop fear in people? Yeah.
(40:36):
So looking at that language and seeing how it hurts so many people within my writing and within all the activism work, I think I try to do the opposite and specifically tackle ideas or specifically state things in a way to address people and make them see that how this is hurting people.
And especially looking at the vague language and saying, we don't know how this is going to affect people like my brother people all over, because one person's interpretation isn't the same as the other.
(41:03):
And being so specific in what you say, I think it's so important in policy making and in storytelling and just that's how you get your point across.
That's how you make people see and believe what you're telling them.
To further that idea of rhetorical listening, in particular, when you're in territory that prides itself on maybe double speak or intentional vagueness, I noticed, of course, this is a podcast, people can't see us, but you are wearing a shirt that's endorsing a particular candidate.
(41:37):
And I noticed you have some pins on your bag that are I think it's actually the same candidate or different candidates.
It's the same candidate also has really liberal ones on there too.
So as someone who is engaged in a future career that would be acting to provide the words for particular people, and you're choosing to take time away from your classes to go and fight against legislation or support other legislation, as a rhetorical listener, what are you looking for? What skills are you bringing that you have learned to vet the candidates that you choose to invest your time and energy into? Yeah, so I definitely like to get face to face with them too, especially if I'm working on a campaign.
(42:29):
You have that personal connection of working with someone, and it's very easy to tell when someone's genuine when you're talking to them and when you see their actions and when they're not, when they're just saying things.
And for this particular candidate that's on my backpack and on my shirt, maxwell Frost, he was the national director for March for Our Lives when I worked with them.
He's 25 years old and he's running for Congress as the first Gen Z candidate.
(42:51):
And he's someone who not only a friend, but a person I trust a person that I've worked with and I can fiercely defend him and say that what he says for the most part is exactly what I believe.
And I know that he's going to be fighting for other people like us out there and just seeing looking at candidates actions like something max and I was part of a group with him that we went up with Planned Parenthood on a bus.
(43:20):
It was hard hours, it was the middle of the week to go and speak out against the 15 week abortion ban and seeing things like that and seeing candidates do different things like that is showing.
They put their money where their mouth is.
They actions speak louder than words.
And people and other candidates I like to see change and I like to see them already working towards this and how these issues affect them or how they have changed this issue and want to rather than just saying, oh, I care about this, and it's almost like, how, why show me that you care about it without just telling me that you do to get elected? If there's a candidate that you have not had the chance to work with, are there any strategies in terms of the way that you would approach listening to their speech? Like if you were just sitting in session and listening to a variety of different political, either elected officials or candidates, what rhetorical strategies would you use in terms of vetting, maybe even for the next presidential campaign? What would you bring to the table in terms of your skills that you've developed in our courses here in vetting these candidates? Yeah, so definitely looking and staying in touch with the news and everything, looking at their social media accounts, looking at their past policies or past actions that they've had and seeing how that matches up with what they're saying and what they're saying in these features and these ads and kind of like saying, okay, you said this, show me how you're doing that.
(44:42):
And I think especially with the president and a lot of the current things that he said and I was part of the Biden campaign in the local chapters and a lot of the things he promised and that I really worked hard to get him elected for and seeing that he's not doing anymore and that he's especially gun violence is something that's taken a back seat and that's something that really bothers me.
And I look before I vote or support a candidate and I say, okay, if you've been in office before, let me look at your policies.
(45:10):
Let me do the research and see what you have done and how it matches up with what you're telling me.
Okay, thank you so much for being here.
We are closing in on our time for this episode, but I do have a question I was thinking of.
In all your now years of experience being an activist, in writing and writing for social change, not just the class, but actually writing for social change as well, which I think is great.
(45:37):
I'm just curious, what do you think it is that sustains you over a period of time? So when I think about people who have a passion to want to change things, what are some of the things that either keep you going or things that you do to stay healthy enough to keep going through everything that continues to go on and continues to be a struggle? So can you talk? Can you maybe reflect a little bit about what that's been for you or maybe think of some advice for people who do want to get involved? What are some of the key things to kind of keep in mind to be able to sustain that kind of energy and activism? Yeah, so I think one thing to keep in mind is this is exhausting work and it's not always rewarding, and it really rarely is, especially when you're fighting for things like these issues at this time and like political turmoil and really just remembering to take a break.
(46:35):
Sometimes I try to go everywhere and speak at this protest and go this and no, sometimes I have to be like, Olivia, you cannot be at three places in one time.
Take a break, you're overworked, you're overwhelmed, you're just going to stay home today.
And I don't do that a lot, but I do try to take that easy.
And even sometimes I try not to get upset over everything that I can't do, and that doesn't always work out.
(47:00):
Sometimes I end up calling my mom crying over the fact that this bill got passed and I worked so hard to stop it and I tried to do everything I could to stop it, and it's exhausting.
And I think so many of our lawmakers that are champions up in Tallahassee and DC fighting for these things, it's so hard to see something you worked so hard for and put all your energy into not turn out the way you want it.
(47:23):
And the thing to remember is even just fighting and being that voice, and maybe even if you're not as involved in this work, just showing up at that protest, showing support, you're doing a huge thing and it affects more people and more things than you even realize.
So keep in mind, too, this is a long term fight, it's hard, it's uphill, take care of yourself, but don't stop because of some setbacks, because that never created change.
(47:52):
If you look at all the movements in history, they weren't one overnight with everything, it's an uphill long battle, and if you care about it enough, you'll keep going despite the setbacks.
Some would argue that character is actually developed by how well you can accept defeat as well as how well you can accept a win.
(48:12):
So I think that is an important lesson.
I have one last question, and this comes from a conversation I actually had with Professor Pompous Mansfield yesterday.
She talks a lot about writing process, and I know we touched on this a little bit, but when you're writing an op ed and this is something that is just purely coming from your point of view, how do you know when you're done? That's definitely a hard question.
(48:37):
I think with op ed, especially when I'm submitting to certain publications, there's a word limit.
So I'll write everything, and then I'll be like, I just wrote a thousand words.
They only let me put 700.
I need to cut this down.
And I try to go through and take out some of the more trivial things or change words to get them shorter, those kind of thing.
But I think when there's no word limit, it's harder because you don't want to drag on forever, and especially when it's something you care about and you kind of just have to be like, all right, this is where it is.
(49:06):
And I think in writing, any writer can say it's never done.
Even people who have published books say, oh, it could always be better.
And that's, I think, so hard.
And as a writer to be like, no, I just need to stop.
If I do this anymore, it's going to keep changing.
I just need to stop and submit it, see how it goes.
And from there, just keep on working and just trust yourself.
Okay.
(49:26):
I think that's great advice.
Yeah.
Well, thank you again so much for being here today and taking the time to speak with us.
It was very illuminating, and we wish you all the best on your future academic and political and personal endeavors.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, thanks for being here.
And thanks everyone for listening.
You.
Greetings and welcome to DWR discussions on Writing and Rhetoric, a space for informal conversations around research and practice in the field.
At the university level, a place inclusive for curious novices, blossoming scholars, and seasoned academics to consider and share their inquiries, experiences and passions surrounding writing and rhetoric.
(00:29):
We are your hosts, professors Meeghan Faulconer and Nikolas Gardiakos, with the University of Central Florida.
Thank you for joining us.
Now let's get this conversation started.
(00:55):
Olivia has demonstrated a passion for political activism as collaborating member of March for Our Lives as well as several published op eds in both The Orlando Sentinel and The Tallahassee Democrat, integrating her writing skills into a tool to affect change.
She joins us today to discuss how writing allows a voice and arguments we are passionate about, as well as delving into her process from inspiration to publication.
(01:23):
Thank you for joining us.
Thank you for being here today, Olivia.
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
It's a delight.
So we were talking a little bit off Mike.
You said that you came into UCF recently.
Did you take the first year writing classes here at UCF? I did.
Okay, and what was your experience coming into those classes in terms of learning about writing beyond what you'd known before in, let's say, high school? Yeah, so it was really like kind of when you get into were ever taught in high school.
(02:01):
Grammar.
I mean, it matters, but it's not like super picky, right, run on sentences, give us everything you have, versus something that I think everyone is very scared of in high school English AP classes, of being so technical and worried about getting points taken off from that.
And it was really just give us your story and we'll fix it later.
Now, did you come into UCF knowing that you wanted to go into writing and rhetoric as well as political science as a dual major or was this a journey that was a little more meandering? So I knew I wanted to do political science and I came in as political Science and journalism because I was on my student newspaper in high school and I thought that is what I wanted to do.
(02:39):
But then I realized that more with seeing the Writing and Rhetoric program that I'm not as much like a multimedia person, but just purely writing is what I love and that was where I was able to just focus on that.
Okay, so what was the first class that you took in the department aside from composition? So you kind of were in the composition classes.
(03:00):
You saw this kind of different approach to writing from something that you were used to before.
Do you remember what that first sort of class was or seeing the class.
What intrigued you about the Writing and Rhetoric department? Yeah, so seeing about the list of options that there are so many classes that it was Civil Issues and Rhetoric.
(03:22):
And really the class that changed everything for me was Writing for Social Change, where I saw that I would write opinion pieces before and about different things that I cared about and my activism.
But this was really showed me that I could take this and use writing to change, try and create positive change within the community.
And that course was with Professor Pompous Mansfield, correct? Yeah, that was one of my favorite classes I've taken at UCF and it was really it was very small class.
(03:50):
So we were all able to work together and see we all have very similar mindsets of issues and just like how we wanted to use writing to help change the world and it was interesting to see how it was obviously a class, so, you know, there was work, but it was more like we were all very happy to do it.
We were excited about the chances to pick a social issue and write about it, explain the story, do research on it because it was all something we are very passionate about.
(04:19):
And being in that setting with other kids that share that with you is just very empowering.
You mentioned that you were, I think, on your high school newspaper, correct? Yes.
So was there any shift in perspective from the idea of what it was to be a journalist versus writing for Social change? Was it continuing on a path that you already saw yourself on or did you see yourself broadening your perspectives in any way? What was that like in entering into that class from your prior experiences? Yeah, so being in my high school newspaper, we had an opinion section and that was like my favorite thing ever.
(04:55):
So I would write unbiased news stories and stuff, but then when I would get to the opinions section, that was like where I shined.
And it was funny because my junior year of high school, my adviser was like, maybe you should let some other people write in the opinion session.
Let's take a break for the second.
I was like, oh, okay.
And I think what I saw is I've always had very strong opinions, I've always been very vocal about them.
(05:17):
And with journalism, obviously being unbiased is very important and I still do that with facts and when I'm explaining an issue.
But what I saw most was shifting from the idea of wanting to be a journalist to more political activism and policy writing.
And I want to be like speech writing for a congressional candidate or someone in Congress eventually.
(05:38):
Was that instead of writing about what was happening and just showcasing all the change that was happening in the world around me, I wanted to be the ones who make that change.
And the ones who push that forward rather than to be sitting there and writing about it, which is super important to inform people.
It's just not where I saw myself anymore.
How do you approach such an undertaking? You see something, it lights a fire within you and then you say, all right, I'm dissatisfied with the state of the world around me.
(06:08):
I want to spark a change.
How do you approach then the way that you would begin to write yourself into that change? So I think I really ironically, it comes almost from a place of anger where I'll sit down with all my thoughts and I'll just type something sometimes.
It's usually like 02:00 in the morning when I do this and I'm just really angry.
I've read something or I do participate in a lot of activism.
(06:30):
I'll be doing protests and different things and I won't see change going the way I wanted to.
So I'll sit down and kind of just put all my thoughts onto the paper, almost like a word vomit.
And then I'll go back and edit everything from there.
But starting from that place of really strong passion and anger is where I'm able to cut it down and make it digestible to people to see the need for change.
(06:53):
But getting from that place of passion is where I start.
And there's a difference between seeing the need for change and turning it into something actionable as well.
What type of consideration do you take then? Like, if you were to say you were involved in the March for Our Lives, you were involved collaborating and rewriting some policy, am I correct? Talk to us a little bit about that and then maybe how you take that approach in terms of writing for change specifically, as opposed to just writing to raise awareness.
(07:28):
Yeah.
So I've been involved in March of Our Lives since the beginning of its creation in 2018.
I was 15 years old and lived very close to Parkland when the Marjorie Stone and Douglas High School shooting started occurred.
And it changed everything for me.
I was very much like a politically aware kids.
(07:50):
My family was very active in the community and my parents always taught me, if you see something you don't like and unjust, it's your job to change it.
But that really kick started seeing that moment.
I was like, okay, my friends are being shot at school.
I had very close friends I went to sleep boy camp with who are texting me as they were hiding in a closet.
(08:10):
And that really opened my eyes.
I can't sit around anymore.
And it's up to me and our generation to create change.
So from there, I've been involved with them since I was able to sit on a state board seat, work with the people at the national level.
And when we're talking about policy, I was able to help write ideas and participate in things on how we want to change our communities and talking about community safety, attacking gun violence from its roots like poverty and political apathy and different things like that, rather than just looking at the issue of guns because there's so many intersectional ideas there that caused this epidemic.
(08:51):
Yeah.
I want to ask a question about the document.
And the document is called it ends with us.
A Plan to Reimagine Public Safety is the document that you collaborated with.
And I took a look at it and it's well thought out.
And your discussion about your motivation and your anger and your need to change want to change things.
(09:15):
I'm curious, in reading a document like that, how do you see those two things, as you said, kind of intersecting the sort of motivation to change things and then also the strategy to change things? Because I think from a rhetorical standpoint, those are two kind of interesting things to combine together.
And I think they're both necessary.
(09:35):
Right.
That passion.
But then when you read the document, it's also a very well sort of thought out plan with recommendations, with action steps and things like that.
So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about for you and your experience collaborating and writing, how those things kind of form together.
(09:56):
Yeah, so with that, I saw it as more of like a roadmap for this.
And I think when we look at different movements, especially the civil rights movement, you need to focus on an idea and tell people and the government and that's how you get things across.
This is what we need to do and give very clear cut ideas.
And that's definitely something that takes a long time.
(10:16):
And it's why change is very slow and sometimes agonizing.
But by getting step by step things done and showing that this is what we want now, this is what we need to do now, it's how we get to that change.
Because just calling for a collective demand of things and vague wording is really how a lot of movements are overlooked and not taken seriously.
(10:39):
So when I analyze that document, seeing that, it really opened my eyes up to like, okay, so if I'm going to continue writing like this, if I want to get into policy writing, I need to make it very clear cut and show that this is what we need and this is why we need it and we need it now.
And taking those steps to get there is how you create change.
And I've interned in a legislative office of Representative Carlos Guerma Smith.
(11:03):
He is the state legislature for UCF and working with him and getting a sense of policy and I've been able to write bill analysis for him and get hands on experience in the legislative system.
It's shown that.
Well.
Working with a Democrat and also in Florida is very much on the defensive ways and attack.
Especially with the last session that we're coming out of and seeing these.
(11:29):
It's always kind of a constant uphill battle and it's very exhausting.
But little by little showing that we're not giving up on this fight and this is what we want now.
This is what we want next.
This is the future that we imagine is kind of how I look at my writing and fighting for the change.
Throughout that.
I often talk to my students in terms of creating an argument and they have to approach it in terms of thinking about counterarguments.
(11:57):
It shows that you're a thoughtful researcher, that you almost think of it in terms of asking for permission for something that you think you're going to be denied.
Like if you're a kid and you want to get a puppy and you know that your parents are going to say, well no, because who's going to walk it or who's going to feed it? And you're like, well no, I have a plan and before I go to school I can walk it at 07:00 and then when I get home at 03:00, I can walk it again and then I will feed it at this time.
(12:22):
And you spend the time preparing yourself, thinking, these are all of the objections that I'm going to come up against and I'm going to do the work ahead of time to come up with a plan to counter those arguments.
So when you're dealing with something that is as multifaceted as some of these arguments that you are writing about in particular, let's just stick with the March for Our Lives issue.
(12:52):
What kind of work as a collaborator is done to try to process what you might come up against in terms of counterargument? Is that a part of the process when you're drafting these documents and what does that look like? Oh, for sure.
And I think it's researching and reading other articles and reading other opinions and staying up to date on everything happening, but it's also being active in the community, being there, not just looking on the sidelines.
(13:20):
Like my friends and roommates joke that I'm never home and I'm either in class or at a protest and I'm constantly in the streets fighting the battle with other people uplifting, other minorities that I tried to really get like a hands on experience.
And not only do I feel that I'm helping to create change through that, but I'm able to see the first hand arguments and feedback and things we're getting there and take that into my writing and consider it.
(13:48):
Because when you're at a protest, you hear all the sides of it.
You see counter protesters, you see everything.
And from looking at that perspective and in addition to like reading other articles from other perspectives, you really see both sides and are able to go in to your argument and say, okay, I know what you're saying already and this is what I reply to it and this is why you're wrong, and this is what we need to do in order to change that.
(14:14):
I feel like these days it's also more difficult than ever to vet our arguments.
So what is that like as someone who's continually contributing to activism in terms of vetting new sources as well as counter arguments? Yeah, so I definitely try to be very careful with my sources.
(14:34):
Use like well established things like New York Times, Washington Post or data.
Pure data is very hard to often hard to dispute.
And so things like BBC is more unbiased where I would get there and I would look where they're getting their data from or NPR and where they're getting their statistics from, looking at through government documents and getting the statistics and things like that.
(15:04):
I'll use sources and then look at the sources that they use to go back to government surveys are often where I look a lot, definitely in terms of the fight for gun violence, the CDC is I get a lot of my statistics and my arguments from there.
Okay, I was going to ask about this document that you analyzed as part of your writing for Social Change Course.
(15:29):
Right.
And then this was also part of the presentation that you did at the most recent UCF writing fest where you presented.
I was at the presentation, the virtual presentation via Zoom where you talked about it.
Was this document correct? The one that you analyzed? So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what the experience was like presenting your analysis and your work on this paper at the UCF writing fest and then what it was kind of like for you to translate it from an analysis that you wrote in class to a presentation that you gave.
(16:08):
Yeah, so it was definitely giving a presentation.
I was more nervous.
You're there, you say whatever you say is what sticks.
And I always say that I'm a better writer than I am a talker.
And I've definitely gotten better at that as I've gotten more involved in activism and done speeches at protests and different things.
But with writing, it's really always been where I can shine and edit and make sure everything's perfect.
(16:30):
And I'm definitely a perfectionist in that way.
And I get nervous when I'm talking and presenting in that setting.
And it's like, oh, if you stutter, that's what happens.
It's there.
It sticks if you stumble.
And I try not to focus on that as much, but definitely studying my analysis and just reading and reminding myself of the points, especially because there's a little time between when I wrote the paper and when I presented it, just refreshing myself and just kind of assuring myself of, I know this, I wrote this.
(16:57):
This is stuff that I'm very passionate about.
Whatever I say is going to be how I feel.
There are times when statistics can lack passion.
So how do you bring passion about to something that could maybe seem just strictly quantitative.
(17:19):
Yeah.
So I definitely try to humanize them and to bring it.
And a lot of the work I do and in my writing and my last piece when I wrote about antisemitism and especially even gun violence, is when you take the statistics and you turn them into human lives.
These percentages, this amount of people.
A particular statistic that I always stuck with me is around 106 people roughly die every single day in America because of gun violence.
(17:45):
And that's thinking of your friends, your neighbors, your loved ones, and those people have that community around them and taking them out of that statistic and putting a face to that, and especially with antisemitism as a member of the Jewish community and seeing like, these are communities just like ours.
These are people just like us.
The recent attack we heard in the news, that is a community that has just been changed forever.
(18:09):
Yeah, I wanted to ask a follow up question about that.
It was a guest columnist piece in the Orlando Sentinel called I want to fight Anti Semitism, but I Can't do it alone.
And so when I read that one, I think, again, your description of how you sort of try and humanize it as a way to reach people definitely comes through in that piece.
(18:31):
And so it made me think of when you were doing that, when you were making those appeals, what is it that you imagine about the audience? What will be effective, what they need to hear? How do you combine talking about an issue or problem, as Megan said, from a sort of data analysis point of view where the statistics bear out that this is an issue that's happening in society, and then sort of as a columnist, really trying to reach that audience or that person.
(19:07):
And so I'm just curious, who is that for you? What do you sort of imagine as a way to sort of appeal to your audience? Yeah, so I always try to keep in mind that the people who strongly disagree with you and read your piece going in with a negative attitude, you're probably not going to change their minds, but if you can get them to give a little sympathy in the end is always sometimes the end goal.
(19:31):
And by sharing a story, my story with anti Semitism and how I grew up in a pretty Jewish community, and I never really experienced this until I got to college.
And I'd see posters on campus with swastikas different things, neo Nazis down the street from campus, things like that, when you're telling them how you feel and saying, this is affecting me.
(19:52):
This is what it's doing to me and my community, by taking the statistics and the hard facts and everything, and the generalized news stories that you hear, and giving it a personal story or telling a personal story of someone else and I think that's definitely where I've always come from.
My writing is the emotional side of when I was little, my parents would always joke that I love to make up stories and tell stories.
(20:16):
And that's how I really got into writing.
As like in elementary school, I would write narratives and things like that.
And as I got older, I said, oh, I could take the stories of real people because they're just as interesting and show this is how we need to make change because of this.
We need to make change because this is happening.
And connecting back to gun violence, something that really I definitely look at in this movement is an organization called Change the Ref, and it was established by the victim of Marjorie Stone, and Duck was one of them.
(20:48):
His name is Joaquin Oliver.
His parents started this organization after he was murdered.
And it's talking about their son and their stories.
And they'll put videos of him from when they're little and say, our child is no longer with us because of gun violence, because of this epidemic in America.
And put a face to that.
And his dad often uses art as a form of activism.
(21:12):
And he'll put paintings and pictures of his son in his work and it shows.
This was a child, this was a 17 year old or 18.
I'm not positive of his age when he passed, but said this was someone who had so much potential.
This is the story.
Putting a story to it and telling their dreams.
Sharing his tweets that he wrote before pictures, Instagram posts and saying like, wow, this is a person just like me.
(21:37):
He's not just a statistic.
He has a life, he has people who care about him.
And I think I try to do that in all my stories and opeds and opinions that I write, because all these policies are people policies and the things that are happening in our government are affecting real people every single day.
(21:58):
And to go and zero in on how this is really affecting one person's life and millions other because of it, I think really creates empathy and allows people to see.
And surely you could still disagree with everything that I write and you could still say, well, this really isn't an issue.
But it's harder to do that when you see how many people it's hurt or how many people it's affected.
(22:19):
In my mind, there would be a very different composing process from reading something that at 02:00 in the morning inspires you to draft a response versus working collaboratively to write policy.
So I was wondering if you could talk about the differences, if there are any for you in terms of your composing process when you're writing for such different purposes.
(22:47):
The purposes actually are very similar, so maybe it's just the audience is a little bit different when it comes to those types of writing.
Does your writing process differ at all in those situations.
I think it all comes from the place of wanting to create change.
But it definitely differs in the way of I try to keep more emotion in the opinions I'm writing rather than the policy.
(23:10):
Because within the government and within those things.
They'll often say this is too emotionally charged.
We can't look at this.
Which I think is redundant in a way because it's affecting people.
But I'll use specific language that I wouldn't normally use in an oped.
I'll make it there's definitely more of a technical style to it that I'll go about and look at different references then rather just throwing in the anger and the emotion and then shaping it from there.
(23:38):
It stems from the same place, but it's a very different writing process.
And the way you know who you're giving it to.
You know.
You're giving it to lawmakers and even certain ones if you're targeting them.
Especially in Florida.
A lot of conservative white men and looking at that and they'll look at these opinions and say.
No.
That's emotionally charged.
We can't do this.
That's not necessary.
(23:58):
And giving them statistics and facts is often more hard.
Clear cut way to give them the information within the policy and say.
This is exactly what we need to do within political terms.
And they could just as easily turn it away.
But it's harder for them to do that when they're looking at it in that realm.
(24:20):
How has your journey continued from Professor Pompos Mansfield's class, which was Writing for Social Change, and now you're currently taking writing with communities and nonprofits with Professor Collkins.
Talk to us a little bit about what your work is like in that course.
Yeah, so within Writing for Social Change, it definitely was like, oh, I could take my writing and I could try to get it published, I could use this, and I did it once or twice before, but it definitely inspired me to do more.
(24:48):
So and now in Writing for Communities and Nonprofits, we really focus on grant writing, which I think is really interesting, and how to use writing to propel organizations and different things within communities.
So it definitely has the emotional and opinion aspect, especially when you're working with a nonprofit that has a mission you really care about.
(25:11):
But it's kind of a way to push these organizations forward and help get them money and help them get the resources they need.
So it's looking from the more business technical side of taking writing and using it to push an agenda or change.
How does grant writing fact figure on the yardstick? If you had op eds at one end and maybe writing political policy on another, how does grant writing fit in rhetorically in terms of audience and purpose and maybe the type of language you would use? How does that feel to you as a writer? So I feel like it kind of takes it to you and combines it.
(25:52):
And it's almost in the middle of that spectrum and the way that you can show emotion, maybe not too much, you can provide a story and you can give a little information of the background, but it's very much in the way that it's not too long.
It just gives a little bit of why we're doing this, the mission, and then directly in the way of policy does, saying, I'm answering your question.
(26:16):
This is what we need, this is why we need it, this is what we'll use it for.
And the technical kind of way of writing that, but also saying, but this is our mission and this is why we need it.
And if you give us this money, this is what you would be doing, and this is why you should do it.
So kind of taking that emotional aspect and turning it into, but this is why you should and these are the things we are doing, and this is what we are doing with the money you are giving us.
(26:44):
Yes, I think that's a really great description of grant writing, because I think in relation to things that you've mentioned here, it is a combination of both the motivation and the plan.
Right.
In a grant, the plan of what you're going to use, the resources for what you plan to do, all the activities, materials, resources, all those things need to be accounted for and justified.
(27:13):
So it's part persuasion and then part planning and strategy.
When you imagine writing a grant or proposing a grant, or maybe you have some of those ideas generating or have generated them already, what are some of those other programs or grants that you think about or maybe planning for? Yeah, so we've been writing for social not ready for social change within the class of writing for communities and nonprofits.
(27:48):
Some of our projects are oh, like, we work with Page 15, which is a nonprofit in Orlando which works with underserved youth, and it's a literacy program.
It's so much more than that.
But that is kind of just like the rough description.
So looking at these community based organizations and how this we started out as writing for them, and now I'm kind of looking forward and it's like, oh, what are other organizations I care about? What are other community based things that can really change? And I think that's something that's really helped me with this was I was a Girl Scout for 13 years, from kindergarten to when I graduated high school, and I was always told that when we do project with them, what is an issue within your community and how are you going to fix it? And I think with grant writing and with the things that I hope to do in the future is I always go back to the community, to the local people and what they need and what they want.
(28:41):
And that's how you take.
It statewide or national for an issue and fight for it by looking at what is actually needed and not what is just talked about in the media because sometimes it's very different from what a community actually needs.
What kind of writing inspires you? So definitely I'll read a lot of political memoirs or a lot of things on stories of immigration and different stories of like books and people that struggle within America and within really just like whether it's historical fiction or it's a struggle that people are facing now.
(29:25):
And the story so personal stories is definitely something that really inspires me and something I look at for my writing and hope to inspire other people with and just seeing the human side of issues and humanizing everything.
Have there been any that have stood out in particular to you that have kind of shaped you formatively in this path that you're on? Yeah, for sure.
(29:46):
I can't think of a specific.
Like title off the top of my head.
But like I said.
There are stories that authors will take.
The stories of people coming across the border and the struggle and they'll sit with them and they'll interview them and they'll follow them in their lives for weeks and then write the story off of their lives from there and just showing the everyday things that we take for granted and we struggle with and they struggle with that we don't even realize.
(30:13):
And so opening up that issue and I think also something that is historically always stuck with me is the Diary of Infringe is something that really reading that in elementary and middle school was something that opened my eyes because you see all these issues that they're addressing and that this girl is addressing within her diary without really realizing it.
(30:35):
And just being someone who is Jewish and had ancestors in that position and had family members who didn't make it out much like Anne Frank and seeing the change that just that writing creates and it wasn't even intended to do that.
I ask only because I believe it's.
Eshelley Reid says be a greedy reader, that's her advice to writers is be a greedy reader.
(31:00):
And for someone who write as yourself.
Writes a lot in response to other writing.
I was curious if there were particular.
Even new sources that you go to a lot as a standby or even if there are particular blogs or TikToks or anything that you are like is your go to in terms of sources for information that continually inspire you or even inspire you to respond in a way that is like a call to action? Yeah.
(31:29):
So I definitely always see myself going back to Time Magazine or Washington Post in the way that they take stories and they will give you the facts and I think Time Magazine does this more and telling a personal story in the way that I wish I could do that one day and Washington Post.
Often they'll tackle policy and different political issues going on, but they also take personal stories and they'll look at the human side of issues.
(31:54):
And that's something that reading that growing up and always looking at their articles definitely inspired me to kind of take that route in writing.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
As someone that enjoys that kind of long form journalism where they are telling a human story, but also pointing out an issue and things like that, but not something that's like a quick read or meant to be, just sort of a quick delivery of facts or things going on.
(32:23):
It's more pieces that are meant for us as audiences to connect with people and things going on because of the power of those stories.
And it makes me want to ask you a little bit more about the opinion piece that you had on the Tallahassee Democrat titled The Don't Say Gay Bill Will Hurt Families Like Mine, because that one is essentially like your family story, right? You use those stories to make a point and to affect an audience.
(32:53):
And so I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about how that came up there's.
The great first, I can't remember exactly what that was.
I was just going to say no one can pick on my siblings but me or something like that.
I was just going to say I was going to fan Girl for a second and say, I love that opening.
I was not expecting it.
I think it was so fantastic.
(33:14):
You read the headline and then you said the first line and it really captures you.
Yeah, it captures you.
It's very sort of disarming to any sort of thing that you might bring to it as an audience.
It just sort of gets out of the way real quick.
So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that and using your family stories and what those mean to you and what the piece meant to them as well.
(33:39):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So I have a very I like to say Rainbow family.
My older sister is lesbian and her and her wife are actually trying to start a family now.
My younger brother is gender nonconforming, which means he breaks the stereotypes of gender.
He presents completely female, but he identifies as male.
And just growing up with that and seeing the responses he gets, seeing the acceptance he has in his elementary school, but he's currently in fifth grade and middle school is really hard for everyone, especially when you're a boy in a dress and seeing this bill and looking at it and saying, this is hurting my family.
(34:17):
My sister actually ended up quitting teaching after four years because of a lot of reasons.
But this bill being one of the final pushes and seeing the homophobia within schools already and the fact that we have lawmakers coming out and saying, if you don't support this bill, you are a pedophile.
(34:37):
This is an antigooming bill, when it so clearly isn't.
And just, like, looking at that language, and I've read the bills so many times, and it has a direct part where it stops people from talking about gender identity and sexual orientation.
And I don't think either of those topics is talked about in an appropriate manner for the age that you're explaining it to is taboo, or should be at least, or is sexual in any way.
(35:02):
And it goes back to this trope of in, the being gay, being something sexualized and demonized and not okay.
And growing up very close and within the LGBT community, I see these are people, these are lives you're changing.
And when I started that, I joke, I love my siblings, I do anything for them, but we constantly fight.
(35:24):
And it's like, no, you're not allowed to be mean to my sister, but no, she cannot borrow my sweater, like that kind of thing.
And it's very I think, relatable to everyone with siblings is I'll fight for them and I will absolutely stand up to anyone who is mean to them, but I'll also yell at them and be mean to them back, but in a completely different way.
And only I'm allowed to get away with that.
And seeing this bill is hurting so many children, and it's directly hurting my brother.
(35:49):
He's not in the age range, they say, of kindergarten through third grade anymore, but it has such vague implications that when he corrects the teacher on his pronouns, are they allowed to dismiss it? When he explains to people that he is gender nonconforming and this is who he is, are teachers going to stop him and say, no, we don't talk about that here? And that's just something that bothers me and hurts me as a sister.
(36:12):
And we may not always get along.
We definitely fight a lot, my little brother and I.
But, you know, I love him, and no one is allowed to bully him or tell him that he's not good enough.
And I see the confidence he has, and it just scares me.
Looking at statistics of kids who obviously family acceptance is a huge thing, but some of them who have family acceptance but just don't in the outside world.
(36:34):
And it really gives me hope of seeing older people who are like him and in the queer community walk out and be okay and be safe and happy.
And that's just what I want for my siblings, and I think everybody wants that for their family.
And this bill is directly attacking my family.
So many families across Florida and other states where they are doing things like this.
(36:56):
My family is very involved in activism in the queer community, and we know a family in Texas who they're the current bill about that would take parents who give gender affirming character to their children and open up a case in child services under child abuse for that.
And they are literally hiding and scared that their child is going to be taken away from them because they support them, because they give them the care that they need and that is ultimately life saving, different things like that.
(37:28):
And without a doubt, we'll have bills like that coming next year in the sessions to follow as legislators, especially in Florida and Republicans, have kind of taken attack on queer kids and youth and used them to their advantage and take everything from them.
And just seeing that with my family is so heartbreaking and makes me so angry.
(37:50):
In my piece I mentioned, I do go to Tallahassee a little bit to lobby and to speak on different things I'm passionate about.
But I took off all my classes for the day.
I took a bus at 04:00 in the morning to go to Tallahassee and to testify against this bill in its final Senate hearing.
I was towards the end silenced because they said, oh, we had too many speakers, we're not going to have anyone else speak or testify.
(38:14):
And that is something that really bothered me because I came all the way this way to tell them how this is hurting me, how this is hurting my family.
And then they said, we don't care.
And a lot of people in that room walked in and it ended up passing in that committee and walked in knowing how they were going to vote and they didn't really listen to people.
And I was able to stand outside the Senate chamber and give my speech that I had written before and post it on social media and get a bit of attraction for that.
(38:39):
And in the long run, it really ended up reaching more people that way.
But seeing these people who just either don't care or don't know people in the queer community shows the importance of empathy.
And just I feel like if people in this world, especially lawmakers and elected officials, had a little bit more empathy, the world would be a better place because kids just want to be themselves.
(39:02):
My little brother just wants to go to the bathroom in school without it being an issue.
He just wants to join the dance team without people saying it's a big deal that it's a boy wearing the girl stereotypical outfit and he just wants to be happy.
He just wants to do his own thing.
And I don't understand why people are so upset by that or that bothers them so much.
(39:24):
Yeah.
And I think what's frustrating too, thinking about the way language is used in these bills a lot of the times for it to be intentionally vague in order to either get it passed or not get struck down.
But I think also to create fear.
(39:45):
Not knowing if this qualifies as something that is now sort of breaking the law against this bill or not to sort of create that sort of fear and confusion through the use of language.
Right.
In a rhetorical sense is something that.
For me.
From what I've noticed.
Inherent in a lot of this type of legislation that tries to get passed or in some cases does ultimately get passed.
(40:10):
So I'm curious, what are the sort of counter strategies to that? As an activist, as someone who speaks their mind, as someone who works with others to try and get these types of bills defeated or to speak out against them, what's the strategy to counteract that sort of vague language that's meant to develop fear in people? Yeah.
(40:36):
So looking at that language and seeing how it hurts so many people within my writing and within all the activism work, I think I try to do the opposite and specifically tackle ideas or specifically state things in a way to address people and make them see that how this is hurting people.
And especially looking at the vague language and saying, we don't know how this is going to affect people like my brother people all over, because one person's interpretation isn't the same as the other.
(41:03):
And being so specific in what you say, I think it's so important in policy making and in storytelling and just that's how you get your point across.
That's how you make people see and believe what you're telling them.
To further that idea of rhetorical listening, in particular, when you're in territory that prides itself on maybe double speak or intentional vagueness, I noticed, of course, this is a podcast, people can't see us, but you are wearing a shirt that's endorsing a particular candidate.
(41:37):
And I noticed you have some pins on your bag that are I think it's actually the same candidate or different candidates.
It's the same candidate also has really liberal ones on there too.
So as someone who is engaged in a future career that would be acting to provide the words for particular people, and you're choosing to take time away from your classes to go and fight against legislation or support other legislation, as a rhetorical listener, what are you looking for? What skills are you bringing that you have learned to vet the candidates that you choose to invest your time and energy into? Yeah, so I definitely like to get face to face with them too, especially if I'm working on a campaign.
(42:29):
You have that personal connection of working with someone, and it's very easy to tell when someone's genuine when you're talking to them and when you see their actions and when they're not, when they're just saying things.
And for this particular candidate that's on my backpack and on my shirt, maxwell Frost, he was the national director for March for Our Lives when I worked with them.
He's 25 years old and he's running for Congress as the first Gen Z candidate.
(42:51):
And he's someone who not only a friend, but a person I trust a person that I've worked with and I can fiercely defend him and say that what he says for the most part is exactly what I believe.
And I know that he's going to be fighting for other people like us out there and just seeing looking at candidates actions like something max and I was part of a group with him that we went up with Planned Parenthood on a bus.
(43:20):
It was hard hours, it was the middle of the week to go and speak out against the 15 week abortion ban and seeing things like that and seeing candidates do different things like that is showing.
They put their money where their mouth is.
They actions speak louder than words.
And people and other candidates I like to see change and I like to see them already working towards this and how these issues affect them or how they have changed this issue and want to rather than just saying, oh, I care about this, and it's almost like, how, why show me that you care about it without just telling me that you do to get elected? If there's a candidate that you have not had the chance to work with, are there any strategies in terms of the way that you would approach listening to their speech? Like if you were just sitting in session and listening to a variety of different political, either elected officials or candidates, what rhetorical strategies would you use in terms of vetting, maybe even for the next presidential campaign? What would you bring to the table in terms of your skills that you've developed in our courses here in vetting these candidates? Yeah, so definitely looking and staying in touch with the news and everything, looking at their social media accounts, looking at their past policies or past actions that they've had and seeing how that matches up with what they're saying and what they're saying in these features and these ads and kind of like saying, okay, you said this, show me how you're doing that.
(44:42):
And I think especially with the president and a lot of the current things that he said and I was part of the Biden campaign in the local chapters and a lot of the things he promised and that I really worked hard to get him elected for and seeing that he's not doing anymore and that he's especially gun violence is something that's taken a back seat and that's something that really bothers me.
And I look before I vote or support a candidate and I say, okay, if you've been in office before, let me look at your policies.
(45:10):
Let me do the research and see what you have done and how it matches up with what you're telling me.
Okay, thank you so much for being here.
We are closing in on our time for this episode, but I do have a question I was thinking of.
In all your now years of experience being an activist, in writing and writing for social change, not just the class, but actually writing for social change as well, which I think is great.
(45:37):
I'm just curious, what do you think it is that sustains you over a period of time? So when I think about people who have a passion to want to change things, what are some of the things that either keep you going or things that you do to stay healthy enough to keep going through everything that continues to go on and continues to be a struggle? So can you talk? Can you maybe reflect a little bit about what that's been for you or maybe think of some advice for people who do want to get involved? What are some of the key things to kind of keep in mind to be able to sustain that kind of energy and activism? Yeah, so I think one thing to keep in mind is this is exhausting work and it's not always rewarding, and it really rarely is, especially when you're fighting for things like these issues at this time and like political turmoil and really just remembering to take a break.
(46:35):
Sometimes I try to go everywhere and speak at this protest and go this and no, sometimes I have to be like, Olivia, you cannot be at three places in one time.
Take a break, you're overworked, you're overwhelmed, you're just going to stay home today.
And I don't do that a lot, but I do try to take that easy.
And even sometimes I try not to get upset over everything that I can't do, and that doesn't always work out.
(47:00):
Sometimes I end up calling my mom crying over the fact that this bill got passed and I worked so hard to stop it and I tried to do everything I could to stop it, and it's exhausting.
And I think so many of our lawmakers that are champions up in Tallahassee and DC fighting for these things, it's so hard to see something you worked so hard for and put all your energy into not turn out the way you want it.
(47:23):
And the thing to remember is even just fighting and being that voice, and maybe even if you're not as involved in this work, just showing up at that protest, showing support, you're doing a huge thing and it affects more people and more things than you even realize.
So keep in mind, too, this is a long term fight, it's hard, it's uphill, take care of yourself, but don't stop because of some setbacks, because that never created change.
(47:52):
If you look at all the movements in history, they weren't one overnight with everything, it's an uphill long battle, and if you care about it enough, you'll keep going despite the setbacks.
Some would argue that character is actually developed by how well you can accept defeat as well as how well you can accept a win.
(48:12):
So I think that is an important lesson.
I have one last question, and this comes from a conversation I actually had with Professor Pompous Mansfield yesterday.
She talks a lot about writing process, and I know we touched on this a little bit, but when you're writing an op ed and this is something that is just purely coming from your point of view, how do you know when you're done? That's definitely a hard question.
(48:37):
I think with op ed, especially when I'm submitting to certain publications, there's a word limit.
So I'll write everything, and then I'll be like, I just wrote a thousand words.
They only let me put 700.
I need to cut this down.
And I try to go through and take out some of the more trivial things or change words to get them shorter, those kind of thing.
But I think when there's no word limit, it's harder because you don't want to drag on forever, and especially when it's something you care about and you kind of just have to be like, all right, this is where it is.
(49:06):
And I think in writing, any writer can say it's never done.
Even people who have published books say, oh, it could always be better.
And that's, I think, so hard.
And as a writer to be like, no, I just need to stop.
If I do this anymore, it's going to keep changing.
I just need to stop and submit it, see how it goes.
And from there, just keep on working and just trust yourself.
Okay.
(49:26):
I think that's great advice.
Yeah.
Well, thank you again so much for being here today and taking the time to speak with us.
It was very illuminating, and we wish you all the best on your future academic and political and personal endeavors.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, thanks for being here.
And thanks everyone for listening.
You.
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