September 4, 2025 • 44 mins
Archie Comics represents one of the most fascinating paradoxes in American pop culture – a property deeply associated with mid-century nostalgia that has somehow remained culturally relevant for over eight decades. This exploration takes you from Archie's origins in 1939 to its surprising evolution as one of the most experimental publishers in modern comics.
Before Batman dominated box office returns or Marvel built its cinematic universe, Archie Andrews pioneered cross-media expansion. Within two years of his 1941 debut, Archie jumped to radio with a show that ran for a decade.
The genius of Archie Comics lies in its experimental spirit. When traditional comic sales declined in the 1970s, Archie pioneered the digest format, establishing distribution channels in grocery stores and mainstream retail outlets. The company simultaneously licensed its characters for Christian comics while launching horror imprints, showing remarkable versatility. By 1980, spin-offs like Betty and Veronica were outselling the flagship title, demonstrating how the Riverdale ensemble had transcended its main character.
Discover how this seemingly wholesome, time-locked property became one of the most innovative forces in comics – a transformation that would ultimately lead to groundbreaking storytelling in the modern era. The secret to Archie's longevity wasn't just nostalgia, but a willingness to evolve while maintaining its essential character – a lesson many older properties failed to learn.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are you, peter Gabriel, now?
Hmm, I blame it on the largeJohn Collider, I blame it on the
rain, I blame it on Archie.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I blame it on the boss-o-nova.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Gentlemen, let's broaden our minds.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Are they in the proper approach pattern for
today?
Negative, all weapons.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Now Charge the lightning field.
Maybe it's Archie.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
You know what?
That's actually a very goodpoint Because it's true, somehow
they managed to keep theirintegrity in fact, up their
integrity, though it's acompletely ubiquitous property
that, in most people's minds, isstuck in a specific era, but
(00:58):
has reinvented itself and turnedout to be quite lucrative and
innovative and inclusive andinclusive early on.
Today, if you haven't figuredit out, we're talking about
Archie comics and that weirdness, that inclusivity, innovation
is why it's a fascinating thing.
(01:19):
If we did an Archie, if wedidn't ever read an Archie
comics episode, if none of thathad happened, it would be like,
oh well, here's an old thingwe're talking about that has no
relevance today, like PrinceValiant or something.
But Archie comics is different.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
It has reinvented itself in really interesting
ways and is one of the moreadventurous publishers taking
chances today than most yeah, Imean, if you look at like
archie's history, the few thingsthat comic wise were out and
came out the same time archiedid you're looking dick tracy
(01:59):
completely anachronistic and adead property.
Green Hornet dead property.
Lone Ranger dead property.
The Shadow dead property.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Conan the.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Barbarian way past its prime and peak Namor the
Submariner still around, but,yeah, absorbed into Marvel.
Nothing really other than, likeyou know, your two big guys,
which we'll discuss.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, but I mean they are.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
there's something that has stood the test of time
has changed with the seasons,the decades, the turmoil of
society, the way we view comics,the way comics are read,
purchased, desired, manipulated,turned into other properties.
It's sustained all of that anda lot of times been at the
(02:52):
forefront of so much of that.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
And it's weird too, because none of that was
incremental.
It actually I mean, some of itwas.
I mean there were a lot ofspinoffs in the 50s and 60s.
You're just using the Pussycats, you're springing to the
Teenage Witch, that kind ofthing.
But most of its staying powertoday is because it did a
monumental change in the early21st century, which normally for
a property like that wouldspell its due, like Chuck E
(03:17):
Cheese today, certain thingsthat have been around for a long
time that suddenly changed theformat, because they think
they're changing with the timesand then they ruin it.
Archie managed to make it workand not just make it work,
succeed in a way more than itdid so before.
It found an audience thatlucrative.
But let's go back to thebeginning for a second Before we
get into that.
Let's let's go back all the wayback to the beginning.
(03:38):
I'd like to frame this with aninteresting anecdote here, an
excerpt from a Newsweek articlefrom issue 272 in 1998.
Quote all American romance andjust follow along with me here.
In 1938, love Finds Andy Hardy,the wholesome American hero
(03:58):
played by 18-year-old Hollywoodveteran Mickey Rooney, enjoys
the attentions of two newgirlfriends, played by lana
turner and judy garland.
That's a real sophie's choicethere, isn't it?
The wildly popular series of 15movies I think it's 16 actually
technically was recognized in1942 with a special oscar to MGM
(04:21):
for achievement in representingthe American way of life.
Okay, they invented an Oscarfor that.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I mean, they invent Oscars for things all the time.
They do.
They're giving Tom Cruise onethis coming year for, like I
don't know, sustaining andpioneering cinema in the past
decade or whatever, so alifetime achievement without
saying we want to get rid of you.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's what that is, because whatever, so a lifetime
achievement without saying wewant to get rid of you.
That's what that is, becausethat's what a lifetime
achievement award is it's likethanks for your cooperation on
the way out the door you go.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Well, it's also like hey, you didn't you like a
Sidney Poitier.
I think that's like the perfectlifetime achievement.
It's like, hey, here's a guywho was like a fantastic actor
in many great films and roles,meant so much to not only film
but society and really like hadan effect on humanity as a whole
.
This is an award for you torecognize you and what you meant
(05:15):
, as opposed to like hey,remember when cinema was down
and you made top gun and themission impossible films and you
want to make big blockbusterstuff and you're always out
there.
Hey, here's an award for you.
Thanks, buddy.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, that's one of those like well, who's somebody
popular that hasn't gotten anaward in a while?
Because we need to keep ratingsup or keep happy.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, or that.
Hasn't like tried to quote actAct.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Oh yeah, in a long time tried to quote act Act.
Oh yeah, in a long time.
As much as we talk about theobvious fantasy nostalgia of the
1950s post-war America, whichis often in the zeitgeist
represented by Leave it toBeaver or the Andy Griffith Show
.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
The archetype really has its origins Right off the
dome.
What?
No, those are literally thethings I was going to say.
Those are like the standardgo-tos, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, I mean, other than just citing Norman Rockwell
.
What else is there?
You know what I mean.
Like those are the big onesright In today's society.
But this archetype really hasits origin in the 16 film series
and by film I'm being generousfeaturing andy hardy, obviously
played by mickey rooney, notobvious because like he was in
(06:30):
everything, but because Imentioned it before.
It was a world that portrayedan idyllic american city called
carvel, possibly in idaho Ithink, which is what they kind
of imply in the first one ofthose, which was wholesome,
innocent, heteronormative,chauvinistic and effectively
void of people of color, notcompletely, but of those who do
(06:51):
exist, only one black characterhas any semblance of agency,
working as a mechanic at a localgarage.
It's also shockingly devoid ofthe effects of the Depression,
the Dust Bowl and World War II,and considering when those
movies came out, that is bizarre.
Also, though, same deal asPeople of Color, world War II is
briefly touched on in the formof sporadic glimpses of Rooney
(07:15):
in a military uniform, but thenarratives still remain
remarkably sanitary of thecultural impacts of that current
day's events, of the culturalimpacts of that current day's
events If you set something inthe Great Plains or the Midwest
during those years between 38and basically like what is like
46.
When they start coming out,it's like there's a huge, a lot
(07:36):
of things changed that definedAmerica in the 20th century and
they don't deal with them at all.
The series also featured AndyHardy's pursuit of a young woman
named Polly, but is oftentempted by another interested
party in most of these movies,such as Judy Garland as Betsy
(07:56):
Booth.
That name, I think, shouldresonate as though, or at least
should be, a dog whistle forwhat's later to come.
While I think today weassociate Archie more closely
with Happy Days, the Andy Hardyseries was actually its direct
inspiration.
As a matter of fact, happy Dayscharacter the Fonz, you know,
henry Winkler was inspired by acharacter from American Graffiti
(08:20):
, which itself was directlyinspired by Archie.
So, while it's easy for us tolike look backward and think
it's more like happy days, happydays is only exists really
because of archie archie's thedefinitive precursor as opposed
to a side effect right and andyand the andy hardy series was
(08:41):
the.
You know what it is and it'sfunny because it involves a lot
of the same people.
The direct precursor to StarWars was Flash Gordon and Buck
Rogers.
George Lucas, who also didAmerican Graffiti, inspired
Happy Days because of a directinfluence by Archie Comics.
Thankfully we're not going totouch on Howard the Duck.
We're not going to.
Even that's a horse of adifferent color.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
No, it shall never be touched upon.
No ducks shall be fucked.
We do not have the time norinclination.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Nope.
So Archie Comics began as MLJMagazines in 1939, ironically
publishing mostly superherostories.
It wasn't until Pep Comicsnumber 22 in December 1941 that
Archie Andrews made his firstappearance.
Famously, that was the onlyimportant thing that happened in
December 1941.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Wait, was there something I don't know?
No, nothing's coming to mind.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I can't think of anything.
Oh, they were supposed to.
In Congress, they were supposedto vote on the creation of a
new state, the state ofJefferson, december 8th 1941.
But there was something elsethat happened right before that.
They kept that from happening.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I don't know, I'm unaware of this Jefferson thing.
Are you being serious?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, I really don't know.
Oh, so, where I used to live inOregon, a certain part of
Northern California and SouthernOregon, I hated all those crazy
liberals.
Oh, this is the thing we talkedabout last week.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Never mind.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Okay, yes, but something happened.
What was it?
Was it?
It may have been Archie, it wasprobably Archie.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
It's probably Archie.
I mean, that's what, wheneversomething happens in history, I
say it's probably Archie.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
He was the second shooter on the grassy knoll?
Probably Archie.
Yeah, he.
Probably Archie.
Yeah, he faked the moon landing.
Obviously it's probably Archie.
It's probably Archie is now ournew t-shirt Predator.
Probably Archie.
The popularity of Andy Hardy,specifically having put what
would later be known in popculture as the teenager, which
is something we've talked aboutbefore.
(10:38):
Putting that front and centerfor young audiences, archie
immediately was a hit and wasgiven his own feature series a
year later.
So the Archie Menagerie, as Ilike to call it I just made that
up right now was originallycreated by publisher John L
Goldwater, artist Bob Montanasounds made up and writer Vic
Bloom Fun bit of history MauriceCoyne, louis Silberkleet and
(11:03):
John Goldwater.
They formed MLJ.
John MLK Released the MLJ files.
They did recently.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Weapons of Mass Distraction.
That's what that is.
They started publishing inSeptember 1939.
So the company I mean, if youhaven't figured it out, was
derived from the initials ofeach of their names.
It's based off our names.
Now here's the interesting part.
Coyne served as MLJ'sbookkeeper and CFO.
That was his role.
Silberkleet had a degree fromSt John's University, a law
(11:39):
degree from New York Law School,and was a licensed and
registered pharmacist, and hechose to publish comic books.
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
Yeah, I mean, it's the nextlogical step, right.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Knowing both lawyers and pharmacists.
No, that makes sense.
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
You do know both actually.
So his role at the company wasthe business side, you know,
printing the actual logistics,distribution, that kind of thing
.
John Goldwater was editor inchief, the you know, stanley Bob
Harris role, or whatever, jimShooter Goldwater.
And there here's what getsweird and fun comics magazine
(12:21):
association of america, alsoknown as, or or best known for
their creation of the syndicate,the comics code authority.
If you want to know more withthe comics code authority, go
back to our 50th episode aboutwhere we finally addressed the,
the, the hearings on un-Americanactivities.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, if you need to be seduced by the innocent.
Listen up.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
There's a certain doctor that will oblige your
desires in that case, and thenhe would eventually go on to be
the National Commissioner of theAnti-Defamation League.
Mlj's first comic book,published inember 1939, though
it said november on the on thebook was blue ribbon comics,
(13:10):
with the first half full colorand the last half red and white,
I guess to save money.
This first issue featured thecharacter Rangatang the Wonder
Dog.
He's my favorite Wonder Dog.
Oh, I think you're sleeping onKrypto bro.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
No, I'm not.
I like my super dogs to monkeyaround, so Not a Rangatang
Rangatang.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
It's like Possum Instead of Opossum.
Yes, that is true, that is verytrue.
I still think Ace the Bat Houndwould beat him in most
situations.
This is an old fanboy argument.
So Pep Comics, where Archiedebuted issue 22 in December
1941, debuted originally withthe Shield starring Michael
(13:58):
Chiklis, a precursor to JoeSimmons and Jack Kirby's Captain
America.
If you've ever seen it, I meanit's pretty clear they kind of
borrowed heavily.
But there were like a thousandcharacters like that.
Back then, you know, thesuperhero genre was just
burgeoning.
Patriotism was a big thingbecause we were about to enter
World War II, so there were alot of characters like this.
(14:19):
In fact, jack Kirby himselfcame up with multiple characters
, like he just threw everythingat the wall and saw what stuck.
And captain america was formarvel, the shield was for
archie archie actuallypublishing this character over a
year before captain americacame out.
Now, archibald chick, andrews,chick being his, not his middle
name, but his nickname, notArchie, yeah, chick.
(14:42):
They debuted along with BettyCooper and Jughead Jones in
their initial introduction andthey proved so popular that MLJ
became Archie ComicsPublications in 1946.
Interestingly, in the late 50sArchie Publishing had launched
its Archie Adventure series linewith a new version of the
(15:06):
Shield and new superherocharacters, and I say that
because that is not the lasttime those characters are going
to appear is when they trulycontinued to draw inspiration
from those Andy Hardy films.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Archie, betty and Veronica became a love triangle,
and that same year Archie gothis own book and was no longer
Justin Pepp.
It was in 1943 that Archie wasfeatured for the first time on a
comic book cover.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Was that a Pepp Comics cover?
Because I know there's onewhere, like the shield and
another superhero, are liftingarchie up on their shoulders and
carrying him around.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah it was in pep, number 36 in 1943, right, and
then he become pep's lead storyby number 49 and filled the
entire comic by volume 51.
But this was just the beginningof Archie really branching out
and becoming a thing not just inPep Comics and his own comic,
(16:10):
but in outside media.
Oh yeah, because it was in 1943that the radio show Archie
Andrews ran on NBC Blue Network,before moving to Mutual in 1944
and then on to NBC Radio in1945, where it ran until 1953.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Which is a long time for that kind of thing.
It really is.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
But this wasn't the only place where you'd see
Archie or Archie-related things.
Archie was becoming alegitimate character in pop
culture, to the point whereKatie Keene, a beauty queen that
was introduced in 1945, shebecame a popular pinup girl with
the GIs fighting overseas andwas put on many of their planes.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
People forget about her now, but she was just as
popular as Betty Boop was, whowas treated similarly but is no
longer remembered.
I mean, katie kane's no longerremembered.
She was touted by the publisheras, quote, america's queen of
pinups and fashions.
Yeah, it worked.
She was like the what is itmillie, the model, the marvel
(17:18):
version of that that came outthat Tim Gunn later went on to
write for Marvel.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, Millie shows up in the.
I'm pretty sure she shows up inthe Archie meets Punisher comic
.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Oh, what a great crossover.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
They make distinct references to Millie and what
was the other?
There's another one that Marvelhad around the same time, but
I'm pretty sure they both showup in Riverdale.
Wasn't Dazzler for a second, amodel, or was she just a pop
star, one that marvel had aroundthe same time?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
but I'm pretty sure they both show up in riverdale
wasn't dazzler for a second amodel, or was she just?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I mean, we're talking like in the 50s uh late 50s
early 60s, you know, like thoseromance-esque comics for girls.
Oh, yes, that they put outwhich kind of millie was a bit
of a part of that.
So pre-prez the first teenagerpresident, yeah yeah, which is
something we should totally dosometimes yeah rez could never
(18:09):
sell a single prez comic in mymany years slinging the funny
books.
It was by 1946 that archie wasso popular that the company mlj
changed their name to ArchieComics Publication Incorporated.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yep Goldwater said of Archie to the New York Times in
1973, quote he's basically asquare, but in my opinion the
squares are the backbone ofAmerica.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
This is great.
Yeah, it's fun.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Okay.
So the Archie Pantheon, whichwould spawn countless spinoffs
and other properties overmultiple forms of media, like we
just talked about, consisted ofthe titular Archie Andrews,
Jughead Jones, the goofy comicrelief a la Screech from Saved
by the Bell, if that helps youBetty Cooper, veronica Lodge,
reggie Mantle, sabrina Spellman,aka the Teenage Witch, and the
(18:59):
glamorous pop band Josie and thePussycats, the teenage witch
and the glamorous pop band josieand the pussycats, and also, as
we mentioned, katie keen,america's queen of pinups and
fashions.
Of course, these weren't theonly characters.
There were many othercharacters involved as the years
go along, because, like, howare you just going to have that
certain set of characters,especially when they have their
own spinoffs, and and for 80years?
And doesn't really make anysense.
A fun, fun tidbit, skipping itjust a second, but it doesn't
(19:22):
really matter, we'll go back tothe actual chronology.
In February 1962, in an issue ofpublisher Harvey Kurtzman's
Help Magazine featured a parodyof Archie characters in its
Goodman Beaver story calledGoodman Goes to Playboy.
(19:42):
It was illustrated by WillElder.
This is all stuff that nobodyremembers.
This is, you know, 60s sort ofrandom published you know comic
zines at the time.
The publisher, Jim Warren,received a letter on December
6th 1961.
Wow, it's so close to the Anywayaccusing help of copyright
infringement and demanding theremoval of the issue from
(20:05):
newsstands.
Warren was unable to do so.
Because how are you going to dothat?
You just had newsies deliveringmagazines to newsstands.
Were they dancing at the time?
Yes, christian Bale was there.
I mean, there was noinfrastructure to be able to
take them off the shelves andbesides, what third party seller
(20:28):
is going to want to do that?
It really couldn't have beenenforced.
You'd have to hire, like thepinkertons to go do that fucking
ridiculous.
So warren agreed to settle outof court because the other
wasn't feasible.
That way he also didn't have togo through a whole lawsuit
process like that's kind ofsomething we were hinting at
earlier when we were talkingabout other stuff.
So Warren paid Archie Comics$1,000 and then ran an apology
(20:49):
notice in the next issue of Help.
But then the story wasreprinted in the book collection
Executive Comic Book, which I'mvery curious about that now.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Can we read that while watching Executive Koala?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I tried to do so while watching Executive
Decision.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Man that's.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Funny enough.
Stephen King I mean not StephenKing, stephen Seagal dies in
both.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Just like my dreams.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, it's just like if there's justice in the world.
Yeah, so they dated theexecutive comic book Prenny came
out and Elder modified theappearance of the character so
he didn't look like the Archiecharacters anymore.
But then Archie Comics wentback and were like nope, it
still looks too much like himand they threatened another
lawsuit.
So then they settled out ofcourt again by handing over the
(21:36):
copyright to the story they hadwritten.
And then Archie held on to thecopyright of that story and
refused to allow it to bepublished by anybody.
A request from a guy namedDennis Kitchen in 1983 asked to
get the rights back to publishit in a reprint collection of
Goodman Beaver, but he wasturned down.
(21:57):
It wasn't until the ComicsJournal figured out that Archie
Comics had allowed the copyrighton that specific story to
expire that they just went aheadand reprinted it in the Comics
Journal number 262 in September2004, which you can actually get
today free as a PDF on theComics Journal website.
(22:17):
But that's how weird andlitigious they were.
That's how weird and litigiousthey were.
And if you want to talk abouthow weird it gets in the 1970s
and 1980s and we'll come back tomore of the chronology of the
thing, but I want to point outhow weird they got in this era
while still being so traditionaland buttoned down.
In the 1970s and 80s, spireChristian Comics was a line of
(22:38):
comics by Fleming H Revel comicswas a line of comics by fleming
h revel.
They obtained a license tofeature the archie characters in
several of their publications,including oh god, archie's
sunshine, s-o-n, s-h-i-n-e,archie's roller coaster,
(22:59):
archie's family album andarchie's parables, which would
be more entertaining if he wasactually like archie became like
a prophet and was actuallydoing some sort of scribe who
was actually doing parables youknow, like asap that would be.
I would be interested in thatpraise be to the archie well, I
mean it'd be, I mean it'd beentertaining.
(23:21):
Archie and his pantheon wereused to frame Christian stories.
They basically rented out theArchie characters not published
by Archie to do Christianstories during that weird Jesus
revival thing that came about inthe 70s.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, according to Mr Goldwater, who was Jewish.
That was the next thing I wasgoing to say.
It's weird because he's Jewish.
Okay, according to Mr Goldwater, who was.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Jewish.
That was the next thing I wasgoing to say.
It's weird because he's Jewish.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Oh, okay, no, no, you're right, but you said that
the sentiments in those bookswere in line with the wholesome
family message that they wantedto portray with Archie.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Not only was he Jewish, he was part of the
Anti-Defamation League, adefamation league like a jewish
activist organization.
It makes you wonder if it wasjust for the money at that point
, I mean.
I mean it kind of has to beright.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
I mean, let's be honest, there's a reason you
lump christianity and judaism soclosely, because, I mean, it's
it's a lot of like.
The core, foundational elementsof both are there, and yeah,
you're going by.
You know especially the, theold testament stuff and the you
know your, your foundationaljudeo-christian ten commandments
(24:32):
kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Then it's the problem I mean the sentiments, the
similar yeah, I mean, you're notwrong, but the problem the
problem have with that sentimentis that in the 1970s and 80s,
when appealing to theevangelical crowd, they did not
like Jews.
So I don't unless they wereChristian Zionists I don't know
(24:55):
why he thought that wassomething that he would support,
other than they were desperatefor the you know exposure and
influx of cash.
Right, I mean it's possible.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
It's also like not I don't know if I would put that
all evangelical movements withinthe 1970s were necessarily like
fully anti-jewish of course not, but at the same time, that's
that.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
that is, I mean you're appealing to a very
specific crowd that is also veryspecifically.
I mean it's the 70s man.
We're talking about, david Duke.
We're talking about, you knowlike we're talking about like an
era in which anti-Semitism wascool in the Christian church and
the evangelical Christiansphere.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
If you were doing it today, it would make more sense,
but in the 70s, I mean they doa lot of things that seem a
little you know, reaching outfor funds whenever they can
grasp at them.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Yeah it's true In a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
You know, maybe trying to put something good out
in the world, even if it's notalways going to be used in the
best way.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
I don't know if I can read into them.
Even more strangely, at thesame time they were doing this,
archie Comics launched ashort-lived fantasy and horror
imprint called Red Circle Comics.
It didn't last very long, butthey brought it back again in
the 80s as a label for, onceagain, the shield and other you
know superhero imprints thatthey had.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I find that fascinating I don't think they
lasted very long because I don'tknow how bankable it was.
The red circle was in the 70sand 80s and then dark circle was
was later with like black hoodand, yeah, shield and hangman
and stuff.
Um, it's just like actualhorror titles.
I don't really think they had alot, I mean a lot of those
(26:43):
characters, what they were doing.
They brought them back in the70s.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Well, yeah.
And then, of course, theybrought it back in the 90s.
It's Impact Comics.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Well, we haven't gotten there yet, but yeah, I
mean looking here, it's fantasy,horror, imprint, switch over to
superheroes in the 80s.
This is where you have chillingadventures.
In sorcery 1973, sabrina wasthe was like the cryptkeeper
version of, like the persontelling the stories in those
comics.
Then in the third issue wasrenamed and published under red
(27:14):
circle comics red circle redcircle actually predates mlj.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
It started as a pulp magazine in the early 30s.
It obviously changed over timeand changed many names, oh man.
So some of its original titleswere all-star adventure fiction,
complete western book okay,that just sounds like a bad
translation mystery tales, realsports, star Star Detective and
(27:40):
Marvel Science Stories and K-Zar.
K-zar, which would beeventually absorbed into Marvel.
And, yes, it was created bySilberkleit, so this was real.
It was a separate publishingcompany that then, when those
involved with both, kind ofrebooted it, because I guess
(28:01):
they fell under the same ipumbrella eventually.
This is interesting.
Isaac goodman or no?
Uh, mark goodman created.
Yeah, mark goodman created that.
His father was isaac goodman.
They did timely comics and hobocamps.
Uh, the when they they theywere jewish immigrants.
They moved from lithuania tonew york in brooklyn, and during
(28:26):
the great depression they livedin hobo camps uh or or
hoovervilles.
The goodmans, yeah, in 1929archie comics co-founder lewis
silverclight, who worked for theeastern distribution
corporation, hired goodman forhis department, assigning him
clients that included HugoGernsback.
Yeah, they basically were incahoots for like a long time and
(28:48):
together they did all of thoseones we just talked about.
Oh, okay, this is theinteresting part.
In 1937, returning from hishoneymoon in Europe, goodman and
his wife had tickets on theHindenburg, hey, but they
couldn't get seats togetherbecause they had assigned
seating.
So they made alternate plans.
They made the plan to fire itup, fire it up.
(29:09):
Well, they didn't.
They did the exact opposite ofthat.
Actually Prove it.
But interestingly enough,goodman contracted the newly
formed comic book packagerFunnies Inc to supply material
for a test comic book MarvelComics No.1, october 1939 under
Timely Publications, featuringthe Human Torch and Sub-Mariner.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I don't follow.
I want to see how that'simportant or how that's going to
be a thing.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That's relevant.
Yeah, that sold 80,000 copiesoff the top.
That would be good today.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
If you want to find out a little bit more about how
popular comic books used to bebefore they got relegated to
niche cult status only good forkids and the illiterate then go.
Listen to our Seduction of theInnocent episode and also
sub-sub-note.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
They produced a second printing of Marvel Comics
no 1 in November.
That sold 800 hundred thousandissues Sub sub Submariner point
to that.
But you remember you and Italked about, like X-Men, number
one and the absurdity of theoverprinting of that.
This one legitimately soldthese, not on speculation.
(30:19):
This one sold about a millioncopies in the year 1939 alone.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
And it's amazing to think like how few are still
extant.
So in the in the 60s, clothingand attitude and language and so
much was changing, and in thecomic books they were trying to
reflect some of that.
Katie Keene was no longerpopular and was discontinued in
1961.
And you had other things comingup, like Batman or the man from
(30:45):
Uncle.
So Archie then tried tocapitalize on some of that.
They had a Batman-likecharacter called Pureheart the
Powerful in 1965, and they alsohad a man from UNCLE spoof, the
man from R-I-V-E-R-D-A-L-E,which also hit the shelves at
the same time.
But during the Silver Age, asArchie was trying to make this
(31:09):
switch to their Mighty Comicsgroup imprint, it just didn't
ever really kick off and endedup crashing in 67.
Yep, but Archie had beenrunning for many years, almost
two decades at this point whenthe 60s began and the title was
selling half a million copies atthis point, which is crazy.
The series reached its peakrelative to the rest of the
(31:30):
market in the late 60s and early70s.
This is also the time when theymade another jump outside of
comics to doing their own thing,which was completely inventive
and long before the gorillasdominated with their own okay,
cartoon musical group.
You had the Archies in 68through 69 in their animated TV
(31:54):
series and they had their ownpop song, sugar Sugar, which has
become a quintessentialAmerican song of that era,
covered by many groups over theyears.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
One of the original writers on that song was Andy
Kim, who went on to do pop hitsin the 70s.
That's just that comes fromyears of being a karaoke
historian, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
During the 60s they also were again trying to figure
out new things to keep Archiefresh.
This is when Sabrina theteenage witch came out.
She was given her own show andhad a new series, archie's TV,
laugh Out.
They also had Josie of Josieand the Pussycats, who was
originally introduced in the 40s, receiving little attention at
(32:41):
the time, but then she donned acatsuit and started a girl band
called Josie and the Pussycatsin 1969.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
The impact of the beatles on on culture.
Essentially, the beatles reallychanged a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
They would both have their own tv shows the sabrina
one produced by filmation andthe latter one of the josing
pussycats done by hannah barbara.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
But each would make bigger splashes decades later
but I mean this isn'tunprecedented because the first
non-comic media representationof archie was in the early 40s
as a radio drama.
So they had been doing thisfrom day one.
They saw the cross-pollination,they saw throughout the decades
how to multimedia theirproperties in ways long before
(33:27):
marvel at dc did.
Well, I mean dc did it a lotbecause they had a lot of those
early batman and superman moviesor whatever serials, but still
arguably more successfully thanmarvel at dc at that point and
and marvel had to, the captainamerica serials as well, and and
you had, like you know, theshadow and the phantom and dick
tracy.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
They had their own radio shows I'm sure is what
kind of Archie was jumping on,but those were all you know
crime stories, supernatural scifi stories.
The Lone Ranger, you know, waslike Western stories and and you
had superhero stories.
But this was Archie had none ofthat.
Archie was, just like you know,a wholesome kind of family
(34:07):
drama, but focused on teenagers,so to think that they had their
own shows.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Teenagers weren't even an idea yet.
It wasn't until post-warAmerica in the 50s where
teenagers were really a concept.
This was like oh, it appealedto young people Because Archie
was never even referred to as ateenager until later.
And we've talked about thatbefore, we talked about it in a
lot of our horror series andthings like that.
Teenagers are always the centerof early horror and well, still
(34:36):
today, horror.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
So they they remained a top-selling comic for many
years into the into the 70s,even beating the sales of
superman and batman and othersuperheroes in 1973.
But by 1974 amazing spider,spider-man and Superman both
surpassed Archie Comics.
During the distribution tumultof the 1970s, archie began
focusing more on a new format,that of digests.
(34:58):
This is an important part ofcomics history.
Yeah man, I can't evenreference like a TV guide
because those things don't existanymore.
Or Reader's Digest or Reader'sDigest, yeah, but imagine like a
smaller version, maybe half thesize of a normal comic book,
bound multiple issues into athicker paperback, kind of
(35:22):
novella of comics.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
They're back.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
DC just published All-Star Superman as a digest
again.
Well, their digest versionsaren't-Star Superman as a digest
again.
Marvel did some digest comics,but that didn't last long.
Dc did have, and still does do,a smaller digest sized issues
that are designed only for kids,which is where Archie led the
(36:01):
way here to work with ComicsMagazine's Association of
America to establish grocerystore counter dumps and magazine
rack stands so they could besold both in grocery stores, in
convenience stores, inbookstores.
And in 1977, the same year thatArchie fell out of the top 10,
(36:25):
its sales were surpassed byArchie Comics Digest.
That's insane, that they werestill in the conversation in top
10, even in the 70s.
I mean again Archie's.
For all the times that Archiehas felt possibly irrelevant or
anachronistic, dated, archie hassustained and I mean that's
(36:47):
what the overarching idea ofthis podcast yes, part one and
part two will be if we do parttwo, but Archie lasts.
Archie fucks Been around.
Archie gets the F down.
Okay.
And Archie boy will survive.
It was in 1980 that Betty andVeronica finally surpassed
(37:07):
Archie sales, and in 1982, wherethe title's frequency was
reduced from monthly tobimonthly.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
See, that's how crazy it is.
Think about that in context.
During the 1970s, you had DCputting out comics like
Superman's Girlfriend Lois Laneand Superman's pal Jimmy Olsen
as side comics.
Right, there is no way in hellthose would ever have outsold
Superman, which was a relativelywell-selling comic at that
(37:36):
point.
Archie and its spinoffs areoutselling all of those.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
It also speaks to the thing we call it Archie comics,
but really this is like Archieis part of a group.
Archie really isn't anythingwithout Jughead.
Archie is anything withoutBetty and Veronica.
True, and these are charactersthat are big enough and fleshed
out enough to lead their ownlines that have become more
popular than Archie himself.
It's really the Riverdale gangis what sells and moves these
(38:04):
books and has sustained over its80 plus years these books and
has sustained over its 80 plusyears.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
I mean, it is the classic sort of ensemble.
It's popular in the same waythat the Star Trek Bridge Crew
is popular or the cast of 90210,or like the cast of Buffy,
which is I think it's probablyits closest equivalent.
You know, it's this ensemblegroup that makes up more than
the sum of its parts and somehowendures for so long, even
(38:30):
though when you and I were kids,archie was a joke.
It was an afterthought to theextent in which, like we existed
during the death of Saturdaymorning comic strips or Sunday
morning comic strips, and thoseare super ubiquitous and those
are things that everybody knew.
But they died, archie never did.
(38:51):
Archie planned to publishsuperheroes again in the 80s
with the Spectrum Comics imprint, which had, apparently they had
hired a bunch of high statusartists who were, I'm sure, were
really upset with Marvel and DCand the way they were treated.
But that whole thing collapsedbefore it ever published a
single issue.
It didn't get as far as likeJim Shooter's Defiant Comics,
(39:12):
but probably would have beenbetter.
So, even though Archie and hisgang inhabited the seemingly
time-locked town of Riverdaleand an atmosphere of the
American fantasy of the 1950s.
Archie will go on to be one ofthe most experimental publishers
in comics.
That's why we wanted to talkabout it.
Be one of the most experimentalpublishers in comics, that's
why we wanted to talk about it.
Artist Dan DiCarlo in the late1950s defined, you know, the
(39:33):
ubiquitous aesthetic of Archie,and that look would stick around
for about 50 years plus.
But that wasn't the onlyconstant about Archie.
The art style was so definingand so intrinsically tied to
Archie's identity that it kindof limited the story.
Archie was always in a lovetriangle with Benny and Veronica
.
None of the stories had anyreal stakes.
(39:54):
Writers seem to struggle with,let's say, a ceiling on the
kinds of stories they couldcredibly write because of the
wholesome nature of the wholething.
And as that kind of nostalgiabegan to fall out of favor as
years went by, archie becamekind of a joke in the mainstream
and then kind of a parody ofitself.
I mean, how many times canArchie smooth over tensions
between rival high schools,stealing each other's mascots or
(40:17):
whatever?
I mean you know what I meanLike you can't tell that story
for 80 years.
So one of the big startingpoints in the history of Archie
Comics is that Goldwater andCerberklyte's oldest sons,
richard and Michael, had takenover the company as co-CEOs when
their fathers retired in 1983.
They were dead set onpreserving the aesthetic and the
(40:38):
gestalt of Archie.
That, however, would not besustainable, and that's where we
will pick up next time.
Yes, yes, have some.
That's what we will do.
And you know what, guys?
This is where it gets weird.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
They start really experimenting.
Oh, do they Around this periodof time?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
And for the most part , successfully.
Yes and no.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
We shall get into some of that, I think, but until
we do, gentle listeners, wehope that you have enjoyed,
learned something a bit aboutArchie and yourselves while
listening to this episode.
And friendship and sharing andfriendship and the bomb.
You always gotta learn aboutthe bomb.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Look, I stopped worrying about that.
Have you learned to love it,though I did?
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Love, eat, pray the bomb.
Terrific, there's Florida inthe water.
You know that's how they'recontrolling us.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Well, that's how they turn the frogs, gay.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
The friggin' frogs.
Mm-hmm, was it the upside-downfrog maneuver?
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Is that what?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
uh, the reverse frogman, the reverse frogman.
Well, until you all do a reversefrogman while listening to this
.
We hope that you like share,subscribe If you wouldn't mind
passing along to any closeconfidants who might be
interested in archie or theother topics that we discuss.
I will give a shout out to aclose friend of mine who's like
(42:00):
the biggest archie fan I've everknown.
Maddie, if you ever listen tothis, I hope that you are proud.
I have read a bunch of archiein preparation for this and I've
thought of you the whole time.
She got archie, all the timeloved archie.
I reached out to her to likeget some thoughts.
She didn't get back to me intime.
This episode's for you, but Ihope that you guys go out of
(42:21):
your way to rate us five jugheadjones on the favorite podcast
app of your choice Ideally ApplePodcasts.
It's the best way.
Staple, staples, jugheads, Ithink, works.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
There's a joke to be made with a Jughead, but there
are so many Could have saidVeronica's, backstage, betty's,
you know.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Backstage, but a too short, might even say a blowjob,
Betty.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
but you know that's where that comes from, though
right.
Say, a blowjob, betty, but um.
You know that's where thatcomes from, though right that
all of those are based on thearchetype of Betty from Betty
and Veronica.
That's where all of those comefrom, the great circle of life
between Archie and too short, asit were you mean the circle of
life, like live action, lionKing.
And then, because we talkedabout that earlier, indeed, this
podcast is Mobius strip.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
It's like poetry, it rhymes, it's an Ouroboros.
Yes, please do help us get seenand heard.
That it would be great for us.
But you know what else would begreat for us?
That you guys come back nexttime and that you've enjoyed
yourselves, because that'sreally what this is all about.
We enjoy you, enjoying us,enjoying you.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
That sounds real dirty, but in a sweet and
progressive understanding way.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I respect that yeah, think of it like.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
This is the aspire comics version of this podcast,
you know okay well, that changedthat completely, because now I
want to know what that spiremeans, wouldn't you?
Speaker 1 (43:43):
yeah, but keep keep thinking about it, keep
contemplating, but until youcome up with a firm and erected
answer for us.
Skip.
What should they do?
Speaker 2 (43:54):
They should definitely make sure their
spires are erect.
They should then clean up afterthemselves to some sort of
reasonable degree, make surethey have tipped their waitstaff
, their KJs, their DJs, theirpodcasters, their jismoppers,
their jismoppers, their fluffers.
That's a tip the fluffer.
They're crisis doulas, they'remidwives, they're psychic
(44:15):
dolphins.
They're talking dolphins fromsequest and johnny mnemonic.
They're molested dolphins fromwell, we know what that's from
that's that's.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, yeah, we know what.
We know what that's from We'vecovered that as well.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
We have talked about that.
They're suicide dolphins fromWorld War II and make sure that
they have support of the localcomic shops and retailers.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
And all that being said, we would like to say
Godspeed for wizards.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Silence it's golden.
The silence is golden.
The silence is deafening pleasego away.
What are you, peter Gabriel, now?
Hmm, I blame it on the largeJohn Collider, I blame it on the
rain, I blame it on Archie.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I blame it on the boss-o-nova.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Gentlemen, let's broaden our minds.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Are they in the proper approach pattern for
today?
Negative, all weapons.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Now Charge the lightning field.
Maybe it's Archie.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
You know what?
That's actually a very goodpoint Because it's true, somehow
they managed to keep theirintegrity in fact, up their
integrity, though it's acompletely ubiquitous property
that, in most people's minds, isstuck in a specific era, but
(00:58):
has reinvented itself and turnedout to be quite lucrative and
innovative and inclusive andinclusive early on.
Today, if you haven't figuredit out, we're talking about
Archie comics and that weirdness, that inclusivity, innovation
is why it's a fascinating thing.
(01:19):
If we did an Archie, if wedidn't ever read an Archie
comics episode, if none of thathad happened, it would be like,
oh well, here's an old thingwe're talking about that has no
relevance today, like PrinceValiant or something.
But Archie comics is different.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
It has reinvented itself in really interesting
ways and is one of the moreadventurous publishers taking
chances today than most yeah, Imean, if you look at like
archie's history, the few thingsthat comic wise were out and
came out the same time archiedid you're looking dick tracy
(01:59):
completely anachronistic and adead property.
Green Hornet dead property.
Lone Ranger dead property.
The Shadow dead property.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Conan the.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Barbarian way past its prime and peak Namor the
Submariner still around, but,yeah, absorbed into Marvel.
Nothing really other than, likeyou know, your two big guys,
which we'll discuss.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, but I mean they are.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
there's something that has stood the test of time
has changed with the seasons,the decades, the turmoil of
society, the way we view comics,the way comics are read,
purchased, desired, manipulated,turned into other properties.
It's sustained all of that anda lot of times been at the
(02:52):
forefront of so much of that.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
And it's weird too, because none of that was
incremental.
It actually I mean, some of itwas.
I mean there were a lot ofspinoffs in the 50s and 60s.
You're just using the Pussycats, you're springing to the
Teenage Witch, that kind ofthing.
But most of its staying powertoday is because it did a
monumental change in the early21st century, which normally for
a property like that wouldspell its due, like Chuck E
(03:17):
Cheese today, certain thingsthat have been around for a long
time that suddenly changed theformat, because they think
they're changing with the timesand then they ruin it.
Archie managed to make it workand not just make it work,
succeed in a way more than itdid so before.
It found an audience thatlucrative.
But let's go back to thebeginning for a second Before we
get into that.
Let's let's go back all the wayback to the beginning.
(03:38):
I'd like to frame this with aninteresting anecdote here, an
excerpt from a Newsweek articlefrom issue 272 in 1998.
Quote all American romance andjust follow along with me here.
In 1938, love Finds Andy Hardy,the wholesome American hero
(03:58):
played by 18-year-old Hollywoodveteran Mickey Rooney, enjoys
the attentions of two newgirlfriends, played by lana
turner and judy garland.
That's a real sophie's choicethere, isn't it?
The wildly popular series of 15movies I think it's 16 actually
technically was recognized in1942 with a special oscar to MGM
(04:21):
for achievement in representingthe American way of life.
Okay, they invented an Oscarfor that.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I mean, they invent Oscars for things all the time.
They do.
They're giving Tom Cruise onethis coming year for, like I
don't know, sustaining andpioneering cinema in the past
decade or whatever, so alifetime achievement without
saying we want to get rid of you.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's what that is, because whatever, so a lifetime
achievement without saying wewant to get rid of you.
That's what that is, becausethat's what a lifetime
achievement award is it's likethanks for your cooperation on
the way out the door you go.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Well, it's also like hey, you didn't you like a
Sidney Poitier.
I think that's like the perfectlifetime achievement.
It's like, hey, here's a guywho was like a fantastic actor
in many great films and roles,meant so much to not only film
but society and really like hadan effect on humanity as a whole
.
This is an award for you torecognize you and what you meant
(05:15):
, as opposed to like hey,remember when cinema was down
and you made top gun and themission impossible films and you
want to make big blockbusterstuff and you're always out
there.
Hey, here's an award for you.
Thanks, buddy.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, that's one of those like well, who's somebody
popular that hasn't gotten anaward in a while?
Because we need to keep ratingsup or keep happy.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, or that.
Hasn't like tried to quote actAct.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Oh yeah, in a long time tried to quote act Act.
Oh yeah, in a long time.
As much as we talk about theobvious fantasy nostalgia of the
1950s post-war America, whichis often in the zeitgeist
represented by Leave it toBeaver or the Andy Griffith Show
.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
The archetype really has its origins Right off the
dome.
What?
No, those are literally thethings I was going to say.
Those are like the standardgo-tos, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, I mean, other than just citing Norman Rockwell
.
What else is there?
You know what I mean.
Like those are the big onesright In today's society.
But this archetype really hasits origin in the 16 film series
and by film I'm being generousfeaturing andy hardy, obviously
played by mickey rooney, notobvious because like he was in
(06:30):
everything, but because Imentioned it before.
It was a world that portrayedan idyllic american city called
carvel, possibly in idaho Ithink, which is what they kind
of imply in the first one ofthose, which was wholesome,
innocent, heteronormative,chauvinistic and effectively
void of people of color, notcompletely, but of those who do
(06:51):
exist, only one black characterhas any semblance of agency,
working as a mechanic at a localgarage.
It's also shockingly devoid ofthe effects of the Depression,
the Dust Bowl and World War II,and considering when those
movies came out, that is bizarre.
Also, though, same deal asPeople of Color, world War II is
briefly touched on in the formof sporadic glimpses of Rooney
(07:15):
in a military uniform, but thenarratives still remain
remarkably sanitary of thecultural impacts of that current
day's events, of the culturalimpacts of that current day's
events If you set something inthe Great Plains or the Midwest
during those years between 38and basically like what is like
46.
When they start coming out,it's like there's a huge, a lot
(07:36):
of things changed that definedAmerica in the 20th century and
they don't deal with them at all.
The series also featured AndyHardy's pursuit of a young woman
named Polly, but is oftentempted by another interested
party in most of these movies,such as Judy Garland as Betsy
(07:56):
Booth.
That name, I think, shouldresonate as though, or at least
should be, a dog whistle forwhat's later to come.
While I think today weassociate Archie more closely
with Happy Days, the Andy Hardyseries was actually its direct
inspiration.
As a matter of fact, happy Dayscharacter the Fonz, you know,
henry Winkler was inspired by acharacter from American Graffiti
(08:20):
, which itself was directlyinspired by Archie.
So, while it's easy for us tolike look backward and think
it's more like happy days, happydays is only exists really
because of archie archie's thedefinitive precursor as opposed
to a side effect right and andyand the andy hardy series was
(08:41):
the.
You know what it is and it'sfunny because it involves a lot
of the same people.
The direct precursor to StarWars was Flash Gordon and Buck
Rogers.
George Lucas, who also didAmerican Graffiti, inspired
Happy Days because of a directinfluence by Archie Comics.
Thankfully we're not going totouch on Howard the Duck.
We're not going to.
Even that's a horse of adifferent color.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
No, it shall never be touched upon.
No ducks shall be fucked.
We do not have the time norinclination.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Nope.
So Archie Comics began as MLJMagazines in 1939, ironically
publishing mostly superherostories.
It wasn't until Pep Comicsnumber 22 in December 1941 that
Archie Andrews made his firstappearance.
Famously, that was the onlyimportant thing that happened in
December 1941.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Wait, was there something I don't know?
No, nothing's coming to mind.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I can't think of anything.
Oh, they were supposed to.
In Congress, they were supposedto vote on the creation of a
new state, the state ofJefferson, december 8th 1941.
But there was something elsethat happened right before that.
They kept that from happening.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I don't know, I'm unaware of this Jefferson thing.
Are you being serious?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, I really don't know.
Oh, so, where I used to live inOregon, a certain part of
Northern California and SouthernOregon, I hated all those crazy
liberals.
Oh, this is the thing we talkedabout last week.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Never mind.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Okay, yes, but something happened.
What was it?
Was it?
It may have been Archie, it wasprobably Archie.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
It's probably Archie.
I mean, that's what, wheneversomething happens in history, I
say it's probably Archie.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
He was the second shooter on the grassy knoll?
Probably Archie.
Yeah, he.
Probably Archie.
Yeah, he faked the moon landing.
Obviously it's probably Archie.
It's probably Archie is now ournew t-shirt Predator.
Probably Archie.
The popularity of Andy Hardy,specifically having put what
would later be known in popculture as the teenager, which
is something we've talked aboutbefore.
(10:38):
Putting that front and centerfor young audiences, archie
immediately was a hit and wasgiven his own feature series a
year later.
So the Archie Menagerie, as Ilike to call it I just made that
up right now was originallycreated by publisher John L
Goldwater, artist Bob Montanasounds made up and writer Vic
Bloom Fun bit of history MauriceCoyne, louis Silberkleet and
(11:03):
John Goldwater.
They formed MLJ.
John MLK Released the MLJ files.
They did recently.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Weapons of Mass Distraction.
That's what that is.
They started publishing inSeptember 1939.
So the company I mean, if youhaven't figured it out, was
derived from the initials ofeach of their names.
It's based off our names.
Now here's the interesting part.
Coyne served as MLJ'sbookkeeper and CFO.
That was his role.
Silberkleet had a degree fromSt John's University, a law
(11:39):
degree from New York Law School,and was a licensed and
registered pharmacist, and hechose to publish comic books.
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
Yeah, I mean, it's the nextlogical step, right.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Knowing both lawyers and pharmacists.
No, that makes sense.
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
You do know both actually.
So his role at the company wasthe business side, you know,
printing the actual logistics,distribution, that kind of thing
.
John Goldwater was editor inchief, the you know, stanley Bob
Harris role, or whatever, jimShooter Goldwater.
And there here's what getsweird and fun comics magazine
(12:21):
association of america, alsoknown as, or or best known for
their creation of the syndicate,the comics code authority.
If you want to know more withthe comics code authority, go
back to our 50th episode aboutwhere we finally addressed the,
the, the hearings on un-Americanactivities.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, if you need to be seduced by the innocent.
Listen up.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
There's a certain doctor that will oblige your
desires in that case, and thenhe would eventually go on to be
the National Commissioner of theAnti-Defamation League.
Mlj's first comic book,published inember 1939, though
it said november on the on thebook was blue ribbon comics,
(13:10):
with the first half full colorand the last half red and white,
I guess to save money.
This first issue featured thecharacter Rangatang the Wonder
Dog.
He's my favorite Wonder Dog.
Oh, I think you're sleeping onKrypto bro.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
No, I'm not.
I like my super dogs to monkeyaround, so Not a Rangatang
Rangatang.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
It's like Possum Instead of Opossum.
Yes, that is true, that is verytrue.
I still think Ace the Bat Houndwould beat him in most
situations.
This is an old fanboy argument.
So Pep Comics, where Archiedebuted issue 22 in December
1941, debuted originally withthe Shield starring Michael
(13:58):
Chiklis, a precursor to JoeSimmons and Jack Kirby's Captain
America.
If you've ever seen it, I meanit's pretty clear they kind of
borrowed heavily.
But there were like a thousandcharacters like that.
Back then, you know, thesuperhero genre was just
burgeoning.
Patriotism was a big thingbecause we were about to enter
World War II, so there were alot of characters like this.
(14:19):
In fact, jack Kirby himselfcame up with multiple characters
, like he just threw everythingat the wall and saw what stuck.
And captain america was formarvel, the shield was for
archie archie actuallypublishing this character over a
year before captain americacame out.
Now, archibald chick, andrews,chick being his, not his middle
name, but his nickname, notArchie, yeah, chick.
(14:42):
They debuted along with BettyCooper and Jughead Jones in
their initial introduction andthey proved so popular that MLJ
became Archie ComicsPublications in 1946.
Interestingly, in the late 50sArchie Publishing had launched
its Archie Adventure series linewith a new version of the
(15:06):
Shield and new superherocharacters, and I say that
because that is not the lasttime those characters are going
to appear is when they trulycontinued to draw inspiration
from those Andy Hardy films.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Archie, betty and Veronica became a love triangle,
and that same year Archie gothis own book and was no longer
Justin Pepp.
It was in 1943 that Archie wasfeatured for the first time on a
comic book cover.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Was that a Pepp Comics cover?
Because I know there's onewhere, like the shield and
another superhero, are liftingarchie up on their shoulders and
carrying him around.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah it was in pep, number 36 in 1943, right, and
then he become pep's lead storyby number 49 and filled the
entire comic by volume 51.
But this was just the beginningof Archie really branching out
and becoming a thing not just inPep Comics and his own comic,
(16:10):
but in outside media.
Oh yeah, because it was in 1943that the radio show Archie
Andrews ran on NBC Blue Network,before moving to Mutual in 1944
and then on to NBC Radio in1945, where it ran until 1953.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Which is a long time for that kind of thing.
It really is.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
But this wasn't the only place where you'd see
Archie or Archie-related things.
Archie was becoming alegitimate character in pop
culture, to the point whereKatie Keene, a beauty queen that
was introduced in 1945, shebecame a popular pinup girl with
the GIs fighting overseas andwas put on many of their planes.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
People forget about her now, but she was just as
popular as Betty Boop was, whowas treated similarly but is no
longer remembered.
I mean, katie kane's no longerremembered.
She was touted by the publisheras, quote, america's queen of
pinups and fashions.
Yeah, it worked.
She was like the what is itmillie, the model, the marvel
(17:18):
version of that that came outthat Tim Gunn later went on to
write for Marvel.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, Millie shows up in the.
I'm pretty sure she shows up inthe Archie meets Punisher comic
.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Oh, what a great crossover.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
They make distinct references to Millie and what
was the other?
There's another one that Marvelhad around the same time, but
I'm pretty sure they both showup in Riverdale.
Wasn't Dazzler for a second, amodel, or was she just a pop
star, one that marvel had aroundthe same time?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
but I'm pretty sure they both show up in riverdale
wasn't dazzler for a second amodel, or was she just?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I mean, we're talking like in the 50s uh late 50s
early 60s, you know, like thoseromance-esque comics for girls.
Oh, yes, that they put outwhich kind of millie was a bit
of a part of that.
So pre-prez the first teenagerpresident, yeah yeah, which is
something we should totally dosometimes yeah rez could never
(18:09):
sell a single prez comic in mymany years slinging the funny
books.
It was by 1946 that archie wasso popular that the company mlj
changed their name to ArchieComics Publication Incorporated.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yep Goldwater said of Archie to the New York Times in
1973, quote he's basically asquare, but in my opinion the
squares are the backbone ofAmerica.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
This is great.
Yeah, it's fun.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Okay.
So the Archie Pantheon, whichwould spawn countless spinoffs
and other properties overmultiple forms of media, like we
just talked about, consisted ofthe titular Archie Andrews,
Jughead Jones, the goofy comicrelief a la Screech from Saved
by the Bell, if that helps youBetty Cooper, veronica Lodge,
reggie Mantle, sabrina Spellman,aka the Teenage Witch, and the
(18:59):
glamorous pop band Josie and thePussycats, the teenage witch
and the glamorous pop band josieand the pussycats, and also, as
we mentioned, katie keen,america's queen of pinups and
fashions.
Of course, these weren't theonly characters.
There were many othercharacters involved as the years
go along, because, like, howare you just going to have that
certain set of characters,especially when they have their
own spinoffs, and and for 80years?
And doesn't really make anysense.
A fun, fun tidbit, skipping itjust a second, but it doesn't
(19:22):
really matter, we'll go back tothe actual chronology.
In February 1962, in an issue ofpublisher Harvey Kurtzman's
Help Magazine featured a parodyof Archie characters in its
Goodman Beaver story calledGoodman Goes to Playboy.
(19:42):
It was illustrated by WillElder.
This is all stuff that nobodyremembers.
This is, you know, 60s sort ofrandom published you know comic
zines at the time.
The publisher, Jim Warren,received a letter on December
6th 1961.
Wow, it's so close to the Anywayaccusing help of copyright
infringement and demanding theremoval of the issue from
(20:05):
newsstands.
Warren was unable to do so.
Because how are you going to dothat?
You just had newsies deliveringmagazines to newsstands.
Were they dancing at the time?
Yes, christian Bale was there.
I mean, there was noinfrastructure to be able to
take them off the shelves andbesides, what third party seller
(20:28):
is going to want to do that?
It really couldn't have beenenforced.
You'd have to hire, like thepinkertons to go do that fucking
ridiculous.
So warren agreed to settle outof court because the other
wasn't feasible.
That way he also didn't have togo through a whole lawsuit
process like that's kind ofsomething we were hinting at
earlier when we were talkingabout other stuff.
So Warren paid Archie Comics$1,000 and then ran an apology
(20:49):
notice in the next issue of Help.
But then the story wasreprinted in the book collection
Executive Comic Book, which I'mvery curious about that now.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Can we read that while watching Executive Koala?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I tried to do so while watching Executive
Decision.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Man that's.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Funny enough.
Stephen King I mean not StephenKing, stephen Seagal dies in
both.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Just like my dreams.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, it's just like if there's justice in the world.
Yeah, so they dated theexecutive comic book Prenny came
out and Elder modified theappearance of the character so
he didn't look like the Archiecharacters anymore.
But then Archie Comics wentback and were like nope, it
still looks too much like himand they threatened another
lawsuit.
So then they settled out ofcourt again by handing over the
(21:36):
copyright to the story they hadwritten.
And then Archie held on to thecopyright of that story and
refused to allow it to bepublished by anybody.
A request from a guy namedDennis Kitchen in 1983 asked to
get the rights back to publishit in a reprint collection of
Goodman Beaver, but he wasturned down.
(21:57):
It wasn't until the ComicsJournal figured out that Archie
Comics had allowed the copyrighton that specific story to
expire that they just went aheadand reprinted it in the Comics
Journal number 262 in September2004, which you can actually get
today free as a PDF on theComics Journal website.
(22:17):
But that's how weird andlitigious they were.
That's how weird and litigiousthey were.
And if you want to talk abouthow weird it gets in the 1970s
and 1980s and we'll come back tomore of the chronology of the
thing, but I want to point outhow weird they got in this era
while still being so traditionaland buttoned down.
In the 1970s and 80s, spireChristian Comics was a line of
(22:38):
comics by Fleming H Revel comicswas a line of comics by fleming
h revel.
They obtained a license tofeature the archie characters in
several of their publications,including oh god, archie's
sunshine, s-o-n, s-h-i-n-e,archie's roller coaster,
(22:59):
archie's family album andarchie's parables, which would
be more entertaining if he wasactually like archie became like
a prophet and was actuallydoing some sort of scribe who
was actually doing parables youknow, like asap that would be.
I would be interested in thatpraise be to the archie well, I
mean it'd be, I mean it'd beentertaining.
(23:21):
Archie and his pantheon wereused to frame Christian stories.
They basically rented out theArchie characters not published
by Archie to do Christianstories during that weird Jesus
revival thing that came about inthe 70s.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, according to Mr Goldwater, who was Jewish.
That was the next thing I wasgoing to say.
It's weird because he's Jewish.
Okay, according to Mr Goldwater, who was.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Jewish.
That was the next thing I wasgoing to say.
It's weird because he's Jewish.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Oh, okay, no, no, you're right, but you said that
the sentiments in those bookswere in line with the wholesome
family message that they wantedto portray with Archie.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Not only was he Jewish, he was part of the
Anti-Defamation League, adefamation league like a jewish
activist organization.
It makes you wonder if it wasjust for the money at that point
, I mean.
I mean it kind of has to beright.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
I mean, let's be honest, there's a reason you
lump christianity and judaism soclosely, because, I mean, it's
it's a lot of like.
The core, foundational elementsof both are there, and yeah,
you're going by.
You know especially the, theold testament stuff and the you
know your, your foundationaljudeo-christian ten commandments
(24:32):
kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Then it's the problem I mean the sentiments, the
similar yeah, I mean, you're notwrong, but the problem the
problem have with that sentimentis that in the 1970s and 80s,
when appealing to theevangelical crowd, they did not
like Jews.
So I don't unless they wereChristian Zionists I don't know
(24:55):
why he thought that wassomething that he would support,
other than they were desperatefor the you know exposure and
influx of cash.
Right, I mean it's possible.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
It's also like not I don't know if I would put that
all evangelical movements withinthe 1970s were necessarily like
fully anti-jewish of course not, but at the same time, that's
that.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
that is, I mean you're appealing to a very
specific crowd that is also veryspecifically.
I mean it's the 70s man.
We're talking about, david Duke.
We're talking about, you knowlike we're talking about like an
era in which anti-Semitism wascool in the Christian church and
the evangelical Christiansphere.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
If you were doing it today, it would make more sense,
but in the 70s, I mean they doa lot of things that seem a
little you know, reaching outfor funds whenever they can
grasp at them.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Yeah it's true In a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
You know, maybe trying to put something good out
in the world, even if it's notalways going to be used in the
best way.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
I don't know if I can read into them.
Even more strangely, at thesame time they were doing this,
archie Comics launched ashort-lived fantasy and horror
imprint called Red Circle Comics.
It didn't last very long, butthey brought it back again in
the 80s as a label for, onceagain, the shield and other you
know superhero imprints thatthey had.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I find that fascinating I don't think they
lasted very long because I don'tknow how bankable it was.
The red circle was in the 70sand 80s and then dark circle was
was later with like black hoodand, yeah, shield and hangman
and stuff.
Um, it's just like actualhorror titles.
I don't really think they had alot, I mean a lot of those
(26:43):
characters, what they were doing.
They brought them back in the70s.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Well, yeah.
And then, of course, theybrought it back in the 90s.
It's Impact Comics.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Well, we haven't gotten there yet, but yeah, I
mean looking here, it's fantasy,horror, imprint, switch over to
superheroes in the 80s.
This is where you have chillingadventures.
In sorcery 1973, sabrina wasthe was like the cryptkeeper
version of, like the persontelling the stories in those
comics.
Then in the third issue wasrenamed and published under red
(27:14):
circle comics red circle redcircle actually predates mlj.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
It started as a pulp magazine in the early 30s.
It obviously changed over timeand changed many names, oh man.
So some of its original titleswere all-star adventure fiction,
complete western book okay,that just sounds like a bad
translation mystery tales, realsports, star Star Detective and
(27:40):
Marvel Science Stories and K-Zar.
K-zar, which would beeventually absorbed into Marvel.
And, yes, it was created bySilberkleit, so this was real.
It was a separate publishingcompany that then, when those
involved with both, kind ofrebooted it, because I guess
(28:01):
they fell under the same ipumbrella eventually.
This is interesting.
Isaac goodman or no?
Uh, mark goodman created.
Yeah, mark goodman created that.
His father was isaac goodman.
They did timely comics and hobocamps.
Uh, the when they they theywere jewish immigrants.
They moved from lithuania tonew york in brooklyn, and during
(28:26):
the great depression they livedin hobo camps uh or or
hoovervilles.
The goodmans, yeah, in 1929archie comics co-founder lewis
silverclight, who worked for theeastern distribution
corporation, hired goodman forhis department, assigning him
clients that included HugoGernsback.
Yeah, they basically were incahoots for like a long time and
(28:48):
together they did all of thoseones we just talked about.
Oh, okay, this is theinteresting part.
In 1937, returning from hishoneymoon in Europe, goodman and
his wife had tickets on theHindenburg, hey, but they
couldn't get seats togetherbecause they had assigned
seating.
So they made alternate plans.
They made the plan to fire itup, fire it up.
(29:09):
Well, they didn't.
They did the exact opposite ofthat.
Actually Prove it.
But interestingly enough,goodman contracted the newly
formed comic book packagerFunnies Inc to supply material
for a test comic book MarvelComics No.1, october 1939 under
Timely Publications, featuringthe Human Torch and Sub-Mariner.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I don't follow.
I want to see how that'simportant or how that's going to
be a thing.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That's relevant.
Yeah, that sold 80,000 copiesoff the top.
That would be good today.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
If you want to find out a little bit more about how
popular comic books used to bebefore they got relegated to
niche cult status only good forkids and the illiterate then go.
Listen to our Seduction of theInnocent episode and also
sub-sub-note.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
They produced a second printing of Marvel Comics
no 1 in November.
That sold 800 hundred thousandissues Sub sub Submariner point
to that.
But you remember you and Italked about, like X-Men, number
one and the absurdity of theoverprinting of that.
This one legitimately soldthese, not on speculation.
(30:19):
This one sold about a millioncopies in the year 1939 alone.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
And it's amazing to think like how few are still
extant.
So in the in the 60s, clothingand attitude and language and so
much was changing, and in thecomic books they were trying to
reflect some of that.
Katie Keene was no longerpopular and was discontinued in
1961.
And you had other things comingup, like Batman or the man from
(30:45):
Uncle.
So Archie then tried tocapitalize on some of that.
They had a Batman-likecharacter called Pureheart the
Powerful in 1965, and they alsohad a man from UNCLE spoof, the
man from R-I-V-E-R-D-A-L-E,which also hit the shelves at
the same time.
But during the Silver Age, asArchie was trying to make this
(31:09):
switch to their Mighty Comicsgroup imprint, it just didn't
ever really kick off and endedup crashing in 67.
Yep, but Archie had beenrunning for many years, almost
two decades at this point whenthe 60s began and the title was
selling half a million copies atthis point, which is crazy.
The series reached its peakrelative to the rest of the
(31:30):
market in the late 60s and early70s.
This is also the time when theymade another jump outside of
comics to doing their own thing,which was completely inventive
and long before the gorillasdominated with their own okay,
cartoon musical group.
You had the Archies in 68through 69 in their animated TV
(31:54):
series and they had their ownpop song, sugar Sugar, which has
become a quintessentialAmerican song of that era,
covered by many groups over theyears.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
One of the original writers on that song was Andy
Kim, who went on to do pop hitsin the 70s.
That's just that comes fromyears of being a karaoke
historian, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
During the 60s they also were again trying to figure
out new things to keep Archiefresh.
This is when Sabrina theteenage witch came out.
She was given her own show andhad a new series, archie's TV,
laugh Out.
They also had Josie of Josieand the Pussycats, who was
originally introduced in the 40s, receiving little attention at
(32:41):
the time, but then she donned acatsuit and started a girl band
called Josie and the Pussycatsin 1969.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
The impact of the beatles on on culture.
Essentially, the beatles reallychanged a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
They would both have their own tv shows the sabrina
one produced by filmation andthe latter one of the josing
pussycats done by hannah barbara.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
But each would make bigger splashes decades later
but I mean this isn'tunprecedented because the first
non-comic media representationof archie was in the early 40s
as a radio drama.
So they had been doing thisfrom day one.
They saw the cross-pollination,they saw throughout the decades
how to multimedia theirproperties in ways long before
(33:27):
marvel at dc did.
Well, I mean dc did it a lotbecause they had a lot of those
early batman and superman moviesor whatever serials, but still
arguably more successfully thanmarvel at dc at that point and
and marvel had to, the captainamerica serials as well, and and
you had, like you know, theshadow and the phantom and dick
tracy.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
They had their own radio shows I'm sure is what
kind of Archie was jumping on,but those were all you know
crime stories, supernatural scifi stories.
The Lone Ranger, you know, waslike Western stories and and you
had superhero stories.
But this was Archie had none ofthat.
Archie was, just like you know,a wholesome kind of family
(34:07):
drama, but focused on teenagers,so to think that they had their
own shows.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Teenagers weren't even an idea yet.
It wasn't until post-warAmerica in the 50s where
teenagers were really a concept.
This was like oh, it appealedto young people Because Archie
was never even referred to as ateenager until later.
And we've talked about thatbefore, we talked about it in a
lot of our horror series andthings like that.
Teenagers are always the centerof early horror and well, still
(34:36):
today, horror.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
So they they remained a top-selling comic for many
years into the into the 70s,even beating the sales of
superman and batman and othersuperheroes in 1973.
But by 1974 amazing spider,spider-man and Superman both
surpassed Archie Comics.
During the distribution tumultof the 1970s, archie began
focusing more on a new format,that of digests.
(34:58):
This is an important part ofcomics history.
Yeah man, I can't evenreference like a TV guide
because those things don't existanymore.
Or Reader's Digest or Reader'sDigest, yeah, but imagine like a
smaller version, maybe half thesize of a normal comic book,
bound multiple issues into athicker paperback, kind of
(35:22):
novella of comics.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
They're back.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
DC just published All-Star Superman as a digest
again.
Well, their digest versionsaren't-Star Superman as a digest
again.
Marvel did some digest comics,but that didn't last long.
Dc did have, and still does do,a smaller digest sized issues
that are designed only for kids,which is where Archie led the
(36:01):
way here to work with ComicsMagazine's Association of
America to establish grocerystore counter dumps and magazine
rack stands so they could besold both in grocery stores, in
convenience stores, inbookstores.
And in 1977, the same year thatArchie fell out of the top 10,
(36:25):
its sales were surpassed byArchie Comics Digest.
That's insane, that they werestill in the conversation in top
10, even in the 70s.
I mean again Archie's.
For all the times that Archiehas felt possibly irrelevant or
anachronistic, dated, archie hassustained and I mean that's
(36:47):
what the overarching idea ofthis podcast yes, part one and
part two will be if we do parttwo, but Archie lasts.
Archie fucks Been around.
Archie gets the F down.
Okay.
And Archie boy will survive.
It was in 1980 that Betty andVeronica finally surpassed
(37:07):
Archie sales, and in 1982, wherethe title's frequency was
reduced from monthly tobimonthly.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
See, that's how crazy it is.
Think about that in context.
During the 1970s, you had DCputting out comics like
Superman's Girlfriend Lois Laneand Superman's pal Jimmy Olsen
as side comics.
Right, there is no way in hellthose would ever have outsold
Superman, which was a relativelywell-selling comic at that
(37:36):
point.
Archie and its spinoffs areoutselling all of those.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
It also speaks to the thing we call it Archie comics,
but really this is like Archieis part of a group.
Archie really isn't anythingwithout Jughead.
Archie is anything withoutBetty and Veronica.
True, and these are charactersthat are big enough and fleshed
out enough to lead their ownlines that have become more
popular than Archie himself.
It's really the Riverdale gangis what sells and moves these
(38:04):
books and has sustained over its80 plus years these books and
has sustained over its 80 plusyears.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
I mean, it is the classic sort of ensemble.
It's popular in the same waythat the Star Trek Bridge Crew
is popular or the cast of 90210,or like the cast of Buffy,
which is I think it's probablyits closest equivalent.
You know, it's this ensemblegroup that makes up more than
the sum of its parts and somehowendures for so long, even
(38:30):
though when you and I were kids,archie was a joke.
It was an afterthought to theextent in which, like we existed
during the death of Saturdaymorning comic strips or Sunday
morning comic strips, and thoseare super ubiquitous and those
are things that everybody knew.
But they died, archie never did.
(38:51):
Archie planned to publishsuperheroes again in the 80s
with the Spectrum Comics imprint, which had, apparently they had
hired a bunch of high statusartists who were, I'm sure, were
really upset with Marvel and DCand the way they were treated.
But that whole thing collapsedbefore it ever published a
single issue.
It didn't get as far as likeJim Shooter's Defiant Comics,
(39:12):
but probably would have beenbetter.
So, even though Archie and hisgang inhabited the seemingly
time-locked town of Riverdaleand an atmosphere of the
American fantasy of the 1950s.
Archie will go on to be one ofthe most experimental publishers
in comics.
That's why we wanted to talkabout it.
Be one of the most experimentalpublishers in comics, that's
why we wanted to talk about it.
Artist Dan DiCarlo in the late1950s defined, you know, the
(39:33):
ubiquitous aesthetic of Archie,and that look would stick around
for about 50 years plus.
But that wasn't the onlyconstant about Archie.
The art style was so definingand so intrinsically tied to
Archie's identity that it kindof limited the story.
Archie was always in a lovetriangle with Benny and Veronica
.
None of the stories had anyreal stakes.
(39:54):
Writers seem to struggle with,let's say, a ceiling on the
kinds of stories they couldcredibly write because of the
wholesome nature of the wholething.
And as that kind of nostalgiabegan to fall out of favor as
years went by, archie becamekind of a joke in the mainstream
and then kind of a parody ofitself.
I mean, how many times canArchie smooth over tensions
between rival high schools,stealing each other's mascots or
(40:17):
whatever?
I mean you know what I meanLike you can't tell that story
for 80 years.
So one of the big startingpoints in the history of Archie
Comics is that Goldwater andCerberklyte's oldest sons,
richard and Michael, had takenover the company as co-CEOs when
their fathers retired in 1983.
They were dead set onpreserving the aesthetic and the
(40:38):
gestalt of Archie.
That, however, would not besustainable, and that's where we
will pick up next time.
Yes, yes, have some.
That's what we will do.
And you know what, guys?
This is where it gets weird.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
They start really experimenting.
Oh, do they Around this periodof time?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
And for the most part , successfully.
Yes and no.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
We shall get into some of that, I think, but until
we do, gentle listeners, wehope that you have enjoyed,
learned something a bit aboutArchie and yourselves while
listening to this episode.
And friendship and sharing andfriendship and the bomb.
You always gotta learn aboutthe bomb.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Look, I stopped worrying about that.
Have you learned to love it,though I did?
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Love, eat, pray the bomb.
Terrific, there's Florida inthe water.
You know that's how they'recontrolling us.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Well, that's how they turn the frogs, gay.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
The friggin' frogs.
Mm-hmm, was it the upside-downfrog maneuver?
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Is that what?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
uh, the reverse frogman, the reverse frogman.
Well, until you all do a reversefrogman while listening to this
.
We hope that you like share,subscribe If you wouldn't mind
passing along to any closeconfidants who might be
interested in archie or theother topics that we discuss.
I will give a shout out to aclose friend of mine who's like
(42:00):
the biggest archie fan I've everknown.
Maddie, if you ever listen tothis, I hope that you are proud.
I have read a bunch of archiein preparation for this and I've
thought of you the whole time.
She got archie, all the timeloved archie.
I reached out to her to likeget some thoughts.
She didn't get back to me intime.
This episode's for you, but Ihope that you guys go out of
(42:21):
your way to rate us five jugheadjones on the favorite podcast
app of your choice Ideally ApplePodcasts.
It's the best way.
Staple, staples, jugheads, Ithink, works.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
There's a joke to be made with a Jughead, but there
are so many Could have saidVeronica's, backstage, betty's,
you know.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Backstage, but a too short, might even say a blowjob,
Betty.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
but you know that's where that comes from, though
right.
Say, a blowjob, betty, but um.
You know that's where thatcomes from, though right that
all of those are based on thearchetype of Betty from Betty
and Veronica.
That's where all of those comefrom, the great circle of life
between Archie and too short, asit were you mean the circle of
life, like live action, lionKing.
And then, because we talkedabout that earlier, indeed, this
podcast is Mobius strip.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
It's like poetry, it rhymes, it's an Ouroboros.
Yes, please do help us get seenand heard.
That it would be great for us.
But you know what else would begreat for us?
That you guys come back nexttime and that you've enjoyed
yourselves, because that'sreally what this is all about.
We enjoy you, enjoying us,enjoying you.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
That sounds real dirty, but in a sweet and
progressive understanding way.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I respect that yeah, think of it like.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
This is the aspire comics version of this podcast,
you know okay well, that changedthat completely, because now I
want to know what that spiremeans, wouldn't you?
Speaker 1 (43:43):
yeah, but keep keep thinking about it, keep
contemplating, but until youcome up with a firm and erected
answer for us.
Skip.
What should they do?
Speaker 2 (43:54):
They should definitely make sure their
spires are erect.
They should then clean up afterthemselves to some sort of
reasonable degree, make surethey have tipped their waitstaff
, their KJs, their DJs, theirpodcasters, their jismoppers,
their jismoppers, their fluffers.
That's a tip the fluffer.
They're crisis doulas, they'remidwives, they're psychic
(44:15):
dolphins.
They're talking dolphins fromsequest and johnny mnemonic.
They're molested dolphins fromwell, we know what that's from
that's that's.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, yeah, we know what.
We know what that's from We'vecovered that as well.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
We have talked about that.
They're suicide dolphins fromWorld War II and make sure that
they have support of the localcomic shops and retailers.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
And all that being said, we would like to say
Godspeed for wizards.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Silence it's golden.
The silence is golden.
The silence is deafening pleasego away.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.