Tron Part 2: On Like Tron

What keeps pulling us back to the grid when the box office never quite follows? We dive into the whole Tron continuum—from the 1982 cult seed and the overlooked Tron 2.0, through Joseph Kosinski’s neon‑sleek Tron Legacy and the bridge‑building of Tron: Uprising, to the new red‑glow reality of Tron Ares. Along the way, we tackle the question fans argue and studios dodge: is Tron actually sci‑fi, or is it fantasy that borrows the language of computers to tell a myth about creators and creation?

We revisit the ‘82 release headwinds against E.T., the home video era that gave Tron a second life, and the game that quietly solved problems the films wouldn’t touch—interconnected systems, corporate corruption, and viruses as character. Then we contrast Legacy’s towering strengths—world‑class design and that Daft Punk score—with its habit of hinting at great themes and jumping to the next set piece. We talk de‑aging that breaks immersion, the ISO genocide that begs for deeper stakes, and why treating the grid as a pocket universe makes the story read cleanly as fantasy.

From there, we unpack Ares: fabrication lasers that print bodies, light cycles roaring down city avenues, and a Pinocchio arc that raises huge ethical questions without living in the answers. We debate why bringing grid logic into the real world collapses internal rules, how soundtracks keep rescuing the vibe (hello, Nine Inch Nails), and why executives remain convinced Tron can still become the thing we remember it to be. Our take: the concept is timeless, the execution needs courage—consistent rules, character‑driven choices, and ideas that don’t blink when the action starts.

If you love the glow but crave the follow‑through, this one’s for you. Listen, share with a fellow program, and leave us a review with your verdict: should Tron lean full fantasy or build a harder sci‑fi spine? Subscribe so you don’t miss what derezzes next.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Man, we should probably tear the roof off this

(00:01):
sucker.
Gentlemen, let's broaden ourminds.

SPEAKER_03 (00:06):
Are they the proper approach for today?

SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
Negative.

SPEAKER_02 (00:23):
Charge the lightning field.

SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
The generative AI is terrible.
Speaking of AI.
Speaking of not reaching itslauded potential when it comes
to commentary or even justdefinitions of artificial
intelligence, we're talkingtoday once again about Tron.
True.

SPEAKER_02 (00:47):
It is July 9th, 1982.
Tron has come out to the bigscreen.
But if you were alive and aroundthen, you probably didn't go see
it.
In its fifth week of release,E.T.
the Extraterrestrial was stilldominating the box office.
Tron opened in second place withfour point eight million dollars

(01:08):
compared to the 12.8 millionthat ET was making.
That is just enough to beat outuh a few other films at the
time.
Rocky III at 4.5 million,Firefox at 3.6 million, and
Poltergeist, who re-entered thetop five in its sixth weekend at
3.2 million.

(01:29):
Tron would get released on VHSuh in 1983.
VHS was still fairly new, again,battling with the the great uh
Pepsi Coke debate of its time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:40):
Even though people sleep on the whole RCA uh uh
disc thing.
Remember, do you remember thewhat's it called?
The um they were basically justbig floppy disks, or you know,
oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
Well not necessarily floppy disks, more like um the
later.

SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Well, we we still called them floppy discs because
they were later, the otherdiscs, the hard discs.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Yeah.
I never actually encountered oneof those machines, but I have
seen them.
I'm aware of them.

SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
My grandparents had one, and that's all they bought
stuff on.
They didn't bother with VHS.
I thought they had laserdiscs.
They replaced that with thelaserdisc.
Oh, okay.
But they were like super earlyadopters of everything.
They had fucking satellite uhthey had satellite cable in like
1987.
So like we had an enormoussatellite dish in the backyard.

SPEAKER_02 (02:32):
Yeah.
You were like part of the SETIprogram at the time.
Those things were huge.

SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
I know.
They had a CD player in like1990 when they cost like$800.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 (02:43):
Well, Tron was on uh VHS, but maybe you weren't able
to see it.
It kind of became a cult featurefor a bit.
It was re-released in 85, andthen again in 95 by Walt Disney
home video, before it probablywent into the vault, you know,
as all good entertainmentshould.
Yes, like Song of the South.

(03:03):
But it would be 28 years laterthat a new Tron would emerge.
A better Tron?
Debatable, at least a newgeneration, as the legacy sequel
of Tron lives on.
Called Legacy.

SPEAKER_01 (03:20):
Oh, that's on the nose.
It's uh 28 years later, DannyBoyle's Tron premieres called
Tron Legacy.

SPEAKER_02 (03:31):
God, I can't even imagine what that could be a
better movie.
I don't know if there's twoaesthetics that are further
apart from each other.

SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
Yeah, that's a good point.
His whole thing is he likes tofilm to make it feel like the
time in which it was created.
In 28 days later, he filmed onSony handicams because that's
what with the current modernconsumer available technology
was.
And then in 28 years later, heshot on an on a series of
iPhones because that's consumer,you know, available at the time.

(04:03):
What would he do with Tron?
I have no idea.
Super 8?
Honestly.
Cam?
I don't fucking know.

SPEAKER_02 (04:10):
A high eight, maybe?
I don't know.
He did make sunshine, so it'snot that he can't do a sci-fi, a
visually stunning sci-fiexperience.

SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
And that wasn't one of those ones he just did for
money.
That was actually one uh thatwas a passion project.
And I mean that it's sunshineshould be a pod of its own at
some point.
Yeah, it's half a good movie andthen half of a crazy movie.

SPEAKER_02 (04:32):
Uh two-thirds of a good movie.
Uh actually two-thirds of agreat movie, and then the rest
of it.

SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
And then the rest of it.

SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
But that's for another time.

SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Yeah, we could debate that too, because but
sure.
I yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm in asimilar wavelength.

SPEAKER_02 (04:47):
But today we are moving past the 1980s Tron into
the new Tron.
Uh, and we shall discuss itsups, its downs, and its whys.
As Tron, Tron Legacy, and TronAres all fairly underperformed
the box office.
Yep.
Became somewhat of cult hitsyears later.

SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
Let's start off with the timeline to get to where we
are today first, and then we cango down the line of sort of
existential commentary and andcritique.
So Tron was one of those thingsthat, like, you know, geeky kids
like you and I were kind oflike, oh yeah, I remember Tron,
even though we probably didn'treally remember it because

(05:30):
nobody really watched it, it washard to find.
But we liked, we always had thisidea of Tron, and we were like,
cool, I want another Tron.
It'd be cool if they revisitedTron.
Or we did see Tron and we werelike, Oh, I hope they come out
with a more updated Tron thatmakes more sense because now
that people know kind of howcomputers work.
But that didn't happen for avery, very long time, and for

(05:52):
many reasons, most of themhaving to do with the hierarchy
of Disney and its economicsituation.
But a highly, highly anticipatedgame, which I mean it's the
point of Tron, Tron 2.0premiered in August of 2003.
It was a direct sequel to Tron,and I think people really,

(06:13):
really gravitated toward itbecause people were like, well,
this is probably the only Tronwe're gonna get.
I remember reading about, youknow, in various websites and
what have you, magazines andwhat have you, about how people
kept pitching Tron sequels andTron reboots, and it just never
happened.
And it felt like it was nevergonna happen.
And so Tron 2.0 comes out as ayou know a PC and Mac game, and

(06:38):
it's weird because theycategorize it as a first-person
shooter, which is like not theformat you would really think a
Tron game would be.
Like, if anything, it'd be aracing game.
That would make more sense tome.

SPEAKER_02 (06:52):
Yeah, or some type of gladiatorial thing.
Sure.
Or a a pairing of the two.

SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
I mean, I'd I'd be fine with that.
I mean, switch back and forth,which this game does switch back
and forth between stuff, in in areally interesting way,
actually.
So the the game focuses aroundthe son of Bruce Box Leitner's
character, Alan Bradley.
His name is Jethro.

SPEAKER_03 (07:14):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
Otherwise known as Jet Bradley.
He discovered oil on the grid.
Texas T.
Wow.
Cindy Morgan, the femaleprotagonist from the original
Tron, who nobody remembersbecause they downplayed her so
hard.
She shows up.
And then we have, you know,various other characters'

(07:35):
artificial intelligences,Rebecca Romains in it.
Sid Meade, the famous andfuturist designer, does a famous
redesign of the light cycle, uh,which is kind of a big get.
They basically try to reframethe first film and make it make
sense, but also still livewithin that world, which Tron

(07:55):
Legacy will also half-ass kindof do.
But in in Tron 2.0, you kind oflike hop between computer
mainframes and the emergence ofdevices like PDAs, which I think
is fascinating, and kind ofhelps explain how Master Control
was able to do what he did, likeassimilating other programs.

(08:19):
Because you'd think computerswere all siloed if there was no
internet, but this kind of goesout of its way to say, even
though there is an internet, youkind of hop between these
different types of computersbecause they're all hooked up to
some sort of mainframe or datacenter or whatever.
So NCOM gets bought out by acompany called Fcon or F yeah, I

(08:41):
think it's Fcon.

SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
I don't know.
Do we need to get super in-depthon the Tron 2.0?

SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
Well, so the idea is that it gets bought out by
another company.
At the end of Tron, Flynnbecomes the CEO of NCOM, and
there's obstensibly a white hatorganization just doing
programming.
Then they get bought out by thisbigger corporation who does not
have good intentions, and theykind of corrupt the whole thing.
And so this game, everythingthat I've seen, does a really

(09:10):
interesting job of expanding thelore and trying to make it not
only make more sense butrelevant, and kind of like
expanding the narrative of theuniverse.
It's kind of mixed as to how itis received, but most people
seem to take it positively.
Here's an interesting example.
It all takes place, quote,inside a computer, which we I

(09:33):
think we all can agree, well,not all, but you and I kind of
like surmise that it may be justFlynn's interpretation uh of how
to make sense of that, of thewhat's happening.
It's all neon lights and thegrid and all that.
But then there is all there arescenes where you you hop to
portable devices like PDAs, andinstead of black and neon,

(09:53):
they're all just black andwhite, which I think is really
interesting.
And also more pleasant to lookat than if you did it like Game
Boy Greed, because that would bethat would just be awful.
The idea is that you go around,you collect keys, you go, you
move up to different levels,which means you move from
mainframe to server to PDA backto a mainframe, yada yada yada.

(10:15):
That's kind of how it works.
There's a bunch of in-jokes init, but the idea that Fcon or
Future Control Industriesinstead of Master Control has
now taken over.
They do this interesting thingwhere an executive at Fcon who
finds out what Flynn had donetries to digitize himself to put
himself in the game, but then itbecomes corrupted and he becomes

(10:38):
a virus.
And that virus is one of yourantagonists, and you have it
like chases you down and triesto kill you.
It becomes like a ghostishvillain inside the game.
So I think that's an interestinginnovation.
There is a big lore behind it.
We don't have to get into a lotof it other than to say it's

(11:01):
interesting and it expands onthe original.
The reason we don't have to getinto it too much is because it's
immediately wiped out of canonwhen Tron Legacy comes out.
Yep.
So Tron Legacy.

SPEAKER_02 (11:15):
Yeah.
Tron Legacy.

SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
Oh, I would like to say before before that though,
after Tron 2.8 came out, it didhave a comic book tie-in.
It was the video game did?
Yes.
Uh by Slave Labor Graphics.
I don't are they even aroundanymore?
I don't think they're aroundanymore.

SPEAKER_02 (11:31):
I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
I don't think so either.
It was a sequel mini-seriescalled Tron Ghost in the
Machine, which sounds kind ofawesome, actually.
Do you guys like Ghost in theGhost in the Shell?
And do you guys like Tron?
Well, let's let's uh let's let'sdo both.
And also, by the way, that gamewas ported to the mobile phones
back in 2003 and four.
Tron 2.0 Light Cycles, which isessentially Snake, and then Tron

(11:54):
2.0 Discs of Tron.
And all of these things werelater ported to the Xbox, which
you could play until 2010, whenTron Legacy came out, around
when Tron Legacy came out, andthen they killed it.
But there were backup servers,it's called Insignia, if I
remember right.
And you can still today you canstill play them.
I think it's available for Steamnow on the PC if you want to.

(12:16):
Is it okay?

SPEAKER_02 (12:17):
If you want.
I think so.

SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
And there are a fuck ton of Tron fan games out there,
too.
If you go on Pyko 8 or basicallyjust go to itch.io and you're
gonna find a thousand Tron Tronfan-made games, and most of them
are just snake.

SPEAKER_02 (12:31):
Again, it speaks to a why the game came out.
Uh, you know, it's like anostalgic property that seemed
to be kind of ahead of its time,speaking about, you know,
something that's that's coming.
The combining of man andmachine, which is something that
I think prompts the sequel thatfinally comes out in 2010, Tron

(12:52):
Legacy.
That was done by JosephKaczynski.
This was his first feature filmthat he had made.
He was famous for doing a Gearsof War commercial that
highlighted Gary Jewell's MadWorld, the Tears for Fears
cover.

SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Well, from Dottie Darko.

SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
Yeah, but he hadn't made a movie before.
He has since gone on to be abig-time studio director.
Uh he's worked a lot with TomCruise, both in Oblivion, which
if you know the aesthetic ofTron and the aesthetic of
Oblivion, you definitely seesimilarities.
I think he worked with the samecinematographer as well.
And also another legacy sequel,Top Gun Maverick.

SPEAKER_01 (13:33):
Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 (13:34):
Yeah.
He had, I think he just did F1as well, if I remember right.

SPEAKER_01 (13:40):
So after Top Gun, I could totally see that.

SPEAKER_02 (13:42):
But Tron Legacy was was his his first foray into the
world of big time movies.

SPEAKER_01 (13:50):
That is a lot to put on a guy for his first fucking
directorial debut.
I mean, that's that's hefty.

SPEAKER_02 (13:56):
Yeah, he was hired to make a proof of concept reel.
They showed that at Comic-Con2008.
Yep.
Because it received such a greatreception.
Disney Greenlit the$170 millionsequel.

SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
Which is crazy for 2010.

SPEAKER_02 (14:12):
They were shoving some chips in on Tron and
focusing a lot on it's a movieset in a computer world.
So computer graphics are gonnabe a big part of this.
You want you know the aestheticto be there, you want the
soundscape to be there.
They brought in Daft Punk to dothe music on that.

(14:32):
Yes, a stroke of genius, to beperfectly honest.
It is.
Uh, I think a lot of people whenit originally came out, it
wasn't the most well-receivedfilm critically.
You know, some people said thisis just uh, you know, a two-hour
long Daft Punk video, which I'mfine with.
I'm totally fine with.

(14:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (14:53):
Uh hey, that soundtrack is so effing good.
I remember people being reallydisappointed with it, and I was
like, why?
It's a score, not a soundtrack.
Yeah.
This isn't Interstellar 5555,though it makes just about as
much sense.
There is no soundtrack for Tron,there's a score, and Daft Punk

(15:13):
for their first one fuckingkills it.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:17):
It's completely on vibe, you know, with the whole
concept.
Absolutely.
It was it was a stroke of geniuspairing this world, uh, the
visual style of Kaczynski andhis idea of what Tron could look
like and that sound.
It worked.
That was probably the best bitabout Tron Legacy, if we're

(15:38):
being honest.

SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
Yeah, it's the best part of Tron Legacy for sure.
Because it's not necessarily thede-aging effects, because those
are bad.
No.

SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
Tron Legacy came out almost to the day a year after
the first Avatar.
You watch Tron Legacy and thenyou go watch Avatar, or you
watch Lord of the Rings thatcame out before Tron Legacy, and
you're like, how is it so bad?

SPEAKER_01 (16:02):
If you remember, even X-Men 3 did D-Aging with
Ian McKellen and PatrickStewart.
And I remember that looking bad,and it does look bad, but it
still kind of looks better thanwhat they do here.

SPEAKER_02 (16:14):
So they also often do.
I mean, de-aging, I think it'sgotten better as time has gone
on.
You know, the machinery and thesoftware has gotten so much
better.
It always has that uncannyvalley, though, that kind of
pulls you out.
So when you do it, you need todo it in the background.

(16:35):
Utilize shadows, utilizedistance.
It's when you have the characterfull front and they're speaking,
and the the mouth is notmatching the words, and it's not
natural movement, expression.
Yeah, it just doesn't feelright.
And so I think if I were to havemade this, I would have gone

(16:56):
more stylistically into maybelike a digitized version of
people.
And because I would have setClue, which is the character,
we'll talk about like the basicplot of Tron in a second, but I
would have made it so that hewas stylized to maybe be a bit
blockier, maybe a bit derezzed abit, a little so that you could

(17:17):
see that is a young, yeah, ayoung version of Jeff Bridges'
character, but it it wouldn'thave had like it's not supposed
to be human, you know?
Right.
It would have felt more computeras opposed to what they did
where they tried to makeeverything's computer, Jake.

SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
A good example of that was in Rogue One.
I think the weakest points ofRogue One are the Grandmaf
Tarkin and and Princess Leiamoments.
Those are easy fixes though.
Instead of Tarkin being there inperson talking to the character,
have him on a computer monitor.
That way it looks more like itmakes more sense, and then just

(17:58):
don't show Leia's face.
It works.
You don't have to do that, yougive it a buffer.
Just like what Del Toro doesmasterfully, and to a certain
extent, Spielberg doesabsolutely masterfully,
especially in Jurassic Park.
You have to pick and choose whenyou use practical effects and
when you use special effects.
And sometimes makeup is betterthan CGI, and sometimes putting

(18:23):
a filter over the CGI worksbetter and makes more sense.
I think, interestingly enough,now that you had brought that
up, I think you should do mostof the clue stuff either in
flashback where it's all shot inblack and white with a glow on
it, like in the first one.

SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Which would make that effect seem more
understandable.
It would have helped.
It would have helped.
It would also have been kind ofhard to structure the world that
they're creating.
Yeah, especially when Clue hasto interact now, you know.
Well, the only way to do that isto be like, you shoot him from
behind.
You shoot him from behind, likeover the shoulder, where you

(19:03):
don't see his face, and you seethe person he's talking to.
Or you put him in shadow, or youyou stick him in a corner
somewhere far off, or you knowwhat I mean?
Like you don't have him up frontnecessarily.

SPEAKER_02 (19:13):
Or you do something where like they had a falling
out and Jeff Rich's characteruses his disc to slice Clue's
face.
And so you see, like, you know,like the his jaw is gone or
something, you know, or it'slike it's a different feature
where it's still like a youngversion of the character, but it
it takes you out of like whatit's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01 (19:33):
Or he changed his face and then still had Jeff
Rich's voice, which would befine because they did have a
falling out.
Sure, why not?

SPEAKER_02 (19:41):
When Flynn's son comes into the grid and meets
Clue, he thinks that he's hisfather, so you wouldn't have
that if it was a differentphase.
That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
So, okay, so we should probably get into the
plot of it then, I guess, ifwe're gonna say that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (19:55):
Basic plot, it is years later.
Jeff Bridges' character, afterthe events of Tron, came out to
the real world, started making abunch of money, putting out
video games.
He wanted to expand thepossibilities of what the world
of Tron could be, and so he wentback into the digital space, and

(20:16):
he was going he he created hisown new world, the grid, where
he was gonna try to make a worldthat would be beneficial to
humanity, and he created a cloneof himself called Clue to help
him in this adventure, but allthe worst parts of himself were
cloned into this new version.

(20:36):
His uh arrogance, his his driveto dominate and with things, and
Clue overthrew the creator,Flynn, and Flynn was exiled
because I guess the way you getin, at least from the Tron, was
that this laser digitized youand brought you into the digital
world.
To get out, there is a lightportal, pole of light in the

(21:01):
digital space that if youinteract with it, it will suck
you into the real world somehow.
So Clue has like kept him.

SPEAKER_01 (21:08):
I want to elaborate just a little bit on that.
In the narrative, the idea isthat Flynn realizes that even
still, and we can still kind ofto a certain extent up to the
exposition claim that this ishow Flynn interprets the world
of the Tron universe.
But what they do, you're right,outside of the game of Tron,

(21:30):
he's created a pocket universeessentially, kind of like the
bottle city of Candor, wheretime moves differently, it moves
at a different speed, and it'slike creating a universe from
scratch, like your god, right?
And so he doesn't create cluefor this.
Clue was the program that heused to fight Master Control in
the first movie, but now he'spersonified Clue.

(21:52):
Clue is now him in a human formwithin the context of the game
or the universe.

SPEAKER_02 (21:59):
He he remade Clue in his image.

SPEAKER_01 (22:01):
In his image, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
The problem was the world, because it's not the Tron
world from the first, it's hisown grid digital world.

SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
He created a pocket universe, essentially.
And he's realized that he couldcreate a utopia working with
Clue, and Clue would be hisavatar in the Tron world.
And you were right, the problemswith that is that Clue is a
program, not a person.
It doesn't have he doesn't havethe context, the empathy, the

(22:31):
human aspects that claw backthat kind of world building from
an authoritarian or a dictator.
And so Clue becomes Flynn'svision manifested without
humanity, which arguably makessense considering they are
programs and not people.

(22:53):
And so Flynn is still the CEO ofNCOM, but he's been spending
more and more time inside thisworld to the extent where he's
been missing a lot of his son'slife.
Eventually he's like, things aregoing wrong.
I don't think I don't like thedirection this is going.
I'm gonna go back in there andI'm going to make it work, and
then never comes home.

(23:14):
He goes out for a pack ofcigarettes and never comes back.
And so then he's missing fromhis son's life, who then grows
up without a father.
His dad's dead.
Yes, yeah, that Flynn is dead.
Yes.
Basically, that's the expositionof the film.

SPEAKER_02 (23:28):
Yes, because grown-up son, you know, he's uh
eccentric and uh a bit of arisk-taking daredevil.
He doesn't necessarily want tolive in the corporate structure
and he wants to make thingsbetter, he wants to make the
programs and the and theoperating system that NCOM is is
creating free to the world.
He gets a call, well, again, apage or whatever, from dad's old

(23:53):
workspace.
He goes there, whoopsy daisy, hegets zapped by the laser, he is
then digitized.
A user has become a program.
Hmm.
This is another thing they have.
So in the original, they allknew there were programs, and
then they're the user, kind ofthe mythical user, a god in a

(24:13):
way.
You know, like when Zeus wouldbecome a goose or whatever.
Before Flynn sucked into thefirst tron, users were thought
to be higher beings controlling,pulling the strings, which they
are.
But then when a user is broughtto the program level, he still
had powers outside of the thing,and that's that's like whatever.
His powers within the the worldare vague at best.

(24:38):
But he is not simply a program.
When Clue takes over, he outlawsthe religion of the user.
At the same time, there is an AIthat has spawned within Flynn's
grid world.
God, what are they called?
Uh isotronic algorithm.

(24:58):
Isomorphic algorithms.
And and these are things thatFlynn didn't create that evolved
on their own.
They seem to have uniqueabilities and um but they are
quickly rounded up andholocausted.
Right.
All of them except for one.
Users aren't they're still knownbut not believed in.

(25:21):
And these AI creatures have allbeen killed by Clue except for
one, who has met up with Flynnand lives with him.
Right, and that's Korra.
Yes, that's Korra.
So Flynn's son is taken to thegrid.
Of course, he's put into thegames, he's able to survive for
a bit, but he's about to bekilled until Korra comes and

(25:45):
rescues him, takes him outsideof the city, uh vague.
Then the son and father meet, itdoesn't go super great, kind of
Christian allegories, but theyrealize that they need to get
out of there and they need tostop Clue because Clue's idea,
like Flynn's, was to make thingsbetter for him and his people,

(26:07):
which is these digital programs.
They want to get out into thereal world and go nutty, who
knows?
Which won't be good forhumanity.
Get Buckwild.
Buckwild is the technical term,I believe.
It is, it's a medical term,yeah.
So they have to stop Clue fromgetting out.
Clue acquired Flynn's disc,which will give him the ability

(26:30):
to escape the grid with his armyof programs.
Flynn and dad make up.
Korra is sent with Flynn's sonto get out.
They get into the light pole andare sucked into the real world
somehow.
Are they made with the laseragain?
We don't know.
It's not explained.

SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
And I'm really curious as to about how a
fucking program, because like inthe first one, they're like, Oh,
I was a calculator or I wasaccounting software.
And how does that become a fullyrealized flesh and blood person?
No fucking clue.
I don't know.
Well, that's a question.

SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
Are they flesh and blood?
Come when she comes out, uh, weare led to believe that it's
flesh and blood, but we don'treally know.

SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
No, not until Tron Aries, which they also do a bad
job of explaining.
But we'll get to that in asecond.
We'll get to that in a second aswell.
To expand on Tron Legacy ingeneral, the reason I think this
film didn't work very well, andthe reason that we don't think
it's all that great.
Not that it's bad, it's just notthat great.
Is because they touch on somereally cool themes, some really

(27:37):
interesting ideas, but neverfollow through with any of them.
Instead, they're like, Well,let's touch on this and then
blow something up, or let'stouch on this and then somebody
skydives, or whatever.
It's very clear that obviouslythe sort of like Battlestar
Galactica trope of killing thefather to become the thing, and

(27:58):
you know and then Clue basicallybecomes Alexander the Great.
He he wants to unite the worldthrough despotic rule because he
feels like that's the bestmethod to do so, because his
vision is superior, and hebelieves in a utopia and he
believes in a free world, but toget there has to be a dictator.

(28:20):
Because he's not human and helacks empathy and I don't know
if he believes in a free world.
Well, that's the problem.
When you go down that path,there is no point where freedom
actually happens.
You just keep holding on to thatposition, and you keep doing it
until you die or get deposed.
That's what Americans at leastthink of like Fidel Castro or or

(28:43):
Stalin or oh, I guess Leninreally, but the idea that the
utopian ideal was great when youhave to keep in power and your
idea was freedom and democracy,those are antithetical.
It's a long story and debatable,but I think that's the allegory
they're trying to send,especially since I know for a
fact that in Tron Legacy, Korrais supposed to be Joan of Arc.

(29:08):
That's what they based her offof.
She has a vision, and she istaking on this quest to free the
world against the oppressors orwhat have you, though she's part
of the system, and she might bedelusional, which I like, but
they don't give you that.
Which is, I think, the biggestproblem with the entire movie.

(29:32):
You could get into so manyexistential concepts.
Like you could do a BattlestarGalactica thing.

SPEAKER_02 (29:37):
Yeah, there's a lot of philosophy that's underlying,
but they gloss over it for theaction set piece.

SPEAKER_01 (29:42):
Or they don't mention it, and then you only
find out later in interviewsthey meant to do that.
And you're like, well, thatdoesn't help me.

SPEAKER_02 (29:49):
What are you talking about?
The writer's headcanon doesn'tmatter unless it's on the
screen.

SPEAKER_01 (29:55):
Right, exactly.
It's interesting too that um wehad talked about how like you
You don't do the de-aging thing,how to do the de-aging thing
well or not?
So Clue's right hand man,Rinsler, is this unseen, you
know, like badass sort of almostautomaton who spoiler alert, for

(30:17):
anybody who hasn't seen it, ifyou don't want to hear, just
skip ahead.
Why did you click on this?
Because we were talking aboutwell, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
These films.

SPEAKER_01 (30:26):
So Rinsler is Tron.

SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
Yes.
He's like a brainwashed Tron.

SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
Right.
Which is great.
The whole movie, you're watchingit, and then at one point you're
like, hey, wait, where's Tron?
And then they're like, oh shit,that's Tron.
I didn't see it coming at first,but now it's all pretty obvious,
but Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
You didn't necessarily need that because he
talked about that he'd made hisown new world on the grid.

SPEAKER_01 (30:47):
So Right, so it didn't have to be Tron, right?
Yeah.
Right.
But it is a nice addition.
You would think he would haveincluded Tron.
So it does make sense, I guess.
He goes from Storm Shadow toSnake Eyes, and you never have
to see his face.

SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, he does that when he uh hefalls into the water.
Yes.
But again, what is what is waterin this digital?
I mean, there's with Tron andTron Legacy, you just kind of
wave a lot of those questionsaway because you're gonna work
yourself into a tizzy trying tofigure out how this all works.
Doesn't matter.
Just dig on the vibes, dig onthe look because it looks really

(31:27):
cool.
The costuming, the sets, the thedesign, not all of the CGI, but
a lot of the CGI, like on theirlight cycles or their oh hell
yeah, uh floating ships andstuff like that.
It looks really good, but don'tget too hung up on how this
works or what Flynn's powersare, or you know, uh where Korra

(31:51):
comes from, or you know, a lotof these things they don't fully
make sense.
You just you just get along forthe ride.
And sometimes, I mean, you'rehere for a big budget sci-fi uh
spectacle, and that's what youget.
I know this came out in 3D, anda lot of people have said this
is along with Avatar, this isone of the few films that
actually like work in 3D.

(32:11):
I didn't see it in 3D, so Idon't I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
It was really cool in 3D, actually.
The thing is, and we're gonnaprobably touch on this a little
bit later too in our summation,but I realized watching Tron
Uprising earlier and thinkingabout our first episode.
I was like, okay, so this is notsci-fi.
This is fantasy.
That's why you don't haveexplanations for these things.

(32:37):
I think people want there to beexplanations for these things,
and that's why we keepstruggling with it.
You don't need Metaclorians, allright?
No, exactly.
Just let it let it be.
Even more than Star Wars, whichjust the only thing about Star
Wars that people think of sci-fiis because it's set in space.

SPEAKER_02 (32:52):
Yeah, it's got spaceships and laser blasters.

SPEAKER_01 (32:56):
This is about computers and lasers and video
games.
Should be sci-fi.
It's not.
If you understand that this isnot science fiction, that it is
fantasy, things start makingmore sense.
Or at least are swallowable.
Yeah.
Why is the world structured thisway, especially if they're just
exe programs that are beingexecuted?

(33:17):
Like, how does this even fuckingwork?
So that having been said, um, Istill feel like there were so
many themes that they threw downhere.
Visually, Tron Legacy, it's thisimmersive world in a way that is
awe-inspiring.
It's like it's not quite, youknow, Denny Villanoove's Dune,
but it's like not that far off.
They create a world that youbelieve, you know, you're there,

(33:40):
and it's dark, which is also aninteresting thing that they went
from white uniforms or whitecostumes to black costumes when
Clue took over, which I think isa pretty obvious fascism thing.
And also into the Alexander theGreat thing slash Caesar thing,
he he brought back the games asbread and circuses.

(34:00):
That's kind of a big obvioustell as to what kind of
character and what kind of storythey're telling.

SPEAKER_02 (34:06):
Here's a basic question if you're trying to
figure this out.
These other programs arewatching the games, but what do
they do otherwise?
Do they go to the jobs?
Do they eat food?
We see them drink drinks.

SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
There's a bar! I think the only way you can get
around even the strange plothole conceits of the first movie
is by recognizing that this is adifferent universe that Flint
has created.
This isn't Tron, the game.
This is a pocket universe.
Okay, great.
Well then give me those rules.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (34:38):
If we're watching Jumanji, we're not like, well,
how does the magic of this boardgame get you know characters
from here to there?
It doesn't matter.
It's a fantasy adventure.
It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
I think that is one of the reasons that Tron is a
not all that successfulcommercially, and B something
that everyone wants to besuccessful commercially, is
because it feels like sci-fi, ittouches on these things that are
real, that are current, butdoesn't go far enough to explain
itself or to justify itself.
And I think that's the biggestfucking drawback of the whole

(35:11):
thing.
But anyway, so we should go uhfrom Tron Legacy.
By the way, Tron Legacy, if youwant to know the trunk plot of
Tron Legacy, watch the 2013Godzilla.
It's the same fucking plot.
So think about it.
Think about it, think, thinkabout it.
Father fucks up, disappears, songoes to look for him, son gets

(35:32):
caught up in the whole Shabazz,and then has to help solve the
day.
That's the plot of Godzilla,that's the plot of Tron Legacy.
Both of which could have beenfixed relatively easily.

SPEAKER_02 (35:44):
Yeah, with some like cult followings, just like the
first Tron, Tron Legacy didn'tdo well at the box office, but
as the years went by, fans ofthe idea of Tron, people getting
into Tron via Legacy, seeing,oh, this is cool, it's a cool
world, it looks cool.
I'm into this.

(36:05):
It prompted an undercurrent ofthought they were gonna do a
third one not long after, butbecause it did do well enough,
that got canned.
15 years later.

SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
Wait, before that, we have Tron Uprising, which was
a show on Disney.
Give me Tron Uprising in anutshell.
Tron Uprising goes out of itsway to try and fill in the gaps
that Tron Legacy doesn't do.
It only lasted for one season,but it fleshes out the world.
They show that Clue has become adictator and how that's changed

(36:38):
the universe, and how he'sclamped down, how he's basically
become the new Master Control.
Tron had been left for dead,Clue had defeated Tron in
gladiatorial combat, Tron losthis memory, and that's how he
was able to be reprogrammed asRezler.
And then they start doing aSpartacus thing.
There's like another randomprogram who sees the injustice

(37:02):
in this world and then takes itupon himself to become the
mantle of Tron.

SPEAKER_00 (37:08):
Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 (37:08):
Okay.
He leads a rebellion against theauthoritarian regime.
That's the long and short of it.
And they have a lot of likeinteresting stuff in it.
Lance Henrickson is in it, BoxLightner, Elijah Wood is a voice
actor, Nate Cordry, Mandy Moore.
I mean, there's there's a bunchof fucking actors in it.
Adam Horowitz was a producer atone point.
It's interesting.
Oh, Paul Rubens.

(37:29):
Oh wow, that's great.
And Trisha Helford, that'shilarious.
It really does try to flesh outthe world that they only give
you in exposition intron legacy,which I appreciate because
there's just so much left on thetable.
It still falls short because ofthe weird things that we don't
understand.
I mean, they go into stuff likethere's an isometric algorithm

(37:50):
war that's a rebellion againstagainst Clue, and that's one of
the reasons this became evenmore militaristic.
That kind of thing.
I did not dislike it, and as acompanion piece to Tron Legacy,
makes Tron Legacy better.
But then Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
Then 15 years after Tron Legacy, they make Tron
Ares.
Which just came out a few weeksago.
It just came out, which is whywe're we're doing this.
We're all Tronified.
We both just recently saw TronAres, and we thought we'd do a
whole Tron spiel because we sawTron Ares is coming out.

(38:27):
We saw Tron Ares do poorly.
We both eventually saw itourselves.
The idea of this episode, theGenesis, was why do they keep
making these Tron movies?
If they do poorly all the time.
They do so poorly.
They have like these huge gapsof time where anybody who was
into Tron, by the time the nextone comes out, I can't imagine

(38:51):
they're like clamoring foranother one.
None of these are like reallygood movies.
Now they're they're cool, theymight be interesting, they have
interesting ideas and and uhvisual style that is enticing,
but none of them are goodmovies, which would prompt more
films.
So why do they keep makingthese?
And I think we'll we'll getyeah, we'll answer that question

(39:13):
at the end of this.
But let's let's get a little thesinker teeth a little bit into
Tron Aries.
We're we won't go super deep.
The movie doesn't go super deep,so it doesn't it's it's we're
gonna go about as deep as as thefilm goes.
So Tron Legacy set up whathappened with Flynn and the
world and the companies, etc.
etc., and brings a program whichwas like an AI spawned program

(39:39):
of its own accord, kind of likea a miracle Joan of Arc, you
know, unique singular creatureinto the real world.
With Tron Aries, they get rid ofall of that.
Maybe it happened.
They mentioned that the eventsof Tron Legacy kind of happened
in the opening newsreel footage,similar to the way that they set

(40:03):
up what happened in the the timespan between Tron and Tron
Legacy and the Tron Legacy film.
But essentially, none of thatmattered.
They're not touching on any ofthat other than digital version
of Flynn existing.
They want to hearken back to theoriginal Tron.
They want to hit that nostalgiabutton more than the 15 years

(40:23):
ago nostalgia from Legacy.
But then Jesus.
Yeah, you have two bigcompanies, they are competing.
A lot of it's uh this corporateback and forth, as if any of us
really give a shit about thesetwo multi-billion dollar
corporations battling it out.
It uh it it reminded me ofPhantom Menace.

(40:46):
I don't give a shit about tradeagreements, uh space embargoes.
It's like, what are you doing?
You do in Dune, it's just howyou do it.
Well, yeah, you can do it well.
Yeah, this doesn't.
No, neither of them do.
So in this, you have EndComstill, and there's the Dillinger
systems, which is harking backto the Dillinger character who

(41:11):
is being controlled by MasterControl in the original Tron.
Um, like his grandson is now thehead of this, and it's this tech
bro, this tattoos and his vapepen, who is trying to find the
the secrets of NCOM, who'smaking a new I think they have a
new Tron video game that'sdropping.

(41:33):
I don't know why it's they focuson it like it's the second
coming of Christ, who reallycares.
Nobody's having a shut down theworld watch party.
But in this world, the NCOMheads, it was like these two
sisters, and one of the sistersis dead, and the other sister is
looking for her work becausewhat she was working on was like

(41:56):
trying to make the world abetter place by the future of 3D
printing, I think is the concepthere.

SPEAKER_01 (42:04):
Yeah, fabrication at least.

SPEAKER_02 (42:07):
So the way that we would use the laser in Tron and
Tron Legacy to digitize a humanand put them into the digital
space.
What if we kind ofreverse-engineered that and used
a similar laser technology tocreate digital representations

(42:28):
into the real world thatfunctioned like real, for a
better lack of better word,flesh and blood?

SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
Soldiers and equipment.

SPEAKER_02 (42:37):
Soldiers and equipment, but the NCOM woman,
she's trying to create a treethat grows fruit.
That's what she's trying to do.
And we see Dillinger is using asimilar technology, but to make
disposable super soldiers andsuper military equipment.
In the process of doing both ofthese things, they are having an

(42:58):
issue that they're coming at.
There is a time barrier.
Right.
These things only last for solong, like 20 some minutes.
I don't even give a shit howlong it was.
It doesn't really matter.
No, beside the point.
She is searching for the sourcecode to making things stay
corporeal forever.
The infinite code to make thingsindefinite.

(43:19):
So once you create somethingwith your magic laser, it's real
in perpetuity.
He would like the same thing,but to use for his military
programs that he's trying tosell to military investors.
So he's trying to do corporateespionage to find what she might
know as she is searching for thesame thing.

(43:41):
In the process of doing this,Dillinger has created Ares.
Ares is is like Kron, theprogram Tron, the super soldier
general of his digital army.
He makes Aries quote unquotemaster control.
Um, even though in this versionhe has a user interface, so you

(44:04):
see him typing, and it is sayingthose things in the digital
space to Ares.

SPEAKER_01 (44:10):
Well, they do that in the first one, kind of.

SPEAKER_02 (44:12):
Yeah, the same way in the first one.
Again, it's all harking back tothings that happened in the
first one.
Now, you might question what isthis digital space that they
have created?
Because it's not Flynn's worldand it's not the original Tron
world, it's its own space, butyet it functions and has the

(44:33):
same layout as Flynn's digitalworld that he made.
That again, does anybody elseknow about that world?
I don't are we we're not led tobelieve that Flynn's son brought
anybody else in there.
Is he even mentioned?
So nobody else would have accessto that.
He is mentioned in like thatnews reel photos, like Flynn's

(44:56):
son, who disappeared for Xperiod of time and they say he
was gone, but they do not care.
Essentially, you can function asif legacy didn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 (45:07):
Did you build on that if you were going to do
this?
Because at least that broughtsomething new to the table.
Don't reinvent the wheel.

SPEAKER_02 (45:15):
As Jesse Wigatow, who is the writer for Ares, when
he was questioned about that, hesaid, obviously Jeff Bridgett's
character Flynn is essential,but some of the rest of it
didn't necessarily carry as muchweight.
So there was an effort to takeit in a new direction.
I think to your point, we havereckoned with and wisely, and
maybe should have consideredthis a little bit earlier, what

(45:37):
some of the expectations wouldbe from the audience going into
this movie, not knowing where isSam Flynn, the Garrett Hudlin
character, where is Quora, theOlivia Wilde character?
Aren't those people that we paidmoney to come see this time out?
There is an effort to bridgethat in terms of context, but I
think a choice is made.
This is not a completely leftturn, but it is moving in a

(45:57):
different direction.

SPEAKER_01 (45:59):
And even just physically manifested in the
fact that, like we had talkedabout in the first one, by the
time the movie hit screens, thegood guys glowed blue and the
bad guys glowed orange in bothof those first films, and now
they glow red.
They still look like Troncharacters from Tron Legacy.

SPEAKER_02 (46:17):
Yeah, that's pointed, because when I wrap
this all up, that becomes morepronounced.
Dillinger sends Ares, again, hecan make these characters real
for a small period of time to gofind Greteli's character, the
head of NCOM, because he thinksthat she has cracked the code to

(46:38):
making things real permanently.
So he is going to go, they'retrying to track her down.
Light cycles are brought intothe real space as well, and they
function the same way.
This is where I think you becomemajor problematic elements.
Big time.
When humans go into the digitalworld, it's a fantasy land.

(47:01):
We are in fantasy, those fantasyrules apply, and we take those
with a grain of salt.
When you take fantasy rules andbring them into the real world,
it raises further questions.
How do light cycles work?
The beam of light energy thatcomes out that glows but also

(47:23):
can slice through anything.
How does that work?

SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
The light cycle thing doesn't make any sense at
all.
I knew we were in trouble at theend of Tron Legacy when Olivia
Wilde comes into the real world.
I remember even seeing that inthe theater being like, well,
this is fucked now.
Because how does that work?
And now we have the movie toshow that it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
I should probably get through what happens to Tron
Ares before we like break thatdown.
Because I think you could dosome things with that of like
her biology.
If you can send someonedigitally into the world, fix
them, and then bring them intothe real space again, could you
take away cancer?
Could you repair limbs?

(48:05):
I think that the secret topossibly living forever or
changing genetic things.
There's a lot you could do witha digital being churning flesh
and blood could have meaning andlong-term benefit to humanity.
But obviously, they get rid oflegacy kind of canonically, and

(48:25):
they're doing their own story,which again has its own possible
benefits.
Again, it's trying to find thissource code for the corporeality
being indefinite.
Ares is trying to get her.
She has this drive, but when hegets there, kind of on a dime,
he's kind of like, oh, wait,hmm.
Maybe I am becoming empathetic.

(48:46):
And maybe I shouldn't follow.
Are we the baddies?
Yeah.
It's like maybe I shouldn'tfollow my user's commands.
Yada yada yada.
He ends up pairing with her onthe next time he is made real
because he wants to be a realboy.
And she has the way of makingthat happen.
So if he can protect her, thenhe can become a real person and

(49:11):
live in the real world.
This is at some point she getsthis is another thing.
So they have a laser that theycharge up, they have it on a
helicopter and shoot her withit.
Somehow that brings her intothat digital space.
But is that digital space withinthe laser?
Is that digital space connectedto like a Wi-Fi network?
A mainframe.

(49:32):
How is she getting there?
Uh but what is what does thatmean?

SPEAKER_01 (49:35):
That haven't we been asking this exact question for
all of these movies?

SPEAKER_02 (49:39):
Yes, we have.
But before now it didn't mean asmuch because everything was set
essentially in this one room.
Yeah.
You had this one room with thisone laser that sent you to this
one place.
Kind of.
But that rule has been abandonednow.
Now you have one digital thingsbecoming real in our space,
functioning with their ownphysical non-limitations.

(50:01):
And two, we have aninterconnectedness now that
definitely didn't happen.
Tron was around in Tron legacy,but they made a point not to
bring that into effect.
But when you make new lasersthat are traveling wirelessly to
then bring someone into thisdigital space that may or may
not be Flynn's digital space,the grid, I have questions.

(50:26):
Again, it's fantasyland, sothat's not the biggest questions
we have going on.
You kind of roll with it, but itdoesn't make as much sense.
You're kind of breaking your owninternal logical rules that
you've set up through two filmsof this theoretical franchise.
Ares helps her grid out with thepromise that again she will help
make him uh a real boy, like inTron Legacy, and in the Tron,

(50:50):
there is a beam of light thatthey have to get to that will
suck them up into the realworld, and then she will be
re-digitized with a laser, andwe see that happen, at least, as
opposed to what we don't see inTron Legacy.
We do see that their laser comesonline unprompted, and it
creates Ares and the Greta Leecharacter into the real space.

(51:15):
I have questions about how thisparticle laser makes her
perfectly as she was, how it cando all that.
Uh the story that's inside.
Let's get to the end.
The second in command Ares isput in control.
She is given master control, sonow she has super fu.
Her kung fu is on the level ofAres now.

(51:37):
She goes to like hunt down Ares,and yeah, she can like make
flying ships, and and as Ares isas they're trying to make Ares
into a real boy, there's afight, and blah blah blah.
They bring in the tank ships touh hunt them down, which in a
trailer or ideal that is cool.

(51:57):
Don't know how that works in alogical sense, but in the end,
Ares becomes a real boy.
Dillinger kind of commitssuicide in a way and digitizes
himself, and Ares goes on tolive his life as a person, as a
human, and figure out what it ishumans do and how to live.
While Dillinger gets goes intodigital space, but he has to

(52:21):
find a place to go be.
Somehow he goes into originalTron land and in doing so takes
on the same look and get up ofhis grandfather, the digital
version of his grandfather, inthe old Tron outfit style.
For some reason.
Well, I think because he's inthe original Tron, because they

(52:44):
have to go find the Flynn, sothey go to Tron Land.
There's an old copy of Flynn inTronland or something.

SPEAKER_01 (52:52):
Well, that would have been clue, you'd think, but
that they discarded the eventsof Legacy, so he has magic
powers, remember?

SPEAKER_02 (52:59):
So it's Flynn.
Yeah.
Again, they play fast and loosewith all of this.
The logic is all over the placewith that fucking movie.
It really is.
And at the end, they have thepower.
ENCOM now has a monopoly oncreating whatever they want,
digital to corporeal, and theycould theoretically rewrite
reality.

(53:19):
Have trees that grow fruit thatpeople can eat.
They could create anything.
They could create giant uh robotwizards with huge dicks that
just mow down whatever enemythey want.
They could make anything.
So one assumes that they'reusing this for the benefit of
humanity, as the dead sisterintended.
And the CEO has had a uh a cometo Jesus moment that she doesn't

(53:42):
need to make money or buildbetter video games, make the
world a better place, and withpower in her hand, she can do
that.
I think we're led to believethat Earth is on this path
towards utopia, but we don't seeany of that.
No, it has jumped ahead.
I don't know how many months oryears, who knows?
All we know is that there arenow trees that are on top of

(54:03):
buildings that grow oranges orwhatever.
Doesn't really matter.
You are led, you are left withquestions.
I mean, you have a ton ofquestions, but off the top of my
head, is Ares flesh and blood?
Does he have the superpowersthat he had as a program in
human form?
Because it appears that he does.
Will he live forever?
Does he have a predetermined endtime?

(54:24):
Will he grow old?
How does DNA work?
Uh I mean, I don't I don'tunderstand anything.
Does he have DNA?
None of it makes sense.
I mean, you you think the firstthing you'd want to do is delve
into some.
I mean, these are like superscientists who are also
corporate overlords.
Do we need like a uh a world ofTony Stark's and Bruce Wayne's,

(54:45):
you know, and and Lex Luther's?
Um, they're taking like ElonMusk, and what if they could be
actual comic book people?
Because Elon Musk, he doesn'thave any of those abilities.

SPEAKER_01 (54:55):
No, it's not even all that smart.
He's not that smart.

SPEAKER_02 (54:58):
The thing is, he bought up these companies and he
has actual smart people buildingrockets or programs for Bitcoin
algorithms or whatever, right?
He is not the one who is doingthe hard science, turning lasers
that make anything real.
Okay, that's right.
That's not how that works.
But this is a a simplepoint-and-shoot method of making

(55:23):
a fantasy adventure where theroles are flipped.
Jumanji land comes to the realworld and exists in the real
world in perpetuity.
I understand their idea, but itdoes not work, it only raises
more questions.
And when you're trying to tampdown these questions or like

(55:45):
wrestle with these as a banalplot with characters that don't
really matter and have muddymotivations in this generic
action sequence, which doesn'tthe problem is like again, Tron
looks a certain way because it'sin Tronland.
When you take Tron Land out, youare neutering what is bringing

(56:08):
people to one, the fantasy ofbeing in the digital space, but
two, you're taking the look, thevibe of that digital space, and
you're taking that away byputting in the real world.
You're going cross-purposes atwhat brought people to the
franchise in the first place.
This film doesn't have much tosay, it doesn't have interesting

(56:30):
characters or an adventuresomevoyage.
It's just kind of there.
Plus, you have the whole JaredLeto-ness of it all.

SPEAKER_01 (56:38):
Don't forget Hassan Minaj, who was also canceled, on
top of putting Gillian Andersonin this movie to break my heart
even further.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (56:45):
So uh we can see like some of the many reasons
why this film did not do well atthe box office, critically did
quite poorly, and again puts theidea of a further Tron franchise
legacy on the Rikes.
But I guess they said this thesay that this they said the same
thing 28 years ago and then 15years ago, and they just keep

(57:07):
doing it.

SPEAKER_01 (57:08):
They keep doing it.
One of the only bright spotsabout this, Daft Punk
unfortunately did break up, sothey weren't gonna do the music.
The score is done by 9 inchnails, not Trent Reznor, 9 Inch
Nails.
It's the first score that theyare credited with doing as
9-inch nails since the 1996video game Quake.
Oh, wow.

(57:28):
And on top of that, Trent Reznorand Atticus Ross were credited
as producers.
The score?
Not that bad.

SPEAKER_02 (57:36):
I don't think it's as good as the Daft Punk one,
but it's not.
It's a solid follow-up effort towhat is uh, I think in modern
times, an iconic score in thatTron legacy.
And at some point we'll have totalk about the original.
I mean, it can't be in thispodcast, we just don't have
time, but no the originalcomposer that's a whole uh She's
great.
She's she's she's amazing.

(57:58):
Yeah.
So we come to our our originalthesis.
Our end of line here.
Yeah.
Why do these Tron films keepgetting made?

SPEAKER_01 (58:09):
Especially if none of them are all that good.
You and I had talked sort of offmic before about how and
nostalgia is a big part of it.
And we re-evaluate those moviesas we go along, either through
the lens of nostalgia or werewatch them and actually find
something better in them that wedidn't appreciate before, out of

(58:29):
context, or or in your case,less good out of context.
I still have basically the sameproblems with Tron Legacy than I
did before.
And Tron Ares just accentuatesthose exact problems.
I think we're both on the samepage about that.
I think the entire crux of it ispotential.
The idea of Tron has potentialto be something really cool and

(58:53):
to say something real, and theykeep trying to do so and never
do it.
They give you splashy specialeffects, and they give you
explosions, and they give youbig actors, and they give you
good soundtracks, but they neveractually do the thing that Tron
is trying to do.
Or we wish Tron was trying todo.
And so we keep hoping there'sgonna be a good one.

SPEAKER_02 (59:14):
Yeah, but it's rare.
It's rare that something thatnever had that much commercial
success, that much criticalpraise, that it keeps getting
bites at the apple.
It just doesn't happen veryoften.

SPEAKER_01 (59:27):
No, not very often.

SPEAKER_02 (59:29):
I mean, you have you have plenty of film franchises
where it's like most of thefilms are bad.
But usually the first one iswhat drives people.
I mean, Highlander I the firstfilm's good.
Pretty great.
It's a good film.
Yeah.
The sequels not so much, butthat that happens all the time.

SPEAKER_01 (59:45):
Yeah, or it's one of those ones like Fast and the
Furious, where the first movieis objectively kind of stupid,
but then it figures out what itis based on its own sort of
zeitgeist, and then people startenjoying it because it becomes
self aware.
Okay, that's a differentapproach.
That's fine.
This doesn't fit into either ofthose.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:06):
Yeah, it it's kind of a conundrum.
Because there's a lot of filmsthat are like on potential, you
see why they get made, but onpotential to make two sequels?
It's odd.
It is odd.
And it's it's thought provoking,and there'll probably be more
Tron.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:20):
Oh yeah.
They have two video games and acartoon and three movies.
That's a substantial franchise.
And not only that, but how manyfan video games out there are
there out there of Tron?
Uh like a billion.
So somebody finds some enjoymentin the concept.
I know a lot of people are gonnacome at us for thinking like
that we're Tron haters.
No, that's kind of our point.
We want a good Tron movie.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:42):
Yeah, we we like Tron.
Yeah, I enjoy them.
I enjoyed the original Tron.
I even enjoyed the legacy when Ire-watched it, you know, for
this pod.
I didn't like it as much as Idid then, which I think speaks,
at least to me, why they madeAries and while they'll probably
make more of these.
Yeah.
In my vision of Tron, the memoryis good.

(01:01:06):
But sometimes you need to leavethose memories where they are.
That's why I don't go re-watchG.I.
Joe or He-Man, because those arebad cartoons.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:15):
Oh, they're terrible cartoons.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:17):
But as a child, I enjoyed them and I can leave
them where they are.
And I know they don't need to betouched on again because they
won't hold up.
I didn't think Tron Legacy orTron held up as much as I
remember them at the time, butit's all vibes, coolness factor
that I like the idea of Tronthat keeps bringing back.

(01:01:43):
My memory of the idea of thosefilms is much better than the
actual films that we get.
And so I think there's a goodchance in seven, twelve,
twenty-eight years there'll beanother Tron film because our
lives have become more in touchwith the digital realm.

(01:02:03):
We're more involved in computersthan we ever have been before.
Questions of artificialintelligence, theological
questions, moral questions aboutcomputers and artificial
intelligence.
When this all keeps pushing, theZeitgeist says make more films
like Tron, but those thingsaren't good, at least haven't
been yet.

(01:02:24):
And I wouldn't bank on anotherTron sequel hitting that mark.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:28):
Right.
I think one thing we can blame,I think sort of hilariously, is
Ronald Moore's reboot ofBattlestar Galactica.
Came out in 2003.
It took a kind of a hokey cheesyfranchise from the 70s and
realized its potential.
And I think we're all lookingfor that out of Tro.
We want to see the BattlestarGalactica reboot of Tron.

(01:02:51):
Where somebody finally takes itseriously and like gets it and
makes it make sense.
And I have to say, Battlestar iskind of a unicorn that was
almost an impossible job thatnobody else has seemed to be
able to do with any reboot ofany other old cheesy franchises
of any kind, including likeKolchak and whatever they try
and do.
And so I think a lot ofexecutives and a lot of people

(01:03:14):
got hope after Battlestar workedso fucking well that they could
do that with Tron, but then itfought itself because it wanted
to be a direct sequel and not areimagining, but then kind of a
reimagining, but not really.
And then they did the sameprocess over again.
And I think it's been a problemof hope.
But when you have hope likethat, you do get your Battlestar
Galacticus.
Maybe it's once in a generation,but sometimes you do.

(01:03:36):
And I think we're just allwaiting for that Battlestar
moment for Tron.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:40):
A movie comes out once every generation, so maybe
next generation.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:44):
That's true.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:45):
Tron that's a good one.
Maybe the next generation willbe the next generation.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:49):
Yeah, one, why not?
Yeah.
Let's try something else.
There's so many things you couldsay about the commentary about
the digital world and the spaceswe live in, and they never do
it.
They maybe hint at it sometimes.
Just do the thing.
Hey, you know what?
Maybe it would be better as aseries.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:03):
I think if you wanted to get into some deeper
thoughts, that is the way to dothat.
I think you'd have to.
In a big sci-fi fantasy actionpick, which is not necessarily
what the first one was, but hadparts two definitely was and
three definitely was.
That's what's bringing theideally bringing people to
theaters.

(01:04:24):
You don't have time and space toproperly flesh those out.
I mean, maybe you could, but wehaven't seen that thus far.
And so I'm kind of like a proveit to me, then I'll believe you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:37):
Well, we're both from the show me state.
So yeah.
It's true.
Well, unfortunately, they're notgonna show us anytime soon.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:43):
So nope.
Tron has come to the end fornow.
Perhaps if we're still pottingin in 20 years, maybe uh we'll
we'll do the next uh Tronsequel.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:52):
But subscribe to our to our holopod in 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:56):
On the grid.
But until that time, gentleuser, if you wouldn't mind
liking, share, and subscribingon our grid.
Ideally, you know, maybe givingFive Light Cycles.
Again, light cycle is thecoolest part of Tron.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:12):
Uh, the discs are pretty cool in the sequel.
I think the discs are prettyawesome.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:16):
They're way cooler than they are in the first
reimagined discs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because like and then theyreimagine even again.
I did not like.
No.
If it meant something, thenyeah, that's what I wanted.
You know?
If you have a disc and then yougive a a trying triangular disc,
does it give you superpowers?

(01:05:36):
Do you function in a differentway?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:38):
What what is the purpose?
Well, how does that fly betteror cut through stuff better?
Or I mean it doesn't make anysense.
It's like it's like Kylo Wren'sfucking stupid lightsaber with
the the lightsaber hilt parts,and it's like, why?
How does that help yourlightsaber?
How does that not hurt you more?
Yeah, isn't it just gonna cutyour hand off, which is like a
big thing in Star Wars?

(01:06:00):
What the fuck are you talkingabout?

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:02):
Everybody throws in hands.
As Bodticker would say, give theman a hand.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:06):
Just as one last punctuation to this, this is a
review from the Wall StreetJournal by Kyle Smith about Tron
Ares.
Quote Tron Ares is essentially alaser light show redo of the
first two Terminator movies withEve as Sarah Connor, minus the
suspense, the scares, and thewitty dialogue.
I don't know if it's completelyaccurate, but he's also not

(01:06:27):
wrong.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:28):
No, there are definitely elements there.
I don't I don't fully agree withthat, but the tone I agree with.
He's not wrong.
And if you'd like to write areview via Apple Podcast, the
greatest way for the kids to getheard and thus seen, that would
be fantastic.
Giving us five light cycles onthe grid.
Please do.
Who knows what you'll hear nexttime on your favorite geek

(01:06:51):
podcast.
But until we all d-rez skip,what should they do?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:56):
Well, they should probably make sure that they
have their ID disks, theiridentity discs on them at all
times.
You will be checked.
Make sure that you have partakenof the data stream to restore
your energy.
Make sure that you have, as auser, supported your local comic
shops and retailers.
That having been said, Jake andI would like to say Godspeed,

(01:07:19):
Fair Wizards.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:21):
End of line.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:22):
Please go away.