Unlocked: Reflections on 'Superman'

In this previously unreleased episode we muse over James Gunn's 'Superman'.

This Superman exists in a world that immediately feels more "comic booky" than previous iterations – complete with Superman robots, a super-powered dog, and pocket dimensions that defy explanation. It's a deliberate step away from the gritty realism of previous DC films, embracing the fantastic elements that make comic books unique.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Jake, Jake, just put your lips together and blow.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
No, I know I was in college.
I remember.
Gentlemen, let's broaden ourminds.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Are they in the proper approach pattern for
today?
Negative All weapons.
Now Hold the weapon.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Now Charge the lightning field.
If we were to define Skip'sfandom right Now, I'm curious.
We'll say the three to fivethings that really make up who
and what Skip is, as like aninternal geek.

(00:48):
Oh, now I'm worried.
I think it's easy to say thatStar Trek is part of that.
Yeah, we would throw the Flashin there.
Yeah, and I definitely thinkthat Super Guy I think he'd be
in there, I think we probablyalso.
Maybe.
I mean, we could keep expanding.
I don't think we need to.
No, I just put this bit intosegue to talking about superman

(01:09):
you don't have to say a segue,you just segue uh so anyway,
superman's your guy, he's yourdude I do like superman.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
I actually am a bigger fan of superman than I am
the flash, to be honest.
If you had to, sacrifice one ofthem, you'd easily throw the
flash in a fire, it wouldn't beeasy, so you'd have superman it
wouldn't be easy, but I wouldrather have super ed, if you
could only have superman or startrek oh well, they're kind of
the same thing, though, are they?
They're hope, please?

(01:35):
Okay, all right, god damn it.
Even in zack snyder's darkmovies, superman said his symbol
stood for hope and he it'sfunny.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
While watching this latest super film I did think
about Zack Snyder's version inalmost reverential isn't the
right way, but maybe a like huh,do I need to go see that again
and we can get to that?
Yeah, I get that when the pointcomes.
I felt the same way in a fewplaces, sure, so we did both go

(02:04):
see this latest superman, thesymbol of hope just called
superman, not superman the movie, not man of steel, just just
superman guy right, just likeabrams did.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
They realized there was never a movie called star
trek yeah just like there wasnever a movie called rambo.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I wonder if they did a new star wars someday, if they
just do a star wars oh, insteadof a new hope, a new hope.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, I, I don't.
That is a really, reallyinteresting premise.
I don't think they could,because to this day they still
call star wars star wars.
They don't call it a new hope,but they say Star Wars, who's
they?
So the reason that they namethese things this way is so that
the pop culture, zeitgeist orwhatever, will refer to them

(02:54):
this way.
So like when you say Star Wars,you say and you mean a new hope
.
Everyone knows that.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
I think we already have generations that never,
when they go to like, look up ontheir Disney Plus streaming
service, which is the way thatthey're imbibing the content.
It doesn't say Star Wars, it'sa Star Wars, a New Hope Right,
which was they will never have,just Star Wars.
You still have generations thatare now dying off who went to

(03:23):
the theaters or rented it on VHStapes, but that's a thing of
the past.
It won't be too long untilthose people do not exist.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, I know, star Wars is a brand now I know and
that's, I think, reallyunfortunate.
But you go back 30, 40 years.
It was just Star Wars.
And then Empire Strikes Backand then Return of the Jedi.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yes, but we're also approaching it from a time that
we existed during thattransition, or relative enough
100% yeah, and maybe they'vewiped that out.
Yeah, that's going to be gone.
It's lingering, but I thinkwhen this generation coming up,
the people that were born 5, 10,20, 30 years after we were,

(04:05):
when they say Star Wars, they'rethinking of Star Wars, the
grand thing, they're notthinking of Star Wars, the first
movie.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
They're not thinking A New Hope, right.
Well, the only reason that Iwould think that that was
different is because withSuperman, originally the movie
was called Superman Legacylegacy, and then they realized
that there was no actual moviecalled just superman, because
the original, the movie that weall know and love with chris
free, was just called supermanthe movie.
Just like with star trek, whereit's like there was no movie

(04:34):
called just star trek, it wasstar trek, the motion picture.
So that's its only change.
Star wars was just star wars.
It wasn't called fucking newhope, it was just called star
wars and the scroll was thetitle was a new hope period, end
of story.
And then when they made sequelsthey were called something else

(04:57):
.
Then later, when they wanted toin the 90s, when lucas was
trying redo all that shit,that's when you get the episode
thing and they've already gonethrough that transformation.
I don't think you can do a starwars movie just called star
wars, because it has so manybranches and so many other
things.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
They've already relabeled themselves like 15
times I mean, could you havesaid the same thing about star
trek?

Speaker 1 (05:24):
no, because, like you , you have solo a star wars
story, rogue one a star warsstory.
You can't just have a moviecalled star wars anymore and I
just don't think it works well,I'm also talking about like, not
now I'm talking about lucas isdead.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
You know it's been.
How long was it between thehardy Trek and JJ Abrams Star
Trek?

Speaker 1 (05:47):
You're talking about 2002 to 2009.
Well, I mean, I get what?
You're saying what you'resaying is that the problem is
that you would have to be so faraway from it that you would
actually straight up reboot itto do a movie just called Star
Wars, and I don't see thatworking with star wars, because
it's such a legacy fandom Idon't.

(06:09):
I mean that could happen, butyou'd have to be so far down the
road this is all a tangentanyway, that is unnecessary, we
don't care about.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
It was just like a tangential, like hey, could you
just call something star warsagain.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
James gunn didn't even want to call it superman,
he wanted to call the supermanlegacy, which is also not a good
title for that movie, if Ithink about it.
But it doesn't matter, it'sjust called superman.
There's no philosophical thingbehind it, it just feels like a
reboot and feels like a newthing without having to come up
with a subtitle, like intodarkness.
We have both now seen the movie.
What are your opening thoughts?

Speaker 2 (06:46):
in all honesty, when, uh, when the film was done and
both stinger scenes finished, Iwas kind of on the impression
that was fine, it did what itsaid it was going to do.
On the box I didn't really feellike it was a film designed for
me.
It didn't, I felt, do anythingspecial, but it was generally

(07:06):
entertaining.
I don't think it scratched anydeeper itches or really plumbed
much of the depths of whatsuperhero films could be, but it
wasn't bad.
It wasn'tkilled.
I think maybe the pacing's alittle off.

(07:27):
Some of the plot stuff is alittle sloppy.
I think a lot of the charactersare fairly flat, some
completely ill-defined and theykind of aren't that interested
in explaining the world thatmuch.
But dropped into a superheroblockbuster film, are you hoping

(07:49):
to have a bubble gum popcorntime?
It does that.
It fulfills that desire.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
It is not unenjoyable , but it was on spectacular,
spectacular hmm, yeah, I, I meanit's hard for me to disagree
with you on that it's.
It's very james gunn, but notin the ways that I thought it
was going to be.
I honestly thought it was goingto tug it in the heartstrings
more.
I thought it was going to befunnier than it was, because

(08:19):
that's what I expect from ajames gunn movie, you know like
yeah but, it didn't.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
That's kind of his role.
That's what he's done in all ofhis especially bigger
blockbuster things Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
It's the only reason that Guardians worked was that
he tugged on the heartstringsand made the right jokes at the
right times.
And I know you and I kind ofdisagree on the original
Guardians, not the sequels, theoriginal Guardians of the Galaxy
.
As a movie-going experienceenjoyed it.
It is a popcorn thing.
It tugged on the heartstrings,it did all the stuff that you
want to see.
I think it's kind of impeccablein that sense, especially since

(08:51):
they are characters that nobodyknows about, that are like you
and I know who Rocket Raccoonwas, but before Guardians nobody
knew who fucking Groot orRocket Raccoon was.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Right.
Plus, even though the peoplethat knew they don't really have
a defined need to be a certainway, there was still an
amorphous, malleable quality tothese characters and the
storytelling you could do.
That really gave you free reignto do whatever you want within
vague, slight parameters.
You can't say the same withSuperman.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
No, you're right, because it is different.
Because, like feige, gave himguardians though feige has very
strict rules about what you canand can't do because of the
world building, because of thelore in the comics as well, even
though that is kind of likesecondary.
But they gave james gunn carteblanche and he did a, in my

(09:45):
opinion, a great job.
It's a very entertaining.
It's one of my favorite fromfrom that phase of marvel.
I I do enjoy that movie.
If you want to break it down,yeah, there are plot holes and
whatever that.
Yeah, of course, but it is oneof the more entertaining films.
And superman is a weird, aweird entry from him, because if

(10:05):
you look at those films andthen the Suicide Squad, music is
the backbone of all of thoseand I think honestly one of the
reasons that the first Guardiansworks so well and he uses music
well to set the tone.
It's almost like I don't knowhow to write a scene that makes
you feel this way, so I'm goingto play the music that makes me

(10:26):
feel the way that you'resupposed to feel and that works
for that.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
It holds your hand and leads you yes, easily
through the narrative absolutely.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Superman doesn't have that until the end and even
then I'm, like it feels, tackedon um is there a particular what
a bit song that you're thinkingof?

Speaker 2 (10:45):
the icky pop song probably?

Speaker 1 (10:47):
yeah, the one thing I never thought I'd associate
superman and iggy pop togetherright, right, well, but they do
that moment which feels like anold man writing young person's
dialogue where they're like oh,this is a very punk rock dude,
you know punk is.
Why are you acting like youdon't?
I think, honestly, and for thisexact reason, I don't like

(11:09):
James Gunn's take on Superman,the character, in that he treats
him like a fucking bumpkin,like he doesn't understand
anything, and it goes to the waythat he portrays the Kents.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Literally stride for stride mentally with you on this
.
It's like where and when arethey from?
Yeah, Are they from Kansas orare they from 1930s?

Speaker 1 (11:34):
Dust Bowl Right, right, exactly.
I was like is this HillbillyElegy?
What is happening here?
It's like the accents are from-.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, the accents are from the deep south.
Yeah, their knowledge of theworld is from the 30s.
Yeah, it's like what?

Speaker 1 (11:53):
what are you trying?
James gunn is from st louis.
Dude, he's from here like why?

Speaker 2 (11:59):
why are you making them this way?

Speaker 1 (12:01):
what are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (12:03):
and we had so many versions of the Kents over the
years that you can tell thisstory.
I mean, look at Smallvillewhere it's like, yes, they are
rural, but not uneducated Right,not adaptable to the 21st
century Right.
I don't understand.
I mean, I get what they'redoing, but I did not like that

(12:25):
version 100%.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
I hated that.
I thought it was superficial.
So that scene that he has, thatClark has with his father, is
supposed to be like superinspirational and it kind of is,
but not really it doesn't feeluplifting.
I think what he tries to do ishe tries to define them as
honestly like redneck bumpkinsand then try to show the wisdom

(12:51):
in the people of the earth orwhatever.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
But the thing is the whole movie.
It wasn't an origin story,right?
Everybody knows who he is, wedon't have to show his origin.
So why do you have to reinventthe wheel with the kents?

Speaker 2 (13:07):
yeah, and there are parts where it's like oh,
they're just started dating, butyet what it's been three months
.
Him and lois, yeah, he and lois, yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
But you know they're to the I love you stage well,
not until the end, and I thinkthat was more trauma bonding
than anything else.
Sure, but so Clark and Loishave been dating for three
months and she already knowshe's Superman.
Okay, that's a lot to dump onsomebody.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Did that just happen in the first week?
I don't know, there were partswhere it's like oh, it's a
lived-in, everyone's familiarwith everything that's going on.
But they're also thesesprinkles of like we have to
introduce things, or things haveto be just burgeoning, and it's
like what do you want?
Like, literally, they say thathe and lex luther have not met

(13:57):
face to face until, likesuperman's, locked up which is
crazy because superman's beenaround for three years in this
continuity.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, if Lex wanted to meet him, he couldn't
engineer that to happen, evenjust to intimidate him because,
like his entire thing, is thathe's choreographed fights with a
clone of Superman.
Spoiler alert.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah yeah, we will be discussing some spoilers.
I don't think I will see.
We'll see how spoiler it gets.
If you get spoiled, fuck it.
Wait, you know, I'll put.
I'll just put a thing in thenotes.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
I'll put a thing in the notes, because it is.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
We're going to get spoilery.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
So he's examined him so much that he can choreograph
his responses to fights.
And yet They've never had aconfrontation.
Even in john burns man of steelminiseries when they rebooted
after crisis on infinite earths,he straight up had a
face-to-face with luther beinglike I know you, dude, I see you
, I see what you're doing, Iknow I can't just go punch your

(14:54):
criminal enterprise, but I getyou and I am going after you at
some point.
And luther is like, yeah, well,I'm gonna go after you because
you're a fucking alien invader,which makes sense to me.
I'd like that dynamic.
But then in this three yearshave gone by.
He's done all this research.
He created a clone and did awhole false flag thing to

(15:15):
humiliate him, and Supermandoesn't even know that they are
rivals.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, what the fuck are rivals?
Yeah, what the fuck?
Lex hasn't come out and likesaid you know, oh, I'm, I'm
against superman, or you know?
Uh, he's, he's had a slew ofideas to encounter or or detract
from superman.
It's just like he has this oneplan for somebody he's never met
that he's been plotting foryears.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
It's like that red letter media critique of
prometheus, when they're likeare you an expert on things that
have never, ever happened?

Speaker 2 (15:51):
what were the things that you particularly did like
with this version of supermanand the superman story and what
were things you distinctly didnot like?

Speaker 1 (15:59):
I do feel like the movie was a little overstuffed.
There was a lot in it which I Ithink was kind of to its
detriment.
But I understand why he thoughtthat was what james gunn
thought that was important.
Why do you think he did that?

Speaker 2 (16:15):
because I I can't imagine someone seeing this and
not thinking that there's like alittle too much going on
there's so much going on and Ihave read some articles about
this, you know.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
Subsequently he didn't want to direct Superman,
but he felt like Superman has tobe the anchor of the DC Studio
universe, which makes sense tome.
I mean, he is the Alpha andOmega of superheroes,
essentially, so you kind of haveto start with Superman,

(16:47):
especially since he didBrightburn.
He did Brightburn, yeah, hewrote and directed Brightburn.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
I don't think he directed it.
It doesn't show up in his.
Maybe I'm looking.
Am I looking at the wrong thing?
No, he did Super.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
I don't think he did Brightburn.
He did super for sure, which isjust different.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Take on kick-ass yeah , the brightburn wasn't him.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
I thought um that asshole did, wrote brightburn oh
okay, hold on, let me figureout which one you mean when you
say asshole.
Is it Max Landis?
You got it.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
Nailed it.
That is who I was talking aboutActually.
No, it was Brian Gunn and MarkGunn.
Are these his brothers?
Who are these Gunns, mm-mm?
I mean born in St LouisMissouri?
Is this guy related?
So it's James Gunn's brotherand James Gunn's cousin who

(17:51):
wrote Brightburn.
Now, neither of them directedit.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
I interviewed his brother.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
This isn't Sean Gunn, this is his other brother.
Yeah, so there's James Gunn,then Sean Gun gunn, who's in all
of his projects, and then briangunn, who writes uh, he's
written bright, burn and journeyto the mystery island and then
some other things, bring it onagain uh, straight to video epic

(18:22):
fucking filmography.
I mean I'm cutting out the PGporn or the gay-ocity that he
wrote, wow Interesting.
I think it'd be fair to say theGunn family, but not him Sure
the Gunns.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
The Gunns fully loaded.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
Is it his sister or his sister-in-law who's a
producer?

Speaker 1 (18:44):
This is like the wild and wonderful white.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Sorry, we were talking about Superman.
Superman, yes.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
One of the weird things that I was kind of
surprised at when I watched itwas the movie is aesthetic
narrative framework Lee, basedon.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Grant.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
Morrison's all-star Superman right.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
I see some elements there, especially in particular
the Superman robots.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Right right, for people who don't know, all-star
Superman, written by GrantMorrison, was his homage to the
1950s version of Superman.
You know, he had robots thathad capes, just like he did, and
you know, like they just leanedinto sort of like the camp of

(19:36):
comic books, which I likeaesthetically, I think, because
no one's done it and James Gunnis the only guy that had balls,
so it's just be like's done it,and James Gunn is the only guy
that had balls, so it's just tobe like eh, fuck it, why not?
Which I think is one of thereasons that James Gunn has
ascended to his position, isthat he's just like why not just
make it like a comic book?
Ironic, because I remember youand I were at that Comic-Con

(19:59):
panel with Zack Snyder when hetalked about trying to make
Watchmen, and all the companieswere like oh no, we have to
modernize it, we have to makeabout North Korea instead of the
Soviet Union, we have to set itin 2005 or whatever the fuck
was.
And he's like why, why don'tyou just adapt the comic book?
And you and I were both likeyeah, he's right, this might be
good, it wasn't.

(20:19):
But yes, just do the thing andJames Gunn is the guy that also
is just like, why not just dothe thing?
Which which is why, like, thesuicide squad, works so well.
That movie is also too long andway over bloated and kind of
masturbatory, but a reallyentertaining comic book movie

(20:41):
and you're like, okay, I couldtotally see why you would hand
the reins over to james gunn.
Superman has to be the anchor ofdc studios.
So he did his james gunnversion of superman.
As a superman fan, I don't hateit, I don't dislike it, I don't
love it.
It's a movie that happened thatsets up an interesting universe

(21:05):
.
If he's in charge of the entireuniverse, he is going with his
version of the MCU, which isGuardians, and then just running
with it, which is not what theMCU does.
He's doing his the SuicideSquad version of the DC canon,

(21:25):
which you know what?
Hey, at least it's different.
It feels different than the MCU, legitimately.
I don't know that I enjoyed itentirely, but at least it was
different and I feel like that'sgoing to set the tone for the
rest of the DCU, which, by theway, james Gunn has come out and
said that the tone of supermanis not going to be the tone of

(21:45):
the other dcu movies.
At the same time, I feel likeit 100 percent sets the tone for
that.
He does at least understand on asurface level who superman is,
but the fact that he treats himlike a he's naive.
In fact they beat you over thehead with that literally the
exact opposite of zack snyder'sapproach with everything to be

(22:09):
fair.
Not just zack snyder, but alsowhat's his name?
Who wrote man of steel andblade and oh, goyer goyer, david
goyer, dark city, whichactually is probably his best
work and that's admirable and Ithink works.
But at the same time they treathim like he's like an idiot in
the movie and that kind ofbothered me.

(22:30):
If you read any dc comics likesuperman, there are plenty of
critiques out there.
Like brad melzer has greatcritiques about superman in
turning his time with justiceleague and especially with
identity crisis.
Yeah, I mean, there's ahierarchy in the DC Universe and
there is this weird thing whereSuperman is like the most
authoritative character.

(22:51):
Even Brad Meltzer knew thatthere's subtlety with Superman
and he is a.
He is a difficult character towrite, understandably, because
of the fact that there are othersuperheroes and other canon
going on.
Only James Gunn has the ballsto just do the thing.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Okay, One, yes, he has the balls to do it.
But is it always a good thing?

Speaker 1 (23:21):
Oh, no, it's debatable.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
It's debatable.
Yeah, the CGI, you can'tpossibly use a real dog
sometimes here use a dog, justuse a dog.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
It looked weird.
It wasn't like rocket, where,like, he can stand upright and
he's a raccoon, so you have todo cgi.
Okay, I get that, but youcouldn't just use a?

Speaker 2 (23:39):
dog.
Yeah, there's a suspension ofdisbelief with a character like
rocket, because you know that heis not a normal thing, right?
This is just a dog with a caperight, and by putting a cg and
doing like close-ups of the cgiof like the him panting on
lois's lap and things, itdoesn't look real it looks so

(23:59):
fake.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
This is one of the problems I had with the movie
was that he has these weirdparallel lines running where
okay, so I have Crypto to sortof be the you know heartstring
tugging character and you reallywant to care about it, which
you do.
I mean he does do a decent job,not a great job, but a decent
job.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
I'm going to push back on that.
No, I don't think he does agood pull on the heartstrings,
emotional core of this film.
One Superman doesn't care abouthim.
That is a problem.
He uses him twice when he needsto.
Right, as someone who's a doglover and I would do anything
for my dogs.
He doesn't care about crypto atall.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Well, he says it's a foster situation which, yeah,
you're right, negates his wholething.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Is this a redheaded stepchild?
Are you gonna kick the dog too,because it's not yours, right
too?
Uh, they don't actually put.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
They don't actually put crypto in peril well, they
did, but they cut that outapparently well, but that
doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
That it that it's only what.
I don't care what was on thisin the screenplay, it's only
what shows up on the film that Ican judge.
I mean, it doesn't matterbecause that's not what we got.
If you're trying to seteverything up to be around this
plot point that you cut out,that was a bad idea in the first
place.
That's not a benefit to themovie overall in any way.

(25:23):
Yeah, you're completely correct.
Plus, there's no, there's nopayoff.
It's just a plot point to getfrom point, to save him from
situations for him to like.
The only the reason he's liketurning himself in over to
luther is well, there's this dogout there that I don't really
care about.
That's my cousin's dog, right,that I guess I should sacrifice

(25:44):
myself, and I mean in his mindhe is protecting not only this
country but the rest of theworld, all these people, from
dying.
But to save this dog that hedoesn't care about and we don't
have any connection to, he'sgoing to sacrifice himself, to
theoretically be locked upforever or maybe executed.
He doesn't know what's comingRight To then just find this dog

(26:06):
and then, once he finds the dog, there's not any like.
Hey, we're like I love you andlike this is, this is connection
, is like hey, go do this thing,save me from this proton river,
go get these orbs that arefloating around.
And then, when we get back tothe Fortress of Solitude, it's
like ah, crypto, you suck.

(26:26):
That's just a dog that's inhere, I don't really care about
it.
Yeah, your owner shows up andloves you, that's great.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
For five seconds.
That's not an emotionalconnection.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
That's the reason to make a crypto popcorn bucket.
That's a reason to sell, if youwant, like capitalism.
Putting crypto in a Supermanmovie, that to me comes off more

(27:02):
of like I want to, whether itfits or not, and that's cool in
a way.
It pokes at that nostalgiabutton and it's like hey, I like
comic books, this is more comicbook stuff.
But just putting a bunch ofcomic book stuff into a comic
book movie does not make a goodcomic book movie.
They need to be separateentities 're the best ones

(27:24):
function as separate entitiesfor a reason.
I don't think crypto reallydoes enough to drive the story
long, connect with meemotionally and crypto is a kind
of a symbol of a larger problem.
I think in this film people arejust here to get from point a
to point b.
Who am I really connecting withon an emotional level?

(27:46):
Is it Lois, is it Jimmy orPerry?
Not at all.
Is it Lex's girlfriend?
No, is it any of the?

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Justice.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Gang?
Not really, are we going to goto.
Superman.
I mean, maybe I can connectmost with, I don't know,
Metamorpho.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yes, that's the only one I think he does actually
execute well.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
That one and that's just that.
That's the most basic characterin peril has to make a moral
decision with that's.
That's like a C list characterin this film.
That's my emotional heart thatI'm supposed to go with.
Is it like the bumpkin parentswho have to explain the basics
of being superman?

(28:30):
I mean, there there are partsof cal-el's journey that I guess
you can get on board with.
But even the overarchingstoryline ideas of who he's
about and what he's trying tofigure out, do they really
resonate at the end of the filmthat I'm a punk rocker because I

(28:50):
guess I'm doing stuff oldschool and I'm not going to
listen to.
I can care about people and Ican show empathy and I'm here
for the greater good and that'spunk rock because that's against
the grain.
But if that's the story youwanted to tell, there's an
entire better story writtenabout that.
That's like the ManchesterBlack story.

(29:11):
If that's the story you want totell, one million percent the
Manchester Black story as thisSuperman versus the elite, yes,
exactly.
And if you want to put, lexLuthor is in charge of the elite
and they are being manipulatedinto, you know, having this war
where he's going to turn into DrDoom, which again, we literally
have Dr Doom coming, and theyset up a plot line in this movie

(29:34):
that has Luthor trying tobecome Dr Doom.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yes, I don't know what you're trying to do with
that.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, I don't remember him ever doing that in
comic books before.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
That seems really base for what lex is about well,
the problem is that jamesgunn's trying to do too much.
He's trying to square a lot youcan't do in one movie.
He's trying super hard to payhomage to the donner films,
which he does actually a reallygood job of doing.
In fact, he kind of includesthat.

(30:08):
Superman Returns is in canon,if you watch it.
How does he do that?
The Daily Planet, their newsfloor, it's the same set.
Okay, not in canon, but is areference Right, the entire
movie is just references.
You know, whatever it's a 75,80-year-old character, I mean, I
get that no, I'm sure thereferences are fine.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
You know, like in in the opening credits doing that
3d graphics or you know theunderlying score that hits the
beats from the original song.
That's, that's iconic.
There's a lot of those bits inthere and I, I get, and and they
were fine.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Some of them were great, some of them were bad.
And yeah, you hit on a lot ofthings there.
I completely agree that most ofthe characters are completely
flat.
The thing is, his approach iswell, you already know these
characters.
Why do we have to define them?
He's right, I don't want to seeBatman's origin every time I
see a fucking Batman movie Right, we don't want to see batman's

(31:05):
origin every time I see afucking batman movie.
Right, we don't need a supermanorigin story.
I get it.
But at the same time, then wechose folding your heartstrings.
I think he kind of misses in alot of ways.
I don't think he does the kentsvery well, even though I think
the only one of the onlyactually emotional moments in
the movie is when he's talkingto his father.
That's just kind of like.
Yeah, I could have seen anepisode of smallville where they

(31:26):
do that.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, it's okay and they kind of like neuter that a
bit because his mother literallycomes out.
It's like I call paul camp mushbecause he's just too emotional
to be a man in kansas dudeyou're from the west getting
mushy again, and if you're like,hey, it is I I read it as a
little like less masculine, tolike be overly emotional, that

(31:51):
we need to kind of like degradeyou, yeah, and then that's like
supposed to be the moment thatwe identify with the emotions.
What are you trying to do there?

Speaker 1 (32:01):
I totally see where you're coming from there.
I don't think it's quite that.
I think it's more like he'strying to do there.
I totally see where you'recoming from there.
I don't think it's quite that.
I think it's more like he'strying to do wisdom from the,
from the masses thing.
But it doesn't work because akansas isn't the south and b
he's from fucking the midwest.
He knows what midwest like I.
Sadly the kevin costner versionof that makes way more sense

(32:26):
than the weird southern thingthat he's doing.
He's doing like these weird,he's doing tropes.
If you look at his entire bodyof work, even going back to like
I don't know, fucking hisremake of Dawn of the Dead, it's
tropes.
Sometimes they work, sometimesthey don't, and this one OK.
So you're going to do the wholeClark thing and you want to do
the whole.
You know going home,reorienting, reconnecting with

(32:47):
your roots and your moral, youknow standards or whatever.
Fine, that may be the only goodpart of the movie when it comes
to like personal, likecharacter building in that, but
even that I don't think it worksvery well and I don't like the
way that they play him as dumb,they play him as naive.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
That's one thing I mean if I were to say I think
they do that it is an easy wayfor writers to help ground.
It's cheap, right characterthat's it is.
It's like this character can doso much and he's unbeatable and
he's super at everything.
So we need to kind of make himnot necessarily dull, but maybe

(33:31):
a little naive in a lot of ways,which is why you know, like you
pair him with batman, he's likethe boy scout.
You know versus right.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
You know the dark knight kind of thing what they
tried to do with Mr Terrific andGuy Gardner.
They posed those as thealternates to him in a way that
kind of beats you over the headwith it, Except for Mr Terrific.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Mr Terrific was a fun representation on screen.
I couldn't tell you what MrTerrific's beliefs are or what
he stands for, or what he doeseven really, or, yeah, I don't
know.
Technologically he does stuffand he's super tech wizard and
he has these balls that can dojust about anything, sure, which

(34:15):
is not that far off from thecomic books, but he doesn't have
any emotion and he like speaksto that, that he doesn't want to
engage on an emotional leveland other than, like I want to
dick over Guy Gardner what ishis purpose for doing anything?
Because it doesn't seem to bemoney.
It doesn't seem to be fame,right.
It doesn't seem to be equalityor justice.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Or even pursuit of knowledge.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
No, I don't know what his purpose is.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
If you're going to do Mr Terrific.
I mean he literally has ajacket that says fair play on
his sleeves.
Yeah, give him a motive.
In that sense, then, like, makethat his motivation, not just
an aesthetic choice, which theydon't do.
I do like, though, the factthat he was like I'm going to

(35:03):
turn him into a blaxploitationcharacter who's also super
badass, and then I'm going to domy own montage showing that
he's badass because he's a D Flist DC character.
Fine, that works for me.
But if you're going to use acharacter like that, make that
more important.
You're correct.
Give him a motivation.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Give him a backstory, not even a backstory, just a
simple monologue he's in theplane with lois and he can just
say like, hey, you know, I'veseen you around, I am a reporter
.
Maybe I should try to like askyou questions about who the fuck
you are, what the fuck's goingon, and he can kind of explain.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
I stand for this and this is like what I do and I'm
doing this for this they kind ofdo that because, like, they all
say no when she comes to them,and then he actually does do a
scene where he's like, well fuck, this is for the science kind
of he says hey, you know, Igotta make sure that this pocket
dimension thing is real and Iwant to piss off guy gardner

(36:00):
because he doesn't want to dothis, but that still doesn't
tell me anything about who he is, or what he's about he's, he's
highlighted to be like thebreakout character from this
film.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
It's like crypto and him.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
I think that's a cool fucking idea.
But no, you're right, theydon't do anything with it.
There's no motivation there.
They basically make sweet sweetback for no reason.
Why does he have fair play onhis sleeves?
They make a point to show himputting on his jacket.
Then why?
That would be cool, and youknow what?
James Gunn would be a goodperson to do that.
And they don't do it, they justlike gloss over it.

(36:34):
And on top of that, think aboutthat scene where he finally
decides to go with Lois.
And they do that scene where ittakes forever for the fucking
garage door to open.
That is such a like a weird tacton in the guardians movies.
That scene at least would have,would have made sense, it would
have flowed within the jokes ofthe movie.
But that one was just kind oflike I need something funny here

(36:56):
.
Yeah, it's comic relief, but itdoesn't work.
There was no payoff, there wasno build-up, it was just kind of
like this and then thathappened and that was it, and
they never addressed it like itdidn't work comedically.
This is the weird thing aboutthe movie in general.
It's a james gunn movie thatdoesn't seem like it's done by

(37:17):
james gunn.
It feels like he's fightinghimself in this movie.
I could get on board if I couldtalk to him and he'd be like,
yeah, I didn't want to do it,but they wanted me to anchor the
universe and I have a name andyada, yada, yada.
But if you're going to expandthis universe, don't direct this
movie.
He's the wrong pick for thismovie, even as written right,

(37:37):
didn't it feel like it shouldhave belonged to somebody else?

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Well, it's tough because so much of it is James
Gunn's Superman, james Gunn's DCUniverse, right?
So when you set it up like that, I'm getting exactly what I
expect, and it's hard for me tonot see what's coming.
And, you know, be prepared forthat.
I'm expecting that.

(38:00):
Yeah, similar type of like ohthat happened.
Humor, which is kind of likewhat dominates marvel films, for
mostly ill.
At this point it was like oh,that's cute when it first began
20 years ago, but I don't needthat.
Oh, then that happened.
That's peter quill's wholespiel, that's his whole thing.

(38:20):
And adding that to thesecharacters, I mean, I just
expected that.
So when it happens, I'm not,you know, not anticipating it or
being rubbed the wrong way withit well, I mean, you're
completely correct.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
The worst part about that, though, is that, if you
really look at the MCU, I think,honestly, the only things that
give those moments that JamesGunn does real validity is when
the Russo brothers translate it.
In Infinity War and Endgame,they bring in Guardians with
James Gunn's humor and theymanage to meld that into the

(38:57):
sober like darker, morerealistic.
You know MCU.
My favorite moment in in theentirety of the MCU is in
Infinity War when Tony iscoordinating with the Guardians
and they do a dumb joke aboutlike you know.
He says something about beingplucky, and then Star-Lord's
like well, don't call us plucky,we know what that means.

(39:18):
And tony just kind of looks atthem and he sighs, he's like
okay.
It's like such a soberingmoment when the silliness and
the reality come together a lotof those things that makes the
the gun movies popular.
Honestly, I think we're therusso brothers made better.
You need somebody else in theroom.

(39:38):
You need a Lawrence Kasdan typein the room.
Right, he does the James Gunnstuff, but some of it just seems
performative.
I figured it would be funnier.
I thought it would be moreheartfelt.
I expected tugging on theheartstrings more than it did
and the stuff that they diddidn't really work that well,
and this is not to say Idisliked the movie.

(40:00):
I think it was still overallentertaining and one of the
better DC movies Well, probablythe best DC movies that's come
out in a long time.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
Which one was better in your mind Suicide Squad or
Superman?

Speaker 1 (40:11):
I think I actually I think I like Suicide Squad
better than.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
Superman.
I mean, I would agree.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
I think it works better within the realms of what
it's trying to do yeah, and itstill sets up a larger universe,
but not sacrificing thenarrative that superman, I think
, has a problem with, like youwere saying, like we don't care
about crypto because it's notsuperman's dog, it's.
It's supergirl's dog only sothat we can set up the fact that
supergirl's coming out.
If you had just made itsuperman's dog, and it's

(40:36):
Supergirl's dog only so that wecan set up the fact that
Supergirl's coming out, if youhad just made it Superman's dog
and made that more interactive,it would have been a better
movie and doing what he thoughthe was doing.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Just make him care about the goddamn dog.
Yes, that would mean so muchmore.
I kind of see him act withcrypto and I'm like you know
what?
Fuck you, superman, why don'tyou go, go, like, take care of
this dog?

Speaker 1 (41:00):
he's just in this fortress of solitude for I don't
know, days, weeks, months onend by himself, these robots
it's the death of the supermanrobot, you're supposed to feel
something like it's the death ofyeah character in guardians, or
whatever, or like the death ofanother ellen tydic character in
rogue one.
You're like you're of anotherellen tida character in rogue
one.
You're like you're supposed tofeel something when he dies.

(41:21):
You don't.
I was like, okay, well, I guessthe superman robot died, but
that was supposed to be like anemotional moment and it wasn't
they make a point at thebeginning of the film.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
These guys have no names, they have no purpose
other than to serve me, and theyare not something to be
emotional with at all.
So then, to kill them, and theone dies in his arms.
Who could possibly care?

Speaker 1 (41:43):
and I'm not supposed to care but then you set up
scenes where you're supposed tocare and you're like why, what
is the point of the scene,especially since he offloads
that to crypto?
Yeah, it's so contradictory.
It fights against itself theentire time, not in a way that
is so detrimental that you hateit, but in a way that you're

(42:03):
like well, that happened.
You know, yes, I know, I knowthat's an ironic thing to say.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
But Okay, the Justice Gang Thumbs up, thumbs down
Thoughts.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
It feels like a plot device to set up something else,
which is fine.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yeah, I could have done some more with like these
are all heroes for hire.
There's only the privatizationof super Of metahumans.
Yes, yeah, you can saysomething with that.
They don't at all.
But again, all right.
Lex Luthor, I know you were alittle hesitant about this
casting originally.
How did you feel the portrayal?

(42:38):
How did Nicholas Holtt do hisideas, his schemes, his dialogue
, thoughts?

Speaker 1 (42:44):
I love nicholas holt.
I think he's a great actor.
I think it's an even kind of aninspired it's not what I would
have done, but I think it's aninspired casting.
As lex luther and you know whatI think he does a great job.
I don't think I like the waythat it's written, but the
subtleties of lex luther is whatmakes him a great villain.
They went straight up supervillain.

(43:05):
They give you a couple of linesto explain why he can do what
he does, but it didn't work forme.
It just I, I just it, just thewhole character didn't work for
me.
And then you get to ultraman,which was just a setup for
bizarro, obviously or uh,superman 4 no, they make
reference to superman.

(43:25):
Okay, exactly so.
If you want to, if you want todo quick hits, here's it.
Here it is.
The things I do really, really,really like about the movie is
that james gunn is meticulous inhis specific references.
He makes decisions and hestands by them and he goes for
very specific, deep cutreferences.

(43:46):
What state license plates arein a superman movie?
This movie, straight up, hasdelaware plates, end of story.
And I'm like, okay, he made adecision and I'm with you, we
don't have to debate thisanymore.
And then he does the whole likehypno-glasses thing.
Yeah, whatever, that's a JamesGunn hand-wavy thing, that's
fine.
But then when they revealUltraman to be Bizarro

(44:09):
essentially he's got long hairand a black suit it's very
obviously a reference to thedeath of Superman, right, a
reference to the death ofsuperman, right?
I mean like, I get it.
Cool, you're making a decision,you're not being wishy-washy,
you're just doing it.
Good, don't leave it up to jeffjohns to write a story about
how wonder woman raped a dude.
Go for it.
And he does, and for the mostpart it works.

(44:31):
It doesn't work in a lot ofways because he doesn't
understand superman, though hedoes like he doesn't know how to
write superman, but heunderstands the core of the
character.
In a certain sense he makes himkind of a country bumpkin and
kind of a naive idiot, but atthe same time he understands
that he is fundamentally good,which is a rip on David Goyer

(44:51):
and Zack Snyder.
But at the same time hisapproach is also kind of
contradictory, because he'sfighting the fucking kaiju.
He's like eyes up here, thatconfidence that the
authoritative thing thatsuperman has, which is, I think,
great, but then is also he's anidiot.
The rest of the movie andyou're like, well, which?

Speaker 2 (45:09):
is he?

Speaker 1 (45:09):
that's one of the things that christopher reeve
does so well.
Oh, I wish I could do this, Iwish I could save it or whatever
, and then everybody makes funof him.
He would just figure it out,like in that Manchester Black
story we were talking about, andthat's what Christopher Reeve
brought to the character.
He had that gravitas, you know,like when Lois interviews him
and he's like every answer hehas to her questions made sense

(45:32):
and they were well thought outand confident and sort of
authoritative.
That's what made him Superman.
Not what he looked like in thesuit, not with the things he did
in the movie.
The dialogue and the way hehandled things is what made him
superman.
In this movie they do it likehalf the time and then the other
half the time he makes him asilly dumbass and it's like just

(45:53):
pick a lane, pick a lois lane,and then we're not even getting
into the jimmy olsen thing,which I I did find entertaining,
but also they didn't give youenough to make that make sense.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
I mean they do reference why and you know it's
kind of just a shoulder shrug,it's an in joke supposed to be
funny.
That's, that's fine.
Not everything has to be it'sfine.
There are things that can justbe comic book non sequiturs that
are thrown in here to spice upaction or add some comedic bits.

(46:24):
Not everything has to havedramatic, half a long backstory,
a monologue, whatever.
But you do have to have some ofthose things right, otherwise
it's going to feel patchy, it'sgoing to feel spotty, it's going
to feel disconnected and theflow isn't going to be, which I
think is superman's problem.
Overall it is an enjoying youenjoy your time in the theater,

(46:45):
yes, but it just feels a littledisconnected, it feels
disjointed for sure.
Yeah, nothing about it hitsfully right.
Right, it's all like 60 to 70percent of what you want, but
there's nothing like right.
Well, that's it.
That's 100, what it should be,what I want it to be across the
board.
So that makes for a, you know,a solid c.

(47:08):
But look at the theme song.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
I'm like, oh great, they use john williams theme but
they kind of don't like theyuse it but it's like in sporadic
ways and then they go away fromit.
It's never a build to thedramatic build of when john
williams used it.
You know what I mean.
They do the one they do thedramatic build when the kids are
lifting the flag sure, buthonestly I I feel more emotion

(47:32):
from superman returns when theydo that than I did in that movie
.
It's not enough.
It seems like he's fightinghimself in this movie.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
I think he's trying to cover his bases, because one
the generation this is made foris not someone who saw the 1970s
Superman.
This is a movie to wink and nodand show references and
reverence to those past films,but not be beholden to them and
do something new for this neweraudience.
I think some of it is apositive and some of it's

(48:04):
detrimental.
I don't think the movie fullyworks, but I do think it's
enjoyable yeah, yeah, and that'sthat's kind of where I come out
.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
It's like a b minus, I think, probably or a b yeah,
and I go like a c you know, yeah, I could see cc plus.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
Actually, the more that I've talked to you and
thought about it, the less Ilike it me too, yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
When I saw it, I was like I wasn't like enamored with
it.
I was just like I'm confused.
Why is there so much going?

Speaker 2 (48:33):
on.
Yeah, there's just too muchgoing on.
I think there are parts that Iwould really really like.
You know there's like a muchgoing on.
I think there are parts that Iwould really really like.
You know, there's like a MrHandsome which is a weird creepy
X-Files-esque character in thisbizarre Mario world in between,
you know, with possible motherboxes, which would have been
great if they had talked aboutusing that, addressed it.

(48:54):
Yeah, like, yeah, something.
It doesn't really fit in thisfilm, but it feels like.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
It feels like three different movies in one movie.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
It just it's like it's the sloppiness you know
it's there's just yeah too much.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
he's doing what lex luther did and trying to create
a universe, but in one movie itdoes work in certain ways and I
think in certain ways that aregreat, because I think the whole
metamorpho thing kind of kicksass and I think that feels like
a classic James Gunn thing,where you take a character that
doesn't matter and that no onegives a shit about and you care
about him.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Kind of.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
Where did his kid come from?
Why does that kid in peril?
I don't know.
Whatever Fine, but you stillkind of care.
Still, that was just a plotdevice.
It advanced the plot, but Idon't know that it did anything
for the universe or because hejust like literally walks away
into the woods like bruce bannerin the whole tv show.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
yeah, it's a sloppy joe of a fucking superhero movie
, but one that you don't mindeating yeah, I mean sloppy joe
is perfect, because a sloppy joeit's something for the unwashed
masses that you're just goingto have, a tasty treat that's
not ideally nutritious but getsenough.
You know, you're getting yourprotein, you're getting some
carbohydrates, you're gettinglots of sodium, but it's like

(50:09):
something to have around thedinner table.
You know, in the middle of theweek with your family, you're
going to eat it, you're going toenjoy it, but you're not going
to think about it ever again.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Also like it creates a whole culture behind it, which
is what he's trying toestablish.
This is our thing now.
And you know what?
After watching it, I was likeyou know what?
It wasn't the marvel universe.
It didn't feel like it.
The rules weren't the same.
It definitely felt differentthan marvel, and I think that
was one of the major pointsthat's.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
That's funny because I, to me, this feels the closest
to any of the other marvelfilms what really?

Speaker 1 (50:45):
when mr terrific is like that's an anti-proton
stream and then he and thensuperman, like is flowing
through an interpro, I'm likewhat are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (50:54):
like the marvel would never do this I mean if you
watch, if you watch guardiansthree well, okay, there's a lot
of like weird.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
Well, I'm just saying it's like that, that is, that's
where it's coming from you knowit felt more comic booky and
less grounded than the mcu verymuch so, and I will, I will that
, yeah, I can't disagree withthat at least in that sense I
appreciate that and I thinkaudiences appreciated that and I
think that's why it did well inthe theaters, because people

(51:22):
have marvel fatigue and also themarvel movies have sucked
recently, so this was at least abreath of fresh air although
would you want more in this vein, like if this if this is what
you got dc going forward, areyou happy with that?
I mean that's a complicatedquestion.
I'm not really sure.
I don't.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
We don't have time to really get into it, but I don't
want james gunn to do anothersuperman movie.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
I'm glad this happened and and it's
interesting that it createdanother universe, and I'm kind
of glad that a guy that reallyappreciates detail and minutiae
and world building is in charge.
I don't want him to directanother superman movie.
I would like to see thisuniverse go on.
This is at least different.
It's not something that's runitself into the ground.

(52:08):
I'm excited about thatpossibility.
I would like to see somebody doa superman sequel that has like
a more epic vision thatinspires you more.
You know like it gives you thatsense of awe, and this one just
felt like James Gunn had to doit and he did his best, and some
of it's great and some of it'sjust okay.

(52:28):
I'm not going to come away fromthis film Feeling like you
would if you were a kid WatchingDonner Superman, obviously, or
Tim Burton's Batman.
I think those are both strongervisions than this, right, but
this is the vision of an entireuniverse and it shows that he's
not focusing on superman, he'sfocusing on the dcu.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Yeah, and I think that's kind of its detriment
yeah, I mean it's good that itopens up a lot of doorways, but
but if you're trying to tell acoherent, streamlined narrative,
that's not the way to go.
It doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
No, I mean, it's not that it's bad.
No, I think Guardians 3 is kindof bad Same, but this Guardians
2 is kind of bad, but likeGuardians 2 is like half, half
and half.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
It's like Guardians 1 is 90 great yeah.
Guardians 2 is about 50 50.
Guardians 3 is like 30, whichis essentially just the soul
crushing rocket story.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Everything else about it sucks you're right,
everything else in the moviesucks.
That part is legitimately someof the best MCU stuff ever the
soul crushing rocket thing whichI never want to see ever again
because it's so heartbreaking.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
It's like, oh yeah, I guess.
Yeah, Not every piece of artneeds to be entertaining, as
they say.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Right, it's not a bad movie.
It's actually, in fact, a goodmovie, and we had basically the
same review of the Flash, whichis like it's not as bad as
people think it is.
It's not good.
No, we agreed on this.
It's bad, it's bad.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
This is much better than the Flash, it's just not as
bad as people think it is.
Well, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
It's a million percent better than the Flash.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
I guess I have a better feel for what.
I think people I think mostpeople like this film a lot more
than we do.
Oh yeah, most people and Idon't.
I don't know what the consensusis.
On the flash, there's a lot.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
We didn't even get into the politics of this film
well, I mean it, superman hasalways been political.
It always has been yes, yeah,so whatever, that's a different
story too.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
We don't.
We don't have time to get intoall of that we will critique it.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
We think it's.
It's a kind of a mess of amovie.
It is an enjoyable watch and itat least sets up something
different for superhero filmsgoing forward.
It doesn't feel like it's themcu rubber stamp formulaic thing
that has been just a copy of acopy of a copy into mediocrity
that the mcu has been.
It's at least something freshand new and even if it's limited

(55:06):
by james gunn because he feelslike he has a ceiling, in
general it's something fun andgo to the movie, watch it, go
for it, have fun it makes mewant to watch fantastic four
more because I want to see thecompare contrast between what
they do with that and Superman.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Oh, that's funny because I feel like Fantastic
Four feels like a desperation, Ithink one trying to do
something when you have verylittle to work with that's never
worked before is a big swingthat I don't know.
Yeah, I think.
I think this is the precursorto the truly all out throw
everything at the wall that wepossibly can to bring you to the

(55:44):
theater and what the Avengersmovies are going to be but I
thought Thunderbolts was that.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
But yeah, I mean, oh see, I don't.
Fantasy 4 feels like a.
They finally were like allright, fuck, let's just put it
in the 60s, which, I mean I'vealways said is the way to go.
That's what you should do,always agreed on that you should
always have done that, which iskind of the thing that gives me
hope.
I don't know that it's going tobe good.
I have no idea.
I have no idea.
I'm not hopeful, but I'mcautiously optimistic.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Yeah, I concur.
One last thing on superman.
I do want to just point outthat they did make an entire
clone of superman and it iscomplete afterthought in this
film, which, when on the othersurface it's that's crazy
bizarre well he's gone.
Well, he's got thrown into ablack hole yeah, I know, but
it's superman, so like right,right, and it's comic books.

(56:36):
You can always do something, butright, I mean one.
We knew.
I knew from the very get-go.
I didn't know from spoilers oranything, I just knew.
Like once they like went to thefortress of solitude, oh, it's
ultra man, he's a clone, blahblah, blah.
That's why he's in the suit.
Blah blah, I get that right,but it just seems weird to have,
yeah, that just like as just athrowaway plotline in this film.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Right, but I do appreciate that.
In that I mean he essentiallygives him the whole like nuclear
man explanation for it.
And he is the nuclear man.
That's the one thing I reallydo appreciate about that that
Gunn takes the lore reallyseriously and there are other
like Easter egg things in therethat he takes from other
Superman movies that most peoplewouldn't notice.

(57:20):
He takes the characterseriously and I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
There's a lot going on.
Also, I have to point out thisthis falls into the Jurassic
World problem that if you haveone clone, then there's got to
be more clones out there andthat's just like that's a whole.

(57:44):
Nother gets you into a snowballof, unless you were, like,
destroyed the cloning facility,which is kind of what they do
well in civil war, where they'relike, all right, see, I've
killed all of the superpoweredpeople.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
There is no more of this formula to make any more of
you.
You arguably ruined baron zemoas a character by doing that,
but that's okay.
Whatever who cares?
His mask was dumb and who'sreally?

Speaker 2 (57:58):
like on board, I need more neo-nazis to be super
villain.
It's like I like that he wasthis tortured guy.
He devoted his life to, like,executing this plan and he did
it, and then he tries to takehis own life and doesn't succeed
.
Yeah, that's a much morecompelling narrative to me.
But whatever to wrap, to wrapup, superman eh it's all right.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
It's an okay-ish good time.
Yeah, it doesn't know what itis, even though it's supposed to
define everything.
But you know what?
It just thinks it's a lot ofthings.
It definitely thinks it's a lotof things.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
Yeah, it's worth watching.
It's fun Not life-changing, butnot bad.
So there's that.
Yeah, we hope that you feel thesame about this podcast, that
you know it wasn't bad.
I don't know about good, but itwasn't bad.
That's the spirit.
If you do feel that way, thatit is better than bad, please do
like, share, subscribe.
If you wouldn't mind writing areview on Apple podcast or

(58:58):
whatever podcast app of yourchoice, that would be preferable
and pleasurable to us.
It's the best way for us to getheard and seen and for us to
spread our reach around baraviaand jarhampur or wherever else.
We're right.
Yeah, whatever.
Uh, lexburg, skip what Right.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
Whatever Lexburg Skip .
What should the audience do?

Speaker 1 (59:21):
Oh, they should probably Clean up after
themselves To some sort ofReasonable degree.
I mean, jesus Christ, it'sgetting cluttered in here.
Make sure they have Paid theirtabs, make sure they have Tipped
their bartenders, their KJs,their wait staff, make sure they
, you know, support their localComic shops and retailers.
And from Dispatch Ajax we wouldlike to say Godspeed, fair
wizards.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
Skip, save me, take me home, please go away.