What Is The Estate Attorney's Job - EP. 159 - Ditch the Suits - Your Money, Your Life

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to Ditch the Suitspodcast where we share insights nobody
in the financial servicesindustry wants you to know about.
We're here to help you get themost from your money in life.
So buckle up and welcome toDitch the Suits.

(00:20):
Hey guys, Steve Campbell fromDitch the Suits with a special announcement.
We've recently transitionedall of our episodes to Patreon.
We would encourage you tovisit patreon.com you can search
Ditch the Suits and subscribeto our channel.
If you are interested in anyof our previous episode or seasons,
they're now available on Patreon.
Get notifications for newepisodes right in your inbox and

(00:41):
never miss an episode.
Head to patreon.com and joinour Ditch to Suits channel and the
link is in the show Notes.
So on this podcast weregularly talk about vetting professionals
and how to know if you havecompetent advisors and even if you
don't want to have an advisoror maybe you don't like having advisors

(01:02):
or you don't want to paypeople or you don't think you need
them for whatever reason.
As we're talking aboutattorneys and Kristen Luce has joined
us again for episode numbertwo, this little mini series, Attorneys
do play a very important roleregarding your financial, your family's
financial stability.
And I believe that the bestsituation that you have is when attorneys

(01:23):
and advisors, financialadvisors are working together because,
because there's informationthat can be shared for the benefit
of the client and perspective.
And I like to call it kind oflike a liaison with.
Yep, we could definitely do itlike that.
But remember you said thatthis was a big thing in your life
and they need to know thatthat's a big thing in your life.
Otherwise what they're tryingto do for you is not going to work

(01:43):
type of stuff.
And then we've worked withattorneys a lot of times that'll
come back and say, hey, thishappens a lot when we're working
with like out of state clientswhere we'll be working.
I think of a case where I wasworking with an attorney in Iowa
and he's like, well, in Iowa,this is kind of how they do it.
Which would be very differentthan what you're used to.
But this is the best way thatwe could set that.
And it was a wonderfulsolution to a problem.
That's a great situation whenthere's enough professional respect

(02:07):
that the attorney comes to theadvisor, the advisor goes to the
attorney and says, hey, wethink that this might be a better
way because we happen to knowsomething that you don't not in a
confrontational way or I'mtrying to do your job way, but in
a we're worried about the bestinterest of the client.
So regardless, we think, youknow, of your perspective.
We do believe that attorneysplay a really critical role and we

(02:29):
don't think you should go tolegalzoom.com and so we've brought
our friend Kristen on here tohelp talk about, you know, the perspective
from an attorney today.
And so Kristen Luce, ourattorney partner at Coughlin and
Gerhardt, chair of her firm'sTrust in the State practice group,
she's joining us for episode two.
Yeah.
And if you missed episode one,we laid the ground with, with Kristen's

(02:52):
credentials and experience andhow, you know, we work really hard.
Travis and I.
This is Digital Suits podcast.
I am Steve Campbell.
I serve as your seniormarketing director at Seed Planning
Group.
Travis, the guy that was onthe first point, he is our CEO at
Seed and Seed is a fee onlyfinancial firm.
So this show is all about usbringing our experiences with operating
Seed and helping you get themost of your money in life.

(03:12):
And we took the first episodeto kind of lay the groundwork for
who you are because as we getinto this, trust is really important.
Making sure that people knowanybody that we bring onto this show,
we vetted.
We know this wasn't just ustrying to put anybody in front of
our listeners, but sayingwe've done work personally with you
as a firm.
We know how you operate, weknow how your firm operates.
And so if you want to go backand listen, if you got 41 minutes,

(03:35):
that first episode was greatly20 minutes.
If you listen two times speed, that.
Is a lot of fun with podcaststhat you can, you know, get into.
A lot of talk fast.
But we talked about a littlebit with estate planning and some
of the challenges and wherethe starting point is and for, you
know, those.
So for those that are here tochampion you, welcome to Digital
Suits.
We're going to have a lot offun today getting more into, I think,

(03:56):
the how to's of estate planning.
Hey, guys, Steve Campbell, oneof the co hosts here on Digital Suits,
want to take one quick momentto tell you about something that's
near and dear to my heart.
This is my very own podcastcalled the One Big Thing.
On the One Big Thing, Iwelcome guests from all walks of
life.
We take about 30 minutes tohelp share their story and really
culminate around this one bigthing that they want to let all of
you know as a listener.

(04:17):
These are going to bepractical ideas and ways of looking
at life that you can implementto become the best version of yourself.
On the One Big Thing, we wantto help you overcome the challenges
that are holding you back.
So if you'd like a good, feelgood story that helps you overcome
challenges, check out the OneBig Thing which is available on all
major podcast platforms.
Now let's get back to the show.
Well, Kristen, you didn'tleave running and screaming from

(04:40):
the first episode.
I did not, no.
Well, welcome back.
I want to jump.
I want to jump right.
In talking about the industry,we were talking a little bit before
the episode started.
We really do believe thatpeople should work with fee only
planners, not fee based, feeonly fee.

(05:00):
And this is.
And I was sharing with you andyou know me from when I pretty much
started my career, I startedin the insurance broker dealer side
of the industry, which is allcommissions and worked myself all
the way around to fee only.
And I from walking thatjourney from being all commissions
to hybrid commissions, feewhat they would call fee based to
fee only.

(05:21):
I don't believe that peoplecan manage a conflict no matter how
good of a person they are ifthat commission's hanging over their
head.
I remember when we decided toclose our insurance agency, the reason
why we did was because, look,let's say, Kristen, if you sent us
a client, we would be like,hey, we think you need to buy this
half a million dollars of life insurance.
And you know, we kind of feelobligated to tell you that we're

(05:44):
going to make $25,000 to sellthis policy to you because we're
a fiduciary.
And then if I'm the client,though, on the other side of that,
I'm thinking, do I really needthis $500,000 policy that they're
going to make $25,000 of?
And I really wanted to be in asituation where we could just yell
at the client and say, buy the$500,000 insurance.
I don't care who you buy itfrom, but you need it and not have

(06:05):
them thinking, what are yougetting out of this?
So that's kind of how we'vecome full circle.
So when I say so calledfinancial advisors, everybody who's
not fee only, they can be afinancial advisor, but they certainly
can't carry the same fiduciary weight.
I think there's going to belimitations to their fiduciary responsibilities.
But I think the same thing forattorneys and attorneys by nature

(06:30):
are in that kind of fiduciary space.
You do have some legalobligations, right?
Could you explain that Alittle bit for our listeners, because
I don't think our listenersknow that there is a responsibility
of attorneys to their clients.
There's a huge responsibility.
Yeah.
There's a whole code of ethicsthat we're governed by.

(06:52):
There's some basic ones likeconfidentiality, but we are supposed
to be giving advice to ourclients that are.
That is in the client's best interest.
So in nobody else's bestinterest, per se.
So, yeah, that's a hugeobligation on attorneys.

(07:17):
I think that gets also back tothe structure, and it seems like
a very common basic thing, butattorneys get paid.
So somebody in your situationdoing an estate plan, there's probably
two ways you're going topotentially get paid, right?
There's a flat fee or there'san hourly or some combination, correct?
Yes.
Yep.
So I personally do a lot offlat fee work and I'll, I'll quote

(07:40):
that to the client right upfront so they, they know coming into
it what the process shouldlook like and how much it should
cost.
So a lot of times clients arenervous about an attorney because
what's it going to cost right there?
They can get it out of the way.
You can find an attorneythat'll charge you a flat fee and
a lot of work.
There's going to obviously besome work where you look at and go,
I can't.
We have no idea how much workthis is going to take.

(08:01):
But the last thing I want,you're going to know.
Yeah, well, the last thing Iwant is a client to not ask questions
because they're worried about time.
You know, how much time isthis going to take?
Because they believe thatthey're being billed by time.
So, you know, we're going todo the right thing by the client
for the right reasons, and Idon't care how much time it takes.

(08:24):
So, yeah, I do have a questionbecause I'm the first point of contact
for seed when people call inand I speak to callers from all over
the country.
And sometimes people will sayon the call, like, you know, I'm
shopping advisors, and I loveit because I'm like, great, you should
do that.
And I'll give them reasons.
And it almost like throws themoff because they're like, what?

(08:44):
I'm like, no, you reallyshould work until you find the right
professional with attorneys.
Do people shop attorneys or isthat like an industry where you kind
of make a decision and youjust go like, do people say that
to you when they talk withyou, Kristen?
Just, you know, we're alsolooking at other attorney and what
has helped you maybe help that conversation?

(09:05):
I, it sounds like there'stransparency, the flaffy.
Is there anything else thatyou just help put people's why they're
really saying that is the undercutting.
You know, they don't want tomake a bad decision.
They don't want to be insecure.
So like how do you helpsomebody who says, hey, just so you
know, we're, we're vetting attorneys.
Yeah, no, I, I, I think you,number one, you, you want to engage

(09:27):
with them, right.
So they can get to know me.
They want, they want tounderstand how the communication
flow is going to happen.
They want to understand thetimelines involved.
Usually when people want to doestate planning, they are looking
for an actual end product.
How long is it going to taketo get that in hand?
They want to know how muchit's going to cost and what the process

(09:50):
is going to be.
And I think those are veryfair questions.
And I would encourage ourlisteners today they should be asking
those questions.
And if a lawyer or a law firmcan't answer those basic questions,
they probably should continuetheir search elsewhere.

(10:10):
Yeah, no, I think those areprudent consumer based questions.
And let's talk about that fora second because I think there's
this idea that everythingshould be cheap, especially if you
could do it.
You see it all the time.
I don't need a financial,there's just stuff, especially when

(10:31):
it comes to law.
I've been doing estateplanning with clients for a very
long time and I learnedsomething new all the time when I'm
doing estate planning.
Things that I thought thatthat's the, I thought this was the
way the law was.
And then the law firm we'vebeen working with, I had another
law firm that we work with for.
We've been, I've been workingwith for 17 years.
Like, well, that happens to bethat person's opinion at the firm.

(10:52):
But the way the law is likethis, so the other attorneys do it
that way and it's like, wow,okay, that's news to me that yeah,
that's not actually the law.
It's more of the gray area andit's an interpretation issue.
And so it's like one of thosethings where you learn that you kind
of get what you pay for.
But on the flip side of that,I've seen people spend 15, $20,000

(11:15):
on estate plan.
It probably should have cost $1,300.
So it's like you get what youpay for so you have to be cognizant
of too cheap, but you alsohave to be cognizant of too expensive.
So how do you, how do you vetthat a little bit?
Do you have any advice?
So if somebody comes in andsay, hey, and I'm just making something
up, Kristen, you quoted US$1,800 that estate planning, this

(11:37):
other guy down the road, he'sgoing to do for 300, you know, what's
your spidey sense saying?
Yeah, I mean, I think theclients need to understand what that
includes.
Right.
Is it just a will?
Is a will power of attorneyand a health care proxy?
Is it for a trust, you know,or are we going to have a discussion

(12:01):
about those two things?
Are we maybe dating some real property?
You know, like I just would bevery weary if I were a potential
client, if it was soundingvery cookie cutter, because that
is not how the process should be.

(12:23):
It's totally going to beclient focused and asset focused.
I've seen that situationbefore where it's very inexpensive
and they come back with thistwo page will.
And like a lot of people wantit simple.
I'm going to tell you, if youhave my opinion, if you have a two
page will, I don't think youhave a complete will.
I know legally you might havea complete will, but from an estate

(12:46):
planning, from a financialadvisor perspective, I'm going to
look at that thing and there'sgoing to be components missing that
I think should be there.
The other thing that I've seenbefore too is that same two page
type of will will bestructured in a way that the directives
are not necessarily clear.
I'm trying to think of like anexample I had was I'm going to leave
my money to my kids or thesurvivors of them.

(13:09):
And it's the survivors of thekids or the surviving children, we
don't know.
And there's a term called perstirpes which kind of handles most
of that anyway.
And we went back to theattorney and said, we need you to
define what this paragraphmeans because that could be a place
of contention and we can'tnecessarily set up some of the beneficiary

(13:29):
work that we wanted to do away that you've written this.
And they said, well, we knowwhat we mean.
And it's like, yeah, butthat's not what's going to happen
if somebody challenges this thing.
It doesn't matter if you knowwhat you mean.
It matters if it's going to beinterpreted correctly.
I've had another attorney tellsomebody we'll do the Will and the
power of attorney.
But the healthcare proxything, that's between you and your

(13:49):
doctor.
Do it when you're at thedoctors and it's like, no, it's really
between you and your familyand you can't do it on the way to
the doctor if you, after youhad a heart attack.
Well.
And within our world as a feeonly firm, there's two, two things
that we always give new people.
We engage with a form adv,which is the soup to nuts about seed
planning group, who we are,the programs we have, the costs,

(14:12):
and then you have what'scalled a form crs.
So when a new person reachesout to seed, I say, hey, these are
things you have to have.
And that form CRS is how youoperate as a business from being
fee only fee.
And there's, there's, there'sdocumentation that we can give them
that says, hey, this is who wesay we are.
Every person you meet with,you should ask for this.
Is there anything in yourworld as an attorney or Coughlin

(14:33):
and Gerhardt stance that youguys give that helps a consumer?
Is it just transparency?
Is it correspondence?
But is there anything similarto that in your world that somebody
should be asking for or like away to.
Look up the attorney?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I'm not sure ifthis is answering your question.
I think it is.
But you know, when a clientcalls in and they have said, I want

(14:55):
to meet with Kristen, oftenI'm sending out not only that questionnaire
that we talked about lastepisode, but also an engagement letter
that, that would spell out,you know, what they should be expecting,
how much it's going to costand what the process is going to
look like.

(15:15):
A little bit of professionaldecorum that you're looking for.
And I got, I gotta imaginethat's helpful, right?
Because if you're, if you'reon a podcast, you're here seeking
information and if you'rebrave enough to raise your hand and
say, look, we need help.
I, I think the biggest thingthat stops people is they don't know
what to expect, not evenmoving forward with somebody.
It's just the small steps inbetween of what is this going to

(15:35):
experience be like, what doemails look like?
So I'm sure just having thatengagement letter and I'm not sure
if that's common for allattorneys or just how you do it,
but I would think that on myend, if I knew exactly what to expect,
communication, what it wasgoing to cost, that would help you
have a leg up.
Because then someone says Okay.
I kind of know what I'mgetting into, so.

(15:55):
So let's.
Let's change gears a little bit.
At what age do you thinkpeople should be interested in estate
planning?
Because a lot of it's for old people.
No.
Yeah, we'll define old people.
Old people are over a hundred.
Yeah.
A lot of people think for old people.
Yeah.
No, I.

(16:16):
The reality is, if you do notdo your own estate planning, as soon
as you turn 18, New York orwhatever state you live in, they
have a default plan for you.
So, you know.
Right, yeah.
If you're not comfortable withthe default plan, you.

(16:36):
You need to have your own.
And who knows what the defaultplan is?
I've never had a client thatcould tell me what the default come
in and say.
We say, do you have yourestate planning done?
But my.
My, you know, so and so knowswhat to do is like.
But so and so may not have any choices.
That's not how it works.
No, no.
I mean, there.
There are intestacy statutesin all 50 states that would determine

(17:01):
who has priority to act, andsometimes that could lead to a real
mess if you have people withequal priority trying to be in charge.
Um, you would never.
Family, though, fighting overthis stuff, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Never.
Yeah.

(17:23):
And then there's also statutesthat say who inherit in how they
inherit.
So honestly, I think as soonas someone turns 18, they probably
should be looking at a powerof attorney and a health care proxy.
And then probably once peoplestart acquiring assets for themselves,

(17:45):
you know, they're gonna wantto think about some sort of estate
plan at that point in time,especially with big life events like
marriage, additional children.
Children are huge.
A lot of people assume, youknow, that everything would just
go to their spouse if theypass away.
That's not true.

(18:06):
Kids usually inherit as well.
So.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In New York, we had thathappen one time.
We had somebody came to usafter their dad had passed away,
and mom, who still needed tolive, didn't inherit everything.
Each of the kids inherited aportion of the assets, and it really

(18:28):
kind of mucked things up for mom.
It really kind of made a mess.
Well, and I.
And I would just say, too, notfrom a morbid standpoint, but we've
seen how much the world haschanged in the last few years, with
world events and people losingtheir lives too soon.
I think we always assumeestate planning is for those that
get sick or something happens,but, I mean, you turn on the nightly

(18:48):
news and there's accidents andthere's things.
So a lot of Our listeners.
Kristen ditched the suits.
We had a lot in their 30s,40s, 50s.
So your ears are hopefully pinging.
If you don't have anything inplace that maybe it's a good time
to start the conversation.
You also have states.
I know New York is in this case.
I don't remember the exact Christian.
Maybe you can fill us in.
But you also can'tnecessarily, and I think it's probably

(19:09):
state by state, disinherityour spouse.
We had somebody one time who'slike, I don't want to give any money
to my spouse.
And that's what they weretrying to set up.
And we're like, no, that's.
You can do that.
But.
But she.
She has the right to claw back.
Yeah.
The right of election.
Yeah.
Yep.
So New York, what is it?

(19:30):
Is it a third or.
Or something like that?
There's actually.
It's kind of a complicatedstatute there.
There's a statute that.
Yeah.
Certain assets, though, whatit would be applicable to, and some
can be excluded, but.
Gotcha.
But yeah, just say, well, Idon't like my spouse.

(19:52):
I'm going to get a divorce ifI ever get around to it.
But in the meantime, I go meetwith my financial person and change
all the benefic to your.
Your new significant other someplace.
Just do that spouse have aright to that stuff?
You.
You can change it, but if youpass away, your spouse has the right
to pull it, you know, acertain amount back for their benefit.

(20:15):
Yeah.
Which is.
It's.
That seems like it could be alittle bit of a messy process.
It's a terribly messy process.
Yeah.
Let's go to the other end of it.
So you should get started.
I always say, as soon as youhave something you care about, so
you have a house, you havekids, you have a spouse, you have
a parent, a sibling that youcare about.

(20:35):
Why do you want to be a burdenon somebody else?
Try to get things set up.
But especially with kids withguardianship and that stuff.
But what about if you wait too long?
So the person says, okay, youknow, I'm never gonna die.
And then we get.
And we just wait too long.
They're no longer.

(20:57):
They're at the point wheresomebody needs to use a power of
attorney to be able to managetheir finances for them.
What happens then?
Yeah.
If they don't have a power ofattorney, we're looking at a guardianship.
Guardianship.
We were talking about that inour last episode.
Yeah.
It's a whole court process.
There are lots of attorneysthat get involved in A guardianship,

(21:21):
you often have someone who'srepresenting the petitioner.
Then the court will appointsomeone to represent an incapacitated
person.
And then other people, youknow, your closest family members,
set out by statute, they havethe right to be involved.
And sometimes they will getrepresentation too.

(21:42):
And it's kind of a two pronged analysis.
One is, is the person incapacitated?
You have to prove that to thesatisfaction of the court.
And then two, you structurethe guardianship in what they call
the least restrictive means possible.
So a guardianship is supposedto be tailored to the person's incapacity.

(22:02):
They're supposed to be givenas much independence as they can
handle.
But.
But even in a slam dunk, thisperson is definitely incapacitated.
It's a court proceeding, it'sactual litigation, and it can be
very expensive.

(22:23):
And I know just fromexperience, you get towards the end
of life and not all kids get along.
And when there's moneyinvolved, that's a very easy place
for the kids.
If you leave it up to the kidsto have to sue for guardianship,
you can just set off a firestorm.
I think this seems like it canbe very expensive and time consuming

(22:43):
if.
You have people feuding overwho should be in charge.
It's very possible to spend30, 40, $50,000 on a guardianship,
which all could be avoidedwith the power of attorney.
And you have to get a power ofattorney before you're incapacitated.
Right.
Because you have to be ofsound mind.

(23:05):
I think all attorneys requireyou to sign some kind of affidavit.
Right.
I forget what the rightlegally is, but it's like I'm of
sound mind and I'm enteringinto this agreement with the acknowledgment
of what I'm trying to do orsomething like that.
Yeah, yeah.
So in New York, and a power ofattorney is witnessed by two witnesses

(23:25):
and then it's notarized.
And yeah, as an attorney, Ican't have someone sign a document
that they cannot comprehend.
Gotcha.
So you have to be at a pointwhere you.
So, so if you've already had astroke and you're on, on your way,
you know, from the hospital tothe nursing home.
Yeah.
You're not going to be able tolikely sign your power of attorney

(23:46):
at that point.
And even if, even if youcould, like, even if they came in
and Kristen, you went to thenursing home and you said, okay,
this person is with it.
They're just physically notthere, but they're mentally there.
Yep.
If the person can't sign their name.
A lot of financialinstitutions right now will actually
reject that power of attorneybecause they want their affidavit

(24:07):
signed saying that.
That.
Because they're worried aboutelder fraud.
Sure.
So if you don't have thatpower of attorney on file at a lot
of the investment firms, theinvestment firms are really going
to give you a very hard time accept.
If they'll accept it at all.
I thought there was a law thatwas passed saying that they had to,
but they will.
I can just tell you currently,they will fight it like crazy if

(24:29):
you haven't followed theirprocess to establish on file when
the person could still signwhere they said, yes, this is my
power of attorney, and here'sa copy of the document.
Yeah.
And, you know, as an attorney,I do not enjoy the situations where
I have to make a trip to anursing home or a hospital to get

(24:51):
documents signed becausesomeone's already in a compromised
situation.
Right.
You know what I mean?
It's ideal to do it whenyou're fully competent.
There's just less possibilityfor those documents to be challenged
later on by anybody else.
And the challenge part is agood point.
I've seen this.

(25:13):
You can.
So let's say that you take,you know, mom and dad have maybe
not updated their estate planfor 50 years.
And then, you know, mom passesaway, and all of a sudden Johnny
comes in and says, you knowwhat, dad?
We're going to go get yourestate planning done.
And the whole.
As far as anybody knows, momand Dad's money was gonna be split

(25:35):
equally between the three kids.
And then somehow dad decides50% is gonna go to kid one, and then
the other 50% is gonna besplit between the other two kids.
That.
Which happens, frankly, fairly.
I think it happens often.
I've seen it happen multipletimes in my practice.

(25:56):
That's a place where you mayhave legally done it.
You know, this planning withdad and.
And even if you have the powerof attorney, you were given the rights
to do it if you wanted to do it.
And maybe dad told you hewanted you to do it, but now all
of a sudden, you're doing thisat the end of life.
Yeah, yeah.
These things got a.
Was a probate court thatthey're going to go to.
Like, how does.

(26:16):
Like, what happens?
Yeah, typically the estategets opened, and then you're going
to have some sort of objectand try to pull those assets back
into the estate to have themdivided in.
Divided in an equitable way.
Typically.
And so the person's competencyis the Key to all, how you are able

(26:42):
to walk those back.
So, yeah, signing documentstowards the end of life is not ideal.
And especially from the legal standpoint.
And litigation is expensive.
And I mean, yes, it's heartbreaking.
It's a horrible process to go through.
I mean, I don't know.

(27:02):
Attorneys probably like,because that's what you do.
Like, I know there's attorneysthat are not me, but I think it's,
it's like if you want to, ifyou want to have an anxiety attack,
make a habit of going through litigation.
Well, I mean, people haveworked their whole lives, right.
And we're going to go aheadand give it, turn it all over to

(27:24):
a bunch of lawyers becausewe're going to fight.
And you know, that's estateplanning is like the, the opposite,
opposite goals.
So that's the power of attorney.
But I think we answered theother part of the question.
You can't get your will doneif you've waited too long.
No.

(27:44):
Right.
So if you, if, if you are Mr.
Or Mrs.
Independence and you justdon't want to do it or you don't
like attorneys, and then yourhealth declines and the kids are
coming and try to help you getthis stuff done so that they don't
have to go to court and Ithink it referred to as suing for
guardianship.
Yeah, right.
They don't have to go to courtand sue for guardianship.

(28:05):
You know, if you've waited toolong, they can't even get your will
set up.
Right?
They cannot.
No.
Even with a guardianship inNew York, you can't do someone's.
Oh my goodness for them.
No.
Okay, so it's, it's, it's,it's done.
You're, you're gonna followthe rules of New York.
That default pan, the default plan.
Yeah.
Well.
And Kristen, I think about,okay, we got a listener in the car

(28:26):
driving and they're like,shoot, I don't, I don't have anything.
There's some low hanging fruitthat you can go do today.
Right.
People that just have assetschecking beneficiaries on file.
Can't tell you the number oftimes I've spoken to corporations
and businesses of people ofall ages.
And you just have people thathave never put their spouse as a
beneficiary or taken an exspouse off as a beneficiary.

(28:49):
And so log into your account tonight.
Do yourself a favor, listento, ditch the suits, log into your
computer, check your beneficiaries.
Because I think that theestate side is still so overwhelming
with people that they're justnot even doing the small things that
they can do.
And then a lot of people don'teven realize too, the importance
of beneficiaries and how theycan supersede what's in your will.
And so, yeah, I'm so glad youbrought that up because if, if the

(29:12):
listeners are talking with anattorney that is not asking about
beneficiary designations run,that should be a warning sign as
well, because so many peoplehave assets that do pass by beneficiary
designation.
And I, and you're right, those supersede.
I've talked to people on thephone that while I'm talking and

(29:33):
I'm talking about theirassets, they go, oh, wait, I forgot,
I got half a million dollarsin an old 401K.
It's like, what do you mean, wait?
Like people, when it comes tofinancial tools, just sometimes life
is overwhelming.
And so one of the things isyou have all these accounts go in
and just check your beneficiaries.
That's a very simple thingthat you can do.
That brings up a good pointthough, too.

(29:54):
What Kristen is going to do ina will when she drafts a will.
Let's say that you havechildren or grandchildren and you
want money to go to thechildren, to grandchildren, but you
want to make sure that ifthere's a special needs, it goes
in a special kind of trust orif they're not of age, you don't
want to give a 21 year old amillion dollars.
So you might say put it inTrust for a 21 year old that actually

(30:14):
cannot get captured on atraditional beneficiary form.
So what has to happen is, andI have never run into another financial
advisor who's actually doing this.
And that's just maybe the sizeof the sandbox that I'm playing in
because I'm certain thatthere's other really good firms out
there who are, who are closingthe loop on this.
But what happens is Kristindoes her job and she does her job

(30:35):
really well.
But then the planners nevercome back and update the beneficiaries.
And we call them complex beneficiaries.
They don't draft thebeneficiary language.
And somebody will say, well,that's legal.
It's not legal work.
The will was legal work.
We're just saying, go, followthe will, right?
And what it is, is it'ssaying, look, you wanted money to
go to your child unless yourchild was under the age of 35, in

(30:57):
which case it's supposed to goto their trustee.
And it's spelled out in thewill, but the trust isn't created
yet because it's only going tobe created if you die before the
child's 35 and the child is infact going to inherit something.
So follow this paragraph ofthe will.
Basically, investment company.
And so you have to create thatbeneficiary designation in a way
that the financial company isactually going to accept it, which

(31:20):
is very different.
Kristen can list out alldifferent kinds of.
She can carve up a will andassets in any thinkable way.
But it doesn't mean thefinancial company is going to do
what you're trying to dounless you push everything through
probate.
And that a lot of times is notthe right idea.
Or we have to create anexpensive trust and put things into

(31:41):
a trust sometimes, and I knownot all trusts are expensive, but
some assets can't go in atrust, right?
Or it's not appropriate.
So the advisor has to comeback on the back end and work with
the attorney.
Actually, I mean, we learnedhow to do this because we would go
to Kristen and we would go toother attorneys that we've worked
with and the law firms and theattorneys taught us why it was important

(32:05):
to reference certain things sothat it actually happened the way
that you wanted it to happen.
And it actually reduces thecost and the complications of the
estate administration.
But you have to do it on thefront end.
You know, like when somebodypasses away.
Whatever those beneficiariessay, that's what happens.
So like you said, if thelittle for one kids going to your
ex spouse, guess what?

(32:25):
It's going to the ex spouse.
It doesn't matter what you put in.
The will, but you're talkingabout you have, you have fidelity,
you have, wherever you haveyour 401k, you have your beneficiary
form.
You're talking about writingit in such a way with complex beneficiaries
that people.
Will say, leave my money in my401k plan because it's the cheapest
investments ever.
Right?
And you know, it's all indexesand nobody can do anything better.
I have yet to find a 401 thatcan do complex beneficiaries.

(32:48):
So you also need to understandthat there's certain things you will
not be able to achievedepending on how your estate documents
are written with where yourinvestments actually are.
And the other thing that youhave to realize, a 401K is a corporate
account.
It's the organization's account.
They control it.
They allow you to have a subaccount in it.
Which has your money in it,but it follows the rules of the corporate

(33:10):
account, basically.
And so whatever their rulesare about beneficiary designations
is going to be what you couldput on there.
And if you screw that up,that's a nightmare too all by itself.
I'm on a tangent.
This is supposed to be about Kristen.
So let's get back to Kristen.
Let's, let's talk about.
Because you mentioned it and Ijust, I, I really want to hit this

(33:33):
part.
People's lives change a lot.
Like who you were 20 years agoor even five years ago, especially
when you get into your 50s and60s, tends to change very fast because
of grandkids.
Work, not work, health issues.
With financial planning, a lotof things happens around age 70 because

(33:56):
what happens is you getretired, you're worried about having
enough money, you figured outyou had enough money, you're coming
up on RMD ages and you'regetting a little bit older and you're
like, okay, I'm not going tooutlive this money.
Maybe I want to start givingmoney to the kids or charities.
So talk about a little bitabout how people maybe change a little
bit in your experience withtheir estate planning, you know,

(34:18):
kind of as they go through thestages of life.
Absolutely.
Well, and I also think like atthose different stages of life, there's
different legal concerns onthe horizons per se, you know, someone
in their 40s, early 50s,you're just looking to have your
estate plan put in place, youknow, just, just because what if.

(34:42):
Right.
And then from there on they'regoing to want to pull it out.
As life changes, you havedeaths in the family or you know,
new family members enter orleave the family for whatever reason.
But then we start wading intothe waters of worrying about asset

(35:03):
protection, especially againstcosts, you know, like of skilled
nursing home costs.
And that's a whole differentlevel of planning that we'll engage
in with our clients sometimes.
And sometimes we're not eventouching the will, the power of attorneys
or healthcare proxies thatthey'll stay.

(35:24):
But you know, there's thatnext level of planning.
So yeah, as life develops,there's, there's definitely different
concerns.
So people are going to gothrough phases.
So, so then one of the lastphases that, you know, time, time's
up, right.
And we were checking out whatclient, somebody's passed away.

(35:47):
You as the attorney gettingthe phone call, just give us the
bullet pointed kind of whathappens from that point on for a
typical, you know, in NewYork, a typical kind of Estate process.
Yep.
Well, when people pass away,they have two different types of
assets.
They either have what we calla probate asset, and that is going

(36:08):
to be something in, in thatperson's name that the only way we're
going to get it out of theirname is to go through the.
The estate administrationprocess, which your state's law would
govern.
If you have a will, the willis going to be how your assets would
be divided.
If you don't have a will,again, we're looking at those intestacy

(36:29):
laws, and that is a process.
You have to get the estate open.
You have to petition the court.
There are certain people bystatute that need to be notified
that your estate's being opened.
They're asked to consent to that.
If they don't consent, then wehave another process that we go through
to get the estate opened.

(36:51):
And then in New York, once theestate is open, it has to stay open
for a minimum of seven months.
So it's a process that we work through.
The other type of assets thatpeople have when they pass away are
what we call non probate assets.
And those are assets becauseof the way they are owned, they automatically

(37:13):
vest in someone or belong tosomeone immediately.
And so often with deathcertificates, we're able to pretty
quickly process those.
So, you know, accounts may bejointly owned.
It would go to the survivingowner or if there's beneficiary designations,
A trust is a non probate typeof vehicle.

(37:37):
So when someone passes away,and I get that call based on what
I just told you about probateand non probate assets, often I am
quickly trying to figure outwhat process we need to do, which
is very asset driven.
So someone passes away.
That would be the type ofquestion you should expect to be

(38:00):
getting, like, what are wedealing with?
And then in the world ofprobate, you know, in New York, we
have something called a smallestate, and you could use that for,
you know, assets less than$50,000, but it can't be real property.
You know, do we fit into thator, you know, what's the most efficient

(38:21):
way to move those assetsthrough the probate process.
So I know Steve's got a finalquestion for you, but before we get
to that, that whole processright there, you've passed away.
And can somebody, can somebodydo the probate process without an

(38:43):
attorney?
It's possible.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, it's not often that Isee that, but it is possible.
I can imagine there's a lot ofpitfalls and a lot of issues there.
I guess where I'm going withthis too.
From a advisory standpoint.

(39:05):
Sometimes people want to know,like, okay, what's the return gonna
be if I come?
If I go to the attorney andhave the attorney help me draft up
documents, I'm gonna have topay them $2,000 and what's the point?
You know, they can just dealwith it after I'm gone.
Dealing with it after you'regone can be much more expensive if
it's not set up right.
Often it is.

(39:25):
You might be very comfortablesaying, I don't care.
I don't need a professional.
But the people left over areprobably going to have to engage
with a professional to cleanit up, because most people have not
administered a probate ifthey're not an attorney.
And if the first time thatthey're trying to do it themselves
is on your stuff.

(39:47):
You know, I mean, come on,let's be realistic.
That's going to be messy.
But the same thing goes withthe advisor.
Somebody says, you know, Idon't want to work with an advisor.
I don't need anybody to managemy money for me.
That's not the only thing thata financial planner does.
In fact, they don't even haveto manage your money for you, but
helping you, like, we'll get aphone call somebody.
We had somebody pass away overthe weekend.
And I get, you know, I got the email.

(40:07):
Mom passed away.
Here's when she passed away.
Okay, there's no panic, right?
There's no, like, like, look,there's nothing, you know, what's
there.
We know everything is, there'snothing you have to do today.
Go be with family.
And so that triggers, okay,let's start working on the paperwork
to transition the paperworkbecause we've already double checked
all the beneficiaries.
The second thing is, is letthe attorney know this is what happens.

(40:30):
So the attorney can get ready,but let the attorney know what's
actually coming through.
So the attorney right off thebat knows if they're dealing with
a small estate in New York, ifthey're dealing with preventable
assets, or if they're justdealing with the, you know, things
that are going to passdirectly through along with any issues.
And the other component thatwe actually tie in there that a lot
of times people miss whenyou're working with a good advisor,

(40:50):
especially if, let's say thatthe kids aren't that close as far
as intimate with all thedetails and everything that mom and
dad have been doing, sometimesthe reasoning that's baked into there,
the attorney or the advisorcan actually explain it to the kids
in a way that's going to helpfrom a perspective standpoint.
And I think that that's apretty significant thing that a lot

(41:12):
of times people take forgranted is somebody's got to unpack
what you've already done, youknow, and number one, did you do
it in a way that aprofessional is going to understand
what the heck you did so thatthey can help deal with whatever
you've done?
But number two, you know, isanybody going to be able to figure
out what you've done?

(41:34):
I'm done.
Steve.
My turn.
Kristen, Because I deal somuch with, with new people at Seed,
you know, you.
I'm in a lot of those first meetings.
And you have within spousesmany times a driver of the finances
of the decision making when itcomes to spouses.
I'm just curious, how often doyou feel like spouses are on the

(41:56):
same page when it comes toestate planning, meeting with you
not only on the front side?
I think a lot of times when wethink about estate planning, it's
children that are taking overfrom mom and dad's estate, but you
also have surviving spouses.
How prepared are people ifthey lose a spouse?
Because you have the emotionalside, Is there anything just in your
world that you know,especially if there was a decision

(42:18):
maker?
Because that's one thing thatI always ask when I sit with a couple
is how prepared would yourwife be or your husband be if something
happened to you?
And it's, oh, they know wherethe Excel sheets are, they know where
the accounts are.
And it's like, okay, but,like, are they going to be okay?
How prepared do you feelcouples really are when it comes
to estate planning?
And is there anything that youthink could, could help somebody

(42:39):
who says, gosh, this hasraised our awareness.
Where do we go from here?
Yeah, it's funny, I often findthat there's usually some sort of
assumption between the coupleas to who's going to pass first,
which I find entertaining.
But you're right, you know, insome couple situations, there definitely

(43:04):
is the driver, if you will.
I think in going through theestate planning process, they should
expect, like, for example, ifI had a couple and they, they've
given me all their assetinformation and I notice, like, some

(43:24):
of the, like, the house mightbe in one spouse's name or there's
a whole bunch of accounts inthe other spouse's name.
At that point in time, I'mhaving a conversation with them about,
like, is there a reason wehave it set up this Way, like should
we be looking at making it,you know, so they pass in that non
probate way, which is easierfor the spouse, especially in light

(43:49):
of the fact that they justlost their spouse and especially
if it's, you know, the spousewho is in control.
Also, I think it's, it'sappropriate to kind of think through
if we have the spouse who'sthe non driver spouse, just to use,
you know, your phrase, do weneed that spouse to have help in

(44:14):
some way?
Not too long ago I was sittingdown with a business owner who said,
you know, I've taken care ofmy business my entire life.
My wife has taken care of home.
She I don't have to worryabout things at home, you know, the
personal finances.
If I go down, there's no waymy wife wants to get involved with
my business.
So, you know, we're talkingthrough, well, maybe, maybe, you

(44:39):
know, their oldest son who'salso in business would be appropriate
to be a co executor or a coagent in that scenario.
So those are often questionsthat we're probably talking our way
through during the pandemicplanning process.
Yeah.
Well, this is our last one.
This we're going to throw outto you.
Kristen Loose, what would youwant our ditch the suits listeners

(45:03):
to know about estate planning?
I, I think a good estateplanning attorney is going to make
it an easy process for you.
So I think if you've gotlisteners out there that are overwhelmed
with it, I think they shouldmake some inquiries and, and find
themselves an attorney who'sgoing to make it easy for themselves.

(45:24):
And I think with those initialinterview questions that we've already
talked about, I think your,your listeners will be well equipped
to go ahead and do that.
Yeah.
So it doesn't have to be scaryif you don't want it to.
No, but you want to work witha good attorney who lets you know
the options you have.
Because I, I hear that all thetime as I let you go with people.

(45:45):
I need a trust.
And it's like, well, why, whydo you need a trust?
And they're like, my neighborhas one or I went to an event or
whatever.
Yeah.
And so there's a lot ofmisconceptions and so we, I think
you' really nice job overthese last two episodes of understanding
that estate planning isessential if you're 18 years old
or you have people you careabout, as Travis said.
But I think you need tounderstand your options.
You have to know what you'repaying for because cheaper always

(46:06):
isn't better.
So if you work with somebodylike Kristen who's transparent in
their process and communicateswell and sends you organizers and
lets you know what it's goingto cost, it doesn't have to be intimidating.
And I think not justcommunication but disposition is
huge.
You want somebody who's notjust going to communicate but also
be the one that when life doesfall apart, because it will at some
point, are they the rightperson that you want to be helping

(46:28):
you and your family?
So we'll put information inthe show notes for anybody that wants
to get in touch.
But as always, if you havequestions for Travis and I, topics
or people, hey, we're openingup this platform to talk with people
like Kristen.
If you got individuals thatyou would want us to talk with, don't
be a stranger.
Head over to ditchthesuits.combut Kristen Luce, thank you for being
on as a guest.
Thank you for being a friendsharing what you know about the world

(46:49):
of estate planning.
Very good.
This has been fun.
Thank you.
Thanks for checking out Ditchthe Suits.
Be sure to write a review ordrop a comment about this episode.
And if you want more likethis, head over to ditchesuits.com
you can send us a message andget in touch.
Let us know how we can helpand be sure to share any topics you'd
be interested in having uscover on the show.

(47:10):
We're here to help you get themost from your money in life.
Thanks for being our guest andchecking out Ditch the.

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What Is The Estate Attorney's Job - EP. 159

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}What Is The Estate Attorney's Job - EP. 159