April 29, 2025 • 42 mins
Female friendships aren't always forever—and that might be exactly how it should be. In this revealing conversation with author Susan Shapiro Barash about her new book "Estranged: How Female Friendships Are Mended or Ended," we explore the complicated reality behind those seemingly unbreakable bonds.
The statistics are striking: 88% of women have had significant problems with close friends, and surprisingly, 75% feel more obligated to stay in troubled friendships than in problematic romantic relationships. Through extensive interviews with women across America, Barash uncovered seven distinct types of friendship challenges that often lead to estrangement—from the faithless friend who prioritizes romantic interests over friendship to the jealous friend who can't celebrate your success.
Susan Shapiro Barash joins us to discuss her 18th book, "Estranged: How Female Friendships Are Mended or Ended," revealing why women often feel more obligated to stay in toxic friendships than romantic relationships.
• Research from 150 women showing 88% have had problems with close friends
• Seven types of problematic friendships including the faithless friend, green-eyed friend, and wayward friend
• Why shared history often keeps women in unhealthy friendships longer than necessary
• How COVID prompted many women to reevaluate and sometimes end long-term friendships
• The emerging trend of women estranging "from a place of power and voice" rather than staying in damaging relationships
• Differences between sister relationships and friendships
• How competition and jealousy impact female friendships in a patriarchal society
• Questions to ask yourself when evaluating troubled friendships
Find Susan's new book "Estranged: How Female Friendships Are Mended or Ended" at your local bookstore or online. Follow Susan on Instagram for updates on her book tour.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva.
Tonight I have with me on ZoomSusan Shapiro Barash.
I think we have to emphasizeyour last name because while
there's another, Susan Shapiro,who's also an author, right?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
There's another, susan Shapiro, who's also an
author.
Right, yeah, I know her, andboth professors and both in New
York a lot in common Seenpublishers for a long while.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Wow, I mean, it'd be interesting.
I guess we could talk aboutwhere you grew up and what makes
you you.
Obviously, you wrote adifferent book, a Strange, which
is what we're going to betalking about In terms of the
show.
This is 40, a femaleperspective, but I think when we
talk about women in their 40s,we talk about identity,
(00:55):
communication, friendship.
This is a relationship show, sothis book is based on female
friendships, which is, you know,hollywood glamorizes it in a
way, and you've obviously done alot of research.
So what inspired you to writethe book?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I wanted to write this book for a long time.
So many relationships as femalesin contemporary American
culture, starting in their 20sto their 80s, all across the
country, different ages,ethnicity, race, religion, level
of education, big cities, ruralareas, everything in between.
(01:54):
And what's so fascinating to meis how it really doesn't matter
if you have a graduate degreefrom some Ivy League school or
you barely got through highschool.
If you are having an issue withyour partner, your daughter,
your best friend, a colleague.
We all have the same emotionallonging as females for
(02:20):
everything to go well, for thesteps forward to end up
rewarding us the culturalmessage that if we're good girls
, we do the right thing, thatall good will follow.
And yet there are so many timeswhen that really isn't the case
and we count on our femalefriendships in a way that we
(02:41):
don't count on family, becausewe say, look, family is assigned
, Friendships are by choice.
But in truth we really strugglewith these friendships and I
found women saying, look, it'sharder to let go of a suboptimal
female friend than it is to letgo of a partner who's failing
me.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, and I think the one thing is, when you've known
that person for a long time,but it's also all it takes is
just one thing to happen and itwill like change your whole
perspective on the person thatyou thought you knew.
Because, like all relationships, trust is a big factor, and I
was reading the part where,obviously, you're protecting the
(03:23):
names of the characters byusing different names, but this
one friendship where I guessthey had a falling out because
of a guy, it's always a guy,isn't it Basically?
Yes, yes, you know.
So this girl was waiting on acall from this guy and her
(03:46):
friend didn't tell her like that.
He called, and now she's on herwedding day, right, and now it
comes up, you know, and so Ithat's.
I think a lot of people canrelate now maybe to that
particular incident, butsomething along the lines where
that kind of betrayal, thatlevel of betrayal where you feel
(04:07):
that trust is not an issue andit's actually at the center of
the problem.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
It's really what we are looking for is to be very
safe with these female friends,but there's so much that happens
.
So I divided the book into sevendifferent types of friends, and
that was a result of the 150women with whom I spoke that
very disparate group of women,and what I was hearing was not
(04:34):
only betrayal, but also a friendwho really disparages her
friend, so she doesn't treat herlike an equal or the better
crowd comes along.
She doesn't include that friend.
And, of course, there's thisdifferent view of the world
that's now emerging as a dealbreaker in terms of politics and
(04:56):
vaccine and how we raise ourchildren, in terms of medical
care and I heard a lot of womentalking about that having young
children and saying my friendcan't forgive me because I had
my kids get vaccines, and so thefact is these issues end up
being divisive and really endsthe friendship.
(05:18):
And you said it just takes onething.
But how about when we go on andon for years with a friend,
even though we have a kind ofinkling that she really isn't
doing the best things for us,and then we finally say you know
.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah.
So I know you're protecting thenames, but do you feel like
you've had female friendshipsthat maybe they ended because
that person betrayed your trustor they did something to make
you realize that maybe we don'thave the same moral, morals or
(05:57):
values in terms of like how wetreat people, because your
friends are a reflection of you,like I remember my mom always
saying this your friends willtake you, but they won't take
you back.
When you're younger, you don'trealize how friendship can end
and like how they're areflection of you, right?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
So and also the idea that the cultural message has
been that these best friends areforever.
And what I'm really saying isthat there is a new trend and
that is one where we hit ourlimit and we say this is really
a healthy friendship for me andwe estranged from a place of
(06:37):
power and voice, not where we'redeflated and heartbroken it's
not that there isn't grief whenthe friendship ends because
we're so invested in their verydeep relationships but to be
able to say you know what thisdoesn't work, and I say I'm
finished and feel good about it.
(06:57):
And it's really also selfreflective because we're saying
you know who am I to keep thisgoing.
Because we're saying you knowwho am I to keep this going?
She stole my idea at work, shestole my love interest, or she
didn't tell me the truth aboutthis, or she didn't invite me
here.
Whatever it is thatprecipitates this incredible
(07:18):
realization that I might bebetter off without this.
It's really a new trend and theother part of it is if we are
able to lead, then we get thechance to have better
friendships in the future.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, you know what.
We spend so much time withcertain friends.
I think the idea is letting go.
That's the hard thing, and fromwhat I've read about your book
is that it's more ofinvestigation into friendships
and the different kinds offriendships we have, and the
book is an is a way to let go ofthat person or, you know, help
(07:55):
you navigate whether or not youwant to keep that person in your
life.
It's like you don't want to letgo because it's comfortable.
Right?
That's the hardest thing, right?
The?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
other part about letting go for women is that
women often are part of a groupand if we let go of one person
in the group, we're reallyjeopardizing our own status
within the group and thebelonging might be threatened
too.
Can I really belong here?
If you know?
(08:26):
Let's just call her.
You know Alicia and I knowbecause all seven of us have
been friends or you know Xamount of women for so many
years and I did interview womenwhere they talked about
estranging or being estranged.
Sometimes you're the estrangerand sometimes you're the
(08:48):
estranging, meaning this friendhas pushed you away, but like,
where do we fit in once?
That balance is changed?
So there's a lot at stake inestranging and women often stay
too long, and that's what I'mreally hearing is changing.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, you know, what's interesting is the
examples you talk about in thebook is strange.
Like the unhealthy friendships,right, the faithless friend, I
guess always there until a thirdparty drives a wedge between
you.
So I guess in a groupfriendship that would be bad.
It's interesting you talk aboutthat because I had a group of
friends and two of the closefriends, let's say Amy and
(09:31):
Janice, you know they had afalling out and I was in the
middle and it made things socomplicated when it was my
birthday it became a huge issuebetween who's coming to the
birthday party now and who's notgoing, and it was hard because
you don't know, you were in themiddle and you felt as if you
(09:54):
had to choose.
Yeah, I did.
I felt like I had to choose andthen, either way, someone's not
going to be happy because oneof my friends came to my
birthday dinner and the otherone didn't, because they didn't
want to see the other personright?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
so and you're entitled to be friends with both
of them.
So it's very triangulated.
Yeah, those situations thefaithless friend one of my
categories is often aboutsomething getting between the
closeness of the two friends.
Many times and you mentionedthis before many times it's a
(10:28):
love interest.
Perhaps you end up with someonenew and that person doesn't
really like your friend, and sothe demand really, whether it's
explicit or implicit, is thatyou're not with that friend as
much because your new loveinterest doesn't really like it.
Right, so put it, put in thosesituations.
(10:50):
And then we also have the friendwho and this is a time you know
, a timeless story, and that iswhat one verse she's your friend
, but she's actually jealous.
Yeah, and that chapter I callthe green-ed friend, and it
happens a lot and it might notbe obvious that she's jealous,
(11:11):
but in the stories I uncoveredit was really interesting
because the women would say youknow, I didn't think she was
jealous.
We were in school together, wewere in grad school together,
whatever, you know, we weretogether for a long time, but
then I ended up getting thisplum job, or I ended up earning
so much more money, or I endedup getting married and I have a
(11:33):
baby and she's still single.
Whatever it is, the jealousyand envy starts to be part of
the picture.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, yeah and I think I've seen this before
where if your friend is jealousit's not a good sign.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
It's your friends are supposed to support you, even
to be happy for your success,but many times it isn't the case
, and that's something that wereally have to face, because the
women in this chapter told methat they were uneasy when they
explained their good news to thegroup and they knew that
(12:10):
perhaps two people in the groupwould be very jealous.
It made them very uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So it's more or less.
Do you want to tell that personor like I feel like we have
different friends for differentreasons.
Right, we have really closefriends where you can share
anything with them, or you havefriends that you just hang out
and talk about certain things,not so personal in that way, but
the one friend that youmentioned here, the wayward
(12:37):
friend, drawn to questionable ordangerous behavior.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Well, that's a really tricky category because, yeah,
dangerous behavior.
Well, that's a really trickycategory because the women whom
I spoke for that chapter weredescribing a friend with whom
they had, you know, greatcloseness and often a history,
who maybe that friend was nowdoing drugs or had a drinking
problem or a gambling problem,an addiction, anorexia perhaps.
(13:05):
And those women were justsaying that they were very
conflicted because they didn'twant to be an enabler but they
cared so much about the friendthat they didn't want to turn
their back on her, but sheneeded help beyond what they
could do.
And so do you leave that friendor do you stay and take on that
(13:27):
daunting task of really gettingher the right help?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, I think if it's toxic and it's not helping you,
you can only help someone somuch because we all have to help
ourselves too.
But I think that's a reallyhard decision to make with that
kind of friendship.
I actually had wayward friend.
This was someone I knew likewhen I was in university and I
met her at an event and shewasn't dangerous with her like
(13:54):
eating habits or what, but itwas who she would bring to an
event and I remember going tothis party with her.
I was always this more sociableone and I told her not to bring
this guy and I don't know, Ijust had this feeling like gut
feeling.
I'm like this is not a goodperson to hang around with.
And lo and behold, he came tothe party and then we ended up
(14:17):
at another place and we didn'tgo home as planned and so ended
up out of the city and then weboth have work in the morning
and I was just so upset at theend of the night with her
because she put me in asituation where it wasn't good.
(14:41):
You know what I mean the other,the other friend, the friend.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
You are put in a position that is not only wrong
for you but not healthy for herand for you as someone close to
her, and so it's reallyuntenable.
And in some of these interviewsthe women said I just had to
let it go and others had certainrequirements, like there was
(15:08):
one you know in the book I have,she said.
She said so.
Even though I had manyinterviews that are short
vignettes, I do have per chapterone long interview where both
sides spoke to me, both friends,oh, wow, yeah, which was really
(15:29):
really fascinating as ajournalist to listen to, and
very poignant stories.
And in this chapter, thissection on the wayward fringe,
the two women named Brittany andCeline said to me it all works
as long as the friend who hasthe drug problem is sober, but
the friendship is put injeopardy and that's when really
(15:52):
the healthier friend is put in aterrible position.
So we have to really thinkabout what we can and can't do
for our friends in any of thesecategories, yeah, and for
ourselves, as you said before,you know when do we leave a very
unhealthy friendship?
When we really have enoughself-knowledge and self-honesty
(16:15):
to say you know what.
This shouldn't be this way.
You would say it in a romanticrelationship, I'm not getting
what I need, or I'm walking oneggshells, or she did this to me
and I have to face it.
That's when we evolve and weend up estranging.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I think when you're young, you're so hopeful.
Those are the times when you'relike, oh, you know, this is a,
you know, a good friend.
You always have a good time.
But then when you get intothose situations over and over
again where it's like the dramayou know, right, right, and the
justification.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
So many women said to me oh, our parents have been
friends, our mothers are friends, our grandmothers knew each
other, we grew up in the sametown, we went to the same
college, we went to the samechurch.
As if this, like commonexperience, would justify some
(17:13):
really egregious situationswhere the friend has really not
been an authentic friend.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
So if they didn't have those strong ties to that
friend, would they still befriends with them?
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Some would, because, beyond the fact that maybe your
mothers knew each other, thereis the fact that the two of you
have shared all this, theseexperiences in this history.
But there is a lot of excusemaking in these friendships
where women say I want to leave,but you know, we have known
(17:48):
each other since kindergarten,or we met when we were both
pregnant, or we met when we weregetting married or divorced.
But there's some stories inthis book, if I say so myself,
that just were amazing.
I interviewed a woman who hadgrown up in the same church, one
(18:09):
that was very demanding andthey had taken she and her
friend had taken a verydifferent view of what adult
life would look like for each ofthem, even though they had
shared the mores and beliefs ofthe church, and that was a real
deal breaker.
And they actually had a verycivilized kind of divorce, I'll
(18:32):
call it where they said you know, you're on a different path now
than I.
I have stayed with this churchand you have not, and it's time
to go.
And that doesn't always happen.
You know, there's some ghostingin this book where friends just
do the slow fade or theghosting, the whole ghosting
thing, I don't know.
Like I mean, you know there'ssome ghosting in this book where
friends just do the slow fadeor the ghosting.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
The whole ghosting thing, I don't know.
Like, I mean, you don't alwayswant to do that, right, and I
guess there's a proper way to dothings, especially if you have
a really good friend.
And it's interesting.
I remember this one friend ofmine that what did I meet her?
Oh, I met her at York and yeah,we were good friends, friends,
(19:11):
but for me it felt like webarely saw each other.
She was always busy and I'mlike to me, if I have a friend,
we should at least be able tosee each other.
Like, even once in a while youcan't be that busy.
And so I think I ended itabruptly, not really explaining
myself, because I felt like Iwas giving more to the
friendship and I just said, youknow, I don't think this is
(19:31):
going to work.
And I think for her she wantedme to maybe explain myself
better.
But I was like, what else couldI say to you?
Like, I try to meet up and it'snot happening.
I mean, if I had to do it again, I probably would have
explained it better.
But, like you said, it's one ofthose things where sometimes we
act abruptly, but sometimesit's for the best right.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, I think that what you're talking about is the
kind of mutual respect, and Ilooked into that and sometimes
one friend really doesn'trespect the other friend's time
or expectations in the same way,and so we have a situation
where you don't feel like youcount, and that's a very
(20:13):
difficult place to be in afriendship.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Diva Tonight Glamour for your ears.
This is 40, a femaleperspective.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
You know, I also looked per chapter.
While this book is aboutfriends and, as we said earlier,
friends we get to choose, notlike family, we're assigned.
But I did want to interview onesister story per chapter,
because years ago I had done astudy on sisters, called Sisters
(20:43):
Devoted or Divided, calledSisters Devoted or Divided, and
I found that if a woman is veryclose to her sister or sisters,
she doesn't always have the sameneed for closeness and bonding
with female friends.
So I wanted to hear about thefemale friendship versus sisters
.
So the sisters who had had abreakup often felt very much
(21:06):
that they were pushed togetheronly because they were a family
and that they, you know, sort ofwoke up and said wait a second,
we've been forced to betogether, but now we're adult
women and just because we'resisters, there's the opposite of
friendship where we say youknow, I choose you, I select
this friendship to be ours.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
That's a very interesting perspective.
I think I'll have to read aboutthat, because I have four
sisters and I'm the oldest, yeah, and so sometimes I say this as
a joke when I'm not gettingalong with one sister, there's
another sister I can talk to.
But that aside, I do want tobring up your stats.
Obviously, you've done a lot ofresearch, and you said your
(21:49):
background is in journalism, butI do want to mention some of
the statistics that you'vegathered from your interviews.
88% of women have had a problemwith a close friend.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
And let me explain that this research is reflective
of the 150 women with whom Ispoke for the book and then, at
the end of the book, I did aquestionnaire of another 111
women.
So this is the result, and 55%told me that they felt obligated
to stay in these friendshipsand not be able you know, more
(22:27):
obligated to stay than, say, ifthey were married or in a love
relationship.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So 75% feel more obligated to stay with a female
friend than a partner or ahusband.
Why do you think that?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Again it goes to this myth that we've all been fed or
taught that best friendsforever is our banner and that
failing at that or losing thatbest friend would be so
complicated and so antitheticalto the way that we've been
(23:01):
taught and we trust thesefriends and we don't expect
betrayal.
We don't expect them to lie tous, we don't expect them to be
hierarchical.
So because of the expectation,women really feel as if they
just have to hang in, even ifit's really not a good
(23:23):
friendship or a healthy one.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
So, because we're talking about the female
perspective, there's one thing Iwant to ask you, because you've
interviewed women 150, wouldyou do this with men?
Have you thought about thatfrom a male point?
Because I find that malefriendships are a little bit
different in the sense thatthere's so many things you know,
bros, before you know.
I'm not going to say the word,but I find that I think men are
(23:48):
more laid back with theirfriendships than women are and,
like women are more emotional,right when it comes to certain
things, like you know what Imean.
Like you said that the malealways intervening like oh, we
both like the same guy, you knowthat creates the drama and
that's where issues lie.
Or the betrayal, because youstole my idea or you're I had.
(24:10):
You know everything you'vementioned.
I've had a friend where thathas happened and it's kind of
like dawn on me.
I'm like why am I investingtime in this person?
You know.
I think the answer is in severalI know I asked you more than
one thing so so number one.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
First of all, let me just say let's not do a book on
men, because male friendships itwould be.
I never for any of mynonfiction.
The only way I can report aboutmen is through the women who
speak of men, my interviewees.
And I think that if I wanted towrite a book on male friendship
, which I don't, that it wouldend up being a pamphlet because
(24:52):
there's not much to it.
They don't hold the bar as highmen and we live in a patriarchy
and we'll die in a patriarchy,and in a patriarchy there is
male power over female power, aswe know, and male supremacy.
So men don't look and again, Ihaven't interviewed men, but I
(25:13):
would contrast it this way Mendon't expect as much because so
much is given to them.
In a patriarchal culture, womenreally go deep and exchange
ideas and trade secrets and thisis supposedly a very safe place
(25:36):
for us within a male-dominatedculture.
And that's why you know, theidea that you can leave a friend
if it's not healthy is trendingnow and estranging is trending
now and that we will do betterwith more self-awareness, that
the next friendship is reallymeaningful.
Because I'm not saying we don'tneed these friendships.
(25:58):
Compared to say what men need,I'm saying that we have to make
sure that they really resonatefor us.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yes, and that's true.
I think reflecting on certainrelationships is important and
as we get older women in theirforties, their fifties and so on
and so forth we realize that wedon't need as many friends as
maybe we had when we wereyounger.
We just need good friends,friends who are going to support
(26:25):
us with our dreams, who arepositive reinforcement in our
lives, and people who are goingto accept us for our flaws,
because as human beings, we'renot perfect.
We all make mistakes and it'sthe journey right and not the
destination.
We've talked a lot about thebook, but you know, susan, you
(26:46):
are the person behind this book.
A little bit about you.
You said you're, you're in NewYork, right?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
And I am actually.
The book just came out, so I'mtouring in Florida right now, in
South Florida, and then I goback to Connecticut and New York
and I'll be touring there.
I'll do the Jersey Shore.
This is my 18th book includingoh my gosh, thank you, so a
magical number.
(27:11):
And I, for until COVID, I taughtover 20 years at Marymount
Manhattan College in the writingdepartment, but gender was my
topic, and so I have long beeninvested in learning how women
feel, versus the faces we wear,versus how we really feel as
(27:32):
mothers and daughters, as singlewomen, as colleagues and rivals
and lovers and wives, andmothers-in-law and
daughters-in-law.
What is it we're really lookingfor, and at what price do we pay
for some of these relationshipsto work?
So I've done three studies onthe role of wife in America and
(27:56):
I did a 30-year study on femaleinfidelity that ended up being
an iHeart podcast two years ago,and I wrote a book called
Tripping the Prom Queen theTruth About Women and Rivalry,
where I really looked at how,again, a patriarchal culture
puts women in competitionagainst each other, always about
(28:17):
the limited goods for women,and again that goes right back
to female friendships.
Why are these friendships soimportant to us and why, when
they fail us, do we need toleave?
Because we, as females, are putthrough so much and we endure
and we're acrobatic and we'remultitaskers and solution
(28:40):
oriented, and we were five hatsin one day.
So in the end, the friendshipsare more meaningful than ever.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yes, they are.
And, um yeah, congrats on your18th book.
So it's a strange how strainedfemale friendships are mended or
ended.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
So it came out well, today's the night, yeah, april
1st, and you said you should beat your indie bookstore, or
definitely online and amazon, ofcourse yeah, we've become the
digital age and so, yeah, thisis amazing.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I can't wait to read more of the book.
You know, there's one thing Ihave to say Someone said this to
me and I don't know if you'venoticed this but I feel like
technology has affected us inmany ways.
But I think people are goingback to the book, like a lot of
people now are reading papercopies, like I think there's
been more of an interest for thepaper copy versus the digital
(29:37):
copy of books.
And how do you feel about that?
Do you think it's true?
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Writers always want people to get their information
however they can.
So I'm a digital, I'm in favorof audio.
Nothing like picking up thebook, nothing.
Yes, a visceral experience.
We really feel it, we read it,we have it in our hands in a
certain way.
But I just am so excited when Ihave a stack of books to read.
(30:06):
I just love the real thing.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah me too, as someone who was an avid reader
and my favorite place was thelibrary when I was a kid.
And I think when you look backand you reflect I'm sure you
have as well when you're a kidand there's so many
possibilities.
When you look back, it's likewhat did I like to do Right and
what brought me joy?
(30:28):
And so the fact that you'vewritten another great book and
you're promoting it in Florida,as you said, so this is like a
journey.
Did you like to read a lot whenyou were a kid or were you more
?
Speaker 3 (30:41):
of a writer.
Both Couldn't write enough,couldn't read enough and to this
day I almost lost it.
I'm not reading, and I love toread all different types of
writers.
I think we learned so much.
Books are just so rich.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
They offer us so much in life Is it hard to ask Do
you have a favorite author?
Because I know that's always ahard question, like you know
it's a hard question because Iadmire so many writers.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
I've been running a book club and we've read some
really good fiction this year,so I could just tell you that we
read Beatrice Williams' latestnovel and Roxanna Robinson's,
and, of course, I love theclassics.
I will go back to any EdithWharton novel at any given time
(31:32):
and Jane Austen and I thinkHenry James was a great writer.
I tried to read a very diversegroup of writers in terms of
style and story.
We learned so much and thereare so many different ways to
tell the tale.
So it's great to be able toread something that got so many
(31:54):
people through COVID.
And that makes me think of onething I wanted to say and that
is you know, during COVID, basedon my interviews which I
wrapped up last year and did fora few years, I think that that
was the time when people saidyou know, I don't see this
friend anymore and I'm reallyreevaluating the friendship I
(32:15):
now that COVID was such afrightening and unexpected event
in all our lives that a lot ofus afterwards shapeshifted in
terms of friends and family andwork and love and what we owe
ourselves and what we owe eachother, and some of my
interviewees talked about itbeing a time to bond, and some
(32:38):
of them said it was a time toclean their closet.
So you get the whole pendulumswinging, but it just woke us up
on so many levels, right.
It made us self-reflect.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
It was a hard time, but you're right, it's thanks to
COVID.
I started this podcast.
More seriously, I did the workand so, like you said, the
downtime was either a moment ofreflection and like let's do
this, like go out there and dowhat you said you wanted to do
for so long, or it was a bit ofboth.
You know what I mean, so I'mglad you did the research.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah, it jumpstarted a lot of our reactions,
including to do something asgreat as your podcast.
Thanks To take a look at ourrelationships.
You know I saw a lot ofresearch on how marriages were
affected by COVID too, and itcertainly affected female
(33:34):
friendships.
It's certainly affected femalefriendships, but this has been
long in the works, the idea thatwe face our female friendships
and face ourselves, and we'veseen it with celebrity culture
breakups, and we've seen it inliterature and in, you know, on
film, and we all have read atsome point.
(33:56):
You know Archie comics, forinstance.
Are you a Betty or Veronica?
Do they backstab enough?
Well, yeah, practically everyissue.
And so we we really understandthe setup.
The setup is there are mixedmessages for women in many areas
of our life, and one of themixed messages is and this is
(34:19):
really interesting because whenI worked on my first book on
female friendship called ToxicFriends, I was taking the bus
down Lexington Avenue to teachat Marymount and up Third Avenue
to get back to my apartmentafter, and one day I swear on
the bus I heard two young womensay can you believe she did that
(34:42):
to me about one of theirfriends, and then on the return
bus ride I heard two women alittle older, a little bit more
seasoned, I think in their 40ssay what would I do without my
best female friends, without mybest girlfriend?
Say what would I do without mybest female friends, without my
best girlfriends?
And there's the rub we aretaught to be surprised but also
(35:03):
to understand that someone willdo something pretty wretched and
at the same time, to believethat without our friends we
would be unanchored.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yes, those are some interesting perspectives.
I find, you know, wheneveryou're on the bus, there's
always very interestingconversations.
You know you heard like twosides of friendships all in both
trips.
Humans are very interestingbeings and this is as a result
the book has transpired and Ithink, in many ways, even each
(35:37):
chapter is helpful in a waywhere it will help us understand
the female perspective onfriendship because, like you
said, friendships are reallyimportant and I remember this.
You know the friendship bracelet, like it was such a big thing
when we were kids, like who'syour best friend?
And I think now, as I'm older,I don't know if I think I have a
(36:00):
best friend.
I have a really, really goodfriend that I trust a lot, and
you know, it's like 20 years andonce you get to that point,
it's like you're you're hopingthis is your friend for for life
, and so I appreciate you takingthe time to talk about your
book and your book tour.
I hope it goes well.
It sounds like it's going to befun and, yeah, I'm gonna get
(36:22):
the book for sure, because Ilike having a hard copy.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Thank you so much.
I wanted to add one thing.
You know you said that youhoped each chapter would
illuminate these situations.
But on, actually at the end ofeach chapter, I listed a few
questions that we can considerin approaching this type of
friend.
So, for instance, in thefaithless friend, at the end I
(36:52):
say do you believe that yourexpectations are too high?
Friendships shift with time andcircumstances, is my answer.
If you cannot adjust and beflexible, you might be
contributing to the frictionbetween you and your friend.
Another question why are youholding on to a friend who is
not interested in you anymore?
And I say, we fantasize about aperfect, best friendship as
(37:16):
much as we do about a perfectpartner.
This sentiment contributes towhy we cling when the friendship
is waning and our friend is notgiving back.
So I'm trying to give someperspective that will guide us.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah, I think we all need a little guidance.
Sometimes it's sometimes it'sthe written word that will help
us, or just hearing the advice,because you know what?
Sometimes people will give youadvice and then you're like
you're still contemplating it.
But I think this, this isdefinitely yeah, this will
definitely help, because there'sso many stories, you know
characters that we can relate toand then we realize that, yeah,
(37:54):
it's time to end thisfriendship like it's hard,
that's the hard part by becausefriendships are like marriage,
it's like this person.
You spend so much time withthem.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, no question deep, deeply invested in the
friendships.
Yeah, and sometimes the friendhas done something so
reprehensible.
I interviewed several womenwhere the friend had seduced the
boyfriend, the husband.
Really tough stories really,where the truth is stranger than
fiction.
So the level of betrayal.
(38:25):
A lot of women spoke aboutbeing on a team at work with
someone who was a very dearfriend, a close friend, and then
the idea of being, you know,presented as this woman's when
friend.
And then the idea of being, youknow, presented as this woman's
when.
In fact it was the other womanwho confided on going to put the
words to the book to our bosson Tuesday.
But on Monday this friend saidhere's my new idea.
(38:48):
So really, you know where youhave to say to yourself are you
kidding?
This is time to the time to go.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, what do you think?
Ok, one more question what doyou think about having a friend
at work?
Because work is a touchysubject.
There's been this whole thingeven online.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Now it's very trendy about keeping your personal life
separate from your work and notco-mingling the two life
separate from your work and notco-mingling the two like, yeah,
to have those boundaries so thatwhat I just described doesn't
happen where you know, that'sthe thieving trend.
I think that work is so much apart of our lives, it takes so
(39:31):
much of the day that it's hardnot to become close with
colleagues.
So that part is reallyunderstandable that we just do
sort of cotton to colleagues, topeople at work.
But the trust factor really isa part of it.
(39:52):
And I also interviewed a womanwho confided to her work friend
that her divorce was a disasterand then the friend let everyone
know, you know, and said, ohwell, I thought everyone knew it
anyway.
So you're opening yourself upfor more betrayal.
But you're also in a place whereit's hard to sort of not to
(40:14):
become close because of the timeand shared experience.
So maybe have your radar up,your antenna up and your radar
honed.
But also understand that it'snatural to want to be friends
with people.
You spend a lot of time, soit's complicated so much.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah, yeah there's not just one simple answer to
this one.
You know what I mean, causesome people find they're really
good friends at work and I haveto like I mean we don't work
together anymore, but one of myclosest friends I met working at
Ikea.
So you know, sometimes it'slike yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
And then what about young mothers or mothers older
children, mothers or mothers,older children, and they bond.
But there's often a lot ofcompetition about mothers, about
their children or about theirlives.
So again, you know, there'sthat friction.
But this book is really aboutour close, close friends.
It's not about acquaintances,it's about people where we've
(41:13):
really put in the time andshared the our feelings, and
then something serious goeswrong.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Thank you so much, susan, it was a pleasure.
Yeah, I just want to say to theguests send us, send me a text
or text the show.
The site is diva tonight dotbuzzsproutcom.
I haven't had anyone text theshow, so hopefully this
conversation about friendshipwill spark your interest to text
(41:41):
the show.
Make sure you follow SusanBarash on Instagram.
You're on Instagram as well,right, yeah?
And then, if you plan on,reading the book is strained.
I think this is a book thatmany women will definitely
relate to in many ways.
So, thank you, you're welcome.
I'm Carlene and this is DivaTonight with Susan Barash, or
(42:05):
should I say Susan ShapiroBarash.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back.
Send us a message on Instagramat diva underscore tonight.
Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva.
Tonight I have with me on ZoomSusan Shapiro Barash.
I think we have to emphasizeyour last name because while
there's another, Susan Shapiro,who's also an author, right?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
There's another, susan Shapiro, who's also an
author.
Right, yeah, I know her, andboth professors and both in New
York a lot in common Seenpublishers for a long while.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Wow, I mean, it'd be interesting.
I guess we could talk aboutwhere you grew up and what makes
you you.
Obviously, you wrote adifferent book, a Strange, which
is what we're going to betalking about In terms of the
show.
This is 40, a femaleperspective, but I think when we
talk about women in their 40s,we talk about identity,
(00:55):
communication, friendship.
This is a relationship show, sothis book is based on female
friendships, which is, you know,hollywood glamorizes it in a
way, and you've obviously done alot of research.
So what inspired you to writethe book?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I wanted to write this book for a long time.
So many relationships as femalesin contemporary American
culture, starting in their 20sto their 80s, all across the
country, different ages,ethnicity, race, religion, level
of education, big cities, ruralareas, everything in between.
(01:54):
And what's so fascinating to meis how it really doesn't matter
if you have a graduate degreefrom some Ivy League school or
you barely got through highschool.
If you are having an issue withyour partner, your daughter,
your best friend, a colleague.
We all have the same emotionallonging as females for
(02:20):
everything to go well, for thesteps forward to end up
rewarding us the culturalmessage that if we're good girls
, we do the right thing, thatall good will follow.
And yet there are so many timeswhen that really isn't the case
and we count on our femalefriendships in a way that we
(02:41):
don't count on family, becausewe say, look, family is assigned
, Friendships are by choice.
But in truth we really strugglewith these friendships and I
found women saying, look, it'sharder to let go of a suboptimal
female friend than it is to letgo of a partner who's failing
me.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, and I think the one thing is, when you've known
that person for a long time,but it's also all it takes is
just one thing to happen and itwill like change your whole
perspective on the person thatyou thought you knew.
Because, like all relationships, trust is a big factor, and I
was reading the part where,obviously, you're protecting the
(03:23):
names of the characters byusing different names, but this
one friendship where I guessthey had a falling out because
of a guy, it's always a guy,isn't it Basically?
Yes, yes, you know.
So this girl was waiting on acall from this guy and her
(03:46):
friend didn't tell her like that.
He called, and now she's on herwedding day, right, and now it
comes up, you know, and so Ithat's.
I think a lot of people canrelate now maybe to that
particular incident, butsomething along the lines where
that kind of betrayal, thatlevel of betrayal where you feel
(04:07):
that trust is not an issue andit's actually at the center of
the problem.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
It's really what we are looking for is to be very
safe with these female friends,but there's so much that happens
.
So I divided the book into sevendifferent types of friends, and
that was a result of the 150women with whom I spoke that
very disparate group of women,and what I was hearing was not
(04:34):
only betrayal, but also a friendwho really disparages her
friend, so she doesn't treat herlike an equal or the better
crowd comes along.
She doesn't include that friend.
And, of course, there's thisdifferent view of the world
that's now emerging as a dealbreaker in terms of politics and
(04:56):
vaccine and how we raise ourchildren, in terms of medical
care and I heard a lot of womentalking about that having young
children and saying my friendcan't forgive me because I had
my kids get vaccines, and so thefact is these issues end up
being divisive and really endsthe friendship.
(05:18):
And you said it just takes onething.
But how about when we go on andon for years with a friend,
even though we have a kind ofinkling that she really isn't
doing the best things for us,and then we finally say you know
.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah.
So I know you're protecting thenames, but do you feel like
you've had female friendshipsthat maybe they ended because
that person betrayed your trustor they did something to make
you realize that maybe we don'thave the same moral, morals or
(05:57):
values in terms of like how wetreat people, because your
friends are a reflection of you,like I remember my mom always
saying this your friends willtake you, but they won't take
you back.
When you're younger, you don'trealize how friendship can end
and like how they're areflection of you, right?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
So and also the idea that the cultural message has
been that these best friends areforever.
And what I'm really saying isthat there is a new trend and
that is one where we hit ourlimit and we say this is really
a healthy friendship for me andwe estranged from a place of
(06:37):
power and voice, not where we'redeflated and heartbroken it's
not that there isn't grief whenthe friendship ends because
we're so invested in their verydeep relationships but to be
able to say you know what thisdoesn't work, and I say I'm
finished and feel good about it.
(06:57):
And it's really also selfreflective because we're saying
you know who am I to keep thisgoing.
Because we're saying you knowwho am I to keep this going?
She stole my idea at work, shestole my love interest, or she
didn't tell me the truth aboutthis, or she didn't invite me
here.
Whatever it is thatprecipitates this incredible
(07:18):
realization that I might bebetter off without this.
It's really a new trend and theother part of it is if we are
able to lead, then we get thechance to have better
friendships in the future.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, you know what.
We spend so much time withcertain friends.
I think the idea is letting go.
That's the hard thing, and fromwhat I've read about your book
is that it's more ofinvestigation into friendships
and the different kinds offriendships we have, and the
book is an is a way to let go ofthat person or, you know, help
(07:55):
you navigate whether or not youwant to keep that person in your
life.
It's like you don't want to letgo because it's comfortable.
Right?
That's the hardest thing, right?
The?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
other part about letting go for women is that
women often are part of a groupand if we let go of one person
in the group, we're reallyjeopardizing our own status
within the group and thebelonging might be threatened
too.
Can I really belong here?
If you know?
(08:26):
Let's just call her.
You know Alicia and I knowbecause all seven of us have
been friends or you know Xamount of women for so many
years and I did interview womenwhere they talked about
estranging or being estranged.
Sometimes you're the estrangerand sometimes you're the
(08:48):
estranging, meaning this friendhas pushed you away, but like,
where do we fit in once?
That balance is changed?
So there's a lot at stake inestranging and women often stay
too long, and that's what I'mreally hearing is changing.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, you know, what's interesting is the
examples you talk about in thebook is strange.
Like the unhealthy friendships,right, the faithless friend, I
guess always there until a thirdparty drives a wedge between
you.
So I guess in a groupfriendship that would be bad.
It's interesting you talk aboutthat because I had a group of
friends and two of the closefriends, let's say Amy and
(09:31):
Janice, you know they had afalling out and I was in the
middle and it made things socomplicated when it was my
birthday it became a huge issuebetween who's coming to the
birthday party now and who's notgoing, and it was hard because
you don't know, you were in themiddle and you felt as if you
(09:54):
had to choose.
Yeah, I did.
I felt like I had to choose andthen, either way, someone's not
going to be happy because oneof my friends came to my
birthday dinner and the otherone didn't, because they didn't
want to see the other personright?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
so and you're entitled to be friends with both
of them.
So it's very triangulated.
Yeah, those situations thefaithless friend one of my
categories is often aboutsomething getting between the
closeness of the two friends.
Many times and you mentionedthis before many times it's a
(10:28):
love interest.
Perhaps you end up with someonenew and that person doesn't
really like your friend, and sothe demand really, whether it's
explicit or implicit, is thatyou're not with that friend as
much because your new loveinterest doesn't really like it.
Right, so put it, put in thosesituations.
(10:50):
And then we also have the friendwho and this is a time you know
, a timeless story, and that iswhat one verse she's your friend
, but she's actually jealous.
Yeah, and that chapter I callthe green-ed friend, and it
happens a lot and it might notbe obvious that she's jealous,
(11:11):
but in the stories I uncoveredit was really interesting
because the women would say youknow, I didn't think she was
jealous.
We were in school together, wewere in grad school together,
whatever, you know, we weretogether for a long time, but
then I ended up getting thisplum job, or I ended up earning
so much more money, or I endedup getting married and I have a
(11:33):
baby and she's still single.
Whatever it is, the jealousyand envy starts to be part of
the picture.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, yeah and I think I've seen this before
where if your friend is jealousit's not a good sign.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
It's your friends are supposed to support you, even
to be happy for your success,but many times it isn't the case
, and that's something that wereally have to face, because the
women in this chapter told methat they were uneasy when they
explained their good news to thegroup and they knew that
(12:10):
perhaps two people in the groupwould be very jealous.
It made them very uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So it's more or less.
Do you want to tell that personor like I feel like we have
different friends for differentreasons.
Right, we have really closefriends where you can share
anything with them, or you havefriends that you just hang out
and talk about certain things,not so personal in that way, but
the one friend that youmentioned here, the wayward
(12:37):
friend, drawn to questionable ordangerous behavior.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Well, that's a really tricky category because, yeah,
dangerous behavior.
Well, that's a really trickycategory because the women whom
I spoke for that chapter weredescribing a friend with whom
they had, you know, greatcloseness and often a history,
who maybe that friend was nowdoing drugs or had a drinking
problem or a gambling problem,an addiction, anorexia perhaps.
(13:05):
And those women were justsaying that they were very
conflicted because they didn'twant to be an enabler but they
cared so much about the friendthat they didn't want to turn
their back on her, but sheneeded help beyond what they
could do.
And so do you leave that friendor do you stay and take on that
(13:27):
daunting task of really gettingher the right help?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, I think if it's toxic and it's not helping you,
you can only help someone somuch because we all have to help
ourselves too.
But I think that's a reallyhard decision to make with that
kind of friendship.
I actually had wayward friend.
This was someone I knew likewhen I was in university and I
met her at an event and shewasn't dangerous with her like
(13:54):
eating habits or what, but itwas who she would bring to an
event and I remember going tothis party with her.
I was always this more sociableone and I told her not to bring
this guy and I don't know, Ijust had this feeling like gut
feeling.
I'm like this is not a goodperson to hang around with.
And lo and behold, he came tothe party and then we ended up
(14:17):
at another place and we didn'tgo home as planned and so ended
up out of the city and then weboth have work in the morning
and I was just so upset at theend of the night with her
because she put me in asituation where it wasn't good.
(14:41):
You know what I mean the other,the other friend, the friend.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
You are put in a position that is not only wrong
for you but not healthy for herand for you as someone close to
her, and so it's reallyuntenable.
And in some of these interviewsthe women said I just had to
let it go and others had certainrequirements, like there was
(15:08):
one you know in the book I have,she said.
She said so.
Even though I had manyinterviews that are short
vignettes, I do have per chapterone long interview where both
sides spoke to me, both friends,oh, wow, yeah, which was really
(15:29):
really fascinating as ajournalist to listen to, and
very poignant stories.
And in this chapter, thissection on the wayward fringe,
the two women named Brittany andCeline said to me it all works
as long as the friend who hasthe drug problem is sober, but
the friendship is put injeopardy and that's when really
(15:52):
the healthier friend is put in aterrible position.
So we have to really thinkabout what we can and can't do
for our friends in any of thesecategories, yeah, and for
ourselves, as you said before,you know when do we leave a very
unhealthy friendship?
When we really have enoughself-knowledge and self-honesty
(16:15):
to say you know what.
This shouldn't be this way.
You would say it in a romanticrelationship, I'm not getting
what I need, or I'm walking oneggshells, or she did this to me
and I have to face it.
That's when we evolve and weend up estranging.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I think when you're young, you're so hopeful.
Those are the times when you'relike, oh, you know, this is a,
you know, a good friend.
You always have a good time.
But then when you get intothose situations over and over
again where it's like the dramayou know, right, right, and the
justification.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
So many women said to me oh, our parents have been
friends, our mothers are friends, our grandmothers knew each
other, we grew up in the sametown, we went to the same
college, we went to the samechurch.
As if this, like commonexperience, would justify some
(17:13):
really egregious situationswhere the friend has really not
been an authentic friend.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
So if they didn't have those strong ties to that
friend, would they still befriends with them?
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Some would, because, beyond the fact that maybe your
mothers knew each other, thereis the fact that the two of you
have shared all this, theseexperiences in this history.
But there is a lot of excusemaking in these friendships
where women say I want to leave,but you know, we have known
(17:48):
each other since kindergarten,or we met when we were both
pregnant, or we met when we weregetting married or divorced.
But there's some stories inthis book, if I say so myself,
that just were amazing.
I interviewed a woman who hadgrown up in the same church, one
(18:09):
that was very demanding andthey had taken she and her
friend had taken a verydifferent view of what adult
life would look like for each ofthem, even though they had
shared the mores and beliefs ofthe church, and that was a real
deal breaker.
And they actually had a verycivilized kind of divorce, I'll
(18:32):
call it where they said you know, you're on a different path now
than I.
I have stayed with this churchand you have not, and it's time
to go.
And that doesn't always happen.
You know, there's some ghostingin this book where friends just
do the slow fade or theghosting, the whole ghosting
thing, I don't know.
Like I mean, you know there'ssome ghosting in this book where
friends just do the slow fadeor the ghosting.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
The whole ghosting thing, I don't know.
Like, I mean, you don't alwayswant to do that, right, and I
guess there's a proper way to dothings, especially if you have
a really good friend.
And it's interesting.
I remember this one friend ofmine that what did I meet her?
Oh, I met her at York and yeah,we were good friends, friends,
(19:11):
but for me it felt like webarely saw each other.
She was always busy and I'mlike to me, if I have a friend,
we should at least be able tosee each other.
Like, even once in a while youcan't be that busy.
And so I think I ended itabruptly, not really explaining
myself, because I felt like Iwas giving more to the
friendship and I just said, youknow, I don't think this is
(19:31):
going to work.
And I think for her she wantedme to maybe explain myself
better.
But I was like, what else couldI say to you?
Like, I try to meet up and it'snot happening.
I mean, if I had to do it again, I probably would have
explained it better.
But, like you said, it's one ofthose things where sometimes we
act abruptly, but sometimesit's for the best right.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, I think that what you're talking about is the
kind of mutual respect, and Ilooked into that and sometimes
one friend really doesn'trespect the other friend's time
or expectations in the same way,and so we have a situation
where you don't feel like youcount, and that's a very
(20:13):
difficult place to be in afriendship.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Diva Tonight Glamour for your ears.
This is 40, a femaleperspective.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
You know, I also looked per chapter.
While this book is aboutfriends and, as we said earlier,
friends we get to choose, notlike family, we're assigned.
But I did want to interview onesister story per chapter,
because years ago I had done astudy on sisters, called Sisters
(20:43):
Devoted or Divided, calledSisters Devoted or Divided, and
I found that if a woman is veryclose to her sister or sisters,
she doesn't always have the sameneed for closeness and bonding
with female friends.
So I wanted to hear about thefemale friendship versus sisters
.
So the sisters who had had abreakup often felt very much
(21:06):
that they were pushed togetheronly because they were a family
and that they, you know, sort ofwoke up and said wait a second,
we've been forced to betogether, but now we're adult
women and just because we'resisters, there's the opposite of
friendship where we say youknow, I choose you, I select
this friendship to be ours.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
That's a very interesting perspective.
I think I'll have to read aboutthat, because I have four
sisters and I'm the oldest, yeah, and so sometimes I say this as
a joke when I'm not gettingalong with one sister, there's
another sister I can talk to.
But that aside, I do want tobring up your stats.
Obviously, you've done a lot ofresearch, and you said your
(21:49):
background is in journalism, butI do want to mention some of
the statistics that you'vegathered from your interviews.
88% of women have had a problemwith a close friend.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
And let me explain that this research is reflective
of the 150 women with whom Ispoke for the book and then, at
the end of the book, I did aquestionnaire of another 111
women.
So this is the result, and 55%told me that they felt obligated
to stay in these friendshipsand not be able you know, more
(22:27):
obligated to stay than, say, ifthey were married or in a love
relationship.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So 75% feel more obligated to stay with a female
friend than a partner or ahusband.
Why do you think that?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Again it goes to this myth that we've all been fed or
taught that best friendsforever is our banner and that
failing at that or losing thatbest friend would be so
complicated and so antitheticalto the way that we've been
(23:01):
taught and we trust thesefriends and we don't expect
betrayal.
We don't expect them to lie tous, we don't expect them to be
hierarchical.
So because of the expectation,women really feel as if they
just have to hang in, even ifit's really not a good
(23:23):
friendship or a healthy one.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
So, because we're talking about the female
perspective, there's one thing Iwant to ask you, because you've
interviewed women 150, wouldyou do this with men?
Have you thought about thatfrom a male point?
Because I find that malefriendships are a little bit
different in the sense thatthere's so many things you know,
bros, before you know.
I'm not going to say the word,but I find that I think men are
(23:48):
more laid back with theirfriendships than women are and,
like women are more emotional,right when it comes to certain
things, like you know what Imean.
Like you said that the malealways intervening like oh, we
both like the same guy, you knowthat creates the drama and
that's where issues lie.
Or the betrayal, because youstole my idea or you're I had.
(24:10):
You know everything you'vementioned.
I've had a friend where thathas happened and it's kind of
like dawn on me.
I'm like why am I investingtime in this person?
You know.
I think the answer is in severalI know I asked you more than
one thing so so number one.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
First of all, let me just say let's not do a book on
men, because male friendships itwould be.
I never for any of mynonfiction.
The only way I can report aboutmen is through the women who
speak of men, my interviewees.
And I think that if I wanted towrite a book on male friendship
, which I don't, that it wouldend up being a pamphlet because
(24:52):
there's not much to it.
They don't hold the bar as highmen and we live in a patriarchy
and we'll die in a patriarchy,and in a patriarchy there is
male power over female power, aswe know, and male supremacy.
So men don't look and again, Ihaven't interviewed men, but I
(25:13):
would contrast it this way Mendon't expect as much because so
much is given to them.
In a patriarchal culture, womenreally go deep and exchange
ideas and trade secrets and thisis supposedly a very safe place
(25:36):
for us within a male-dominatedculture.
And that's why you know, theidea that you can leave a friend
if it's not healthy is trendingnow and estranging is trending
now and that we will do betterwith more self-awareness, that
the next friendship is reallymeaningful.
Because I'm not saying we don'tneed these friendships.
(25:58):
Compared to say what men need,I'm saying that we have to make
sure that they really resonatefor us.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yes, and that's true.
I think reflecting on certainrelationships is important and
as we get older women in theirforties, their fifties and so on
and so forth we realize that wedon't need as many friends as
maybe we had when we wereyounger.
We just need good friends,friends who are going to support
(26:25):
us with our dreams, who arepositive reinforcement in our
lives, and people who are goingto accept us for our flaws,
because as human beings, we'renot perfect.
We all make mistakes and it'sthe journey right and not the
destination.
We've talked a lot about thebook, but you know, susan, you
(26:46):
are the person behind this book.
A little bit about you.
You said you're, you're in NewYork, right?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
And I am actually.
The book just came out, so I'mtouring in Florida right now, in
South Florida, and then I goback to Connecticut and New York
and I'll be touring there.
I'll do the Jersey Shore.
This is my 18th book includingoh my gosh, thank you, so a
magical number.
(27:11):
And I, for until COVID, I taughtover 20 years at Marymount
Manhattan College in the writingdepartment, but gender was my
topic, and so I have long beeninvested in learning how women
feel, versus the faces we wear,versus how we really feel as
(27:32):
mothers and daughters, as singlewomen, as colleagues and rivals
and lovers and wives, andmothers-in-law and
daughters-in-law.
What is it we're really lookingfor, and at what price do we pay
for some of these relationshipsto work?
So I've done three studies onthe role of wife in America and
(27:56):
I did a 30-year study on femaleinfidelity that ended up being
an iHeart podcast two years ago,and I wrote a book called
Tripping the Prom Queen theTruth About Women and Rivalry,
where I really looked at how,again, a patriarchal culture
puts women in competitionagainst each other, always about
(28:17):
the limited goods for women,and again that goes right back
to female friendships.
Why are these friendships soimportant to us and why, when
they fail us, do we need toleave?
Because we, as females, are putthrough so much and we endure
and we're acrobatic and we'remultitaskers and solution
(28:40):
oriented, and we were five hatsin one day.
So in the end, the friendshipsare more meaningful than ever.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yes, they are.
And, um yeah, congrats on your18th book.
So it's a strange how strainedfemale friendships are mended or
ended.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
So it came out well, today's the night, yeah, april
1st, and you said you should beat your indie bookstore, or
definitely online and amazon, ofcourse yeah, we've become the
digital age and so, yeah, thisis amazing.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I can't wait to read more of the book.
You know, there's one thing Ihave to say Someone said this to
me and I don't know if you'venoticed this but I feel like
technology has affected us inmany ways.
But I think people are goingback to the book, like a lot of
people now are reading papercopies, like I think there's
been more of an interest for thepaper copy versus the digital
(29:37):
copy of books.
And how do you feel about that?
Do you think it's true?
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Writers always want people to get their information
however they can.
So I'm a digital, I'm in favorof audio.
Nothing like picking up thebook, nothing.
Yes, a visceral experience.
We really feel it, we read it,we have it in our hands in a
certain way.
But I just am so excited when Ihave a stack of books to read.
(30:06):
I just love the real thing.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah me too, as someone who was an avid reader
and my favorite place was thelibrary when I was a kid.
And I think when you look backand you reflect I'm sure you
have as well when you're a kidand there's so many
possibilities.
When you look back, it's likewhat did I like to do Right and
what brought me joy?
(30:28):
And so the fact that you'vewritten another great book and
you're promoting it in Florida,as you said, so this is like a
journey.
Did you like to read a lot whenyou were a kid or were you more
?
Speaker 3 (30:41):
of a writer.
Both Couldn't write enough,couldn't read enough and to this
day I almost lost it.
I'm not reading, and I love toread all different types of
writers.
I think we learned so much.
Books are just so rich.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
They offer us so much in life Is it hard to ask Do
you have a favorite author?
Because I know that's always ahard question, like you know
it's a hard question because Iadmire so many writers.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
I've been running a book club and we've read some
really good fiction this year,so I could just tell you that we
read Beatrice Williams' latestnovel and Roxanna Robinson's,
and, of course, I love theclassics.
I will go back to any EdithWharton novel at any given time
(31:32):
and Jane Austen and I thinkHenry James was a great writer.
I tried to read a very diversegroup of writers in terms of
style and story.
We learned so much and thereare so many different ways to
tell the tale.
So it's great to be able toread something that got so many
(31:54):
people through COVID.
And that makes me think of onething I wanted to say and that
is you know, during COVID, basedon my interviews which I
wrapped up last year and did fora few years, I think that that
was the time when people saidyou know, I don't see this
friend anymore and I'm reallyreevaluating the friendship I
(32:15):
now that COVID was such afrightening and unexpected event
in all our lives that a lot ofus afterwards shapeshifted in
terms of friends and family andwork and love and what we owe
ourselves and what we owe eachother, and some of my
interviewees talked about itbeing a time to bond, and some
(32:38):
of them said it was a time toclean their closet.
So you get the whole pendulumswinging, but it just woke us up
on so many levels, right.
It made us self-reflect.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
It was a hard time, but you're right, it's thanks to
COVID.
I started this podcast.
More seriously, I did the workand so, like you said, the
downtime was either a moment ofreflection and like let's do
this, like go out there and dowhat you said you wanted to do
for so long, or it was a bit ofboth.
You know what I mean, so I'mglad you did the research.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah, it jumpstarted a lot of our reactions,
including to do something asgreat as your podcast.
Thanks To take a look at ourrelationships.
You know I saw a lot ofresearch on how marriages were
affected by COVID too, and itcertainly affected female
(33:34):
friendships.
It's certainly affected femalefriendships, but this has been
long in the works, the idea thatwe face our female friendships
and face ourselves, and we'veseen it with celebrity culture
breakups, and we've seen it inliterature and in, you know, on
film, and we all have read atsome point.
(33:56):
You know Archie comics, forinstance.
Are you a Betty or Veronica?
Do they backstab enough?
Well, yeah, practically everyissue.
And so we we really understandthe setup.
The setup is there are mixedmessages for women in many areas
of our life, and one of themixed messages is and this is
(34:19):
really interesting because whenI worked on my first book on
female friendship called ToxicFriends, I was taking the bus
down Lexington Avenue to teachat Marymount and up Third Avenue
to get back to my apartmentafter, and one day I swear on
the bus I heard two young womensay can you believe she did that
(34:42):
to me about one of theirfriends, and then on the return
bus ride I heard two women alittle older, a little bit more
seasoned, I think in their 40ssay what would I do without my
best female friends, without mybest girlfriend?
Say what would I do without mybest female friends, without my
best girlfriends?
And there's the rub we aretaught to be surprised but also
(35:03):
to understand that someone willdo something pretty wretched and
at the same time, to believethat without our friends we
would be unanchored.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yes, those are some interesting perspectives.
I find, you know, wheneveryou're on the bus, there's
always very interestingconversations.
You know you heard like twosides of friendships all in both
trips.
Humans are very interestingbeings and this is as a result
the book has transpired and Ithink, in many ways, even each
(35:37):
chapter is helpful in a waywhere it will help us understand
the female perspective onfriendship because, like you
said, friendships are reallyimportant and I remember this.
You know the friendship bracelet, like it was such a big thing
when we were kids, like who'syour best friend?
And I think now, as I'm older,I don't know if I think I have a
(36:00):
best friend.
I have a really, really goodfriend that I trust a lot, and
you know, it's like 20 years andonce you get to that point,
it's like you're you're hopingthis is your friend for for life
, and so I appreciate you takingthe time to talk about your
book and your book tour.
I hope it goes well.
It sounds like it's going to befun and, yeah, I'm gonna get
(36:22):
the book for sure, because Ilike having a hard copy.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Thank you so much.
I wanted to add one thing.
You know you said that youhoped each chapter would
illuminate these situations.
But on, actually at the end ofeach chapter, I listed a few
questions that we can considerin approaching this type of
friend.
So, for instance, in thefaithless friend, at the end I
(36:52):
say do you believe that yourexpectations are too high?
Friendships shift with time andcircumstances, is my answer.
If you cannot adjust and beflexible, you might be
contributing to the frictionbetween you and your friend.
Another question why are youholding on to a friend who is
not interested in you anymore?
And I say, we fantasize about aperfect, best friendship as
(37:16):
much as we do about a perfectpartner.
This sentiment contributes towhy we cling when the friendship
is waning and our friend is notgiving back.
So I'm trying to give someperspective that will guide us.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah, I think we all need a little guidance.
Sometimes it's sometimes it'sthe written word that will help
us, or just hearing the advice,because you know what?
Sometimes people will give youadvice and then you're like
you're still contemplating it.
But I think this, this isdefinitely yeah, this will
definitely help, because there'sso many stories, you know
characters that we can relate toand then we realize that, yeah,
(37:54):
it's time to end thisfriendship like it's hard,
that's the hard part by becausefriendships are like marriage,
it's like this person.
You spend so much time withthem.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, no question deep, deeply invested in the
friendships.
Yeah, and sometimes the friendhas done something so
reprehensible.
I interviewed several womenwhere the friend had seduced the
boyfriend, the husband.
Really tough stories really,where the truth is stranger than
fiction.
So the level of betrayal.
(38:25):
A lot of women spoke aboutbeing on a team at work with
someone who was a very dearfriend, a close friend, and then
the idea of being, you know,presented as this woman's when
friend.
And then the idea of being, youknow, presented as this woman's
when.
In fact it was the other womanwho confided on going to put the
words to the book to our bosson Tuesday.
But on Monday this friend saidhere's my new idea.
(38:48):
So really, you know where youhave to say to yourself are you
kidding?
This is time to the time to go.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, what do you think?
Ok, one more question what doyou think about having a friend
at work?
Because work is a touchysubject.
There's been this whole thingeven online.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
Now it's very trendy about keeping your personal life
separate from your work and notco-mingling the two life
separate from your work and notco-mingling the two like, yeah,
to have those boundaries so thatwhat I just described doesn't
happen where you know, that'sthe thieving trend.
I think that work is so much apart of our lives, it takes so
(39:31):
much of the day that it's hardnot to become close with
colleagues.
So that part is reallyunderstandable that we just do
sort of cotton to colleagues, topeople at work.
But the trust factor really isa part of it.
(39:52):
And I also interviewed a womanwho confided to her work friend
that her divorce was a disasterand then the friend let everyone
know, you know, and said, ohwell, I thought everyone knew it
anyway.
So you're opening yourself upfor more betrayal.
But you're also in a place whereit's hard to sort of not to
(40:14):
become close because of the timeand shared experience.
So maybe have your radar up,your antenna up and your radar
honed.
But also understand that it'snatural to want to be friends
with people.
You spend a lot of time, soit's complicated so much.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah, yeah there's not just one simple answer to
this one.
You know what I mean, causesome people find they're really
good friends at work and I haveto like I mean we don't work
together anymore, but one of myclosest friends I met working at
Ikea.
So you know, sometimes it'slike yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
And then what about young mothers or mothers older
children, mothers or mothers,older children, and they bond.
But there's often a lot ofcompetition about mothers, about
their children or about theirlives.
So again, you know, there'sthat friction.
But this book is really aboutour close, close friends.
It's not about acquaintances,it's about people where we've
(41:13):
really put in the time andshared the our feelings, and
then something serious goeswrong.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Thank you so much, susan, it was a pleasure.
Yeah, I just want to say to theguests send us, send me a text
or text the show.
The site is diva tonight dotbuzzsproutcom.
I haven't had anyone text theshow, so hopefully this
conversation about friendshipwill spark your interest to text
(41:41):
the show.
Make sure you follow SusanBarash on Instagram.
You're on Instagram as well,right, yeah?
And then, if you plan on,reading the book is strained.
I think this is a book thatmany women will definitely
relate to in many ways.
So, thank you, you're welcome.
I'm Carlene and this is DivaTonight with Susan Barash, or
(42:05):
should I say Susan ShapiroBarash.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back.
Send us a message on Instagramat diva underscore tonight.
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