December 3, 2025 • 46 mins
We trace a small coffee clash into a masterclass on anger: how pride fuels escalation, how to de‑escalate when stakes feel high, and how midlife hormones can set the stage for rage. Julie shares evidence‑based steps for calm choices, plus candid stories about medical hurdles, HRT, and building autonomy at work and in life.
• Anger triggers and the cost of being right
• Practical de‑escalation in retail and public spaces
• Fight, flight, fawn, freeze and the amygdala
• Breathing, goals, and outcome‑focused choices
• Perimenopause, menopause, and mood shifts
• How to ask doctors for tests and HRT
• Invisible labor and midlife emotional load
• Boundaries, timeouts, and flexible work
• Career pivot to autonomy and client fit
• Data over feelings when advocating for care
Check out the app, it's Anger Solutions
https://anger-solutions-guide-756772023757.us-west1.run.app/
Julie Christiansen is a Therapist, Keynote Speaker and Author of Rise of Rage.
Leverage U – www.leverageu.ca
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:03):
Hi, I'm Carlene, and this is Diva.
Tonight, I'm thrilled to havewith me Julie Christensen, a
renowned psychotherapist,author, and speaker with nearly
three decades of experience incommunication and personal
development.
And she is the author of Rise ofRage, and she's an expert when
(00:24):
it comes to anger management.
And so hi, Julie.
Hello.
SPEAKER_03 (00:31):
How are you?
I'm great.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
SPEAKER_01 (00:35):
Oh, thanks for being here.
I wanted to bring up somethingthat happened to me yesterday.
And hopefully you can relate tothis one because that's your
focus.
So yesterday I went toMcDonald's.
I wanted a coffee.
And so I'm like, okay, I needlike a little pick-me up because
the weather is like so gloomy.
So I got myself a medium doubledouble.
(00:56):
Then they gave me my receipt,right?
Which is the number they callout.
They call out my number.
And this guy goes up and hetakes my coffee.
And I'm away.
Yes.
So I'm like, that's my order.
And he's like, no, no, no, no,no.
He's like, I ordered a coffee.
And I'm like, my number's 269.
And then I go tell the ladies,and then they're like, oh, you
(01:18):
guys have the same order.
I'm like, no, we didn't.
He he took my medium doubledouble, and his coffee was a
dark black.
And so he was adamant that thatwas that he could take my order.
And so they had to remake mycoffee.
Now I could have snapped, whichis probably what I wanted to do.
Because I'm like, I like, Imean, it's not their fault.
(01:39):
It's his fault for beingignorant, right?
And so I let him walk off.
And then I'm like, can you guysjust make my coffee again,
please?
You know what I mean?
And I just handled it like in acivil way.
I could have been made a sceneabout it, which is what,
depending on the mood I'm in,right?
We're all likely to do that.
But I'm like, you know what?
It's not their fault.
(02:00):
I just wanted my coffee.
So yeah, they made me and theymade my coffee with my order,
but it just makes me think aboutyour situation that you had when
you went to McDonald's.
SPEAKER_03 (02:14):
Yeah, this was this was many years ago.
I wanted a quarter pounder withcheese.
And so I I went through thedrive-thru and I ordered my
quarter pounder of cheese, andthey handed me my bag, and the
bag felt real light, you know.
I was like, this feels weird.
So I I pulled into a parkingspot.
I opened up my my sandwich, andthere was no meat in there.
(02:37):
There was everything else butthe burger.
And so I was like, oh, okay.
I went back around and I Iparked my car, went into the
restaurant, and I walked up tothe counter.
And I honestly I thought it wasfunny.
I really did, because I I thinkas I told you the first time I
shared this story with you, Ididn't need to eat the
(02:58):
hamburger.
I'm gluten intolerant and I'mlactose intolerant.
I should not be eating bread andcheese, but here I am ordering
this quarter pounder.
They give me everything exceptfor the part that I'm allowed to
eat.
You know, like the whole thingwas just kind of comical.
So when I went in, I walked upto the counter and I said, I
pulled out the the container andI said, I don't know if you're
gonna get this reference or not,but where's the beef?
(03:19):
And she looked and she just shewent into panic mode.
She was like, Oh my gosh, Ican't believe it, you know, and
she ran off and and they were soapologetic, and and they were
like, What can we do for you?
And I was like, just give me anew hamburger.
And they're like, Do you want anew i do you want an ice cream?
Do you want something else?
I was like, No, this is alreadymore calories than I should be
eating today's, but just youknow, give me the thing because
I'm hungry.
(03:39):
Uh so they made it for me, andand the girl at the counter
expressed gratitude to me.
She was like, I'm so thankfulthat you handled it this way,
because a lot of people wouldlose their minds over a mistake
like that.
And I was like, it's just apiece, like it's just a
hamburger.
It's not, you know, like theworld isn't ending because I
didn't get meat in my bun.
(04:00):
It's fine.
But that that shows to me howeasily people can escalate.
And I think what's interestingabout your story is that even
though you had the proof, right?
You had the proof, you had thereceipt, show him that this is
not what you ordered, thisperson decided he was he was
happier being right, right?
(04:20):
It was better for him to beright than for him to be happy.
Because if he ordered a darkblack, he guarantee once he got
in the car and drank that doubledouble and realized it was not
his order, now he's gonna haveto be miserable because he's not
coming back into the restaurantto say you were right and I was
wrong, because his pride is moreimportant.
Right, right.
So this person not onlysacrificed his his enjoyment of
(04:42):
his morning coffee, he he madelife more difficult for you, and
he didn't end up getting what hewanted.
So it's like just take a minute,just take a minute, take a step
back and go, okay, well, let'slet's take a look here.
Oh, you know what?
You're absolutely right.
This isn't my coffee.
I apologize.
Here you go.
Let me take mine, have a greatday, and off we go.
(05:04):
Like it doesn't even thatdoesn't even require anger
management or anger resolutionskills.
That just requires a modicum ofrespect for other people, you
know.
If if you respect other people,then you would at least hear
them out and see whether or notyou did make a mistake.
When you're not willing to dothat, that's when things go a
little off the rails.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
Yeah.
I think for me, it was more orless how I handled it because
I'm just like, I was getting alittle annoyed because I'm
trying to explain to him thatthat's not his order, and I'm
showing him my order ticket.
I didn't show him my receipt,but like he was in a rush, and
it was like, he's just like sohe's like, this is he's like, I
(05:47):
ordered a coffee, that's mycoffee, and then he just walked
away.
And I was just like, so then thestaff have to help me now
because it's like, well, whichis really yeah, how it should
be, right?
SPEAKER_03 (05:58):
Because you did the right thing, you didn't cause a
scene.
I've been in Starbucks when ascene has been caused, it's not
pretty, like it totally wrecksthe vibes.
You know, your laptop and you'rechilling and you're having your
night ten dollar mocha latte,whatever you're drinking, and
then these two two fools startfighting over who should be in
(06:19):
line and why don't you hurry upand order your coffee because
you've already butt it.
Like, boys, take it outside.
You know, like we don't needthis.
So, like, you chose the rightpath by saying, you know what,
it's just a coffee.
And at the end of the day, thisis the key thing I wanted to
point point out is that youdecided at the end of the day
what was most important to youwas getting your coffee.
(06:41):
And so you knew you weren'tgoing to get the coffee by
trying to fight him for it.
So let him go and then turn tothe people who can actually help
you solve the problem and askthem to make you your coffee for
your order and then be on yourway, right?
Like you handled it correctly.
What happens is people losesight of what they actually
want, what their end objectiveis.
Oh, right, right.
(07:02):
And so for him, his primaryobjective in that moment was to
be right.
And so all he cared about wastaking what was his and carrying
on with his day, notunderstanding that in doing so,
he wasn't actually getting whathe wanted.
And now, like I said, he's tooembarrassed to go back.
So he has to fuck it up anddrink the double double, you
(07:22):
know?
Whereas you were like, you knowwhat, I'm just gonna stay calm
and ask people if they canremake it for me, and I'm gonna
walk away with what I wanted inthe first place.
SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
It's true, it's true.
I think I've had like I thinkover the years I've learned
what's worth getting angry overand what not.
But I think I don't alwaysprocess it too, especially when
I'm at work.
I think in in the work setting,I I'm not that person.
And I've been told many times,like, Carlene, you are way too
nice because I've had peopleyelling at me, like my work in
(07:54):
retail.
And so that's the name of thegame where people get upset if
they are, you know, asked,because we have to ask for ID
where I work, and as soon asthey're asked, and they they
think like the per the personwho asked for ID is in the
wrong, then it becomes like, oh,you're a racist or you're this,
and then it escalates.
And I've seen it happen whereI'm just sitting there watching
(08:17):
the behavior and I'm like, we'vebeen taught to how to
de-escalate things, but in themoment, some of my colleagues
they don't de-escalate, theyactually make it even worse.
And so then the shift lead hasto come out.
Um, I'm I won't say her name,but like I'll say person A, um,
she was just getting so angry atthe customer who was telling her
(08:39):
off, and then she just got soangry.
I've never seen her like that,but I think this job has gotten
to her in some instances whereshe's not gonna be quiet
anymore.
And so the shift lead comes outand they're like, okay, person
A, just go to the office, andthen they have to deal with the
customer who is so high strung,so angry, and like they leave
(09:00):
angry, you know, and it's reallylike you said, it's it's
sometimes it's not worth it.
I and sometimes I wish I wouldreact to what they're saying to
me, but I can give you anotheran example.
So when I worked at downtownBrampton, I had this grandfather
come in with his kids, and theysaid, I said, I can't serve you,
like you are underage and likeyou can't buy for them.
(09:22):
And then he got so mad, he waslike, You fucking bitch, and did
it.
I was like, I'm doing my job.
You're buying alcohol forminors, and they don't even have
ID.
Like, you know what I mean?
And that's when people getupset, or you know, and there's
no way to de-escalate it at thatpoint.
Like, I mean, all I did was Iwas just quiet.
And then I think either mymanager came out to talk to that
(09:46):
person, but then again, mycoworker is like, Carle, I can't
believe you didn't say anything.
I'm like, what am I supposed todo?
Yeah, what's the I mean, in myeyes, what's the me swearing at
him back or like responding tohis ignorance, it it really is
not gonna do, it's not gonnachange anything because he's
very ignorant, right?
SPEAKER_03 (10:04):
So yeah, and and you're you're right, because
number one, you're doing a job,so you're representing your
employer, and you need torepresent your employer in a way
that maintains professionalism.
Number two, when the otherperson is in the wrong and
they're the one making all thefuss, let them have at it.
Really, because anything yousay, when someone's already
(10:28):
escalating, anything you say isgoing to escalate them further.
Because anger has this uniquequality that when your amygdala
gets engaged, it shuts off allyour higher order reasoning.
And so you're not hearing aswell.
Oh, you're certainly not makingsense of what people are saying
to you.
Yeah.
(10:48):
Because your amygdala is runningthe show and the amygdala wants
satisfaction.
That's all it wants.
It doesn't, it doesn't wantcommon sense, right?
So you trying to say, sir,please calm down.
What do you mean?
I'm already come, right?
Like nothing you say is going tobring them down.
All you can do is step backwithin reason, right?
(11:10):
If they're a danger tothemselves or to anybody else,
then you gotta you've gotta dowhat's necessary, you know,
whatever your your guidelinesare.
But otherwise, let it out.
Go for it.
It's like when a two-year-old ishaving a tantrum.
Okay, get it out of your system.
When you're done, we'll talk.
But for right now, I'm justgonna sit here and I'm gonna
stare at you like you're analien.
(11:32):
Yeah.
Because you're not acting humanright now.
So go ahead, do what you gottado.
When you're done, we willreiterate the policy and give
you a choice as to whether ornot you would like to leave or
whether you would like someoneto help you leave.
SPEAKER_01 (11:47):
Yeah.
Those are your options.
Yeah, yeah.
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (11:51):
Like that's it.
Uh otherwise, what happens thenis anger escalates.
When he calms down, if he if Imean he's a grandfather, when he
calms down, he should be able toreason that what he was doing
was actually illegal and youweren't targeting him in any way
by telling him, no, you weredoing your job.
(12:14):
And maybe common sense wouldsay, next time you go to buy
booze for your minorgrandchildren, maybe you don't
bring them with you, you idiot.
Go buy your go buy your booze,and then if you want to share it
with them, share it with them,but don't go dragging them into
the into the store.
SPEAKER_02 (12:30):
Yeah, I know, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (12:32):
Because you pretty much know you're gonna get
turned down at that point,right?
So he will figure that outeventually, but he won't be able
to figure it out in the momentbecause his brain isn't capable
of doing that kind of higherorder reasoning because it's
engulfed in that fight or flightstate of mind.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Yeah.
So fight or flight, let's let'stalk about that.
I I don't know if peopleunderstand what that is, but
fight or flight, like whenyou're in a difficult situation
and it's fight or flight.
So you're reacting withoutnecessarily thinking about what
yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
Yeah.
So what happens whenever we aretriggered by any kind of a
stimulus that is scary, it's itmakes you angry, it feels like a
violation of some sort, any kindof a negative stimulus.
The brain immediately goes intothis fight or flight mode.
And it's actually not just fightor flight.
(13:28):
We can go into fight mode, whichis where we're like, you know,
some people are just geared forthat.
Like I am, I am gonna fight you,I'm gonna everything you say to
me, I'm coming back withsomething else.
Like I will chirp for chirp,right?
And then you've got the flight,which is where people might be
hardwired to retreat.
And so I'm just gonna get awayfrom the situation as as quickly
(13:51):
as I can.
Uh, and then we have fawn, andfawning is where we just give
in.
And I think that's perhaps wherethis grandfather was hoping that
if he got aggressive enough thatyou would just say, Oh, you know
what, sir, it's fine.
I'm so sorry, I'll just give youwhat you want.
Uh, but not everybody fawns, andnot everybody fawns all the
(14:12):
time, right?
And then there is freeze.
Some people just freeze up andthey're not able to do anything
at all.
That's why, you know, when wewatch these movies like
Godzilla, yeah, I'm always I'mI'm always just or Jurassic
Park, you know, we watch thesemovies and people see this this
ginormous T-Rex coming for them,and they just stand there and
(14:33):
they're rooted to the spot, andeverybody in the theater is
going, Run, why aren't yourunning?
Right?
Like the and they're just frozenbecause that is an aspect of
this fight, flight, fawn, freezeresponse.
So, yeah, when that happens,it's very difficult to come up
with an alternate response thanthe one your body sort of
(14:54):
automatically chooses, because,like I said, higher order
thinking is kind of shut off.
So the way that we re-engagethat is number one, by taking as
many deep breaths as we'recapable, because then it pushes
oxygen back up into our frontallobe so that we can do better at
decision making.
And then the other thing we needto do is once we start pushing
(15:15):
oxygen into the frontal lobesand they re-engage is to start
asking ourselves some keyquestions really quick, right?
So that we can make someinformed decisions.
So those questions includewhat's happening, what does this
mean?
How do I feel about it?
What should I do?
What's my what's my desiredoutcome?
Right.
So in your case with McDonald's,your desired outcome was I want
(15:39):
my coffee, right?
I want my medium double double.
That is what I want.
So knowing that that's what youwant, then you say, okay, what's
the best thing I can do to getthat outcome?
Yeah.
What are my choices?
And then once you look at that,you say, Well, I'm just gonna
let this guy walk away and I'llI'll reorder.
What's the worst thing that canhappen if you let him walk away?
(15:59):
You have to wait an extra fiveminutes for your coffee.
What's the best thing that canhappen if you let him walk away?
You get the satisfaction of himdrinking something that he
didn't order.
Plus, you get a fresh coffee.
Yeah, yeah.
This is good.
This is a good choice.
Yeah.
With the with the screamingcustomer, what is it that you
(16:20):
want?
Number one, you want to be safe,right?
Number two, you also want tostay employed, which means
you're not going to sell him outalcohol to a miner.
So you're going to stick by thestore policy and you're going to
remain as calm as possible.
Now, what's the worst thing thatcan happen if you remain calm
and stick to the policy?
He might get real mad, he mightcome back and destroy some
(16:42):
stuff.
But if you destroy some stuff,he's going to get arrested and
he'll have to pay for it all.
So that's not on you, right?
Yeah.
Best thing that can happen is heleaves the store and he doesn't
try this foolishness again.
So when you process it throughlike that, it's easier to come
to a conclusion of what's thebest course of action to take in
this moment.
(17:03):
But we first have tore-oxygenate our brains so that
we can do that deeper level ofthinking, right?
SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So getting back to theconversation at hand, you know,
and the series itself, like thisis a series devoted to women in
their 40s.
And I think what you yourexperience and um your knowledge
around um anger and raise, rage,you know what I mean?
I think there's a lot of thingsthat come up in your 40s.
(17:34):
I think I don't know if you'vehad a lot of clients in that age
group, but I think like, youknow, mood swings and like
perimenopause and likedepression and and all the
symptoms and like things thatcome up as a woman in this stage
of life.
Like, you know what I mean?
It's a different stage of yourlife.
And so some days you're you'reon it and some days you're not.
(17:55):
And so when you speak to yourclients about this journey or
the stage of life, this nextchapter, what do you help them
tackle?
SPEAKER_03 (18:06):
Great question.
Yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot.
Perimenopause and menopause isno joke.
Um and uh I I have severalclients who are in this in this
phase of their life's journey.
Uh so there are things thattypically what I would encourage
(18:28):
people to do is first andforemost, let's rule out all the
things.
Because that they're coming tome for psychological symptoms,
right?
I'm depressed, I'm anxious, I'mangry, whatever.
Let's rule out all the organicpossibilities for why you're
feeling this.
So when we're talking aboutorganic things, we're talking
about is it paramo is itperimenopause?
(18:49):
Is there a hormonal imbalance?
Um, is your thyroid out ofwhack?
Right?
Let's look at all of thesedifferent things.
Um, have you ever had a headinjury?
Are is your sleep disordered?
So we look at all of these verybasic things, and whatever we
can can get answers from ourdoctors or through blood work, I
(19:10):
encourage clients to do thatfirst.
If the thyroid comes back,thyroid levels are within, you
know, are within the normalparameters, there's nothing out
of whack with the blood work,everything looks fine.
Then we would look at, okay, sohow old are you?
What are your perimenopausesymptoms?
Right.
Uh, because when doctors doblood work, they're not checking
(19:32):
for hormone levels and balancesand that sort of thing.
They're checking for all theother stuff.
Yeah.
They don't they don't reallycare.
They don't really care aboutperimenopause and menopause that
much.
And that's because they haven'tbeen taught much about it.
They get, I think uh one uhdoctor I saw, she interviewed a
bunch of OBGYN students, andthey said that they had gotten
(19:54):
less than two weeks of educationon perimenopause and menopause
in their entire time in medicalschool.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So they're not learning a lotabout it, so they don't have
much to offer.
So when we want our hormonelevels checked, then we've got
to go specifically ask for that,right?
Which is what I have to do.
(20:15):
Yes.
So I I want to know what are mywhat are my estrogen levels,
what are my progesterone levels,what are my testosterone levels.
I want I need to know all ofthat because if things are out
of whack, then maybe I need somehormone replacement, even in
perimenopause.
And this is something that mostdoctors do not talk about at
all.
And I am not an expert on this.
(20:37):
I'm just sharing what I what Ihave learned because I've had my
own journey.
SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Yeah, I always say, I guess um, yeah, with a
disclaimer here that you know,we're just basing it off of our
own experience.
And like, so if you are feelingthe symptoms of perimenopause
and menopause, just please talkto your doctor.
Because even with me, like I am41 and um I have a pre-existing
(21:03):
condition, which my gynecologistcould sing it's because of that.
But I'm like, why am I goinggetting hot and I'm cold?
And then it's usually on theweek of my period.
So I'm just like, it's it'spretty, um, Julie.
Um, when you think about that.
But yeah, it's like, well, nexttime I go now, it's like, well,
we're gonna have to think abouta workup, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (21:23):
So yeah, because the the challenge is, you know, like
for me, I also had pre-existingconditions.
I number one, I have a blooddisorder.
Number two, I had endometriosis.
Number three, I had ovariancysts and the and fibroids,
which nobody told me about.
I had fibroids for years, nobodymentioned them, even though they
(21:44):
knew they were there.
So there's all of this stuffgoing on.
Yeah.
And uh I struggled and struggledand struggled and struggled
until the point where I startedbegging doctors, like, would
somebody please just take thisplumbing out?
I don't want it anymore.
It's causing me so much hassle.
I don't want it.
I have my kids, I'm happy in mylife, I do not need this thing.
(22:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
And no one would do it.
Oh, wow.
So I guess you're dealing at adifferent time where they
weren't offering now, they'reoffering.
SPEAKER_03 (22:16):
They would not do it for me.
I went to two OBs and they bothrefused.
One offered me an IUD and I waslike, that will not solve my
problem.
That will compound my problem.
The other one said she justrefused to do it.
I found out later on, like yearsdown the road, that neither of
them were were qualified to dothe procedure that I was asking
(22:36):
for, which is why they bothdenied me.
Instead of being honest andsaying I I'm not authorized to
do it, they lied and made upfoolishness.
So, anyway, that was a wholeother thing.
So I I put up with all of mychallenges for another almost 15
years before I finally just Iwas like, I cannot take this
anymore because I'm a therapist.
(22:57):
I have to sit in one place forat least an hour, sometimes an
hour and a half.
And when you're bleeding soheavily that you've got to take
care of things every hour on thehour, or else you're gonna have
an accident.
And the bathroom is on the otherside of the building in an
office complex.
There is no margin for error,right?
(23:18):
I had extra changes of clothesat my work, I had extra shoes, I
had all I had like an entirepharmacy in my office because
there were times when I wouldget up off of a chair and and
then I would be like, Okay,well, thank you for coming.
I'll invoice you later, right?
And then walking out the door,I'm like bathroom, hoping to God
(23:40):
that nothing happens, you know,on the way there.
It was insane.
I couldn't live like thatanymore.
And so I finally went to mydoctor, and I'll never forget
this day.
I went to my doctor and I said,like, I need to see someone.
I can't do this anymore.
And she said, Well, I've I'vefound you a doctor.
I think that you'll be a goodfit, but it's a nine-month wait.
(24:03):
I got in my car and I drove toPort Deluzi in Niagara and I
balled my eyes out, called myhusband, hyperventilating.
He's like, he he must havethought I'd been diagnosed with
cancer or something because Iwas losing my mind.
And he's like, Are you okay?
Are you okay?
Do I need to come?
Like, what are you?
And I was like, No, I'm just soupset.
Like, if I were, if I werepregnant, if I were pregnant,
(24:26):
she would have got me in thereright away, right?
Yeah.
But because I am not a priority,my health is not a priority, I'm
gonna wait for the fullgestation period of a child
before I get to talk to adoctor.
I have to put up with anothernine months of this.
So nine months I waited to seethat.
(24:46):
You waited nine months?
Wow.
I had to.
Oh.
Then she got me.
What did we do first?
We did medication to try andshrink my fibroids.
That did not work.
Then we did thermal ablation totry and stop my periods.
That did not work, which I kindof suspected it wouldn't, but I
was like, let's try it anyway.
So what the thermal ablation didwas it took my 10-day periods
(25:09):
down to seven-day periods.
So shaped three days off, but itdidn't change the heaviness or
anything like that.
So we had to wait two months tomake sure the thermal ablation
wasn't working.
And then she said, Okay, I'llgive you a hysterectomy.
Thank you.
How long is that gonna take?
Another six months.
SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
Diva tonight, glamour for your ears.
This is 40, a femaleperspective.
SPEAKER_03 (25:36):
So it was another 18 months after I saw her the first
time before I actually had myuterus taken out.
SPEAKER_01 (25:42):
We're looking at time here, because you said nine
months, then you after the ninemonths I finally saw her.
Yeah, that's how long it took.
SPEAKER_03 (25:49):
So I guess I can't complain now.
And when I finally got my uterusout, here's what she said to me.
Now, Julie, when you wake up,because I said, take the ovaries
too.
They're growing cystseverywhere, like just take it
all out.
I don't need it.
She said, now when you wake up,you're gonna be in full-blown
menopause.
I was like, okay, that was allshe told me.
What?
That's all?
That's it.
You're gonna be in full blownmenopause.
(26:09):
Okay.
She did not say here are thesymptoms that you're gonna
experience.
She did not say here are the thetreatment options.
She did not suggest hormonereplacement.
She did not tell me that I wouldonly need estrogen because
without my ovaries, I don't needprogesterone anymore.
She didn't tell me any of that.
She just said, We're gonna sendyou home after your surgery
(26:30):
because nobody gets better inthe hospital.
And she sent me home.
And that was it.
And for the first five, I meanthe first three years, girl, I
was on fire.
I was on fire.
Like the guy from from uh oh,what's that?
What's that action hero group?
The the guy is elastic, and thenthe other guy catches on fire,
(26:53):
Chris Evans.
He would just go boop and hiswhole body would catch on fire.
I was like, that's me.
That's me.
I mean, I would literally, Iwould, I would go up to my
husband, I'd pull my shirt open,I'd go, feel this, and he'd put
his hand here and you could likefeel the heat radiating out of
my clothes.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
But I want to know what year was this 2020.
SPEAKER_03 (27:12):
2020 during the pandemic.
Damn.
I had my surgery.
SPEAKER_02 (27:16):
Everything else.
SPEAKER_03 (27:17):
I had my surgery in January.
Oh my god.
I was off until March.
I went back to work, and a weeklater the world shut down.
Yeah.
So it was it was a really like,I mean, I I made it through.
I I made it work, but I didn'tknow what I was doing, right?
And then I found Dr.
Mary Claire Haver on Instagram,and I soaked up every little
(27:41):
piece of knowledge I could getfrom this woman because I was
like, nobody is talking aboutthis except for her.
And she was the one who reallyeducated me on hormone
replacement therapy.
And so, and what I like abouther is that she shares the
research, right?
She's like, this study showsthis, this study shows this,
this study shows this, this iswhat you know.
(28:02):
And so I went to my doctor, andthat was only last year in the
fall.
I went to my doctor and I said,Hey, I would really like to be
on hormone therapy.
She goes, Why?
I'm 54 and things don't work theway that they're supposed to.
So, you know, doctors alwayswant symptoms.
(28:24):
So I'll say this to yourlisteners doctors want symptoms.
They don't care how you feelabout it.
Don't go in there telling them,I, you know, I'm so upset, I'm
so frustrated.
They don't care.
Yeah.
Symptoms.
I got my gynecologist'sattention when I gave her my
symptoms, when I actually didthe math on how many products I
was using every period and howfrequently I had to use them.
(28:47):
And I said, that equates to thisequivalent of blood loss.
Then she went, oh my God, let'sdo something.
She didn't care about the factthat I couldn't get through a
one-hour session.
What she wanted was the number.
So I gave her the data.
So I did the same with my familydoctor.
I was like, this doesn't work,this doesn't work, this hurts.
Right?
(29:08):
I laid it all out.
And then she prescribed itimmediately.
And so I've been using theestrogen gel now for just about
a year.
Game changer.
Yeah.
Um, now I also understand thatsome doctors don't want to even
talk about it.
No, they don't.
But that's changing because theFDA in the US has now lifted the
(29:30):
the cautions around hormonereplacement therapy.
They've acknowledged that theresearch that informed that
decision was fake.
It was bogus.
So that's good.
And I think perhaps now doctorsmight be more willing to have
that conversation.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
Yeah.
I think it's important though,to have this conversation to
what did my friend say to me?
I have a friend who she's in her40s and she's done both
surgeries, and we've been doingthe research together because,
like you, I have.
Fiber, it's too and boy, doesthat pain?
It's very excruciating.
SPEAKER_02 (30:03):
Listen, yeah, it's again no joke.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
Yeah, we're supposed to be talking about anger, but I
you know what it's one of anger.
SPEAKER_03 (30:11):
It links because when you when you feel like
garbage, your hormones are allover the place.
Our hormones re are part of whatregulates our mood.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
And you know, I I hear so manywomen, myself included, that are
like, I just I just don't care.
You know, like the We Do NotCare Club on Instagram is
(30:34):
worldwide.
Why?
Because we're all in that placewhere it's like, I don't have it
in me to care when my my uterusis contracting like I'm giving
birth.
I'm having this intense pain.
Nobody cares that I can barelystand up.
They still expect me to go towork anyways.
People are being rude, and Idon't have the energy for this,
(30:57):
right?
Like we all have that, right?
Where it's just sort of like, Iused to care about these things.
Okay, I'm wearing track pantsand a sweater, and my socks
don't match, and I'm wearingCrocs, and my hair is still in a
bonnet.
I don't care.
You should be grateful I got outof bed today.
You know, like that's wherewe're at, right?
So I think that the rage is realbecause women traditionally
(31:21):
carry much of the emotionallabor.
We do a lot of the invisiblelabor, the planning, the
scheduling, the who's gonna pickJohnny up from soccer, like all
of that is women's work, right?
Plus, we're managing households,plus we're working jobs, plus,
plus, plus, plus.
And then people are like, well,why can't you do this?
(31:41):
And something snaps.
You know, you get to a certainage where you're just like, bro,
you did not just ask me whatabout this, right?
You did not just sit on thecouch with one hand down your
pants and the other one flickingon the remote, asking me when
supper's gonna be ready.
You just know you didn't.
SPEAKER_01 (32:00):
Yeah, yeah.
I think, I think I my moods havedefinitely been on a roller
coaster.
And like, I I guess the onething I guess we we should uh I
should ask you is like when youare feeling the rage or if you
are at work and you're justtoday's not a good day.
Like, what should you say toyour manager or whoever's in
charge?
Like, because sometimes you justneed five minutes, right?
SPEAKER_03 (32:22):
And so Yeah, then you ask for five minutes.
You know, I think we have to getto the point where we don't have
to tell everybody our lifestory, no, no, but to be able to
ask your leadership to create aculture where a timeout is
normalized, right?
Yeah, like can we just can wejust normalize this?
(32:44):
Like if if I'm in the bathroomfor more than two minutes, can
you not ask me why?
Because right, like when whenyou're on your heaviest period
days, you don't want anybodygoing, Oh my god, you've been
there for so long, leave mealone.
unknown (32:59):
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (33:00):
I'm already embarrassed, I already feel
gross.
I don't even want to talk aboutwhat I just had to do.
SPEAKER_02 (33:06):
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (33:06):
Like, please don't comment, just leave it.
Let's just normalize thatsometimes people need additional
time to take care of what'sgoing on with their bodies, and
we should not even be payingattention to it outside of just
being having concern.
Are you okay?
Right?
(33:26):
Are you okay?
Yeah, I'm good.
Are you sure?
Do you need a couple moreminutes?
No, I'm fine.
That should be the theconversation.
Let's normalize that becausewomen should not have to hide
what they're going through.
It's normal, it's natural,right?
And this is what the doctors alltell us, right?
Oh, what you're going through isnormal.
(33:47):
Yeah, I know.
That doesn't mean I have to likeit.
unknown (33:49):
Ready?
SPEAKER_01 (33:50):
But how do I I have to find a way to, you know, to
treat it?
We have to find a solutionbecause you know, Julie 2.0 is
now Julie 1.0, and she's barelyhanging on to a thread like
that.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:05):
Yeah.
So I I think it's important toask the people around you to
show you some grace.
And you know, like if you needto take time for you, take time
for you.
I was very much for a long time.
I have to do this, I have to dothis, I have to, you know, I
made a commitment, I have to seeit through.
I mean, when I was a publicspeaker and I was traveling
(34:28):
around the northeastern UnitedStates and and from Ontario out
to the East Coast and Canada,sometimes I'd have to get in the
car and drive for three hours.
Wow.
Now, when you're on yourheaviest day, driving for three
hours is a problem.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So it's like, and you're in arental car.
(34:51):
Again, no margin for for anykind of error or mistake or
accident.
And if there is an accident,then you better be prepared on
how you're going to take care ofthat before you return that
card.
You know, like all these thingsthat we're constantly thinking
about.
And then you got to show up andyou got to be your best self and
all this kind of thing.
And now I'm more of the mindsetwhere if I don't feel like I can
(35:14):
go to work, I will reach out toall of my clients and I will
say, listen, I can't come to theoffice today.
I need to do this virtually.
And if you don't want to do itvirtually, then we need to
cancel and move it to anotherday.
Because I just can't, you know,if I'm if I'm in bed with a heat
pad on my belly and I'm in mycomfortable clothes, and I know
that once I get off this call, Ican put on Netflix and drink
(35:37):
some hot chicken soup and justfeel sorry for myself while my
uterus you know ties itself innuts.
Yeah.
Then yes, I can do my sessionfrom from virtual.
But if you need to see me inperson, I can't do that today.
I will not be there for you.
Right?
Like I'm honest with my clientsbecause I think the other thing
is too, I need to modelself-care for my clients.
(35:59):
And so if I know that I'm notgoing to be a good therapist
today, then I'm canceling myappointments.
SPEAKER_02 (36:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:05):
And I think there needs to be freedom for us to do
that, to say, look, if I have totake a day without pay, okay.
But again, women should not haveto take a day without pay for
something that is not theirfault and without and outside of
their control, and doctors won'thelp them with it.
That should be pay sick leave,in my opinion.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
Right.
I know.
And I feel like we're we'reslowly getting there.
I mean, like the fact that nowthere's no tax on pads, but the
thing is, even the time off ofwork, like I think Americans
think that we get it.
I had a guest think that, but wedon't.
So you're using your sick days.
So when you have to take timeoff because you're in so much
(36:44):
pain, excruciating pain.
SPEAKER_03 (36:46):
Yeah, realistically, women should get at least 12
sick days per month just for thebad cramp day.
Never mind flues and da da daand your kids getting sick and
all the rest of it.
Like we should probably get, Ithink what's what's the the like
15 sick days.
I don't know if that is likesomething that EI, no, EI is 15
(37:07):
weeks.
I'm sorry.
Oh but yeah, 15 sick days Ithink is appropriate, but most
places only give you eight.
Yeah.
And some give you even less thanthat.
That is, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
Yeah, we are a long way from that, right?
SPEAKER_03 (37:18):
So it's like mine all up, go to work because
you're not you're not gettingaway with this, right?
But it's not like it's not ourfault, you know?
And I think that that probablygenerates a little anger and
resentment as well.
Like, you know, if a guy got avasectomy, how much time would
he get to take off work?
Because all of the men would belike, Oh, oh my god, dude, take
(37:40):
as much time as you need, right?
SPEAKER_01 (37:41):
But yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:43):
Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (37:44):
We have a long way to go.
And I I feel like it's like thelabor law board would have to
get involved with that.
There's a whole bunch with that,but yeah, who knows what the
powers that be will decide onthat.
But with you and your career andhow you've gotten to here and
now, and we're talking about allthe health things um that you
(38:07):
know, as a therapist and a momand you know, an author, you
mentioned uh prior that, youknow, there was a moment where
you had to decide that you'regonna go back to school to start
your career over again.
And so when was that and whendid you have that like wake up
call?
SPEAKER_03 (38:28):
So this would have been it started in 2008 when the
economy crashed.
I was getting zero speakinggigs, and when your business
model depends on you gettingspeaking gigs, that was rough.
So I made the decision at thatpoint that I would go back to
school.
Uh no, I was going to uh go backto work to either full-time or a
(38:52):
contract something, and Icouldn't get a job, and I have a
good resume, and no one washiring.
So then I'm in a situation whereI'm not I'm not getting steady
work, I'm not getting any gigs.
So without gigs, it's hard tosell books because you've got to
be in front of audiences to sellbooks.
So what am I gonna do?
(39:14):
So I was talking with acolleague of mine from when I
was in the public speakingworld, uh, working for another
company, and he said, Well,there's an opportunity that I
think would be a good one foryou, since you know, I'll
recommend you and we'll get youin there.
So I went to work for theNational Student Leadership
Conference.
Uh, this is a program that runsthrough the summer in the United
(39:36):
States.
It runs in differentcommunities, and I was hired to
work in New York City.
So, okay, I I mean, I it meantnot seeing my kids for a whole
summer, which was kind of adrag, but we needed to generate
some income.
So I took this job.
And while I was there, I just II had a come to Jesus moment, I
(39:57):
guess, where I was just like, II can't get any further in my
career with just the undergrad.
As someone whose focus ispsychology and, you know, like
for the credibility, but alsojust for the doors that having a
higher level degree would openfor me.
Most of the people I was workingwith were like the same age as
(40:18):
my kids, maybe a little bitolder, and some of them already
had their master's degrees andwere working on their PhDs, and
they were all like babies, in myopinion.
And I was like, what am I doingover here?
Right?
Like, and I had always said,Well, you know, my kids are in
school, my daughter's startinguniversity, this is happening,
this is happening.
I need to, whatever.
(40:38):
No, they like at some point youjust have to put the hammer down
and say, I'm gonna do the thing.
So this brings me to 2009.
So I worked in New York City forthe summer of 2009, and when I
came home from that, I said tomy husband, I'm going back to
school.
We're gonna have to figure thisout because I am never ever, not
that my time with NSLC was bad.
(41:00):
It was just like, I I'm neverdoing that again.
Right.
But I'm never, I'm never gonnaallow myself to be in a position
where I have to settle anything.
I want to be in a position whereI always have leverage.
And then I I opened my practicein the end of 2010, early 2011.
(41:24):
And that was a game changer,right?
Like now I have autonomy.
And if I want to work morehours, right now I work three
and a half days in my practice.
I'm not working in the practicetoday, which means I can have a
conversation with you, I can,you know, I can catch up on
other things, I can work in myother business.
If I want to take time off totravel, I can.
If I want to take an extendedafternoon to go on a hike with
(41:46):
my husband, I can.
And I can set my own hours, Ican set my own rates, right?
Within reason, they have to bewith you know within the ethical
standard, but I can set my ownrates.
I can decide how, when, where,and with whom I want to work.
And that is the ultimateblessing, in my opinion.
Yeah.
Because if I gotta work, it'd benice to work on my own terms.
SPEAKER_01 (42:10):
Definitely.
And I guess that's what you meanwhen you say autonomy, being
able to work at your ownschedule and not have to worry
that, oh my gosh, I have to beat work for you know, one
o'clock and I have to do this,this, and this, right?
And so that takes away fromthat.
So having the autonomy isamazing.
What was your childhood like?
(42:31):
Which part?
Were your parents likeentrepreneurs or creative
people?
And did they influence the workyou do now?
SPEAKER_03 (42:39):
I would say, I would say yes to all of that.
My mom came from a long line ofacademics.
My mom was a librarian.
She was a career librarian.
Wow.
Yeah, she worked in the NationalArchives, worked in that
beautiful library on ParliamentHill.
Yeah, she was a career academic.
My dad was an entrepreneurthrough and through.
(43:02):
So on the one side of thefamily, we have doctors,
lawyers, judges, uh, engineers,professors, you know,
librarians, and then on my dad'sside, we have people who are all
about business.
And so I got a good balance ofboth of those things.
Now, my mom was also veryentrepreneurial, and she ended
up jumping into business with mydad in her latter years.
(43:24):
And they managed to find thesweet spot in their business,
traveled all over the world,went to all these different
places.
They, you know, they really madeit work for them.
So yeah, I think that that wasthe education I got in that
regard, in terms of seeing boththe success and the struggle was
helpful.
I will also say, though, thatthere were some things that my
(43:46):
parents inadvertently taught methat have not served me well.
And one of the biggest things Ican say is how my mom always
used to say, you're gonna haveto work twice as hard and be
twice as good because you'reblack and a woman.
I reject that now.
I just reject that.
I am who I am.
If I'm a black woman and youdon't like that, you don't have
to work with me.
Pisa.
(44:06):
Yeah.
Right.
Again, I think that's part ofthe we do not care phase that
I'm in.
But it's like, if I tell myclients, look, go on my website
and see what I look like beforeyou book an appointment with me.
Because if you see my pictureand you go, Oh, I don't want to
work with her, that's fine.
Go with God.
I will help you find anothertherapist.
But what I don't want is I don'twant people coming into my space
(44:28):
because now I have autonomy.
Right?
I do not want you coming in myspace and trying to tell me how
to run my business or how to domy job.
SPEAKER_02 (44:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:39):
No.
So if you're uncomfortable withthe way I do things, I tell all
my clients up front, this is howI work, this is what I'm like,
these are my weaknesses, theseare my strengths.
If you don't feel comfortablewith that, at any time you can
tell me, and I will happily helpyou find another therapist.
And I won't be offended becausewhat I want is for you to get
(44:59):
well.
What I want is for you to beable to live your best life and
have really good mental health.
And if I'm not the person whocan help you do that, I'll help
you find someone else.
Please don't come in here tryingto convince me that I should
believe your ideas when yourideas are ideas that harm people
like me.
I'm not going to embrace that.
Please don't come in here andinsult my family or insult my
(45:22):
children, which has happenedfrom clients.
I'm just not accepting that,right?
So yeah, I think it's I thinkthat whole idea of you've got to
work twice as hard, it set me upfor this thing where I was
always working to try and pleaseother people, to impress them,
to get their approval.
Now we do not care.
SPEAKER_01 (45:44):
You are a force to be reckoned with.
So thank you, thank you forbeing on the show.
It's been quite the experience.
So thank you again.
I'm Carlene, and this is DivaTonight with Julie Christensen.
Check out the app, it's AngerSolutions.
And yeah, I'll see you on theflip side, I guess.
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you so much.
(46:04):
You're welcome.
SPEAKER_00 (46:05):
Diva Tonight with Carleen will be back.
Send us a message on Instagramat Diva underscore tonight.
Hi, I'm Carlene, and this is Diva.
Tonight, I'm thrilled to havewith me Julie Christensen, a
renowned psychotherapist,author, and speaker with nearly
three decades of experience incommunication and personal
development.
And she is the author of Rise ofRage, and she's an expert when
(00:24):
it comes to anger management.
And so hi, Julie.
Hello.
SPEAKER_03 (00:31):
How are you?
I'm great.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
SPEAKER_01 (00:35):
Oh, thanks for being here.
I wanted to bring up somethingthat happened to me yesterday.
And hopefully you can relate tothis one because that's your
focus.
So yesterday I went toMcDonald's.
I wanted a coffee.
And so I'm like, okay, I needlike a little pick-me up because
the weather is like so gloomy.
So I got myself a medium doubledouble.
(00:56):
Then they gave me my receipt,right?
Which is the number they callout.
They call out my number.
And this guy goes up and hetakes my coffee.
And I'm away.
Yes.
So I'm like, that's my order.
And he's like, no, no, no, no,no.
He's like, I ordered a coffee.
And I'm like, my number's 269.
And then I go tell the ladies,and then they're like, oh, you
(01:18):
guys have the same order.
I'm like, no, we didn't.
He he took my medium doubledouble, and his coffee was a
dark black.
And so he was adamant that thatwas that he could take my order.
And so they had to remake mycoffee.
Now I could have snapped, whichis probably what I wanted to do.
Because I'm like, I like, Imean, it's not their fault.
(01:39):
It's his fault for beingignorant, right?
And so I let him walk off.
And then I'm like, can you guysjust make my coffee again,
please?
You know what I mean?
And I just handled it like in acivil way.
I could have been made a sceneabout it, which is what,
depending on the mood I'm in,right?
We're all likely to do that.
But I'm like, you know what?
It's not their fault.
(02:00):
I just wanted my coffee.
So yeah, they made me and theymade my coffee with my order,
but it just makes me think aboutyour situation that you had when
you went to McDonald's.
SPEAKER_03 (02:14):
Yeah, this was this was many years ago.
I wanted a quarter pounder withcheese.
And so I I went through thedrive-thru and I ordered my
quarter pounder of cheese, andthey handed me my bag, and the
bag felt real light, you know.
I was like, this feels weird.
So I I pulled into a parkingspot.
I opened up my my sandwich, andthere was no meat in there.
(02:37):
There was everything else butthe burger.
And so I was like, oh, okay.
I went back around and I Iparked my car, went into the
restaurant, and I walked up tothe counter.
And I honestly I thought it wasfunny.
I really did, because I I thinkas I told you the first time I
shared this story with you, Ididn't need to eat the
(02:58):
hamburger.
I'm gluten intolerant and I'mlactose intolerant.
I should not be eating bread andcheese, but here I am ordering
this quarter pounder.
They give me everything exceptfor the part that I'm allowed to
eat.
You know, like the whole thingwas just kind of comical.
So when I went in, I walked upto the counter and I said, I
pulled out the the container andI said, I don't know if you're
gonna get this reference or not,but where's the beef?
(03:19):
And she looked and she just shewent into panic mode.
She was like, Oh my gosh, Ican't believe it, you know, and
she ran off and and they were soapologetic, and and they were
like, What can we do for you?
And I was like, just give me anew hamburger.
And they're like, Do you want anew i do you want an ice cream?
Do you want something else?
I was like, No, this is alreadymore calories than I should be
eating today's, but just youknow, give me the thing because
I'm hungry.
(03:39):
Uh so they made it for me, andand the girl at the counter
expressed gratitude to me.
She was like, I'm so thankfulthat you handled it this way,
because a lot of people wouldlose their minds over a mistake
like that.
And I was like, it's just apiece, like it's just a
hamburger.
It's not, you know, like theworld isn't ending because I
didn't get meat in my bun.
(04:00):
It's fine.
But that that shows to me howeasily people can escalate.
And I think what's interestingabout your story is that even
though you had the proof, right?
You had the proof, you had thereceipt, show him that this is
not what you ordered, thisperson decided he was he was
happier being right, right?
(04:20):
It was better for him to beright than for him to be happy.
Because if he ordered a darkblack, he guarantee once he got
in the car and drank that doubledouble and realized it was not
his order, now he's gonna haveto be miserable because he's not
coming back into the restaurantto say you were right and I was
wrong, because his pride is moreimportant.
Right, right.
So this person not onlysacrificed his his enjoyment of
(04:42):
his morning coffee, he he madelife more difficult for you, and
he didn't end up getting what hewanted.
So it's like just take a minute,just take a minute, take a step
back and go, okay, well, let'slet's take a look here.
Oh, you know what?
You're absolutely right.
This isn't my coffee.
I apologize.
Here you go.
Let me take mine, have a greatday, and off we go.
(05:04):
Like it doesn't even thatdoesn't even require anger
management or anger resolutionskills.
That just requires a modicum ofrespect for other people, you
know.
If if you respect other people,then you would at least hear
them out and see whether or notyou did make a mistake.
When you're not willing to dothat, that's when things go a
little off the rails.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
Yeah.
I think for me, it was more orless how I handled it because
I'm just like, I was getting alittle annoyed because I'm
trying to explain to him thatthat's not his order, and I'm
showing him my order ticket.
I didn't show him my receipt,but like he was in a rush, and
it was like, he's just like sohe's like, this is he's like, I
(05:47):
ordered a coffee, that's mycoffee, and then he just walked
away.
And I was just like, so then thestaff have to help me now
because it's like, well, whichis really yeah, how it should
be, right?
SPEAKER_03 (05:58):
Because you did the right thing, you didn't cause a
scene.
I've been in Starbucks when ascene has been caused, it's not
pretty, like it totally wrecksthe vibes.
You know, your laptop and you'rechilling and you're having your
night ten dollar mocha latte,whatever you're drinking, and
then these two two fools startfighting over who should be in
(06:19):
line and why don't you hurry upand order your coffee because
you've already butt it.
Like, boys, take it outside.
You know, like we don't needthis.
So, like, you chose the rightpath by saying, you know what,
it's just a coffee.
And at the end of the day, thisis the key thing I wanted to
point point out is that youdecided at the end of the day
what was most important to youwas getting your coffee.
(06:41):
And so you knew you weren'tgoing to get the coffee by
trying to fight him for it.
So let him go and then turn tothe people who can actually help
you solve the problem and askthem to make you your coffee for
your order and then be on yourway, right?
Like you handled it correctly.
What happens is people losesight of what they actually
want, what their end objectiveis.
Oh, right, right.
(07:02):
And so for him, his primaryobjective in that moment was to
be right.
And so all he cared about wastaking what was his and carrying
on with his day, notunderstanding that in doing so,
he wasn't actually getting whathe wanted.
And now, like I said, he's tooembarrassed to go back.
So he has to fuck it up anddrink the double double, you
(07:22):
know?
Whereas you were like, you knowwhat, I'm just gonna stay calm
and ask people if they canremake it for me, and I'm gonna
walk away with what I wanted inthe first place.
SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
It's true, it's true.
I think I've had like I thinkover the years I've learned
what's worth getting angry overand what not.
But I think I don't alwaysprocess it too, especially when
I'm at work.
I think in in the work setting,I I'm not that person.
And I've been told many times,like, Carlene, you are way too
nice because I've had peopleyelling at me, like my work in
(07:54):
retail.
And so that's the name of thegame where people get upset if
they are, you know, asked,because we have to ask for ID
where I work, and as soon asthey're asked, and they they
think like the per the personwho asked for ID is in the
wrong, then it becomes like, oh,you're a racist or you're this,
and then it escalates.
And I've seen it happen whereI'm just sitting there watching
(08:17):
the behavior and I'm like, we'vebeen taught to how to
de-escalate things, but in themoment, some of my colleagues
they don't de-escalate, theyactually make it even worse.
And so then the shift lead hasto come out.
Um, I'm I won't say her name,but like I'll say person A, um,
she was just getting so angry atthe customer who was telling her
(08:39):
off, and then she just got soangry.
I've never seen her like that,but I think this job has gotten
to her in some instances whereshe's not gonna be quiet
anymore.
And so the shift lead comes outand they're like, okay, person
A, just go to the office, andthen they have to deal with the
customer who is so high strung,so angry, and like they leave
(09:00):
angry, you know, and it's reallylike you said, it's it's
sometimes it's not worth it.
I and sometimes I wish I wouldreact to what they're saying to
me, but I can give you anotheran example.
So when I worked at downtownBrampton, I had this grandfather
come in with his kids, and theysaid, I said, I can't serve you,
like you are underage and likeyou can't buy for them.
(09:22):
And then he got so mad, he waslike, You fucking bitch, and did
it.
I was like, I'm doing my job.
You're buying alcohol forminors, and they don't even have
ID.
Like, you know what I mean?
And that's when people getupset, or you know, and there's
no way to de-escalate it at thatpoint.
Like, I mean, all I did was Iwas just quiet.
And then I think either mymanager came out to talk to that
(09:46):
person, but then again, mycoworker is like, Carle, I can't
believe you didn't say anything.
I'm like, what am I supposed todo?
Yeah, what's the I mean, in myeyes, what's the me swearing at
him back or like responding tohis ignorance, it it really is
not gonna do, it's not gonnachange anything because he's
very ignorant, right?
SPEAKER_03 (10:04):
So yeah, and and you're you're right, because
number one, you're doing a job,so you're representing your
employer, and you need torepresent your employer in a way
that maintains professionalism.
Number two, when the otherperson is in the wrong and
they're the one making all thefuss, let them have at it.
Really, because anything yousay, when someone's already
(10:28):
escalating, anything you say isgoing to escalate them further.
Because anger has this uniquequality that when your amygdala
gets engaged, it shuts off allyour higher order reasoning.
And so you're not hearing aswell.
Oh, you're certainly not makingsense of what people are saying
to you.
Yeah.
(10:48):
Because your amygdala is runningthe show and the amygdala wants
satisfaction.
That's all it wants.
It doesn't, it doesn't wantcommon sense, right?
So you trying to say, sir,please calm down.
What do you mean?
I'm already come, right?
Like nothing you say is going tobring them down.
All you can do is step backwithin reason, right?
(11:10):
If they're a danger tothemselves or to anybody else,
then you gotta you've gotta dowhat's necessary, you know,
whatever your your guidelinesare.
But otherwise, let it out.
Go for it.
It's like when a two-year-old ishaving a tantrum.
Okay, get it out of your system.
When you're done, we'll talk.
But for right now, I'm justgonna sit here and I'm gonna
stare at you like you're analien.
(11:32):
Yeah.
Because you're not acting humanright now.
So go ahead, do what you gottado.
When you're done, we willreiterate the policy and give
you a choice as to whether ornot you would like to leave or
whether you would like someoneto help you leave.
SPEAKER_01 (11:47):
Yeah.
Those are your options.
Yeah, yeah.
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (11:51):
Like that's it.
Uh otherwise, what happens thenis anger escalates.
When he calms down, if he if Imean he's a grandfather, when he
calms down, he should be able toreason that what he was doing
was actually illegal and youweren't targeting him in any way
by telling him, no, you weredoing your job.
(12:14):
And maybe common sense wouldsay, next time you go to buy
booze for your minorgrandchildren, maybe you don't
bring them with you, you idiot.
Go buy your go buy your booze,and then if you want to share it
with them, share it with them,but don't go dragging them into
the into the store.
SPEAKER_02 (12:30):
Yeah, I know, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (12:32):
Because you pretty much know you're gonna get
turned down at that point,right?
So he will figure that outeventually, but he won't be able
to figure it out in the momentbecause his brain isn't capable
of doing that kind of higherorder reasoning because it's
engulfed in that fight or flightstate of mind.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Yeah.
So fight or flight, let's let'stalk about that.
I I don't know if peopleunderstand what that is, but
fight or flight, like whenyou're in a difficult situation
and it's fight or flight.
So you're reacting withoutnecessarily thinking about what
yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
Yeah.
So what happens whenever we aretriggered by any kind of a
stimulus that is scary, it's itmakes you angry, it feels like a
violation of some sort, any kindof a negative stimulus.
The brain immediately goes intothis fight or flight mode.
And it's actually not just fightor flight.
(13:28):
We can go into fight mode, whichis where we're like, you know,
some people are just geared forthat.
Like I am, I am gonna fight you,I'm gonna everything you say to
me, I'm coming back withsomething else.
Like I will chirp for chirp,right?
And then you've got the flight,which is where people might be
hardwired to retreat.
And so I'm just gonna get awayfrom the situation as as quickly
(13:51):
as I can.
Uh, and then we have fawn, andfawning is where we just give
in.
And I think that's perhaps wherethis grandfather was hoping that
if he got aggressive enough thatyou would just say, Oh, you know
what, sir, it's fine.
I'm so sorry, I'll just give youwhat you want.
Uh, but not everybody fawns, andnot everybody fawns all the
(14:12):
time, right?
And then there is freeze.
Some people just freeze up andthey're not able to do anything
at all.
That's why, you know, when wewatch these movies like
Godzilla, yeah, I'm always I'mI'm always just or Jurassic
Park, you know, we watch thesemovies and people see this this
ginormous T-Rex coming for them,and they just stand there and
(14:33):
they're rooted to the spot, andeverybody in the theater is
going, Run, why aren't yourunning?
Right?
Like the and they're just frozenbecause that is an aspect of
this fight, flight, fawn, freezeresponse.
So, yeah, when that happens,it's very difficult to come up
with an alternate response thanthe one your body sort of
(14:54):
automatically chooses, because,like I said, higher order
thinking is kind of shut off.
So the way that we re-engagethat is number one, by taking as
many deep breaths as we'recapable, because then it pushes
oxygen back up into our frontallobe so that we can do better at
decision making.
And then the other thing we needto do is once we start pushing
(15:15):
oxygen into the frontal lobesand they re-engage is to start
asking ourselves some keyquestions really quick, right?
So that we can make someinformed decisions.
So those questions includewhat's happening, what does this
mean?
How do I feel about it?
What should I do?
What's my what's my desiredoutcome?
Right.
So in your case with McDonald's,your desired outcome was I want
(15:39):
my coffee, right?
I want my medium double double.
That is what I want.
So knowing that that's what youwant, then you say, okay, what's
the best thing I can do to getthat outcome?
Yeah.
What are my choices?
And then once you look at that,you say, Well, I'm just gonna
let this guy walk away and I'llI'll reorder.
What's the worst thing that canhappen if you let him walk away?
(15:59):
You have to wait an extra fiveminutes for your coffee.
What's the best thing that canhappen if you let him walk away?
You get the satisfaction of himdrinking something that he
didn't order.
Plus, you get a fresh coffee.
Yeah, yeah.
This is good.
This is a good choice.
Yeah.
With the with the screamingcustomer, what is it that you
(16:20):
want?
Number one, you want to be safe,right?
Number two, you also want tostay employed, which means
you're not going to sell him outalcohol to a miner.
So you're going to stick by thestore policy and you're going to
remain as calm as possible.
Now, what's the worst thing thatcan happen if you remain calm
and stick to the policy?
He might get real mad, he mightcome back and destroy some
(16:42):
stuff.
But if you destroy some stuff,he's going to get arrested and
he'll have to pay for it all.
So that's not on you, right?
Yeah.
Best thing that can happen is heleaves the store and he doesn't
try this foolishness again.
So when you process it throughlike that, it's easier to come
to a conclusion of what's thebest course of action to take in
this moment.
(17:03):
But we first have tore-oxygenate our brains so that
we can do that deeper level ofthinking, right?
SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So getting back to theconversation at hand, you know,
and the series itself, like thisis a series devoted to women in
their 40s.
And I think what you yourexperience and um your knowledge
around um anger and raise, rage,you know what I mean?
I think there's a lot of thingsthat come up in your 40s.
(17:34):
I think I don't know if you'vehad a lot of clients in that age
group, but I think like, youknow, mood swings and like
perimenopause and likedepression and and all the
symptoms and like things thatcome up as a woman in this stage
of life.
Like, you know what I mean?
It's a different stage of yourlife.
And so some days you're you'reon it and some days you're not.
(17:55):
And so when you speak to yourclients about this journey or
the stage of life, this nextchapter, what do you help them
tackle?
SPEAKER_03 (18:06):
Great question.
Yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot.
Perimenopause and menopause isno joke.
Um and uh I I have severalclients who are in this in this
phase of their life's journey.
Uh so there are things thattypically what I would encourage
(18:28):
people to do is first andforemost, let's rule out all the
things.
Because that they're coming tome for psychological symptoms,
right?
I'm depressed, I'm anxious, I'mangry, whatever.
Let's rule out all the organicpossibilities for why you're
feeling this.
So when we're talking aboutorganic things, we're talking
about is it paramo is itperimenopause?
(18:49):
Is there a hormonal imbalance?
Um, is your thyroid out ofwhack?
Right?
Let's look at all of thesedifferent things.
Um, have you ever had a headinjury?
Are is your sleep disordered?
So we look at all of these verybasic things, and whatever we
can can get answers from ourdoctors or through blood work, I
(19:10):
encourage clients to do thatfirst.
If the thyroid comes back,thyroid levels are within, you
know, are within the normalparameters, there's nothing out
of whack with the blood work,everything looks fine.
Then we would look at, okay, sohow old are you?
What are your perimenopausesymptoms?
Right.
Uh, because when doctors doblood work, they're not checking
(19:32):
for hormone levels and balancesand that sort of thing.
They're checking for all theother stuff.
Yeah.
They don't they don't reallycare.
They don't really care aboutperimenopause and menopause that
much.
And that's because they haven'tbeen taught much about it.
They get, I think uh one uhdoctor I saw, she interviewed a
bunch of OBGYN students, andthey said that they had gotten
(19:54):
less than two weeks of educationon perimenopause and menopause
in their entire time in medicalschool.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So they're not learning a lotabout it, so they don't have
much to offer.
So when we want our hormonelevels checked, then we've got
to go specifically ask for that,right?
Which is what I have to do.
(20:15):
Yes.
So I I want to know what are mywhat are my estrogen levels,
what are my progesterone levels,what are my testosterone levels.
I want I need to know all ofthat because if things are out
of whack, then maybe I need somehormone replacement, even in
perimenopause.
And this is something that mostdoctors do not talk about at
all.
And I am not an expert on this.
(20:37):
I'm just sharing what I what Ihave learned because I've had my
own journey.
SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Yeah, I always say, I guess um, yeah, with a
disclaimer here that you know,we're just basing it off of our
own experience.
And like, so if you are feelingthe symptoms of perimenopause
and menopause, just please talkto your doctor.
Because even with me, like I am41 and um I have a pre-existing
(21:03):
condition, which my gynecologistcould sing it's because of that.
But I'm like, why am I goinggetting hot and I'm cold?
And then it's usually on theweek of my period.
So I'm just like, it's it'spretty, um, Julie.
Um, when you think about that.
But yeah, it's like, well, nexttime I go now, it's like, well,
we're gonna have to think abouta workup, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (21:23):
So yeah, because the the challenge is, you know, like
for me, I also had pre-existingconditions.
I number one, I have a blooddisorder.
Number two, I had endometriosis.
Number three, I had ovariancysts and the and fibroids,
which nobody told me about.
I had fibroids for years, nobodymentioned them, even though they
(21:44):
knew they were there.
So there's all of this stuffgoing on.
Yeah.
And uh I struggled and struggledand struggled and struggled
until the point where I startedbegging doctors, like, would
somebody please just take thisplumbing out?
I don't want it anymore.
It's causing me so much hassle.
I don't want it.
I have my kids, I'm happy in mylife, I do not need this thing.
(22:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
And no one would do it.
Oh, wow.
So I guess you're dealing at adifferent time where they
weren't offering now, they'reoffering.
SPEAKER_03 (22:16):
They would not do it for me.
I went to two OBs and they bothrefused.
One offered me an IUD and I waslike, that will not solve my
problem.
That will compound my problem.
The other one said she justrefused to do it.
I found out later on, like yearsdown the road, that neither of
them were were qualified to dothe procedure that I was asking
(22:36):
for, which is why they bothdenied me.
Instead of being honest andsaying I I'm not authorized to
do it, they lied and made upfoolishness.
So, anyway, that was a wholeother thing.
So I I put up with all of mychallenges for another almost 15
years before I finally just Iwas like, I cannot take this
anymore because I'm a therapist.
(22:57):
I have to sit in one place forat least an hour, sometimes an
hour and a half.
And when you're bleeding soheavily that you've got to take
care of things every hour on thehour, or else you're gonna have
an accident.
And the bathroom is on the otherside of the building in an
office complex.
There is no margin for error,right?
(23:18):
I had extra changes of clothesat my work, I had extra shoes, I
had all I had like an entirepharmacy in my office because
there were times when I wouldget up off of a chair and and
then I would be like, Okay,well, thank you for coming.
I'll invoice you later, right?
And then walking out the door,I'm like bathroom, hoping to God
(23:40):
that nothing happens, you know,on the way there.
It was insane.
I couldn't live like thatanymore.
And so I finally went to mydoctor, and I'll never forget
this day.
I went to my doctor and I said,like, I need to see someone.
I can't do this anymore.
And she said, Well, I've I'vefound you a doctor.
I think that you'll be a goodfit, but it's a nine-month wait.
(24:03):
I got in my car and I drove toPort Deluzi in Niagara and I
balled my eyes out, called myhusband, hyperventilating.
He's like, he he must havethought I'd been diagnosed with
cancer or something because Iwas losing my mind.
And he's like, Are you okay?
Are you okay?
Do I need to come?
Like, what are you?
And I was like, No, I'm just soupset.
Like, if I were, if I werepregnant, if I were pregnant,
(24:26):
she would have got me in thereright away, right?
Yeah.
But because I am not a priority,my health is not a priority, I'm
gonna wait for the fullgestation period of a child
before I get to talk to adoctor.
I have to put up with anothernine months of this.
So nine months I waited to seethat.
(24:46):
You waited nine months?
Wow.
I had to.
Oh.
Then she got me.
What did we do first?
We did medication to try andshrink my fibroids.
That did not work.
Then we did thermal ablation totry and stop my periods.
That did not work, which I kindof suspected it wouldn't, but I
was like, let's try it anyway.
So what the thermal ablation didwas it took my 10-day periods
(25:09):
down to seven-day periods.
So shaped three days off, but itdidn't change the heaviness or
anything like that.
So we had to wait two months tomake sure the thermal ablation
wasn't working.
And then she said, Okay, I'llgive you a hysterectomy.
Thank you.
How long is that gonna take?
Another six months.
SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
Diva tonight, glamour for your ears.
This is 40, a femaleperspective.
SPEAKER_03 (25:36):
So it was another 18 months after I saw her the first
time before I actually had myuterus taken out.
SPEAKER_01 (25:42):
We're looking at time here, because you said nine
months, then you after the ninemonths I finally saw her.
Yeah, that's how long it took.
SPEAKER_03 (25:49):
So I guess I can't complain now.
And when I finally got my uterusout, here's what she said to me.
Now, Julie, when you wake up,because I said, take the ovaries
too.
They're growing cystseverywhere, like just take it
all out.
I don't need it.
She said, now when you wake up,you're gonna be in full-blown
menopause.
I was like, okay, that was allshe told me.
What?
That's all?
That's it.
You're gonna be in full blownmenopause.
(26:09):
Okay.
She did not say here are thesymptoms that you're gonna
experience.
She did not say here are the thetreatment options.
She did not suggest hormonereplacement.
She did not tell me that I wouldonly need estrogen because
without my ovaries, I don't needprogesterone anymore.
She didn't tell me any of that.
She just said, We're gonna sendyou home after your surgery
(26:30):
because nobody gets better inthe hospital.
And she sent me home.
And that was it.
And for the first five, I meanthe first three years, girl, I
was on fire.
I was on fire.
Like the guy from from uh oh,what's that?
What's that action hero group?
The the guy is elastic, and thenthe other guy catches on fire,
(26:53):
Chris Evans.
He would just go boop and hiswhole body would catch on fire.
I was like, that's me.
That's me.
I mean, I would literally, Iwould, I would go up to my
husband, I'd pull my shirt open,I'd go, feel this, and he'd put
his hand here and you could likefeel the heat radiating out of
my clothes.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
But I want to know what year was this 2020.
SPEAKER_03 (27:12):
2020 during the pandemic.
Damn.
I had my surgery.
SPEAKER_02 (27:16):
Everything else.
SPEAKER_03 (27:17):
I had my surgery in January.
Oh my god.
I was off until March.
I went back to work, and a weeklater the world shut down.
Yeah.
So it was it was a really like,I mean, I I made it through.
I I made it work, but I didn'tknow what I was doing, right?
And then I found Dr.
Mary Claire Haver on Instagram,and I soaked up every little
(27:41):
piece of knowledge I could getfrom this woman because I was
like, nobody is talking aboutthis except for her.
And she was the one who reallyeducated me on hormone
replacement therapy.
And so, and what I like abouther is that she shares the
research, right?
She's like, this study showsthis, this study shows this,
this study shows this, this iswhat you know.
(28:02):
And so I went to my doctor, andthat was only last year in the
fall.
I went to my doctor and I said,Hey, I would really like to be
on hormone therapy.
She goes, Why?
I'm 54 and things don't work theway that they're supposed to.
So, you know, doctors alwayswant symptoms.
(28:24):
So I'll say this to yourlisteners doctors want symptoms.
They don't care how you feelabout it.
Don't go in there telling them,I, you know, I'm so upset, I'm
so frustrated.
They don't care.
Yeah.
Symptoms.
I got my gynecologist'sattention when I gave her my
symptoms, when I actually didthe math on how many products I
was using every period and howfrequently I had to use them.
(28:47):
And I said, that equates to thisequivalent of blood loss.
Then she went, oh my God, let'sdo something.
She didn't care about the factthat I couldn't get through a
one-hour session.
What she wanted was the number.
So I gave her the data.
So I did the same with my familydoctor.
I was like, this doesn't work,this doesn't work, this hurts.
Right?
(29:08):
I laid it all out.
And then she prescribed itimmediately.
And so I've been using theestrogen gel now for just about
a year.
Game changer.
Yeah.
Um, now I also understand thatsome doctors don't want to even
talk about it.
No, they don't.
But that's changing because theFDA in the US has now lifted the
(29:30):
the cautions around hormonereplacement therapy.
They've acknowledged that theresearch that informed that
decision was fake.
It was bogus.
So that's good.
And I think perhaps now doctorsmight be more willing to have
that conversation.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
Yeah.
I think it's important though,to have this conversation to
what did my friend say to me?
I have a friend who she's in her40s and she's done both
surgeries, and we've been doingthe research together because,
like you, I have.
Fiber, it's too and boy, doesthat pain?
It's very excruciating.
SPEAKER_02 (30:03):
Listen, yeah, it's again no joke.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
Yeah, we're supposed to be talking about anger, but I
you know what it's one of anger.
SPEAKER_03 (30:11):
It links because when you when you feel like
garbage, your hormones are allover the place.
Our hormones re are part of whatregulates our mood.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
And you know, I I hear so manywomen, myself included, that are
like, I just I just don't care.
You know, like the We Do NotCare Club on Instagram is
(30:34):
worldwide.
Why?
Because we're all in that placewhere it's like, I don't have it
in me to care when my my uterusis contracting like I'm giving
birth.
I'm having this intense pain.
Nobody cares that I can barelystand up.
They still expect me to go towork anyways.
People are being rude, and Idon't have the energy for this,
(30:57):
right?
Like we all have that, right?
Where it's just sort of like, Iused to care about these things.
Okay, I'm wearing track pantsand a sweater, and my socks
don't match, and I'm wearingCrocs, and my hair is still in a
bonnet.
I don't care.
You should be grateful I got outof bed today.
You know, like that's wherewe're at, right?
So I think that the rage is realbecause women traditionally
(31:21):
carry much of the emotionallabor.
We do a lot of the invisiblelabor, the planning, the
scheduling, the who's gonna pickJohnny up from soccer, like all
of that is women's work, right?
Plus, we're managing households,plus we're working jobs, plus,
plus, plus, plus.
And then people are like, well,why can't you do this?
(31:41):
And something snaps.
You know, you get to a certainage where you're just like, bro,
you did not just ask me whatabout this, right?
You did not just sit on thecouch with one hand down your
pants and the other one flickingon the remote, asking me when
supper's gonna be ready.
You just know you didn't.
SPEAKER_01 (32:00):
Yeah, yeah.
I think, I think I my moods havedefinitely been on a roller
coaster.
And like, I I guess the onething I guess we we should uh I
should ask you is like when youare feeling the rage or if you
are at work and you're justtoday's not a good day.
Like, what should you say toyour manager or whoever's in
charge?
Like, because sometimes you justneed five minutes, right?
SPEAKER_03 (32:22):
And so Yeah, then you ask for five minutes.
You know, I think we have to getto the point where we don't have
to tell everybody our lifestory, no, no, but to be able to
ask your leadership to create aculture where a timeout is
normalized, right?
Yeah, like can we just can wejust normalize this?
(32:44):
Like if if I'm in the bathroomfor more than two minutes, can
you not ask me why?
Because right, like when whenyou're on your heaviest period
days, you don't want anybodygoing, Oh my god, you've been
there for so long, leave mealone.
unknown (32:59):
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (33:00):
I'm already embarrassed, I already feel
gross.
I don't even want to talk aboutwhat I just had to do.
SPEAKER_02 (33:06):
Right?
SPEAKER_03 (33:06):
Like, please don't comment, just leave it.
Let's just normalize thatsometimes people need additional
time to take care of what'sgoing on with their bodies, and
we should not even be payingattention to it outside of just
being having concern.
Are you okay?
Right?
(33:26):
Are you okay?
Yeah, I'm good.
Are you sure?
Do you need a couple moreminutes?
No, I'm fine.
That should be the theconversation.
Let's normalize that becausewomen should not have to hide
what they're going through.
It's normal, it's natural,right?
And this is what the doctors alltell us, right?
Oh, what you're going through isnormal.
(33:47):
Yeah, I know.
That doesn't mean I have to likeit.
unknown (33:49):
Ready?
SPEAKER_01 (33:50):
But how do I I have to find a way to, you know, to
treat it?
We have to find a solutionbecause you know, Julie 2.0 is
now Julie 1.0, and she's barelyhanging on to a thread like
that.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:05):
Yeah.
So I I think it's important toask the people around you to
show you some grace.
And you know, like if you needto take time for you, take time
for you.
I was very much for a long time.
I have to do this, I have to dothis, I have to, you know, I
made a commitment, I have to seeit through.
I mean, when I was a publicspeaker and I was traveling
(34:28):
around the northeastern UnitedStates and and from Ontario out
to the East Coast and Canada,sometimes I'd have to get in the
car and drive for three hours.
Wow.
Now, when you're on yourheaviest day, driving for three
hours is a problem.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So it's like, and you're in arental car.
(34:51):
Again, no margin for for anykind of error or mistake or
accident.
And if there is an accident,then you better be prepared on
how you're going to take care ofthat before you return that
card.
You know, like all these thingsthat we're constantly thinking
about.
And then you got to show up andyou got to be your best self and
all this kind of thing.
And now I'm more of the mindsetwhere if I don't feel like I can
(35:14):
go to work, I will reach out toall of my clients and I will
say, listen, I can't come to theoffice today.
I need to do this virtually.
And if you don't want to do itvirtually, then we need to
cancel and move it to anotherday.
Because I just can't, you know,if I'm if I'm in bed with a heat
pad on my belly and I'm in mycomfortable clothes, and I know
that once I get off this call, Ican put on Netflix and drink
(35:37):
some hot chicken soup and justfeel sorry for myself while my
uterus you know ties itself innuts.
Yeah.
Then yes, I can do my sessionfrom from virtual.
But if you need to see me inperson, I can't do that today.
I will not be there for you.
Right?
Like I'm honest with my clientsbecause I think the other thing
is too, I need to modelself-care for my clients.
(35:59):
And so if I know that I'm notgoing to be a good therapist
today, then I'm canceling myappointments.
SPEAKER_02 (36:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:05):
And I think there needs to be freedom for us to do
that, to say, look, if I have totake a day without pay, okay.
But again, women should not haveto take a day without pay for
something that is not theirfault and without and outside of
their control, and doctors won'thelp them with it.
That should be pay sick leave,in my opinion.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
Right.
I know.
And I feel like we're we'reslowly getting there.
I mean, like the fact that nowthere's no tax on pads, but the
thing is, even the time off ofwork, like I think Americans
think that we get it.
I had a guest think that, but wedon't.
So you're using your sick days.
So when you have to take timeoff because you're in so much
(36:44):
pain, excruciating pain.
SPEAKER_03 (36:46):
Yeah, realistically, women should get at least 12
sick days per month just for thebad cramp day.
Never mind flues and da da daand your kids getting sick and
all the rest of it.
Like we should probably get, Ithink what's what's the the like
15 sick days.
I don't know if that is likesomething that EI, no, EI is 15
(37:07):
weeks.
I'm sorry.
Oh but yeah, 15 sick days Ithink is appropriate, but most
places only give you eight.
Yeah.
And some give you even less thanthat.
That is, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
Yeah, we are a long way from that, right?
SPEAKER_03 (37:18):
So it's like mine all up, go to work because
you're not you're not gettingaway with this, right?
But it's not like it's not ourfault, you know?
And I think that that probablygenerates a little anger and
resentment as well.
Like, you know, if a guy got avasectomy, how much time would
he get to take off work?
Because all of the men would belike, Oh, oh my god, dude, take
(37:40):
as much time as you need, right?
SPEAKER_01 (37:41):
But yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:43):
Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (37:44):
We have a long way to go.
And I I feel like it's like thelabor law board would have to
get involved with that.
There's a whole bunch with that,but yeah, who knows what the
powers that be will decide onthat.
But with you and your career andhow you've gotten to here and
now, and we're talking about allthe health things um that you
(38:07):
know, as a therapist and a momand you know, an author, you
mentioned uh prior that, youknow, there was a moment where
you had to decide that you'regonna go back to school to start
your career over again.
And so when was that and whendid you have that like wake up
call?
SPEAKER_03 (38:28):
So this would have been it started in 2008 when the
economy crashed.
I was getting zero speakinggigs, and when your business
model depends on you gettingspeaking gigs, that was rough.
So I made the decision at thatpoint that I would go back to
school.
Uh no, I was going to uh go backto work to either full-time or a
(38:52):
contract something, and Icouldn't get a job, and I have a
good resume, and no one washiring.
So then I'm in a situation whereI'm not I'm not getting steady
work, I'm not getting any gigs.
So without gigs, it's hard tosell books because you've got to
be in front of audiences to sellbooks.
So what am I gonna do?
(39:14):
So I was talking with acolleague of mine from when I
was in the public speakingworld, uh, working for another
company, and he said, Well,there's an opportunity that I
think would be a good one foryou, since you know, I'll
recommend you and we'll get youin there.
So I went to work for theNational Student Leadership
Conference.
Uh, this is a program that runsthrough the summer in the United
(39:36):
States.
It runs in differentcommunities, and I was hired to
work in New York City.
So, okay, I I mean, I it meantnot seeing my kids for a whole
summer, which was kind of adrag, but we needed to generate
some income.
So I took this job.
And while I was there, I just II had a come to Jesus moment, I
(39:57):
guess, where I was just like, II can't get any further in my
career with just the undergrad.
As someone whose focus ispsychology and, you know, like
for the credibility, but alsojust for the doors that having a
higher level degree would openfor me.
Most of the people I was workingwith were like the same age as
(40:18):
my kids, maybe a little bitolder, and some of them already
had their master's degrees andwere working on their PhDs, and
they were all like babies, in myopinion.
And I was like, what am I doingover here?
Right?
Like, and I had always said,Well, you know, my kids are in
school, my daughter's startinguniversity, this is happening,
this is happening.
I need to, whatever.
(40:38):
No, they like at some point youjust have to put the hammer down
and say, I'm gonna do the thing.
So this brings me to 2009.
So I worked in New York City forthe summer of 2009, and when I
came home from that, I said tomy husband, I'm going back to
school.
We're gonna have to figure thisout because I am never ever, not
that my time with NSLC was bad.
(41:00):
It was just like, I I'm neverdoing that again.
Right.
But I'm never, I'm never gonnaallow myself to be in a position
where I have to settle anything.
I want to be in a position whereI always have leverage.
And then I I opened my practicein the end of 2010, early 2011.
(41:24):
And that was a game changer,right?
Like now I have autonomy.
And if I want to work morehours, right now I work three
and a half days in my practice.
I'm not working in the practicetoday, which means I can have a
conversation with you, I can,you know, I can catch up on
other things, I can work in myother business.
If I want to take time off totravel, I can.
If I want to take an extendedafternoon to go on a hike with
(41:46):
my husband, I can.
And I can set my own hours, Ican set my own rates, right?
Within reason, they have to bewith you know within the ethical
standard, but I can set my ownrates.
I can decide how, when, where,and with whom I want to work.
And that is the ultimateblessing, in my opinion.
Yeah.
Because if I gotta work, it'd benice to work on my own terms.
SPEAKER_01 (42:10):
Definitely.
And I guess that's what you meanwhen you say autonomy, being
able to work at your ownschedule and not have to worry
that, oh my gosh, I have to beat work for you know, one
o'clock and I have to do this,this, and this, right?
And so that takes away fromthat.
So having the autonomy isamazing.
What was your childhood like?
(42:31):
Which part?
Were your parents likeentrepreneurs or creative
people?
And did they influence the workyou do now?
SPEAKER_03 (42:39):
I would say, I would say yes to all of that.
My mom came from a long line ofacademics.
My mom was a librarian.
She was a career librarian.
Wow.
Yeah, she worked in the NationalArchives, worked in that
beautiful library on ParliamentHill.
Yeah, she was a career academic.
My dad was an entrepreneurthrough and through.
(43:02):
So on the one side of thefamily, we have doctors,
lawyers, judges, uh, engineers,professors, you know,
librarians, and then on my dad'sside, we have people who are all
about business.
And so I got a good balance ofboth of those things.
Now, my mom was also veryentrepreneurial, and she ended
up jumping into business with mydad in her latter years.
(43:24):
And they managed to find thesweet spot in their business,
traveled all over the world,went to all these different
places.
They, you know, they really madeit work for them.
So yeah, I think that that wasthe education I got in that
regard, in terms of seeing boththe success and the struggle was
helpful.
I will also say, though, thatthere were some things that my
(43:46):
parents inadvertently taught methat have not served me well.
And one of the biggest things Ican say is how my mom always
used to say, you're gonna haveto work twice as hard and be
twice as good because you'reblack and a woman.
I reject that now.
I just reject that.
I am who I am.
If I'm a black woman and youdon't like that, you don't have
to work with me.
Pisa.
(44:06):
Yeah.
Right.
Again, I think that's part ofthe we do not care phase that
I'm in.
But it's like, if I tell myclients, look, go on my website
and see what I look like beforeyou book an appointment with me.
Because if you see my pictureand you go, Oh, I don't want to
work with her, that's fine.
Go with God.
I will help you find anothertherapist.
But what I don't want is I don'twant people coming into my space
(44:28):
because now I have autonomy.
Right?
I do not want you coming in myspace and trying to tell me how
to run my business or how to domy job.
SPEAKER_02 (44:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:39):
No.
So if you're uncomfortable withthe way I do things, I tell all
my clients up front, this is howI work, this is what I'm like,
these are my weaknesses, theseare my strengths.
If you don't feel comfortablewith that, at any time you can
tell me, and I will happily helpyou find another therapist.
And I won't be offended becausewhat I want is for you to get
(44:59):
well.
What I want is for you to beable to live your best life and
have really good mental health.
And if I'm not the person whocan help you do that, I'll help
you find someone else.
Please don't come in here tryingto convince me that I should
believe your ideas when yourideas are ideas that harm people
like me.
I'm not going to embrace that.
Please don't come in here andinsult my family or insult my
(45:22):
children, which has happenedfrom clients.
I'm just not accepting that,right?
So yeah, I think it's I thinkthat whole idea of you've got to
work twice as hard, it set me upfor this thing where I was
always working to try and pleaseother people, to impress them,
to get their approval.
Now we do not care.
SPEAKER_01 (45:44):
You are a force to be reckoned with.
So thank you, thank you forbeing on the show.
It's been quite the experience.
So thank you again.
I'm Carlene, and this is DivaTonight with Julie Christensen.
Check out the app, it's AngerSolutions.
And yeah, I'll see you on theflip side, I guess.
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you so much.
(46:04):
You're welcome.
SPEAKER_00 (46:05):
Diva Tonight with Carleen will be back.
Send us a message on Instagramat Diva underscore tonight.
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