Echo Chambers: How Our Online Communities Shape Us

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Digital echo chambers are reshaping our society by reinforcing radical beliefs and isolating us from contradictory viewpoints, even as we're seemingly more connected than ever before.

• Online communities enable even the most outlandish conspiracy theories to find validation
• Social media has created spaces where extreme views are reinforced rather than challenged
• Decline in in-person socialization among younger generations is concerning educators
• Public health has suffered as online misinformation contributes to vaccine hesitancy
• A surprising puritanism has emerged in some progressive online spaces about art and entertainment
• Technology offers unprecedented convenience but has shortened our attention spans
• Both liberals and conservatives have created their own echo chambers online
• Growing isolation is having real impacts on mental health and critical thinking
• Many people have become less resourceful and resilient due to technology dependence
• Stepping away from screens and returning to activities like reading books can help restore balance

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hi, my name is Carlene and welcome to Diva.
Tonight, the podcast for womenwho are 40 and older and just a
different perspective altogetherand actually tonight we're
going to change things up alittle bit may not necessarily
talk about life at 40, but weare going to talk about online

(00:29):
communities, online chambers,with my colleague, ashley
Newport of InSaga.
Before we start theconversation about echo chambers
is what you were saying I dowant to say I read an article
that you wrote recently.
I was doing my homework and Ithink it's quite interesting

(00:50):
that now they're starting to dooperations with robots.
I just read an article that youwrote where one of the patients
this woman who lives inBrampton she's one of the first
people to have assisted surgerywith a robot.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yeah, so not not one of the first.
Well, kind of sort of yeah, notexactly Right, yeah, so kind of
sort of.
So the technology is relatively.
My understanding is.
I'm not a doctor or a medicalexpert, but I am very fortunate
that I get to talk to quite afew for stories, so I've learned
a lot from them.
But there is a technologycalled well, actually they call

(01:31):
it ROSA.
It stands for Robotic SurgicalAssistant, and so far I think
there's probably a lot of robotassisted procedures, but this is
specifically for like kneereplacements procedures, but
this is, uh, specifically forlike knee replacements.
So I was, uh, we have a good,you know, relationship with
william osler health system, whoruns a few hospitals in the gta
, namely, uh, the one you'd bemost familiar with would be

(01:53):
brampton civic.
Uh, they are brampton civic, sowe write a lot about them for
in saga.
I was chatting back in earlyfebruary with osler and they
said that they were going to becoming up on their 1000th
procedure with Rosa and they'reonly they're one of only three
hospitals in Ontario that offerRosa for knee surgeries.

(02:16):
So, yeah, this woman who saidher legs were in horrific shape,
she said she was literallycrawling like a child before she
had her first knee done inSeptember and then when she had
her second knee done in March,that was the 1000th procedure
with Rosa, so they were kind ofexcited.
So technology has not been inCanada that long only since 2023
, I think.

(02:36):
I think that was at least thefirst surgery at Brampton Civic
was 2023.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Okay, I'm glad that this woman was able to get the
surgery that she needs, becauseit seems like it was life
changing, so now she can dothings that she wasn't able to
do.
Right, so yes, Yep.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
But like her and her husband were telling me that she
was able to walk up the stairsto their home, they're actually
planning a trip to India in thesummer and she was saying that
she'd been in pain since 2009.
That's a long time, forever,forever.
So it took 14 years, 15 yearssorry, 15 years to get that
final knee operated on from youknow which is.

(03:14):
It's honestly insane and likenauseating.
How long ago 2009 was yeah,that is scary.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
I know, I was just thinking about, like I.
I don't remember 2009, but Iremember 2008, when we graduated
from York and I don't think Irealized that we were dealing
with like an economic downturn,in a way where it was so hard to
find work, like Wall Streetcrash so hard to find work, like

(03:47):
when Wall Street crashed.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, we were.
I was kind of I was insulatedfrom that too, because I, you
know, I I actually graduated in2007 from York.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Oh, oh yeah, the year before.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
Oh you, you did it in four years.
I did it in four years, yeah,yeah.
So I did the program four years, worked at my dad's office for
a few months and then decided inthe winter of 2008 that I was
going to go back to school.
So that's when I applied forthe journalism program at
Sheridan, got into that.
So basically, when things weregoing off the rails with the

(04:15):
economy, I was a littleinsulated from it because I was
in school, so not in the jobmarket.
And then I was very fortunatebecause 2010, I did an
internship and then I wasfortunate that after that
internship wrapped up, a fewmonths later, they actually
hired me for a contract job.
So I did that with them forabout a year and a half.
So then after that I was ableto go back to my dad's office.

(04:38):
So I wasn't really pounding thepavement during that time.
So I was fortunate that we arenow in other very harsh economic
times and so far so good.
Knock on wood, knock on wood.
Yeah, I feel like my job isokay for now, of course, because
we're not really impacted bytariffs in media.
Yeah, you worry, of course,about knock on effects, right,

(05:01):
like if you know, know, becauseeverything's uh, it's all a
community, everyone's connected.
So you know media survives on.
You know advertisers, and ifadvertisers are tightening their
belts you never know what youknow the effects will be.
But we've, you know, been veryresilient through the past.
You know the challenges of thepast few years, very resilient
through covid, and we've beenbusy.

(05:23):
Honestly we've been busy,Honestly we've been busy.
There's been lots of news,there's been lots of readership
and engagement.
We've been busy.
We're lucky so far.
But I mentioned my dad'scompany where I had worked off
and on for many, many years.
He's no longer with us but thecompany remains and pretty much
my whole family works there andit is a company that specializes

(05:44):
in, you know, imports, exports,shipping and receiving that
sort of thing.
So tariffs are definitely ahuge concern for them.
So it's been a lot of anxiety,a lot of fear around that.
So that's been honestlyterrible.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah it's actually mind-boggling because, like you
said, your family business isimpacted by these tariffs.
And I mean, obviously I justread the headline and I'm sure
you did, because you're in newsand so you're always watching
what's going on and so even thecompany I work for is directly

(06:21):
impacted because Of course, ofcourse.
Yeah, directly impacted because,yeah, so, like I mean, it's
interesting when I havecustomers coming in asking for
products that they normallydrink without realizing that
it's made in the US.
It may not be produced, likeyou know, they're not produced,
but it may not be like what doyou call it like an American

(06:44):
drink, but because it's producedin the US, we took it off the
shelf.
And it's interesting because,you know, when it's not
available, people are asking forit.
Right, some people realize thatit is and some people don't
know what to say at this point,other than I hope that people

(07:05):
vote at this election because itwill affect, you know, trade
relations in the next few months.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
Like I mean, I don't, I don't know if there's any you
know it's kind of sad about itwith this election coming up is
I don't think there's anythingwe can do.
I don't think there's anythingwe can do as Canada.
I don't think there's anythingwe can do about this.
It's not really something thatwe can.
That's not true.
There are things we can do torespond to it, but I don't think
there's anything we can do toprevent it.

(07:35):
No, we can't.
No, yeah, like we can, we couldsend our and obviously I'm not
in government and I'm not anexpert you know you could send
your finest negotiators, youcould send, you know, the
sharpest people.
You've got to come up withretaliatory measures, which
which we have to beg and pleadand cajole and flatter and do

(07:58):
everything in their power to tryto kind of carve out exemptions
for these tariffs.
But at the time, you know, atthe same time, these tariffs
were initiated by the US and notjust like Donald Trump.
Yeah, trump came out, said Iwant these tariffs, and it seems
like he can kind of steamrollover everyone.
We haven't really seen much, ifany, moves to stop him.

(08:21):
He seems very unstoppable atthis point.
So I think you know you have tovote for the party that you
think is best equipped to handleit, either by diversifying
trade with other countries andby keeping the economy as strong
as possible under thecircumstances.
But I think that when people saythere's going to be pain, you

(08:44):
know you can't transitionovernight.
You can't undo 60 years of yeahlike trade overnight.
Uh, you can't.
Basically, this country has,you know, the us has turned to
us and said I'm going to rollover on you, I'm going to crush
you.
Um, if you don't like it, youcan be our 51st state, uh, which
is not a fair negotiating yeah,it's.
It's basically like we can dothis the easy way or the hard

(09:04):
way.
Uh, it's very.
You can be our 51st state,which is not a fair negotiating
yeah, it's basically like we cando this the easy way or the
hard way.
It's very mobster, like so, andI don't think there's anything
we could have done to prevent it.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
And I don't think there's close bond with the
United States of America becauseof the US dollar and how it's
used all over the world.
In many ways, we could go on along history, a long historical
conversation about it, but whatI do have to say is that I feel

(09:49):
like the only solution wouldhave been doing business with
other countries, but that'ssomething that you do over time
and do that overnight, and wedidn't do that in the first
place yeah, yeah again, thisisn't you know.
Yeah, I mean of expertise, but Iknow and neither is mine, but I

(10:11):
mean, I do read on history andand certain things.
Obviously, this is not my, myexpertise and, like you said,
you're not an expert on iteither, but I do think, based on
your own experience, like withfollowing the news channels and
and just doing your own personalresearch, that you do have,

(10:32):
yeah, opinion on it.
Yeah, I think you know.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Yeah yeah, we, we've put our we're in a bad, we're in
a bind.
We kind of the expression goesuh, putting all your eggs in one
basket, we, because of theconvenience of having them be
long term eternal almost alliesand being literally next door,
we have, you know, a very largeundefended border.
We kind of said you know we'reset, you know we'll trade with

(10:56):
them.
And I think something againdon't quote me on this, even
though I'm saying it on yourpodcast I think like over 50
percent of our exportspotentially go to the US.
So you know, we put ourselvesin a vulnerable position by
relying on one country to be ourmain, biggest, best trading
partner.
So now when they turn aroundand say well, we're going to

(11:17):
make trade excessively difficultby making it 25% more expensive
at a time when we're already ina cost of living crisis, at a
time when our economy is veryshaky because of, you know, we
haven't grown in the past 10years.
We kind of pivoted away fromselling and taking advantage of
our natural resources.
There's been, you know, a lotof shift to like green energy,

(11:40):
which is seems all fine and welland good when you have concerns
about climate change and otherthings.
But we've been kind of caughtflat-footed, and I think that
the thing that's most shockingabout this is that you can have
a really great you mentioned,you know, a long, great
relationship, but it doesn'thave to be you know, a series of
fights with a country that putyou on the outs.

(12:01):
It just has to be.
In this particular case, thecountry elects a lunatic who's
like I don't like you and I'mgoing to punish you and I'm
going to destroy your economy.
And if you don't like it, well,you can become part of our
country.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, I don't understand the whole 51st state
thing.
I don't know where this ideacame about.
I don't see that happening.
We've always been separate.
I don't see Canadians beingokay with the idea of becoming a
51st state.
No, no.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
And one thing, yeah, one thing that I find a little
bit funny reading some Americanmedia about it, where they're
like, oh you know how would ithappen.
They kind of try to take apartthe mechanics of it.
They kind of try to likerationalize and explain you know
the process, and it's like Idon't think you understand that

(12:55):
this is not like acquiring acompany, this isn't like
purchasing a house.
You, we, we've, our continent,really has never known in our
lifetime and in the in ourlifetime, um, and in the
lifetime of our parents and inthe lifetime of our grandparents
, has never known.
You know, really, on the ground, conflict, um, that's not to
say that there's never been waror battles on north american
soil.
Obviously there have, butconflicts have by and large in

(13:18):
the past, you know, 100 years,been abroad, they have not been
here.
So to act like we're somehow anerd or that this would just
somehow be, you know abureaucratic thing, you know
rolling, you know you know goingsaying telling another country
no, you, you belong to us, nowyour land belongs to us, uh,

(13:39):
leads to years, if not decadesupon decades, of violence and
unrest and warfare.
And I think the lightness withwhich sometimes this is treated
in the US like.
I mean, in a sense it meansthat they don't think it's going
to happen and the idea of ithappening is still quite wild.
But it's come up consistentlyand often and constant.

(14:01):
It is a huge threat, a threatthat people should be taking
seriously and that's, you know,something to think about.
The federal election coming upis like who's the best person?
What's the best party?
Who are the best people toshore up our defenses Literally,
Well, I mean I have my opinionon both parties.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
You know, pierre Poglia, opinion on both parties.
You know, pierre Poglia.
Just, I guess they from peoplewho've been researching the
political campaign and whatCanadians are think are
important, you know they say theConservative Party is a good
choice if you're looking atimmigration, but if we're

(14:42):
looking at trade relations anddealing with the united states,
donald trump you know they say,the liberals is probably a
better choice because donaldtrump apparently thinks that you
know it's a little bit, hewould prefer to live deal with
the liberal party versus theconservative.
I mean so he says.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
He says a lot of stuff two years and also, you
know, we talked about healthcare.

(15:33):
Our health care systemcompletely buckled and has not
been able to recover and doesn'tseem like anyone's interested
in helping it recover, which isquite sad, uh, devastating and
terrifying actually.
But you know, we hear aboutlittle know bits and bobs moving
here and there.
Maybe there'll be a newhospital here, maybe some more
beds there, but we don't reallysee a fundamental shift in how
the system is managed, which isunfortunate.
But of course, you know, beyondthat, there was talk right in

(15:57):
the midst of recovering fromCOVID about labor shortages, a
lot of businesses and companiessaying you know they couldn't
get workers, a lot of businessesand companies saying you know
they couldn't get workers.
And at the time, during thethick of things, I was still
writing for a furniture trademagazine called the Home Goods
Home Goods Online or slash theHome Goods Merchandiser.
I've been writing for thistrade magazine for about 12, 13

(16:17):
years, I think.
Yeah, it was a fantastic,fantastic little side gig, loved
it.
And I was writing, you know,during COVID, when I was, you
know, on mat leave andeverything.
And one thing I was hearing alot too from you know people in
the furniture industry was theycouldn't find workers everywhere
.
They couldn't find workers forthe warehouse, they couldn't
find workers for delivery, theycouldn't find you know workers

(16:38):
for the stores, for the retail,and I think that this caused a
lot of panic and there was a lotof pushing and lobbying by you
know companies to get you knowworkers through the door as fast
as possible, and this wasobviously a temporary problem,
right Like COVID was hugelydisruptive and terrible, and it
seems like it opened thefloodgate, though, to really

(17:00):
quick and fast and unsustainableimmigration really quick and
fast and unsustainableimmigration.
And Canada's, you know a countryof immigrants and has, you know
, traditionally prided itself onits immigration system, but it
just we went pretty wild, youknow.
We started taking insignificantly more people than
we could house.
Suddenly, the rental rates werethrough the roof.
As you know many peopleexperience, rental rates were

(17:21):
climbing significantly monthover month.
Housing prices, which had beenclimbing astronomically for the
past 10 years, were likeshooting up even higher Suddenly
.
No one could get jobs, no onecould find houses, and there was
even people don't talk aboutthis as much as they should, but
you might recall, and I thinkit was two summers ago now.
There was a horrific incident,scandal really, where a

(17:42):
significant number of refugees,I want to say from sudan, were
obviously given.
You know, they were welcomed tocanada as as refugees is this
before?

Speaker 2 (17:53):
this is after.
Justin promised to bring morerefugees into the country, right
this?
Was like because it soundsafter his first term, because it
was after the first year, itwas certainly this was during
his.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
I want to say it was during his third.
It was during his term, so thiswas in 20.
I want to say this was 2023.
I'd have to fact check it, butI feel like this was 2023,
possibly 2024.
It was fairly recent and, ofcourse, you know people fleeing
war.
So Canada offers asylum to ahuge number of refugees from
Sudan.
Asylum to, you know, a hugenumber of refugees from Sudan.

(18:27):
They come to Toronto and theyended up sleeping on the street
for the better part of threeweeks.
I want to say there was justnowhere for these people to go.
Nobody knew what to do.
Every system was paralyzed.
That the federal government hadlet them in, but the city did
not have shelter space for them.
Just straight up didn't haveany shelter space for them
because, as you know, we've gotquite the shelters are full.
There's encampments, mentalhealth and poverty crisis, kind

(18:49):
of compounding things, and Ibelieve a church ended up
stepping up to take them in and,who knows, maybe some of these
poor souls are still sleeping inpews.
But it was quite a scandal andand just pretty awful.
So you know, going into thisparticular election, I think
that people were prior to trump.
Uh, they were very ready toturf the liberals because one,

(19:11):
they'd been in power for 10years.
People were tired of them.
Two, they had genuine reason tobe upset.
There was severe mismanagementof the immigration system and
that had kind of exploded.
You know that kind of pushed thehousing crisis further, made
the health crisis worse, ofexploded.
You know that kind of pushedthe housing crisis further, made
the health crisis worse.
It's because you know you haveall these people coming in.
You already don't have a veryrobust healthcare system, so now

(19:31):
you're putting more pressure onit.
More people, inevitably morepeople, need to use it.
So, and then, of course, youknow inflation was high, the
cost of living was astronomicalstill is.
You know you had the governmentsending out rebates for grocery
prices, because every groceryshops costing 200 bucks, and
these are all still problems.
But trump has been a gamechanger because it went from

(19:52):
being an election about youraverage kind of meat you used
the term meat and potatoesearlier about being a meat and
potatoes election, literallyabout meat and potatoes and not
being able to afford them.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mean, according to the
statistics, it's like numberone, canadians are more
concerned with the trade war andthen number two it's the cost
of living and the food prices.
You know, it hasn't changed,it's gotten worse.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
It's, it's, it's bad, it's bad and I think tariffs
could make this worse.
Actually, I was talking tosomeone today.
I'm working on a feature forour newest website called your
city within.
It's more lifestyle focused,but I'm doing a story about the
restaurant landscape, which iskind of, you know, lifestyle-y
in toronto, because I've justnoticed a lot of closures of
restaurants.
I kind of wanted to get to thebottom of it and see if there's

(20:43):
been, you know, an uptick inclosures year over year compared
to openings.
Long story short, yes, therehas been, and I was asking you
know about, you know, the impactof tariffs because, of course,
it affects alcohol, it canaffect ingredients, it can
affect food.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
So, yeah, so the thing with, with with certain
rules when it comes to alcoholthis, this, I know, is that
there's certain alcohol we don'tmake here in Canada because of
the laws and regulations, so wedon't produce bourbon, and so
that's been an American thingthat there, in terms of the
supply that we were provide,that you know, know, lcbo was

(21:25):
providing.
You know what I mean.
So there, yeah, there's there'scertain things.
Unless they're gonna, we'regonna change the laws with that
and then all of a sudden, canadais gonna produce bourbon and
it's not something that canhappen overnight.
There's so many rules andregulations when it comes to
alcohol and, like you said, eventhe restaurant industry that's
reliant on American alcohol.

(21:47):
You know what I mean.
It's like there's certainthings that they produce that's
a lot better in terms of taste.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
So it's the crazy battle, it's just crazy and it
affects every facet of life andI think, too kind of going back
to our, uh, our topic, whichwe've kind, of strayed from,
yeah, I think we're in thesituation we're in and I truly
believe this because of theinternet.
Um, that's not to say that therewere not crazy people before

(22:17):
the internet.
Obviously there were andobviously yes, but I think think
we kind of got to a sweet spotwhere, in the early 2000s, early
2000s, mid 2000s, somethinglike that, I remember reading an
article about how, at thatparticular point in time, the
world was very safe and thatwasn't to say that every country
was safe, but just overall, onaverage, you had more peace than

(22:40):
you had war, had more peacethan you had war.
Okay, yeah, and that's.
We're seeing a really dangerouskind of shift, with people
being very partisan and clingingto things that are not true
because it makes them feel goodand you can go into.
You know, I mentioned onlineecho chambers and they're
everywhere, like you can findthem.
You mentioned facebook groups.
Yes%, facebook is probably thebiggest originator of really

(23:03):
toxic groupthink.
It used to be that if you had aweird conspiracy theory or you
were really fascinated bysomething strange or weird, use
an example If you believed deepdown in your heart that the
agents used to clean drinkingwater were making people crazy,

(23:27):
right, like believed it wascausing brain damage.
If you told your neighbor thatyou thought about this, like if
you cornered somebody at workand started talking about this,
people would be like, oh my god,no, like you would be kind of,
unless you're really nuts, yourbehavior would be neutralized by
people pushing back on you,being like, not wanting to talk
to you, not wanting to engagewith you.
But then you know, there's theinternet and it's been around

(23:48):
for a while.
But with social media you couldjoin Facebook groups where
suddenly you're meeting allthese people who also believe
that clean drinking water causesbrain damage and you're feeding
off each other and feeding offeach other, and feeding off each
other, and then these networkskind of grow.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
I think I've heard of this vaguely about why some
people don't drink tap water.
There is fluoride.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
Yeah, mm.
Hmm, yeah, there is.
There's concerns aboutfluoridation in water.
But even like you know, this isa really touchy subject.
But like vaccines right, likewe've been doing, you know, like
vaccines have been around forhowever many years we start
seeing diseases disappear.
We don't see people gettingpolio anymore, measles is pretty
much eradicated, in Canada atleast, and you know, other

(24:34):
things start disappearing,diseases start disappearing, and
then we kind of get into thiscomfy position where it's out of
sight, out of mind.
So suddenly someone comes toyou and says, oh, you know,
maybe these vaccines are whatare causing us to get cancer in
our 70s or something like that.
And then you know, suddenly nowyou have these you know measles
outbreaks that are happening.
We've had a child in Ontario inthe last year die of measles

(24:58):
and we're undoing the problem.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
This is definitely a controversial topic.
It is a controversial topic.
It is a controversial topic.
But the measles vaccine I dobelieve that I I wouldn't I
would have to check, but I dobelieve there's certain vaccines
we took when we were in schoolI do remember in grade seven and
eight, like hepatitis b, andI'm fine.

(25:21):
I'm actually quite grateful forthat because I did a check and
obviously the antibodies areprotecting me from something.
But it's one of those thingswhere we are not I'm not a
scientist, you're not ascientist but I remember in
science class when they're doingresearch and they have a
hypothesis and in order to cometo the conclusion, like in this

(25:43):
scenario, they do enoughresearch and enough study on
patients obviously not livepeople, but they do it on rats
before they can test on on humanbeings whether or not the
vaccine would work Right.
And so there's usually a like atime in which they are testing

(26:04):
a vaccine Right, whereas becauseof covid there was a rush for
that vaccine.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
But getting back to measles andwhat you were saying, right,
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
So with, like with measles, we're seeing these huge
outbreaks, these massiveoutbreaks, like there's been
over 400 cases, I to say, inontario this year.
Uh, very unusual, highlyunusual.
If you have your shots, you'restill protected, like it's.
It's not like early covid whereyou could go to a mall and be
like, oh my god, I'm gonna getsick.
That's still unlikely to happento you.
But I became a lot moreconcerned about just

(26:37):
communicable disease when I hadmy son, um, because just infants
are so vulnerable, sosusceptible, yeah, so
susceptible, so fragile.
So you start reading it.
If you're like me and you'reparanoid and terrified about
death and dying and disease,which I am you learn about like
just all these things that can,like all these misfortunes that
can, that can befall your family.

(26:58):
So you worry about meningitisand you worry about that.
One was a big one, I was reallyworried about that one.
But you worry about meningitisand you worry about that.
One was a big one, I was reallyworried about that one.
But you worry about, you know,invasive strep and and all this
crazy stuff and you learn justwhen you take your child in, for
you know their regulations,like what they are, what they're
for what they prevent and it'sreally and I just kind of think,

(27:19):
you know, oh, we sit on theshoulders of giants Like we.
Someone else's hard work andresearch and intelligence has
brought us to this point wherewe don't typically lose children
under five anymore toinfectious disease the way we
did throughout history, and it'ssuch a blessing.
And it seems really terrifyingand sad to watch that

(27:40):
potentially slip away, because Ican't imagine something more
terrible than having your childdie of anything, anything,
anything, anything, butespecially something that could
conceivably potentially beprevented.
And you can't preventeverything.
No, you can't.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
And you know you can't prevent the flu even
though you take the flu.
Yeah, so I mean we can take theflu vaccine.
Take the flu, yeah, so I meanwe can take the flu vaccine.
Mind you, I'm not a bigadvocate for taking the flu
vaccine and I took the COVIDvaccine because I felt like my
hand was forced.
But as you are a mom and youare very concerned about your
son and you know taking,obviously there's certain

(28:16):
vaccines that you know should betaken because it is a
preventative in some ways,because you know, like, like
we're having an outbreak andyou're talking about that, and
so I don't understand how we hadan outbreak, unless the vaccine
is not something that's likemandatory anymore, or if we've

(28:39):
changed that whole idea, that'syes, that's interesting, so
they're mandatory is kind of atough.
I know, I know it's kind of likeif they're saying in the school
system that they're going to begiven this vaccine and the
parent does not agree with it.
Obviously they can't force thechild to take that right.

(29:01):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
My understanding about the Ontario outbreak is it
started with a Mennonitegathering, so this could be
people schooled likehomeschooled in their own
community, so they're notnecessarily required to be
vaccinated to attend school.
But a few doctors that I'vespoken to and public health
representatives that I've spokento over the past couple of
years few years about diseasesand about measles I've done a

(29:26):
few articles on measles isobviously during COVID.
Vaccinations in general theylapsed because people were not
going for routine medical care,because you know doctor's
offices were closed or virtualappointments, only phone
appointments, only that sort ofthing.
So people, you know some kids,so are we?
Wow, yeah, so some kids justdidn't, just didn't get

(29:47):
vaccinated because you know that.
And then, of course, you knowit can kind of end up being a
little out of sight, out of mind, right, like you miss these
routine vaccinations but you'regoing about your life, you don't
really think about it andthere's not anyone reminding you
and it's not like you know youget a letter in the mail saying
like, oh, you know your child isdue, or oh, you know we
recommend this for you becauseit's been 10 years since your

(30:09):
last tetanus shot, like there'snobody to remind you that this
is recommended for you or thatyou know you're eligible for
this.
You know particular, you knowshot or whatever.
You have to have a familydoctor who's kind of doing that
work and a lot of people don'thave one, so that's kind of part
of the puzzle too.
So people basically are thereare a lot of people who are
choosing not to vaccinatebecause, again, they've a lot of

(30:32):
them are online getting scaredby non-experts telling them
crazy things that the measlesvaccine is called MMR will give
their child autism or will causebrain damage or will give them
cancer.
You know there's a lot of andthese are not, these are quacks
and people you know drumming upengagement who are saying these
things.

(30:54):
It's funny too, because I thinktraditionally anti-vaccination
sentiment was kind of popularamongst your further left wing
groups, like you're kind ofcrunchy granola, earthy kind of
parents you know, like the homebirth and raw milk, you know
type of people.
But now it's become very muchkind of part and parcel of some
in some more right wing circles.
Has a lot to do with COVID,right and vaccine mandates, so

(31:16):
they kind of pushed against that.
So that's kind of become a bitmore associated with like right,
some right wing movements now,which is kind of interesting
that that happened.
But you know there's a lot ofmisinformation out there and so
there are people who are justchoosing not to vaccinate for
that reason, and you know that'sa shame because measles is
quite dangerous and children canand do die of it.

(31:38):
But you also have people who didkind of fall through the cracks
during COVID and people whocontinue to fall through the
cracks because they don't have afamily doctor.
So basically, like I had toenroll Archer in kindergarten
because he starts in Septemberand they, you know, required,
and I even had to.
I don't have like an electronicrecord, I just have like the

(32:03):
yellow card.
So I actually had to like puteverything into, like a like
input everything into like atthe Toronto Public Health System
.
But I don't know what theconsequences are if I said no,
right, like I don't know.
If I were like no, I couldn't,possibly I don't.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Like are they going know if they actually?
Yeah, because it's a lot haschanged since then.
But I mean like it.
It seems like it's one of thosethings where I feel like the
district school board you know,whichever board that is would
probably use it the same waythat they would with COVID Cause
, like if you're sick, like theydon't want you bringing your
child to school to get otherkids sick.
You know what I mean, unlessyou're saying that they're fine,
right, you know what I mean.
It's a little bit different nowbut I think, like you said, I

(32:49):
am on looking at the CDC websiteand it looks like things have
changed because, like you said,things have fallen through the
cracks, especially if you don'thave a family doctor.
But the first measles dose isusually given at 12 to 15 months
, is that a year, a year?

Speaker 3 (33:10):
Yeah, archer, he got his MMR when he turned a year
old.
And that's another thing too isthat you cannot get the measles
vaccine too young.
I think if you are going to betraveling with an infant to an
area where measles is veryendemic, like meaning very
common, maybe like to a countrythat doesn't have like an

(33:32):
organized vaccination program, Ithink you can get them
vaccinated a little bit youngerthan that.
Like you can get them one dosemaybe, if they're maybe a little
less than a year, but not notnot brand new for sure.
But generally speaking, likechildren are not vaccinated,
like infants generally are notvaccinated for for measles in
Canada until they're 12 monthsold.
So that means that if a baby isexposed to measles it's it's

(33:56):
pretty dangerous and there'sreally not much a parent can do
about that because it's scary.
Yeah, it's really scary.
Yeah, so it.
You know, we we live in strangetimes where people kind of live
in these little online enclaves, and it's scary because we're
losing touch socially with eachother too, at a time like we've
never been.
We've never talked to eachother more, but it's not in

(34:19):
person as much, and and I seepeople out and about all the
time.
So I sometimes wonder if youknow, this talk about loneliness
and isolation is maybe a littleexaggerated.
I don't know for sure, butbecause you know, you do go out
and you see people out and about.
You see people at restaurants,you see people in people.
I haven't been to a movietheater in forever.
I really miss it, but I haven'tbeen.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, I haven call them the Gen Z to be able to
socialize more in terms ofmaking a phone call or receiving
a phone call, where they don'treally answer the phone when
they receive a call, becausewe're a society that texts more.
There's so many ways to text,you know, there's texting,

(35:09):
there's voice messaging, youknow, and it's so.
It's become so easy that Idon't know.
I mean, I still haveconversations with people, but
not as much as you know.
A text, like you said, withthese online echo chambers, as
you call them, it seems like itcan cause mass hysteria in a way

(35:30):
.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah and distrust and a lot of like the things that
we're seeing now we would nothave seen in the 90s.
We just wouldn't have.
The culture was different.
Our ways of communicating weredifferent.
We just didn't.
We had the internet in itsinfancy, like it was.
It was around but it was notall-encompassing.
We didn't have computers in ourpockets like we didn't.
We weren't, we didn'tconstantly have a little

(35:51):
computer in our hand like we donow.
And you're the computer in yourhand, like you know, tells you
all these things that you wantto see it and connects you with
people who say the same things,who kind of feed you know
anxieties and who might bolsteryour bad opinions.
Unfortunately, yeah, and itcontributes to anxiety and it

(36:12):
shortens our attention span.
Like I have, my attention spanis like shit.
Like it, my attention span isterrible and I know it's because
of my phone.
Like I can't, I need to.
I've been saying this to likepeople and I'm saying to my
husband for a long time.
Like I and he says it to me toolike I need to do one of those
like detoxes, like where you goto like a cabin, you can't have
any like technology and you'reforced to like read a book.

(36:33):
You need to do that divatonight.
Glamour for your ears.
This is 40, a female perspectivelike I have a lot of friends
who are teachers, who teach atvarious levels too.
Like I have friends who teachelementary school kids.
I have friends who teach highschool kids.
I have a good friend whoteaches the college level, and
one thing they're all noticingis just it's different little

(36:54):
kids, but just like a lack ofengagement and a fear of trying
anything new.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
When you say a lack of engagement, what do you mean?

Speaker 3 (37:04):
They don't engage with each other, like they're
always on there.
They're engaging, they'reactually that's.
I guess that's not fair for meto say they're engaging but like
, not with each other.
You know, like they they're ontheir phones all the time,
they're on TikTok all the time.
They'll chat with each other onFaceTime.
But my friend said that whenshe'll ask them you know she's a
high school teacher and shesays, when she asks her kids,

(37:24):
like you know, what did you dothis weekend?
Or what did you do overChristmas break or March break
or whatever, they'll say thatthey, you know, facetimed or
played video games.
And she said it's rare thatthey tell her that they went out
with people in person.
And it's scary and it really is.
And this is a weird thing I'venoticed because, again, like I'm
a terminally online person.

(37:44):
I'm online all the time, solike for work and just also,
again, like in my purse, like inmy spare time.
I spend too much time onlineabout this.
And there's like literatureabout this because it's I don't
think it's affecting everybody,but it's affecting a big enough
cohort of people that there'sdefinitely been some intrigue

(38:05):
and some study about it.
But there's this kind ofrejection amongst some people,
probably of all ages, but maybecentered a little bit more in
younger groups right now ofromance, of connection, and
that's definitely just like afear of being vulnerable and
getting to know someone orgetting too comfortable alone
and being isolated.
I know we've talked a lot aboutlike TIFF and movies in the past

(38:27):
, and have you seen Anora?
Anora, no, ok, so like one bestpicture at the Oscars.
Who's in that?
No one's super famous, actually.
Ok, the lead actress who wonthe best actress name's mikey
madison, I think I hope I'mpronouncing it right.
I hope she doesn't go by mickey, but I think it's okay, okay,

(38:48):
and and then the rest of thecast is like some like russian
actors.
It's a really interesting movie,okay, yeah, so I recommend it.
It's too long, as every movieis, but it was, it was good.
Cut it in half.
There was some stuff I thinkyou could cut, but yeah, yeah,
like the the cole's notes withthis movie is um, which is very

(39:10):
good and I strongly recommend it.
It's this, uh, this woman, uh,she's a stripper and she, you
know, is working at like theclub, young, beautiful girl, and
she meets this like also veryyoung russian guy who is, you
know, very fun, really wild,very, very rich.
And you know, basically hecomes from money, his father's

(39:32):
like this, like oligarch, andthey have this whirlwind kind of
romance.
At first it starts off where hejust like invites her over and
like they have sex, he pays herum, but then, you know, it gets
really like wild.
They end up getting married andthen when his family finds out
that he's, you know, marriedthis woman, they're like, oh my
god, this marriage must beannulled, like this can't
continue, like we can't have,like he can't marry this woman.

(39:53):
So it becomes this like reallywild kind of balls to the wall
movie.
It's not disturbing, it's notscary or violent.
It's very funny.
But it's also very sad and Icouldn't help but notice the
discourse Everyone calls it thatwhen they talk online about, on
Reddit or Twitter.
Reddit is also a big placewhere you can find, you know,

(40:14):
online echo chambers.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
Oh yeah, I go on there all the time.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
You just read things where, if you don't know how to
do something or you're unsure,there is a Reddit group for that
right, there is, there is, andactually if we had more time or
we could talk about a differentday, I could talk about
parenting groups and toxicitythat I see in Reddit.
Parenting groups, again,encouraging isolation oh my
goodness, it's crazy, crazy,crazy.
Encouraging a lot of isolation,like encouraging people to

(40:41):
reject help from family andfriends, encouraging people to
reject their own husbands Idon't think they think they're
it, doesn't?
They're not like they're in acult and they're trying to
convince people to do things.
I think they just think that'skind of the right way to live
your life and it's really scaryand unfortunate.
But again, with like Reddit andTwitter, with this movie Nora,
people were taking a lot ofissue with like the nudity and

(41:02):
the sex and some of the more offcolor jokes that really if in
the average millennial, I guesswho's like not particularly woke
like myself, wouldn't notice ortake issue with this stuff.
Like in the context of the film, it's perfectly normal to see
it.
It's not exploitative nudity,it's not.
It's not like a graphic kind of80s sort of movie, it's just,

(41:25):
you know, like it's an honestkind of depiction of this kind
of whirlwind, sexy relationshipand so many people were really
uncomfortable with it and Ifound that fine.
I mean, people have.
There's always been peoplewho've been uncomfortable with
sex in film.
That's not uncommon or abnormal.
But also last year, you mightrecall, I think the best picture
winner was poor things, whichwas a movie with emma stones I

(41:48):
am so out of the movie world.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
I really am.
I'm telling you now.
It's like I talk about likemovies with my sister and we're
trying to remember the floridaproject, which is something we
watched in cinema years ago.
But, like getting back to whatyou said about anora, that's
also.
That's not the director of theflorida project.
Are you serious?
Oh, that's so crazy.
Okay, so I don't know if you'veseen the florida project.

(42:13):
This is heading off.
I we found the ending to beabrupt and it left you like like
shocked.
I was like okay, like how am Isupposed to?
Left you like like shocked.
I was like okay, like how am Isupposed to react to this?
Like it kind of made you feellike you.
It left you without an answer.
Like usually, movies eitherhave a happy ending, a sad end,

(42:33):
something to think about, but Ithink it just ended.
The Florida project yeah, mysister and I still talk about it
and I think I have to re-watchit.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
But yeah, I have to re-watch it too.
I watched it years ago.
I remember enjoying it, but Idon't remember.
I only saw it once.
It was a few years ago, so I'dhave to like see it again to
remember the ending.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
But okay, but going back to what you said about
Anora, it made me think ofPretty Woman with Julia Roberts
and Richard Richard Gere.
So I don't know the ending ofAnora and I'm sure you're not
going to spoil it for me becauseyou want me to watch this film.
But it makes me think of thatbecause it kind of shed light on
the fact that you know, juliais a stripper as well and you

(43:14):
know the the whole idea thatsomeone like with of her caliber
wouldn't be they wouldn't theytreated her differently.
You know, like she was not apart of pop culture or
mainstream because of she's aworking girl, right, and in
society a working girl doesn'tget the same treatment.
But here we are, she meets this, this handsome man, and like

(43:38):
she gets the happy ending.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
So yeah, like the best way I can describe a nora
is like pretty woman, but crazy,yeah, crazy.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
they're both like enjoyable films in very
different ways, in very, verydifferent ways but getting back
to our original topic with echochambers, you're saying that the
online world is.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
I'm basically seeing some Puritanism creep into.
This has been the case for along time, but I've really
noticed Puritanism andconservatism really creep into
liberal circles.
I've said this before to otherpeople, kind of informally, that
liberals are the newconservatives, and they are, and
like I was mentioning poorthings, so if you ever see poor

(44:21):
things, it's also a verysexually charged film, but
absurd, completely absurd, verymemorable, very silly.
Emma Stone's performance,though, is like it's, it's
incredible.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Like I love Emma Stone.
Oh, my goodness, she's great.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
Yeah, she's amazing, and she pulls off this wild role
.
But the movie has a lot of sexin it, lots of nudity as well,
and people were like, I didn'tlike.
Those two films were returningto a time of a male gaze, of an
exploitive look of you know ofof women as objects.
In my opinion, those two womenas objects.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Oh my god, I think you know like we're taking film
too far, we're taking comedy toofar, like certain things that I
think in in our when we weregrowing up it wasn't so serious,
we didn't take everything forface value.
Like, could you imagine if,like Seinfeld was on now, so

(45:18):
many people would be offended byso many things?
You know, like oh yeah.
Or mad tv, oh my goodness, likeI.
I go back and I watch old, oldcomedy reels, like when Eddie
Murphy made fun of Mr Rogers'neighborhood and I laugh.
It's funny.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
I didn't even know that it was a thing, but hearing
you talk about how people takeoffense to a movie, yeah, and it
feels like everything needs tohave a moral message which is
very biblical and very churchy,where everyone you know needs
some sort of moral anchor towhat they're watching or reading

(45:58):
.
And I feel like for a long time, you know, liberal thought kind
of moved away from that, likeyou didn't need to have a
message to enjoy something andyou didn't need to frame things
in a certain way, and it didn'tmean that like there was no
movies or films or TV showswhere women were treated as
objects.
Obviously there are, but Ifound the people accusing these
two particular films of doingthat.

(46:19):
I found that very short sighted.
And it's not I don't know ifit's necessarily like, oh, it's
just a matter of opinion I thinkit's that people are thinking
in very binary ways, being likeoh, there's when you say binary
ways, what do you mean um blackand white?

Speaker 2 (46:33):
okay?

Speaker 3 (46:34):
okay, um, I don't mean in like terms of like I
know binaries used a lot interms of like gender oppression
and I don't mean it yeah, yeah,and I don't mean it that way.
I mean like black and white,right.
So this film was, and it's noteven like they see, like oh,
there's nudity, this is like anexploitative, you know,
anti-feminist film.
They're like this is a I see,like I see nudity.
This is an exploitative, youknow, anti-feminist film.
They're like this is a I see.
Like I see nudity, but thisdirector is male.

(46:55):
Therefore, you know, this is abad film because they'll defend
the substance, which don't knowif you saw that but there's a
ton, ton, ton ton of nudity inthat movie.
But it's kind of excused bythese same groups because
they're like oh, you know, it'stold from a woman's perspective,
it's shot by a woman, it'sabout, you know, aging.
But that's just because someonechecked different boxes in
their mind of what is and is not, you know, dumb and I find it

(47:20):
really close minded and I findit concerning and I just think
that there's a lot of puritanismkind of creeping into, you know
, discourse and discussion aboutart, discourse and discussion
about art and makes me kind ofworry that if you know art,
suddenly you you don't.
You've always seen certaintypes of people reject certain
types of like art and movies,you know, usually on moral

(47:41):
grounds, and this was kind ofsomething you'd be like.
You know, some people arechurchier, I guess, or, you know
, a little bit more prudish insome ways, but now you're seeing
people who claim to be veryleft-wing, who claim to be, you
know, very open-minded, veryprogressive that's their word,
progressive being veryregressive about arts and

(48:01):
culture, and I think it has justa lot to do.
Again, being online, you knoweverything's exploitation,
everything is oppression,everything is violence, oh okay,
and we have no ability to seethings that make us
uncomfortable or that make usthink, and I find it bizarre
that we're in this time where weneed messages spelled out for

(48:22):
us like we're kids.
I was watching this movie a fewyears ago, very good movie,
very good movie called theperfection on Netflix, and I
don't want to spoil this, buthave you seen it?

Speaker 2 (48:33):
no, I haven't okay, I feel like there's certain
things I haven't been watchingon Netflix, like, or I have
watched some films, but clearlynot the TIFF contenders in that
way.
But yeah, you were talkingabout the movie.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
Yeah the perfection, um, perfection, yes, yeah.
So you find out midway throughthe film and the film is crazy.
It's a wild ride from beginningto end.
It's great.
But they have this weird kind ofscene of exposition in the
middle where they startexplaining about how this one
character was like sexuallyassaulting these like other
characters.
And you know that this is whathappened, because, like, it

(49:10):
becomes very clear and apparentat this point that this is what
happened.
So you're like, okay, I get it.
But then they take all thistime to kind of be like he did
this and this is wrong.
And this is what happens whensomeone grooms you.
And grooming happens when and Iwas like why, why, why are you
making this into like a healthclass?
Like I don't need you toexplain this to me, I know
exactly what happened.
And it's like they had to likesuddenly take this moment to
like explain that like this wasan assault and assault is bad.

(49:31):
And it's like I don't, I didn'tneed it, I don't need.
It's a saying that people usefor politics, but it's when
you're explaining, you're losing, um because I guess they're.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
It seems to me like when you explain something it
becomes a documentary, notnecessarily a film.
Yeah, like it just became.

Speaker 3 (49:48):
It became suddenly kind of bumpy and you felt like
your intelligence was beinginsulted because you're, like I
understand.
Like I'm I've been watchingthis movie from beginning to end
.
Like I understand what happenedhere I don't need you to spell
it out for me.
Like looking at the camerabreaking the fourth wall, being
like oh guys, did you know thatrape is bad?
Like yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Do you feel like they're trying to cover certain
things, because people are notunderstanding certain things
anymore, like people don'tunderstand.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
Oh okay, I think I don't know yeah.
Yeah, like maybe they'retalking to weird focus groups or
something, but like I don'tknow, there's there's just been
little shifts in in behavior andnot, you know, and it would
seem good I remember to readingthis again, it not, you know,
and it would seem good Iremember to reading this again.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
It was a twitter thread, so it's like this my
husband's always like, don'tlike listen to people on like
twitter.
They're just weird.
So I want to say this becausewe were talking about it, and
since we're talking about theonline community, I was watching
a ted talk, as I said to youearlier, and, um, the ted
speaker you should watch, it's,uh, jim ross and he's from
Georgia University and he says,I believe that one tweet can

(50:56):
change the world, and so itseems like now we're having
courses online and everything'sonline and we're not meeting
people in real life.
I just go back to this bootcamp at Sheridan and, because of
COVID, I never met any of myclassmates.
Everything was online, right,and so that's where things are

(51:20):
going now, right, yeah, and it'sscary.

Speaker 3 (51:23):
It's scary.
It's scary.
It's not a good thing, and Isay this like I, my I make a
living on the internet.
Like our, our website, like ournew site, is completely online
A hundred percent.
I work from home.
I have since 2016.
Wow, which is a long time.
It's a long time.
It's a long time.
It's convenient for me in a lotof ways, but and I've, I've, I'm
very blessed and fortunate thatI've been able to maintain like

(51:45):
a pretty good social life LikeI've.
I keep in touch with like somany friends from different
parts of my life.
I've made new friends since Imoved to like this neighborhood
a few years ago.
Like I try to see people asoften as possible.
One friend of mine, like we'vebeen like you know, like I have
friends here now that I can likehang out with like fairly
regularly, some with kids, somewithout Went back to like a yoga

(52:05):
class last week, a hot yogaclass for the first time in a
long time, speaking ofmindfulness and wellness, first
time in a long time speaking ofmindfulness and wellness,
beneficial to my very tightmuscles.
Yeah, yeah, so I feel lucky thatI've been still been seeing
people like just hanging out,going for a walk, going for
dinner like I love going out fordinner, it's my favorite.
I just like I love drinking.

(52:28):
I'm drinking.
I don't get to do that as oftenanymore just because, you know
life, I'm an alcoholic, I'm not,I just love it.
I get to do it.
That's so funny.
Yeah, so I feel, like you know,like fortunate that I've still
been able to kind of get outthere and see people face to
face and hang out.
But I think you know, sometimesyou know you're in your pajamas

(52:50):
, you're sitting on the couchand you're like you know, like
I'm okay, kind of staying home.
But when you force yourself toactually go out and do things
and interact with people inperson, you feel better.
You like we're meant to kind ofbe with people and I think,
because we sit online, so muchof us, we get angry, we start
thinking about how people wantto, we start ascribing motives

(53:11):
to people.
Like you know, everyone is, youknow, oppressive.
Everyone is innately selfish,everyone is terrible, and it's
why you have, you know,political movements that you
have.
It's why you have like MAGA.
It's why you have you knowDonald Trump is the president is
because you know you had peoplebecome very angry, very
vengeful.
At the same time, too, we sawkind of you know the bottom

(53:32):
fallout of liberal andprogressive movements.
They became honestly very toxicfor voters.
That's part of this too.
People didn't want to supportparties that you know that they
also thought were vengeful intheir own way.
So you know, your averageperson, I think, has been kind
of like pushed out in a lot ofways.
At least you know in terms ofyou know because I think, with
you know, in terms of you knowbecause, like I think with you
know politics and elections andstuff, when people are doing

(53:55):
research for you know theircandidate, for their party,
they're doing a lot of thatresearch online and thinking you
know this is what the voterswant.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
It's interesting.
You say that we're doingresearch online.
I think there's a lot of it,because both of us I, you know
we're part of the, the era wherewe didn't have a computer to
look up something.
So if there was a rumorhappening at school and I got
around, that you know hey, you,ashley, here, apparently she

(54:24):
slept with this guy, paul, andyou know the rumors going around
and then you either believe itor not.
You know what I mean.
You ask your, you know youwhether or not this is true.
You know what I mean.
That's that was kind of likeFacebook or like how rumors
started, right, you know what Imean.
And, and there's no way to factcheck back, no, no, right, but,

(54:45):
but yeah, but going back todoing research online, I just
remember how many times I had togo back to the library if I was
doing any research because thebooks were the thing.
And now students can write anessay using chat, gbt, and I'm
just like that is unbelievable,as someone who had to cite every

(55:10):
reference to avoid plagiarism.
Here we are where we have asmartphone and a smart TV and
it's very, yes, it's unreal,it's very bad.

Speaker 3 (55:22):
The academic dishonesty is very bad and
friends that I have in academiabasically say it's so out of
control and that so many peopleare using ChatGPT to write
essays that it's becomeimpossible to enforce.
There's you can't enforce itthey can't suspend everybody.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Well, it's, it's, it's.
This stuff is not being spokenabout.
This is crazy.
The only reason I even knew isbecause a co-worker of mine was
telling me how to use chat GPT.
You know how he uses it to dohis homework and stuff and I'm
just like, if you didn't have it, would you be able to do your
homework?
You know, are you learning howto do, how to actually do

(56:02):
programming?

Speaker 3 (56:03):
you know it's kind of sad yeah, no, and it takes away
our resourcefulness.
Right, like every we are neverwe're very isolated.
We're very isolated.
We're very, some of us noteverybody, of course Like I
don't know in generality butlike a lot of people are very
isolated, a lot of people arevery angry, a lot of people are
very distrustful.
Hence, you see, reallypolarizing political movements
and a lot of people are notresourceful anymore.

(56:25):
And I say I'm not resourcefulanymore, either, right, like
I've been using GPS on my phonemore, either, right, like I've
been using GPS on my phone, I,if you were to give me a map and
tell me to go somewhere, I'd belike what, I don't know.
Like, you know, if we've lostour resourcefulness but myself
included and we've lost ourresilience in a lot of ways too,
because there's always some,you know, same thing, these
online movements, which can bevery abrasive and kind of

(56:48):
militant at the same time, youknow, don't really encourage any
self-improvement.
They encourage, you know,isolation and abandonment of
people who, you know, kind ofdefy the cause, but at the same
time, you can also go online tofind a lot of people who will
justify your behavior andactions, like if you say you
know I'm, I haven't left myhouse in six months.
I'm, you know, I'm a shell.

(57:10):
I'm, you know, that's fine.
Who needs to go outside?
So it's, it's kind of you canreally pick your poison.
I mean, you can find people whokind of you know, justify, you
know, every shitty thing you do.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
That's crazy because I guess it's true.
In a way, you can find a groupof people that match your ideals
and your way of thinking and Iguess you have to look for it.
But I go on TikTok and I've hadto remove the app on my phone
many times because it's veryaddictive.
The algorithm is quite crazy.

(57:41):
Like it knows exactly what Ilike.
I love music, I love listeningto music and video after video,
I mean I think I've learnedabout new artists that I would
like you know, like New Medicine.
But, like you said, there's anonline world and it's kind of
crazy, and so I'll describe itto you.
So, basically, you can go onTikTok and there are people who

(58:04):
have a TikTok following and wecan't talk to these people.
Like, I follow this one guy.
His name is Dawson, he's in BCand you know I don't go on it a
lot, but once you have a certainfollowing, ashley, on TikTok
you have people and they'retalking to you, obviously
texting you, but he's talking tous.

(58:25):
You know what I mean Respondingto people's questions and that
kind of thing, and that's howyou have isolation, because I
mean I don't really need tosocialize with people.
I was on the outside becausethere's so many platforms to do
it online.
Like it's crazy, like I meanit's sad that there's a room of

(58:47):
people who go online and watchsomeone because we find them
attractive or whatever it is.
But I was just like, oh wow,and they're live.
You know what I mean.
Like live chat room yeah, it's.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
It's a really bizarre thing that we and we've always
had this to an extent, I guesslike people we did, we did, yeah
, yeah, like that, oh, yeah forsure, but it's just, we can live
a whole life like in a room ona phone and it reminds me of
this, like, oh, my god, it stilldisturbs me and I still get
like I can't even listen to thesong when it comes on the radio

(59:20):
because it gives me like this,like oh my gosh, what on earth
is that?
just gives me like this, likeicky feeling, but I can't
remember.
But do you okay?
So pearl jam, you know the bandlike, yes, pearl jam, yes I
remember pearl jam yeah everyoneknows pearl jam.
But they came out.
They have a song, probably fromthe early 90s, oh, maybe even
mid 90s.
Basically, the song's old.

(59:40):
It's called like evolution ordo the evolution or something
like that.
And okay, it has.
It has a.
The song's like a banger song.
It's a good song, but the songit has a grotesque music video.
It's animated and it's justlike super, like violent and
like aggressive and very like.
It's a very confronting videoand it's meant to be like it's.
It's.
It gives you like a visceralreaction to it, which I guess it

(01:00:01):
does what it's supposed to, butit gives me like this, just
like awful feeling, like I findit unwatchable.
But there's a scene in thismusic video which is like this
really dark kind of dirtyanimation.
And there's a scene in themusic video where this man's
like typing at a computer andthen like suddenly, like
computer, shoots out these wiresand these wires like go into
his eyes and like attached tohis hands and like go into his
mouth.
So like he's just like sittingthere at a zombie, like

(01:00:22):
physically attached to thecomputer and he's just like
typing, typing, typing, likeconstantly, throughout, like,
and I feel like the world welive in now like is that?
It's that we're heading thatway?
we're that guy like it's likehe's been, you know, like
literally, like his body's beentaken by this computer, um, like
it's like plugged into all hisorifices and he's literally

(01:00:43):
attached to it and it's, youknow, horrifying.
But that's kind of like wherewe're at in a lot of ways and I
think we've seen a lot ofdegradation in our political
systems and our, in ourfriendships and our society.
You know because, as I've said,I say this jokingly to my
brother often, but we talk aboutthis a lot that you know, as I
said to you, I make my livingoff the internet and I benefit

(01:01:05):
from it in a lot of ways and Iuse it constantly, but I think
we need to destroy it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
Yeah, it's, it's.
I had this discussion with acolleague of mine because
there's some people, like yousaid, we're going around like
bots, like you watch peoplewalking and now, like there's so
many, there's really baddrivers now and, like I, I
constantly pay more attentionnow than ever before because I

(01:01:31):
watch people and I'm like areyou watching where you're going?

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
no, the facts bear that out.
Since COVID especially, therehas been an uptick in car
accidents and fatal collisions.
That, that is data supported.
Yeah, our driving has gottenworse since COVID.
I don't know if that's kind ofgoing back to baseline, but uh,
yeah, that, yes, yes and youknow we're talking about the
negative side of this onlinecommunity.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
But like, how, how could we possibly change this?

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
I don't um, I think, you know, I think the cat's out
of the bag or you know it's done.
There's still positives to it,of course, right like we're
doing this right now like, yeah,I wouldn't have this podcast
otherwise, but yeah, like we'redoing this right now.
I mean, ideally we should justbe at a studio doing this yes,
of course, because we'reactually both living at the same

(01:02:21):
place.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
But you know what?
Maybe we will do that.
Right, we should do that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
Yeah, definitely, definitely do that you know, it
makes it easier to do.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
It makes it easy, it facilitates like I wouldn't be
able to talk to half the peopleI I've spoken to because of it.
You know, I've, yeah, people inLas Vegas.
I remember one couple they werein was it New Zealand or
something, but they I don'tremember exactly how far away
they were, but it was like 12hours apart, like was it was

(01:02:51):
evening time for me and theywere just waking up.
It was just crazy.
But, like you said, it's foodfor thought.
I am going to walk away andthink about this in a different
way, because we have to bemindful more, like we do.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
We do we do Like there's there's, so there are
benefits Online banking Amazing.
There are benefits Onlinebanking amazing.
It's the best.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
Yes, it is there's pros and cons to everything, but
, like the saying is, it's socliche, everything in moderation
, as people say, like turn offthe internet at six o'clock, you
know.
But I like what I've learnedabout these echo chambers, as
you say, because I guess, at theend of at the end of the day,

(01:03:36):
you really can find people toback up whatever you believe,
which is kind of crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:03:41):
Because, yeah, you can and, like I said, it used to
be, if you were, if you believesomething really crazy, really
nutty, and you started tellingpeople this, there was a natural
consequence of that, which wasrejection.
And it's not like you don't getrejected now, but you can find
acceptance online.

(01:04:01):
You can find, you can find asubreddit, you can find a
Facebook group, you can findpeople on Twitter who will back
you up and who will affirm whatyou say and believe.
And it can go dark places whenyou have no kind of checks and
balances on your most.
You know, when you're havingyour dark night of the soul and

(01:04:21):
people are encouraging that it'sdangerous, what can happen, and
again it's.
I think we came, we had kind ofan enlightenment where we were
really living our best lives touse like a new cliche where you
know life was not perfect or butit was, you know, very peaceful
for the most part, veryprosperous for the most part.
We had seen unprecedentedbreakthroughs in health and

(01:04:45):
technology.
You know like we were living in.
You know homes that were safewith carbon monoxide detectors
and fire detector, which westill have, but we just you know
homes that were safe withcarbon monoxide detectors and
fire detector, which we stillhave.
But we just, you know, we wereliving very safe and prosperous
lives and we still are, for themost part, here.
But that is fragile and I thinkthat that's what we're seeing
now and I think it's aconsequence of being terminally

(01:05:05):
online for so many years, alsokind of little post-covid crazy.
But I think that maybe we gotbored with our prosperity and
affluence, maybe because wedidn't have, you know, that kind
of like hand-to-mouth struggle.
We weren't worried aboutwarlords, we weren't worried
about starvation, we weren'tworried about, you know, famine
and other, you know, verysignificant existential crisis.

(01:05:27):
We started to invent them.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
Yeah, like it's kind of crazy now, like if you wanted
to buy a house now, like eventhe simple things it's very,
it's hard, I don't know.
Like I mean, I talked tosomeone who said they spent like
the older, the baby boomers, asyou call them.
He was like oh, I bought myfirst house at 69,000.
I'm like that is-.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
Yeah, those days are over and housing is no.
Like that is yeah, those daysare over and housing is no.
That's a real problem like that.
That is a real problem becauseyou can expect houses in Toronto
, for example, to be a certainprice, like, if you, you know,
like a shitty house in Torontobeing a million dollars is
something that you can say, Iget it to an extent, it's.
You know, it's the biggest cityin Canada, it's the financial

(01:06:12):
and cultural hub of the country,but people should not,
absolutely should not, be payinga million dollars for a
townhouse in Barrie Bowmanville.
Yeah Well, yeah, the further outyou get from the city, the more
affordable your property shouldbe.
And it doesn't mean that thesetowns or cities are like not
desirable, they are, they justshouldn't.
The further they are from, youknow, the financial hub, the

(01:06:35):
transit hub, like, the moreaffordable they should be.
That's kind of the socialcontract.
So it's really unfair andterrible to kind of push people
as far away from the city aspossible and still, you know,
expect them to pay two thousanddollars a month for an apartment
.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
It's unreal in the end of the stage.
But I will say this that lifeas we know it is a little bit
different now than it was beforeand it puts things in
perspective.
And I think, like you said, youknow, when you feel like you're
a little isolated, it's time togo outside.

(01:07:10):
Like you said, I think we've alot of us have gotten
comfortable staying inside, evenmyself and I live on my own and
so sometimes, like I likebecause you're, when I'm always
around people like I don't workfrom home, so because I'm always
out, I like my quiet time.
But for you, when you work fromhome, like you want to go out

(01:07:30):
and do things and it's importantto do both and I think we've
been blessed that we were part,like, of a generation that got
to experience both, and I thinkI'm happy that I was able to
dial, make a phone call, youknow, use the phone book to look
up somebody's phone number.
You know what I mean the littlethings and spend hours in the

(01:07:54):
library where people think like,oh my gosh, you're going to go
crazy.
I'm like, how am I going to gocrazy from reading too much?
I don't know how, but Now weneed to go back to reading and
it doesn't have to be anythingsuper intellectual.

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
I mean, people want to read.
You know, very challengingstuff, by all means, of course,
but like I'm really trying tojust get back to reading like
top 40 novels, right, likeheather's picks.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
Like I just need to like, oh my god, emily giffen,
the reason for heather's picks.
That was like the first book, Ithink, from heather's pick that
I read.
But yeah, like I am trying toget back to reading and, like
you said, it's hard to read nowI I the attention span, you know
, yeah, my attention span isshit, it's just shit.

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
I've like read, like I've read like two novels in
like four years and it'sterrible because I used to like
go through spurts right where Iwould suddenly be like reading
very like all the time I'mreading a lot I would.
I would go through, like youknow, like novel after novel
after novel, you know having fun, you know nice little escape
from real life, but doingsomething you know a little bit

(01:09:00):
more stimulating in a good way,not just like watching screens
and you know doom scrolling, um.
So I need to get back to that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Um, I think yes I have a book for you to read.
I'm gonna say this, I'm car tosay this I'm Carlene and this is
Diva Tonight with AshleyNewport.
Thank you, ashley, for sharingthe craziness of society, you
know thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Thank you for having me on, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
Always fun, always fun, indeed, indeed.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back.
Send us a message on Instagramat diva underscore tonight.