Navigating Motherhood: The Messy, Beautiful Reality of 40

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Marie and Nicole share their experiences as mothers, entrepreneurs, and friends of 18 years, exploring the challenges and joys of raising children while maintaining their identities outside of motherhood.

• Friendship that has evolved into family over 18 years, with a "drive-by friendship" style where they drop in without formal plans
• Raising children in different environments - Nicole's experience in the UK and China versus Marie's entrepreneurial journey in Canada
• Childbirth complications and how medical systems often fail to support women through the "fourth trimester"
• Balancing work and motherhood through remote work, flexible schedules, and supportive employers
• Parenting styles from "free-range" to "tiger parenting" and finding what works for each unique child
• The importance of maintaining your whole identity beyond just being a mom
• Letting children discover their own strengths rather than imposing narrow definitions of success
• How having children later in life trades energy for wisdom and life experience

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• I want to thank my Podcast Editor Sean McAndrew!
• Thanks to Altered by Mom for sponsoring the music for the show
• Thanks to Colin Campbell for sponsoring the show!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva.
Tonight I have with me on Zoomthe lovely Marie and Nicole.
This is my first time doing, Iguess, a conversation with two
people at once, and since thisseries is devoted to life at 40,
I thought it would beinteresting to have you both on

(00:25):
the show to talk about.
You know, your experiences withbeing a mom, or what we call
mompreneur, and Marie's like afoodpreneur.
Is that right, I am afoodpreneur and I enjoy food.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
But yes, that works.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
I saw your little blurb there and I'm like, oh,
that works.
Yeah, I like that.
So how's it going, guys?
How have you been surviving theheat with the kids?

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, actually I was going to say so I have.
My kids are both in twodifferent schools, two different
school boards.
So TDSB stayed open that'scrazy and my youngest school
board actually just shut down.
So we just kind of packed upand we squatted at nicole's
house because she's got a pool.
So I was like we're coming overshe's like what are you doing

(01:14):
tomorrow?

Speaker 3 (01:15):
and I was like why?

Speaker 2 (01:18):
village man.
It takes a village.
That's gonna be like thegeneral premise, but like really
friends that you can just laughat the absurdity of motherhood
with, and I would not havepicked a better person to hang
out poolside with yeah, I mean,even before we started, you guys
were already having your likeconversation.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
I was just laughing in the behind the scene here and
I'm like, wow, this is yeah,like that was probably a snippet
of what happens every like justthrough the entire duration of
me and marie hanging out like wecan always just find space for
any conversation and at thispoint in our relationship, like
it's funny because at one pointwe lived together and then at

(01:57):
one point we didn't see eachother for like 10 years.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
And now we have what I like to call a drive-by
friendship, which is just like Isee her on a weekly basis,
where she just drops by my houseand with a kid and like hangs
out and then leaves and picks upher other kid and it's just
great.
It's like that's the ideal kindof friendship, where it's just
it's like when you're a kid andyou don't have to actually do
anything or make plans, justlike I'm coming over and then
that's it, and it's beautiful,it's sisterhood.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
And it's easy.
We're never obligated to doanything specific together.
If we want to go out for coffee, we will.
If we want to sit there andjust bitch for three hours,
bitch with bubble tea.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
That's right.
Oh, I like that, the wholebubble tea thing.
There was a phrase at one point, I remember just instead of
people going to the bar, theywere going to have bubble tea
and I was like what is this athing?
It's like midnight, people aredrinking bubble tea.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yeah yeah, like we had a tradition for a long time
where we would just go and havepho, like vietnamese pho, and we
call it our fun bitch or phonebitch.
There we just like sit there infront of a bowl noodles and
just talk about, you know, ourmother-in-laws a lot.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Oh my gosh Just life.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Just life and how complicated it is.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah, yeah, we haven't actually been for fun a
long time, but we've evolved tobubble tea at the moment.
But I'm sure we'll all be.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
With the economy.
It was just like a budget,right?
So wait a minute.
How did you guys meet?
Oh, do you want to tell it?

Speaker 2 (03:22):
The long and short of it is that we met through a
mutual friend and both of usliked each other better than we
liked that friend.
So we don't talk to him anymore, but Nicole was the best thing
to come out of that friendship.
There we go, right.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
When we first met 18 years.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, when we first met.
Sorry, 18 years, yeah, yeah,yeah, cause we've we've been
friends as long, almost as long,or just a little bit longer
than I've been married, becausewhen we met it was probably
around the December and we wemet, like our friend took us to
the Scott Was it?

(03:59):
Scott?
I was just a dive bar.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Nicole and I have a lot of things in common, but
music is not one of them.
There's not a lot of overlap inour musicals on it.
We just don't talk about music.
It's like the one topic we'relike let's just not.
But everything.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
I'm like I'm sure it wouldn't be a point of
contention, but at the same time, yeah, like I was dragged to
this place where I, with themusic, I just wasn't feeling it.
And I met this new person.
I wasn't in the mood and shewas like this, like Marie was
like you know who is this Nicoleperson?
She sounds awful or she seemsawful because I was just not in
for it.
But it turned out that weactually ended up getting along

(04:34):
very, very well.
And then I was like do you wantto come to my wedding, which
was only a couple months later?
And she was like sure, and thenit's just been from there.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
So I'll go to a party early in life.
I like that.
Wow.
So you guys are both, like now,living in in canada.
I mean, did we live abroad?
Both of you have right, no, notme.
I've learned not you, nicolehas, but like you've, you've
done, you've gone through a lot.
That's a long time.
18 years of friendships.
So what?
What makes a friendship last?

Speaker 3 (05:04):
I mean, I think that if you can make a friendship
last over one of those peoplebeing 18 hours by flight away,
that you can do it all.
So I think it's likecommonalities.
We have a lot of things that we, you know, just really see eye
to eye on.
We have, you know, things thatwe love, that we share, and
things that we don't, and thingsthat and that's okay too,

(05:25):
because I find you know whatMarie finds so interesting I
find I end up finding reallyinteresting and, like we kind of
we have a lot of skills thatcompliment each other.
Like you know, she'll come overand start tossing things out of
my, my wardrobe, ever solovingly, and telling me that I
have far too many yoga pants,which is fair, and telling me
that I have far too many yogapants, which is fair, but also

(05:47):
hurtful.
And then you know, and then Iwill skill share and be like you
know, this is not.
I had a knit.
I taught her knitting.
I taught her knitting just lastweek and she's doing great
Knitting.
Oh my gosh, that's fun.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
No, for sure.
I think it is aboutcommonalityality.
I think it's also about, like,just honoring our differences
too.
And yeah, we compliment eachother quite a bit and it's so
funny because I've sort ofbrought nicole into my work
environment and been like here,come, come, do this thing, come
voluntold to do things for thecommunity, and it's so hilarious
to be people like oh my god, Imet your sister and I'm like I'm

(06:23):
an only child, yeah, sister.
And they're like oh, yoursister, and it's like I take it
as a compliment because it'slike that's great, but like no,
we'll be standing right besideeach other and like, yes, we're
both biracial, but no, we don'tlook alike.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
And oh, but by far the best is standing like in
meeting marie's in-laws for thevery first time just before she
got married, and her father waslike it's so great to meet
father-in-law, father-in-lawother sorry, but I didn't know
father, he would knowfather-in-law said it's so great
to meet Marie's sister.
And I'm like you literally knowshe's not, she doesn't have a,
she's an only child, right, likeshe's marrying your son, don't?

Speaker 2 (06:58):
you know no clue it's a compliment, it's great.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, there we go it's like you guys mesh so well
that everyone thinks like nicole, you're part of the family
already, you've already just youknow, you just fit in like a
glove right yeah, I think that'sanything.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
Marie and I like our friendship has evolved past just
being friends, like we are verymuch family.
Her kids are, you know my, uh,my nieces very much, so one of
them is my goddaughter, but likethey call me, my, their aunt,
you know my, uh, my nieces verymuch, so one of them is my
goddaughter, but like they callme my, their aunt, you know my,
uh, my kids call her aunt marie,like it's just, it's, that's
where it is, yeah no, that's sogreat.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
So what did you guys do for your 40th birthday?
Start things off like, ah,let's do anything crazy.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Remember I don't remember my 40th.
I remember my 41st was a biggerdeal.
Just because of like I don'tknow, I didn't make a big deal
of my 40th, but my 41st Icelebrated in Mexico, so that
was a bigger deal for me.
But yeah, my 40th was still.
I guess we were a little, stilla little close to COVID, ish.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
You know, like we're still still dealing with that
Right, still dealing with thatright, so not as big of an
opportunity yeah, I uh, Iactually celebrated my 40th when
I was still living in the uk,but I was exiting the uk, so it
was a little bit like normally Idon't do big birthdays for
myself, I just I'll get togetherwith friends, but don't make a
huge deal of it.
But it was a huge deal thattime just because I was also

(08:19):
exiting um and moving back tocanada.
So I had, like, all my friendsin the UK got together, we went
day drinking which is likedefinitely my forte and ended up
how early did you start?
Oh, in the UK.
You know, in the UK there isnever such a thing as too early
to start.
Oh, my gosh, I think probablyaround 10 am, and then, you know

(08:42):
, probably I think we capped outprobably about 7.30.
That was enough.
So, yeah, but we were doingshots on at, like the gay club
at, you know, 6 pm.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
So wow, you definitely started the year off
like was a bang right for sure.
So you know why we're talkingabout like you living in the UK.
What was that like?
Like raising your kids in theUK?
What was that like Like raisingyour kids in the UK.
You know that experience.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, I mean we really loved it.
It was a little bit of a likecrazily enough a culture shock,
because we had moved to the UKafter living in Shanghai for
five years.
So being so used to Asianculture and then moving back
into more Anglo culture wasactually shocking, despite the
fact that we're Canadianourselves.
And just because, like as muchas the UK is definitely

(09:26):
obviously English friendly, it'snot Canada.
It's very different.
Their systems are different.
The way that some of theminteract are very different.
I remember going into thegrocery store in my first week
and they said, like are you allright?
And I was like, why do I notlook all right?
What's your problem?
But like, that's just like thegeneral greeting.
But I didn't know what to do orhow to take him and like, so

(09:50):
learning those little likethings on the side was was fun
and challenging.
My kids obviously were veryfish out of water because you
know everyone had expected themto act a certain way.
Coming from asia, when it'slike, nope, there's still very
much canadian kids, you're notgoing to find very much
obedience out of them.
Like, they just have thatstreak.
And no, they don't fully speakMandarin, sadly.
And no, they're not especiallygood at math.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
So like the whole stereotype.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Oh my gosh right, yeah, yeah but we, we absolutely
loved the UK.
We were there over COVID and westill kind of feel like we
didn't have enough of it.
We did get a chance to exploreall over the country, which was
lovely, but I mean we were verycomfortable there.
The winters were not awful likethey are here.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
I'm trying to remember, like what Nicole said
about whether or not you'veraised your kids abroad, or if
it was just I raised them here.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Raised them here, okay, but I mean I raised them
here, but I mean I raised themhere while being an entrepreneur
, so I didn't have mat leave, sothat was its own like little
thing.
You know, to have back to backpregnancies and then just sort
of like have like two babies inthe crib and then you're like
typing out emails, like it wasjust a little bit chaotic.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
Wow yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
I didn't hear.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, you know, I don't know if you want to talk
about this, but I watched one ofyour reels and you said that
you were talking about yourexperience with childbirth and
how you had some complications.
So I watched a bit of that andI mean I think that's really
brave of you you know what Imean to to to take that step.

(11:24):
I guess the challenge is amotherhood like even just having
a child right when there's somecomplications with that.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
So yeah, I mean, talk about that, or sure, yeah, I
mean I was.
Uh.
I always tell my friends whodon't have kids like the kids
are fine.
The systems around motherhoodare ghetto, like all of those
systems.
Every piece of it is just.
It doesn't make any sense andit would just be so much easier
to be a parent if those systemswere a little bit more concise.

(11:53):
But the first one being likehow we handle birth in Canada or
I guess the system as a wholeis a little bit weird.
I had complications with both mypregnancies.
With my first one it was alittle bit more medical.
I actually ended up beinghospitalized for a month before
delivering and then I delivereda month early and then I went
back to the hospital because Ihad some complications and that

(12:14):
was a whole thing, because it'slike we don't recognize the
fourth trimester.
I always tell people it's likeif you broke your arm and then I
put it in a cast, your arm'sstill broken.
So if you just delivered a babythree days ago, even though
you're technically not pregnant,you're pregnant.
Your body is still very muchpregnant.
You are still very much inharm's way.
In terms of pregnancy-relatedcomplications, they're not as

(12:34):
common, but it can happen and Iwas just not prepared for how my
body would react to pregnancy.
And then it was a bit of asurprise to get pregnant three
months later and be like here weare.
You know, I was told I couldn'thave kids, so it was just,
everything was just very like.
We wanted them, we tried forthe first one and then it was

(12:55):
just.
I just didn't think it wasgoing to happen so quickly and
so effortlessly, giveneverything.
And then with the secondpregnancy, that was a little bit
more complicated and we had anawful, awful experience with the
doctor who delivered the baby.
She's been accused of all kindsof things and being
investigated by the college orwas being investigated for gross

(13:15):
negligence with regards to like2,500 women who got exposed to
certain things.
But yeah, I had an awfulexperience with her and I, you
know, after seeing that articlecome out, I wanted to share my
experience because, yeah,childbirthing is challenging
enough but it's more mental thanphysical and I can say that
having like extra stuff, like asketchy doctor or like weird
experiences like that, just theymake them more complicated and

(13:38):
it really changes the way youwalk into motherhood because
obviously, if you're walking inwith some trauma.
It's stuff you have to dealwith and unpack, as you're also
raising human beings and tryingto get yourself together and
heal and all these other things.
It's just a lot.
It's just a lot.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, so you said you had complications with both
your children.
So was it like did you have acondition that prevented you
from having an easy childbirth?

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Like uh, I developed postpartum preeclampsia with my
first and most of the time it'spreeclampsia.
It's a condition where, likethey don't know what causes it,
but it's like the placentadoesn't quite attach to the wall
properly and essentially thebody starts thinking the
placenta is a foreign object,you know, and it starts
attacking it and the immunesystem.
But, like, all of your majororgans and all of the baby's

(14:28):
major organs go through theplacenta.
So if your body's attackingitself, it's basically shutting
down all your major organs.
So that was with the firstpregnancy and then I developed
it with the second one.
Obviously they knew they werelike there's a good chance
you're going to develop it.
So they knew what they werelooking for.
But with the first one it waslike the prize you have to go
back to the hospital becauseyou're having a hard time
breathing, you know, and youcan't walk and it was just, it

(14:50):
was a lot.
But yeah, I think that that'sthe thing that probably
surprised me about motherhoodthe most, because I mean, even
in the books I was reading I wasreally reading a lot of like
woo-woo books I really wanted tohave like a home birth.
I wanted to like Nicole and Iwe both are big, like we do not
like hospitals, and she had ahome birth and I was actually
living with her when she had herown birth and I was like I want
a home birth and I bought apool and I was like ready to

(15:12):
give birth in my living room andwith no intervention, and I had
every intervention, almostevery intervention possible, and
it was just like that, thatdream of having my like a low
intervention pregnancy just wentout the window.
Yeah, it's your body surrenderto whatever is gonna happen yeah
, oh so, speaking about homebirth, the cool.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
How is that having a home birth?
Do you remember?
Like I mean, when it comes tobirth stories, like when people
tell you like wow, I had no ideait could be like that.
Right, that's the thing that weyeah.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Yeah.
So for me, like like Marie said, I'm not a huge fan of
hospitals.
I kind of feel like that'swhere only sick people go and I
feel like in pregnancy unlessyou have complications leading
up or whatever, that you are nota sick person like you're a
very well person and so medicalright, exactly.
And so I was really gung ho onhaving a midwife and having a
home birth, and my family wasnot, but that's okay, cause it

(16:14):
wasn't their experience, but myhusband was supportive, so
that's really kind of all Ineeded.
And when I went into labor Ididn't know I was in labor and
the only reason I really kind ofknew I was in labor is when Ben
, my husband, started buzzingaround the house and being like
just like preparing, you know,calling like Jen, our other
friend, to pick up the dog, likeMarie knew about it, like

(16:35):
everybody, and I'm just likewhat's happening.
But then, yeah, then I had ahome birth in my bedroom with my
lovely midwife, who also didn'tthink that I was in labor until
she saw me, and then she waslike, nope, you definitely are.
And then I mean I didn't do any, you know, training on
breathing or any hypnotherapy oranything like that no Lamaze

(16:57):
classes, no, I just kind of wentwith it and I'm lucky that I
have a very high pain tolerance,like that's something that I
just have always had.
So it was a great experience.
He was out in 12 hours andhealthy and happy and, you know,
I was also very aware that ifsomething was to go wrong, I was
only a certain like fiveminutes away from an actual
hospital.
I could get there and we wereprepared for that possibility.

(17:21):
But no, very lucky, everythingwent through fine and in China I
didn't have the luxury of beingable to have a home birth.
My second one I had in Shanghaiand we had to be in a hospital
it's by the government and itwent as expected.
I wasn't able to, you know, bein the birthing positions that I
wanted to be.
That made me comfortable.
It was all about kind of morebased around the doctor and how

(17:42):
comfortable they were in megiving birth and which was very
different from having my midwife, which was all mostly centered
the care around me and making mecomfortable.
Regardless.
Oren came in a good four hoursum, which was, you know, very
uncomfortable, but he did comeout and, yeah, like in less than
24 hours I was walking myselfout of that chinese hospital

(18:05):
while they chased me becausethey didn't think that I could
walk but I could and they chasedme down the stairs until I got
into my car and was like, signthe papers.
And I was like, oh yeah, I haveto do paperwork, for you know,
when I give birth.
But, yeah, I, I love my homebirth.
I would have, I would if I hadany more kids.
Um, I do that, I do not want,would probably.
I would just say I'm like theanswer is no, the answer is no

(18:26):
more children.
We're good.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
We're good, yes yes, I've read you know what I was
reading stats guys, and they say, like in our time now, like in
our generation, we're havingless kids, and I think there's a
lot of factors that come intoplay with that.
I was reading this article and,yeah, I think we're women are

(18:51):
having children old, older,later in life, and they're also
focusing more on their careers.
So, as both career women, whydo you think that's the case?
Like it's so different fromlike 50 years ago.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
How old were you, nicole?
When you had five, I was 28.
Okay, 33.
So we're on the older side ofthings.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
I guess it's funny because, like in my family, I
was definitely like over thehill, Like my family was like,
you know, because all the womenin my family before I came along
and I'm the only female in mygeneration of my family all of
them had their kids before theywere 20.
And you know, they were farmore invested in me having a
child than me getting married.

(19:26):
So and I was like, no, thankyou, I'll have them when I'm
ready.
And so, yeah, 28.
Oh, the declining birth rateand all women are having
children older.
Why is that a bad thing?
We have so many people in thisworld, so many kids who are
being unloved.
Why do we need to pump thatinto that system more?

(19:51):
And also, why is it not okay togive women the space to live
their lives before they startfamilies?

Speaker 2 (19:56):
I was going to say a big part.
I tell my kids I'm here toraise you, to help you learn how
to be, like I can't tell youwhat to do your whole life.
And like for me to even have aresemblance of like anecdotes to
share with my kids, I needed tolive my life right.
I've done the good, the bad,the ugly.
I've done all kinds of things.
I've had all kinds ofexperiences and I can share with

(20:16):
them the learnings right.
And and I tell the kids all thetime like it's like fuck around
and find out right, there's twoways for you to learn about
things in this world is you canexperience them yourself, for
better or for worse, or you canlearn through people that love
you, that that care for you,that want to share their
experiences with you, so thatyou can sort of like reap the

(20:37):
benefit of just knowing withouthaving to like go through the
pain of all of those things.
But like for me, you know,without getting into specifics
for my mom's privacy, she didn'thave me until she was almost 40
.
And so, like for me, there wasnever that pressure to have my
kids early.
I didn't even know if I wantedto have children.
It really wasn't until I met mypartner and I was a stepmom for

(20:58):
like eight years or no, sixyears before I was ever a mother
.
So I kind of got littleglimpses.
I mean, stepmom is a completelydifferent role, like you're
more of like a supporting, coolaunt type of thing, especially
as they get older and they'renot at your house as much.
But like, yeah, I got glimpsesof what it looked like to be in

(21:18):
a family unit and I really likedit.
And you know, I think that'sthat's the thing.
Like it's difficult.
The hardest part aboutparenting, like I said, is those
, the structures and the, thesystems that make it very
difficult.
Like you know, school's done atthree o'clock but all your
workplaces are done at five andlike bullshit, like that.
Or daycare is impossible to getinto and like all this crap,

(21:39):
like that's the hard part.
But the kids themselves, likeI'm always like it's it was the
best of times, it was the worstof times.
Like you have the best daysyou've ever had and then the
hardest days you'll ever have.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
Let me tell you yes, absolutely, and like I don't.
I think one of the key thingsthat you said is, like you know,
sharing experiences, and I justthink that women who are older
have more experiences to share,like they have more lived
experiences.
They have so much more in-deptheducation knowledge like to
share when parenting, which Ithink is so valuable because you

(22:11):
know, kids, having kidssometimes it just doesn't always
work out and those people growup to be older adult parents and
yes, they had now are able tolive their lives when they're in
their 40s, but then they dostuff that's like no, you should
really only do that when you're20.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
And I will say, like there's nothing that kicks up
trauma, quite like having a kid,because, like you're kind of
you're either you're either likerepeating stuff that you
enjoyed from your childhood oryou're potentially remedying
things that you didn't enjoy.
And so if you're not ready toface mirror versions of yourself

(22:49):
and recognize that they are notyou, so it's like you know
there's something there whereit's like you're there to guide
them, you have an opportunity tokind of like resolve your own
stuff.
You can't force them to dothings, right, and so it's just
like it's this, it's this dance,and you have to have a certain
amount of maturity to understandthat and that it's coming for
you.
Like I've learned so much aboutmyself for my kids and they've

(23:11):
learned about themselves throughwatching me as well.
Right, we're just kind of likebouncing off of each other, but
I think if I was in my 20s, likeI don't know, I wasn't ready
for that, and like not dogginganyone who has kids when they're
young, or you know, we all haveour own journey.
But I remember kind of, likeyou know, having my first and
being pregnant at 33 and peoplesaying, oh, you know, having

(23:32):
your kids young means you havemore energy and I was like I
guess.
But I mean, I'm trading offenergy, I guess, for wisdom, so
I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
I'm okay with that.
You know it's piling off,because I had another guest on
the show and she had her firstchild in her 30s and then her
second and her fourth and Ithink she was better prepared
for her second child at 39, well, 39, 40 than she was in her 30s
.
Because, like you said, eventhough you have the energy, you

(24:01):
don't have the wisdom and Ithink is, then it's probably the
best that, because you'retalking about trauma and that's
something, um, I can't relatebecause I do not have kids.
But I know from talking to mysister that she said if you
don't have those things resolved, they come up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do you find like there'scertain things that did come up

(24:26):
where you're just like, oh, Ididn't expect that.
Or I mean, like this parentingthere's.
There's no one book I thinknicole and I talked about that
over email like there's noperfect manual book out there.
I mean, you can read everythingin the book about parenting,
but until it actually happens.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
I think Nicole and I are both big on like grit and
resilience, like embedding thatinto our kids and I mean I have
two girls, she has two boys, soit's gonna look very different.
Like grit and resilience lookvery different.
But I know like for me, like I,my kids are very different from
each other and one of my kidsis like super, super, super
sensitive.
She wears everything on hersleeve, like you can tell when
she's she's got big emotions,she has big feelings and you

(25:08):
know talking to her about whatit looks like when people are
mean or they're bullying her,right, and and saying sort of
like.
And I know that my parentswould have never said this to me
, but I I'm like it's okay thatpeople don't like you and it's
okay that you don't like peopleDoesn't mean you can be mean to
them, but not everyone has tolike you and you don't have to
like everyone, right, but youjust stay out of their way and

(25:28):
as an adult it's no different.
You're going to meet people thatyou're not going to like, but
that's a different story.
So it's like making thatdifferentiation.
Being like this is totallynormal.
It's totally normal for you tomeet people and be like these
really aren't my people.
But that's a very differentexperience, than you know, than
being mean.
So it's like sort of separatingthe wheat from the chaff so
that she can sort of be likeit's okay that this person

(25:49):
doesn't like me, but what's notokay is that they're being rude
to me, right, and so even makingthat differentiation, like
that's not something that Iwould have gotten as a kid.
It would have been like they'rejealous of you, right, are they
, mommy, are they?
And it's like no.
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
No, no, yeah, it's just like not the talk that you
want, right?
So that's supposed to likebuild your confidence.
But I think what you said toyour daughter is so true, but I
think we had this conversation.
I true, but I think, um, we hadthis conversation.
I just remember this goingafter, but you guys were talking
about how your kids arelearning like their strengths,
like in terms of likepersonality.

(26:27):
I think you were saying, nicole, like one of your sons knows,
he's learned how to get what hewants, like with certain things,
yeah, and do you remember?
I think you briefly said thatlast time you know, like.
Learning at a young age likethis is how I can get what I
want.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
Oh yes, I mean, my youngest has always been like
adorable, and he came outadorable and he would charm the
pants off of anybody.
And I remember, before he evenstarted school, he was always
very well acquainted with allthe teachers that were going to
be his eventual teachers andthey were just like we have to
work out, look out for him.

(27:03):
And they eventually ended uphaving a meeting about him being
like listen, you got to lookout for him and he will use
every charm in the book.
He'll bat his little eyelashes,he'll smile his little smile
and he will get out of it.
And it's so true, like Oren isa master at that kind of
privilege, very cute privilege.
I feel like now he's pre-teen,it's starting to rub off a

(27:25):
little bit, because you're likeno, now you're just smelly,
you're not as cute.
He still has it in there,though, where people are like,
look at him, he's adorable, andyou're like, no, no, no, don't
trust, don't trust it, don'ttrust it.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, I have one of them.
I mean both my kids are reallycute, but again, they're a year
apart and one of them enjoysperforming femininity a lot more
than the other, right, she'slike the girliest of girls,
right.
So it's like I, I mean I I lapit up and I give her, like some
of my old costume, jewelry andstuff, and like she's very much

(28:02):
the girliest of girl.
And my other kid is not asinterested in leaning into
femininity.
It's pretty neutral across theboard, you know like, and she
really doesn't care.
But it's interesting to see howpeople react to them and so
sometimes those reactions have abunch of bias that we have as a
society.
You know, like one kid will dosomething, it'll be perceived as

(28:23):
maybe less annoying or lessoffensive, and then the other
kid will do it and it'll be seenas more aggressive, just
because, like, one isn't leaninginto femininity as much.
In fact, a lot of times one ofmy kids gets misgendered as a
boy.
I mean they all kind of lookthe same, right, but I mean
she's got short hair.

(28:43):
They both have short hair, butagain, one of them has a little
bit more of a generic look andyeah, it's very interesting to
see how, how a potential boywould be treated versus a very
feminine girl.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
I mean I don't love that, like I don't love that
juxtaposition, and just I thinkat the end of their kids, right,
they should, they should, yeahwell, because they feel it too
right, because I remember therewas one part where your eldest
was like upset that a lot of theattention was focused on the
youngest because, oh yeah, socute people will walk up and be
like she's so cute and then noteven comment.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Oh the other one I'm telling you, I'm like they're
both very, they're just, theyjust they don't even look alike.
I would argue that Nicole and Ilook more alike than mine.
Yeah, probably, you know, andthis is I mean both Nicole and I
are interracial and so, likeour kids are as well.
So it's just one of those, likeyou know, throw dice in the

(29:35):
thing, give it a shake and weend up with whatever.
I have one kid that's got curly, sandy brown hair and blue eyes
.
I've got another one who's gotstraight brown hair and brown
eyes and they don't lookanything alike.
But it's just very interestingto see how the kids are treated
by others, and I think part ofour job as parents is to remind

(29:56):
our kids who they are, becausewe're witnessing them at in
multiple areas.
Right, we, we've gotten to knowthem before they went to school
.
We get to see them with theirfriends, we get to see them with
family, we get to see them intheir best times, in their worst
times and I think, as we getolder even myself I've
experienced that when you havethat like little crisis where
you're like who am I and what amI supposed to do in this world?

(30:18):
And like what's my purpose andlike, oh, like this whole thing.
It's nice if you, your parents,are paying attention, it's nice
for them to be able to remindyou, kind of like this is who
you are, you know, don't, don'tlet this get you down diva
tonight.
Glamour for your ears.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
This is 40, a female perspective yeah, and to be
accepting of that as much aspossible.
I mean, my sons have evolvedthrough their experiences for
sure, their experiences ofliving overseas and multiple
moves and you know thesesituations where they've been
forced to create brand newfriends groups for themselves or

(30:53):
like I've had to create forthem, and they carry it forward
either or and it's beenchallenging at times for them
and it's really molded who theyare.
I have one who you know startedoff as very much as an
extrovert, easy to make friends,and he's kind of gone a little
bit more introverted because youknow, the timing of our moves
has been more difficult for himat his age stage versus my

(31:15):
youngest one where he's alwaysbeen put in situations where
it's like instant friends,versus my youngest one where
he's always been put insituations where it's like
instant friends.
So he has those kind of easiertimes at being an extrovert and
joining things and being social.
Now it could also be a part ofstages because you know, marie
has younger kids, my kids areteen and pre-teen and hormones
come into play, all kinds ofstuff comes.
I don't I can't even handle itlike male friendships are

(31:38):
completely different, completelydifferent to male yeah, like a
lot of boys these days are very,completely fine with their
friendships are done throughscreens, like that's how they
conduct their friendships, andthey don't necessarily hang out
as much anymore, um, or if theydo again, it's through a screen,
um, and that's very differentfrom how I grew up, where you

(31:58):
know we would get together.
We and I still very much gettogether with my friends.
I see marie every week.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
it would be weird for me if I it is weird if you guys
were doing like zoom calls andyou know, like having no sharing
yeah, egregious amount of memesharing.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
That happens on all platforms if I don't hear from
her for like two days and I'mlike she dead, so there's
something wrong.
You good, you're good, you'realive.
I haven't seen a little boo-booin like 24 hours.
Yeah, and just being acceptingof like you know the stage that
they are, because you'll get alot of comparisons in parenting.

(32:35):
You'll get a lot of peoplebeing like, oh well, mine does
this, yours doesn't do this, andmine acts this way and yours
doesn't.
And you know, for a while I wasreally worried that my kids
weren't normal, right, but likethey're normal in their way,
which is exactly where they needto be.
And I think what?
I think maria was you.
That was like you.
You meant you mentioned myeldest and like how chill he was

(32:57):
and how like he seems veryconfident, yeah, mature.
And I was like, yeah, you'reright, like he doesn't need to.
He's not the preening type ofboy.
He doesn't get up in themorning and 45 minutes early and
make sure his hair is right,make sure his clothes is right.
He's like he's a kid, that a 14year old kid who's not at that
stage yet.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
And I'm OK with that and that's normal too like to
just, you know, be easy in whohe is.
So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we've talked a lot aboutlike motherhood and like your
own trials and tribulations, but, like career, like I mean, you
do work during you know the dayand so how do you handle that?
Like you know the challenges of, like you know, work and then
balancing your home life?

Speaker 2 (33:40):
My work experience has been all over the place.
So I mean, when I had the kids,I was an entrepreneur and that
was like it had.
It had pros and cons and I meanI think they were kind of the
double edged sword right.
So it's like it's like pro nostructure, con no structure.
My day could be whatever, butthen it could be whatever.
And so, like you knowboundaries and limits and all

(34:00):
that stuff with your work, likekids are boundary and limitless
at that age because they justneed you, and like, of course,
your business is boundless andlimitless at that age as well.
So it's like it was really hardjuggling the two.

(34:24):
But when the pandemic hit so mykids were about like two and a
half and one and a half and twoand a half when the pandemic hit
and I was already used to beingat home with them and they
weren't in daycare.
They've never been in daycareand I remember I got my first
corporate job just for like itwas like an eight week contract
that ended up lasting six months.
And there's a couple of thingsthat I noticed.
Like one was like watchingother people lose their minds
about having their kids at homeand me being like, oh, it's hard
or something.
I knew it was hard, but it wasjust the reality of watching

(34:47):
successful people just losetheir minds.
They're like, what am I goingto do with these kids?
How am I going to do this?
And I was like I've normalizedthis thing that people are
losing their minds about and itkind of gave me grace to kind of
be like this was really hardand I should be easier on myself
and be proud of what I was ableto accomplish during that crazy
time.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
But how were you able to accomplish it?
Cause you said, like the wholestructure thing, did that go out
the window, like I mean, likethey're, they're a year apart
and then you're managing, you'rewiping away the you know,
sending an email to a client,yeah, I mean, my health was
really hard.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
I'm really lucky that I have a really good like
between my parents and myin-laws.
I have a lot of support I thinkmore support than most people
that I know.
My parents are retired.
Like I went back to thehospital for two weeks after
having my first, so literally Ihad a baby.
I went back to the hospital fortwo weeks after having my first
, so literally I had a baby.
I went home for three days andthen I had to go back to the
hospital for two weeks withoutthe baby.

(35:43):
Right, you're not like dragginga baby with you to the hospital
.
So my mother-in-law actuallytook my baby and like raised it
for the first two weeks of life,and that was hard.
And then, like you know, we didcatering and so when I had to
be on site somewhere, we alwayshad a friend or somebody would
come help.
A friend of mine who wastraining to be a PSW, she came

(36:05):
in and she helped a lot and shewas just like sometimes it'd be
like hey, do you want me to comeover, just so you could take a
shower, and I'm like, oh my god,yes, you know, and it's, it's
like it takes a village and ofcourse, nicole was, I think,
still in China, potentially.
I believe.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
No, I was in the UK during but it's.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
But it's interesting to kind of like.
Like I have different markersof like what friends were there,
based on like where they wereand where I was in my life too.
And then now I work for anon-profit where, like I from
home, I have a very flexibleschedule.
I finally have found a placewhere having children and being
able to demonstrate my abilityto manage all of the crazy

(36:48):
things that come with kids theschedule, the home, everything
those are assets and they shouldbe.
I think a lot of times employerslook at women of a certain age
as a liability.
It's like, oh, you're going tohave to dip out early to grab
your kids.
Or like kids are sick and it'slike, yeah, my kids are sick, I
still get shit done.
And it's like, yeah, I have todip out to go get my kids.

(37:09):
But like, again, unless you'redoing work that requires you to
be on site, like my husband's achef, so he has to be on site
all my work can be done remotelyand I do it remotely.
And it's like there's noobligation for me to go into the
office or for me to show face,just for some arbitrary, like
corporate culture.
Meanwhile, like my kids are indaycare and I'm spending like

(37:29):
crazy amounts of money, um, butyeah, like everyone keeps asking
me, like what are you gonna dothis summer?
And I'm like my kids are gonnabe here, just like they are
every summer.
You know like it's changed.
It's like we're just continuingwhat we've been doing and like
now they're they're old enoughthat they can pour their own
cereal and they can watch tv andthey can, you know, they can
read a book and they can, likethey can, take care of

(37:51):
themselves to some extent.
I'm in my office, it's like inmy bedroom, it's like one door
over and we're in a small condo.
It's just.
You know it works, but I knowit doesn't work for everyone,
but it works.

Speaker 3 (38:04):
I left.
I left a 13, well, yeah, 13year career in television and
radio to be an expat for myhusband's career.
So we moved over to China forhis job and when we got there I
was what's known as a tie tie,which is, you know, women who
lunch, like ladies who lunch, wedon't.
We do something.

(38:25):
I have to keep myself busy orelse I go crazy.
So I had the opportunity tobecome an entrepreneur and I
like evolved myself throughbusiness over there.

(38:47):
I, you know, I started writingfor a magazine, I became a
columnist and I created my owngraphic design giftables
business, which was crazy, and Imade these pillows, which were
you know.
I kind of wish that I discoveredmy business in that earlier
because it was really lucrativeand really fun.
At one point I had like 300pillows piled up in my doorway

(39:08):
and people were like what'sgoing on and I just like pillow
business at Christmas.
It was crazy and my kids wouldbe like you know what is this?
And I'm like it's mommy's joband they're like job, what do
you mean job?
I thought your job was going tothe shopping mall and I was
like well, that is also my jobyears.

(39:38):
It was kind of stop and start,because I was like, well, do I
start a career?
Are we going to move?
Will I have to end my career assoon as I started?
So I would just kind of dothings that brought me joy,
which I really appreciate,having the ability and the
privilege to be able to do thatover the time that I was away.
Not everybody has that luxury,but it kind of gave me the space
to figure out stuff that Ireally love to do, and I was

(39:58):
volunteering, which I foundreally fulfilling.
And then when I came back hereI was like, well, how hard is it
going to be to bust back intoan industry that I haven't
traditionally been in in 10years?
And thankfully I had a friendwho was really motivated to get
me into her company and so I'vebeen working with her for two
years and it's just a smallcompany and we work remotely,

(40:20):
which, again, it's soappreciative to me to be able to
work remotely because I get tostill be here when I need to be
here for the boys, I get to beflexible and I get to, you know,
have that luxury of being ableto pick them up from school when
they need to, while still beingable to make meetings that I
need to, like.
I appreciate the wholebusinesses being allowing their

(40:41):
employees to go remote when theyneed to, because you know,
let's be honest, we don't allneed to be face to face.
We all zoom anyway half thetime.
So, yeah, um, and it's beeninteresting being back in in a
traditional like a work life orwork um environment over the
last two years, which is, youknow, even now I'm just kind of
resist.
How do I get back to craftingonly?

(41:01):
How do I get back to lunchingonly?
But, you know, more knittingprojects, more knitting projects
.
Well, I'm the crochet queen.
You insisted on knitting, whichI still don't understand.
But I'll turn you to the darkside soon.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Yeah, feel one needle wander.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, oh my God.
But the thing is, though, likewhen you work from home, I think
, do you find like you get socomfortable now that you work
from home that like meeting upin person is a thing?
You know what I mean, I think.
Do you feel like we've becomecomplacent because of technology
in that sense?

Speaker 2 (41:34):
you know, I don't think the technology.
Technology should be aboutefficiency, but it doesn't
replace the face-to-face.
So like again, I work with,like I'm on a team with three
other women.
We're kind of like I think I'mthe only one who doesn't go to
the office because it's a DonMills and Eglinton and I'm not
about that and not about thatcommute.

(41:57):
Our, I guess, customers, we'renonprofits, so our participants,
they're all entrepreneurs.
So if everything was in person,if I was meeting with everyone
in person, it would be alsoannoying for them too.
So it's like there's efficiency, it doesn't replace the face to
face.
We still get together from timeto time, we give opportunities.

(42:17):
I'm the community manager, so Ido a lot of events and stuff
like that, like farmer's market,for example, on the weekends.
But I find that there's a lotmore understanding around what
that looks like.
So I'll give an example.
I am a salaried employee.
I work 9 to 5, monday to Friday, technically on paper, but I
co-run a farmer's market.
That's on Saturdays.
It's like, okay, my husband nowworks on Saturdays, so I

(42:40):
dragged my kids to a farmer'smarket and my boss was there and
instead of it being like a canI bring my kids, like I'm
bringing my kids and, like youknow, she's literally playing,
connect four with them and like,again there's an opportunity
for there to be like anecosystem that includes the kids
.
I've also seen that like even inmy I'm sidetracking, but like
even in my friendships some ofsome of my friends who don't

(43:02):
have children I've seen them bebring the kids and it's really
nice because it's like it givesyou that family feeling where
it's not my kids aren't likesome dirty little side accessory
that I can like I don't knowyeah, no, and like sometimes you
have friends where it's like,especially if it's like drinking
friends or like partyingfriends.
You're like maybe I only see youwhen I don't have my children

(43:22):
but generally speaking, like asI'm getting older, I'm
prioritizing people and businessventures and opportunities that
kind of allow me to show up asmy whole self, including being a
mom, as opposed to situationswhere it's like you know you
work for corporate and thenthey're like, yeah, it's all
great, but you're going topretend like you don't have kids

(43:42):
or like friendships that areonly like the richness is only
the depth is only there because,like you don't have your kids
around you.
It's like there's got to bebalance there yeah, and I think
it is.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
It is really about being efficient.
Like I, I find that, since I'mable to work from home, I'm able
to, you know, get my workout in.
I'm able to take the kids toschool and make their lunch.
I'm not running around crazy,being like I have to get, like
on whatever ttc or drive throughtraffic for an hour to get to
my workplace.
Like that just takes so muchmore out of you.
I can give so much more to mywork when I am comfortable and

(44:16):
when I'm not tired or stressedout, and when I know that I have
an employer that has my back,knowing that, like I will still
get my work done.
Thank you, but you've affordedme the flexibility to do that.
So I mean, I think that it'sreally an old school thinking
that we all need to be in anoffice face-to-face all the time
.
Of course, it's good to gettogether with your team and,
like I said, we do get togethermy team as well occasionally but

(44:40):
the reality is, is that a lotof the work people?
You know we don't live all inone spot, so my clients are all
over North America and some inAmerica and some in the UK.
So it's like, what am Isupposed to do?
Fly out every week to meetpeople face to face, like when I
need to?
No, because, like that's notthe kind of job that I would be
able to hold with my familysituation.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
So I was gonna say, and like Nicole and I a little
bit different.
Like my husband stays local,Nicole's husband travels a lot,
but we both have partners whowork outside the house a lot.
So the fact of the matter islike someone has to be someone
needs to supervise the children.
I need to make sure my kids areeating more than ramen three

(45:21):
times a day and so it's nice tobe able to have a career because
they're like that's, that's alot of like you know, like.
And no, no disrespect to anyonewho wants to be a stay- Cause.
I'm like that's, that's a lotof like you know like.
And no, no disrespect to anyonewho wants to be a stay at home
mom or who can afford to be astay at home mom.
I think that's great too.
Like it's, it's fantastic.
Whatever works for you works foryou.
But I know, you know, for meit's like I need.

(45:41):
Motherhood is part of who I am,but it's not all of who I am,
and I wanted to make sure thatthere were still pieces of me
that existed outside of my kidsand there's room for, you know,
my passions and my learnings andthe things I like to do, like I
freelance, model and I, youknow, there's all these other
things that I want to do, that Ican do, that are outside of

(46:02):
motherhood, that I think again,enrich those experiences that I
can share with my kids.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
Yeah, it makes you a whole person that you're able to
then, like you, dial that downto your children and through
your parenting.
Like you know, you have to havea life outside of just your
home family life sometimes tomake keep yourself sane.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
So otherwise your kids are going to be 18 and
you're going to fall apart andyou're going to have your
existential crisis of like whoam I?
What am I because?
Why am I?
We are hyphenated beings, um,and we move through this world
with all of those differentthings and those different
titles, and motherhood's justone that gets added on and it's.
It's an intense one for 18years, but it never really goes

(46:42):
away and, at the same time, it'snot like the basis of who you
are as a person yeah, it'salways been just a part of me.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
It's never been me right, like it's something that
I elected to do for myself, likefor ourselves my husband and I.
But it's never been.
This is what I am now, you know.
And it's funny because, like,when you become a mom, a lot of
people want to put you into amom, mom role.
So, like when I, when I starteddoing writing, they're like,
well, you're going to be a momblogger and I was like, what's

(47:09):
that supposed to mean?
Because I mean, I I am by nomeans an expert on parenting.
Don't look at me for that.
Right, like I am, I have notraining.
So, like I'm not an expert, Iactually have a lot more
opinions on many, many otherthings other than just being a
mother.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
This is not the entirety of who I am, so so what
do you say to someone who is intheir 40s and they're
considering becoming a parentLike?
What is your advice?

Speaker 3 (47:35):
Like but you're old, no, no, I'm joking, you're tired
, don't do it, though.
I mean, everybody starts theirfamily when they feel like they
need to or, you know, whenthey're mentally right, yeah
yeah, and I mean I have friendsthat are definitely starting to
have babies now, or are havingtheir their second or third now,
and if that's the right forthem, then that's right for them

(47:56):
.
I think it comes with their ownchallenges, though, because I
mean, your body is not the sameas it was when you're much
younger.
You know, your level oftiredness is the same.
Your, your level of patience isnot necessarily the same.
And when?
When?
uh, at this stage, when we'restarting like like perimenopause
to start creeping in, yeah yeah, like sometimes I lose my damn

(48:17):
mind and I can't even imaginebeing pregnant losing my damn
mind or like you know, or likeyou know having a newborn and
losing a damn mind.
That's just personally for me.
But I say, you know, go for it.
If this is what you want, itdoesn't matter what age you are,
go for it, you'll be happy.
Be confident in your choice.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
I think people are really risk averse as they get
older.
So I think the only piece ofadvice I would give is like it's
never going to feel right,you're never going to feel ready
.
I mean, maybe some people are,but I've heard people be like
we're not ready, we're not inthe right house, we're not in
the right and I'm like neverwill be.
I don't know.
Like I ran a business and Iwill say running a business is
very similar to having kids, afamily like structurally it's

(48:57):
very, there's a, there's a lotof overlap there and it is your
baby in a way.
And you know when you don'tknow what you don't know.
When you walk in with a littlebit of ignorance, sometimes it
works in your advantage becauseyou're like I didn't know, no,
it's not me.
Then you find out reallyquickly like oh shit, you know.
Like.
I feel like if, if you, if youlike, really researched it, like

(49:21):
if you really like, know theins and outs, like you will
never know the ins and outs,because every kid is different,
every pregnancy is different,every like everything is
different.
My kids are a year apart and Ican't think of two more
different kids.
The other thing too is likeyour parenting style, like my
parenting style.
What is your parenting style?
Oh god, helicopter mom no.

(49:44):
I would consider myself afree-range parent.
I kind of observe what they'redoing and like make edits as I
need to, as opposed to I try notto like there's some proactive
pieces of parenting and thenthere's some reactive, and then
there's just sort of likeobserving, because a lot of it
is like if I'm like careful,careful, be careful, it's like

(50:07):
that's not helpful.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
Oh my God, I have to say we were at a park this is I
was visiting in from China, orno, from the UK I think and her
Marie's eldest was just, let'ssay, two, and I remember she was
up on this jungle gym, like atthe top, and I'm looking at her
and I'm looking at Marie and I'mlike, should she be up there?
Marie's like yeah, it's fine,she likes to climb.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
I'm like okay, like that's cool, right.
Meanwhile, like so many othermoms would be like underneath
them, being like, oh my god,they're like, be careful, hold
on part of it is like it's.
That particular kid is like shehad a lot of confidence and the
last thing I want to do isproject my insecurity and fears
of her inability to do somethingonto her.
Sometimes I'll be like you youfeeling safe up there, you
feeling good?
Yeah, I'm feeling good.
Okay, do you have a plan on howto get it down?
Like asking questions like thatinstead of just being like

(50:54):
careful, careful Now, myyoungest would never dream of
doing that.
She'd get up on one step andthen just be like mom, I can't
get down.
And so it's like you have tokind of adjust, which is hard

(51:17):
when they're both kind of in thesame stages but they have very
different needs.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
So a lot of it's like you kind of have to split
yourself in half and be like oh,gotta be here and here, you
know yeah, and I've mentioned toyou how, like you know, there's
so many different parentingplaybooks out there about how to
raise kids and like, yeah, sure, some of them work, um, they
don't work in entirely, some ofthem don't work.
Like it's just, you can takebits and pieces of everything,
but there's never going to be awhole plan on how to raise a

(51:44):
child, because at any given time, I cause my children, children,
trauma, and I know that I'mjust like, whatever I do, you'll
be in therapy because ofsomething we've done 100%.
I'm past the point of you know.
I'm like yes, you're not,you're okay.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
Awareness is a battle , though you know like knowing
we're going to mess them upsomewhere.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
What about the school system?
Right?
I mean, I don't know.
I think, with technology, we'reliving in a different time.

(52:32):
So I think, like you said to me, Nicole, you do the best you
can, and I think the one thing Iread, too, is is no right way
to parents.
Even if you have theinformation, there will be
something that contradicts thatarticle in another article, or
one parent will say this, andthen you know.

Speaker 3 (52:41):
So it makes it really I feel like the only difference
between a parent who's just outthere parenting and like a
person like who is a parentingexpert, is that like someone
took all of their stumbles andfalls and put them into a book
and the other people didn'tright, instead I pour, I pour
all my stumbles and falls intomurray right and be like I

(53:03):
fucked up, and that's it.
Nobody.
Nobody knows what, necessarilywhat they're doing, because
every child is so different andyou have to parent them in
completely different ways.
Um, sometimes and my way won'twork the same for my boys as it
would if I was trying to parentmarie's kids and vice versa-
like you know, you do haveevidence of what a child, like
you've experienced yourchildhood.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
So you do have evidence of things that, like
you, have an idea of what, whatworked and what didn't work.
And I think this is where, likeyou, get into like stage mom
situations or people who are,like projecting under their
children.
It's like they are differentthan you, yeah, but you do have
the opportunity to sort of sharewith them things that you
enjoyed and, if they take to it,run.

(53:43):
If they don't take to it, keeplooking, keep working with them,
listen to what they.
Like.
I think kids are a lot smarterthan we give them credit for.
Like I, I went to Montessorischool when I was really really
small and I always, I alwaysjoked that like Montessori is
like supervised neglect.
You know, you're basically likehere's a stepstool, do it for
yourself, and that's I mean.
Like you know, come for me.

(54:05):
But that's basically what it isright, it's not a bad thing,
but it's about teaching themself-sufficiency.
You mentioned helicopterparenting.
To me, again, that's like it'sclipping their wings, it's like
stopping them from being able tosee what the limits of their
own possibilities are withoutyou.
My job is to encourage them tobecome themselves.
It's not for me to doeverything for them.
Of course, if they need help,I'm here.

(54:25):
But even the act of learninghow to ask for help, which is
something a lot of us, even asparents, we have to learn I know
I had to learn that as an adultit's like how do I ask for help
without feeling like I'm notcapable?
It's like it's okay, we can dothat, but then we have to teach
our kids how to do that stuff,how to function in society and
community.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
Yeah, and I grew up with like I grew up my
grandmother raised me and shewas fairly hands off.
I kind of feel like she waslike, well, I screwed up five
other kids, so this one I'm justgoing to do whatever with.
And I came along and I was likeyou know, got good marks and
was in sports and she was likeshe, she, she parented me, but
barely Cause she, just she, justlet me do whatever, because I

(55:05):
was always just kind of likethat kid that always did well in
whatever.
And you know my kids they'renot quite that and my husband is
like tiger parenting, so it'slike in his background, tiger
parenting.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
I want to know what that is.

Speaker 3 (55:22):
Oh, basically it's this like generational trauma
that pours in from specificallyimmigrant families who you know.
Generational trauma that poursin from specifically immigrant
families who, you know,struggled so hard to get to
where they are now, to give youthe best of life.
So now you have to excel ateverything and not just excel
but be the best, like be themost excellent of everyone.

(55:43):
So you know you're getting an A.
Why didn't you get an A plusright, Like that, that whole
mentality.
And my husband grew up in thatkind of environment where he was
expected to.
You know, he didn't get toys,he got calculus books for
Christmas, Like that's just,that's true.
So, and he kind of feels like,you know, if your kids aren't

(56:05):
getting things like A's inschool or they aren't like
passing every you know swim teston the first try, then he's
like, well, what have we donewith your life?
What are you doing with yourlife?
Meanwhile, I'm just kind oflike, you know, people have to
be given the opportunities tofail.
People have to be given theopportunities to find where
their strengths lie, and itdoesn't always lie in what you

(56:26):
would hope for them, right?
So him and I, we have this kindof um, interesting balance of
parenting styles that we wesometimes butt heads over it and
it just comes from again, likehow we were raised right.
So we're trying our best andhopefully our kids will try
their best.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
That's all we can hope for, so, yeah, hearing you
talk about your husband, I canrelate, because I had those
tiger parents and I think whenyou have parents like that, it
does traumatize you to the pointwhere you're like I got the a,
now you want the a plus.
And even when I got the a plus,you're, you want a plus plus.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
So yeah, my dad was a bit of a tiger parent and he
was also a teacher and soacademia was extremely important
for him and it's it's whatpulled him out of poverty.
Right, it was, his key tosuccess was through academia.
So I think part of it growingup is also empathizing with your
parents in a way where you'relike, oh shit, I get how that

(57:22):
got twisted that way and I gethow that got manifested that way
.
I didn't love it at the time,didn't love spending my summers
doing like math and Frenchhomework.
But like I understand where itcame from.
And there are.
There are those.
There are pieces of mychildhood I want to replicate
with my kids.
But at the same time I'm likeacademia is just one way of
evaluating intelligence and Ijust don't want to get lost in

(57:44):
the sauce of like somehow agrade two teacher's opinion on
my kids, like reading andwriting, is like the be all end
all, because age and aptitudeand all that stuff.
It takes everyone their ownlittle time to get there right.
Like I struggled hard as a kid,like as a young kid, and I mean
I moved provinces.

(58:04):
I moved from New Brunswick toOntario.
I barely spoke any English whenI came to this province, I
certainly didn't feelcomfortable in it and I barely
spoke any English.
When I came to this province, Icertainly didn't feel
comfortable in it and I went toa French school.
So I didn't learn how to readand write in English until like
grade seven and eight, like Iwas a really, really late late
at the party Right.
And so high school got a littlebit better, college got a
little bit better, universitygot into the honor roll.

(58:25):
Like as I progressed it goteasier for me.
So I remember like mytrajectory wasn't always this
like perfect academic record andI was definitely like looked
upon as like why aren't yougetting there?
And it's like I'm just.
I have a little bit of thatgrace for my own kids who are
also going through their ownjourney of academia and we're

(58:45):
making changes and we're, youknow, but recognizing that like
this is not the only measurementof intelligence that's out
there and they still have abright future, even if they're
not like or success in your kids, like yeah, the be all and end
all exactly

Speaker 4 (59:00):
exactly diva tonight with carlene.
We'll be back.
Send us a message on Instagramat diva underscore tonight.