September 3, 2025 • 42 mins
Dr. Julie Pham shares her decade-long experience with "living apart together" (LAT), a relationship arrangement where committed partners maintain separate homes. She reveals how this unconventional approach has deepened appreciation, improved communication, and allowed both partners to bring their best selves to the relationship.
• LAT relationships affect approximately 3% of married couples who choose to maintain separate residences
• Being in a good relationship and being good roommates are two different skills that don't always overlap
• Seeing each other once weekly while living 1.5 miles apart creates intentional, quality time together
• Saying "I'm grateful for you" instead of "I love you" addresses the core need to feel appreciated
• Setting clear boundaries helps prevent resentment in both personal and professional relationships
• Turning 40 brings clarity, confidence and the ability to be unapologetic about personal needs
• The "rubber band rule" teaches awareness of how far we can stretch before breaking
• Multiple truths can coexist, creating space for different perspectives and experiences
• Starting her company CuriosityBase at 41 demonstrates it's never too late to follow your calling
• Embracing aging rather than hiding from it creates freedom and authenticity
If you're curious about different relationship models or want to learn more about Curiosity Base and the seven forms of respect, follow Dr. Julie Pham's work and consider how boundaries might transform your own relationships.
If you want to connect with Julie on social media you can at
www.instagram.com/curiousitybased
https://curiositybased.com/about-us/
If you would like to have Julie on your show you can connect with her on PODMATCH! www.podmatch.com
I want to thank Julie for sharing her journey on love on Diva Tonight! It's been a great experience!
Thanks for listening to Diva Tonight! Please send a review of the show on https://divatonight.buzzsprout.com
- I want to thank my Podcast Editor Sean McAndrew!
- Thanks to Altered by Mom for sponsoring the music for the show
- Thanks to Colin Campbell for sponsoring the show!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva Tonight.
Today we're celebrating thepower of being a woman at 40 and
also all the complexities andnuances that come with different
relationships.
I have with me Dr Julie Pham,an expert in relationships.
When it comes to the workenvironment, she has a company
(00:25):
called.
Remind me again, it's yeah, andso we're not really going to be
talking too much about yourcareer.
I mean, we will, but I thinkit's very interesting that you
are sharing your relationshipand how you have something that
isn't like.
You're in a relationship thatisn't conventional in the sense
(00:46):
where you're not married, butyou guys are living together,
apart, I guess that's the term.
Living apart, together, livingapart together.
Yes, this is new for me too,and I think it's very
interesting that you're in thiskind of relationship and this is
your first time talking aboutit in a public setting.
So thank you, carleen.
I just feel that your audience.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I just want to spread that this is an option, because
so many people think thatyou're supposed to live together
and then get married.
And you don't have to do either.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Especially, you don't actually have to live together
because I do think that being ina good relationship and being
good roommates are two differentthings yeah, because I mean you
could be in a relationship tooand it's it's like you're not
living together, they're livingtogether, but you're you've
grown apart.
So it's kind of like you'reliving with your roommate, like
everything goes down downtogether for granted.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
You actually don't talk that much and you're just
kind of at the end of the dayyou're like, well, we're
together and you're justwatching TV or whatever, and you
barely see each other, eventhough you're technically living
together.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, yeah.
So can you tell me about thislifestyle, like your choice to
do so, living apart, together?
For those who don't get whatthat is, I mean, it's
self-explanatory, but you know.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
It's probably not.
I have to tell you, I actuallyhad to look up the I know that
there was a term, a back term,because I was doing this before
80s really became something thatpeople started writing about,
and I actually just looked upthe stuff that I guess about 3%
of married couples actually dothis now, and so what it means
is that you are together in ahealthy relationship and yet you
(02:27):
decide to live in separateplaces.
So I'm not talking about inseparate bedrooms, I'm talking
about in separate homes, and sobecause I know that there are
the couples that they may justhave their separate bedrooms,
and so my partner and I havebeen together for almost 11
years and in the beginning, whenwe started dating, we did think
, oh, we will eventually livetogether.
(02:48):
And he's got, he's a single dadand he has full custody of his
kids, and when he got his kidsthey were they were nine and 13.
And so I was just like, oh, thisis, I'm not going to live with
you.
And because I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be the
(03:10):
default babysitter, and we alsohave really separate
expectations, so I'll get toabout that.
But so that played one factorin it.
But after a while we're likethis is actually really good.
And even when because now hiskids are his kids are both
adults and and one's about toleave, which is we'll probably
not live together unless wecan't afford to or we can't
afford to live separatehouseholds we actually see this
as something that is really goodin our relationship.
(03:32):
So living apart together isjust you you are in a
relationship and yet you chooseto live separately.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, and so how is the setup?
I think that's the one thingthat some people would question,
like, how do you handle day today logistics, like when do you
guys see each other?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Do you see each other every other weekend, or do you
plan your visits like thatalways on Saturday, and so even
for married couples who livetogether or people with kids
it's just they.
Still it's a good practice tohave a date night so that you
can set aside a day where hey,this is, this is on our calendar
(04:11):
.
Otherwise people, even when youlive together, you might think,
oh well, we don't have to dothat and it's like, actually I
think it is important to toprioritize it and to make it a
special day.
So for us, we see each otheronce a week in person and then
we talk every night.
And actually we have alwayslived within 10 miles of each
(04:32):
other, so we are livingseparately, but it's not
actually not that far, andactually where he is right now
he's living a mile and a halfaway from me.
I can walk there, okay so it'snot too far.
Okay, it's not too far, but youknow, there are also, I know,
couples who they live indifferent States, and so I have
a friend where she's in Seattleand her husband's in Nashville,
and so she'll go out everycouple of weeks, and so it
(04:55):
depends on how far away that youare from each other.
That depends on how often thatyou see each other.
I think an important part ofthis is that you have other ways
of communicating, and so thething about living apart
together means you understandthat we don't have to be in
person to communicate, and,carly, don't you think?
The pandemic taught us that too?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yes, it did it did.
You know what I mean?
It taught us a lot, Actuallyit's funny that you talk about
that.
During the pandemic, the guy Iwas seeing at the time I haven't
even talked about this in openform, but he was literally a
one-minute walk Like he was myneighbor next door, Didn't live
any closer than that and he wasway younger than me oh, my
(05:40):
goodness, 15 years younger andit was.
Yeah, the pandemic taught me alot, for sure yeah, a long
distance relationship?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
it's not like that, but it's in permanent state yeah
, it's.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I think it's harder when it's long distance, I mean,
especially when you don't getto see them as often as you want
, and I think it might it would.
It would be easier if you, if Imet the person in the beginning
and then maybe it was longdistance or something, but I
think even in the beginning, Ijust think it's challenging to
do long distance, I mean in your, in your situation.
(06:17):
Do you think, because you liveapart, that you could do long
distance because you've gottenused to that?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I mean yes, and I've actually, in my, in my twenties,
my first serious relationship.
We started long distancetogether for two and a half
years and we were in differentcountries.
And so I actually think thatthe the thing about long
distance is it forces people tocommunicate in different ways,
and that was in the, that was inthe two thousands where we
didn't have, I mean, videoconferencing, was not there yet,
(06:46):
and I mean I was living inVietnam and we'd have these
calling cards where it'd be 30cents a minute, 35 cents a
minute.
That was a very expensive call.
So actually we did a lot ofemailing and when I lived in
Vietnam, home internet wasreally difficult at the time, so
I'd have to go to theseinternet cafes and we'd write
letters.
And so my point being, Iactually think in any
(07:07):
relationship going long distance, even if just for a month or
two months, it forces people tocommunicate in a different way
and not just to rely on the easeof being together and just
unspoken proximity, and it'sjust actually we have to
articulate how we feel andwhat's happening in our lives in
a way that helps people feelthat we are still together even
(07:27):
though we're apart, which Ithink is what we did during the
pandemic Right Fast forward.
We were all learning how to dothat, and so so there's long
distance, which is temporaryusually, or for some people,
that's a permanent state withthe.
Living apart together, that ishey, we've made a conscious
decision to do that.
Being apart together, that ishey, we've made a conscious
decision to do that.
And it's also the like I saidearlier, being a good roommate
(07:52):
and being a good partner are twodifferent things and in a way,
when we are together, it's likehey, let's actually, let's bring
our best selves, not ourleftover selves.
Because sometimes what happensis when we are together, all
live together ourselves.
Because sometimes what happensis when we are together, all
live together, and it's justlike you get home and you're
tired and you bring and you were, you had to be cheery at work
with your friends and you bringyour, you give your leftovers to
(08:13):
the people at home.
Yeah, it's hard, it's hardRight and like and so with me
and my partner, it's like okay,no, we are.
We want to bring our bestselves when we're together, and
that just means our more, say,optimistic selves, our more open
selves.
It's not pretending to bedifferent, it's just more of
like.
You know what I really want tobe present with you right now.
The time that we have togetheris precious, and it's thinking
(08:35):
more about that as the qualityof the time versus the quantity
of the time.
Yeah so where did you guys meet?
We actually met throughvolunteering and so, carlene, I
did not do this online datingstuff either, so I've never
actually Right, and actuallyneither of us have ever done
online dating.
(08:55):
And I gave him a Valentine cardone year that said you saved me
from online dating, and Iactually asked him out.
That was a joke we have where Iwas the one who asked him out.
I like to tease him if I didn'task you out.
And so I will say, like I saidearlier, we didn't expect this.
In the beginning, I think we hadthis both, this conventional
(09:17):
idea of yes, eventually we'lllive together, and a lot of my
friends thought we weren'tserious.
Are you guys serious?
Because we don't have anyintention of living together.
And friends were just are youguys serious?
Like, are you in a committedrelationship if that's not the
destination you are movingtoward?
And then I think it was maybesix it had to be five, six years
(09:40):
in where our friends were like,oh yeah, you are serious.
And now we've been together forover a decade and people realize
, oh, this is just another wayto be together.
And so you know, for yourlisteners, sometimes people have
, they're having real issues intheir relationship.
And I say try just livingseparately, because you'll have
(10:03):
a different relationship witheach other when you're not
having to clean up after eachother, having those, all those
resentments that you get.
That is from a life together.
And and if you still can't makethat work, then okay, but at
least try that, because maybeyou're conflating living
together with being a goodpartner and being in a healthy
relationship.
And I will also say you do haveto make the decision.
(10:25):
People have to make thedecision of having separate
households, and so this could bea pro or con, because some
people like to combine all their, their resources so they can
have more.
Yeah, like because I want thisand I want this, I want this,
yeah.
And so for us I mean we bothwhat also really helps is we
both live very simply, we bothhave small places, we both don't
(10:45):
like to have a lot of stuff,and so we don't need to have all
that space, you guys, in termsof living apart, so you pay your
own bills and he pays his yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Do you guys do anything together in terms of
like finances, like when you goaway together?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, so when we go away, we usually have this okay,
you pay for this part and Ihave to pay for this part.
So we don't do this wholesplitting down the middle or the
yeah, it's, we don't use thoseapps or something like that.
It's more of yeah, hey, I'llpay for the lodging and then you
pay for this part and and.
And even when we have, when wego over to friends or we do a
(11:25):
date night, we'll take turnspaying, or if it's, if it's my
friends, we're going into myfriends or we're doing something
with my friends, then I pay.
And if it's his friends, and hepays.
So even if it's a potluck, ifit's my friend, I will pay.
If, even if it's more my friendthan your friend, I will, I
will cover that.
So, yeah, but we don't, wedon't do the whole calculation
(11:48):
thing, but that's also just.
I know some couples are finewith that and we're just the
ease, it's it all.
It all washes out.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
When you tell people, though, like I mean, you
mentioned briefly that yourfriends didn't take the
relationship seriously, but whenyou, when you talk about it, I
don't know who you talk about itwith.
When you, when you talk aboutit, I don't know who you talk
about it with Do you, do youface judgment?
Like, do people judge judgmentsor assumptions from other
people?
Don't live this way, becauseit's not it's still not
(12:17):
conventional and it's like kindof like.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I think there's surprise and then there's
curiosity oh, how does that?
How does that work?
And do you, do you intend tolive together?
And then, depending on forfriends who have been in
relationships who are divorced,it's like, huh, maybe I would
like that, and I think,especially for women, if you can
afford to have your ownhousehold.
(12:40):
And when I tell my friends this, they're like wait a minute,
yeah, I do like my space, I dolike my things.
Why would I go and live withsomeone?
Because for many women, evenwhen you have a partner, if you
have a male partner who's reallyprogressive and likes to share
things, somehow a lot of thehousehold duties and the
(13:04):
emotional labor of the householdsomehow still falls to women.
It's just kind of a defaultright, and so I think, and then
those subtle little resentmentsdo build up.
I mean, I think for many womenor I'll just speak for myself.
That's the way I was conditioned.
I have two younger brothers.
I've lived with them as anadult and somehow I found myself
(13:26):
picking up after them, eventhough they are adults too.
So this is a way to actually toto have your relationship focus
on what you enjoy doingtogether and not not being a
roommate.
Another thing that I'll saythat's a bit different from our
relationship is, early on, Isaid I don't want to say I love
you, and instead, because for methat what I really wanted in a
(13:50):
relationship, what I felt wasmissing from earlier
relationships, was I felt I wastaken for granted, and so what's
so important for me in arelationship is gratitude, and
so actually, instead of saying Ilove you, what we say to each
other is we say I'm grateful,I'm grateful for you, and that's
our way of saying I love you.
Wow, so you have it and it'sand it's constantly quote
(14:11):
reminder I mean we, you know, Idon't, I'm I really I'm kind of
confused, yeah yeah.
So you know how people say Ilove you, I love you, I love you
, right.
And so for me, love is like ohwell, that's a big, that's big
word.
And yet, at the core of what,like, the most important thing
in a, in a relationship, for me,is that I feel that that person
(14:35):
appreciates me and they don'ttake me for granted, right, and
they can love me and they cangive me roses and they can tell
me how beautiful I am.
But what I actually want toknow is that they appreciate me,
and so I told my partner reallyearly on I don't ever want to
be taken for granted, and soinstead of saying I love you,
which feels more kind of generic, we have chosen to say our way
(14:57):
of saying I love you is sayingI'm grateful for you.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So you have not said I love you.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Oh, no, we have said that, but it's just not our, but
our way of saying is that whatyou're saying?
No, it's more of like asubstitute.
Instead of saying I love you,we say I'm grateful, Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And you feel that that makes the relationship more
complete in that way, or youfeel like that.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It reminds us of what's really important.
What do we prioritize?
And what we prioritize issaying I appreciate you, I don't
take you for granted.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I see the effort you put into this relationship and
what has made you decide thatthis is the way you want your
relationships?
Is it from previousrelationships where you felt
that?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
yeah, previous relationships definitely feeling
taken for granted and andthat's why when I got to this
relationship, it was just I andwe entered this relationship
when I was in my mid-30s andit's like I want this
relationship.
I've learned from otherrelationships and what I want in
this relationship is to feelappreciated, and I want also my
(16:02):
partner feel to feel appreciatedand to be a little more
specific than just love, becauselove is really big and broad.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, no, it is.
It is and I think I think,especially if you I don't know
how your family was growing up,but I find the one thing about
like immigrant or caribbeanfamilies like I'm from the
caribbean, like my parentsdidn't my mom would say I love
you a lot and so it was neverdone that, and so like you don't
(16:29):
grow up with that, and so whenyou're in a relationship and the
person says I love you or thatfeeling, it's different.
It takes time to understandwhat that actually means.
Like you know what I mean, whenyou love someone you're willing
to do anything for them.
And so when you don't have thatbase to work with, or like you
don't have that own experience,I think it changes like your
(16:51):
outlook on what you're expected,what you expect in a
relationship to begin with.
Right, so, totally different.
But you know the series.
The show is focused also on 40and like at 40.
So now that you're you've beentogether, for you said 11 years,
almost 11 years.
And now that you've beentogether for you said 11 years,
(17:11):
almost 11 years.
And now that you are 40, whathas surprised you most about
this stage of life?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
That it gets better, that I didn't expect to have so
much clarity, I didn't expect tohave so much more confidence at
this age, and, at the same time, there's still times where I'm
seized with insecurities as well, so I don't want to say no.
I do feel a lot moreunapologetic about what matters
(17:36):
to me and just saying no, I'mnot going to go to that, you can
do that, it's okay, I don'tneed to go, or I don't need to
do that thing, or I don't wantto do that thing.
This is what I value instead,and I really I think that
experience has taught me that,because experience has taught me
I don't want to be resentful,and the way I avoid being
resentful is by being clear inwhat I want and what I don't
(18:00):
want, and also, though, that Ican still learn and discover new
things about myself too.
So that is that I can discoverthat I can continue, that I can
continue to learn.
I mean, for a while, I tookadult break dancing classes.
I will never be good at dancing, and yet there's still
something so much fun about it,and so just there's a freedom in
(18:23):
.
Not everything has to besomething that I eventually
excel in, because there's manythings I have not excelled in,
and there's something fun aboutjust learning.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Okay, that's good.
I think for sure at this, atthis stage, I feel that too,
like we're, like you said, notbeing apologetic anymore, like
being okay with the mistakesthat you make and being okay
with who you are and beingcomfortable with you know,
before I would be like, if I'mlistening to music while I'm
walking and if I feel like youknow dancing to the music, I'd
(18:51):
be like, oh, other people aregonna think I'm crazy or strange
, but now the stage, I'm like Idon't really care.
So, um, I think it's.
It's more or less.
You're not as self-consciousabout everything, but just
accepting yourself, of course,but yeah, so how would you
describe the difference betweenhow you approach your
relationships in your twentiesand now?
Oh, gosh.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So wait, are you talking about all relationships
or romantic relationships?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Um, I guess romantic relationships yeah, and you can
elaborate too with friendships.
I think it encompasses allthings, I guess, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's setting boundaries
and saying and not feeling thatI should do something.
So even the word should, Ireally try not to use the word
should.
So, going back to early on,when my partner got his kids,
just establishing it, I'm astepmom, I'm not going to be a
babysitter, I am their dad'spartner, and now we have as the
(19:51):
kids are now adults we have areally good relationship, but it
wasn't always we had to earnthat, and so I think that being
clear about what I need issomething in all relationships
that I've learned to apply, andI also I don't get FOMO.
There's that fear of missingout.
I think they call it joy ofmissing out.
(20:13):
Right, if you want to go, dothat, that's cool.
There's actually somethingliberating about saying no,
that's okay and I'm not.
And let me offer something elseand not worrying about is that
going to hurt the person?
Is that going to hurt theirrelationship?
Because now I think more aboutif we are truly friends, then
(20:42):
you don't want me to dosomething that I don't want to
do either.
And then, Carlene, anotherthing is just really thinking
about the friendships and thepeople who I want in my life and
understanding that it takeswork.
I think some people think, oh,friends should just come to me,
and I'm recognizing at thisstage we're all really busy and
(21:07):
so sometimes I do have to put ina little more effort,
especially with my friends whohave kids, who have other other
really time consumingresponsibilities and I'm OK with
that too really time-consumingresponsibilities, and I'm okay
with that too.
So, yes, I'd say that settingboundaries, but also
understanding that differentpeople have different needs and
sometimes we do have to givemore if we want to have that
person in our life and to acceptthat they've got things going
on too.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Diva Tonight glamour for your ears.
This is 40, a femaleperspective perspective no,
you're right.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Um, sure, I think especially time is so important
and, like you, have to make timefor everyone.
Like you know, and sometimes Iguess, what we can, what I can
say based on your experiencesthat, since you live apart with
your partner, that it allows youto devote time to other things
too, like other people, and youknow your friends, family,
(21:55):
colleagues, whatever and yourbusiness right, because I mean
there's more to you than yourrelationship.
You have a career as well, andyour background isn't.
You have a phd and as well,right, so it says a lot about
you as a person and like yourachievements in life.
But what are you most proud ofat this stage in your life?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I don't know if it's the.
I'll say something that I'mvery proud of.
I don't know if it's the mostthe thing that I'm most proud of
.
I'm really proud of starting myown company.
I did that.
I think I was probably 41 or 42when I did that and I just
curiosity-based.
I love my and actually I'mproud that I was an employer
from the get-go.
So a lot of people they'llstart their company and they're
(22:36):
a solopreneur and from theget-go.
It's just.
I don't want to build thiscompany alone.
I actually left the best job Iever had.
I was working in a nonprofitand I had some interns there and
they were going to lose theirinternships if once I left to
start my own company.
So I actually took them with meand I used my savings and I
paid for their their firstsalary out of my savings because
(22:57):
I was like I want to build thiscompany with other people and
so I'm proud of my small andscrappy team and what we're
doing to help spread curiosityin the world and just bit by bit
, just the the impact that we'rehaving yeah, no, that's amazing
and I think, well, I mean interms of your company and what
you do.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I think a lot of it, from what I've read briefly, is
that curiosity basically helpothers, like set boundaries.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
And there's seven, there's seven, yeah, the seven
forms of yeah, there's the sevensteps, but also just getting
curious.
And how do we get curious aboutourselves?
Practice inward curiosity.
How do we get curious withother people?
Workplaces have the opportunityto be learning organizations,
because learning doesn't stop atschool, and so that's what we
(23:44):
really try to do Work withemployers to create these
cultures of continual learningwhere people feel safe to ask
questions.
They feel safe to say I don'tknow.
And how do we learn from oneanother, versus just getting
training?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Right, I think that's a different concept.
So what gave you the idea tostart your own company?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, yeah, and so I'll tell you.
Some people say they followyour passion.
Yeah, and so I'll tell you.
Some people say they followyour passion.
I actually think I wasanswering a calling.
I felt called to do this work.
I at the time I was working asan executive at a nonprofit and
probably it was the best job Iever had and the only reason I
would leave the best job I everhad.
Wow, I love writing.
I think at my core, I'm awriter and I have these ideas
(24:30):
that I want to share and Iwanted to share it under my name
, and I could not do that as anemployee.
So I actually had to start totake the risk and to start my
own company.
And I did that in the middle ofthe pandemic because I felt,
wow, I think that the work, whatI'm writing, can actually help
people beyond the audience atthe nonprofit that I was working
at and I just want to.
I want to try.
(24:52):
I felt called to to do thatwork.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
No, I think it's great what you're doing, because
there's so many things that weare supposed to do in life and
if you find your calling, not alot of people say that it's
their calling.
Like, I think, the other personI spoke to I remember when I
was visiting a family member inthe hospital and the nurse said
to me this is a calling.
You know, I've decided thatthis is my life's work because
(25:18):
it's a calling Like she's.
Like I spend 12 hours a dayhere working as a nurse and I
lose a lot of time with my childand my family, and so this is
not just for anybody.
You know what I mean.
So when you're doing somethinglike that, that means that
you've devoted your life to it.
So obviously it meant somethingfor you to start the company
(25:41):
CuriosityBase, which is cool.
It's so cool that you do that.
So where did you go to school?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
For my undergrad I went to Berkeley and for my grad
school I went to Cambridge inthe UK.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
In the UK.
Okay, so that was when you wereasking about that.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
And so do you feel like youreducation has led you to where
you are now, because, I mean,obviously you were working for a
company that you enjoyedworking for, right.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, I'm trained as a historian and I don't do
historical research.
Now, I mean, actually, my PhDis in intellectual modern
Southeast Asian history, andthat is not what I do.
My dissertation was a biographyof a South Vietnamese communist
revolutionary, and that is notwhat I do.
My dissertation was a biographyof a South Vietnamese communist
revolutionary, and that is notwhat I do, carleen.
The work, though, of ahistorian is it's about
(26:30):
perspective taking and aboutuncovering the stories, and that
is so central to the work thatI do now, because, for us to
practice curiosity, we have to.
We have to be open to differentpossibilities, and so you have,
you may, and I truly believethat multiple truths can coexist
, and so, instead of trying tofight over what is true, let's
(26:52):
actually understand why yourtruth is the way it is, and I'll
just give you an example.
I'm a Vietnamese refugee.
That's a really important partof my identity.
I'm a South Vietnamese refugee.
My parents and I left communistVietnam, and so we just had
April 30th and the 50thanniversary of the end of what's
called the Vietnam War, and soin the US, they call that the
(27:13):
fall of Saigon.
In communist Vietnam, they callthat April 30th, liberation Day
, when the North liberated theSouth, and for the South
Vietnamese community that Ibelong to, we call that the day
we lost our country and allthree are true Fall of Saigon,
liberation Day, the day we lostour country.
For me, I'm really interestedin why is that?
(27:35):
What's your story let's talkabout?
What does it mean for it to beLiberation Day, what does it
mean for it to be the day welost our country?
And so that's central to mywork now to help people embrace
that, to be open to differentpossibilities.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, there's different possibilities in every
.
I think, in a way, when youtalk about that, the fact that
you studied history, history, isimportant for everything the
history of the company, thehistory, how we got here because
I always say, it's not whereyou're going, it's where you
came from.
And if, if, because of yourhistory, if it helped you form
(28:10):
the person that you are today,help me form your identity, and
so it's kind of like you're ateacher in a in a way, but in a
different platform.
And I think even for me, likeyou said, we, we it's it's our
passion or our calling Right,and so for me, like you said, we
, it's it's our passion or ourcalling right, and so for me, I
think it was my, I realized whatmy passion was really late and
having that clarity.
That's what you said earlierabout being clear about who you
(28:33):
are, and I think that's theimportant thing.
So you, you're not practicingwhat you studied in school, but
in some shape or form it hashelped you with what you do now,
like your career, your businessand your identity Right, and so
I think it's changed youridentity.
Obviously, it's still a part ofwho you are.
(28:53):
Do you feel like all threethings like are true.
Like you lost, they lost yourcountry.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Say that Right, I right I mean, well, that's
that's when people are, I mean,as political refugees, that's,
we're fleeing, yeah, communism,and so that's.
Then it feels like the countrywe lost and and and and all and
all of them are.
All of those different names aretrue, and so for me it's more
about the process of learningthan it is actually about the
(29:22):
final label, and that informshow we work now, because even we
all have even our own littlestories, our experiences that
lead us to who we are today, andso there's one of the stories
that make up a nation and one ofthe stories that just make up
me and who I am.
And so how do we go back intime?
I can't remember the name ofthe book, but there's this one
(29:44):
book about storytelling, and itsays that people who are able to
know their personal history,kids who are able to know their
personal history, are actuallymuch more resilient in life.
And then the author then wenton and did a study for
organizations and they found outthat employees who know the
story of their, of the ups anddowns of their company, their
(30:05):
employer, actually are much moreengaged in the work.
And so I think knowing ourpersonal history is makes us
healthier and makes us moreengaged.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
For sure.
Yeah, I think knowing is halfthe battle, right, and
understanding too.
And so, in terms of likeorganizations that you work with
, right, how do you help them interms of like?
Is it boundary setting to beginwith, because you said it's
curiosity based, but do you help, I guess, if you elaborate?
How do you help?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, yeah, and so yes, and actually I'm wondering
if I.
So one of the things that we doworkshops on is called the
seven forms of respect, and soI'll just say there that a lot
of people it's about how respectis relative, it's objective,
dynamic and also contradictory.
And it's contradictory becausewe as humans are contradictory,
(30:56):
and so it's actually helpingemployers move away from right
or wrong respect versusdisrespect to huh, how do we,
instead of saying how do we bemore respectful, how do we get,
how do we talk about what doesrespect mean here in our
organization?
And then the other part of thatis in terms of the boundary
setting.
When people talk about respect,they often talk about the
golden rule Treat people the wayyou want to be treated.
(31:18):
Now, the thing about the goldenrule is what if they don't want
to be treated the way you wantto be treated treated?
Now, the thing about the goldenrule is what if they don't want
to be treated the way you wantto be treated?
What if they don't want to betreated the way you want to be
treated?
So I have what I call therubber band rule and I teach
people this.
The rubber band rule is and Inormally have a rubber band, but
the rubber band rule is we areable to stretch.
So, carleen, maybe you'd liketo be treated a for people, and
sometimes, though, we'restretching a lot, and it's
(31:45):
really uncomfortable, and whatcan happen is, if I wanna show
respect, but I don't feel trueto myself and I'm stretching and
stretching, and stretching, Ican snap and break, and so, with
the rubber band rule is aboutknowing what are my internal
breaking points, what's gonnamake me snap, and that's
actually about self-awarenessand it's about self-respect, and
so I teach that a lot, too, togive people this mental model oh
(32:08):
, am I stretching?
Oh, and, because everyone'srubber band is different, and
also your rubber band could bedifferent at work and home, I'm
a lot more stretchy at home thanI'm at work.
Like, I'm much better atboundary setting at work than I
am at home, and that could bedifferent for different people,
I mean.
So, carleen, I invite you tothink about that.
Are you more stretchy at workor at home?
And I invite your listeners tothink about that too.
(32:30):
And am I actually?
Am I snapping, am I breaking?
And is that because I haven'ttold people that I don't want to
do this?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I feel like you're right.
I think a lot of us are morestretchier.
I guess I don't want to do this.
I feel like you're right.
I think a lot of us are morestretchier.
I guess I don't even know theterm.
It's more accommodating at workto do more, and then you find
like you're taking on more thanyou can, like you're biting off
more than you can chew.
I've done that in many sets ofthe work because I'm a hard
worker, but I'm also, like youknow, I can get fixated and,
(33:01):
like you know, do many things,and I think in my last role that
I was working at, I realized,wow, you write everything that
you actually are doing.
I'm like I didn't realize I wasdoing this much work, you know,
and no wonder I'm feeling burntout, right?
And so that's where boundarysetting starts, at the beginning
, and I think what I have to sayand I think maybe you teach
(33:23):
this to people too is, like whenyou're starting a new job, like
how you have to pace yourselfand not do too much because
you're trying to prove something.
I think that's what I've alwaystried to do is always, uh,
prove that I'm a hard worker,like to compensate for the
things that I'm not good at likein terms of time management and
(33:43):
that kind of thing.
So that's like we're alwayslearning and always working on
ourselves, but that's importanttoo.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah, although I'll say like I find myself
stretching so much more from myfamily than I would from my
coworkers, and that's I alsotake for granted I also that's
because I'm also the CEO, so Idon't have to stretch as much
right.
But for my younger brothers andfor my mom, do this right.
And it's because we're together.
I mean we are a family.
(34:12):
I can't fire anyone.
They can't fire me, we're in it.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
So you can't take time away from them and set
boundaries Because, like yousaid, I think you, um, you, you
are right, I think you dostretch more for your family and
I I remember I just had asituation where I realized I
want to do so much and sometimesI can't and I have to say no.
And it is the hardest thingwhen you are such a giving
person, when you want to doeverything to help your family,
(34:42):
and sometimes you really can't.
You know, and and that's a andyou, you brought that up in
terms of, like what we thinkabout, and I hope that people,
like whoever's listening, willthink about, like how have you
stretched yourself to the pointwhere you can't do it more?
I guess that's the one thingwhen, when we're older, right,
and at this age, uh, in our 40s,where it's like now I realize
(35:07):
I'm going to set boundaries formyself.
So do you practice the seven,the boundary rules with your
family, if that's the case, doyou realize?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yes, but I mean, this is something that is imperfect
too and I'm always working on it.
You know, there are times whereI'm like I didn't know I was
gonna snap until I snapped,because I sometimes I'm so proud
of being so stretchy, and it'sjust like, oh no, now it stops.
And I've you know, I've had to,I've had to do that recently
where it's just like no, wecan't continue anymore.
This is, and I do believe thatsome things have to just break
(35:40):
so that we can create instead ofrepair.
Sometimes you need to have itsnap and walk away and it's just
like we're gonna have to justbreak so that we can create
instead of repair.
Sometimes you need to have itsnap in and walk away and it's
just like we're going to have to, we're going to have to figure
out something new now, becausethere was no way to make things
work in the old, in that oldstructure.
So I mean, I'll just give you I.
I, during the pandemic, I endedup moving back to my family home
with my two younger brothers.
(36:00):
My father was in hospice athome, but we decided to be with
him and then, after he passed,we all decided to stay and we
recently realized we have tomove out because we are getting
stuck in certain patterns.
We all we broke the pattern andnow we are in this messy
transition period and we knowit's going to be messy for quite
a while, and yet what we hadbefore was unsustainable.
(36:22):
So I think that sometimespeople are really afraid of that
messy part, that messytransition part.
We just it takes a while tofigure that out, and yet you can
only have change if you'rewilling to have that messy part
too.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, I think the pandemic like, well, we're still
talking about it now it's beenfive years, but I feel like it's
all encompassing where thepandemic has taught us a lot and
it's also it created a lot ofnew things too.
Right, I think you said youstarted your company.
I started working more on thepodcast during the pandemic
because, like when when you saybefore, like you, I had more
(36:56):
time, so time was an issuebefore and so I had more time,
so it was like no excuses.
Now you have the time to workon things and I think, like you
said, with your family, yourealize certain things have to
break or realize that this isthe end, you have to walk away.
So going forward.
So are there what's next foryou in terms of, like, your
(37:17):
personal life, your romanticlife?
You?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
know, I will say, a big epiphany I had last year is
that we are as humans, we areall going through multiple
journeys simultaneously and eachof those journeys have their
own stages.
And so and I realized that withmy business I realized that as
a first-time CEO, as amiddle-aged woman, and it's nice
to actually have some stageswhere, like, we're just good,
(37:43):
it's like smooth, right, there'slike no drama in my
relationship.
That's the stage we're in,which is great, right.
And then in my business life,it's like, oh, we are still
working through how to get tothis success, and 50% of
businesses don't make it pastyear five.
So the fact that we're stillhere, that's great, you know.
(38:04):
And just recognizing that's thestage we're in.
We can't.
Everyone's got to go throughpuberty, right.
We all got to go throughmenopause, right.
Those are the certain stages.
So what's next for myself?
Well, I shared with you mypersonal life.
Is just that day, that would begreat.
No drama, yay, that would begreat.
No drama, yay.
And then, and for my businessis just continuing to to, I
(38:28):
think, in this economy and within world affairs is, I wouldn't
say grow it, but just strengthenit and deepen it, yeah yeah, I
have an interesting question.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
So what's one thing you wish women knew before
turning, or?
Even yourself.
What do you wish?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
you knew before you turn that we shouldn't be afraid
of getting older.
The way that people talk aboutaging.
It's so interesting how peopleoh, I don't want to talk about
my age, or, or I'm not going totell you about this because then
I'm going to date myself.
We talk about it as if it'ssomething to be ashamed of and
and we can, and so it's just,something is actually.
(39:04):
It's like it's great, it'sgreat, and the more you embrace
it, the more I embrace it.
Oh, it's an attitude.
Am I going to embrace it or amI going to push against it and
try to hide it and try to looklike I mean, I'm not one of
those people.
I update my headshot right,like I'm not using a headshot
(39:25):
from when I was 25.
Use your headshot, embrace you.
So I wish that was somethingthat I saw modeled more.
Wow.
I still think the way we talkabout aging is it's as if it's
something that it's something tobe ashamed of.
It's like no, embrace, embraceour age, you know what it's so
true.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I feel like I am embracing my age and I say, and
I and when people ask me how oldI am, I'm okay.
I think before I would be likeyou know, you're like, oh, I
don't want to talk about my age,it's, it's a generational thing
and I think our family passesit on and we have to like break
the generational gap with thator the generate like whatever
our generation passed down.
(40:03):
But I love that that you saidthat, because it's so true and I
hope that other women women whoare, if you are listening to
this that you embrace your age,because I feel like age means
wisdom and that, like youfigured out like how to get here
and what, like what it means tobe here, like you did, you put
(40:24):
in the work, right, and you putin the work yourself.
So it's amazing, right, andthanks for sharing your
relationship in this in this way.
I think it's so interesting ina way and I hope maybe it will
inspire people who thought thisis the end, that maybe they'll
look into other living livingtogether apart or living apart
(40:45):
together living apart together.
Living apart together, right,lat, lat.
Yeah, it's a new, it's somepeople have been doing it for
years, but I feel like lat is isis a new concept.
Not many people are doing it,but I think it might be
something that would help.
(41:06):
I mean, you're enjoying it.
You know what I mean.
So, yes, they both don't fix itright.
Yeah, have your own place, haveyour like your own.
Yeah, I guess there's there's alot of things that you like
about having your own space andlike do you do you feel like
when you don't live together,that you miss the person more?
(41:27):
So when you see them, it kindof makes it better in that way?
I just think that we appreciateeach other more.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
When we do see each other, I really do feel that
we're just okay.
We're not on our phone.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Oh right.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
We are together.
We are with the time that wehave.
We are just okay, we're not onour phone.
Oh right, we are together.
We are with the time that wehave.
We are together.
We're present for each other.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
That is a hard concept for many people.
Now we're not talking, yeah,you're not doing any work,
you're not answering emails.
You're in the moment with yourperson.
Well, that's amazing.
Thank you so much, julie, forbeing on the show.
It's been great talking to you.
I'm Carlene, and this is DivaTonight with Dr.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Julie.
Thank you so much, carlene, Ireally enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back.
Send us a message on Instagramat diva underscore tonight.
Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva Tonight.
Today we're celebrating thepower of being a woman at 40 and
also all the complexities andnuances that come with different
relationships.
I have with me Dr Julie Pham,an expert in relationships.
When it comes to the workenvironment, she has a company
(00:25):
called.
Remind me again, it's yeah, andso we're not really going to be
talking too much about yourcareer.
I mean, we will, but I thinkit's very interesting that you
are sharing your relationshipand how you have something that
isn't like.
You're in a relationship thatisn't conventional in the sense
(00:46):
where you're not married, butyou guys are living together,
apart, I guess that's the term.
Living apart, together, livingapart together.
Yes, this is new for me too,and I think it's very
interesting that you're in thiskind of relationship and this is
your first time talking aboutit in a public setting.
So thank you, carleen.
I just feel that your audience.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I just want to spread that this is an option, because
so many people think thatyou're supposed to live together
and then get married.
And you don't have to do either.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Especially, you don't actually have to live together
because I do think that being ina good relationship and being
good roommates are two differentthings yeah, because I mean you
could be in a relationship tooand it's it's like you're not
living together, they're livingtogether, but you're you've
grown apart.
So it's kind of like you'reliving with your roommate, like
everything goes down downtogether for granted.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
You actually don't talk that much and you're just
kind of at the end of the dayyou're like, well, we're
together and you're justwatching TV or whatever, and you
barely see each other, eventhough you're technically living
together.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, yeah.
So can you tell me about thislifestyle, like your choice to
do so, living apart, together?
For those who don't get whatthat is, I mean, it's
self-explanatory, but you know.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
It's probably not.
I have to tell you, I actuallyhad to look up the I know that
there was a term, a back term,because I was doing this before
80s really became something thatpeople started writing about,
and I actually just looked upthe stuff that I guess about 3%
of married couples actually dothis now, and so what it means
is that you are together in ahealthy relationship and yet you
(02:27):
decide to live in separateplaces.
So I'm not talking about inseparate bedrooms, I'm talking
about in separate homes, and sobecause I know that there are
the couples that they may justhave their separate bedrooms,
and so my partner and I havebeen together for almost 11
years and in the beginning, whenwe started dating, we did think
, oh, we will eventually livetogether.
(02:48):
And he's got, he's a single dadand he has full custody of his
kids, and when he got his kidsthey were they were nine and 13.
And so I was just like, oh, thisis, I'm not going to live with
you.
And because I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be the
(03:10):
default babysitter, and we alsohave really separate
expectations, so I'll get toabout that.
But so that played one factorin it.
But after a while we're likethis is actually really good.
And even when because now hiskids are his kids are both
adults and and one's about toleave, which is we'll probably
not live together unless wecan't afford to or we can't
afford to live separatehouseholds we actually see this
as something that is really goodin our relationship.
(03:32):
So living apart together isjust you you are in a
relationship and yet you chooseto live separately.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, and so how is the setup?
I think that's the one thingthat some people would question,
like, how do you handle day today logistics, like when do you
guys see each other?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Do you see each other every other weekend, or do you
plan your visits like thatalways on Saturday, and so even
for married couples who livetogether or people with kids
it's just they.
Still it's a good practice tohave a date night so that you
can set aside a day where hey,this is, this is on our calendar
(04:11):
.
Otherwise people, even when youlive together, you might think,
oh well, we don't have to dothat and it's like, actually I
think it is important to toprioritize it and to make it a
special day.
So for us, we see each otheronce a week in person and then
we talk every night.
And actually we have alwayslived within 10 miles of each
(04:32):
other, so we are livingseparately, but it's not
actually not that far, andactually where he is right now
he's living a mile and a halfaway from me.
I can walk there, okay so it'snot too far.
Okay, it's not too far, but youknow, there are also, I know,
couples who they live indifferent States, and so I have
a friend where she's in Seattleand her husband's in Nashville,
and so she'll go out everycouple of weeks, and so it
(04:55):
depends on how far away that youare from each other.
That depends on how often thatyou see each other.
I think an important part ofthis is that you have other ways
of communicating, and so thething about living apart
together means you understandthat we don't have to be in
person to communicate, and,carly, don't you think?
The pandemic taught us that too?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yes, it did it did.
You know what I mean?
It taught us a lot, Actuallyit's funny that you talk about
that.
During the pandemic, the guy Iwas seeing at the time I haven't
even talked about this in openform, but he was literally a
one-minute walk Like he was myneighbor next door, Didn't live
any closer than that and he wasway younger than me oh, my
(05:40):
goodness, 15 years younger andit was.
Yeah, the pandemic taught me alot, for sure yeah, a long
distance relationship?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
it's not like that, but it's in permanent state yeah
, it's.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I think it's harder when it's long distance, I mean,
especially when you don't getto see them as often as you want
, and I think it might it would.
It would be easier if you, if Imet the person in the beginning
and then maybe it was longdistance or something, but I
think even in the beginning, Ijust think it's challenging to
do long distance, I mean in your, in your situation.
(06:17):
Do you think, because you liveapart, that you could do long
distance because you've gottenused to that?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I mean yes, and I've actually, in my, in my twenties,
my first serious relationship.
We started long distancetogether for two and a half
years and we were in differentcountries.
And so I actually think thatthe the thing about long
distance is it forces people tocommunicate in different ways,
and that was in the, that was inthe two thousands where we
didn't have, I mean, videoconferencing, was not there yet,
(06:46):
and I mean I was living inVietnam and we'd have these
calling cards where it'd be 30cents a minute, 35 cents a
minute.
That was a very expensive call.
So actually we did a lot ofemailing and when I lived in
Vietnam, home internet wasreally difficult at the time, so
I'd have to go to theseinternet cafes and we'd write
letters.
And so my point being, Iactually think in any
(07:07):
relationship going long distance, even if just for a month or
two months, it forces people tocommunicate in a different way
and not just to rely on the easeof being together and just
unspoken proximity, and it'sjust actually we have to
articulate how we feel andwhat's happening in our lives in
a way that helps people feelthat we are still together even
(07:27):
though we're apart, which Ithink is what we did during the
pandemic Right Fast forward.
We were all learning how to dothat, and so so there's long
distance, which is temporaryusually, or for some people,
that's a permanent state withthe.
Living apart together, that ishey, we've made a conscious
decision to do that.
Being apart together, that ishey, we've made a conscious
decision to do that.
And it's also the like I saidearlier, being a good roommate
(07:52):
and being a good partner are twodifferent things and in a way,
when we are together, it's likehey, let's actually, let's bring
our best selves, not ourleftover selves.
Because sometimes what happensis when we are together, all
live together ourselves.
Because sometimes what happensis when we are together, all
live together, and it's justlike you get home and you're
tired and you bring and you were, you had to be cheery at work
with your friends and you bringyour, you give your leftovers to
(08:13):
the people at home.
Yeah, it's hard, it's hardRight and like and so with me
and my partner, it's like okay,no, we are.
We want to bring our bestselves when we're together, and
that just means our more, say,optimistic selves, our more open
selves.
It's not pretending to bedifferent, it's just more of
like.
You know what I really want tobe present with you right now.
The time that we have togetheris precious, and it's thinking
(08:35):
more about that as the qualityof the time versus the quantity
of the time.
Yeah so where did you guys meet?
We actually met throughvolunteering and so, carlene, I
did not do this online datingstuff either, so I've never
actually Right, and actuallyneither of us have ever done
online dating.
(08:55):
And I gave him a Valentine cardone year that said you saved me
from online dating, and Iactually asked him out.
That was a joke we have where Iwas the one who asked him out.
I like to tease him if I didn'task you out.
And so I will say, like I saidearlier, we didn't expect this.
In the beginning, I think we hadthis both, this conventional
(09:17):
idea of yes, eventually we'lllive together, and a lot of my
friends thought we weren'tserious.
Are you guys serious?
Because we don't have anyintention of living together.
And friends were just are youguys serious?
Like, are you in a committedrelationship if that's not the
destination you are movingtoward?
And then I think it was maybesix it had to be five, six years
(09:40):
in where our friends were like,oh yeah, you are serious.
And now we've been together forover a decade and people realize
, oh, this is just another wayto be together.
And so you know, for yourlisteners, sometimes people have
, they're having real issues intheir relationship.
And I say try just livingseparately, because you'll have
(10:03):
a different relationship witheach other when you're not
having to clean up after eachother, having those, all those
resentments that you get.
That is from a life together.
And and if you still can't makethat work, then okay, but at
least try that, because maybeyou're conflating living
together with being a goodpartner and being in a healthy
relationship.
And I will also say you do haveto make the decision.
(10:25):
People have to make thedecision of having separate
households, and so this could bea pro or con, because some
people like to combine all their, their resources so they can
have more.
Yeah, like because I want thisand I want this, I want this,
yeah.
And so for us I mean we bothwhat also really helps is we
both live very simply, we bothhave small places, we both don't
(10:45):
like to have a lot of stuff,and so we don't need to have all
that space, you guys, in termsof living apart, so you pay your
own bills and he pays his yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Do you guys do anything together in terms of
like finances, like when you goaway together?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, so when we go away, we usually have this okay,
you pay for this part and Ihave to pay for this part.
So we don't do this wholesplitting down the middle or the
yeah, it's, we don't use thoseapps or something like that.
It's more of yeah, hey, I'llpay for the lodging and then you
pay for this part and and.
And even when we have, when wego over to friends or we do a
(11:25):
date night, we'll take turnspaying, or if it's, if it's my
friends, we're going into myfriends or we're doing something
with my friends, then I pay.
And if it's his friends, and hepays.
So even if it's a potluck, ifit's my friend, I will pay.
If, even if it's more my friendthan your friend, I will, I
will cover that.
So, yeah, but we don't, wedon't do the whole calculation
(11:48):
thing, but that's also just.
I know some couples are finewith that and we're just the
ease, it's it all.
It all washes out.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
When you tell people, though, like I mean, you
mentioned briefly that yourfriends didn't take the
relationship seriously, but whenyou, when you talk about it, I
don't know who you talk about itwith.
When you, when you talk aboutit, I don't know who you talk
about it with Do you, do youface judgment?
Like, do people judge judgmentsor assumptions from other
people?
Don't live this way, becauseit's not it's still not
(12:17):
conventional and it's like kindof like.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I think there's surprise and then there's
curiosity oh, how does that?
How does that work?
And do you, do you intend tolive together?
And then, depending on forfriends who have been in
relationships who are divorced,it's like, huh, maybe I would
like that, and I think,especially for women, if you can
afford to have your ownhousehold.
(12:40):
And when I tell my friends this, they're like wait a minute,
yeah, I do like my space, I dolike my things.
Why would I go and live withsomeone?
Because for many women, evenwhen you have a partner, if you
have a male partner who's reallyprogressive and likes to share
things, somehow a lot of thehousehold duties and the
(13:04):
emotional labor of the householdsomehow still falls to women.
It's just kind of a defaultright, and so I think, and then
those subtle little resentmentsdo build up.
I mean, I think for many womenor I'll just speak for myself.
That's the way I was conditioned.
I have two younger brothers.
I've lived with them as anadult and somehow I found myself
(13:26):
picking up after them, eventhough they are adults too.
So this is a way to actually toto have your relationship focus
on what you enjoy doingtogether and not not being a
roommate.
Another thing that I'll saythat's a bit different from our
relationship is, early on, Isaid I don't want to say I love
you, and instead, because for methat what I really wanted in a
(13:50):
relationship, what I felt wasmissing from earlier
relationships, was I felt I wastaken for granted, and so what's
so important for me in arelationship is gratitude, and
so actually, instead of saying Ilove you, what we say to each
other is we say I'm grateful,I'm grateful for you, and that's
our way of saying I love you.
Wow, so you have it and it'sand it's constantly quote
(14:11):
reminder I mean we, you know, Idon't, I'm I really I'm kind of
confused, yeah yeah.
So you know how people say Ilove you, I love you, I love you
, right.
And so for me, love is like ohwell, that's a big, that's big
word.
And yet, at the core of what,like, the most important thing
in a, in a relationship, for me,is that I feel that that person
(14:35):
appreciates me and they don'ttake me for granted, right, and
they can love me and they cangive me roses and they can tell
me how beautiful I am.
But what I actually want toknow is that they appreciate me,
and so I told my partner reallyearly on I don't ever want to
be taken for granted, and soinstead of saying I love you,
which feels more kind of generic, we have chosen to say our way
(14:57):
of saying I love you is sayingI'm grateful for you.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So you have not said I love you.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Oh, no, we have said that, but it's just not our, but
our way of saying is that whatyou're saying?
No, it's more of like asubstitute.
Instead of saying I love you,we say I'm grateful, Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And you feel that that makes the relationship more
complete in that way, or youfeel like that.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It reminds us of what's really important.
What do we prioritize?
And what we prioritize issaying I appreciate you, I don't
take you for granted.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I see the effort you put into this relationship and
what has made you decide thatthis is the way you want your
relationships?
Is it from previousrelationships where you felt
that?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
yeah, previous relationships definitely feeling
taken for granted and andthat's why when I got to this
relationship, it was just I andwe entered this relationship
when I was in my mid-30s andit's like I want this
relationship.
I've learned from otherrelationships and what I want in
this relationship is to feelappreciated, and I want also my
(16:02):
partner feel to feel appreciatedand to be a little more
specific than just love, becauselove is really big and broad.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, no, it is.
It is and I think I think,especially if you I don't know
how your family was growing up,but I find the one thing about
like immigrant or caribbeanfamilies like I'm from the
caribbean, like my parentsdidn't my mom would say I love
you a lot and so it was neverdone that, and so like you don't
(16:29):
grow up with that, and so whenyou're in a relationship and the
person says I love you or thatfeeling, it's different.
It takes time to understandwhat that actually means.
Like you know what I mean, whenyou love someone you're willing
to do anything for them.
And so when you don't have thatbase to work with, or like you
don't have that own experience,I think it changes like your
(16:51):
outlook on what you're expected,what you expect in a
relationship to begin with.
Right, so, totally different.
But you know the series.
The show is focused also on 40and like at 40.
So now that you're you've beentogether, for you said 11 years,
almost 11 years.
And now that you've beentogether for you said 11 years,
(17:11):
almost 11 years.
And now that you are 40, whathas surprised you most about
this stage of life?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
That it gets better, that I didn't expect to have so
much clarity, I didn't expect tohave so much more confidence at
this age, and, at the same time, there's still times where I'm
seized with insecurities as well, so I don't want to say no.
I do feel a lot moreunapologetic about what matters
(17:36):
to me and just saying no, I'mnot going to go to that, you can
do that, it's okay, I don'tneed to go, or I don't need to
do that thing, or I don't wantto do that thing.
This is what I value instead,and I really I think that
experience has taught me that,because experience has taught me
I don't want to be resentful,and the way I avoid being
resentful is by being clear inwhat I want and what I don't
(18:00):
want, and also, though, that Ican still learn and discover new
things about myself too.
So that is that I can discoverthat I can continue, that I can
continue to learn.
I mean, for a while, I tookadult break dancing classes.
I will never be good at dancing, and yet there's still
something so much fun about it,and so just there's a freedom in
(18:23):
.
Not everything has to besomething that I eventually
excel in, because there's manythings I have not excelled in,
and there's something fun aboutjust learning.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Okay, that's good.
I think for sure at this, atthis stage, I feel that too,
like we're, like you said, notbeing apologetic anymore, like
being okay with the mistakesthat you make and being okay
with who you are and beingcomfortable with you know,
before I would be like, if I'mlistening to music while I'm
walking and if I feel like youknow dancing to the music, I'd
(18:51):
be like, oh, other people aregonna think I'm crazy or strange
, but now the stage, I'm like Idon't really care.
So, um, I think it's.
It's more or less.
You're not as self-consciousabout everything, but just
accepting yourself, of course,but yeah, so how would you
describe the difference betweenhow you approach your
relationships in your twentiesand now?
Oh, gosh.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So wait, are you talking about all relationships
or romantic relationships?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Um, I guess romantic relationships yeah, and you can
elaborate too with friendships.
I think it encompasses allthings, I guess, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's setting boundaries
and saying and not feeling thatI should do something.
So even the word should, Ireally try not to use the word
should.
So, going back to early on,when my partner got his kids,
just establishing it, I'm astepmom, I'm not going to be a
babysitter, I am their dad'spartner, and now we have as the
(19:51):
kids are now adults we have areally good relationship, but it
wasn't always we had to earnthat, and so I think that being
clear about what I need issomething in all relationships
that I've learned to apply, andI also I don't get FOMO.
There's that fear of missingout.
I think they call it joy ofmissing out.
(20:13):
Right, if you want to go, dothat, that's cool.
There's actually somethingliberating about saying no,
that's okay and I'm not.
And let me offer something elseand not worrying about is that
going to hurt the person?
Is that going to hurt theirrelationship?
Because now I think more aboutif we are truly friends, then
(20:42):
you don't want me to dosomething that I don't want to
do either.
And then, Carlene, anotherthing is just really thinking
about the friendships and thepeople who I want in my life and
understanding that it takeswork.
I think some people think, oh,friends should just come to me,
and I'm recognizing at thisstage we're all really busy and
(21:07):
so sometimes I do have to put ina little more effort,
especially with my friends whohave kids, who have other other
really time consumingresponsibilities and I'm OK with
that too really time-consumingresponsibilities, and I'm okay
with that too.
So, yes, I'd say that settingboundaries, but also
understanding that differentpeople have different needs and
sometimes we do have to givemore if we want to have that
person in our life and to acceptthat they've got things going
on too.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Diva Tonight glamour for your ears.
This is 40, a femaleperspective perspective no,
you're right.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Um, sure, I think especially time is so important
and, like you, have to make timefor everyone.
Like you know, and sometimes Iguess, what we can, what I can
say based on your experiencesthat, since you live apart with
your partner, that it allows youto devote time to other things
too, like other people, and youknow your friends, family,
(21:55):
colleagues, whatever and yourbusiness right, because I mean
there's more to you than yourrelationship.
You have a career as well, andyour background isn't.
You have a phd and as well,right, so it says a lot about
you as a person and like yourachievements in life.
But what are you most proud ofat this stage in your life?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I don't know if it's the.
I'll say something that I'mvery proud of.
I don't know if it's the mostthe thing that I'm most proud of
.
I'm really proud of starting myown company.
I did that.
I think I was probably 41 or 42when I did that and I just
curiosity-based.
I love my and actually I'mproud that I was an employer
from the get-go.
So a lot of people they'llstart their company and they're
(22:36):
a solopreneur and from theget-go.
It's just.
I don't want to build thiscompany alone.
I actually left the best job Iever had.
I was working in a nonprofitand I had some interns there and
they were going to lose theirinternships if once I left to
start my own company.
So I actually took them with meand I used my savings and I
paid for their their firstsalary out of my savings because
(22:57):
I was like I want to build thiscompany with other people and
so I'm proud of my small andscrappy team and what we're
doing to help spread curiosityin the world and just bit by bit
, just the the impact that we'rehaving yeah, no, that's amazing
and I think, well, I mean interms of your company and what
you do.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I think a lot of it, from what I've read briefly, is
that curiosity basically helpothers, like set boundaries.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
And there's seven, there's seven, yeah, the seven
forms of yeah, there's the sevensteps, but also just getting
curious.
And how do we get curious aboutourselves?
Practice inward curiosity.
How do we get curious withother people?
Workplaces have the opportunityto be learning organizations,
because learning doesn't stop atschool, and so that's what we
(23:44):
really try to do Work withemployers to create these
cultures of continual learningwhere people feel safe to ask
questions.
They feel safe to say I don'tknow.
And how do we learn from oneanother, versus just getting
training?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Right, I think that's a different concept.
So what gave you the idea tostart your own company?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, yeah, and so I'll tell you.
Some people say they followyour passion.
Yeah, and so I'll tell you.
Some people say they followyour passion.
I actually think I wasanswering a calling.
I felt called to do this work.
I at the time I was working asan executive at a nonprofit and
probably it was the best job Iever had and the only reason I
would leave the best job I everhad.
Wow, I love writing.
I think at my core, I'm awriter and I have these ideas
(24:30):
that I want to share and Iwanted to share it under my name
, and I could not do that as anemployee.
So I actually had to start totake the risk and to start my
own company.
And I did that in the middle ofthe pandemic because I felt,
wow, I think that the work, whatI'm writing, can actually help
people beyond the audience atthe nonprofit that I was working
at and I just want to.
I want to try.
(24:52):
I felt called to to do thatwork.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
No, I think it's great what you're doing, because
there's so many things that weare supposed to do in life and
if you find your calling, not alot of people say that it's
their calling.
Like, I think, the other personI spoke to I remember when I
was visiting a family member inthe hospital and the nurse said
to me this is a calling.
You know, I've decided thatthis is my life's work because
(25:18):
it's a calling Like she's.
Like I spend 12 hours a dayhere working as a nurse and I
lose a lot of time with my childand my family, and so this is
not just for anybody.
You know what I mean.
So when you're doing somethinglike that, that means that
you've devoted your life to it.
So obviously it meant somethingfor you to start the company
(25:41):
CuriosityBase, which is cool.
It's so cool that you do that.
So where did you go to school?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
For my undergrad I went to Berkeley and for my grad
school I went to Cambridge inthe UK.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
In the UK.
Okay, so that was when you wereasking about that.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
And so do you feel like youreducation has led you to where
you are now, because, I mean,obviously you were working for a
company that you enjoyedworking for, right.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, I'm trained as a historian and I don't do
historical research.
Now, I mean, actually, my PhDis in intellectual modern
Southeast Asian history, andthat is not what I do.
My dissertation was a biographyof a South Vietnamese communist
revolutionary, and that is notwhat I do.
My dissertation was a biographyof a South Vietnamese communist
revolutionary, and that is notwhat I do, carleen.
The work, though, of ahistorian is it's about
(26:30):
perspective taking and aboutuncovering the stories, and that
is so central to the work thatI do now, because, for us to
practice curiosity, we have to.
We have to be open to differentpossibilities, and so you have,
you may, and I truly believethat multiple truths can coexist
, and so, instead of trying tofight over what is true, let's
(26:52):
actually understand why yourtruth is the way it is, and I'll
just give you an example.
I'm a Vietnamese refugee.
That's a really important partof my identity.
I'm a South Vietnamese refugee.
My parents and I left communistVietnam, and so we just had
April 30th and the 50thanniversary of the end of what's
called the Vietnam War, and soin the US, they call that the
(27:13):
fall of Saigon.
In communist Vietnam, they callthat April 30th, liberation Day
, when the North liberated theSouth, and for the South
Vietnamese community that Ibelong to, we call that the day
we lost our country and allthree are true Fall of Saigon,
liberation Day, the day we lostour country.
For me, I'm really interestedin why is that?
(27:35):
What's your story let's talkabout?
What does it mean for it to beLiberation Day, what does it
mean for it to be the day welost our country?
And so that's central to mywork now to help people embrace
that, to be open to differentpossibilities.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, there's different possibilities in every
.
I think, in a way, when youtalk about that, the fact that
you studied history, history, isimportant for everything the
history of the company, thehistory, how we got here because
I always say, it's not whereyou're going, it's where you
came from.
And if, if, because of yourhistory, if it helped you form
(28:10):
the person that you are today,help me form your identity, and
so it's kind of like you're ateacher in a in a way, but in a
different platform.
And I think even for me, likeyou said, we, we it's it's our
passion or our calling Right,and so for me, like you said, we
, it's it's our passion or ourcalling right, and so for me, I
think it was my, I realized whatmy passion was really late and
having that clarity.
That's what you said earlierabout being clear about who you
(28:33):
are, and I think that's theimportant thing.
So you, you're not practicingwhat you studied in school, but
in some shape or form it hashelped you with what you do now,
like your career, your businessand your identity Right, and so
I think it's changed youridentity.
Obviously, it's still a part ofwho you are.
(28:53):
Do you feel like all threethings like are true.
Like you lost, they lost yourcountry.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Say that Right, I right I mean, well, that's
that's when people are, I mean,as political refugees, that's,
we're fleeing, yeah, communism,and so that's.
Then it feels like the countrywe lost and and and and all and
all of them are.
All of those different names aretrue, and so for me it's more
about the process of learningthan it is actually about the
(29:22):
final label, and that informshow we work now, because even we
all have even our own littlestories, our experiences that
lead us to who we are today, andso there's one of the stories
that make up a nation and one ofthe stories that just make up
me and who I am.
And so how do we go back intime?
I can't remember the name ofthe book, but there's this one
(29:44):
book about storytelling, and itsays that people who are able to
know their personal history,kids who are able to know their
personal history, are actuallymuch more resilient in life.
And then the author then wenton and did a study for
organizations and they found outthat employees who know the
story of their, of the ups anddowns of their company, their
(30:05):
employer, actually are much moreengaged in the work.
And so I think knowing ourpersonal history is makes us
healthier and makes us moreengaged.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
For sure.
Yeah, I think knowing is halfthe battle, right, and
understanding too.
And so, in terms of likeorganizations that you work with
, right, how do you help them interms of like?
Is it boundary setting to beginwith, because you said it's
curiosity based, but do you help, I guess, if you elaborate?
How do you help?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, yeah, and so yes, and actually I'm wondering
if I.
So one of the things that we doworkshops on is called the
seven forms of respect, and soI'll just say there that a lot
of people it's about how respectis relative, it's objective,
dynamic and also contradictory.
And it's contradictory becausewe as humans are contradictory,
(30:56):
and so it's actually helpingemployers move away from right
or wrong respect versusdisrespect to huh, how do we,
instead of saying how do we bemore respectful, how do we get,
how do we talk about what doesrespect mean here in our
organization?
And then the other part of thatis in terms of the boundary
setting.
When people talk about respect,they often talk about the
golden rule Treat people the wayyou want to be treated.
(31:18):
Now, the thing about the goldenrule is what if they don't want
to be treated the way you wantto be treated treated?
Now, the thing about the goldenrule is what if they don't want
to be treated the way you wantto be treated?
What if they don't want to betreated the way you want to be
treated?
So I have what I call therubber band rule and I teach
people this.
The rubber band rule is and Inormally have a rubber band, but
the rubber band rule is we areable to stretch.
So, carleen, maybe you'd liketo be treated a for people, and
sometimes, though, we'restretching a lot, and it's
(31:45):
really uncomfortable, and whatcan happen is, if I wanna show
respect, but I don't feel trueto myself and I'm stretching and
stretching, and stretching, Ican snap and break, and so, with
the rubber band rule is aboutknowing what are my internal
breaking points, what's gonnamake me snap, and that's
actually about self-awarenessand it's about self-respect, and
so I teach that a lot, too, togive people this mental model oh
(32:08):
, am I stretching?
Oh, and, because everyone'srubber band is different, and
also your rubber band could bedifferent at work and home, I'm
a lot more stretchy at home thanI'm at work.
Like, I'm much better atboundary setting at work than I
am at home, and that could bedifferent for different people,
I mean.
So, carleen, I invite you tothink about that.
Are you more stretchy at workor at home?
And I invite your listeners tothink about that too.
(32:30):
And am I actually?
Am I snapping, am I breaking?
And is that because I haven'ttold people that I don't want to
do this?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I feel like you're right.
I think a lot of us are morestretchier.
I guess I don't want to do this.
I feel like you're right.
I think a lot of us are morestretchier.
I guess I don't even know theterm.
It's more accommodating at workto do more, and then you find
like you're taking on more thanyou can, like you're biting off
more than you can chew.
I've done that in many sets ofthe work because I'm a hard
worker, but I'm also, like youknow, I can get fixated and,
(33:01):
like you know, do many things,and I think in my last role that
I was working at, I realized,wow, you write everything that
you actually are doing.
I'm like I didn't realize I wasdoing this much work, you know,
and no wonder I'm feeling burntout, right?
And so that's where boundarysetting starts, at the beginning
, and I think what I have to sayand I think maybe you teach
(33:23):
this to people too is, like whenyou're starting a new job, like
how you have to pace yourselfand not do too much because
you're trying to prove something.
I think that's what I've alwaystried to do is always, uh,
prove that I'm a hard worker,like to compensate for the
things that I'm not good at likein terms of time management and
(33:43):
that kind of thing.
So that's like we're alwayslearning and always working on
ourselves, but that's importanttoo.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah, although I'll say like I find myself
stretching so much more from myfamily than I would from my
coworkers, and that's I alsotake for granted I also that's
because I'm also the CEO, so Idon't have to stretch as much
right.
But for my younger brothers andfor my mom, do this right.
And it's because we're together.
I mean we are a family.
(34:12):
I can't fire anyone.
They can't fire me, we're in it.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
So you can't take time away from them and set
boundaries Because, like yousaid, I think you, um, you, you
are right, I think you dostretch more for your family and
I I remember I just had asituation where I realized I
want to do so much and sometimesI can't and I have to say no.
And it is the hardest thingwhen you are such a giving
person, when you want to doeverything to help your family,
(34:42):
and sometimes you really can't.
You know, and and that's a andyou, you brought that up in
terms of, like what we thinkabout, and I hope that people,
like whoever's listening, willthink about, like how have you
stretched yourself to the pointwhere you can't do it more?
I guess that's the one thingwhen, when we're older, right,
and at this age, uh, in our 40s,where it's like now I realize
(35:07):
I'm going to set boundaries formyself.
So do you practice the seven,the boundary rules with your
family, if that's the case, doyou realize?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yes, but I mean, this is something that is imperfect
too and I'm always working on it.
You know, there are times whereI'm like I didn't know I was
gonna snap until I snapped,because I sometimes I'm so proud
of being so stretchy, and it'sjust like, oh no, now it stops.
And I've you know, I've had to,I've had to do that recently
where it's just like no, wecan't continue anymore.
This is, and I do believe thatsome things have to just break
(35:40):
so that we can create instead ofrepair.
Sometimes you need to have itsnap and walk away and it's just
like we're gonna have to justbreak so that we can create
instead of repair.
Sometimes you need to have itsnap in and walk away and it's
just like we're going to have to, we're going to have to figure
out something new now, becausethere was no way to make things
work in the old, in that oldstructure.
So I mean, I'll just give you I.
I, during the pandemic, I endedup moving back to my family home
with my two younger brothers.
(36:00):
My father was in hospice athome, but we decided to be with
him and then, after he passed,we all decided to stay and we
recently realized we have tomove out because we are getting
stuck in certain patterns.
We all we broke the pattern andnow we are in this messy
transition period and we knowit's going to be messy for quite
a while, and yet what we hadbefore was unsustainable.
(36:22):
So I think that sometimespeople are really afraid of that
messy part, that messytransition part.
We just it takes a while tofigure that out, and yet you can
only have change if you'rewilling to have that messy part
too.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, I think the pandemic like, well, we're still
talking about it now it's beenfive years, but I feel like it's
all encompassing where thepandemic has taught us a lot and
it's also it created a lot ofnew things too.
Right, I think you said youstarted your company.
I started working more on thepodcast during the pandemic
because, like when when you saybefore, like you, I had more
(36:56):
time, so time was an issuebefore and so I had more time,
so it was like no excuses.
Now you have the time to workon things and I think, like you
said, with your family, yourealize certain things have to
break or realize that this isthe end, you have to walk away.
So going forward.
So are there what's next foryou in terms of, like, your
(37:17):
personal life, your romanticlife?
You?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
know, I will say, a big epiphany I had last year is
that we are as humans, we areall going through multiple
journeys simultaneously and eachof those journeys have their
own stages.
And so and I realized that withmy business I realized that as
a first-time CEO, as amiddle-aged woman, and it's nice
to actually have some stageswhere, like, we're just good,
(37:43):
it's like smooth, right, there'slike no drama in my
relationship.
That's the stage we're in,which is great, right.
And then in my business life,it's like, oh, we are still
working through how to get tothis success, and 50% of
businesses don't make it pastyear five.
So the fact that we're stillhere, that's great, you know.
(38:04):
And just recognizing that's thestage we're in.
We can't.
Everyone's got to go throughpuberty, right.
We all got to go throughmenopause, right.
Those are the certain stages.
So what's next for myself?
Well, I shared with you mypersonal life.
Is just that day, that would begreat.
No drama, yay, that would begreat.
No drama, yay.
And then, and for my businessis just continuing to to, I
(38:28):
think, in this economy and within world affairs is, I wouldn't
say grow it, but just strengthenit and deepen it, yeah yeah, I
have an interesting question.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
So what's one thing you wish women knew before
turning, or?
Even yourself.
What do you wish?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
you knew before you turn that we shouldn't be afraid
of getting older.
The way that people talk aboutaging.
It's so interesting how peopleoh, I don't want to talk about
my age, or, or I'm not going totell you about this because then
I'm going to date myself.
We talk about it as if it'ssomething to be ashamed of and
and we can, and so it's just,something is actually.
(39:04):
It's like it's great, it'sgreat, and the more you embrace
it, the more I embrace it.
Oh, it's an attitude.
Am I going to embrace it or amI going to push against it and
try to hide it and try to looklike I mean, I'm not one of
those people.
I update my headshot right,like I'm not using a headshot
(39:25):
from when I was 25.
Use your headshot, embrace you.
So I wish that was somethingthat I saw modeled more.
Wow.
I still think the way we talkabout aging is it's as if it's
something that it's something tobe ashamed of.
It's like no, embrace, embraceour age, you know what it's so
true.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I feel like I am embracing my age and I say, and
I and when people ask me how oldI am, I'm okay.
I think before I would be likeyou know, you're like, oh, I
don't want to talk about my age,it's, it's a generational thing
and I think our family passesit on and we have to like break
the generational gap with thator the generate like whatever
our generation passed down.
(40:03):
But I love that that you saidthat, because it's so true and I
hope that other women women whoare, if you are listening to
this that you embrace your age,because I feel like age means
wisdom and that, like youfigured out like how to get here
and what, like what it means tobe here, like you did, you put
(40:24):
in the work, right, and you putin the work yourself.
So it's amazing, right, andthanks for sharing your
relationship in this in this way.
I think it's so interesting ina way and I hope maybe it will
inspire people who thought thisis the end, that maybe they'll
look into other living livingtogether apart or living apart
(40:45):
together living apart together.
Living apart together, right,lat, lat.
Yeah, it's a new, it's somepeople have been doing it for
years, but I feel like lat is isis a new concept.
Not many people are doing it,but I think it might be
something that would help.
(41:06):
I mean, you're enjoying it.
You know what I mean.
So, yes, they both don't fix itright.
Yeah, have your own place, haveyour like your own.
Yeah, I guess there's there's alot of things that you like
about having your own space andlike do you do you feel like
when you don't live together,that you miss the person more?
(41:27):
So when you see them, it kindof makes it better in that way?
I just think that we appreciateeach other more.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
When we do see each other, I really do feel that
we're just okay.
We're not on our phone.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Oh right.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
We are together.
We are with the time that wehave.
We are just okay, we're not onour phone.
Oh right, we are together.
We are with the time that wehave.
We are together.
We're present for each other.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
That is a hard concept for many people.
Now we're not talking, yeah,you're not doing any work,
you're not answering emails.
You're in the moment with yourperson.
Well, that's amazing.
Thank you so much, julie, forbeing on the show.
It's been great talking to you.
I'm Carlene, and this is DivaTonight with Dr.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Julie.
Thank you so much, carlene, Ireally enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back.
Send us a message on Instagramat diva underscore tonight.
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