October 5, 2024 • 32 mins
Regina and Russ discuss executive functioning. They define what it is, what challenges its disfunction causes, and some tips and tricks to get your spicy brain to make more of those sweet, sweet decisions. Have you struggled with executive disfunction? Have you ever experienced decision paralysis? Hit us up on @DivergentPathsConsulting and share your experiences! Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode!
About Regina McMenomy Ph.D.
Host of the Divergent Paths Podcast | ADHD & Neurodiversity Advocate | Founder, Divergent Paths Consulting
Welcome to Divergent Paths, a podcast dedicated to exploring life, work, and creativity through the lens of neurodiversity. Hosted by Regina, founder of Divergent Paths Consulting, the show delves into the experiences of individuals navigating ADHD and other invisible disabilities. As someone who received a late ADHD diagnosis, Regina brings personal insights and professional expertise to each episode, helping listeners find new ways to thrive in a neurotypical world.
With over 20 years of experience in instructional design, project management, and coaching, Regina is passionate about creating inclusive spaces where neurodiverse individuals can succeed. Through this podcast, Regina shares conversations with experts, professionals, and everyday people, offering tips, strategies, and stories of empowerment.
Tune in to learn how to embrace neurodivergence, redefine success, and chart your own path forward.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I used to think when I cleaned my bathroom, I had to clean everything.
(00:05):
And that's a sense of perfectionism, right?
It had to be this huge monolithic thing to do.
As opposed to, why can't I just clean the sink?
And oh, if I just do the shower, it's just 10 minutes of me doing the shower.
As opposed to, you know, an hour or two to do everything.
I've learned to break tasks down when I look at a room.
(00:26):
I don't have to clean the whole room.
Maybe I just pick up my laundry right now.
Hello and welcome to Divergent Paths.
I'm your host, Dr. Regina McManamee.
I am a doctor, but not that kind of doctor.
(00:48):
And this is a podcast, not medical advice.
Have you always felt a little different, but didn't know why?
Have you struggled with tasks that some people seem to handle with ease?
Are you mystified by social norms and interactions?
Divergent Paths is a podcast for late diagnosed neurodivergent people to discuss their journeys
discovering the joys and frustrations of having a spicy brain.
(01:11):
Each episode, I will interview someone who discovered they have ADHD, autism, or a combination
of the two later in life.
What defines a later in life diagnosis?
Anytime the realization happens outside of the quote unquote norm of childhood and adolescence.
We've mentioned a few times that people with ADHD and autism often face issues with executive
(01:33):
functioning.
But what is executive functioning and how does it relate to having a spicy brain?
In this episode, Russ and I will explain everything you need to know about executive functioning.
So stay tuned and thanks for listening to Divergent Paths.
Why don't you just tell me what it is?
I'm just going to cut right to it.
(01:53):
Just what is it?
Executive functioning is the phrasing for how we make decisions.
So whenever you make a decision in your life, any decision, and that could be wearing a
black t-shirt versus wearing a blue t-shirt, that is you using your executive functioning.
(02:18):
Is it though?
Yes.
Because I'm just grabbing the same, like I have like 20 black t-shirts and I just grab
those.
It's sort of like the Steve Jobs things.
He would just wear the same thing because he didn't want to think about it.
He just wanted to get in and just do something else.
So is it executive functioning that I'm doing that or is it just like, okay, this is cool.
You're still choosing to get dressed.
(02:40):
Oh, okay.
Touche.
Yeah, that's still like, yeah, you could not put a shirt on.
But let me ask you this.
When you get dressed every day, do you get dressed in the same order?
Do you put the same things on in the same order every day?
(03:01):
I don't think so.
I just kind of do.
It's whatever is.
Is it an automatic process?
Do you go to get dressed and do you like think about it?
Do you think about like, I, it's cold out today, so I'm going to put warmer socks on
(03:22):
or anything like that.
Sometimes, sometimes.
And then I make wrong choices.
I guess maybe it's, I don't want to make choices in the morning.
That's the problem.
The other day I chose to wear pants instead of shorts because I thought it was going to
be cold at night.
Right.
And I suffered all day with pants being hot.
And then it turned out it wasn't cold at night.
(03:42):
So I was just hot all day.
So that kind of sucked.
So it is much easier if I just don't even just, if I go on autopilot and think about
it.
So actually that, that's a question.
Like what's the difference between, is a person actually going on autopilot when they say,
oh, I'm just on autopilot, just doing the, you know, doing the, doing the tasks, checking
off the things.
Right.
(04:03):
It depends.
Is that autopilot?
I mean, yes, and in some cases it is.
In some cases we have done things so many times, like I get in my car and I do not consciously
think about putting on my seatbelt.
Right.
Because I just, it just does.
I just do it.
But there are very few places in my life where that happens, where I just am in a situation
(04:31):
and I do a thing.
One of the only other ones I can think of is when I swap my laundry out, I don't think
about cleaning out the lint trap.
I just, I just do it.
It just happens.
I don't think about it.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't, I don't think about it and that's a problem.
So I don't do it.
(04:51):
If you don't think about it and you don't do it, it's a problem.
Like I don't, that's one of the only things.
Every other moment in my life I am making an active choice to do something.
And that is from what I understand now, I cannot speak from having a neurotypical brain
(05:12):
because it is not how I function.
And like I said, this podcast is talking to people who also have neurodivergent brains
and work in this way.
So when I, when I brush my teeth, I have to make the active, I have to make an active
choice to brush my teeth, to pick up my toothbrush, to put the toothpaste on it, to brush my teeth.
(05:37):
It is not an automatic process for me.
There is no autopilot that runs for that.
So I have very few instances of anything that I do through the day that runs on autopilot.
And this is a good kind of metaphor for exactly why executive functioning ends up being a
(05:57):
struggle for people with neuro spicy brains.
Because when you don't have the runway ready to go and you don't have, you know, there
isn't anything like there's no rails taking you on it.
There's no anything like, and you have to stop and you have to make a decision at every
moment of every, every part of your day, then that is, that is a drain on what is for everyone,
(06:26):
neurodiverse and neurotypical as well, a limited resource.
We all have a limited resource of decision making.
I remember many years ago, long, long before I had any inclination that I had ADHD.
I had traveled to see friends about six hours from where I live.
(06:50):
And I driven and you know, and that's driving is not an automatic process either.
You know, really is something and especially on a long drive, like I love, I love a long
drive.
I love loud music and driving.
That's a nervous system reset for me, you know, playing loud music and singing in the
(07:10):
cars.
I know I can reset my nervous system, but I had, I was tired, right?
I was fatigued from the drive and I get there and they're like, well, what do you want to
do?
And I'm like, I don't want to make any decisions.
I just don't want to decide.
I don't, I will very unlikely, like be unhappy with whatever decisions makes.
We had to decide if we're going, where we're going out to dinner, where we were going to
(07:32):
like all of these steps.
And I just, I just don't want to decide.
Like you pick, I don't, I don't care.
I know you're going to probably pick something I'm going to enjoy.
You just pick.
So that was my, my executive functioning was depleted at that point.
There's a, there's a comedian that does a joke that I love that I just heard the other
day.
(07:55):
He said, I'm so excited that they're opening up a new restaurant in town.
It's called, I don't care.
You decide.
So now my wife is actually picking a restaurant.
I was like, that was a joke, but it, it's interesting.
Many times there's a lot of people that like, yeah, choosing a restaurant.
(08:17):
Like, you know, sometimes, you know, whatever you're going out for a lunch thing with somebody
and it's, you've got three people and you're all sitting there and like, oh, you decide,
you decide, you decide, you decide.
Nobody's making a decision.
Right.
I, I get a little frustrated with that sometimes.
And I just, I'm just like, okay, I'll decide.
Right.
And I, I, I'm, I don't know.
(08:38):
I feel okay about that.
Just jump in and make a decision.
Well, if you're in a social situation where, where, where you're not feeling like responsible
or, you know, if you are, and everybody's like just pushing it off and you just are
the person that's the, you know, as one of my former coworkers would say, the one with
the bandhammer who just comes down and says, this is what we're doing.
(08:59):
Right.
Right.
And I often wonder though, you know, like I am just making the decision and it's almost
like when you're around people that are not making the decision and you just say, I'm
doing this, it almost feels like, you know, it's, it's, it's the Reddit board of a M I
the, am I the a-hole?
(09:20):
Right.
Because you feel like, oh, well, you know, I'm kind of an a-hole for doing this, but
it's actually, I would think, especially if you're dealing with somebody that doesn't
want to do these decisions and you just make the decision, it's, you could probably feel
good about that.
Right.
Right.
But also I guess on the other side, it's, you've, you've got to say, you know what?
I really don't care.
Right.
(09:40):
I really don't, you know, and you have to, and the people participating who say that
have to really not care.
Right.
Because if they do care and like, if this is an intimate relationship, if this is a
romantic partnership or your wife or your husband, and they say that, but they do care
and then it like fosters resentment, that's, that's a whole different, that's a whole
(10:04):
different conversation.
Yeah.
That's, I think there's podcasts there for that.
There is, there is potentially a podcast and, and maybe, you know, a podcast we can do is
like, after we kind of do this, like establishing what executive function is, like what, what's
the damage that having executive dysfunction can do to you?
Right, it can do to your relationships.
Where there's executive, where there's functioning, there's dysfunction.
(10:26):
There's dysfunctioning.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's.
Talk about that.
Right.
Well, and that's, that's what there is for people with neurodiversity and with ADHD and
autism is that is one of, it's, it's not a diagnosed, it's not a diagnosed, oh fuck.
(10:49):
Save that for the outtakes.
Yes, thanks.
Executive dysfunction is not a diagnostic criteria for ADHD.
It is not our autism.
It is not something that they're looking to measure, but because of the other functions
that they look at in your brain and how your brain works, it is often the outcome of it.
(11:13):
So because you, you know, I have a brain that is constantly taking in more information than
it can process.
So I'm, I, I experienced an onslaught information constantly.
Right.
And being able to prioritize and differentiate and choose what is important in that is really
(11:37):
hard.
And because one of the diagnostic criteria of ADHD is struggling with working memory,
which was one of the things that in my assessment was really low.
My working memory, working memory is your capacity to just keep in mind what's, what's
happening.
So, so often this plays out for, I, I miss things.
(12:01):
I will, I will.
My brain is slow to catch up.
So I will say, huh, and not realize that my brain is just half a sentence behind what
you've said.
The person I'm talking to will start to repeat it.
My brain will click into the original time they've said it.
(12:22):
Right.
And then my, and then I answer as they're repeating it.
And they're like, well, that wasn't a moment.
Right.
Exactly.
Like where did that come from?
Well, that's it.
And that is part of the dysfunction that people with neuro spicy brains will experience.
I used to work in radio.
And one of the things with radio is there's a ton of stuff going on at the same time.
(12:45):
Right.
Like, well now, you know, it's all just run by a computer and it's robots, but back in
the nineties, early two thousands, it was still, you know, push button.
You're putting on the next song, you're, you're picking out the music, you're picking out
the commercials, you're paying attention to what you're saying, you're reading cards and
you're taking in information, you know, sometimes in your headset as you were talking.
(13:09):
Right.
So super like multitasking, right.
You're thinking about 10 different things at once.
Similarly driving, right.
Like I mean, you know, you're, you're taking in all of this data coming in, listening to
loud music as well.
You're thinking about, you know, where you're going.
You're thinking about like all these different things.
You're thinking about the cars, you're looking for, you know, things that might happen on
(13:32):
the road.
Yeah.
Yep.
So I know that some people say, you know, multitasking is not great.
Right.
Sometimes, you know, like there, there's a pushback against multitasking, but I still
think there's places where it's just going to happen like the car or like, you know,
like like in a work situation, sometimes you just have to do that like a doctor and, you
know, like in the emergency ward, like you've got to deal with multiple things coming in.
(13:58):
So how do you with your neuro spicy brain handle multitasking?
Not well.
Well, I shouldn't say that.
It, it really depends on, on how much of my reserve of executive functioning I have left.
(14:18):
I can multitask.
I was thinking of it, you know, we were preparing for this episode this morning.
I was preparing to get my daughter out the door for school, which is a multi-step process.
You know, there are lots of different things that she has to do.
There's lots of different things I have to do.
So we're, you know, there's, there's a rhythm to this.
(14:39):
And I thought about it because there's this meme and, you know, at least a TikTok video,
if not a meme that, that I've been sent by several friends in the last few weeks of like
walking into the kitchen in the morning.
And it's got a video of somebody like walking into the kitchen and kind of like looking
around and like trying to like figure out like what needs to be done or whatever.
(15:05):
And then they just like scream.
And I think they might swear in the video.
It's like a TikTok sound.
But anyway, that, and the text says, you know, walking into the kitchen and needing to decide
what to do first, you know, like what, what is the priority?
Right.
And so this morning I had a really smooth morning.
(15:27):
So I have been making a pasta lunch for my daughter.
So I have to boil water, you know, to make the pasta for her lunch.
Right.
I also put on my kettle so that I can heat up the thermos that I'm putting it in.
So it will stay warmer for her, you know, whatever.
So these are two things that you do that are passive, right.
(15:48):
That just need time to be done.
Right.
You just need to start the water to boil.
Right.
So in the ideal setup, I remember to do that first because then I can go make her breakfast
while the water boils for her lunch.
Right.
Now there are mornings where I will start making the breakfast and forget to put the
(16:09):
water on.
And that puts me behind in time.
Right.
So, so like this morning was one of the smoothest mornings we've had in part because like she's
had the same things.
It's we're now a few weeks into school.
My, my practice has gotten a little better where like I know, okay, these are the steps
(16:30):
I need to take.
And I've got more of a more of a pathway for what for what setting up for breakfast and
making your lunch and stuff looks like, you know, so that that's the kind of example like
remembering to put the pot on to boil water first when you're making pasta versus if you
are making dinner, starting the sauce or whatever else, whatever other things like you might
(16:53):
be doing in conjunction with that, knowing that order and kind of like putting those
things in the order is.
So hearing this, it also sounds just like time management.
There is definitely, yes.
Time management is an executive functioning.
And along with that, and we can do an episode on this later, people with neuro spicy brains
(17:16):
tend to have what's called time blindness, where both we will get lost in a task.
If we're doing a task and we're in hyper-focus and we're like getting lots of dopamine from
that thing that we're doing, we would completely lose track of time.
Right.
I've talked about that before, forgetting, you know, body functions, forgetting other
things because you're so into this.
(17:37):
But in addition to that is the experience of not recognizing how long it takes to do
something.
So, obviously thought about this a lot this morning after I dropped my daughter off and
I was back in the kitchen again and I was cleaning up the dishes from making breakfast.
I was thinking about I was making myself a cup of tea and I had been putting off taking
(18:00):
the dishes out of my dishwasher because in my head, my ADHD had made this monolithic
task, this huge thing, all these dishes I needed to put away.
So I hadn't done it because it was this big thing.
So my tea was steeping and I had four minutes.
So I'm like, how many dishes can I put away in four minutes?
(18:23):
Without breaking them.
Right.
Without breaking them.
And how, you know, how much of this can I get done in this short period of time?
And I was able to not quite get all of it done, but I was able to get a significant
enough amount so that when I go back out there for lunch, I won't be annoyed at the fact
that the sink is full of, you know, dirty dishes because not only did I get the dishes
(18:43):
put away, I got the dirty dishes put in the dishwasher, right.
In that four minutes.
Because it really wasn't that big of a task.
But my, my ADHD brain that sees all of these possibilities and all of these things stacks
all that into every task.
So even though it's just take the dishes out, put them away and put the dirty dishes in
(19:05):
less than four minutes.
Right.
To do the majority of it.
In my brain, it was this huge list of things that I needed to do.
And the space I was in the last couple of days, I wasn't in a place to be able to focus
on it.
I was just asked to at least dishes have been clean since, you know, two days ago.
Let's good because now they're not hot when you take them out.
(19:27):
So, right, they are.
Yes, I know.
Yeah.
So I can multitask sometimes, but it is some, it is a struggle sometimes.
Okay.
So how do you, how do you like structure a task so that you can get through it without
(19:49):
distractions?
That's a great question.
Um, this, this is probably something that I struggle the most with.
Okay.
Because breaking down tasks into their steps.
Um, it takes a lot of executive functioning.
Right.
It takes a lot of that limited pool of being able to do things.
(20:12):
So for example, I have been making, I've been making bread, you know this, because we've
been talking about this.
I've been making bread.
And I'm kind of late to the making bread party because I didn't catch on in 2020 when everybody
was doing it.
So it's a few years later and I'm, I'm on the train of making like homemade bread and
(20:33):
I bought a bread machine because it does all of the kind of annoying work of the bread.
And when I go to make a loaf of bread, um, I ha I have now taught myself to think about
the fact that making a loaf of bread dirties only a bowl and two measuring spoons for me.
(20:55):
That's that's all it takes for me to be able to measure out and, and, and one measuring
cup and for like liquids and stuff.
And this is all it takes for me to be able to, to do this.
Like it's not, it's not this huge thing again, like I'm trying to break things down.
So whenever I go to make it, I just remind myself, you're not going to have a big mess
(21:16):
to clean up because making bread like can be very messy can be very intense.
Right.
Um, the bread machine cuts out a lot of the work of that and I don't have to have like
bowls and et cetera or whatever.
I just throw it in the thing, but breaking it down and like reminding myself that there's
not going to be a whole big mess to clean up, to do this.
(21:42):
It's just this short amount of time for you to measure out these ingredients, put them
in, put it in, and then it runs for like three hours and then I pull it out and I bake it
in my oven.
Right.
So that's, that's, that's a, that's a shortcut.
That's part of how I break the tasks down into starting to think about what, how small
(22:02):
can I make this task seem?
So I know some coaches that help people like create spreadsheets so that they remind themselves
that like emptying the dishwasher takes five minutes, putting the dirty dishes in the dishwasher
takes three, like, you know, whatever it is so that you start to teach yourself some of
(22:28):
that time management so that, so the tasks don't seem as big.
So I guess that's, that's definitely one thing, trying to make tasks seem the actual size
they are as opposed to the big one.
Another thing that I've done is like, I used to think when I cleaned my bathroom, I had
to clean everything.
Like I had to clean the shower, I had to clean the sink, I had to do the floors, I had to
(22:52):
do the toilet, like all of it.
Like I couldn't, and that's a sense of perfectionism, like every, I had to do all of it, right?
It had to be this huge monolithic thing to do as opposed to why can't I just clean the
sink and oh, if I just do the shower, it's just 10 minutes of me doing the shower as
opposed to, you know, an hour or two to do everything.
(23:14):
So that's one of the other ways that I've, that I've learned to break tasks down when
I look at a room, I don't have to clean the whole room.
Maybe I just pick up my laundry right now.
Right.
Right.
I would think so if you were, if you're a parent, if you're, if you're, you know, managing
(23:38):
somebody, let's say, you know, in a, in a workplace, that could also be something that
I would assume they could do to help the person that they're working with.
Absolutely.
Just instead of saying, oh, do this gigantic task, breaking it down into steps so that
they're getting one piece at a time.
(23:59):
Yeah.
And helping with the prioritization, like what, what needs to be acted on first.
If you give someone who has a spicy brain a huge project and they don't have the understanding
of what is important, when and why they might run into something called decision paralysis,
(24:25):
which is where you have run out of executive functioning.
Right.
And you cannot decide.
Right.
Paralysis is terrifying.
Right.
And well, and, you know, if you, if you recognize this and you're able to break these things
down and help them out to get to that point, you're going to avoid that and, you know,
(24:48):
get whatever project or whatever task, big task done because you've broken it up into
those smaller steps.
Yeah.
And I would assume that as now I'm asking this in this, in this kind of, you know, workplace
thing, but it's also, you know, it's.
You can apply this to yourself as well.
(25:09):
I'm just thinking in this, you know, like management kind of, you know, way of thinking,
because, you know, I host the DIY for business podcast, which I just plugged.
But the thing that I'm thinking about is, you know, okay, you've set up these sub tasks,
you've prioritized and you've made it so that it's a nice little path.
(25:33):
You're also doing check-ins along the way.
Are you like rewarding along the way?
Are you like, is there positive feedback, feedback along the path?
Like what does that do?
You know, and that's, you know, in dealing with another person, what about in dealing
with yourself?
Like you just, are you doing that for yourself as well?
I do now.
Yes.
Okay.
And I did like when I was working on my dissertation and I was trying to finish, you know, my
(26:00):
PhD, which I come back to a lot because a lot of, I did a lot of accommodating back
then and didn't realize that I was accommodating my ADHD.
And I used to joke that I celebrated everything.
(26:20):
Like I celebrated because I wrote an outline of a chapter.
I celebrated because I, you know, I finished an interview with somebody.
I celebrated because I finished a transcript.
I celebrated every time I finished a transcript because the transcript was awful.
There was no auto process.
Like there is, like there was no AI that was helping with transcripts back when I was doing
(26:43):
that work.
You know, it was, it was me with my computer and, you know, replaying, you know, sections
of text over and over again, because this is a scientific process and you need every,
you know, every little um and ah in that transcript.
So you know, every, everywhere I could, I was, I would celebrate.
(27:07):
And I still have a good portion of that.
Like I will reward myself with, you know, five minutes of scrolling on TikTok because
I finished cleaning the shower, you know, whatever it is.
And with some of those care tasks with things that I have to do around the house to take
care of myself, like taking care of the shower and cleaning the shower.
(27:29):
How it means the next time I go to take a bath, it's going to be a nice experience because
I'm going to be in a clean shower versus me looking at the bathtub going, this is gross.
I don't want to take a bath.
Right.
Right.
And so I try to remind myself what, what's on the other side of the unpleasant task that
might be enjoyable.
So okay.
We're talked about tasks and you just brought up, you know, your dissertation and going
(27:52):
through, you know, that huge process.
How did, how did this impact your learning style?
Like with, were there differences in the way that you were taking in information and you
know, did you, what, what adjustments did you make?
When I got my bachelor's, it was in literature and I had studied, you know, a lot of dead
(28:18):
white men writers.
My master's degree was the same.
I studied modernist writers and that's who I wrote about T.S.
Elliott and William Faulkner for my master's thesis.
And when I finished that, I was like, I am so done with dead white guys.
I don't want to do this anymore.
(28:41):
And so when I went into the PhD and I thought I was going to write about superheroes because
my first topic was going to be me writing about Wonder Woman and Buffy and all these
female heroes that I was in, you know, that I loved and I still love.
One of the, one of the changes as I was in that program was I don't, I don't want to
(29:01):
write about, you know, other people's writing anymore.
I want to actually talk to people.
I want to, I want to write about people who I'm interacting with.
And so just that alone was part of my process.
Like I felt like I had learned so much about understanding the human experience through
(29:22):
all of that literature that I had read and all of those stories and all of this beautiful
writing that was what I fell in love with.
Like, and I still love and still read plenty of fiction and still love all kinds of things
like that.
But I had come to a point where I didn't want to be looking at that anymore.
And I think that was part of, you know, maybe the special interests had kind of fallen away
(29:44):
that I had a bit of a hyper focus on just reading things and I needed it to, it needed
it to shift focus.
And so that's what I, that's part of what I did is I shifted focus from, you know, texts
to people.
And so just that is part of how like my learning process came.
And one of the reasons why I am doing this podcast is wanting, I want stories to be told.
(30:11):
Like I want people to have a space to tell their stories and I think the fact that we
have so many people recognizing their neurodivergence at these later points in their lives and how
rich and interesting and fascinating their lives are and sharing those struggles.
So people who are undiagnosed can figure out, it was a very empowering process for me to
(30:37):
get diagnosed.
It's not always that way for everybody.
Not everybody feels that way about getting a diagnosis.
And the more we talk about it, you know, the more normal it can become.
So all of that is, is part of my learning process and how I have kind of modified my
life to, to my spicy brain.
(31:01):
I don't know if I should ask you this because it's a big decision.
Should we end the podcast here?
Yes.
I think that was a really good moment.
The podcast.
(31:24):
Thank you so much for listening.
Do you struggle with executive functioning, decision paralysis, working memory?
Share your experiences with us on Instagram at Divergent Paths Consulting, no spaces.
Make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen, like and leave a review and share
with your spicy brain friends or sometimes share with your non-spicy brain friends so
(31:49):
they can learn and understand more about executive functioning.
And until next time, stay spicy.
I used to think when I cleaned my bathroom, I had to clean everything.
(00:05):
And that's a sense of perfectionism, right?
It had to be this huge monolithic thing to do.
As opposed to, why can't I just clean the sink?
And oh, if I just do the shower, it's just 10 minutes of me doing the shower.
As opposed to, you know, an hour or two to do everything.
I've learned to break tasks down when I look at a room.
(00:26):
I don't have to clean the whole room.
Maybe I just pick up my laundry right now.
Hello and welcome to Divergent Paths.
I'm your host, Dr. Regina McManamee.
I am a doctor, but not that kind of doctor.
(00:48):
And this is a podcast, not medical advice.
Have you always felt a little different, but didn't know why?
Have you struggled with tasks that some people seem to handle with ease?
Are you mystified by social norms and interactions?
Divergent Paths is a podcast for late diagnosed neurodivergent people to discuss their journeys
discovering the joys and frustrations of having a spicy brain.
(01:11):
Each episode, I will interview someone who discovered they have ADHD, autism, or a combination
of the two later in life.
What defines a later in life diagnosis?
Anytime the realization happens outside of the quote unquote norm of childhood and adolescence.
We've mentioned a few times that people with ADHD and autism often face issues with executive
(01:33):
functioning.
But what is executive functioning and how does it relate to having a spicy brain?
In this episode, Russ and I will explain everything you need to know about executive functioning.
So stay tuned and thanks for listening to Divergent Paths.
Why don't you just tell me what it is?
I'm just going to cut right to it.
(01:53):
Just what is it?
Executive functioning is the phrasing for how we make decisions.
So whenever you make a decision in your life, any decision, and that could be wearing a
black t-shirt versus wearing a blue t-shirt, that is you using your executive functioning.
(02:18):
Is it though?
Yes.
Because I'm just grabbing the same, like I have like 20 black t-shirts and I just grab
those.
It's sort of like the Steve Jobs things.
He would just wear the same thing because he didn't want to think about it.
He just wanted to get in and just do something else.
So is it executive functioning that I'm doing that or is it just like, okay, this is cool.
You're still choosing to get dressed.
(02:40):
Oh, okay.
Touche.
Yeah, that's still like, yeah, you could not put a shirt on.
But let me ask you this.
When you get dressed every day, do you get dressed in the same order?
Do you put the same things on in the same order every day?
(03:01):
I don't think so.
I just kind of do.
It's whatever is.
Is it an automatic process?
Do you go to get dressed and do you like think about it?
Do you think about like, I, it's cold out today, so I'm going to put warmer socks on
(03:22):
or anything like that.
Sometimes, sometimes.
And then I make wrong choices.
I guess maybe it's, I don't want to make choices in the morning.
That's the problem.
The other day I chose to wear pants instead of shorts because I thought it was going to
be cold at night.
Right.
And I suffered all day with pants being hot.
And then it turned out it wasn't cold at night.
(03:42):
So I was just hot all day.
So that kind of sucked.
So it is much easier if I just don't even just, if I go on autopilot and think about
it.
So actually that, that's a question.
Like what's the difference between, is a person actually going on autopilot when they say,
oh, I'm just on autopilot, just doing the, you know, doing the, doing the tasks, checking
off the things.
Right.
(04:03):
It depends.
Is that autopilot?
I mean, yes, and in some cases it is.
In some cases we have done things so many times, like I get in my car and I do not consciously
think about putting on my seatbelt.
Right.
Because I just, it just does.
I just do it.
But there are very few places in my life where that happens, where I just am in a situation
(04:31):
and I do a thing.
One of the only other ones I can think of is when I swap my laundry out, I don't think
about cleaning out the lint trap.
I just, I just do it.
It just happens.
I don't think about it.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't, I don't think about it and that's a problem.
So I don't do it.
(04:51):
If you don't think about it and you don't do it, it's a problem.
Like I don't, that's one of the only things.
Every other moment in my life I am making an active choice to do something.
And that is from what I understand now, I cannot speak from having a neurotypical brain
(05:12):
because it is not how I function.
And like I said, this podcast is talking to people who also have neurodivergent brains
and work in this way.
So when I, when I brush my teeth, I have to make the active, I have to make an active
choice to brush my teeth, to pick up my toothbrush, to put the toothpaste on it, to brush my teeth.
(05:37):
It is not an automatic process for me.
There is no autopilot that runs for that.
So I have very few instances of anything that I do through the day that runs on autopilot.
And this is a good kind of metaphor for exactly why executive functioning ends up being a
(05:57):
struggle for people with neuro spicy brains.
Because when you don't have the runway ready to go and you don't have, you know, there
isn't anything like there's no rails taking you on it.
There's no anything like, and you have to stop and you have to make a decision at every
moment of every, every part of your day, then that is, that is a drain on what is for everyone,
(06:26):
neurodiverse and neurotypical as well, a limited resource.
We all have a limited resource of decision making.
I remember many years ago, long, long before I had any inclination that I had ADHD.
I had traveled to see friends about six hours from where I live.
(06:50):
And I driven and you know, and that's driving is not an automatic process either.
You know, really is something and especially on a long drive, like I love, I love a long
drive.
I love loud music and driving.
That's a nervous system reset for me, you know, playing loud music and singing in the
(07:10):
cars.
I know I can reset my nervous system, but I had, I was tired, right?
I was fatigued from the drive and I get there and they're like, well, what do you want to
do?
And I'm like, I don't want to make any decisions.
I just don't want to decide.
I don't, I will very unlikely, like be unhappy with whatever decisions makes.
We had to decide if we're going, where we're going out to dinner, where we were going to
(07:32):
like all of these steps.
And I just, I just don't want to decide.
Like you pick, I don't, I don't care.
I know you're going to probably pick something I'm going to enjoy.
You just pick.
So that was my, my executive functioning was depleted at that point.
There's a, there's a comedian that does a joke that I love that I just heard the other
day.
(07:55):
He said, I'm so excited that they're opening up a new restaurant in town.
It's called, I don't care.
You decide.
So now my wife is actually picking a restaurant.
I was like, that was a joke, but it, it's interesting.
Many times there's a lot of people that like, yeah, choosing a restaurant.
(08:17):
Like, you know, sometimes, you know, whatever you're going out for a lunch thing with somebody
and it's, you've got three people and you're all sitting there and like, oh, you decide,
you decide, you decide, you decide.
Nobody's making a decision.
Right.
I, I get a little frustrated with that sometimes.
And I just, I'm just like, okay, I'll decide.
Right.
And I, I, I'm, I don't know.
(08:38):
I feel okay about that.
Just jump in and make a decision.
Well, if you're in a social situation where, where, where you're not feeling like responsible
or, you know, if you are, and everybody's like just pushing it off and you just are
the person that's the, you know, as one of my former coworkers would say, the one with
the bandhammer who just comes down and says, this is what we're doing.
(08:59):
Right.
Right.
And I often wonder though, you know, like I am just making the decision and it's almost
like when you're around people that are not making the decision and you just say, I'm
doing this, it almost feels like, you know, it's, it's, it's the Reddit board of a M I
the, am I the a-hole?
(09:20):
Right.
Because you feel like, oh, well, you know, I'm kind of an a-hole for doing this, but
it's actually, I would think, especially if you're dealing with somebody that doesn't
want to do these decisions and you just make the decision, it's, you could probably feel
good about that.
Right.
Right.
But also I guess on the other side, it's, you've, you've got to say, you know what?
I really don't care.
Right.
(09:40):
I really don't, you know, and you have to, and the people participating who say that
have to really not care.
Right.
Because if they do care and like, if this is an intimate relationship, if this is a
romantic partnership or your wife or your husband, and they say that, but they do care
and then it like fosters resentment, that's, that's a whole different, that's a whole
(10:04):
different conversation.
Yeah.
That's, I think there's podcasts there for that.
There is, there is potentially a podcast and, and maybe, you know, a podcast we can do is
like, after we kind of do this, like establishing what executive function is, like what, what's
the damage that having executive dysfunction can do to you?
Right, it can do to your relationships.
Where there's executive, where there's functioning, there's dysfunction.
(10:26):
There's dysfunctioning.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's.
Talk about that.
Right.
Well, and that's, that's what there is for people with neurodiversity and with ADHD and
autism is that is one of, it's, it's not a diagnosed, it's not a diagnosed, oh fuck.
(10:49):
Save that for the outtakes.
Yes, thanks.
Executive dysfunction is not a diagnostic criteria for ADHD.
It is not our autism.
It is not something that they're looking to measure, but because of the other functions
that they look at in your brain and how your brain works, it is often the outcome of it.
(11:13):
So because you, you know, I have a brain that is constantly taking in more information than
it can process.
So I'm, I, I experienced an onslaught information constantly.
Right.
And being able to prioritize and differentiate and choose what is important in that is really
(11:37):
hard.
And because one of the diagnostic criteria of ADHD is struggling with working memory,
which was one of the things that in my assessment was really low.
My working memory, working memory is your capacity to just keep in mind what's, what's
happening.
So, so often this plays out for, I, I miss things.
(12:01):
I will, I will.
My brain is slow to catch up.
So I will say, huh, and not realize that my brain is just half a sentence behind what
you've said.
The person I'm talking to will start to repeat it.
My brain will click into the original time they've said it.
(12:22):
Right.
And then my, and then I answer as they're repeating it.
And they're like, well, that wasn't a moment.
Right.
Exactly.
Like where did that come from?
Well, that's it.
And that is part of the dysfunction that people with neuro spicy brains will experience.
I used to work in radio.
And one of the things with radio is there's a ton of stuff going on at the same time.
(12:45):
Right.
Like, well now, you know, it's all just run by a computer and it's robots, but back in
the nineties, early two thousands, it was still, you know, push button.
You're putting on the next song, you're, you're picking out the music, you're picking out
the commercials, you're paying attention to what you're saying, you're reading cards and
you're taking in information, you know, sometimes in your headset as you were talking.
(13:09):
Right.
So super like multitasking, right.
You're thinking about 10 different things at once.
Similarly driving, right.
Like I mean, you know, you're, you're taking in all of this data coming in, listening to
loud music as well.
You're thinking about, you know, where you're going.
You're thinking about like all these different things.
You're thinking about the cars, you're looking for, you know, things that might happen on
(13:32):
the road.
Yeah.
Yep.
So I know that some people say, you know, multitasking is not great.
Right.
Sometimes, you know, like there, there's a pushback against multitasking, but I still
think there's places where it's just going to happen like the car or like, you know,
like like in a work situation, sometimes you just have to do that like a doctor and, you
know, like in the emergency ward, like you've got to deal with multiple things coming in.
(13:58):
So how do you with your neuro spicy brain handle multitasking?
Not well.
Well, I shouldn't say that.
It, it really depends on, on how much of my reserve of executive functioning I have left.
(14:18):
I can multitask.
I was thinking of it, you know, we were preparing for this episode this morning.
I was preparing to get my daughter out the door for school, which is a multi-step process.
You know, there are lots of different things that she has to do.
There's lots of different things I have to do.
So we're, you know, there's, there's a rhythm to this.
(14:39):
And I thought about it because there's this meme and, you know, at least a TikTok video,
if not a meme that, that I've been sent by several friends in the last few weeks of like
walking into the kitchen in the morning.
And it's got a video of somebody like walking into the kitchen and kind of like looking
around and like trying to like figure out like what needs to be done or whatever.
(15:05):
And then they just like scream.
And I think they might swear in the video.
It's like a TikTok sound.
But anyway, that, and the text says, you know, walking into the kitchen and needing to decide
what to do first, you know, like what, what is the priority?
Right.
And so this morning I had a really smooth morning.
(15:27):
So I have been making a pasta lunch for my daughter.
So I have to boil water, you know, to make the pasta for her lunch.
Right.
I also put on my kettle so that I can heat up the thermos that I'm putting it in.
So it will stay warmer for her, you know, whatever.
So these are two things that you do that are passive, right.
(15:48):
That just need time to be done.
Right.
You just need to start the water to boil.
Right.
So in the ideal setup, I remember to do that first because then I can go make her breakfast
while the water boils for her lunch.
Right.
Now there are mornings where I will start making the breakfast and forget to put the
(16:09):
water on.
And that puts me behind in time.
Right.
So, so like this morning was one of the smoothest mornings we've had in part because like she's
had the same things.
It's we're now a few weeks into school.
My, my practice has gotten a little better where like I know, okay, these are the steps
(16:30):
I need to take.
And I've got more of a more of a pathway for what for what setting up for breakfast and
making your lunch and stuff looks like, you know, so that that's the kind of example like
remembering to put the pot on to boil water first when you're making pasta versus if you
are making dinner, starting the sauce or whatever else, whatever other things like you might
(16:53):
be doing in conjunction with that, knowing that order and kind of like putting those
things in the order is.
So hearing this, it also sounds just like time management.
There is definitely, yes.
Time management is an executive functioning.
And along with that, and we can do an episode on this later, people with neuro spicy brains
(17:16):
tend to have what's called time blindness, where both we will get lost in a task.
If we're doing a task and we're in hyper-focus and we're like getting lots of dopamine from
that thing that we're doing, we would completely lose track of time.
Right.
I've talked about that before, forgetting, you know, body functions, forgetting other
things because you're so into this.
(17:37):
But in addition to that is the experience of not recognizing how long it takes to do
something.
So, obviously thought about this a lot this morning after I dropped my daughter off and
I was back in the kitchen again and I was cleaning up the dishes from making breakfast.
I was thinking about I was making myself a cup of tea and I had been putting off taking
(18:00):
the dishes out of my dishwasher because in my head, my ADHD had made this monolithic
task, this huge thing, all these dishes I needed to put away.
So I hadn't done it because it was this big thing.
So my tea was steeping and I had four minutes.
So I'm like, how many dishes can I put away in four minutes?
(18:23):
Without breaking them.
Right.
Without breaking them.
And how, you know, how much of this can I get done in this short period of time?
And I was able to not quite get all of it done, but I was able to get a significant
enough amount so that when I go back out there for lunch, I won't be annoyed at the fact
that the sink is full of, you know, dirty dishes because not only did I get the dishes
(18:43):
put away, I got the dirty dishes put in the dishwasher, right.
In that four minutes.
Because it really wasn't that big of a task.
But my, my ADHD brain that sees all of these possibilities and all of these things stacks
all that into every task.
So even though it's just take the dishes out, put them away and put the dirty dishes in
(19:05):
less than four minutes.
Right.
To do the majority of it.
In my brain, it was this huge list of things that I needed to do.
And the space I was in the last couple of days, I wasn't in a place to be able to focus
on it.
I was just asked to at least dishes have been clean since, you know, two days ago.
Let's good because now they're not hot when you take them out.
(19:27):
So, right, they are.
Yes, I know.
Yeah.
So I can multitask sometimes, but it is some, it is a struggle sometimes.
Okay.
So how do you, how do you like structure a task so that you can get through it without
(19:49):
distractions?
That's a great question.
Um, this, this is probably something that I struggle the most with.
Okay.
Because breaking down tasks into their steps.
Um, it takes a lot of executive functioning.
Right.
It takes a lot of that limited pool of being able to do things.
(20:12):
So for example, I have been making, I've been making bread, you know this, because we've
been talking about this.
I've been making bread.
And I'm kind of late to the making bread party because I didn't catch on in 2020 when everybody
was doing it.
So it's a few years later and I'm, I'm on the train of making like homemade bread and
(20:33):
I bought a bread machine because it does all of the kind of annoying work of the bread.
And when I go to make a loaf of bread, um, I ha I have now taught myself to think about
the fact that making a loaf of bread dirties only a bowl and two measuring spoons for me.
(20:55):
That's that's all it takes for me to be able to measure out and, and, and one measuring
cup and for like liquids and stuff.
And this is all it takes for me to be able to, to do this.
Like it's not, it's not this huge thing again, like I'm trying to break things down.
So whenever I go to make it, I just remind myself, you're not going to have a big mess
(21:16):
to clean up because making bread like can be very messy can be very intense.
Right.
Um, the bread machine cuts out a lot of the work of that and I don't have to have like
bowls and et cetera or whatever.
I just throw it in the thing, but breaking it down and like reminding myself that there's
not going to be a whole big mess to clean up, to do this.
(21:42):
It's just this short amount of time for you to measure out these ingredients, put them
in, put it in, and then it runs for like three hours and then I pull it out and I bake it
in my oven.
Right.
So that's, that's, that's a, that's a shortcut.
That's part of how I break the tasks down into starting to think about what, how small
(22:02):
can I make this task seem?
So I know some coaches that help people like create spreadsheets so that they remind themselves
that like emptying the dishwasher takes five minutes, putting the dirty dishes in the dishwasher
takes three, like, you know, whatever it is so that you start to teach yourself some of
(22:28):
that time management so that, so the tasks don't seem as big.
So I guess that's, that's definitely one thing, trying to make tasks seem the actual size
they are as opposed to the big one.
Another thing that I've done is like, I used to think when I cleaned my bathroom, I had
to clean everything.
Like I had to clean the shower, I had to clean the sink, I had to do the floors, I had to
(22:52):
do the toilet, like all of it.
Like I couldn't, and that's a sense of perfectionism, like every, I had to do all of it, right?
It had to be this huge monolithic thing to do as opposed to why can't I just clean the
sink and oh, if I just do the shower, it's just 10 minutes of me doing the shower as
opposed to, you know, an hour or two to do everything.
(23:14):
So that's one of the other ways that I've, that I've learned to break tasks down when
I look at a room, I don't have to clean the whole room.
Maybe I just pick up my laundry right now.
Right.
Right.
I would think so if you were, if you're a parent, if you're, if you're, you know, managing
(23:38):
somebody, let's say, you know, in a, in a workplace, that could also be something that
I would assume they could do to help the person that they're working with.
Absolutely.
Just instead of saying, oh, do this gigantic task, breaking it down into steps so that
they're getting one piece at a time.
(23:59):
Yeah.
And helping with the prioritization, like what, what needs to be acted on first.
If you give someone who has a spicy brain a huge project and they don't have the understanding
of what is important, when and why they might run into something called decision paralysis,
(24:25):
which is where you have run out of executive functioning.
Right.
And you cannot decide.
Right.
Paralysis is terrifying.
Right.
And well, and, you know, if you, if you recognize this and you're able to break these things
down and help them out to get to that point, you're going to avoid that and, you know,
(24:48):
get whatever project or whatever task, big task done because you've broken it up into
those smaller steps.
Yeah.
And I would assume that as now I'm asking this in this, in this kind of, you know, workplace
thing, but it's also, you know, it's.
You can apply this to yourself as well.
(25:09):
I'm just thinking in this, you know, like management kind of, you know, way of thinking,
because, you know, I host the DIY for business podcast, which I just plugged.
But the thing that I'm thinking about is, you know, okay, you've set up these sub tasks,
you've prioritized and you've made it so that it's a nice little path.
(25:33):
You're also doing check-ins along the way.
Are you like rewarding along the way?
Are you like, is there positive feedback, feedback along the path?
Like what does that do?
You know, and that's, you know, in dealing with another person, what about in dealing
with yourself?
Like you just, are you doing that for yourself as well?
I do now.
Yes.
Okay.
And I did like when I was working on my dissertation and I was trying to finish, you know, my
(26:00):
PhD, which I come back to a lot because a lot of, I did a lot of accommodating back
then and didn't realize that I was accommodating my ADHD.
And I used to joke that I celebrated everything.
(26:20):
Like I celebrated because I wrote an outline of a chapter.
I celebrated because I, you know, I finished an interview with somebody.
I celebrated because I finished a transcript.
I celebrated every time I finished a transcript because the transcript was awful.
There was no auto process.
Like there is, like there was no AI that was helping with transcripts back when I was doing
(26:43):
that work.
You know, it was, it was me with my computer and, you know, replaying, you know, sections
of text over and over again, because this is a scientific process and you need every,
you know, every little um and ah in that transcript.
So you know, every, everywhere I could, I was, I would celebrate.
(27:07):
And I still have a good portion of that.
Like I will reward myself with, you know, five minutes of scrolling on TikTok because
I finished cleaning the shower, you know, whatever it is.
And with some of those care tasks with things that I have to do around the house to take
care of myself, like taking care of the shower and cleaning the shower.
(27:29):
How it means the next time I go to take a bath, it's going to be a nice experience because
I'm going to be in a clean shower versus me looking at the bathtub going, this is gross.
I don't want to take a bath.
Right.
Right.
And so I try to remind myself what, what's on the other side of the unpleasant task that
might be enjoyable.
So okay.
We're talked about tasks and you just brought up, you know, your dissertation and going
(27:52):
through, you know, that huge process.
How did, how did this impact your learning style?
Like with, were there differences in the way that you were taking in information and you
know, did you, what, what adjustments did you make?
When I got my bachelor's, it was in literature and I had studied, you know, a lot of dead
(28:18):
white men writers.
My master's degree was the same.
I studied modernist writers and that's who I wrote about T.S.
Elliott and William Faulkner for my master's thesis.
And when I finished that, I was like, I am so done with dead white guys.
I don't want to do this anymore.
(28:41):
And so when I went into the PhD and I thought I was going to write about superheroes because
my first topic was going to be me writing about Wonder Woman and Buffy and all these
female heroes that I was in, you know, that I loved and I still love.
One of the, one of the changes as I was in that program was I don't, I don't want to
(29:01):
write about, you know, other people's writing anymore.
I want to actually talk to people.
I want to, I want to write about people who I'm interacting with.
And so just that alone was part of my process.
Like I felt like I had learned so much about understanding the human experience through
(29:22):
all of that literature that I had read and all of those stories and all of this beautiful
writing that was what I fell in love with.
Like, and I still love and still read plenty of fiction and still love all kinds of things
like that.
But I had come to a point where I didn't want to be looking at that anymore.
And I think that was part of, you know, maybe the special interests had kind of fallen away
(29:44):
that I had a bit of a hyper focus on just reading things and I needed it to, it needed
it to shift focus.
And so that's what I, that's part of what I did is I shifted focus from, you know, texts
to people.
And so just that is part of how like my learning process came.
And one of the reasons why I am doing this podcast is wanting, I want stories to be told.
(30:11):
Like I want people to have a space to tell their stories and I think the fact that we
have so many people recognizing their neurodivergence at these later points in their lives and how
rich and interesting and fascinating their lives are and sharing those struggles.
So people who are undiagnosed can figure out, it was a very empowering process for me to
(30:37):
get diagnosed.
It's not always that way for everybody.
Not everybody feels that way about getting a diagnosis.
And the more we talk about it, you know, the more normal it can become.
So all of that is, is part of my learning process and how I have kind of modified my
life to, to my spicy brain.
(31:01):
I don't know if I should ask you this because it's a big decision.
Should we end the podcast here?
Yes.
I think that was a really good moment.
The podcast.
(31:24):
Thank you so much for listening.
Do you struggle with executive functioning, decision paralysis, working memory?
Share your experiences with us on Instagram at Divergent Paths Consulting, no spaces.
Make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen, like and leave a review and share
with your spicy brain friends or sometimes share with your non-spicy brain friends so
(31:49):
they can learn and understand more about executive functioning.
And until next time, stay spicy.
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