January 31, 2025 • 33 mins
Perfectionism, for many neurodivergent folks, can look like a source of motivation but is most often a roadblock that keeps us stuck in cycles of procrastination, burnout, and self-doubt. In this episode, Russ joins me as the curious co-host to dig into the ways perfectionism uniquely impacts neurodivergent minds.
We talk about how perfectionism ties into masking, why it can make even starting a task feel impossible, and how societal expectations play into this struggle. I also share some personal experiences with perfectionism in my work and life, along with strategies I’ve found helpful for breaking free from its grip.
If you’ve ever felt like “good enough” is never good enough, this episode is for you. Tune in for an honest and insightful conversation about embracing imperfection and finding a healthier way forward.
🎧 Listen now and let’s keep the conversation going!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And when you're holding to some standard that's outside yourself, that is inherently inauthentic.
(00:07):
Because if it's somebody saying you need to be this way to be good, to be valuable, and
you don't feel good or valuable being that way, nobody's going to be the perfect teacher.
Nobody's going to be the perfect landscaper, whatever.
Nobody's going to be perfect.
(00:40):
Hello and welcome to Divergent Paths.
I'm your host, Dr. Regina McMenomy.
I am a doctor, but not that kind of doctor.
And this is a podcast, not medical advice.
Divergent Paths is a podcast where we explore the unique experiences and perspectives of
neurodivergent individuals.
Our Everything You Need to Know About series will take a deep dive into some of the common
(01:01):
characteristics neuro-spicy individuals experience.
Joining me for this series is my longtime friend and host of the business DIY podcast,
Russ Catanach.
In this episode, we are diving into a topic that resonates deeply for many in the neurodivergent
community, perfectionism.
We'll explore how perfectionism manifests, how it is often a coping mechanism and a challenge,
(01:24):
and some strategies we can use to navigate it.
As always, I'll share some of my personal experiences and we'll unpack ways to embrace
imperfection as part of the journey.
So stay tuned and thanks for listening to Divergent Paths.
My mom would sometimes say, oh, you're so perfect.
(01:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
My mom would say that to me as a kid.
And I just...
That she set a standard for you that was so high.
Yeah.
Was it a standard for me or was it not?
Because if you looked at my report card, it probably felt like it wasn't.
Rough years in middle school.
But I don't know.
(02:07):
I did another podcast about perfectionism a few years back and it felt a little like
therapy.
So I think talking about it today is also...
It's going to help too.
...feel a little like that because it's something...
I don't know if it really chases me or if it's something that I'm just hyper aware of
(02:28):
and concerned about because I don't want to make that an issue.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was just going to say for me, I feel like I'm hyper aware of it too.
Once I became aware of it and my tendencies toward it, I became very careful about the
standards I held myself to because...
Well, it's like with my kids too, right?
(02:51):
Yeah.
With your daughter.
It's like you don't want to say that.
You don't want to go there because it makes these unrealistic expectations.
Right.
And you don't want to make somebody where they're going to have to chase perfectionism.
Right.
Chase or hold themselves to an unrealistic standard.
(03:12):
That's really...
If we're going to come to a definition, which we probably should as we start the episode.
Exactly.
Right?
Perfectionism is holding an unrealistic standard.
Nothing human made is ever going to be perfect.
Nothing you make, nothing I make, nothing our kids make, nothing is perfect because
(03:33):
nothing holds to a standard of flawlessness because that's what perfectionism is.
So in the context of being neurodivergent, why do you think it shows up so often and
so strongly in some people?
I think there's a couple of root causes for it with neurodivergence.
I think the first one is when you feel different all the time and you don't know why you feel
(04:02):
different all the time, you strive to fit in.
So it kind of links to masking a little bit in that if I can be perfect, I will fit in.
Right?
Like if you're trying to get into that mentality of I'm on the outside and I want to be on
the inside, then that is like one I think trying to be perfect, trying to hold high
(04:25):
standards, all of that comes to setting this perfectionist goal.
And so I think that that's one part of it.
I think that a lot of people who are neurodivergent are also highly intelligent, which is something
we haven't really talked about in our interviews or in our everything you want to know about
(04:53):
topic episodes.
That intelligence sets you to a point where you often feel like you're really capable
and you can do a lot.
So the combination of feeling like you don't really fit in, but you're capable and competent
and can do a lot, I think very much is just like a super highway to I can be perfect.
(05:19):
And I think it's hard.
It's hard to pull away from it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And okay.
So with that, do you sort of have me thinking about, and I want to get your take on perfectionism
versus confidence versus just healthy confidence in being able to do something like where's
(05:41):
the line there in your mind?
For me, with my experience, when my perfectionism gets activated, it's not it's it's in response
often to not feeling confident.
So when I feel confident and I feel secure in something, I don't have to make it perfect.
(06:03):
Right.
When that makes sense, right?
When I'm insecure and I'm uncertain what I'm doing, I have this guiding principle that
I need to stay in whatever lines I'm supposed to be in and do whatever I'm supposed to do
exactly as I need to be doing it, because I'm uncertain of my footing.
(06:27):
So like, I'll use writing as an example.
I would definitely call myself an expert writer at this point.
Right.
Like, you know, more years experience writing than pretty much anything else.
You know, words are my first love.
Writing is the thing that I love to do the most.
(06:49):
And I used to have this exceptionally high standard for myself.
Like about the time I got into grad school, when I felt like my writing was really peaking,
you know, I knew in my undergrad my writing was still kind of growing.
And like I finished my senior project, like my capstone project for my bachelor's degree.
(07:11):
And the instructor for the class went and circled like how I use the same sentence structure
like in every sentence on an entire page.
And she's just like, you just have to get in the habit of breaking this up a little
bit.
And it was a real moment for me of I had just gotten stuck in a loop, which is a very kind
(07:32):
of autistic thing to do, honestly.
You know, I got kind of stuck in this loop for, you know, this sentence worked and it
was a correct thing, and I just did it over and over and over again.
So she opened my eyes to like, okay, like crafting a little bit more.
But at the same time, then that crafting got me thinking about, okay, I have to make sure
that all of the sentences that I, you know, that there's difference, that there's this,
(07:55):
that there's, you know, variability that, you know, so I got a little better, but I
also got a little closer to, oh, it needs to be this way if it's going to be perfect.
Right.
And so by the time I got to grad school, my standards were so high, it was almost impossible
for me to finish some of my assignments, like almost impossible for me to finish some of
(08:16):
my writing.
And I had to really step myself back from that and go, it needs to be good enough.
Like you need to stop at good enough.
And then I started to reframe, particularly with writing, it being good enough instead
of perfect.
(08:37):
So I feel like we've, we've talked a little about like not completing a project, right?
You know, with ADHD, you get to a certain point and you stop.
Is it the perfectionism?
Sometimes.
Yeah.
Okay.
It can be.
I mean, I don't know if it always is.
It depends.
Sometimes it's just the dopamine runs out of something and right.
(08:59):
It's just no longer exciting.
Yeah.
It's, it's, yeah.
It doesn't hold the, it doesn't hold the draw.
It did.
Like sometimes there's that like, oh, this is so exciting.
This is new.
This is novel, et cetera.
That keeps you kind of like moving.
(09:21):
And if that, yeah.
And okay.
So I, I'll ask this one with, and tell a little story here of, so I, when I worked in radio,
I worked with Ryan Seacrest for a while.
(09:42):
I remember.
And he was such a dedicated person to what he was doing and the craft.
And I would say there was definitely, you know, this like, he had to get the edits
like perfect to a call that, you know, and I'm stressing out because this call is going
(10:03):
to run next.
We need to push play.
We need to stop playing around and editing this call because I need to push play on it
in like 10 seconds.
And you're like editing out this little, right.
Right.
Right.
And it would always like stress me out.
And I don't know if it was, it was perfectionism for him.
(10:28):
I think it was just this, this just drive to like want to get to the next level of,
and level himself up.
But I mean, you know, maybe it was, I don't know.
I mean, I'm, I'm no doctor.
It sounds like there's like, you're talking about like a little bit of ambition kind of
mixed in there too.
(10:49):
And that's, that's where now I'm getting into that.
It's like, so we were saying confidence versus perfectionism.
What about ambition versus perfectionism?
Well, I mean, there are plenty of imperfect people who are ambitious.
Totally.
So I don't know.
(11:10):
Like I don't think maybe, maybe that's part of the crux here is there's, there's a difference
between wanting to be better and getting stuck or stymied in needing to be perfect.
And this story about Ryan Seacrest feels like a stymie.
(11:33):
It doesn't feel like he's really getting better because like the listeners aren't going to
care about that.
He's cutting out 10 seconds before the call needs to go live.
Like, right, nobody is listening to that that way.
But him, even you, right, right.
As you know, the tech, you know, you know, who's sitting there working with them, you're
(11:54):
not listening to it to that degree either.
And what's bad about that too is, you know, from a sound perspective and from a human
perspective is that those stumbles and those fillers are important to the authenticity
of what's being presented.
Right.
(12:15):
So I'm going to leave in, I'm going to leave in that mistake right there that you just
made.
Right.
Because those, those, those make it real, you know, and so, you know, trying to, it's
kind of ridiculous to even sit here.
It's like, like we know our media is edited and you know, now that we have, you know,
video sharing platforms and, and other things where people will stop and you will see the
(12:37):
cuts in the videos, right.
You will see the judge.
Right.
And you will see it.
You know that they cut something and to make whatever they are saying, you know, more cohesive,
which as someone who's coughing, because I'm, I'm coming over, you know, being sick in
this episode, so, you know, we've had a delay of episodes because I have not been able to
(12:58):
speak or record.
Right.
But I stopped like, like I want to hold my consistent standard with putting the podcast
out.
Right.
But it would have been detrimental to me.
It would have been frustrating for you as my editor to try to go through and edit a
show that I had been coughing or sneezing or, you know, we literally wheezing through.
(13:23):
Right.
And I'm still coming out of it.
I'm still not quite there, but I'm definitely better than I was.
But see, that's it.
Like I'm better than I was.
Right.
And I didn't push myself to meet my publication standard above my health.
Right.
And, and that, and there's something authentic in that too.
Like, like that's part of what I have to learn as someone who is neurodivergent, who's launching
(13:47):
a new consulting business, who is trying to do all of these things that are a hundred
percent out of my wheelhouse that are huge value to me, that I feel, you know, a good
portion of my identity is wrapped up in.
And I have to step back and say, you can do good.
You can do a good job.
(14:09):
You can set a standard for yourself that works and not drive yourself into the ground because
nobody is going to appreciate you when you've pushed yourself into the ground that far.
Nobody, nobody.
Like I said, like on the call, nobody was listening to Ryan Seacrest going, Oh my God,
did you hear that call?
There was not a single, um, in that call.
Nobody, nobody cared.
(14:31):
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
He was just chasing after this.
I want this crisp sound.
Perfect.
Throughout the show, you know, like that's, that's what I felt like that was the chase.
Cause I think he was always concerned.
Like, you know, is this the one that Simon Cowell is listening to?
Right.
Right, whatever it is, it's going to take him to where he's going, you know?
(14:51):
And that's it.
But like people aren't crisp and people aren't clean and don't speak that way.
You know, like when you, I was, I was watching some show and I was like, Oh, you know, it's
so nice sometimes that like people on TV shows, like scripted TV shows, they sound so good
because nobody talks like this in real life.
Right.
Oh, I know.
(15:12):
That's one of the frustrating things.
Like the Gilmore girls, right?
How fast they talk and how quick witted they are.
Come on.
Nobody can do that in real life.
Nobody gets close like this.
Quite that, you know.
Exactly.
Not happening.
I was doing improv last night and somebody broke on stage and they're just laughing.
And I just went, you know, went with it because it was hilarious.
Like everybody thought it was funny that they broke.
Yeah.
(15:33):
Yeah.
Like, okay.
Yeah.
And that's, you know, I had a story like that.
You know, there was my, my high school play when I was a sophomore in high school and
one of the characters mustaches was falling off through the whole episode, forgot the
whole episode, through the whole show, just slowly like sinking.
And he's like trying to push it up with his lip and like, you know, trying not to make
(15:54):
it obvious that, you know, he's, he's struggling with this.
And finally, it was like the last scene and it's literally like hanging off his mouth.
And I just started laughing and I, and then everybody else started laughing.
And then the whole audience started laughing.
And it is like one of my favorite stories of high school is about me blowing it, like
(16:16):
blowing it a hundred percent.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's like the best thing.
It's fun.
It is.
Exactly.
It makes for a good story.
It makes for a good story.
Yep.
Totally.
Okay.
So I feel like, and you know, you, you give me, you give me some, some questions, some
leads on this and I never go for them exactly, but I feel like we've, we've gone through
(16:39):
question one at this point.
I wanted to, to get a definition of perfectionism.
Really you got to look at, I wanted to look at, you know, like, let's look at some of
the things that it compares to.
One of the things that, and, and you know, now I'm going to totally throw it off again,
but the other things that this makes me think of is when you were talking in a previous
(17:02):
episode about masking and it feels like this sort of blends with that a little bit, like
perfectionism can like be a way of masking.
Yeah, it can, you know, if you feel like you're doing things wrong all the time, you know,
striving to do things perfectly is, is, is a part of the masking.
(17:24):
Like if I can just be perfect and then people can just see that I can do XYZ perfectly.
Like you think about maybe dance, right?
If you're, you're involved in dance and it's like, Oh, I can get all of the moves exactly
right.
Then everybody will know that I am, you know, perfect and so good at this.
And then if you don't do that and you beat yourself up at the end of it, then you kind
(17:48):
of get into this like really bad cycle of like, I have to be perfect to be valuable.
Right.
And so that's part of, I think for me that I think that was a big part of, of my masking
was wanting that sense of being a, I don't want to say perfect person because I never
(18:12):
felt like a perfect person, but being able to present myself in like the absolute best
light I could.
And in order to do that, I did a lot of people pleasing where I was saying yes to things
that weren't in alignment with what I wanted to do or with who I was because other people
wanted me to do them and to be that way.
(18:34):
And I think that when you're holding to some standard that's outside yourself, that is
inherently inauthentic, inauthentic, like unless it's, you know, because if it's somebody saying
you need to be this way to be, to be good, to be valuable and you don't feel good or
valuable being that way and those things are misaligned, then it is.
(18:59):
And so nobody's going to be the perfect teacher.
Nobody's going to be the perfect landscaper, whatever, you know, nobody's going to be perfect.
So trying to hold yourself to that, I think ends up kind of, you know, making the mask
(19:22):
even more, more, unfortunately more powerful because you're trying to hold to a standard
that just doesn't exist.
And then as with masking, it seems like there's, there's draining feelings, right?
There's feeling drained because of having to do all this and yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, exactly like, yeah.
(19:44):
Like if you feel like you need to be perfect in order to be on stage or you need to be
perfect.
Like I love to sing, but I don't, it is not something that I have a whole lot of experience
with.
I have some experience with it.
And I was taking, you know, voice lessons for a while and I had to drop off because
I just had too much other stuff going on in my life.
(20:07):
But I had one recital with my, with my new teacher.
And when I, you know, I did a little, you know, speech before my song, because I knew
I was going to, I knew I was going to mess up one part.
Like I had not managed in my rehearsing to get it the way I wanted it to be and the way
I wanted it to sound.
And I knew I was going to mess up and I was really uncomfortable going up to sing in front
(20:32):
of a bunch of people knowing I was going to mess this up.
Right.
So I, I, I said, and I gave a little speech at the beginning.
I said, one of the things I love the most about my voice teacher is anytime I made a
mistake during rehearsal, she would cheer.
She didn't admonish me.
(20:52):
She didn't tell me I was doing bad.
She didn't laugh.
I don't know, whatever, all the awful things that somebody could do.
She cheered because she believed mistakes were valuable.
Right.
And that was a profoundly different way to think about this.
(21:13):
Because for me, I had always thought you don't want to make mistakes.
You want to be perfect.
So I told that story.
I said, you know, because it was all students of hers.
And I said, you all know how this goes.
You make a mistake and she cheers for you.
Right.
And everybody starts nodding and clapping and laughing about it because they've all
had the same experience with her because she's their teacher.
(21:33):
And I said, this has been a really good process for me to break down some of my expectations
about myself because I have always held myself to a standard that I can't reach.
So I said, you know, all right, let's sing and let's make some mistakes.
And then when I blew the part, I knew I was going to blow.
I didn't care.
Right.
Right.
(21:54):
Right.
I mean, I feel like in that story, in my story,
about improv, it's almost like I don't know, the imperfections are more interesting.
They are.
They are.
Yeah.
(22:15):
Like you look at you look at a piece of like like a piece of furniture that is cut from
just a piece of wood and you see the knots in it.
Right.
Those are imperfections in the wood.
Right.
So the things that make the wood beautiful, it's they're the things that make that piece
(22:35):
of wood unique.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Why?
Why would we not want to?
I have to insert just a small story here about my small human.
So last night was her school's winter performance.
So they all put a show together and the littles do a little choir thing where they sing.
(22:57):
This year they did a little dance and it was adorable and my daughter's grade levels, they
produce their own like show.
So they write and produce and create the thing.
It's great.
So she was getting ready and she was just like, I'm going to wear some makeup and I'm
like, valid.
I'm like, you want to have some makeup on when you're on stage and stuff.
(23:18):
And so she went in, she was doing her makeup.
Now, when she was four, four or five, she got a cut on her eyebrow and she has a scar
and not it's not very big, but it does cut through like the hair on her eyebrow and you
can get like her hair parts around it on her eyebrow.
She comes out and she's like, I put some concealer on my on my scar so it would show up better
(23:42):
on stage.
And like that, like to me, that's like it's reassuring to me that's like, like she is
accepting that this not just as part of how her face looks, because I like I was, she
was young enough that like I could have done some like screens and stuff to try to like
(24:03):
get it to not heal.
Like with the scar, I could have tried to kind of like cut it, but like I didn't or
whatever.
So she has this little scar and I could feel guilt because here's my perfect child.
Right.
I've never called perfect in her life because I'm not setting that standard for her who
sees this imperfection and wants to make sure every other people see her imperfection and
(24:28):
like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, this all takes me to to to it when Harry met Sally.
I don't know why I blanked on that that movie, but the end of it.
Right.
Right.
Like I love that you get cold when it's 70 degrees out.
I love that little crinkle in your nose when you look at me like I'm crazy.
(24:50):
Like all of the you know, like in the song that goes along with that movie.
Right.
Like love you despite all your faults or whatever like, you know.
Yeah.
Or it's just like, I don't know.
It's I guess, you know, I mean, like I started with like, oh,
I've always been, you know, aware of the whole perfectionism thing and not wanting to chase
(25:14):
that because I heard that early in life.
And I don't want to say that to people or do that to people because I just feel like
that's, you know, not a not a good standard to hold anyone.
Right.
Whether it's a relationship or it's a child or whatever.
My cat, my cat is definitely not perfect.
So to some.
(25:37):
Right.
When you hear perfectionism, it could sound like a good thing, right?
Like, oh, I'm striving to be perfect.
What do you say to that?
I say perfectionism is a lot more limiting than you might think it is.
You know, I talked a little bit about like the importance of a growth mindset and striving
(26:01):
to be perfect is not a growth mindset.
It is a fixed mindset.
It is where you are trying to be something finished.
And the truth is, or the truth should be that we're never finished.
And you know, I think it was Da Vinci who had a quote that was no piece of art is ever
(26:30):
finished, only abandoned.
And I think that that falls that falls with this.
Like now here we have Da Vinci who are still talking about, you know, hundreds of years
later as being one of the amazing thinkers of the world.
And he was probably neurodivergent, by the way.
You know, as as this, you know, and and he kind of in some ways that embraces this idea.
(26:54):
Like, you know, you don't you don't necessarily finish and and none of us should finish and
we really shouldn't put pressure on ourselves.
For me, that's what perfectionism always says.
That idea of needing to be perfect is a pressure that I have put on myself my whole life to
attain a goal that is unattainable.
(27:16):
And instead, accepting who I am and the divergent path I'm on the the journey of growth that
I'm experiencing now that I accept more of who I am is a much more powerful thing than
I ever could have been had I ever achieved perfection.
(27:37):
How and I won't say how did you because I think I mean, that's always that's tough
one.
I don't know if you could say you've totally walked away from it, but not you start to
break free from that.
How do you when you see it happen, how do you recognize it and make a change?
That's a really good question.
A really hard question, because I will tell you that even in the last few days, I have
(28:00):
caught myself in this perfectionist mindset of, oh, I blew that.
The whole thing is ruined because I blew this one thing or I messed up one thing or had
one missed up and then this whole thing that I was really looking forward to is going to
come crashing down around me because I made one misstep.
So it is not something that I would ever say again, like perfectionism, I'm not past it.
(28:24):
I'm like the goal, like the end.
I am not past it.
It is still part very much part and parcel of my journey.
But I have an understanding now that allows me a level of self empathy that I didn't have
before.
And I don't really know how to tell someone to get to that other than to start surrounding
yourself with people who treat you with that kind of empathy, because once people start
(28:50):
treating you with that kind of empathy, it's a lot easier for you to treat yourself that
way.
Very nice.
Thank you.
I like that advice.
I think that was good advice.
If you want more advice like that, please seek me out as an ADHD coach.
Well, that's one of the things that we actually, you know, we don't talk enough about.
(29:18):
Which is sort of the point of this.
That is part of the reason why we launched this in the first place.
No, I mean, the conversation.
I hate to say it's the point, because really, it's like, I mean, people are getting so much
benefit from just hearing you share your story.
And you know, hearing me tell some crazy, like little weird story every once in a while.
(29:38):
Right.
Tell the side stories.
But you asked the questions in a way that that lets me have that empathetic response
to myself.
Like, that's one of the best things about this partnership is that you are approaching
these conversations with the kind of curiosity that is a growth mindset.
Because you are learning about this as I have learned about it, you know, and so there's
(30:00):
kind of the synchronicity in it.
But this is exactly what my coaching practice and my consulting practice is going to be.
I want to lead with curiosity.
I want to lead the people I coach and the people I consult with and the businesses I
consult with, with that growth mindset to get them past this black and white.
Whether you follow the way that we do things or you fail mindset, because that doesn't
(30:23):
help anybody's business.
That doesn't help anybody's life.
And you know, coming at this too, I mean, you know, the other podcast I host is a business
podcast.
And so I'm talking to business owners and hearing and, you know, living that life and
being a consultant of businesses for years and years and years and talking to all these
business owners.
(30:45):
This is needed.
You know, you originally told me about this whole thing.
I was like, this is, this is great because I, you know, I can see it coming into play
in so many different areas of a business.
Right.
You know, yeah, absolutely.
Well, it's great that you're doing this.
It's coming directly out of my experience with having entered a workplace that was so
(31:09):
unbelievably toxic to my, to my disability, to my ADHD, to my neurodivergence that I just,
I completely shut down in it and I had, I had to quit and all of this, this whole, I
had the idea for the podcast before that job happened, but the business came after because
(31:31):
I was like, I shouldn't have been subjected to this.
Nobody should be subjected to this.
And it shouldn't be, we enter a workplace and they don't know how to accommodate someone
who is an adult with neurodivergence.
That shouldn't be how it is.
We shouldn't be able to accommodate our children in the classrooms.
And I'm not saying classroom accommodations are perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
(31:55):
There's a lot more structure in place for supporting people in neurodivergence when
they're younger and not as much in the workplace and as we get older.
And I think it really is important to start to have conversations around how do we grow
this?
If somebody wanted to, you know, now, now it's like I'm interviewing a guest here, but if
(32:17):
somebody wanted to actually, you know, get your services, like actually bring you into
their business, how do they do so?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can go and book a discovery session with me on my website, divergent paths, consulting
dot com, which is in all the show notes for the podcast.
And you can search for and yeah, book that both businesses and individuals that are looking
(32:42):
for neurodivergent support and workshops or individual coaching, just book a discovery
session and we can talk and see what kind of path we can set out.
(33:03):
That's a wrap on this episode of Divergent Paths, where we explored the intricate dance
between neurodivergence and perfectionism, how it can feel like it will expire us to
achieve great things, but often holds us back when the pursuit of perfect becomes overwhelming.
If this episode sparks some insights or if you've got your own experiences with perfectionism
(33:23):
to share, I'd love to hear from you.
You can connect with me on blue sky at Divergent Paths Consulting.
Let's support each other in embracing progress over perfection.
Thank you for tuning in and for being part of this journey.
Remember you're enough just as you are and authenticity is the goal.
Until next time, keep striving, keep growing and embrace your divergent path.
And when you're holding to some standard that's outside yourself, that is inherently inauthentic.
(00:07):
Because if it's somebody saying you need to be this way to be good, to be valuable, and
you don't feel good or valuable being that way, nobody's going to be the perfect teacher.
Nobody's going to be the perfect landscaper, whatever.
Nobody's going to be perfect.
(00:40):
Hello and welcome to Divergent Paths.
I'm your host, Dr. Regina McMenomy.
I am a doctor, but not that kind of doctor.
And this is a podcast, not medical advice.
Divergent Paths is a podcast where we explore the unique experiences and perspectives of
neurodivergent individuals.
Our Everything You Need to Know About series will take a deep dive into some of the common
(01:01):
characteristics neuro-spicy individuals experience.
Joining me for this series is my longtime friend and host of the business DIY podcast,
Russ Catanach.
In this episode, we are diving into a topic that resonates deeply for many in the neurodivergent
community, perfectionism.
We'll explore how perfectionism manifests, how it is often a coping mechanism and a challenge,
(01:24):
and some strategies we can use to navigate it.
As always, I'll share some of my personal experiences and we'll unpack ways to embrace
imperfection as part of the journey.
So stay tuned and thanks for listening to Divergent Paths.
My mom would sometimes say, oh, you're so perfect.
(01:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
My mom would say that to me as a kid.
And I just...
That she set a standard for you that was so high.
Yeah.
Was it a standard for me or was it not?
Because if you looked at my report card, it probably felt like it wasn't.
Rough years in middle school.
But I don't know.
(02:07):
I did another podcast about perfectionism a few years back and it felt a little like
therapy.
So I think talking about it today is also...
It's going to help too.
...feel a little like that because it's something...
I don't know if it really chases me or if it's something that I'm just hyper aware of
(02:28):
and concerned about because I don't want to make that an issue.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was just going to say for me, I feel like I'm hyper aware of it too.
Once I became aware of it and my tendencies toward it, I became very careful about the
standards I held myself to because...
Well, it's like with my kids too, right?
(02:51):
Yeah.
With your daughter.
It's like you don't want to say that.
You don't want to go there because it makes these unrealistic expectations.
Right.
And you don't want to make somebody where they're going to have to chase perfectionism.
Right.
Chase or hold themselves to an unrealistic standard.
(03:12):
That's really...
If we're going to come to a definition, which we probably should as we start the episode.
Exactly.
Right?
Perfectionism is holding an unrealistic standard.
Nothing human made is ever going to be perfect.
Nothing you make, nothing I make, nothing our kids make, nothing is perfect because
(03:33):
nothing holds to a standard of flawlessness because that's what perfectionism is.
So in the context of being neurodivergent, why do you think it shows up so often and
so strongly in some people?
I think there's a couple of root causes for it with neurodivergence.
I think the first one is when you feel different all the time and you don't know why you feel
(04:02):
different all the time, you strive to fit in.
So it kind of links to masking a little bit in that if I can be perfect, I will fit in.
Right?
Like if you're trying to get into that mentality of I'm on the outside and I want to be on
the inside, then that is like one I think trying to be perfect, trying to hold high
(04:25):
standards, all of that comes to setting this perfectionist goal.
And so I think that that's one part of it.
I think that a lot of people who are neurodivergent are also highly intelligent, which is something
we haven't really talked about in our interviews or in our everything you want to know about
(04:53):
topic episodes.
That intelligence sets you to a point where you often feel like you're really capable
and you can do a lot.
So the combination of feeling like you don't really fit in, but you're capable and competent
and can do a lot, I think very much is just like a super highway to I can be perfect.
(05:19):
And I think it's hard.
It's hard to pull away from it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And okay.
So with that, do you sort of have me thinking about, and I want to get your take on perfectionism
versus confidence versus just healthy confidence in being able to do something like where's
(05:41):
the line there in your mind?
For me, with my experience, when my perfectionism gets activated, it's not it's it's in response
often to not feeling confident.
So when I feel confident and I feel secure in something, I don't have to make it perfect.
(06:03):
Right.
When that makes sense, right?
When I'm insecure and I'm uncertain what I'm doing, I have this guiding principle that
I need to stay in whatever lines I'm supposed to be in and do whatever I'm supposed to do
exactly as I need to be doing it, because I'm uncertain of my footing.
(06:27):
So like, I'll use writing as an example.
I would definitely call myself an expert writer at this point.
Right.
Like, you know, more years experience writing than pretty much anything else.
You know, words are my first love.
Writing is the thing that I love to do the most.
(06:49):
And I used to have this exceptionally high standard for myself.
Like about the time I got into grad school, when I felt like my writing was really peaking,
you know, I knew in my undergrad my writing was still kind of growing.
And like I finished my senior project, like my capstone project for my bachelor's degree.
(07:11):
And the instructor for the class went and circled like how I use the same sentence structure
like in every sentence on an entire page.
And she's just like, you just have to get in the habit of breaking this up a little
bit.
And it was a real moment for me of I had just gotten stuck in a loop, which is a very kind
(07:32):
of autistic thing to do, honestly.
You know, I got kind of stuck in this loop for, you know, this sentence worked and it
was a correct thing, and I just did it over and over and over again.
So she opened my eyes to like, okay, like crafting a little bit more.
But at the same time, then that crafting got me thinking about, okay, I have to make sure
that all of the sentences that I, you know, that there's difference, that there's this,
(07:55):
that there's, you know, variability that, you know, so I got a little better, but I
also got a little closer to, oh, it needs to be this way if it's going to be perfect.
Right.
And so by the time I got to grad school, my standards were so high, it was almost impossible
for me to finish some of my assignments, like almost impossible for me to finish some of
(08:16):
my writing.
And I had to really step myself back from that and go, it needs to be good enough.
Like you need to stop at good enough.
And then I started to reframe, particularly with writing, it being good enough instead
of perfect.
(08:37):
So I feel like we've, we've talked a little about like not completing a project, right?
You know, with ADHD, you get to a certain point and you stop.
Is it the perfectionism?
Sometimes.
Yeah.
Okay.
It can be.
I mean, I don't know if it always is.
It depends.
Sometimes it's just the dopamine runs out of something and right.
(08:59):
It's just no longer exciting.
Yeah.
It's, it's, yeah.
It doesn't hold the, it doesn't hold the draw.
It did.
Like sometimes there's that like, oh, this is so exciting.
This is new.
This is novel, et cetera.
That keeps you kind of like moving.
(09:21):
And if that, yeah.
And okay.
So I, I'll ask this one with, and tell a little story here of, so I, when I worked in radio,
I worked with Ryan Seacrest for a while.
(09:42):
I remember.
And he was such a dedicated person to what he was doing and the craft.
And I would say there was definitely, you know, this like, he had to get the edits
like perfect to a call that, you know, and I'm stressing out because this call is going
(10:03):
to run next.
We need to push play.
We need to stop playing around and editing this call because I need to push play on it
in like 10 seconds.
And you're like editing out this little, right.
Right.
Right.
And it would always like stress me out.
And I don't know if it was, it was perfectionism for him.
(10:28):
I think it was just this, this just drive to like want to get to the next level of,
and level himself up.
But I mean, you know, maybe it was, I don't know.
I mean, I'm, I'm no doctor.
It sounds like there's like, you're talking about like a little bit of ambition kind of
mixed in there too.
(10:49):
And that's, that's where now I'm getting into that.
It's like, so we were saying confidence versus perfectionism.
What about ambition versus perfectionism?
Well, I mean, there are plenty of imperfect people who are ambitious.
Totally.
So I don't know.
(11:10):
Like I don't think maybe, maybe that's part of the crux here is there's, there's a difference
between wanting to be better and getting stuck or stymied in needing to be perfect.
And this story about Ryan Seacrest feels like a stymie.
(11:33):
It doesn't feel like he's really getting better because like the listeners aren't going to
care about that.
He's cutting out 10 seconds before the call needs to go live.
Like, right, nobody is listening to that that way.
But him, even you, right, right.
As you know, the tech, you know, you know, who's sitting there working with them, you're
(11:54):
not listening to it to that degree either.
And what's bad about that too is, you know, from a sound perspective and from a human
perspective is that those stumbles and those fillers are important to the authenticity
of what's being presented.
Right.
(12:15):
So I'm going to leave in, I'm going to leave in that mistake right there that you just
made.
Right.
Because those, those, those make it real, you know, and so, you know, trying to, it's
kind of ridiculous to even sit here.
It's like, like we know our media is edited and you know, now that we have, you know,
video sharing platforms and, and other things where people will stop and you will see the
(12:37):
cuts in the videos, right.
You will see the judge.
Right.
And you will see it.
You know that they cut something and to make whatever they are saying, you know, more cohesive,
which as someone who's coughing, because I'm, I'm coming over, you know, being sick in
this episode, so, you know, we've had a delay of episodes because I have not been able to
(12:58):
speak or record.
Right.
But I stopped like, like I want to hold my consistent standard with putting the podcast
out.
Right.
But it would have been detrimental to me.
It would have been frustrating for you as my editor to try to go through and edit a
show that I had been coughing or sneezing or, you know, we literally wheezing through.
(13:23):
Right.
And I'm still coming out of it.
I'm still not quite there, but I'm definitely better than I was.
But see, that's it.
Like I'm better than I was.
Right.
And I didn't push myself to meet my publication standard above my health.
Right.
And, and that, and there's something authentic in that too.
Like, like that's part of what I have to learn as someone who is neurodivergent, who's launching
(13:47):
a new consulting business, who is trying to do all of these things that are a hundred
percent out of my wheelhouse that are huge value to me, that I feel, you know, a good
portion of my identity is wrapped up in.
And I have to step back and say, you can do good.
You can do a good job.
(14:09):
You can set a standard for yourself that works and not drive yourself into the ground because
nobody is going to appreciate you when you've pushed yourself into the ground that far.
Nobody, nobody.
Like I said, like on the call, nobody was listening to Ryan Seacrest going, Oh my God,
did you hear that call?
There was not a single, um, in that call.
Nobody, nobody cared.
(14:31):
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
He was just chasing after this.
I want this crisp sound.
Perfect.
Throughout the show, you know, like that's, that's what I felt like that was the chase.
Cause I think he was always concerned.
Like, you know, is this the one that Simon Cowell is listening to?
Right.
Right, whatever it is, it's going to take him to where he's going, you know?
(14:51):
And that's it.
But like people aren't crisp and people aren't clean and don't speak that way.
You know, like when you, I was, I was watching some show and I was like, Oh, you know, it's
so nice sometimes that like people on TV shows, like scripted TV shows, they sound so good
because nobody talks like this in real life.
Right.
Oh, I know.
(15:12):
That's one of the frustrating things.
Like the Gilmore girls, right?
How fast they talk and how quick witted they are.
Come on.
Nobody can do that in real life.
Nobody gets close like this.
Quite that, you know.
Exactly.
Not happening.
I was doing improv last night and somebody broke on stage and they're just laughing.
And I just went, you know, went with it because it was hilarious.
Like everybody thought it was funny that they broke.
Yeah.
(15:33):
Yeah.
Like, okay.
Yeah.
And that's, you know, I had a story like that.
You know, there was my, my high school play when I was a sophomore in high school and
one of the characters mustaches was falling off through the whole episode, forgot the
whole episode, through the whole show, just slowly like sinking.
And he's like trying to push it up with his lip and like, you know, trying not to make
(15:54):
it obvious that, you know, he's, he's struggling with this.
And finally, it was like the last scene and it's literally like hanging off his mouth.
And I just started laughing and I, and then everybody else started laughing.
And then the whole audience started laughing.
And it is like one of my favorite stories of high school is about me blowing it, like
(16:16):
blowing it a hundred percent.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's like the best thing.
It's fun.
It is.
Exactly.
It makes for a good story.
It makes for a good story.
Yep.
Totally.
Okay.
So I feel like, and you know, you, you give me, you give me some, some questions, some
leads on this and I never go for them exactly, but I feel like we've, we've gone through
(16:39):
question one at this point.
I wanted to, to get a definition of perfectionism.
Really you got to look at, I wanted to look at, you know, like, let's look at some of
the things that it compares to.
One of the things that, and, and you know, now I'm going to totally throw it off again,
but the other things that this makes me think of is when you were talking in a previous
(17:02):
episode about masking and it feels like this sort of blends with that a little bit, like
perfectionism can like be a way of masking.
Yeah, it can, you know, if you feel like you're doing things wrong all the time, you know,
striving to do things perfectly is, is, is a part of the masking.
(17:24):
Like if I can just be perfect and then people can just see that I can do XYZ perfectly.
Like you think about maybe dance, right?
If you're, you're involved in dance and it's like, Oh, I can get all of the moves exactly
right.
Then everybody will know that I am, you know, perfect and so good at this.
And then if you don't do that and you beat yourself up at the end of it, then you kind
(17:48):
of get into this like really bad cycle of like, I have to be perfect to be valuable.
Right.
And so that's part of, I think for me that I think that was a big part of, of my masking
was wanting that sense of being a, I don't want to say perfect person because I never
(18:12):
felt like a perfect person, but being able to present myself in like the absolute best
light I could.
And in order to do that, I did a lot of people pleasing where I was saying yes to things
that weren't in alignment with what I wanted to do or with who I was because other people
wanted me to do them and to be that way.
(18:34):
And I think that when you're holding to some standard that's outside yourself, that is
inherently inauthentic, inauthentic, like unless it's, you know, because if it's somebody saying
you need to be this way to be, to be good, to be valuable and you don't feel good or
valuable being that way and those things are misaligned, then it is.
(18:59):
And so nobody's going to be the perfect teacher.
Nobody's going to be the perfect landscaper, whatever, you know, nobody's going to be perfect.
So trying to hold yourself to that, I think ends up kind of, you know, making the mask
(19:22):
even more, more, unfortunately more powerful because you're trying to hold to a standard
that just doesn't exist.
And then as with masking, it seems like there's, there's draining feelings, right?
There's feeling drained because of having to do all this and yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, exactly like, yeah.
(19:44):
Like if you feel like you need to be perfect in order to be on stage or you need to be
perfect.
Like I love to sing, but I don't, it is not something that I have a whole lot of experience
with.
I have some experience with it.
And I was taking, you know, voice lessons for a while and I had to drop off because
I just had too much other stuff going on in my life.
(20:07):
But I had one recital with my, with my new teacher.
And when I, you know, I did a little, you know, speech before my song, because I knew
I was going to, I knew I was going to mess up one part.
Like I had not managed in my rehearsing to get it the way I wanted it to be and the way
I wanted it to sound.
And I knew I was going to mess up and I was really uncomfortable going up to sing in front
(20:32):
of a bunch of people knowing I was going to mess this up.
Right.
So I, I, I said, and I gave a little speech at the beginning.
I said, one of the things I love the most about my voice teacher is anytime I made a
mistake during rehearsal, she would cheer.
She didn't admonish me.
(20:52):
She didn't tell me I was doing bad.
She didn't laugh.
I don't know, whatever, all the awful things that somebody could do.
She cheered because she believed mistakes were valuable.
Right.
And that was a profoundly different way to think about this.
(21:13):
Because for me, I had always thought you don't want to make mistakes.
You want to be perfect.
So I told that story.
I said, you know, because it was all students of hers.
And I said, you all know how this goes.
You make a mistake and she cheers for you.
Right.
And everybody starts nodding and clapping and laughing about it because they've all
had the same experience with her because she's their teacher.
(21:33):
And I said, this has been a really good process for me to break down some of my expectations
about myself because I have always held myself to a standard that I can't reach.
So I said, you know, all right, let's sing and let's make some mistakes.
And then when I blew the part, I knew I was going to blow.
I didn't care.
Right.
Right.
(21:54):
Right.
I mean, I feel like in that story, in my story,
about improv, it's almost like I don't know, the imperfections are more interesting.
They are.
They are.
Yeah.
(22:15):
Like you look at you look at a piece of like like a piece of furniture that is cut from
just a piece of wood and you see the knots in it.
Right.
Those are imperfections in the wood.
Right.
So the things that make the wood beautiful, it's they're the things that make that piece
(22:35):
of wood unique.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Why?
Why would we not want to?
I have to insert just a small story here about my small human.
So last night was her school's winter performance.
So they all put a show together and the littles do a little choir thing where they sing.
(22:57):
This year they did a little dance and it was adorable and my daughter's grade levels, they
produce their own like show.
So they write and produce and create the thing.
It's great.
So she was getting ready and she was just like, I'm going to wear some makeup and I'm
like, valid.
I'm like, you want to have some makeup on when you're on stage and stuff.
(23:18):
And so she went in, she was doing her makeup.
Now, when she was four, four or five, she got a cut on her eyebrow and she has a scar
and not it's not very big, but it does cut through like the hair on her eyebrow and you
can get like her hair parts around it on her eyebrow.
She comes out and she's like, I put some concealer on my on my scar so it would show up better
(23:42):
on stage.
And like that, like to me, that's like it's reassuring to me that's like, like she is
accepting that this not just as part of how her face looks, because I like I was, she
was young enough that like I could have done some like screens and stuff to try to like
(24:03):
get it to not heal.
Like with the scar, I could have tried to kind of like cut it, but like I didn't or
whatever.
So she has this little scar and I could feel guilt because here's my perfect child.
Right.
I've never called perfect in her life because I'm not setting that standard for her who
sees this imperfection and wants to make sure every other people see her imperfection and
(24:28):
like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, this all takes me to to to it when Harry met Sally.
I don't know why I blanked on that that movie, but the end of it.
Right.
Right.
Like I love that you get cold when it's 70 degrees out.
I love that little crinkle in your nose when you look at me like I'm crazy.
(24:50):
Like all of the you know, like in the song that goes along with that movie.
Right.
Like love you despite all your faults or whatever like, you know.
Yeah.
Or it's just like, I don't know.
It's I guess, you know, I mean, like I started with like, oh,
I've always been, you know, aware of the whole perfectionism thing and not wanting to chase
(25:14):
that because I heard that early in life.
And I don't want to say that to people or do that to people because I just feel like
that's, you know, not a not a good standard to hold anyone.
Right.
Whether it's a relationship or it's a child or whatever.
My cat, my cat is definitely not perfect.
So to some.
(25:37):
Right.
When you hear perfectionism, it could sound like a good thing, right?
Like, oh, I'm striving to be perfect.
What do you say to that?
I say perfectionism is a lot more limiting than you might think it is.
You know, I talked a little bit about like the importance of a growth mindset and striving
(26:01):
to be perfect is not a growth mindset.
It is a fixed mindset.
It is where you are trying to be something finished.
And the truth is, or the truth should be that we're never finished.
And you know, I think it was Da Vinci who had a quote that was no piece of art is ever
(26:30):
finished, only abandoned.
And I think that that falls that falls with this.
Like now here we have Da Vinci who are still talking about, you know, hundreds of years
later as being one of the amazing thinkers of the world.
And he was probably neurodivergent, by the way.
You know, as as this, you know, and and he kind of in some ways that embraces this idea.
(26:54):
Like, you know, you don't you don't necessarily finish and and none of us should finish and
we really shouldn't put pressure on ourselves.
For me, that's what perfectionism always says.
That idea of needing to be perfect is a pressure that I have put on myself my whole life to
attain a goal that is unattainable.
(27:16):
And instead, accepting who I am and the divergent path I'm on the the journey of growth that
I'm experiencing now that I accept more of who I am is a much more powerful thing than
I ever could have been had I ever achieved perfection.
(27:37):
How and I won't say how did you because I think I mean, that's always that's tough
one.
I don't know if you could say you've totally walked away from it, but not you start to
break free from that.
How do you when you see it happen, how do you recognize it and make a change?
That's a really good question.
A really hard question, because I will tell you that even in the last few days, I have
(28:00):
caught myself in this perfectionist mindset of, oh, I blew that.
The whole thing is ruined because I blew this one thing or I messed up one thing or had
one missed up and then this whole thing that I was really looking forward to is going to
come crashing down around me because I made one misstep.
So it is not something that I would ever say again, like perfectionism, I'm not past it.
(28:24):
I'm like the goal, like the end.
I am not past it.
It is still part very much part and parcel of my journey.
But I have an understanding now that allows me a level of self empathy that I didn't have
before.
And I don't really know how to tell someone to get to that other than to start surrounding
yourself with people who treat you with that kind of empathy, because once people start
(28:50):
treating you with that kind of empathy, it's a lot easier for you to treat yourself that
way.
Very nice.
Thank you.
I like that advice.
I think that was good advice.
If you want more advice like that, please seek me out as an ADHD coach.
Well, that's one of the things that we actually, you know, we don't talk enough about.
(29:18):
Which is sort of the point of this.
That is part of the reason why we launched this in the first place.
No, I mean, the conversation.
I hate to say it's the point, because really, it's like, I mean, people are getting so much
benefit from just hearing you share your story.
And you know, hearing me tell some crazy, like little weird story every once in a while.
(29:38):
Right.
Tell the side stories.
But you asked the questions in a way that that lets me have that empathetic response
to myself.
Like, that's one of the best things about this partnership is that you are approaching
these conversations with the kind of curiosity that is a growth mindset.
Because you are learning about this as I have learned about it, you know, and so there's
(30:00):
kind of the synchronicity in it.
But this is exactly what my coaching practice and my consulting practice is going to be.
I want to lead with curiosity.
I want to lead the people I coach and the people I consult with and the businesses I
consult with, with that growth mindset to get them past this black and white.
Whether you follow the way that we do things or you fail mindset, because that doesn't
(30:23):
help anybody's business.
That doesn't help anybody's life.
And you know, coming at this too, I mean, you know, the other podcast I host is a business
podcast.
And so I'm talking to business owners and hearing and, you know, living that life and
being a consultant of businesses for years and years and years and talking to all these
business owners.
(30:45):
This is needed.
You know, you originally told me about this whole thing.
I was like, this is, this is great because I, you know, I can see it coming into play
in so many different areas of a business.
Right.
You know, yeah, absolutely.
Well, it's great that you're doing this.
It's coming directly out of my experience with having entered a workplace that was so
(31:09):
unbelievably toxic to my, to my disability, to my ADHD, to my neurodivergence that I just,
I completely shut down in it and I had, I had to quit and all of this, this whole, I
had the idea for the podcast before that job happened, but the business came after because
(31:31):
I was like, I shouldn't have been subjected to this.
Nobody should be subjected to this.
And it shouldn't be, we enter a workplace and they don't know how to accommodate someone
who is an adult with neurodivergence.
That shouldn't be how it is.
We shouldn't be able to accommodate our children in the classrooms.
And I'm not saying classroom accommodations are perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
(31:55):
There's a lot more structure in place for supporting people in neurodivergence when
they're younger and not as much in the workplace and as we get older.
And I think it really is important to start to have conversations around how do we grow
this?
If somebody wanted to, you know, now, now it's like I'm interviewing a guest here, but if
(32:17):
somebody wanted to actually, you know, get your services, like actually bring you into
their business, how do they do so?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can go and book a discovery session with me on my website, divergent paths, consulting
dot com, which is in all the show notes for the podcast.
And you can search for and yeah, book that both businesses and individuals that are looking
(32:42):
for neurodivergent support and workshops or individual coaching, just book a discovery
session and we can talk and see what kind of path we can set out.
(33:03):
That's a wrap on this episode of Divergent Paths, where we explored the intricate dance
between neurodivergence and perfectionism, how it can feel like it will expire us to
achieve great things, but often holds us back when the pursuit of perfect becomes overwhelming.
If this episode sparks some insights or if you've got your own experiences with perfectionism
(33:23):
to share, I'd love to hear from you.
You can connect with me on blue sky at Divergent Paths Consulting.
Let's support each other in embracing progress over perfection.
Thank you for tuning in and for being part of this journey.
Remember you're enough just as you are and authenticity is the goal.
Until next time, keep striving, keep growing and embrace your divergent path.
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