March 7, 2025 • 48 mins
Clutter—some of us thrive in it, some of us drown in it, and for many neurodivergent folks, it’s a constant battle. In this episode, Russ joins me as the curious co-host to explore the complicated relationship between clutter, executive function, and neurodivergence.
We talk about why traditional organizing methods don’t always work for ADHD and autistic brains, how clutter impacts our mental health, and the emotional weight of "stuff." I also share some personal experiences with clutter, what’s helped me manage it (or at least make peace with it), and why a perfectly organized space isn’t always the goal.
If you’ve ever struggled with clutter, felt overwhelmed by your environment, or wondered why "just clean it up" isn’t that simple, this episode is for you.
🎧 Tune in now for an honest, judgment-free conversation about clutter, creativity, and finding systems that actually work!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
There is literally no dopamine in any kind of paperwork for me.
(00:07):
None whatsoever.
Managing bills, managing paperwork, managing taxes.
There is no happy making chemicals in any of that.
It is just drain.
(00:33):
Hello and welcome to Divergent Paths, the podcast where we explore life through the
lens of neurodivergence, creativity, and innovation.
I'm your host, Dr. Regina McMenomy, here to navigate the winding roads of neurodivergent
experiences with insight, humor, and a touch of lived wisdom.
In this episode, we're diving into a topic that resonates with many neurodivergent individuals
(00:55):
– clutter.
Whether it's the piles of projects we've started, the papers we meant to organize,
or the sentimental items we can't quite let go of, clutter is often more than just
physical – it's emotional and mental too.
We'll unpack the unique ways neurodivergence intersects with clutter, share personal stories,
and discuss strategies to manage and embrace it in our lives.
(01:16):
Joining me is Russ, host of the DIY Business Podcast, who's here to help guide this conversation
with thoughtful and curious questions.
Let's dive into the beautifully chaotic world of clutter and explore why it's more
than just stuff for so many of us.
So stay tuned and thanks for listening to Divergent Paths.
(01:37):
So how's the new office?
The new recording studio?
It's in process.
It's in process.
Okay.
Yes.
Well, from the camera looks, everything looks…
It looks great from here.
Yes, that's because the tape is just off the camera.
(01:59):
So an episode on clutter.
I'm wondering because here's my thing.
If there's clutter in this space, like right now I do have some stuff on the other side
of the camera that's kind of not great looking.
Like I literally have like a Christmas decoration and it's, you know, as of recording this several
weeks past Christmas.
(02:19):
Yes.
Almost a month.
Almost a full month past Christmas.
Yeah, because I have to repair it.
I have to get some super glue and fix some things.
So I left it here and it's been sitting there and it's annoying the heck out of me.
And I got this new cool monitor, but there's some old monitor parts there.
There's this clutter that just, I don't like.
(02:39):
It's distracting to me.
Okay.
Because it makes me think of these things that I have to do.
So that's what clutter means to me.
But what does clutter mean to a neurodivergent person?
Well, I mean, you know, all of that is true.
Which could be me.
Right.
Exactly.
Which might possibly be you.
Yet to be determined.
(03:00):
Yeah.
That's an episode for the future.
Season finale maybe.
Yes.
So that is true, you know, for neurodivergent people, clutter is a constant battle, physical
clutter.
But also I would say that my neurodivergence and specifically my ADHD makes my brain a
(03:25):
cluttered place as well.
So isn't it, don't people, isn't there some saying it's like cluttered place, clear
mind or clear mind clutter?
Probably something along those lines.
I mean, you know, there's a saying for everything.
Yeah.
I can't say that it actually makes sense.
(03:45):
But if clutter around you, does that mean also clutter inside for you?
I think I have, I constantly have both.
And I think one of the things that I've started to recognize about my relationship with physical
clutter is the fact that my brain is always so cluttered.
(04:08):
I don't always see the physical clutter.
So I will have a space that will get cluttered up and I will not even recognize that it has
gotten cluttered until I can't see anything else but the clutter.
And it becomes like you're talking about right now with the Christmas decoration and, you
(04:32):
know, the monitor parts or whatever as like kind of bugging you.
I don't have that.
It bugs me until I get to a place where there isn't anything else that I can see, which
is either it has gotten to a point where it is so big that it's getting in the way of
other things or my hyper focus just decides to fixate on it for whatever reason.
(04:57):
So it's sort of, I guess I would say it overstimulates me to have that there because I'm like, oh,
I want to go take care of this.
I got to go get super glue.
I keep forgetting to get super glue.
I got to do that.
When the clutter is in your mind, is that overstimulation as well?
(05:22):
Oh, yes.
Absolutely.
And that's when I talked about going on the ADHD medication, that's part of what happened
was like there was an internal decluttering.
And so because things are more regulated just in my brain, my nervous system is more regulated
and that gives me more space to actually be able to perceive my physical area in a way
(05:48):
that I generally that I hadn't before.
And one of the things like if I am wondering if someone I know is neurodivergent, one of
the things I will look at is what the flat areas in their household look like.
(06:08):
So for me, I got rid of my dresser in my bedroom.
I can't remember if I've told this story before.
Have I told this story to you before?
I don't think so.
Okay.
I had a big double wide long dresser in my bedroom and there are two things that happen
with it.
For a lot of neurodivergent folk, when you can't see something, it doesn't exist.
(06:35):
So we tend to have a lot of stuff around us visually because I will often forget to take
my vitamins.
If I tried to put them away or put them in the medicine cabinet, I would never remember
to take my vitamins or now that I am older, my medications.
My medications have to be out so I see them.
(06:55):
I have medications I take in the morning.
I have medications I take at bedtime and they have to be out on my bedside table in plain
sight so I remember to take them.
And I have alarms set up and I have systems set up to remember to take my meds, but they
need to be where I can see them.
So if I can't see it, it doesn't exist is very much a reality.
So what happened with my dresser was twofold.
(07:18):
I would forget the clothes I had in my dresser drawers.
I would completely forget that I even had them.
I would open a dresser drawer and be like, oh, that's right.
I have all of these leggings.
I have all this exercise stuff.
I have all this all this stuff.
I would just completely forget that it existed and I would never wear it.
(07:38):
And then in addition, the dresser was a flat space, a horizontal flat space that stuff
just collected on.
And this is the exact example of what I'm talking about where I wouldn't see it until
it was all I could see and then I would have to clean up everything that was on it.
And so I have been in the process in the last few years, my recognition of my neurodivergence
(08:04):
and understanding that I need places for things.
And one of the things I have now is to keep stuff from collecting on my kitchen counter
where I need to do food prep and work and stuff.
I keep a bin on the other side of the kitchen wall because I don't have doors.
I have archways between my living room and my kitchen.
(08:25):
On the living room archway wall is a table that has a bin.
And I put the stuff that I would normally collect on the kitchen counter, just random
stuff like mail I have to deal with or things that need to be put away in my bedroom or
whatever.
Instead of just piling them on the kitchen counter where I will stop seeing them until
(08:45):
I need to move them to cook, I just put them in that bin.
And then when that bin is full, in theory, in theory when that bin is full, I will empty
it.
So I tried to do that with my dresser.
It didn't work.
And I realized that for my clothes, I just needed to be able to see everything.
So now I can step into my closet and everything in my closet is visible.
(09:07):
I can see every piece of clothing I have from standing in one place in my closet.
I can see everything.
And that is the best system I have had for my closet ever.
What do you do about junk drawers?
Well, junk drawers.
I have a junk drawer, but it is reasonably organized because a junk drawer should have
(09:28):
a purpose like it.
You know, Rachel from Serenna Space, who was a professional organizer we had on episode
three or four, says, you know, junk doors have a purpose.
They serve a purpose.
You put all the little fussy things that you need, like once a year or whatever, you know,
like these little things that you need to make sure you keep somewhere, all go in the
(09:51):
junk drawer.
So, like, I know that I can open my junk drawer and I can wrap a gift if I need to.
Because there are scissors and there are tape in my junk drawer.
Always.
You know, they're always there.
My key to my mailbox is in there.
My key to my neighbor's house is in there because there are these things that I need
(10:12):
to keep track of.
I also have a bunch of candles for like birthday cakes and stuff all kept in that drawer because
they are those things that you only need every now and then.
But you need them every now and then.
I have matches.
There's a lighter in there, too.
You know, like I could do the birthday party.
The little things.
Okay.
Because I had a birthday party when I turned 12, my mom put paper matches on my cake.
(10:36):
And there is a picture of me giving her a death look because as I'm trying to like blow
out not wood matches, but like out of a match book, paper matches in my cake.
And they were wet.
And so they weren't staying lit.
It was awful.
Like, and I very vivid memory of this.
(10:56):
So like this is not.
We do not fail on birthday candles in my household.
Right.
So my mind with that is batteries.
Used to get toys for like, you know, birthday, Christmas, whatever, especially like for Christmas.
You get a toy and it's like requires batteries and then we wouldn't have any batteries.
Yes.
(11:17):
Now I'm obsessive about batteries.
I always have some.
Yeah, I always say I same.
I think I have the same that same trauma.
We could never find the finding scissors in my household growing up was almost impossible.
It was almost impossible.
It was almost as impossible as finding soup spoons when my mother decided those were appropriate
for digging in the garden because I came a point in my childhood where like half the
(11:42):
supply of soup spoons in our house were in the garden.
Nice.
Yes.
It's funny how these things stick with you.
It really is like there is some like, you know, I will pick up a pack of like scissors
at Costco every now and then because I'm like, I will never be without scissors because it
(12:04):
was just it was always a struggle.
Now is needed them for projects or school or whatever and we can never find them.
Anyway, okay.
So why do you why do you think that that clutter is such a common struggle?
I think it's both that we're not we're taught systems that are neurotypical for managing
(12:25):
stuff.
They're not for people who have divergent brains.
You know, we've talked I've talked a little bit about different times that I felt shame
having a messy house feels shameful.
Not being able to keep up on cleaning the house feels shameful and all of the clutter
sort of, you know, cycles into that.
(12:47):
And when you feel shame, you are less likely to want to change something or to do something
or to feel empowered over it.
Right.
You just feel bad and then you get stuck or you have a hard time.
Right.
So, you know, I think that that's that's all all of that kind of goes into that.
(13:07):
I think, you know, the cluttered the cluttered nature of neuro diverse mind, you know, leads
to that, too.
In addition, the one second I got to take a sip of water because my cough is like trying
to get to me.
It works.
(13:30):
In addition, here, wait, actually, I'm going to tell Nicole something real quick.
Okay, sure.
Yeah.
Nicole, there's sushi in there if you want it.
Yeah, that's me.
Okay, I'm recording.
I'm going to go back in.
And there's sushi thing in there from Costco.
I'm sorry.
Nicole, she didn't know I was home.
Now you're muted.
I was muted.
I was like, tell her I said hi.
(14:04):
So in addition, in addition, a lot of people in neurodivergent struggle with memory and
not just like working memory, but like long term memory as well.
And so we have a higher likelihood of holding on to things for the sentimental meaning it
(14:27):
might hold on to the object holds on to the memory.
Yes, you're not going to remember it otherwise.
Or you feel like you might not.
Exactly.
You worry.
You worry that you will forget, you know, people, places, things, experiences, if you
don't have the physical, you know, manifestations of those memories or something to trigger
(14:48):
those memories.
And then this is definitely something I think that has been part of my experience is wanting
to hold on to things that help me remember my friends and things like that.
I mean, there's like a joke and like some of the memes are like, Oh, yeah, I forgot
you existed.
Sorry, I didn't text you back.
But I forgot you existed.
Like to your friends.
And it can be really damaging to your friendships.
(15:09):
I've had a couple of friendships with, you know, more neurotypical leaving people that
have ended because they were like, well, you just, you know, you dropped off the planet.
And I'm like, yeah, I got stressed out.
And like, I'm sorry that you blanked out of existence for me.
But that is kind of unfortunately how it goes sometimes.
Like the things that I'm not presented with right in my field of vision in some way are
(15:31):
harder for me to track and remember.
So you know, I hold on to and have held on to a lot of stuff with not even like mindfully
knowing I was doing it to hold on to the memories, but like always having the sense of like wanting
to remember who I was and where I came from and needing stuff to be able to do that.
(15:58):
Is it you said a few minutes ago that the shame that you feel when somebody sees your
messy house or if your house is cluttered and you feel that shame.
Yep.
(16:20):
The non memory, the forgetting something, the like, oh, this thing happened and I don't
remember it because you know, of the brain clutter of the, you know, not remembering
this.
Not maliciously.
It's not, I don't maliciously forget things.
(16:42):
Yeah.
Right.
But do you, do you feel like that same sort of shame like, oh, I should have remembered
this.
Absolutely.
I hate, I hate forgetting people's birthdays and I always forget people's birthdays.
You know, today's my birthday.
All right.
We know this, I know this is not true because Russ and I have a long standing joke about
(17:07):
the fact that I am three months older than him.
And so I know his birthday perfectly because when my birthday rolls around.
You were one year older than me for three months is the way we phrase that.
Yes.
Right.
And so yeah, Russ is like, you never forget my birthday.
Of course I never forget your birthday.
We have a whole shtick about it.
Like that's part of the reason why I don't forget it is because we have a shtick about
(17:29):
it.
Right.
So like it's in my memory for, for, you know, those reasons.
But you know, I generally forget people's birthdays.
It's just.
So yeah.
With that, is that just, hey, I kind of make sure I need to update a calendar or I need
to like, how do you manage that?
(17:49):
I mean, I do.
Yeah.
There are birthdays that I keep in my calendar so that I remember, um, I did have a relationship
like what I had a friendship with someone who was really, you know, very offended that
I had forgotten his birthday.
And so when I put his birthday in my calendar, I put reminders like two months before a month
before and like a week before so that I could have a couple of moments of, okay, this is
(18:16):
coming, okay, this is coming, you know, so that it wouldn't just be the day of and I
go, oh hell, it's this person's birthday.
I need to do something.
But had a lead in time.
But reminders like that fall into a whole other category of executive dysfunction because
that's essentially part of what we're talking about with clutter too.
(18:37):
The inability to keep up with keeping things tidy is a part of if you don't have a whole
lot of executive functioning and you don't have a whole lot of capacity to make a whole
bunch of decisions.
If you don't get the reward, you know, um, chemicals in your brain from finishing things
like that, there is literally no dopamine in any kind of paperwork for me.
(19:02):
None whatsoever.
Managing bills, managing paperwork, managing taxes.
There is no happy making chemicals in any of that.
It is just drain.
And if I am in a space where for whatever reason, like my executive functioning, I've
(19:23):
been sick for a few weeks.
I have been struggling with a, you know, a sinus infection that has just decided that
it's going to live forever.
And my executive functioning while I have been sick has been compromised because how
could it, how could it not be?
I've been sick for a long time.
Right?
And so I haven't been able to, I haven't been able to focus on work things that I wanted
(19:46):
to focus on.
I haven't been able to do a lot of different things.
I dropped a bunch of balls and I just kind of like let a whole bunch of things fall to
the side because I was sick and that's what I needed to do.
But anything that kind of comes in that interrupts whatever small amount of executive functioning
I have, almost often you will see it first in my house.
(20:06):
So like my dishes will pile up.
My, I won't, you know, like I went out to fix lunch today and I had all of the dishes
from last night I had to do before I could actually make lunch because I hadn't put anything
away last night.
But, you know, things like that.
And when you have a limited amount of a resource, like that allows you to make decisions and
(20:27):
get things done, it is really easy to let things pile up, like physical things pile
up.
You know, one thing that always helped me, especially on like, you know, you mentioned
the forms, the taxes, the things like that.
And one of the things that Greg and I over on the DIY for Business podcast are constantly
(20:51):
saying and, you know, now I'm giving you business owner advice here, but it's like those boring
things that you don't like to do are also taking time away from the things that you
love to do with the business.
Right.
So, you know, contracting that out or having somebody to do certain aspects of the business.
(21:11):
It's not always, you know, financially available, I guess, in the beginning of starting a business.
So you just have to kind of, you know, bite the bullet there.
But later on, you know, it's nice to have somebody to take those things on and it actually
helps your business grow.
Exactly.
(21:31):
You know, because you're able to focus on the things that you like and the reason why
you did the business in the first place.
Exactly.
And that's part of it is like needing to put systems in place.
That's a system.
Like that's a system of support, right?
Having somebody who does your taxes or having someone who does your, like I did, you know,
(21:52):
articles of incorporation, like having a service do that, which is, you know, what I ended
up doing for the business.
You'd still be doing that if you did that yourself.
I would still be doing that.
And something would be wrong.
Right.
And even with the service, something is wrong and I do have to go back and there's a bunch
of stuff to change.
Exactly.
And you know, it's always wrong.
Never, right?
Because nothing's perfect.
Right.
It's made by people, so it's not perfect.
(22:15):
But yeah, like, you know, and that is a system of support.
And so that is one thing.
One of the things I've been looking at with the business because, you know, I really like
to connect with people.
That's one of the reasons why I want to do like consulting work is because what I loved
about being a teacher, what I loved about being an instructional designer, and what
I loved about the admin work in higher ed I was doing was the fact that I could build
(22:37):
relationships with people and I could add value to their experiences.
Right.
And this is what I want to do with the coaching business, but right now it is me and this
computer.
This is what I have.
And I do not get a lot of dopamine from sitting in front of my computer trying to figure out
what I'm supposed to do for my business.
Right.
I'm going to get a lot of work.
(22:58):
I'm going to get a lot of dopamine from the business when it gets going.
But getting to that point, I don't have that.
So I had to figure out ways to kind of declutter my thinking in that because then the business
becomes this monolith.
It becomes this huge thing, right, of all these different components.
I'm worried about paperwork.
I'm worried about how do I do billing?
I'm worried about did I get my social media set up?
(23:21):
Did I get the notes for the podcast done?
Like I have all of these different pieces.
And so all of those end up becoming clutter and cluttering up my brain too.
So you know, you started this episode asking about how it was going moving into my new
office.
Well, I am really happy in this space.
It is unbelievably cluttered right now.
(23:41):
And it is it is actually driving me crazy that it's not ready for me to kind of be working
in it yet.
But part of that is because I've been slowly like redoing things I painted because I really
wanted this to be my new environment for the business and separate from the other parts
of my house and the other things that I'm doing.
(24:03):
And that was that was a ritual I needed to do.
Yeah.
I mean, like right now, you know, and we've talked about our our garages, right?
Right.
He took a deep breath.
You didn't see that.
I did.
I need to clean it out again.
(24:26):
I mean, I need to go through and just straighten it out because in the back of my mind, it's
always there.
It's like, right.
You know, I want that extra space.
I want to get clear space in there.
Yeah, it just it's it rests on you when you're when you exactly.
And right now, to get myself into this office, I have destroyed my garage.
(24:46):
My garage is is barely functional now because so much of what was in here ended up going
out into what is going to be the craft space for my daughter and kind of a teen teen hangout
area we put there was a big TV in this room that we weren't using this room in my house
at all.
Nobody was coming in here.
Nobody was using it.
And my my daughter was out in the garage doing crafts.
(25:07):
This big TV was just going to waste in here.
And that's part of the reason why I made the shift kind of move in here.
So I moved the TV out and everything.
But now the craft space is just absolutely overwhelmed with all of the stuff that needs
to be organized out there.
And whereas right now in this space, there's a lot of dopamine for me to come in here and
work on this space because it's exciting to like put my space together for it to be the
(25:29):
business.
I'm going to have to find some to get into that garage at some point and get that put
together because it does not function for her right now.
It doesn't function for her at all.
So you know, it is down the line as the thing like and I can only do you know so much.
I'm only you know, really one person doing this and I have to like pull myself back and
(25:51):
set my expectations of like you can't do it all at once.
Like when I was younger, I could do more every day, you know, in a day.
But I don't I don't run myself into the ground anymore.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, you've got to realize there's only so much you could do.
That goes back to the thing of like getting you know, getting people to help and you know,
(26:11):
once you can, you know, with with the business that that you that you run.
Another thing is like a you know, like one thing that I do, I do a lot of like, you know,
lists, right?
The list thing, the task list.
That's one of I guess my, you know, techniques of like just trying to, you know, get things
(26:36):
done.
Like I have I have a notepad.
I'll just I'll wear on camera so you can see it.
But I do a notepad.
It's this boogie board thing that you have to erase to get a new note in there.
So I have to deal with all that stuff in order to go to my next note.
Like, sure, I take a photo, put it into something else, but then it's, you know, it's onto a
(26:57):
list somewhere else.
Right.
So like on a call, quickly notes and then, you know, move on.
I try to do that to kind of I don't know, like, well, there was a I think it was called
getting like a book getting things done that I read, you know, like one of the one of the
DIY books that I've for business books that I've read.
(27:19):
It was something like your mind is for ideas, not for holding them or creating ideas, not
for holding them.
Yeah.
And it's like, that's I don't know.
That's what I go by because I do have ideas.
But yet, yeah, they they they tend to disappear if I if I don't write them down and put them
into you know, keep track of them in some way.
(27:41):
Yeah.
So that's my technique for kind of organizing all the the clutter of ideas that come to
my head.
So I think there's some techniques, actionable techniques, I guess, that somebody listening
to the podcast could do like today.
So there's a bunch of different ways.
A lot of people with neurodivergence will say that to do lists don't really help them
(28:03):
in part because like traditional to do lists don't have a priority.
Like like one of the other executive functioning issues that we have.
That is one of the reasons why clutter builds up the way that it does is I have a hard time
prioritizing what's important.
My brain doesn't always want to focus on the things that are the things I need to do.
(28:23):
Right.
It wants to focus on where it's going to get the most dopamine or the most reward from.
And that's not always often that is not often.
But unfortunately, and sometimes that is more going on my phone, like, you know, to pull
up social media or mess around rather than, you know, doing the things that I need to
do.
One of the things that I've been doing lately when I have a bunch of things that I need
(28:48):
to get done is I create not really a to do list, but sort of almost kind of like a menu
of sorts with like short, medium and tall tasks.
So like something that I know that's going to be really quick and easy for me to get
done would go on the short list.
(29:08):
Something that takes a little bit more effort, a little bit more time, you're going to take
more executive functioning and more kind of motivation to get going.
We go on the medium and something that is a tall order, right.
Something that I know is going to take.
Okay.
The resolve I need to get this done kind of mindset I put on the tall.
And I try during the day to pace myself to do the tall tasks when I have a lot a lot
(29:35):
of energy when I come back from something.
So often I will hit my stride during the day about 10 a.m.
I get up about 7, I take my medications, I eat my breakfast, I have whatever, you know,
beverage I'm going to have, and I can fuss around and kind of like slog through emails
and stuff before then.
(29:57):
But by 10 o'clock, I get to the groove, right, and I get to the point where I can focus and
I can get some work done.
So I try to remind myself to start with like a tall task when I'm in that space.
And to be mindful of the steps it takes, the rituals it takes to get me to that 10 a.m.
(30:17):
feeling so that I'm not beating myself up that I'm not at that 10 a.m. feeling from
8 until 5.
Because I'm never going to run on a cycle like that.
I'm always going to run on pits and valleys, right.
So I need to like pull back and say, okay, you know, about this time and about this,
you know, you're going to have the capacity for some of these harder tasks.
(30:39):
So I try to parse them out, not just in I need to get these 10 things done today because
then that feels huge to me.
But in today's energy, I'm probably going to be able to get a couple of things off my
short, maybe one or two off the medium and tall, depending on how big they are.
So thinking of tasks in that and thinking of rituals you can do to kind of set yourself
(31:02):
up to be in the space to do your best work.
Right.
Right.
Well, I mean, what you it sounds what you just did was you decluttered your to do list.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I prioritize zones for it.
Yeah, exactly.
Like I made zones and I made it into areas so that instead of looking at a list of 10
(31:22):
things I need to do, I can, you know, you know, kind of gamify it a little, make it
a little like, OK, you know, yeah, you can really do a, you know, a tall task day or
something to that effect.
There's other ways I know of people who've done this with like they'll make a list of
20 things that need to be done and they'll roll a D20, you know, a 20 sided die that
(31:43):
you would use for like, you know, tabletop role playing games.
And then you do whatever number comes up and then you're taking the executive functioning
out of it.
You don't have to think about it.
You're just telling you what to do, which can be a hack to make it easier.
Rachel does that with her daughter and to get her motivated to clean her her room.
And if she rerolls a number that she's already done, so she rerolled like she did number
(32:05):
six and then she rolled a six again, she'd either get like a piece of candy or they do
a dance break or something like that to to add some dopamine into the process of like
cleaning.
You know, so there's other ways to handle it.
You know, small, medium and large is what's working for me right now.
Or small, short, medium and tall is what's working for me right now.
(32:28):
The other thing I would make sure to tell people is like change, change your approaches
up like because that adds dopamine.
When I came up with short, medium and tall, I was so excited.
I'm like, oh, this is a great idea.
Right.
Because, oh, this is completely different from what I have done before.
And so changing how how you approach like coming up with new novel ideas and different
(32:50):
ideas for doing this is also a good help.
So I worked with a company.
We did the same thing of actually doing sizes, sizes of the bucket that things are going
into.
But it would totally screw you up because we use Starbucks.
So tall was the small.
All right.
We use tall grande and venti.
We actually grab those terms.
(33:12):
And yeah, it's going to mess you up.
That was really your tall was our small.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, the gamifying thing, like that's actually why we did it as well was it was to
game a flat gamify to get certain areas worked on first.
Right.
Right.
Yep.
(33:33):
And I would think too.
Now, if you have one of those larger tasks that you that you wanted to get done, sort
of chunking it into different pieces, so that you're you're instead of having a tall, you
break it down so that you have a small and a medium or three.
Yeah.
Right.
(33:53):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Breaking it down.
There's a great app called Goblin Tools that you can download and you can end its AI generated.
You could do this with any kind of AI tool as well and say, I need to paint my office.
What are the steps I need to do to take it and it will break it down.
So Goblin Tools is an app that you put on your phone and you can just I need to clean
(34:14):
my kitchen.
What are the steps I should take to clean my kitchen or whatever?
And then you can go through and if it gives you six steps and you feel like step three
has too many pieces in it, you can say break this step down into more pieces and you can
get it down to be time smaller and smaller and smaller.
And then you get the dopamine rewards of like hitting however many you get.
(34:38):
I mean, it'd be fun if they added something like that in and you could level up and you
get points for each one of them.
Right.
You had a level five day because you got this many of these tasks done, that kind of thing.
You could do that yourself.
Well, I mean, I think what you're describing here too is something that's actually very
interesting and intriguing for a business owner.
(35:00):
Right.
Like, oh, hey, we're not getting enough stuff done.
Let's set up a point system and let's do this so that within our database, we can track
how many calls were made today and those are worth five points and how many emails were
sent and those are worth two points and how many that you could completely gamify something
(35:23):
to say at the end of the day, hey, you have a hundred point day.
And it's kind of interesting to talk about that, but then there's also like efficiency
rates or utilization rates where how many billable hours did a person get in a particular
(35:44):
week and how much time was focused on that versus other things that are not billable
to client work.
And it's like all of those things are like, if you can gamify those, I think.
Yeah.
Well, and then that would remove some of that because as soon as you said that, like, oh,
(36:05):
for me and my neurodivergent brain, oh, well, how many billable hours did you get?
And it's like, oh, well, did I fall short?
I immediately started thinking, oh, what happens if I don't hit?
But if I like because often metrics like that in in workplaces aren't used as a lift up,
(36:28):
they're used as a punitive, right?
You didn't do well enough.
So you're not getting a bonus or whatnot, like things like that.
So gamifying, true gamifying, it should be to help people do better and to be a reward
system versus a punitive system, right, where you feel like you're not matching the hours
(36:52):
that you're supposed to have or doing what type of work you're supposed to do a certain
time.
Well, I mean, I look at that stuff, too, is like, you know, and how I've managed and the
styles change with different companies and different things.
But I mean, a way a very positive way of managing is to get people to those numbers, you know,
(37:17):
and to create whether it's through gamification or whatever it is.
If you see somebody with a let's let's we'll say utilization rates, let's say, you know,
they've got a 50 and the target 70 percent, right.
And there are 50 percent like how do you get them to that instead of saying, oh, this is
a punitive thing.
It's like this is a game.
(37:37):
Let's get you from 50 to 70.
Let's let's you know, let's roll the dice and figure out.
Let's play the game, because if you were doing, you know, X, Y and Z, that's going to get
you that extra five percent.
OK, now, you know, let's look at it.
We did that.
We made the five percent.
Let's look at it.
You know, so I think even it's almost like taking the thing that I said about, you know,
(37:58):
a task and turning that into like the same sort of system with a goal of chunking it
and saying, let's let's break it into, you know, that 20 percent.
It's four, five percent.
Well, that's a lot easier to deal with.
Right.
So it's always interesting as a step up.
Yeah.
As opposed to you have this.
(38:19):
You have to make this huge jump from, you know, you're doing 50 percent of the 70 percent
we want you to do, you know, telling someone you need to do 20 percent more.
It's a lot different if you say, OK, how can we how can we level you five?
How can we get you five percent higher now or even two or three, you know, or something
like that where you can kind of.
(38:40):
Yeah.
Smaller steps through it.
And right.
And that, you know, a lot of this is at least in terms of business and in terms of this,
because what we're stepping into right now are some some things that are used as performance
metrics.
Right.
So using performance metrics as a means of growth, you know, versus a a perfect goal
(39:02):
to set or a, you know, a setting yourself to be exceptionally high and exceptionally
successful or fit exceptionally well in whatever measure.
Yeah.
You know, well, I mean, the reality of it is there's so many, you know, it is so hard
to find a let's just go with this 50 70 that we're talking about.
(39:25):
Right.
Like it's so hard to find somebody to work for a company that's going to hit you at that
that that hit that 50 percent.
Right.
You know, like the fact that they're there is is great.
And when you look at like and again, just talking like this random utilization rate
that we have no idea what the company is or what it is.
(39:46):
But you hire somebody, you know, week one, they're going to be at zero.
So if you were to just say, oh, you're not you're at 50 percent.
And so we're going to let you go.
And so now, you know, we have we're down to zero percent as a company owner.
Like I've lost 50 percent.
It's not that I've gained.
(40:07):
So it is in the company's best interests to help get them from 50 to 55 to 60 to 65.
Right.
70 to move them forward in whatever way.
And that's what I think.
You know, so now I'm going to say over to you and your business, because that's sort
(40:30):
of like what you're doing.
You're not hitting these metrics and helping them in that way, but you're helping them
to figure out solutions to make the people that they've found.
Exactly.
Yep.
Better and improve them and make their conditions better for the employees.
So it's it's not just for the employee, but it's for the business owner, the managers,
the entire company lifting all ships.
(40:52):
Right.
And it's to recognize that, you know, neurodivergence is can be can be a strength.
Like I will I will never I will I will never call neurodivergence a superpower because
a lot of people like this rhetoric of like, oh, you can do all these great things, which
we have talked about in episodes prior.
I will never call neurodivergence a superpower because I do not get to turn it on and off
(41:13):
sometimes.
It is it is as flighty as it can be.
Right.
And but but but there are inherent strengths in neurodivergence and in having people on
your team who are capable of seeing things in a different way, who are capable of describing
things, who are capable of doing, you know, a deep dive to deeply understand your business
(41:38):
and your product and what's being sold or your people and who's being served, who come
from, you know, if you're doing some kind of social justice work, who come from the
groups that you're trying to support and change, you want people who have those experiences
to come in.
And so when we have something like performance metrics, which don't necessarily support people
(42:00):
who might work in a neurodivergent way, like I can't keep a nine to five schedule because
my brain doesn't really work that way.
Right.
So we want to make sure we support people who whose brains fall out of that with with
a different schedule, let's say.
But also, like you want to make sure that people who can do your deep dives are doing
your deep dives or people who are your ADHD people who have the capacity to brainstorm
(42:25):
and come up with all kinds of creative solutions and ideas can get the support of the people
who are the, you know, can the engineers who can make those things happen.
Like, so you want that.
So you want your hiring practices to be inclusive.
You want your workspace to be inclusive.
You want your performance reports to be inclusive of neurodiversity so that all of those pieces
(42:47):
are recognized and, you know, supported, not just for the individuals you hire, but to
create a robust business that will have this kind of, you know, energy brought to it.
So there's so much that we can do in those in those environments.
Totally.
And and I feel the passion from you.
(43:09):
Oh, I know, really.
Good, because it is like this is like I really feel like there's so much that there's so
much opportunity and there's so many ways that we can cut short and we can not embrace
people and not support people.
And I think that there's in large part, a lot of the accommodations don't need to be
(43:30):
really outrageous, but they just they just need to exist.
You know.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, I so I just randomly did a little a little search here of just
some numbers, right?
So if you have a strong onboarding process, people are 82 percent more likely to stay
(43:56):
more than a year with your company.
Right.
Cultural fit, 27 percent more likely.
And then engagement, if you're engaging with employees, 59 percent less likely to leave.
So yeah, I'm flipping the numbers.
And then work life balance, 70 percent of employees say work life balance is a key factor
(44:18):
for staying.
So it's like all of these different things.
And then what you know, like what you're doing is I feel like sort of helping all of those,
right?
Like helping the onboarding experience.
You're helping that cultural fit and engagement.
Yeah, absolutely.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(44:38):
Those are those are really, really important things.
And and and they are different depending on your, you know, your neurotype, depending
on how your brain approaches the world.
You need different things.
And a lot of the studies and I don't have any pulled up because I didn't do a web search
really quickly.
But there are a lot of studies that show that the accommodations for people with neurodiversity
(45:01):
help people who are neurotypical as well.
They really aren't totally like, you know, they really aren't these crazy things that
are being asked for.
But, you know, when you are going to have, you know, yeah, have somebody who who needs
them, it benefits, it benefits everybody and it benefits, you know, like I said, the business
overall, like I said, it lifts all ships.
(45:21):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And it's funny that we are having this conversation now that on the cluttering, the clutter, I
know, right?
We're talking about clutter.
So I mean, you know, and this is a way to clean up, like declutter your business perhaps.
No, totally.
I mean, I think all of this fits.
I agree.
Yeah, I think.
Yeah, totally.
(45:42):
Because very 80.
That it is.
That's why it fits.
It is why it fits, you know, because we can see all those connections.
But it is, you know, this is where all of this kind of comes together.
Like there are so many different pieces of someone's life that comes together.
Like if you can get your workplace to be, you know, more accommodating, to be easier
(46:06):
and, you know, more, more flexible or I wanted to say flowy is really the word I want to
go with, like, you know, go with the flow.
Yeah.
Invent a new word.
Yes.
I'm a doctor.
I can do that.
You can.
You love the words.
(46:27):
They love that.
It's all good.
I do.
All right.
So if somebody did want to reach out to you to get your assistance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Check out my website.
Check out my website divergentpassconsulting.com and book a discovery session with me.
I have half an hour discovery sessions available on my site, you know, linked directly to my
(46:51):
calendar and book a session and let's talk about how we can work together.
Declutter their business.
Declutter your business.
And that wraps up this episode of Divergent Paz.
(47:12):
For neurodivergent individuals, clutter is often more than just the objects in our spaces.
It's a reflection of our minds, our histories and our unique ways of navigating the world.
It can be both a source of frustration and a reservoir of memories and identity.
If today's discussion resonated with you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
How do you experience clutter in your life?
(47:34):
What strategies and perspectives have helped you navigate it?
You can reach out to me on Blue Sky at Divergent Paz Consulting.
Let's keep this conversation going.
As always, thank you for walking this path with me, don't forget to subscribe, share
and leave a review if you're enjoying the show.
Your support helps us reach more people and share more stories.
(47:54):
Until next time, embrace your beautiful chaos and your divergent path.
There is literally no dopamine in any kind of paperwork for me.
(00:07):
None whatsoever.
Managing bills, managing paperwork, managing taxes.
There is no happy making chemicals in any of that.
It is just drain.
(00:33):
Hello and welcome to Divergent Paths, the podcast where we explore life through the
lens of neurodivergence, creativity, and innovation.
I'm your host, Dr. Regina McMenomy, here to navigate the winding roads of neurodivergent
experiences with insight, humor, and a touch of lived wisdom.
In this episode, we're diving into a topic that resonates with many neurodivergent individuals
(00:55):
– clutter.
Whether it's the piles of projects we've started, the papers we meant to organize,
or the sentimental items we can't quite let go of, clutter is often more than just
physical – it's emotional and mental too.
We'll unpack the unique ways neurodivergence intersects with clutter, share personal stories,
and discuss strategies to manage and embrace it in our lives.
(01:16):
Joining me is Russ, host of the DIY Business Podcast, who's here to help guide this conversation
with thoughtful and curious questions.
Let's dive into the beautifully chaotic world of clutter and explore why it's more
than just stuff for so many of us.
So stay tuned and thanks for listening to Divergent Paths.
(01:37):
So how's the new office?
The new recording studio?
It's in process.
It's in process.
Okay.
Yes.
Well, from the camera looks, everything looks…
It looks great from here.
Yes, that's because the tape is just off the camera.
(01:59):
So an episode on clutter.
I'm wondering because here's my thing.
If there's clutter in this space, like right now I do have some stuff on the other side
of the camera that's kind of not great looking.
Like I literally have like a Christmas decoration and it's, you know, as of recording this several
weeks past Christmas.
(02:19):
Yes.
Almost a month.
Almost a full month past Christmas.
Yeah, because I have to repair it.
I have to get some super glue and fix some things.
So I left it here and it's been sitting there and it's annoying the heck out of me.
And I got this new cool monitor, but there's some old monitor parts there.
There's this clutter that just, I don't like.
(02:39):
It's distracting to me.
Okay.
Because it makes me think of these things that I have to do.
So that's what clutter means to me.
But what does clutter mean to a neurodivergent person?
Well, I mean, you know, all of that is true.
Which could be me.
Right.
Exactly.
Which might possibly be you.
Yet to be determined.
(03:00):
Yeah.
That's an episode for the future.
Season finale maybe.
Yes.
So that is true, you know, for neurodivergent people, clutter is a constant battle, physical
clutter.
But also I would say that my neurodivergence and specifically my ADHD makes my brain a
(03:25):
cluttered place as well.
So isn't it, don't people, isn't there some saying it's like cluttered place, clear
mind or clear mind clutter?
Probably something along those lines.
I mean, you know, there's a saying for everything.
Yeah.
I can't say that it actually makes sense.
(03:45):
But if clutter around you, does that mean also clutter inside for you?
I think I have, I constantly have both.
And I think one of the things that I've started to recognize about my relationship with physical
clutter is the fact that my brain is always so cluttered.
(04:08):
I don't always see the physical clutter.
So I will have a space that will get cluttered up and I will not even recognize that it has
gotten cluttered until I can't see anything else but the clutter.
And it becomes like you're talking about right now with the Christmas decoration and, you
(04:32):
know, the monitor parts or whatever as like kind of bugging you.
I don't have that.
It bugs me until I get to a place where there isn't anything else that I can see, which
is either it has gotten to a point where it is so big that it's getting in the way of
other things or my hyper focus just decides to fixate on it for whatever reason.
(04:57):
So it's sort of, I guess I would say it overstimulates me to have that there because I'm like, oh,
I want to go take care of this.
I got to go get super glue.
I keep forgetting to get super glue.
I got to do that.
When the clutter is in your mind, is that overstimulation as well?
(05:22):
Oh, yes.
Absolutely.
And that's when I talked about going on the ADHD medication, that's part of what happened
was like there was an internal decluttering.
And so because things are more regulated just in my brain, my nervous system is more regulated
and that gives me more space to actually be able to perceive my physical area in a way
(05:48):
that I generally that I hadn't before.
And one of the things like if I am wondering if someone I know is neurodivergent, one of
the things I will look at is what the flat areas in their household look like.
(06:08):
So for me, I got rid of my dresser in my bedroom.
I can't remember if I've told this story before.
Have I told this story to you before?
I don't think so.
Okay.
I had a big double wide long dresser in my bedroom and there are two things that happen
with it.
For a lot of neurodivergent folk, when you can't see something, it doesn't exist.
(06:35):
So we tend to have a lot of stuff around us visually because I will often forget to take
my vitamins.
If I tried to put them away or put them in the medicine cabinet, I would never remember
to take my vitamins or now that I am older, my medications.
My medications have to be out so I see them.
(06:55):
I have medications I take in the morning.
I have medications I take at bedtime and they have to be out on my bedside table in plain
sight so I remember to take them.
And I have alarms set up and I have systems set up to remember to take my meds, but they
need to be where I can see them.
So if I can't see it, it doesn't exist is very much a reality.
So what happened with my dresser was twofold.
(07:18):
I would forget the clothes I had in my dresser drawers.
I would completely forget that I even had them.
I would open a dresser drawer and be like, oh, that's right.
I have all of these leggings.
I have all this exercise stuff.
I have all this all this stuff.
I would just completely forget that it existed and I would never wear it.
(07:38):
And then in addition, the dresser was a flat space, a horizontal flat space that stuff
just collected on.
And this is the exact example of what I'm talking about where I wouldn't see it until
it was all I could see and then I would have to clean up everything that was on it.
And so I have been in the process in the last few years, my recognition of my neurodivergence
(08:04):
and understanding that I need places for things.
And one of the things I have now is to keep stuff from collecting on my kitchen counter
where I need to do food prep and work and stuff.
I keep a bin on the other side of the kitchen wall because I don't have doors.
I have archways between my living room and my kitchen.
(08:25):
On the living room archway wall is a table that has a bin.
And I put the stuff that I would normally collect on the kitchen counter, just random
stuff like mail I have to deal with or things that need to be put away in my bedroom or
whatever.
Instead of just piling them on the kitchen counter where I will stop seeing them until
(08:45):
I need to move them to cook, I just put them in that bin.
And then when that bin is full, in theory, in theory when that bin is full, I will empty
it.
So I tried to do that with my dresser.
It didn't work.
And I realized that for my clothes, I just needed to be able to see everything.
So now I can step into my closet and everything in my closet is visible.
(09:07):
I can see every piece of clothing I have from standing in one place in my closet.
I can see everything.
And that is the best system I have had for my closet ever.
What do you do about junk drawers?
Well, junk drawers.
I have a junk drawer, but it is reasonably organized because a junk drawer should have
(09:28):
a purpose like it.
You know, Rachel from Serenna Space, who was a professional organizer we had on episode
three or four, says, you know, junk doors have a purpose.
They serve a purpose.
You put all the little fussy things that you need, like once a year or whatever, you know,
like these little things that you need to make sure you keep somewhere, all go in the
(09:51):
junk drawer.
So, like, I know that I can open my junk drawer and I can wrap a gift if I need to.
Because there are scissors and there are tape in my junk drawer.
Always.
You know, they're always there.
My key to my mailbox is in there.
My key to my neighbor's house is in there because there are these things that I need
(10:12):
to keep track of.
I also have a bunch of candles for like birthday cakes and stuff all kept in that drawer because
they are those things that you only need every now and then.
But you need them every now and then.
I have matches.
There's a lighter in there, too.
You know, like I could do the birthday party.
The little things.
Okay.
Because I had a birthday party when I turned 12, my mom put paper matches on my cake.
(10:36):
And there is a picture of me giving her a death look because as I'm trying to like blow
out not wood matches, but like out of a match book, paper matches in my cake.
And they were wet.
And so they weren't staying lit.
It was awful.
Like, and I very vivid memory of this.
(10:56):
So like this is not.
We do not fail on birthday candles in my household.
Right.
So my mind with that is batteries.
Used to get toys for like, you know, birthday, Christmas, whatever, especially like for Christmas.
You get a toy and it's like requires batteries and then we wouldn't have any batteries.
Yes.
(11:17):
Now I'm obsessive about batteries.
I always have some.
Yeah, I always say I same.
I think I have the same that same trauma.
We could never find the finding scissors in my household growing up was almost impossible.
It was almost impossible.
It was almost as impossible as finding soup spoons when my mother decided those were appropriate
for digging in the garden because I came a point in my childhood where like half the
(11:42):
supply of soup spoons in our house were in the garden.
Nice.
Yes.
It's funny how these things stick with you.
It really is like there is some like, you know, I will pick up a pack of like scissors
at Costco every now and then because I'm like, I will never be without scissors because it
(12:04):
was just it was always a struggle.
Now is needed them for projects or school or whatever and we can never find them.
Anyway, okay.
So why do you why do you think that that clutter is such a common struggle?
I think it's both that we're not we're taught systems that are neurotypical for managing
(12:25):
stuff.
They're not for people who have divergent brains.
You know, we've talked I've talked a little bit about different times that I felt shame
having a messy house feels shameful.
Not being able to keep up on cleaning the house feels shameful and all of the clutter
sort of, you know, cycles into that.
(12:47):
And when you feel shame, you are less likely to want to change something or to do something
or to feel empowered over it.
Right.
You just feel bad and then you get stuck or you have a hard time.
Right.
So, you know, I think that that's that's all all of that kind of goes into that.
(13:07):
I think, you know, the cluttered the cluttered nature of neuro diverse mind, you know, leads
to that, too.
In addition, the one second I got to take a sip of water because my cough is like trying
to get to me.
It works.
(13:30):
In addition, here, wait, actually, I'm going to tell Nicole something real quick.
Okay, sure.
Yeah.
Nicole, there's sushi in there if you want it.
Yeah, that's me.
Okay, I'm recording.
I'm going to go back in.
And there's sushi thing in there from Costco.
I'm sorry.
Nicole, she didn't know I was home.
Now you're muted.
I was muted.
I was like, tell her I said hi.
(14:04):
So in addition, in addition, a lot of people in neurodivergent struggle with memory and
not just like working memory, but like long term memory as well.
And so we have a higher likelihood of holding on to things for the sentimental meaning it
(14:27):
might hold on to the object holds on to the memory.
Yes, you're not going to remember it otherwise.
Or you feel like you might not.
Exactly.
You worry.
You worry that you will forget, you know, people, places, things, experiences, if you
don't have the physical, you know, manifestations of those memories or something to trigger
(14:48):
those memories.
And then this is definitely something I think that has been part of my experience is wanting
to hold on to things that help me remember my friends and things like that.
I mean, there's like a joke and like some of the memes are like, Oh, yeah, I forgot
you existed.
Sorry, I didn't text you back.
But I forgot you existed.
Like to your friends.
And it can be really damaging to your friendships.
(15:09):
I've had a couple of friendships with, you know, more neurotypical leaving people that
have ended because they were like, well, you just, you know, you dropped off the planet.
And I'm like, yeah, I got stressed out.
And like, I'm sorry that you blanked out of existence for me.
But that is kind of unfortunately how it goes sometimes.
Like the things that I'm not presented with right in my field of vision in some way are
(15:31):
harder for me to track and remember.
So you know, I hold on to and have held on to a lot of stuff with not even like mindfully
knowing I was doing it to hold on to the memories, but like always having the sense of like wanting
to remember who I was and where I came from and needing stuff to be able to do that.
(15:58):
Is it you said a few minutes ago that the shame that you feel when somebody sees your
messy house or if your house is cluttered and you feel that shame.
Yep.
(16:20):
The non memory, the forgetting something, the like, oh, this thing happened and I don't
remember it because you know, of the brain clutter of the, you know, not remembering
this.
Not maliciously.
It's not, I don't maliciously forget things.
(16:42):
Yeah.
Right.
But do you, do you feel like that same sort of shame like, oh, I should have remembered
this.
Absolutely.
I hate, I hate forgetting people's birthdays and I always forget people's birthdays.
You know, today's my birthday.
All right.
We know this, I know this is not true because Russ and I have a long standing joke about
(17:07):
the fact that I am three months older than him.
And so I know his birthday perfectly because when my birthday rolls around.
You were one year older than me for three months is the way we phrase that.
Yes.
Right.
And so yeah, Russ is like, you never forget my birthday.
Of course I never forget your birthday.
We have a whole shtick about it.
Like that's part of the reason why I don't forget it is because we have a shtick about
(17:29):
it.
Right.
So like it's in my memory for, for, you know, those reasons.
But you know, I generally forget people's birthdays.
It's just.
So yeah.
With that, is that just, hey, I kind of make sure I need to update a calendar or I need
to like, how do you manage that?
(17:49):
I mean, I do.
Yeah.
There are birthdays that I keep in my calendar so that I remember, um, I did have a relationship
like what I had a friendship with someone who was really, you know, very offended that
I had forgotten his birthday.
And so when I put his birthday in my calendar, I put reminders like two months before a month
before and like a week before so that I could have a couple of moments of, okay, this is
(18:16):
coming, okay, this is coming, you know, so that it wouldn't just be the day of and I
go, oh hell, it's this person's birthday.
I need to do something.
But had a lead in time.
But reminders like that fall into a whole other category of executive dysfunction because
that's essentially part of what we're talking about with clutter too.
(18:37):
The inability to keep up with keeping things tidy is a part of if you don't have a whole
lot of executive functioning and you don't have a whole lot of capacity to make a whole
bunch of decisions.
If you don't get the reward, you know, um, chemicals in your brain from finishing things
like that, there is literally no dopamine in any kind of paperwork for me.
(19:02):
None whatsoever.
Managing bills, managing paperwork, managing taxes.
There is no happy making chemicals in any of that.
It is just drain.
And if I am in a space where for whatever reason, like my executive functioning, I've
(19:23):
been sick for a few weeks.
I have been struggling with a, you know, a sinus infection that has just decided that
it's going to live forever.
And my executive functioning while I have been sick has been compromised because how
could it, how could it not be?
I've been sick for a long time.
Right?
And so I haven't been able to, I haven't been able to focus on work things that I wanted
(19:46):
to focus on.
I haven't been able to do a lot of different things.
I dropped a bunch of balls and I just kind of like let a whole bunch of things fall to
the side because I was sick and that's what I needed to do.
But anything that kind of comes in that interrupts whatever small amount of executive functioning
I have, almost often you will see it first in my house.
(20:06):
So like my dishes will pile up.
My, I won't, you know, like I went out to fix lunch today and I had all of the dishes
from last night I had to do before I could actually make lunch because I hadn't put anything
away last night.
But, you know, things like that.
And when you have a limited amount of a resource, like that allows you to make decisions and
(20:27):
get things done, it is really easy to let things pile up, like physical things pile
up.
You know, one thing that always helped me, especially on like, you know, you mentioned
the forms, the taxes, the things like that.
And one of the things that Greg and I over on the DIY for Business podcast are constantly
(20:51):
saying and, you know, now I'm giving you business owner advice here, but it's like those boring
things that you don't like to do are also taking time away from the things that you
love to do with the business.
Right.
So, you know, contracting that out or having somebody to do certain aspects of the business.
(21:11):
It's not always, you know, financially available, I guess, in the beginning of starting a business.
So you just have to kind of, you know, bite the bullet there.
But later on, you know, it's nice to have somebody to take those things on and it actually
helps your business grow.
Exactly.
(21:31):
You know, because you're able to focus on the things that you like and the reason why
you did the business in the first place.
Exactly.
And that's part of it is like needing to put systems in place.
That's a system.
Like that's a system of support, right?
Having somebody who does your taxes or having someone who does your, like I did, you know,
(21:52):
articles of incorporation, like having a service do that, which is, you know, what I ended
up doing for the business.
You'd still be doing that if you did that yourself.
I would still be doing that.
And something would be wrong.
Right.
And even with the service, something is wrong and I do have to go back and there's a bunch
of stuff to change.
Exactly.
And you know, it's always wrong.
Never, right?
Because nothing's perfect.
Right.
It's made by people, so it's not perfect.
(22:15):
But yeah, like, you know, and that is a system of support.
And so that is one thing.
One of the things I've been looking at with the business because, you know, I really like
to connect with people.
That's one of the reasons why I want to do like consulting work is because what I loved
about being a teacher, what I loved about being an instructional designer, and what
I loved about the admin work in higher ed I was doing was the fact that I could build
(22:37):
relationships with people and I could add value to their experiences.
Right.
And this is what I want to do with the coaching business, but right now it is me and this
computer.
This is what I have.
And I do not get a lot of dopamine from sitting in front of my computer trying to figure out
what I'm supposed to do for my business.
Right.
I'm going to get a lot of work.
(22:58):
I'm going to get a lot of dopamine from the business when it gets going.
But getting to that point, I don't have that.
So I had to figure out ways to kind of declutter my thinking in that because then the business
becomes this monolith.
It becomes this huge thing, right, of all these different components.
I'm worried about paperwork.
I'm worried about how do I do billing?
I'm worried about did I get my social media set up?
(23:21):
Did I get the notes for the podcast done?
Like I have all of these different pieces.
And so all of those end up becoming clutter and cluttering up my brain too.
So you know, you started this episode asking about how it was going moving into my new
office.
Well, I am really happy in this space.
It is unbelievably cluttered right now.
(23:41):
And it is it is actually driving me crazy that it's not ready for me to kind of be working
in it yet.
But part of that is because I've been slowly like redoing things I painted because I really
wanted this to be my new environment for the business and separate from the other parts
of my house and the other things that I'm doing.
(24:03):
And that was that was a ritual I needed to do.
Yeah.
I mean, like right now, you know, and we've talked about our our garages, right?
Right.
He took a deep breath.
You didn't see that.
I did.
I need to clean it out again.
(24:26):
I mean, I need to go through and just straighten it out because in the back of my mind, it's
always there.
It's like, right.
You know, I want that extra space.
I want to get clear space in there.
Yeah, it just it's it rests on you when you're when you exactly.
And right now, to get myself into this office, I have destroyed my garage.
(24:46):
My garage is is barely functional now because so much of what was in here ended up going
out into what is going to be the craft space for my daughter and kind of a teen teen hangout
area we put there was a big TV in this room that we weren't using this room in my house
at all.
Nobody was coming in here.
Nobody was using it.
And my my daughter was out in the garage doing crafts.
(25:07):
This big TV was just going to waste in here.
And that's part of the reason why I made the shift kind of move in here.
So I moved the TV out and everything.
But now the craft space is just absolutely overwhelmed with all of the stuff that needs
to be organized out there.
And whereas right now in this space, there's a lot of dopamine for me to come in here and
work on this space because it's exciting to like put my space together for it to be the
(25:29):
business.
I'm going to have to find some to get into that garage at some point and get that put
together because it does not function for her right now.
It doesn't function for her at all.
So you know, it is down the line as the thing like and I can only do you know so much.
I'm only you know, really one person doing this and I have to like pull myself back and
(25:51):
set my expectations of like you can't do it all at once.
Like when I was younger, I could do more every day, you know, in a day.
But I don't I don't run myself into the ground anymore.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, you've got to realize there's only so much you could do.
That goes back to the thing of like getting you know, getting people to help and you know,
(26:11):
once you can, you know, with with the business that that you that you run.
Another thing is like a you know, like one thing that I do, I do a lot of like, you know,
lists, right?
The list thing, the task list.
That's one of I guess my, you know, techniques of like just trying to, you know, get things
(26:36):
done.
Like I have I have a notepad.
I'll just I'll wear on camera so you can see it.
But I do a notepad.
It's this boogie board thing that you have to erase to get a new note in there.
So I have to deal with all that stuff in order to go to my next note.
Like, sure, I take a photo, put it into something else, but then it's, you know, it's onto a
(26:57):
list somewhere else.
Right.
So like on a call, quickly notes and then, you know, move on.
I try to do that to kind of I don't know, like, well, there was a I think it was called
getting like a book getting things done that I read, you know, like one of the one of the
DIY books that I've for business books that I've read.
(27:19):
It was something like your mind is for ideas, not for holding them or creating ideas, not
for holding them.
Yeah.
And it's like, that's I don't know.
That's what I go by because I do have ideas.
But yet, yeah, they they they tend to disappear if I if I don't write them down and put them
into you know, keep track of them in some way.
(27:41):
Yeah.
So that's my technique for kind of organizing all the the clutter of ideas that come to
my head.
So I think there's some techniques, actionable techniques, I guess, that somebody listening
to the podcast could do like today.
So there's a bunch of different ways.
A lot of people with neurodivergence will say that to do lists don't really help them
(28:03):
in part because like traditional to do lists don't have a priority.
Like like one of the other executive functioning issues that we have.
That is one of the reasons why clutter builds up the way that it does is I have a hard time
prioritizing what's important.
My brain doesn't always want to focus on the things that are the things I need to do.
(28:23):
Right.
It wants to focus on where it's going to get the most dopamine or the most reward from.
And that's not always often that is not often.
But unfortunately, and sometimes that is more going on my phone, like, you know, to pull
up social media or mess around rather than, you know, doing the things that I need to
do.
One of the things that I've been doing lately when I have a bunch of things that I need
(28:48):
to get done is I create not really a to do list, but sort of almost kind of like a menu
of sorts with like short, medium and tall tasks.
So like something that I know that's going to be really quick and easy for me to get
done would go on the short list.
(29:08):
Something that takes a little bit more effort, a little bit more time, you're going to take
more executive functioning and more kind of motivation to get going.
We go on the medium and something that is a tall order, right.
Something that I know is going to take.
Okay.
The resolve I need to get this done kind of mindset I put on the tall.
And I try during the day to pace myself to do the tall tasks when I have a lot a lot
(29:35):
of energy when I come back from something.
So often I will hit my stride during the day about 10 a.m.
I get up about 7, I take my medications, I eat my breakfast, I have whatever, you know,
beverage I'm going to have, and I can fuss around and kind of like slog through emails
and stuff before then.
(29:57):
But by 10 o'clock, I get to the groove, right, and I get to the point where I can focus and
I can get some work done.
So I try to remind myself to start with like a tall task when I'm in that space.
And to be mindful of the steps it takes, the rituals it takes to get me to that 10 a.m.
(30:17):
feeling so that I'm not beating myself up that I'm not at that 10 a.m. feeling from
8 until 5.
Because I'm never going to run on a cycle like that.
I'm always going to run on pits and valleys, right.
So I need to like pull back and say, okay, you know, about this time and about this,
you know, you're going to have the capacity for some of these harder tasks.
(30:39):
So I try to parse them out, not just in I need to get these 10 things done today because
then that feels huge to me.
But in today's energy, I'm probably going to be able to get a couple of things off my
short, maybe one or two off the medium and tall, depending on how big they are.
So thinking of tasks in that and thinking of rituals you can do to kind of set yourself
(31:02):
up to be in the space to do your best work.
Right.
Right.
Well, I mean, what you it sounds what you just did was you decluttered your to do list.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I prioritize zones for it.
Yeah, exactly.
Like I made zones and I made it into areas so that instead of looking at a list of 10
(31:22):
things I need to do, I can, you know, you know, kind of gamify it a little, make it
a little like, OK, you know, yeah, you can really do a, you know, a tall task day or
something to that effect.
There's other ways I know of people who've done this with like they'll make a list of
20 things that need to be done and they'll roll a D20, you know, a 20 sided die that
(31:43):
you would use for like, you know, tabletop role playing games.
And then you do whatever number comes up and then you're taking the executive functioning
out of it.
You don't have to think about it.
You're just telling you what to do, which can be a hack to make it easier.
Rachel does that with her daughter and to get her motivated to clean her her room.
And if she rerolls a number that she's already done, so she rerolled like she did number
(32:05):
six and then she rolled a six again, she'd either get like a piece of candy or they do
a dance break or something like that to to add some dopamine into the process of like
cleaning.
You know, so there's other ways to handle it.
You know, small, medium and large is what's working for me right now.
Or small, short, medium and tall is what's working for me right now.
(32:28):
The other thing I would make sure to tell people is like change, change your approaches
up like because that adds dopamine.
When I came up with short, medium and tall, I was so excited.
I'm like, oh, this is a great idea.
Right.
Because, oh, this is completely different from what I have done before.
And so changing how how you approach like coming up with new novel ideas and different
(32:50):
ideas for doing this is also a good help.
So I worked with a company.
We did the same thing of actually doing sizes, sizes of the bucket that things are going
into.
But it would totally screw you up because we use Starbucks.
So tall was the small.
All right.
We use tall grande and venti.
We actually grab those terms.
(33:12):
And yeah, it's going to mess you up.
That was really your tall was our small.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, the gamifying thing, like that's actually why we did it as well was it was to
game a flat gamify to get certain areas worked on first.
Right.
Right.
Yep.
(33:33):
And I would think too.
Now, if you have one of those larger tasks that you that you wanted to get done, sort
of chunking it into different pieces, so that you're you're instead of having a tall, you
break it down so that you have a small and a medium or three.
Yeah.
Right.
(33:53):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Breaking it down.
There's a great app called Goblin Tools that you can download and you can end its AI generated.
You could do this with any kind of AI tool as well and say, I need to paint my office.
What are the steps I need to do to take it and it will break it down.
So Goblin Tools is an app that you put on your phone and you can just I need to clean
(34:14):
my kitchen.
What are the steps I should take to clean my kitchen or whatever?
And then you can go through and if it gives you six steps and you feel like step three
has too many pieces in it, you can say break this step down into more pieces and you can
get it down to be time smaller and smaller and smaller.
And then you get the dopamine rewards of like hitting however many you get.
(34:38):
I mean, it'd be fun if they added something like that in and you could level up and you
get points for each one of them.
Right.
You had a level five day because you got this many of these tasks done, that kind of thing.
You could do that yourself.
Well, I mean, I think what you're describing here too is something that's actually very
interesting and intriguing for a business owner.
(35:00):
Right.
Like, oh, hey, we're not getting enough stuff done.
Let's set up a point system and let's do this so that within our database, we can track
how many calls were made today and those are worth five points and how many emails were
sent and those are worth two points and how many that you could completely gamify something
(35:23):
to say at the end of the day, hey, you have a hundred point day.
And it's kind of interesting to talk about that, but then there's also like efficiency
rates or utilization rates where how many billable hours did a person get in a particular
(35:44):
week and how much time was focused on that versus other things that are not billable
to client work.
And it's like all of those things are like, if you can gamify those, I think.
Yeah.
Well, and then that would remove some of that because as soon as you said that, like, oh,
(36:05):
for me and my neurodivergent brain, oh, well, how many billable hours did you get?
And it's like, oh, well, did I fall short?
I immediately started thinking, oh, what happens if I don't hit?
But if I like because often metrics like that in in workplaces aren't used as a lift up,
(36:28):
they're used as a punitive, right?
You didn't do well enough.
So you're not getting a bonus or whatnot, like things like that.
So gamifying, true gamifying, it should be to help people do better and to be a reward
system versus a punitive system, right, where you feel like you're not matching the hours
(36:52):
that you're supposed to have or doing what type of work you're supposed to do a certain
time.
Well, I mean, I look at that stuff, too, is like, you know, and how I've managed and the
styles change with different companies and different things.
But I mean, a way a very positive way of managing is to get people to those numbers, you know,
(37:17):
and to create whether it's through gamification or whatever it is.
If you see somebody with a let's let's we'll say utilization rates, let's say, you know,
they've got a 50 and the target 70 percent, right.
And there are 50 percent like how do you get them to that instead of saying, oh, this is
a punitive thing.
It's like this is a game.
(37:37):
Let's get you from 50 to 70.
Let's let's you know, let's roll the dice and figure out.
Let's play the game, because if you were doing, you know, X, Y and Z, that's going to get
you that extra five percent.
OK, now, you know, let's look at it.
We did that.
We made the five percent.
Let's look at it.
You know, so I think even it's almost like taking the thing that I said about, you know,
(37:58):
a task and turning that into like the same sort of system with a goal of chunking it
and saying, let's let's break it into, you know, that 20 percent.
It's four, five percent.
Well, that's a lot easier to deal with.
Right.
So it's always interesting as a step up.
Yeah.
As opposed to you have this.
(38:19):
You have to make this huge jump from, you know, you're doing 50 percent of the 70 percent
we want you to do, you know, telling someone you need to do 20 percent more.
It's a lot different if you say, OK, how can we how can we level you five?
How can we get you five percent higher now or even two or three, you know, or something
like that where you can kind of.
(38:40):
Yeah.
Smaller steps through it.
And right.
And that, you know, a lot of this is at least in terms of business and in terms of this,
because what we're stepping into right now are some some things that are used as performance
metrics.
Right.
So using performance metrics as a means of growth, you know, versus a a perfect goal
(39:02):
to set or a, you know, a setting yourself to be exceptionally high and exceptionally
successful or fit exceptionally well in whatever measure.
Yeah.
You know, well, I mean, the reality of it is there's so many, you know, it is so hard
to find a let's just go with this 50 70 that we're talking about.
(39:25):
Right.
Like it's so hard to find somebody to work for a company that's going to hit you at that
that that hit that 50 percent.
Right.
You know, like the fact that they're there is is great.
And when you look at like and again, just talking like this random utilization rate
that we have no idea what the company is or what it is.
(39:46):
But you hire somebody, you know, week one, they're going to be at zero.
So if you were to just say, oh, you're not you're at 50 percent.
And so we're going to let you go.
And so now, you know, we have we're down to zero percent as a company owner.
Like I've lost 50 percent.
It's not that I've gained.
(40:07):
So it is in the company's best interests to help get them from 50 to 55 to 60 to 65.
Right.
70 to move them forward in whatever way.
And that's what I think.
You know, so now I'm going to say over to you and your business, because that's sort
(40:30):
of like what you're doing.
You're not hitting these metrics and helping them in that way, but you're helping them
to figure out solutions to make the people that they've found.
Exactly.
Yep.
Better and improve them and make their conditions better for the employees.
So it's it's not just for the employee, but it's for the business owner, the managers,
the entire company lifting all ships.
(40:52):
Right.
And it's to recognize that, you know, neurodivergence is can be can be a strength.
Like I will I will never I will I will never call neurodivergence a superpower because
a lot of people like this rhetoric of like, oh, you can do all these great things, which
we have talked about in episodes prior.
I will never call neurodivergence a superpower because I do not get to turn it on and off
(41:13):
sometimes.
It is it is as flighty as it can be.
Right.
And but but but there are inherent strengths in neurodivergence and in having people on
your team who are capable of seeing things in a different way, who are capable of describing
things, who are capable of doing, you know, a deep dive to deeply understand your business
(41:38):
and your product and what's being sold or your people and who's being served, who come
from, you know, if you're doing some kind of social justice work, who come from the
groups that you're trying to support and change, you want people who have those experiences
to come in.
And so when we have something like performance metrics, which don't necessarily support people
(42:00):
who might work in a neurodivergent way, like I can't keep a nine to five schedule because
my brain doesn't really work that way.
Right.
So we want to make sure we support people who whose brains fall out of that with with
a different schedule, let's say.
But also, like you want to make sure that people who can do your deep dives are doing
your deep dives or people who are your ADHD people who have the capacity to brainstorm
(42:25):
and come up with all kinds of creative solutions and ideas can get the support of the people
who are the, you know, can the engineers who can make those things happen.
Like, so you want that.
So you want your hiring practices to be inclusive.
You want your workspace to be inclusive.
You want your performance reports to be inclusive of neurodiversity so that all of those pieces
(42:47):
are recognized and, you know, supported, not just for the individuals you hire, but to
create a robust business that will have this kind of, you know, energy brought to it.
So there's so much that we can do in those in those environments.
Totally.
And and I feel the passion from you.
(43:09):
Oh, I know, really.
Good, because it is like this is like I really feel like there's so much that there's so
much opportunity and there's so many ways that we can cut short and we can not embrace
people and not support people.
And I think that there's in large part, a lot of the accommodations don't need to be
(43:30):
really outrageous, but they just they just need to exist.
You know.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, I so I just randomly did a little a little search here of just
some numbers, right?
So if you have a strong onboarding process, people are 82 percent more likely to stay
(43:56):
more than a year with your company.
Right.
Cultural fit, 27 percent more likely.
And then engagement, if you're engaging with employees, 59 percent less likely to leave.
So yeah, I'm flipping the numbers.
And then work life balance, 70 percent of employees say work life balance is a key factor
(44:18):
for staying.
So it's like all of these different things.
And then what you know, like what you're doing is I feel like sort of helping all of those,
right?
Like helping the onboarding experience.
You're helping that cultural fit and engagement.
Yeah, absolutely.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(44:38):
Those are those are really, really important things.
And and and they are different depending on your, you know, your neurotype, depending
on how your brain approaches the world.
You need different things.
And a lot of the studies and I don't have any pulled up because I didn't do a web search
really quickly.
But there are a lot of studies that show that the accommodations for people with neurodiversity
(45:01):
help people who are neurotypical as well.
They really aren't totally like, you know, they really aren't these crazy things that
are being asked for.
But, you know, when you are going to have, you know, yeah, have somebody who who needs
them, it benefits, it benefits everybody and it benefits, you know, like I said, the business
overall, like I said, it lifts all ships.
(45:21):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And it's funny that we are having this conversation now that on the cluttering, the clutter, I
know, right?
We're talking about clutter.
So I mean, you know, and this is a way to clean up, like declutter your business perhaps.
No, totally.
I mean, I think all of this fits.
I agree.
Yeah, I think.
Yeah, totally.
(45:42):
Because very 80.
That it is.
That's why it fits.
It is why it fits, you know, because we can see all those connections.
But it is, you know, this is where all of this kind of comes together.
Like there are so many different pieces of someone's life that comes together.
Like if you can get your workplace to be, you know, more accommodating, to be easier
(46:06):
and, you know, more, more flexible or I wanted to say flowy is really the word I want to
go with, like, you know, go with the flow.
Yeah.
Invent a new word.
Yes.
I'm a doctor.
I can do that.
You can.
You love the words.
(46:27):
They love that.
It's all good.
I do.
All right.
So if somebody did want to reach out to you to get your assistance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Check out my website.
Check out my website divergentpassconsulting.com and book a discovery session with me.
I have half an hour discovery sessions available on my site, you know, linked directly to my
(46:51):
calendar and book a session and let's talk about how we can work together.
Declutter their business.
Declutter your business.
And that wraps up this episode of Divergent Paz.
(47:12):
For neurodivergent individuals, clutter is often more than just the objects in our spaces.
It's a reflection of our minds, our histories and our unique ways of navigating the world.
It can be both a source of frustration and a reservoir of memories and identity.
If today's discussion resonated with you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
How do you experience clutter in your life?
(47:34):
What strategies and perspectives have helped you navigate it?
You can reach out to me on Blue Sky at Divergent Paz Consulting.
Let's keep this conversation going.
As always, thank you for walking this path with me, don't forget to subscribe, share
and leave a review if you're enjoying the show.
Your support helps us reach more people and share more stories.
(47:54):
Until next time, embrace your beautiful chaos and your divergent path.
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