September 13, 2024 • 43 mins
In this episode, Regina chats with Jackie Hanselmann Sergi. Jackie shares her story about growing up in a blended military family, her history challenging social norms, and how her path diverged from her expected career to a "not real" coaching business.
You can read more about Jackie at the Radical Spark Coaching website and follow on LinkedIn and Facebook.
About Regina McMenomy Ph.D.
Host of the Divergent Paths Podcast | ADHD & Neurodiversity Advocate | Founder, Divergent Paths Consulting
Welcome to Divergent Paths, a podcast dedicated to exploring life, work, and creativity through the lens of neurodiversity. Hosted by Regina, founder of Divergent Paths Consulting, the show delves into the experiences of individuals navigating ADHD and other invisible disabilities. As someone who received a late ADHD diagnosis, Regina brings personal insights and professional expertise to each episode, helping listeners find new ways to thrive in a neurotypical world.
With over 20 years of experience in instructional design, project management, and coaching, Regina is passionate about creating inclusive spaces where neurodiverse individuals can succeed. Through this podcast, Regina shares conversations with experts, professionals, and everyday people, offering tips, strategies, and stories of empowerment.
Tune in to learn how to embrace neurodivergence, redefine success, and chart your own path forward.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When I went to college, I really realized I saw the world differently and also think
(00:07):
I thought were normal. Turns out weren't normal. And so then again, my excuses, right? We didn't
know anything about neurodivergence. Like what we saw was, you know, extreme cases primarily
male. Like I wasn't running around the room. I was a good girl. I did the work. I was smart.
I was a hacker. Yeah. Right. That's my narrative too. Hello and welcome to Divergent Paths. I'm
(00:42):
your host, Dr. Regina McMenamey. I am a doctor, but not that kind of doctor. And this is a podcast
non-medical advice. Have you always felt a little different, but didn't know why? Have you struggled
with tasks that some people seem to handle with ease? Are you mystified by social norms and
interactions? Divergent Paths is a podcast for late diagnosed neurodivergent people to discuss
(01:06):
their journeys, discovering the joys and frustrations of having a spicy brain. Each episode,
I will interview someone who discovered they have ADHD, autism, or a combination of the two
later in life. What defines a later in life diagnosis? Anytime the realization happens
outside of the quote unquote norm of childhood and adolescence. In this episode, I chat with
(01:31):
Jackie Hanselman-Sergy from Radical Spark Coaching. We talk about the moment she could no longer
deny her spicy brain and the changes she made to her path because of it. So stay tuned and thanks
for listening to Divergent Paths. Welcome to the show, Jackie. Thank you so much for joining us.
(01:54):
Why don't you give me a little background and tell me a little bit about yourself?
My name is Jackie Hanselman-Sergy, and I think the most important thing is just I am an evolving
human. Professionally, I'm an executive and leadership coach, as well as I kind of like to
think of myself as a bit of a career guide to people. I founded my own coaching practice, Radical
(02:18):
Spark Coaching, over seven years ago, and it really maps towards working with people who
identify as women, leaders of color, and working parents, because those are three areas that I
identify as. And it's just been the greatest joy to be able to be a bit of a guide and someone who
(02:40):
can encourage other people to be evolving humans. I think that's a lot of it. I am a mom. I am a
working mom. I think I'm so thankful to be a mom. It wasn't something I was sure I was going to be
able to do. And it's in it, frankly, because of my kids, I realized the spiciness. It was kind of like
you couldn't deny the spiciness when you have little humans. Wait a second. This space of like
(03:09):
neuro-spiciness is one where it's been a bit of a journey, because it's just been something where when
you grow up, I am someone who grew up in the South with a military family. Yeah, blended family,
both parents, it was the non-healthy Brady Bunch. People who married each other that brought kids
(03:37):
and then surprised, there's me. You're in the South and your family looks like the Model United
Nations. And you have some siblings that are also half Asian from a different parent. You have another
sibling that's half black from another parent, family member. And it's this hodge-hodge, and then
(03:57):
they throw you deep into South Carolina to go and go. And so I've always felt different. I always
felt other, because even within my family, no one looked like me. Going to school in South
Carolina, having a mom that worked outside of the home, having a dad that was in the military who
(04:19):
was never really there. It was just this very special place of learning, figuring things out,
but always knowing that our family is different. I'm different. But I just assumed it was trauma.
It made me different. So it's been kind of an interesting evolution of realizing the yes and
(04:41):
of neuro-spiciness and trauma and how they kind of are interwoven. Not that one has to begot the
other, but I think it's our neuro-spiciness sets our lens to receive the world. Like how do we
experience the world? How do we see it? And I truly believe that trauma happens in a variety of
(05:03):
ways, but it was so much easier for me to go, oh, well, the trauma is the reason I do sports,
and it's not because we weren't told of neuro-spiciness. Right. Yeah, exactly. Well, and as a
sign of female birth bodies, the ways that we often experience neurodivergence is different to
begin with. So you said it was sort of one year with it emerging from your children? I couldn't
(05:28):
see it anymore. Okay, you couldn't deny it. So there were, did you have inklings before? And
what kind of was, what did you see before? And what couldn't you deny? Yeah, so I'm pretty sure,
you know, as I reflect upon kind of like my childhood and many years of therapy, I'm very
sure my dad was neurodivergent. Even with what he did in the military, he did worst case scenario
(05:52):
planning as well as efficiency and things like that. He taught business strategies and stuff. And
I was the kid that got my dad. Like, and my dad had a true, like, he, I was a favorite, one of his
favorites, I would say, my siblings would probably bulk at that, but, you know, but I got him, I
understood, and I like things in order and stuff like that. And so I think as a kid, I always kind
(06:17):
of was doing stuff. But then when I went to college, I really realized I saw the world
differently. And also, I thought we're normal. Turns out, weren't normal. And just also a lot of,
like, masking and fear that I had, you know, I chose college away. It was like, I feel like
(06:39):
college was a bit of an awakening for me to be away from a home. I mean, and also when you grow
up in a traumatic space and abuse of home and things of that nature, like, it is like this,
wait, what do you mean this, you don't do this doesn't happen. And so I think that was one of
the biggest places I also had like crippling like OCD and anxiety that I had never had. Because I
(07:02):
read the situation, right? Yeah, the same way. And know how to fit in. I also went to a beautiful
liberal arts Lutheran school where there really weren't any people that looked at me. Growing up
in South Carolina, I grew up in the capital area near the military base. So there weren't
(07:23):
necessarily as many kids that looked like me, but there were black kids, there were other kids.
There was some diversity. Yeah, absolutely. And then going to school in Hickory, North Carolina,
in the mountains, I was like, what have I done? And so then again, my excuses, right? Because we
didn't know anything about neurodivergence. Like what we saw was extreme cases, primarily male.
(07:47):
Like I wasn't running around the room. I was a good girl. I did work. I was smart. I was
a good girl. Yeah, right. That's my narrative too. And I was always reading the room. Like I was
like, oh, yeah, this is what we need to do. And I was definitely and I could go do whatever I wanted.
I wanted to go read. Right. Go estate and read. Right. And that like that hypervigilance that
(08:11):
reading the room, you know, I think is is a combination of like the home trauma, right,
where you are, if you are in a threatened situation at home and you're not safe there, you learn it
there, but you learn it as a neurodivergent person as well. Because like, you know, we've talked about,
(08:32):
you don't always get the social norms. But one of the problems when not always getting the social
norms is, at least for me, I don't see just one option as to why someone might be saying something.
Yes. I see a hundred options of of it. And then that creates even more anxiety in the social
(08:52):
moments because I'm looking both for what's going to make me feel safe, but also what what does the
other person need to feel safe and what is their motivation for whatever it is that they're saying
or doing that might possibly be triggering me. Yep. It is an interesting place to be. But I think
also with my neurospice and again, you know, the interwoveness of just who you are and the
(09:19):
strengths that you learned to value that, you know, in your journey has kept you safe,
accepted and approved of like, kind of, we all have like trauma conflict responses, right?
And how we approach, we either accommodate, we analyze or we assert, right? It goes in a series
based on kind of where we are in conflict. Yeah. It became really clear to me that one of the things
(09:45):
that I also navigated was a very clear connection with my gut of being like, yeah, I don't like this.
I don't want this. Right. But being neurospicy in the space in which I didn't know that I could not
like something. Right. Yes. I want something. And I think that it was a journey that like now
people would never think like, you know, the girl, the woman that I'm like, you know, I am like,
(10:07):
head, heart, gut, but your gut say, be a bad ass. But like as a child, it was very much masking.
Yes, absolutely. I remember when my daughter was really young, I had a nanny for her one summer
because our, our regular sitter wasn't available. And so I had somebody come in and I always let
Iris kind of choose her caretakers as much as I could, even when she was that little,
(10:31):
like who is she more comfortable with? And she had shown all the signs of being very comfortable
with this person. And then as the summer sort of came on, like it just became very clear that
their personalities didn't really mesh and they weren't really kind of getting along with each
other. And Iris was going along with it because like, you know, this was a situation we were in,
(10:52):
and she'd been hired in this net. And toward the end, I just finally like the last two weeks,
I told her like, I can't, I can't have you anymore. We have to end this. And she wrote me this long
two page letter about how awful I was because I had been changing the schedule on her and I had
pulled some of her money from her because like she had been dependent on, on the income and this
(11:12):
whole thing. And it was kind of traumatic for me as a mom, because you know, she was maybe three at
the time, four. And I, you know, I am conflict avoidant. That's one of my defining characteristics
as a neurodivergent and recovering people pleaser. But a friend of mine said to me,
like when we went through this, I'm like, I let her go. And I'm like, yeah, they just didn't
(11:35):
like each other. And a friend of mine said, like, I love the fact that you are acknowledging that
she doesn't like someone like, and that that's okay. And I'm like, well, well, yeah, like I
didn't think it was revolutionary. But then when I thought about my own childhood, and I thought
about, I recorded a Tik Tok a while ago about how I had, I would always say, especially with music,
(11:58):
I think, because I have a lot of insecurity about like the music that I like, because I like
musicals, like I like teasing music 100% cheesy. That was that is so much. So I'm always like
deferring to other people of what like they don't like, and they do. And my, I told a story about
(12:18):
my brother's girlfriend saying she didn't like Coldplay and me saying I didn't like Coldplay.
And then that, but that wasn't true. I really did like Coldplay. And so like, you know, just
little things like that where like, you don't really know, you know, when you're worried so much,
and you have all that, like, I don't understand what's happening here or why. And so I need to try
to explain it. And I need to try to make it so everybody's comfortable, myself included,
(12:42):
you sacrifice so many of those little pieces of yourself. And I didn't want Iris sacrificing
any of that. So and, and just it's so important for us to be able to be the cycle breakers.
I mean, sometimes when I talk to one of my kids, it feels like every issue. I was like,
(13:02):
Adelaide, I just assume everyone's narrow, spicy. They just think it's ever. Exactly.
And you know, it's so funny to hear my child be like, Well, what is my diagnosis? I feel like
I'm not special because I don't have a diagnosis versus good gravy as a child. It was like, you
wanted to make sure you were in this certain color reading room. Those were the smart kids.
(13:23):
Yep, exactly. Like I, you know, weird thing that I discovered later on in life was that like,
I was a part of the first ever all day kindergarten program in Atlanta. And my dad had had me tested
for intelligence and things like that. And I got to read my file as a kid. And like,
I was definitely a kid that was really, really hyper aware of the world. You know, smart. I
(13:48):
started reading at three. I taught myself how to read at three, like all this stuff I found out.
I was like, Oh, okay, this all makes sense. Right. Let me put all these pieces together.
You know, as a parent, I've worked really hard, like years and years of therapy,
because I knew how I felt. Right. I knew how I didn't want to parent. And, you know, I had
(14:12):
the great privilege of, you know, having kids later. That's another thing. It is, you know,
I didn't fall under the Southern experience of trap of like, go to college to get your MRS.
Right. Yes. Right. I almost did. Like, I almost did. And I think having kids later on in life,
(14:33):
I've had some life experience. I had, I felt like I chose to be a parent. I also didn't know if I
could be and think, thankfully it worked out after some loss and met amazing partner. And so
I knew I wanted to be a great parent who could teach my kids to have skills that I wished more
(14:53):
people had and that I had. And so I, I, I truly just appreciate you giving your child that ability
to also have that ownership. Right. And to talk to themselves. Like I say this to the kids all the
time, guess what? You don't have to like everyone else, but guess what? They might not like you
either, but that doesn't give you the right to be mean. Right. And you can be a good human to people,
(15:17):
but not at the cost of you. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. We, you know, there, there are limitations
as to you don't treat people badly just because you don't necessarily get along with them. You know,
you may self-select and choose not to spend time with that person because, you know, of how you
feel about them or because of how your relationship is, but, or your lack of relationship, you can
(15:40):
choose not to have a relationship. And don't let them touch you. I think that's me. Oh, God, yes.
Space was, you know, this like touch on my journey. I've realized I don't like to be touched unless I
am trusting of people. And again, assumed it was trauma. I mean, yes, and right. Yes. And yeah,
(16:04):
ever like for those that I love and trust, touch is actually like my love language.
Right. And like these little things like sensory wise, you know, I think also marrying my husband
was an aha moment for me around neuro-spiciness because he's not. Okay. Okay. So you're
N.D. and N.D. So it's fascinating and I fascinate him, but I remember him looking at me and going,
(16:34):
you do realize I don't think like you. I can't do that many tasks at one time. Right. I didn't know
how you just did all of that so quickly. I need lights to be on. Yeah. House. I can't live like a
bat. Right. It doesn't bother me when, you know, the cabinet is open. I can't function if like
(17:01):
certain doors are open, or if like cabinets are open, or how I'm able to plan for trips,
eight months out and have everything in care of like it's, but for me it was this, oh, you know,
right. You mean everybody doesn't work this way. I was frustrated when I was like, well,
why didn't you think ahead about that? Or why didn't you do that? And I had a big turning
(17:24):
point in our marriage for me to be like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Chris and I had a similar moment where like
when Iris was little, I would pack everything for every contingency and he didn't understand and he
went through the paper bag and he took out a bunch of stuff to try to make it lighter and easier to
carry and whatnot. And then we ended up at the beach and shouldn't have a hat. And shouldn't have
(17:47):
a hat because he didn't think hats were important and she's bald and she's nine months old and shouldn't
have a hat. And so like there were, and he started to recognize that I often saw things that were
coming or could be coming in a way that he never went past like one or two steps ahead.
(18:10):
And actually our partnership is really good because he doesn't do that. So we're not both
like taking us on like, when you're with someone who, because I've had other partners who have been
even more neuro spicy than I am. And I'm definitely on the hot end of spicy. And
(18:33):
we're not both heading down this doom spiral or this like let's all let's plan for every possible
contingency. Even though he will say he sees lots of options and because he does see lots of options,
but he doesn't always go like I see not just the next two steps. I can look and see the next 10 or
(18:54):
15 or 20 like I can head off in, you know, 10 different directions and 20 steps on each of those,
you know, within minutes of considering something. Absolutely. And it's also like the lens around it.
So like my husband, you know, thinks about things ahead, but often he's a little bit more anxious
than I am. And he does it from a place of more like proactive, like what if it happened fear?
(19:21):
With the way that I see the world is I just assume that we should just be prepared for things.
Because I assume like humans are not going to have things or whether they're
all through with stuff. So I'm like, Oh, no, I'm just going to go ahead and proactively do this.
We should always have band-aids because at some point someone could get hurt or yeah,
of course I have this right. And it's not from a place of fear. It's just the assumption of
(19:45):
this is what we need. Having a husband who is and again meeting my husband like almost,
you know, we got married when we were in our 30s. I think we were 30, 31 was helpful because I had
to figure out who in the hell I was in my 20s. Right. Which is when you should be fair, how you
are. Absolutely. And trying new things. Coming back to kind of the neuro spicy like a harness was
(20:11):
like there were inklings. And also we were just learning about it. Right. Say there are like
three big moments of being like, huh. Over the last, I would say like three or four years of
working with a lot of my clients, me noticing little things about them and just also these
conversations that I was having with these wonderful, amazing clients who were identifying
(20:34):
and figuring out and getting diagnosed. You know, I had one. Did you seek out a diagnosis? Do you
have a diagnosis or are you helping me now? So I have an interesting kind of yes and which again,
it's wonderful. I don't have the formal diagnosis. I what happened was we were in the process of
(20:56):
with, you know, with my children getting them diagnosed and one of the things was working
with, you know, our amazing naturopath who is wonderful and that sounds so woo woo because we
live on the West Coast. But look, when you have illnesses, you got to have a variety of doctors.
Yeah. And she was like, let's do some genetic swabbing on your kids to understand kind of what's
(21:16):
going on over here. Let's go ahead and have yours in justins. And she actually, we were going through
our kids stuff, not shocking our kids are, you know, MTHFR, like we have some, it's the indicators
are there, right? How they process things. And then she comes to my and she goes,
(21:39):
so I have some questions for you. Are you diagnosed with, you know, ADHD or things? I was
like, what are you talking about? She's like, you have the warrior genetics. And she's like,
you're genetic. She's like, so talk to me. Can you be in a room where there's a lot of loud noise?
Do you seek it? No, she just started doing these diagnosed. And I was like, uh-huh. And she's like,
I was like, so what you're saying is she's like, yeah, Jackie, like, let's just go ahead and consider
(22:01):
you neuro spicy. So let's make sure we're doing this, this, this. And so that was a bit of that
validation. When I've talked to my therapist, she was the one that was like, Jackie, you know,
this and trauma go hand in hand. And she's like, I, she's like, would you like a formal diagnosis?
And I was like, yeah, I think I know enough to be like, especially after filling out the check
(22:25):
documents for my children and being like, yes, yes. Wait, and I'm asking Justin, wait, you don't do that.
And then it's like the creepiness of like your phones listening to you and all of your like
feeds are around like neuro spicy. And if you're like sitting there looking about, I do have
(22:46):
four drinks around me, right? Focus at work and forget to eat. And people go, how do you forget
to eat? I have a disassociation from my body off and thought it was trauma. Also, I bump into walls
and I have bruises. I don't know where they come from. And I will. And sometimes they're like,
(23:07):
not just little bruises. They're like, that, that had to have hurt at the time it happened.
And going to the bathroom like quickly, like making it happen, being efficient.
You know, one of the things that I realized and I've embraced is like, I'm a Muppet.
I'm part Muppet, right? And I think that's a partially the reason I'm really good at my job
but also why I love working with kids. You know, when I'm not coaching like adults, because adults
(23:32):
are just big humans that haven't been taught how to actually own their feelings. We know each
other through my work with kids. Like I love working with kids and I love working with adults to
own them, like to trust themselves and to their greatness. Like that is, I figured out that was
my purpose. And I was in so many jobs masking, trying to fit into these like normal spaces and
(23:55):
never fitting in. Yeah. And do you feel like that's one of the things that you love then the most
about this experience and this journey of discovering like who you are with this?
And for me, it's been a bit of a journey of like, gosh, I can actually use all these things that I
was told didn't fit in or, you know, I needed to fix this or do that. And like to go out almost,
(24:21):
you know, seven years ago and start my own business with a little bit of an SU of like, oh, really?
I'm going to do it. And for it to be a practice that I think thrives and like I love the clients
that I work with and like to get to do something where I authentically just get to be present.
I never thought this was possible. You know, I had all of these set plans of who I was supposed
(24:44):
to be and how I was going to do it. And when I got to be a seat like a senior executive at the firm
I wanted to work for, working with the amazing people and thinking, oh my gosh, this is that thing.
And then going, oh my God, I'm dying inside. Right. This doesn't map to my value system.
Like, it just, it, oh, it's so hard. Right. And well, crushing. Yes.
(25:08):
For a long time I defined myself by my career. I knew I could be good at it. I was good at that.
And I could control it. Yeah. Do that. And so, you know, now I think also just having kids is humbling.
Yeah. Right. What was it though? I don't want to, I want to, what was it that that pushed you
(25:28):
then from, if you had reached that level of success and you were, and you had the job at
the place, what was it then that made you decide that wasn't, that wasn't it? Like that, that,
that internal sense of dread? Like was it, was there, was there something that happened? Like,
what was the turning point? You know, the, the turning point was, there was a couple of things
(25:54):
that had kind of started to happen, but the big one was identifying that I was pregnant with my
second child. Okay. That's one of the reasons my child's name is Luca, which means light or spark
in Italian. Is because Luca was my spark that helped me be honest with myself. I, you know,
(26:15):
I was doing this job. I actually started the job pregnant with my first child and like,
nobody told me how to do that. And that parenting and motherhood was going to be
also a grieving process. Yes. And like, I remember, I wrote an article about this, like,
like after Addy was born, because I had an amazing boss, Katie Bhutan, shout out to you,
(26:39):
who pulled me aside and was like, Hey, I see you. I see you trying to be good at everything and
prove yourself and like you're doing all the things. So you come back like, I got to come back
and be better. Right. I'm going to tell you, like, you know, some of the biggest losses of my life,
one of them was like losing my mom and the other was having kids because I had to grieve the lady
(27:00):
that I was. And I'm going to really encourage you to understand that this, you are a different person.
And that has become one of the like biggest parts of what I coach people is like, you get to a fall.
Yes. And you get to grieve. Right. So I, I mean, it was evolution. And so I was, I was at this level,
I was managing multiple people across the country. We were doing great work. I worked at a, you know,
(27:24):
executive search firm, I was coaching, but it was actually a coach that I was working with that was
like, so why aren't you coaching? And I had been coaching like throughout my career, I'd done like
coaching internally, right? And the trainings and stuff like that. She's like, why aren't you coaching
like doing this thing? This is what you light up about. This is what you're good at. And you're
(27:44):
doing all this other stuff. And I was like, because it's not a real job. As I say this to an executive.
Hey, Nero spicy, you say the truth sometimes and people aren't ready for it. Right.
But she was like, well, actually, and so she gave me something that was really strong around
giving me some structure. She's like, Hey, I recommend you go do a program. She's like, I think
(28:08):
you're already a phenomenal coach just from what I'm hearing. Go get your validation. Right.
Doing this. And I was like, Oh, okay, that's crazy. I had a child that was just turning two. I was
like, okay, I'll do this. And so I, I chose to go and do CTI, which is the, the coaches training
Institute at the time it's now called coactive. It's one of the oldest coaching programs in the
(28:30):
country. And I went away for the, like one of the first times away from my baby, right, to Seattle
to do this fundamentals course. And I just didn't feel right. Didn't feel right. And for some reason,
you know, I had a pregnancy test in my bag. I was old. I was like, there's no way. There's no way.
I'm sorry. That's not what this is. I was like, let's go pee on a stick. And it was like three in
(28:54):
the morning. I'd be on a stick and I went, Oh boy. And then thanks. I was in Seattle, thankfully I
was in Seattle and, and you know, Amazon's right there. So I had Amazon bring me within like a
couple of hours, some more pregnancy tests, some eyeshadow, and some chocolate bars.
(29:16):
You had to hit a certain minimum. So I was going to make it fun, right? Right. Makeup.
Chocolate. Let's see if I was pregnant. And I was. And I went into that next day session of this
brand new coaching thing thinking, this is what I want to do. I don't have much time. I now have a
(29:38):
time constraint, which is kind of what I needed, right? Paralysis by possibility with the space.
Oh God, I could do anything. Oh my God, I could do anything. I'm going to sit right here.
Right. Anything. Yes. And I just, I knew I had a timeline. So I actually ended up changing my
track of coaching and I went up to Canada and did it. And every month I was bigger and bigger,
(30:00):
but I got part of a beautiful coaching, like cohort of amazing humans in Canada. And I think
that also changed me to get out of this American mindset. Yeah. And so I did that. And on that
journey, literally was like, what am I doing? And I, this is, this is my calling. This is what
(30:21):
I should do. And then I also brought in, you know, some coaching work to the firm and it became really
clear that like, that's a big contract. Yes, I make good money, but I'm also having to do this,
this job, right? These people, you know, and so I, I knew that I was going to take, I was burning out.
I was also, you know, navigating a variety of other kind of life choices and being like, what am I
(30:44):
doing with experience? I don't, you know, I don't know what I'm doing and decided to just go for it.
I came back and work part-time, but I was always transparent because, you know, anything, my
neurospiciness is very like, let me tell you, because I don't lie very well. Yeah. I just don't.
And thankfully, Katie again, was like, I want to keep you as long as I can have you. But I also,
(31:09):
but I also know you're going to graduate. Right. So I had a great partner who was like,
this is a no-brainer. You go do this. And so I, I launched it and I did it and it was scary,
but it was the best decision I've ever made. That's awesome. So that's why it's called Radical
Spark Coaching. And initially, some of the first marketing, if you go look is a picture of Luca.
(31:33):
Because it was like, I also wanted to be able to have a career where I could be the mom that I
wanted to be. Right. Right. I was tired of pouring into everyone else. Right. And not actually having
the control of the pouring over, you know what I mean? You're working for an organization. You've
got to work with clients. You have their expectations that you have to match and, and you can't say
(31:56):
that's not in alignment or no, that's not what I'm doing. That's a whole other conversation around,
you know, when you know it's not fit for you and then you start getting resentful. Yeah. Or you just
like, you disassociate. Yeah. Right. So I launched it and it has been one of the coolest things I've
ever done. And the people I get to champion for, like I realized I was not going to be this, this
(32:22):
leader, but what I can use the person, like I often nerdy reference to people that I am the Sam
wise to so many leaders like I'm gonna keep you Frodo. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna, I'm
gonna be there with you. Right. I'm in a champion you want, but I'm gonna make sure you want to
keep going. Right. Like I literally get paid to be a person who, who gets to be on these really
(32:48):
cool leadership journeys and see people that I work with on the news or passing policies. And
I'm like, Oh my gosh, right. Person and like that person is so cool. And so I think that's
awesome change of what I did it. You know, you would ask some other things that come with the
neuro spicy like superpowers. One of them is a really, and it's both, I think it's a double
(33:11):
edge sword is smell. Yes. Gosh, it was so bad. I was like just these hyper, hyper sensory factors.
Extreme sense of smell, extreme sense of taste. Also, I've always been particular about my fabrics,
(33:32):
like cutting like tags out, wearing soft clothing, actually liking like tight fit certain things.
Like the kid I would ask to be swaddled as a child, like to sleep. Right. Yeah. Like there,
when I look back, I'm like, Oh, right. Yeah. I mean, hindsight is it is, it is easier to go back
(33:57):
and be like, Oh, there was some pretty, pretty big indicators pretty early on. Yeah. But we
didn't know I feel like our generation, you know, is one that because we've been doing the work,
we now have this ownership and understanding, which again, is also us trying to control things.
(34:19):
But hey, that's fine. But it's fine. But like having kids who get to be excited to know that
there is life beyond binaries, doesn't mean you can be a jerk or stuff like that. In fact,
I believe it makes kids kinder and more aware of their actions and self by having a freedom of
(34:44):
understanding choice and also understanding like, gosh, that person sees the world a little bit
different than you. Yeah. Right. I think that is a gift that we get to give this next generation.
And for some people who don't understand it, they're like, Oh, that's just an excuse. I'm sure
anything can be an excuse. Right. Right. I think I just along those lines, I just heard someone say,
(35:10):
you know, an excuse like, like I always part of my what I think is the manifestation of my
autism is this, this need that like one of my special interests that has always persisted
is language. Like I am really good with words. And when I did, I think I talked about this in
the first episode and my interview, when I did my assessment, there was one word I did not know
(35:36):
the dictionary definition of and, and, and it was like 50 words like I and I knew like I could
just spit them out and I watched her face as I was doing this. And I'm like, if you hit it,
like this is it, this is a special interest. And so I always want to find the words that,
that put them meaning in the explanation forward. And I get upset when people say I'm,
(36:00):
I'm making excuses because that's not what I'm doing. I'm trying to explain. And so
I just heard someone say the difference between an explanation and an excuse is when you're making
an excuse, you're, you're, you're wanting to continue doing whatever it is you've, you've done.
And if you have hurt someone and you're trying to explain why you want to continue to hurt them,
(36:23):
that's an excuse. But when you are trying to explain where you were, where your processing was,
why it happened the way it happened, and how you're working on changing it, that, that is not
an excuse. And that was like really nice for me to be able to finally say like, I'm not trying to
(36:44):
excuse myself from this so I can do it again. Like, and I won't say I won't do it again because
I am an evolving human. And I'm growing in some very significant ways right now. And
this is really important. But I will make mistakes. And there's a very different thing
from making mistakes and saying, it's okay that I do this and making mistakes and saying I'm working
(37:08):
on not doing this because it's not okay. There's, there's responsibility there that I think that
is important. You know, I, I'm always telling the kids that like, what we do is, you know,
be thoughtful of that, but it's really the repair and the learning. Right. Yeah. That is what unpacks
kind of like the spaces to do it again, but also just the humanity of it. It's, it's just a lot to
(37:36):
unpack the space of that otherness and that spicy brain where it's like I've, I, I had to learn to
stop justifying my answers or validate because I think this comes with ownership and awareness and
maybe just age of being like, guess what? Not everyone gets to be brought along. Right. Not
everyone gets to, to understand me because you know what? They don't want to. Right. Right. And
(38:02):
when people show you who they are, you believe them. Believe them. Yes. Absolutely. And I spent
so much time trying to like validate or justify or if I could just explain it to them the right way.
Right. They'll get it or get me or see it and just learning sometimes just be like, no.
You just don't, and you don't deserve my time and energy for me to try to,
(38:26):
to try to unpack this for you. That's okay. And that's okay. Right. And not allowed for us. I know,
disappointing people like I put as a priority right now, like I'm, I'm going to disappoint you.
You complete sentence. Right. Yeah. They already is both kindness and harm reduction.
(38:46):
Exactly. So, so if you had the opportunity with where you're at now and at this point in your,
your journey and in kind of your recognition and you could go back and tell yourself something
about where you're at now versus where you were then. That's not your diagnosis that isn't,
you know, ADHD and, you know, complex trauma. What, what would you say to, to your younger self?
(39:12):
Yeah. I mean, this is such a great question. It's definitely one that I have.
The answer has evolved throughout like my growth. The biggest one is you are good.
You know, you are not broken. You are absolutely made the way that you were supposed to be. And
(39:37):
that, you know, trust yourself and love yourself. I think is the biggest thing.
And that like other people are never going to validate you the way that you could validate
yourself. And that was just big learning and no, it was okay. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.
Thank you. Thanks for asking me. It's been, it's definitely when you have little humans growing
(40:01):
up in front of you, it's trauma. It's trying to be noticed like, because, oh my gosh, how was I
like that? Or why does that frustrate me that my kid? Oh, it's because I was never allowed to do that.
Yeah. I remember having a conversation not that long ago with a friend of mine who
knew her daughter is six weeks younger than Iris. So we were, we were pregnant at the same time.
And she's like, I'm having all this stuff pull up from my childhood. And I'm like, yep. And she's
(40:29):
like, how do you know this is what I'm about to say? And I'm like, because like we're watching our
children at the ages that we were. And so when you hit the ages that you experience trauma with your
kids, your trauma is going to creep back up into your, into your mind. Like there, it's, it's,
and especially if it's unresolved and unabsolutely. And it is, it is a choice to be
(40:53):
and it's quite frankly a privilege to be aware and to have help to not continue the cycles
of it. Right. And it's also innately in our genetics in our bones. We carry the trauma of
our ancestors within us. Right. So we have to have this kindness to understand this
solution as an evolving human. And I think that is so important for us to have. So hopefully this is
(41:20):
helpful to share with people just, you know, you are good. You are you, man, you're going to make
mistakes. So what are you learning? And how are you? That sounds like a radical spark to me.
Yeah, you're so cool. Thank you so much for joining us. So would you like to let our listeners know
like where they can find you and yeah, I have my own website radicalsparkcoaching.com. I am, you
(41:47):
know, that's my website. I love speaking. I love sharing with people. I love being able to just
kind of connect. And, you know, the big reason I wanted to do this was just to kind of normalize
neuro-spiciness and how it is an invisible disability that so many of us just don't even put into that
(42:07):
confine of disability. Absolutely. And that it's okay to understand what you're great at and understand
that just what's not going to be your jam. Right. Yeah. And you don't have to be, I don't know,
part of my good girl training was having to be good at everything. Yeah. And like, you don't have
to be good at everything. It's okay to pick things that you like. And it's okay just to do the things
(42:28):
that you like to do. Yeah. And so like finding me, like I think eventually I'm going to be doing some
more stuff, auto like self self-guided stuff with my work. But right now I just, I love working with
organizations. I love working. I love speaking and I love coaching people. So I mean, go find me there.
But just my biggest thing is follow this podcast and all the words of Regina. You know, if you
(42:51):
ever want to have me back, feel free to have a chat. But this is fun to talk to someone else who gets
it. Yes. That was great. Thank you so much. Thank you.
A huge thank you to Jackie for sharing her story with us. Be sure to follow
Radical Spark coaching on Facebook or LinkedIn. Make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever
(43:16):
you listen, like and leave a review and share with your spicy brain friends or someone you know
who loves someone with a spicy brain. Follow us on Instagram at Divergent Paths Consulting,
No Spaces. And until next time, stay spicy.
When I went to college, I really realized I saw the world differently and also think
(00:07):
I thought were normal. Turns out weren't normal. And so then again, my excuses, right? We didn't
know anything about neurodivergence. Like what we saw was, you know, extreme cases primarily
male. Like I wasn't running around the room. I was a good girl. I did the work. I was smart.
I was a hacker. Yeah. Right. That's my narrative too. Hello and welcome to Divergent Paths. I'm
(00:42):
your host, Dr. Regina McMenamey. I am a doctor, but not that kind of doctor. And this is a podcast
non-medical advice. Have you always felt a little different, but didn't know why? Have you struggled
with tasks that some people seem to handle with ease? Are you mystified by social norms and
interactions? Divergent Paths is a podcast for late diagnosed neurodivergent people to discuss
(01:06):
their journeys, discovering the joys and frustrations of having a spicy brain. Each episode,
I will interview someone who discovered they have ADHD, autism, or a combination of the two
later in life. What defines a later in life diagnosis? Anytime the realization happens
outside of the quote unquote norm of childhood and adolescence. In this episode, I chat with
(01:31):
Jackie Hanselman-Sergy from Radical Spark Coaching. We talk about the moment she could no longer
deny her spicy brain and the changes she made to her path because of it. So stay tuned and thanks
for listening to Divergent Paths. Welcome to the show, Jackie. Thank you so much for joining us.
(01:54):
Why don't you give me a little background and tell me a little bit about yourself?
My name is Jackie Hanselman-Sergy, and I think the most important thing is just I am an evolving
human. Professionally, I'm an executive and leadership coach, as well as I kind of like to
think of myself as a bit of a career guide to people. I founded my own coaching practice, Radical
(02:18):
Spark Coaching, over seven years ago, and it really maps towards working with people who
identify as women, leaders of color, and working parents, because those are three areas that I
identify as. And it's just been the greatest joy to be able to be a bit of a guide and someone who
(02:40):
can encourage other people to be evolving humans. I think that's a lot of it. I am a mom. I am a
working mom. I think I'm so thankful to be a mom. It wasn't something I was sure I was going to be
able to do. And it's in it, frankly, because of my kids, I realized the spiciness. It was kind of like
you couldn't deny the spiciness when you have little humans. Wait a second. This space of like
(03:09):
neuro-spiciness is one where it's been a bit of a journey, because it's just been something where when
you grow up, I am someone who grew up in the South with a military family. Yeah, blended family,
both parents, it was the non-healthy Brady Bunch. People who married each other that brought kids
(03:37):
and then surprised, there's me. You're in the South and your family looks like the Model United
Nations. And you have some siblings that are also half Asian from a different parent. You have another
sibling that's half black from another parent, family member. And it's this hodge-hodge, and then
(03:57):
they throw you deep into South Carolina to go and go. And so I've always felt different. I always
felt other, because even within my family, no one looked like me. Going to school in South
Carolina, having a mom that worked outside of the home, having a dad that was in the military who
(04:19):
was never really there. It was just this very special place of learning, figuring things out,
but always knowing that our family is different. I'm different. But I just assumed it was trauma.
It made me different. So it's been kind of an interesting evolution of realizing the yes and
(04:41):
of neuro-spiciness and trauma and how they kind of are interwoven. Not that one has to begot the
other, but I think it's our neuro-spiciness sets our lens to receive the world. Like how do we
experience the world? How do we see it? And I truly believe that trauma happens in a variety of
(05:03):
ways, but it was so much easier for me to go, oh, well, the trauma is the reason I do sports,
and it's not because we weren't told of neuro-spiciness. Right. Yeah, exactly. Well, and as a
sign of female birth bodies, the ways that we often experience neurodivergence is different to
begin with. So you said it was sort of one year with it emerging from your children? I couldn't
(05:28):
see it anymore. Okay, you couldn't deny it. So there were, did you have inklings before? And
what kind of was, what did you see before? And what couldn't you deny? Yeah, so I'm pretty sure,
you know, as I reflect upon kind of like my childhood and many years of therapy, I'm very
sure my dad was neurodivergent. Even with what he did in the military, he did worst case scenario
(05:52):
planning as well as efficiency and things like that. He taught business strategies and stuff. And
I was the kid that got my dad. Like, and my dad had a true, like, he, I was a favorite, one of his
favorites, I would say, my siblings would probably bulk at that, but, you know, but I got him, I
understood, and I like things in order and stuff like that. And so I think as a kid, I always kind
(06:17):
of was doing stuff. But then when I went to college, I really realized I saw the world
differently. And also, I thought we're normal. Turns out, weren't normal. And just also a lot of,
like, masking and fear that I had, you know, I chose college away. It was like, I feel like
(06:39):
college was a bit of an awakening for me to be away from a home. I mean, and also when you grow
up in a traumatic space and abuse of home and things of that nature, like, it is like this,
wait, what do you mean this, you don't do this doesn't happen. And so I think that was one of
the biggest places I also had like crippling like OCD and anxiety that I had never had. Because I
(07:02):
read the situation, right? Yeah, the same way. And know how to fit in. I also went to a beautiful
liberal arts Lutheran school where there really weren't any people that looked at me. Growing up
in South Carolina, I grew up in the capital area near the military base. So there weren't
(07:23):
necessarily as many kids that looked like me, but there were black kids, there were other kids.
There was some diversity. Yeah, absolutely. And then going to school in Hickory, North Carolina,
in the mountains, I was like, what have I done? And so then again, my excuses, right? Because we
didn't know anything about neurodivergence. Like what we saw was extreme cases, primarily male.
(07:47):
Like I wasn't running around the room. I was a good girl. I did work. I was smart. I was
a good girl. Yeah, right. That's my narrative too. And I was always reading the room. Like I was
like, oh, yeah, this is what we need to do. And I was definitely and I could go do whatever I wanted.
I wanted to go read. Right. Go estate and read. Right. And that like that hypervigilance that
(08:11):
reading the room, you know, I think is is a combination of like the home trauma, right,
where you are, if you are in a threatened situation at home and you're not safe there, you learn it
there, but you learn it as a neurodivergent person as well. Because like, you know, we've talked about,
(08:32):
you don't always get the social norms. But one of the problems when not always getting the social
norms is, at least for me, I don't see just one option as to why someone might be saying something.
Yes. I see a hundred options of of it. And then that creates even more anxiety in the social
(08:52):
moments because I'm looking both for what's going to make me feel safe, but also what what does the
other person need to feel safe and what is their motivation for whatever it is that they're saying
or doing that might possibly be triggering me. Yep. It is an interesting place to be. But I think
also with my neurospice and again, you know, the interwoveness of just who you are and the
(09:19):
strengths that you learned to value that, you know, in your journey has kept you safe,
accepted and approved of like, kind of, we all have like trauma conflict responses, right?
And how we approach, we either accommodate, we analyze or we assert, right? It goes in a series
based on kind of where we are in conflict. Yeah. It became really clear to me that one of the things
(09:45):
that I also navigated was a very clear connection with my gut of being like, yeah, I don't like this.
I don't want this. Right. But being neurospicy in the space in which I didn't know that I could not
like something. Right. Yes. I want something. And I think that it was a journey that like now
people would never think like, you know, the girl, the woman that I'm like, you know, I am like,
(10:07):
head, heart, gut, but your gut say, be a bad ass. But like as a child, it was very much masking.
Yes, absolutely. I remember when my daughter was really young, I had a nanny for her one summer
because our, our regular sitter wasn't available. And so I had somebody come in and I always let
Iris kind of choose her caretakers as much as I could, even when she was that little,
(10:31):
like who is she more comfortable with? And she had shown all the signs of being very comfortable
with this person. And then as the summer sort of came on, like it just became very clear that
their personalities didn't really mesh and they weren't really kind of getting along with each
other. And Iris was going along with it because like, you know, this was a situation we were in,
(10:52):
and she'd been hired in this net. And toward the end, I just finally like the last two weeks,
I told her like, I can't, I can't have you anymore. We have to end this. And she wrote me this long
two page letter about how awful I was because I had been changing the schedule on her and I had
pulled some of her money from her because like she had been dependent on, on the income and this
(11:12):
whole thing. And it was kind of traumatic for me as a mom, because you know, she was maybe three at
the time, four. And I, you know, I am conflict avoidant. That's one of my defining characteristics
as a neurodivergent and recovering people pleaser. But a friend of mine said to me,
like when we went through this, I'm like, I let her go. And I'm like, yeah, they just didn't
(11:35):
like each other. And a friend of mine said, like, I love the fact that you are acknowledging that
she doesn't like someone like, and that that's okay. And I'm like, well, well, yeah, like I
didn't think it was revolutionary. But then when I thought about my own childhood, and I thought
about, I recorded a Tik Tok a while ago about how I had, I would always say, especially with music,
(11:58):
I think, because I have a lot of insecurity about like the music that I like, because I like
musicals, like I like teasing music 100% cheesy. That was that is so much. So I'm always like
deferring to other people of what like they don't like, and they do. And my, I told a story about
(12:18):
my brother's girlfriend saying she didn't like Coldplay and me saying I didn't like Coldplay.
And then that, but that wasn't true. I really did like Coldplay. And so like, you know, just
little things like that where like, you don't really know, you know, when you're worried so much,
and you have all that, like, I don't understand what's happening here or why. And so I need to try
to explain it. And I need to try to make it so everybody's comfortable, myself included,
(12:42):
you sacrifice so many of those little pieces of yourself. And I didn't want Iris sacrificing
any of that. So and, and just it's so important for us to be able to be the cycle breakers.
I mean, sometimes when I talk to one of my kids, it feels like every issue. I was like,
(13:02):
Adelaide, I just assume everyone's narrow, spicy. They just think it's ever. Exactly.
And you know, it's so funny to hear my child be like, Well, what is my diagnosis? I feel like
I'm not special because I don't have a diagnosis versus good gravy as a child. It was like, you
wanted to make sure you were in this certain color reading room. Those were the smart kids.
(13:23):
Yep, exactly. Like I, you know, weird thing that I discovered later on in life was that like,
I was a part of the first ever all day kindergarten program in Atlanta. And my dad had had me tested
for intelligence and things like that. And I got to read my file as a kid. And like,
I was definitely a kid that was really, really hyper aware of the world. You know, smart. I
(13:48):
started reading at three. I taught myself how to read at three, like all this stuff I found out.
I was like, Oh, okay, this all makes sense. Right. Let me put all these pieces together.
You know, as a parent, I've worked really hard, like years and years of therapy,
because I knew how I felt. Right. I knew how I didn't want to parent. And, you know, I had
(14:12):
the great privilege of, you know, having kids later. That's another thing. It is, you know,
I didn't fall under the Southern experience of trap of like, go to college to get your MRS.
Right. Yes. Right. I almost did. Like, I almost did. And I think having kids later on in life,
(14:33):
I've had some life experience. I had, I felt like I chose to be a parent. I also didn't know if I
could be and think, thankfully it worked out after some loss and met amazing partner. And so
I knew I wanted to be a great parent who could teach my kids to have skills that I wished more
(14:53):
people had and that I had. And so I, I, I truly just appreciate you giving your child that ability
to also have that ownership. Right. And to talk to themselves. Like I say this to the kids all the
time, guess what? You don't have to like everyone else, but guess what? They might not like you
either, but that doesn't give you the right to be mean. Right. And you can be a good human to people,
(15:17):
but not at the cost of you. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. We, you know, there, there are limitations
as to you don't treat people badly just because you don't necessarily get along with them. You know,
you may self-select and choose not to spend time with that person because, you know, of how you
feel about them or because of how your relationship is, but, or your lack of relationship, you can
(15:40):
choose not to have a relationship. And don't let them touch you. I think that's me. Oh, God, yes.
Space was, you know, this like touch on my journey. I've realized I don't like to be touched unless I
am trusting of people. And again, assumed it was trauma. I mean, yes, and right. Yes. And yeah,
(16:04):
ever like for those that I love and trust, touch is actually like my love language.
Right. And like these little things like sensory wise, you know, I think also marrying my husband
was an aha moment for me around neuro-spiciness because he's not. Okay. Okay. So you're
N.D. and N.D. So it's fascinating and I fascinate him, but I remember him looking at me and going,
(16:34):
you do realize I don't think like you. I can't do that many tasks at one time. Right. I didn't know
how you just did all of that so quickly. I need lights to be on. Yeah. House. I can't live like a
bat. Right. It doesn't bother me when, you know, the cabinet is open. I can't function if like
(17:01):
certain doors are open, or if like cabinets are open, or how I'm able to plan for trips,
eight months out and have everything in care of like it's, but for me it was this, oh, you know,
right. You mean everybody doesn't work this way. I was frustrated when I was like, well,
why didn't you think ahead about that? Or why didn't you do that? And I had a big turning
(17:24):
point in our marriage for me to be like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Chris and I had a similar moment where like
when Iris was little, I would pack everything for every contingency and he didn't understand and he
went through the paper bag and he took out a bunch of stuff to try to make it lighter and easier to
carry and whatnot. And then we ended up at the beach and shouldn't have a hat. And shouldn't have
(17:47):
a hat because he didn't think hats were important and she's bald and she's nine months old and shouldn't
have a hat. And so like there were, and he started to recognize that I often saw things that were
coming or could be coming in a way that he never went past like one or two steps ahead.
(18:10):
And actually our partnership is really good because he doesn't do that. So we're not both
like taking us on like, when you're with someone who, because I've had other partners who have been
even more neuro spicy than I am. And I'm definitely on the hot end of spicy. And
(18:33):
we're not both heading down this doom spiral or this like let's all let's plan for every possible
contingency. Even though he will say he sees lots of options and because he does see lots of options,
but he doesn't always go like I see not just the next two steps. I can look and see the next 10 or
(18:54):
15 or 20 like I can head off in, you know, 10 different directions and 20 steps on each of those,
you know, within minutes of considering something. Absolutely. And it's also like the lens around it.
So like my husband, you know, thinks about things ahead, but often he's a little bit more anxious
than I am. And he does it from a place of more like proactive, like what if it happened fear?
(19:21):
With the way that I see the world is I just assume that we should just be prepared for things.
Because I assume like humans are not going to have things or whether they're
all through with stuff. So I'm like, Oh, no, I'm just going to go ahead and proactively do this.
We should always have band-aids because at some point someone could get hurt or yeah,
of course I have this right. And it's not from a place of fear. It's just the assumption of
(19:45):
this is what we need. Having a husband who is and again meeting my husband like almost,
you know, we got married when we were in our 30s. I think we were 30, 31 was helpful because I had
to figure out who in the hell I was in my 20s. Right. Which is when you should be fair, how you
are. Absolutely. And trying new things. Coming back to kind of the neuro spicy like a harness was
(20:11):
like there were inklings. And also we were just learning about it. Right. Say there are like
three big moments of being like, huh. Over the last, I would say like three or four years of
working with a lot of my clients, me noticing little things about them and just also these
conversations that I was having with these wonderful, amazing clients who were identifying
(20:34):
and figuring out and getting diagnosed. You know, I had one. Did you seek out a diagnosis? Do you
have a diagnosis or are you helping me now? So I have an interesting kind of yes and which again,
it's wonderful. I don't have the formal diagnosis. I what happened was we were in the process of
(20:56):
with, you know, with my children getting them diagnosed and one of the things was working
with, you know, our amazing naturopath who is wonderful and that sounds so woo woo because we
live on the West Coast. But look, when you have illnesses, you got to have a variety of doctors.
Yeah. And she was like, let's do some genetic swabbing on your kids to understand kind of what's
(21:16):
going on over here. Let's go ahead and have yours in justins. And she actually, we were going through
our kids stuff, not shocking our kids are, you know, MTHFR, like we have some, it's the indicators
are there, right? How they process things. And then she comes to my and she goes,
(21:39):
so I have some questions for you. Are you diagnosed with, you know, ADHD or things? I was
like, what are you talking about? She's like, you have the warrior genetics. And she's like,
you're genetic. She's like, so talk to me. Can you be in a room where there's a lot of loud noise?
Do you seek it? No, she just started doing these diagnosed. And I was like, uh-huh. And she's like,
I was like, so what you're saying is she's like, yeah, Jackie, like, let's just go ahead and consider
(22:01):
you neuro spicy. So let's make sure we're doing this, this, this. And so that was a bit of that
validation. When I've talked to my therapist, she was the one that was like, Jackie, you know,
this and trauma go hand in hand. And she's like, I, she's like, would you like a formal diagnosis?
And I was like, yeah, I think I know enough to be like, especially after filling out the check
(22:25):
documents for my children and being like, yes, yes. Wait, and I'm asking Justin, wait, you don't do that.
And then it's like the creepiness of like your phones listening to you and all of your like
feeds are around like neuro spicy. And if you're like sitting there looking about, I do have
(22:46):
four drinks around me, right? Focus at work and forget to eat. And people go, how do you forget
to eat? I have a disassociation from my body off and thought it was trauma. Also, I bump into walls
and I have bruises. I don't know where they come from. And I will. And sometimes they're like,
(23:07):
not just little bruises. They're like, that, that had to have hurt at the time it happened.
And going to the bathroom like quickly, like making it happen, being efficient.
You know, one of the things that I realized and I've embraced is like, I'm a Muppet.
I'm part Muppet, right? And I think that's a partially the reason I'm really good at my job
but also why I love working with kids. You know, when I'm not coaching like adults, because adults
(23:32):
are just big humans that haven't been taught how to actually own their feelings. We know each
other through my work with kids. Like I love working with kids and I love working with adults to
own them, like to trust themselves and to their greatness. Like that is, I figured out that was
my purpose. And I was in so many jobs masking, trying to fit into these like normal spaces and
(23:55):
never fitting in. Yeah. And do you feel like that's one of the things that you love then the most
about this experience and this journey of discovering like who you are with this?
And for me, it's been a bit of a journey of like, gosh, I can actually use all these things that I
was told didn't fit in or, you know, I needed to fix this or do that. And like to go out almost,
(24:21):
you know, seven years ago and start my own business with a little bit of an SU of like, oh, really?
I'm going to do it. And for it to be a practice that I think thrives and like I love the clients
that I work with and like to get to do something where I authentically just get to be present.
I never thought this was possible. You know, I had all of these set plans of who I was supposed
(24:44):
to be and how I was going to do it. And when I got to be a seat like a senior executive at the firm
I wanted to work for, working with the amazing people and thinking, oh my gosh, this is that thing.
And then going, oh my God, I'm dying inside. Right. This doesn't map to my value system.
Like, it just, it, oh, it's so hard. Right. And well, crushing. Yes.
(25:08):
For a long time I defined myself by my career. I knew I could be good at it. I was good at that.
And I could control it. Yeah. Do that. And so, you know, now I think also just having kids is humbling.
Yeah. Right. What was it though? I don't want to, I want to, what was it that that pushed you
(25:28):
then from, if you had reached that level of success and you were, and you had the job at
the place, what was it then that made you decide that wasn't, that wasn't it? Like that, that,
that internal sense of dread? Like was it, was there, was there something that happened? Like,
what was the turning point? You know, the, the turning point was, there was a couple of things
(25:54):
that had kind of started to happen, but the big one was identifying that I was pregnant with my
second child. Okay. That's one of the reasons my child's name is Luca, which means light or spark
in Italian. Is because Luca was my spark that helped me be honest with myself. I, you know,
(26:15):
I was doing this job. I actually started the job pregnant with my first child and like,
nobody told me how to do that. And that parenting and motherhood was going to be
also a grieving process. Yes. And like, I remember, I wrote an article about this, like,
like after Addy was born, because I had an amazing boss, Katie Bhutan, shout out to you,
(26:39):
who pulled me aside and was like, Hey, I see you. I see you trying to be good at everything and
prove yourself and like you're doing all the things. So you come back like, I got to come back
and be better. Right. I'm going to tell you, like, you know, some of the biggest losses of my life,
one of them was like losing my mom and the other was having kids because I had to grieve the lady
(27:00):
that I was. And I'm going to really encourage you to understand that this, you are a different person.
And that has become one of the like biggest parts of what I coach people is like, you get to a fall.
Yes. And you get to grieve. Right. So I, I mean, it was evolution. And so I was, I was at this level,
I was managing multiple people across the country. We were doing great work. I worked at a, you know,
(27:24):
executive search firm, I was coaching, but it was actually a coach that I was working with that was
like, so why aren't you coaching? And I had been coaching like throughout my career, I'd done like
coaching internally, right? And the trainings and stuff like that. She's like, why aren't you coaching
like doing this thing? This is what you light up about. This is what you're good at. And you're
(27:44):
doing all this other stuff. And I was like, because it's not a real job. As I say this to an executive.
Hey, Nero spicy, you say the truth sometimes and people aren't ready for it. Right.
But she was like, well, actually, and so she gave me something that was really strong around
giving me some structure. She's like, Hey, I recommend you go do a program. She's like, I think
(28:08):
you're already a phenomenal coach just from what I'm hearing. Go get your validation. Right.
Doing this. And I was like, Oh, okay, that's crazy. I had a child that was just turning two. I was
like, okay, I'll do this. And so I, I chose to go and do CTI, which is the, the coaches training
Institute at the time it's now called coactive. It's one of the oldest coaching programs in the
(28:30):
country. And I went away for the, like one of the first times away from my baby, right, to Seattle
to do this fundamentals course. And I just didn't feel right. Didn't feel right. And for some reason,
you know, I had a pregnancy test in my bag. I was old. I was like, there's no way. There's no way.
I'm sorry. That's not what this is. I was like, let's go pee on a stick. And it was like three in
(28:54):
the morning. I'd be on a stick and I went, Oh boy. And then thanks. I was in Seattle, thankfully I
was in Seattle and, and you know, Amazon's right there. So I had Amazon bring me within like a
couple of hours, some more pregnancy tests, some eyeshadow, and some chocolate bars.
(29:16):
You had to hit a certain minimum. So I was going to make it fun, right? Right. Makeup.
Chocolate. Let's see if I was pregnant. And I was. And I went into that next day session of this
brand new coaching thing thinking, this is what I want to do. I don't have much time. I now have a
(29:38):
time constraint, which is kind of what I needed, right? Paralysis by possibility with the space.
Oh God, I could do anything. Oh my God, I could do anything. I'm going to sit right here.
Right. Anything. Yes. And I just, I knew I had a timeline. So I actually ended up changing my
track of coaching and I went up to Canada and did it. And every month I was bigger and bigger,
(30:00):
but I got part of a beautiful coaching, like cohort of amazing humans in Canada. And I think
that also changed me to get out of this American mindset. Yeah. And so I did that. And on that
journey, literally was like, what am I doing? And I, this is, this is my calling. This is what
(30:21):
I should do. And then I also brought in, you know, some coaching work to the firm and it became really
clear that like, that's a big contract. Yes, I make good money, but I'm also having to do this,
this job, right? These people, you know, and so I, I knew that I was going to take, I was burning out.
I was also, you know, navigating a variety of other kind of life choices and being like, what am I
(30:44):
doing with experience? I don't, you know, I don't know what I'm doing and decided to just go for it.
I came back and work part-time, but I was always transparent because, you know, anything, my
neurospiciness is very like, let me tell you, because I don't lie very well. Yeah. I just don't.
And thankfully, Katie again, was like, I want to keep you as long as I can have you. But I also,
(31:09):
but I also know you're going to graduate. Right. So I had a great partner who was like,
this is a no-brainer. You go do this. And so I, I launched it and I did it and it was scary,
but it was the best decision I've ever made. That's awesome. So that's why it's called Radical
Spark Coaching. And initially, some of the first marketing, if you go look is a picture of Luca.
(31:33):
Because it was like, I also wanted to be able to have a career where I could be the mom that I
wanted to be. Right. Right. I was tired of pouring into everyone else. Right. And not actually having
the control of the pouring over, you know what I mean? You're working for an organization. You've
got to work with clients. You have their expectations that you have to match and, and you can't say
(31:56):
that's not in alignment or no, that's not what I'm doing. That's a whole other conversation around,
you know, when you know it's not fit for you and then you start getting resentful. Yeah. Or you just
like, you disassociate. Yeah. Right. So I launched it and it has been one of the coolest things I've
ever done. And the people I get to champion for, like I realized I was not going to be this, this
(32:22):
leader, but what I can use the person, like I often nerdy reference to people that I am the Sam
wise to so many leaders like I'm gonna keep you Frodo. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna, I'm
gonna be there with you. Right. I'm in a champion you want, but I'm gonna make sure you want to
keep going. Right. Like I literally get paid to be a person who, who gets to be on these really
(32:48):
cool leadership journeys and see people that I work with on the news or passing policies. And
I'm like, Oh my gosh, right. Person and like that person is so cool. And so I think that's
awesome change of what I did it. You know, you would ask some other things that come with the
neuro spicy like superpowers. One of them is a really, and it's both, I think it's a double
(33:11):
edge sword is smell. Yes. Gosh, it was so bad. I was like just these hyper, hyper sensory factors.
Extreme sense of smell, extreme sense of taste. Also, I've always been particular about my fabrics,
(33:32):
like cutting like tags out, wearing soft clothing, actually liking like tight fit certain things.
Like the kid I would ask to be swaddled as a child, like to sleep. Right. Yeah. Like there,
when I look back, I'm like, Oh, right. Yeah. I mean, hindsight is it is, it is easier to go back
(33:57):
and be like, Oh, there was some pretty, pretty big indicators pretty early on. Yeah. But we
didn't know I feel like our generation, you know, is one that because we've been doing the work,
we now have this ownership and understanding, which again, is also us trying to control things.
(34:19):
But hey, that's fine. But it's fine. But like having kids who get to be excited to know that
there is life beyond binaries, doesn't mean you can be a jerk or stuff like that. In fact,
I believe it makes kids kinder and more aware of their actions and self by having a freedom of
(34:44):
understanding choice and also understanding like, gosh, that person sees the world a little bit
different than you. Yeah. Right. I think that is a gift that we get to give this next generation.
And for some people who don't understand it, they're like, Oh, that's just an excuse. I'm sure
anything can be an excuse. Right. Right. I think I just along those lines, I just heard someone say,
(35:10):
you know, an excuse like, like I always part of my what I think is the manifestation of my
autism is this, this need that like one of my special interests that has always persisted
is language. Like I am really good with words. And when I did, I think I talked about this in
the first episode and my interview, when I did my assessment, there was one word I did not know
(35:36):
the dictionary definition of and, and, and it was like 50 words like I and I knew like I could
just spit them out and I watched her face as I was doing this. And I'm like, if you hit it,
like this is it, this is a special interest. And so I always want to find the words that,
that put them meaning in the explanation forward. And I get upset when people say I'm,
(36:00):
I'm making excuses because that's not what I'm doing. I'm trying to explain. And so
I just heard someone say the difference between an explanation and an excuse is when you're making
an excuse, you're, you're, you're wanting to continue doing whatever it is you've, you've done.
And if you have hurt someone and you're trying to explain why you want to continue to hurt them,
(36:23):
that's an excuse. But when you are trying to explain where you were, where your processing was,
why it happened the way it happened, and how you're working on changing it, that, that is not
an excuse. And that was like really nice for me to be able to finally say like, I'm not trying to
(36:44):
excuse myself from this so I can do it again. Like, and I won't say I won't do it again because
I am an evolving human. And I'm growing in some very significant ways right now. And
this is really important. But I will make mistakes. And there's a very different thing
from making mistakes and saying, it's okay that I do this and making mistakes and saying I'm working
(37:08):
on not doing this because it's not okay. There's, there's responsibility there that I think that
is important. You know, I, I'm always telling the kids that like, what we do is, you know,
be thoughtful of that, but it's really the repair and the learning. Right. Yeah. That is what unpacks
kind of like the spaces to do it again, but also just the humanity of it. It's, it's just a lot to
(37:36):
unpack the space of that otherness and that spicy brain where it's like I've, I, I had to learn to
stop justifying my answers or validate because I think this comes with ownership and awareness and
maybe just age of being like, guess what? Not everyone gets to be brought along. Right. Not
everyone gets to, to understand me because you know what? They don't want to. Right. Right. And
(38:02):
when people show you who they are, you believe them. Believe them. Yes. Absolutely. And I spent
so much time trying to like validate or justify or if I could just explain it to them the right way.
Right. They'll get it or get me or see it and just learning sometimes just be like, no.
You just don't, and you don't deserve my time and energy for me to try to,
(38:26):
to try to unpack this for you. That's okay. And that's okay. Right. And not allowed for us. I know,
disappointing people like I put as a priority right now, like I'm, I'm going to disappoint you.
You complete sentence. Right. Yeah. They already is both kindness and harm reduction.
(38:46):
Exactly. So, so if you had the opportunity with where you're at now and at this point in your,
your journey and in kind of your recognition and you could go back and tell yourself something
about where you're at now versus where you were then. That's not your diagnosis that isn't,
you know, ADHD and, you know, complex trauma. What, what would you say to, to your younger self?
(39:12):
Yeah. I mean, this is such a great question. It's definitely one that I have.
The answer has evolved throughout like my growth. The biggest one is you are good.
You know, you are not broken. You are absolutely made the way that you were supposed to be. And
(39:37):
that, you know, trust yourself and love yourself. I think is the biggest thing.
And that like other people are never going to validate you the way that you could validate
yourself. And that was just big learning and no, it was okay. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.
Thank you. Thanks for asking me. It's been, it's definitely when you have little humans growing
(40:01):
up in front of you, it's trauma. It's trying to be noticed like, because, oh my gosh, how was I
like that? Or why does that frustrate me that my kid? Oh, it's because I was never allowed to do that.
Yeah. I remember having a conversation not that long ago with a friend of mine who
knew her daughter is six weeks younger than Iris. So we were, we were pregnant at the same time.
And she's like, I'm having all this stuff pull up from my childhood. And I'm like, yep. And she's
(40:29):
like, how do you know this is what I'm about to say? And I'm like, because like we're watching our
children at the ages that we were. And so when you hit the ages that you experience trauma with your
kids, your trauma is going to creep back up into your, into your mind. Like there, it's, it's,
and especially if it's unresolved and unabsolutely. And it is, it is a choice to be
(40:53):
and it's quite frankly a privilege to be aware and to have help to not continue the cycles
of it. Right. And it's also innately in our genetics in our bones. We carry the trauma of
our ancestors within us. Right. So we have to have this kindness to understand this
solution as an evolving human. And I think that is so important for us to have. So hopefully this is
(41:20):
helpful to share with people just, you know, you are good. You are you, man, you're going to make
mistakes. So what are you learning? And how are you? That sounds like a radical spark to me.
Yeah, you're so cool. Thank you so much for joining us. So would you like to let our listeners know
like where they can find you and yeah, I have my own website radicalsparkcoaching.com. I am, you
(41:47):
know, that's my website. I love speaking. I love sharing with people. I love being able to just
kind of connect. And, you know, the big reason I wanted to do this was just to kind of normalize
neuro-spiciness and how it is an invisible disability that so many of us just don't even put into that
(42:07):
confine of disability. Absolutely. And that it's okay to understand what you're great at and understand
that just what's not going to be your jam. Right. Yeah. And you don't have to be, I don't know,
part of my good girl training was having to be good at everything. Yeah. And like, you don't have
to be good at everything. It's okay to pick things that you like. And it's okay just to do the things
(42:28):
that you like to do. Yeah. And so like finding me, like I think eventually I'm going to be doing some
more stuff, auto like self self-guided stuff with my work. But right now I just, I love working with
organizations. I love working. I love speaking and I love coaching people. So I mean, go find me there.
But just my biggest thing is follow this podcast and all the words of Regina. You know, if you
(42:51):
ever want to have me back, feel free to have a chat. But this is fun to talk to someone else who gets
it. Yes. That was great. Thank you so much. Thank you.
A huge thank you to Jackie for sharing her story with us. Be sure to follow
Radical Spark coaching on Facebook or LinkedIn. Make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever
(43:16):
you listen, like and leave a review and share with your spicy brain friends or someone you know
who loves someone with a spicy brain. Follow us on Instagram at Divergent Paths Consulting,
No Spaces. And until next time, stay spicy.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Good Hang with Amy Poehler
Come hang with Amy Poehler. Each week on her podcast, she'll welcome celebrities and fun people to her studio. They'll share stories about their careers, mutual friends, shared enthusiasms, and most importantly, what's been making them laugh. This podcast is not about trying to make you better or giving advice. Amy just wants to have a good time.