September 28, 2025 • 23 mins
Listen as Raven Heyward, founder and host of DiversifyHER, converses with Dorothy G. Capers with us. She is the Chief Legal Officer and Corporate Secretary for C.H. Robinson, a global leader in logistics and transportation. She oversees a diverse legal team and reports directly to the CEO.
Before joining C.H. Robinson, Mrs.Capers earned her J.D. from Howard University School of Law and her B.A. from the University of Illinois. She held senior legal roles at Xylem, National Express, and US Foods, and she also served as a litigator in both government and the private sector. She’s published on corporate governance and enforcement policy, and she actively gives back through mentoring and board service.
Connect with Mrs.Capers:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dorothy-g-capers-6982361/
Email: Dorothy.Capers@chrobinson.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Hello everyone and welcome to Diversify Her
Podcast.
I'm your host, Raven Hayward,and today I'm honored to have
Miss Dorothy G.
Capers with us.
She is the chief legal officerand corporate secretary for C.H.
Robinson, a global leader inlogistics and transportation.
She oversees a divide diverselegal team and reports directly
(00:22):
to the CEO.
Before joining, she earned herJD from Howard University School
of Law and her BA from theUniversity of Illinois.
She held senior legal roles atXylem National Express and U.S.
Foods, and she also served as alitigator in both government and
the private sector.
She's published on corporategovernance and enforcement
policies, and she's activelygiving back through mentoring
(00:45):
and board service.
It's a pleasure to have you hereon the show today.
Thank you again for joining me.
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
I am good.
Thank you so much.
What a wonderful opening.
I appreciate it.
And I am just super proud ofwhat you're doing, Raven.
This is just wonderful.
So I'm very happy to be a guest.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Oh, thank you so much.
I'm really glad that we wereable to schedule this time so
that you could be featured onthe show.
And to get us started, I wouldlove for you to tell us just a
bit more background about yourjourney and what first inspired
you to want to pursue law.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
So, first inspiration is probably dating
back.
You probably don't even know whoI'm talking about when I say
Perry Mason, but Perry Masonback many, many years ago, was a
black and white TV show, like onlike before it was even, you
know, color TV, um, where healways led the like smoking gun
on someone in a crime.
(01:39):
And I used to watch it with mygrandmother on a constant basis.
It was one of her shows, and Iloved it.
And I used to think, oh my God,what's gonna happen?
And I used to get very excitedabout the end result, you know,
the dun dun dun, like what'sgonna happen.
And I love that.
Um, couple that with a familyfriend um and um who became a
(02:00):
mentor to me, Wiley Branton.
I watched as I grew up all thethings that he did from, you
know, before I was bornrepresenting Little Rock Nine,
but obviously heard about thatand all the civil rights work he
had done in the South, but alsoum just all of the things that
he did as a corporate lawyer.
And then he was the dean of theHoward Law School, and he sat on
(02:21):
a board of a publicly tradedcompany and just all these
things that he did, not only tohelp his community, like write
grassroots hands-on, but alsothe global way he showed up in
the world.
And so I just saw both of thosemen as like, wow, I really want
to do that.
And I always wanted to be alawyer from um any going back as
(02:44):
far as I can remember from highschool.
I was involved in legal,whatever it would be, debate and
other things in college.
I was a part of the MinorityAssociation for Future
Attorneys, and then I went toHoward.
So I just, you know, wassomebody who was always
interested.
And it took my career path uhdifferent ways.
I started in government, givingback to my community.
(03:05):
I felt like I was really in tunewith the community, and now in
the corporate world, I reallyfeel good about um how we can
advance companies, how we canmake sure that we're a voice and
be very authentic.
I'm a very authentic person inthe room, um, and making sure
that, you know, all views,diverse or otherwise, are
considered.
And so really happy to play apart now where I am uh at CH
(03:28):
Robinson.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Wow, I love that.
And you touched on a lot of whatI want to get into with this
episode with the authenticityand also giving back and even
just being a black womaninvolved in politics, especially
within today's climate of what'shappening in our world.
For some of my listeners andeven some friends that I have
that are now studying to taketheir LSATs and they're applying
(03:53):
for law school and figuring outwhere they want to go.
Um, I know you mentioned yourmentor having a lot of influence
and you wanting to ultimately goto Howard for your law school,
but what would you say, like inthese precedent times that we're
going through, what advice wouldyou give to young black girls
that are wanting to pursue lawschool on where they should go
(04:14):
and kind of how to make thatdecision, especially in the
climate of today's generation?
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
So I, you know, having done both, you know, uh
HBCU for law school andUniversity of Illinois, non-HBCU
for undergrad, I will tell youthat the experiences that I take
away and I re-recall and arejust fond and I, you know,
embrace them every day are myHoward Law School experiences.
(04:41):
From my colleagues in my classwho are doing amazing things
across the globe, to how we allshow up and pull together.
The one piece of advice I alwaysgive folks is go to a place
where you know someone sees you,is gonna help you, is gonna pull
you up.
You're just not a number ofanother student in the class,
but you are somebody that likewill look at you and say, I see
(05:04):
you, Miss Gibson, which is mymaiden name.
I see you, Miss Gibson, and Isee you struggling, or I see
that you may want to have alittle more question, or you
look quizzed, you know, you'reyou're you look like you're
confused on something.
Can I help?
Somebody who's gonna reallyengage.
And I like the smallness of whatHoward provided me in that
(05:24):
regard.
Not only were we all comingtogether to support each other,
nobody was leaving each otherbehind, but my instructors, all
the way up to the dean, werevery involved in the day-to-day
things that we did.
And they also really um kind ofembedded us with the knowledge
that we had a duty to leave outof that hollowed halls of power
(05:47):
to go help our world, our notjust our community, but as we
show up, how do we move thetrajectory of our world?
And I that just really stuckwith me.
And so I would tell a younggirl, now go somewhere where you
can really feel that.
It could be, you know, apredominantly white or
institution.
It doesn't have to be an HBCU,but go somewhere where you feel
(06:09):
like that's a comfort for you.
A, that someone sees you.
Um, B, I am telling everybodywho will listen that if you are
not trying to figure out how toembrace AI in a way that's off
the charts, you're gonna be leftbehind.
One of the big things that'scoming up now is that legal
departments are feeling theeffect of AI because a lot of
(06:32):
our routine things that we doall the time are very much
embedded in what could be takenoff our plates to make things
more simplistic.
However, you still need alawyer's brain and a lawyer's
thought processes around allthose things to keep things
moving.
So there's not, there'll alwaysbe a need for us, right?
But we have to show up in waysthat make our value add.
(06:53):
And so that's one area,cybersecurity.
I would look at all the cuttingedge types of issues that are
coming up and make sure you areembedded and wedded in them and
that you know what they are andhow to play them out.
Um, long are the days of I'mjust gonna go to law school and
become a litigator.
Okay, that's what I did, and itworked back then.
But I don't know that those sametype of things are gonna work
(07:16):
now.
We you all the things that aregoing on in our world from
government affairs to tariffs tointernational relations, all
those things are critical rightnow in any company, any area,
any any municipality, you nameit.
So get attuned to those topicsso that you can be a again, a
better value ad as you joinanyone's team.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
I think you made a lot of great points.
And basically from what I'mgathering, it's important to be
adaptable and flexible, but alsoalways, you know, continuously
learning because especially witha topic like law, things are
constantly changing.
There's new things happeningevery day.
And so across your career, Iknow you've held several
(07:59):
different leadership rolesacross different sectors and
industries.
So I'm curious to know whatlessons have you learned about
adapting your leadership styleacross all of these different
global organizations?
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
I think that first you need to learn the business.
Okay.
So adapting your leadershipstyle is a walking in, knowing
what you're leading on, right?
As a lawyer, that's oneplatform.
But as a C-suite executive whereI've been in the last three
roles, I'm asked to stand up andtalk about our overall
(08:34):
organizational, you know,revenue generation, strategy,
um, long-range planning, youknow, mergers and acquisitions,
not just the legal aspect ofthem, but is this a good
acquisition we should take on?
Is this help our value add?
Culture, how do we engage withour employees?
I'm asked to lean in on allthose topics, not just legal.
(08:56):
So I what I would say is whenI'm showing up in a leadership
way, A, I gotta know what'shappening in the business so I
can jump in.
And then I need to show up as myauthentic self, as I said
earlier.
I need to be the person in theroom who might scratch at an
edge a little more than someoneelse might because of the
experiences.
That might be the next persontomorrow because of their
(09:19):
experiences.
So I think showing up in thatauthentic way after you know
what you're talking about,again, because you know the
business.
I as soon as I join a company, Itry to get out of the building
and I try to go all around theglobe, wherever that is, to
learn all of our facilities,meet our people.
I'm like, hey, I always say,tell to me like a fifth grader.
(09:39):
Like, I've never learned thisbefore, tell it to me.
So I want to learn it and I wantto, you know, have it pour into
me so then I can pour backbecause I can't pour back what I
don't know, right?
So that really helps me show upas a leader in the best way I
can.
The last piece I'll say on thisis relationship is key.
Like you have to bring people inin order to get what you want
(10:01):
out of those people.
Um, they'll be more in tune withyou if you feel or make them
feel comfortable.
Everyone has something in commonwith somebody else, right?
We all have things we can tapinto.
We all, you know, as adults, wemay all have children, or we may
have kids in college, or I mightlike to cook, or I love to
(10:21):
travel, or hey, I knit, orwhatever it might be.
We all need to come together tofigure out what's that common
thread and then use that tobuild our relationships with
each other because I'm it'seasier for me to talk to you and
say, hey, here's a problem I'mseeing in the company.
How can we solve this togetherwhen we're on one accord versus
battling it out?
(10:42):
So my I walk in a place reallytrying to establish those
relationships.
I still have them all over fromevery job I've ever had.
I have people reach out to mefrom two or three jobs ago
asking me various things.
I do the same thing for peoplethat I've worked with.
I just gave a reference for somemoney two weeks two jobs ago
who's looking to move.
You know, those are things thatyou have to continue to pay
(11:03):
forward so that you can getthose returns back.
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
Right.
That's very important.
And I think throughout my wholelife, what my parents have
instilled in me, and even mymentors, as you know, your net
worth is your net work, and it'simportant to foster these
connections that you're making,but also like you keep
mentioning being authentic andbeing genuine because I feel
like a lot of the times peoplethey can kind of feel your
energy and they can tell whenyou're not being genuine.
(11:29):
And so with you having a role asa lawyer and being in, you know,
corporate America, I feel that alot of the times whenever you
think of careers like that,whether it's involved in
corporate or law, you know, youmay think that people might be
sharks or they may be snakes, orsometimes, you know, people can
feel not genuine or like they'retruly have your best intentions
(11:50):
at heart.
And so with you being a blackwoman and navigating these
spaces, how are you able to kindof know or trust your gut in
different situations?
And has there been a momentwhere you may have made the
wrong decision or you may havetrusted the wrong person?
And how did you navigate that?
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
Absolutely have been in that scenario.
I mean, I I've had situationswhere I had peers that we just
could not work togetheralongside.
There was always come some kindof animosity.
Again, I never lead with that.
It's just not who I am as aperson, but you have to again
get the other side back.
(12:30):
For me, I just show up as me.
Like I don't um, I don't sufferfools, to be honest.
I will uh essentially say, allright, obviously we've gotten
off on the wrong foot.
What can we do to get this backtogether?
And I always couch in the termsof the company.
I'll say things like, hey, youand me aside, in the best
(12:53):
interest of, for example, C.H.
Robinson, how should we attackthis problem?
And many times you can getpeople to go, okay, let me let
my shoulders down.
It's not about me, it's aboutthis that we work in, right?
Um, I I think that's that's acritical piece.
You come to work each day to doyour best for that job.
But at the end of the day, Ialso tell my team, this is just
one piece of your life.
(13:14):
It is not all of your life.
And your life is the cherrypieces of your family and being
with them and experiencing thethings that you experience,
traveling and seeing new thingsthat you've never done.
Uh, curious scientists, I alwayscall myself someone who's always
wanting to know the next stepand learn more.
That's what really like makespeople chill.
(13:36):
So when you're at that point,you just have to kind of figure
out how do we pull these thingstogether?
Sometimes they don't alwayswork.
And then you may need to find anally or someone that outside of
you can kind of help younavigate it.
I've called on many allies, manymentors, many, you know,
sponsors, people who've been inthe room who said my name.
(13:59):
I didn't even know they said myname.
But sometimes you just need yourextra support if you can't stab
at it.
Again, all in the interest ofhow do we move this thing
forward?
SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
Exactly.
So thank you for that answer.
I think you pretty much like hitthe nail on the head of exactly
what I was looking for andtrying to ask for.
And you mentioning support.
And so um, something that Ireally value is my family.
And of course, with whatevercareer that I feel like my
listeners may want to pursue,ultimately we do want to have
(14:32):
that work-life balance.
And so, with you being a motherand you um your youngest
daughter being one of my closestfriends, I'm curious to know how
have you been able to balancehaving such an amazing career,
but also that family balance aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (14:48):
So I'm gonna say something that it's probably not
gonna sound great, but I willsay everybody needs to brace
themselves for there.
Really is no balance.
Okay, really is no balance.
It it's always like this, right?
Like some days you're gonna lookat me, you would be, I'd join
your podcast and you'd be like,oh my God, look at her.
Like hair snatch back, whatever.
(15:09):
That's the day I way I show uptoday because I had to deal with
my kids this morning, or I hadto do the whatever it is.
There's balance and balance,there's balance and waves,
right?
There's days when you can comehome and go, ah, everything's
together.
In an hour, something else isgonna happen.
So I just feel like you justalways have to be mentally
prepared for the day, like theexperience.
(15:32):
I will say though, you have toask for help.
I didn't do that often in in myyounger years, when I had
younger children, I didn't askfor a lot of help.
I was literally the personbouncing all the plates and
juggling all.
And I finally have gotten in myolder age to a point where I
really do raise my hand and askfor help.
And I say, hey, you know what, Ican't do this, or I'm not gonna
(15:53):
be able to get that done, orthis is gonna show up this way.
It's also helpful, and you know,again, this is probably well
before many of you are doingthis, but it's helpful to have a
partner in some way to supportyou in that effort.
And I have been blessed andfortunate to have had that so
that if I can't do it, myhusband could do it.
If if I couldn't help this, mymom or dad were able to jump in.
(16:16):
My sister could jump in.
Like, I really rely and leanheavily on my village and not
just my immediate family, butI've helped friends.
Like, hey, your son needs, I seeyour son's still here.
You need to get him?
Good, I'll pick him up.
I'll feed him, bring, we'llbring him home later.
It's a pulling together ofpeople who are all in the same
space trying to move forward.
(16:36):
And you just still need to getcaught up in the day-to-day
drama of it because it's likeit's life, it's good.
Like it's it's a blessing thatwe have children.
They can go to school.
That, you know, I was my mystandard line these days is I
get to.
I get to go to work.
Like there's a lot of people whodon't get to go to work because
they may not have a job andthey're looking for jobs.
I get to go to work.
Some days I'm like, oh Lord, I'mgoing to work.
(16:59):
But it's like I get to go towork, right?
I get to have these beautiful,amazing daughters to raise.
Um, I get to have thesefriendships that I can rely on
and lean on to help me, and I'mgonna help them back.
So when you put yourself in thatmindset of I get to, you are in
a better spot than the dread of,oh my God, I can't believe this
(17:21):
is happening.
Oh my God, what's going on?
So um that's kind of how I'vetried to live it.
It didn't come easy.
That was not early, Dorothy, me.
That has been something that Ihave learned over the years.
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
And thank you for your transparency and honesty
with that, because I feel like alot of the times we have a
certain vision in mind of whatwe think our career or our
future is gonna be like.
And I really appreciate you, youknow, telling us the real and
saying, you know, some days it'snot all peaches and rainbows and
what you may expect it to be,but also, you know, I'm learning
(17:54):
to extend myself grace and evenwhat you said at the end there
with it's all about perspectiveand the way you look at it.
So I love the way that you said,like, I get to rather than I
have to.
I think that definitely doeschange your mindset.
And I know that we both are kindof on a time crunch right now,
so I want to be respectful ofour time and also um with the
(18:14):
episode.
And so I have a signaturequestion that I always ask um at
the end, which is what's onepiece of advice you would give
Gen Z to go out and diversifythemselves?
Whether that means broadeningtheir skills, expanding their
networks, embracing differentcultures and perspectives.
But what is one piece of advicethat you would give and you want
(18:35):
them to truly take from thisepisode?
SPEAKER_01 (18:37):
Okay, well, you just gave three great examples.
But if I were um to say this,there's one thing I always leave
um that someone once taught me,and I would say to them, make no
unnecessary enemies.
I think it sounds a littlecrazy, but it's true.
Like going back to my point of Iget to, and you have to embrace
(18:58):
things with a lot morepositivity.
I think that we sometimes, andespecially now in this climate,
people are angry and frustratedall the time.
From driving down the street andpeople road raging, I saw a man
like go off on someone in thecar for like just moving in
front of him and just had anabsolute meltdown.
(19:19):
And I was like, oh my God, youknow, what did I do?
I stopped and prayed for himbecause I was like, he's having
a bad day.
Everyone is on the edge ofsomething.
You know, our world, ourpolitics, our all those things
are impacting us greatly.
And you never know how that'sgonna show up.
So try not to make enemies justfor enemies' sake.
Remember that everyone's goingthrough something, and we are
(19:42):
all needing grace and empathyfor what we're going through,
right or wrong, right?
At the end of the day.
And I think if we can become,and I'm it's gonna sound crazy,
kinder to each other, we will bein a scenario where we can
actually feel like we're movingthe needle versus always feeling
like we're at a battle.
Um, it goes also to a point Imade earlier.
(20:04):
Relationships are critical tohow we show up in the world,
right?
I can't do anything without myrelationships.
If I can't get the support andthe help I need, I gotta build
those relationships and you haveto water them, fertilize them,
you do for them to grow.
They can't just be, I know her,I know I can call on her, I need
to give her what she's gonnagive me or him what he's gonna
(20:25):
give me, whatever it is.
So making those relationshipsand those critical, like I'm
just mad, so I'm gonna do this,and realize it's gonna show up
in a different way later, it'sjust not gonna be fruitful to
you.
So I just say, hey, let it rolloff your back, just keep on
moving.
Obviously, unless it's somethingthat's so in your face that you
(20:46):
can't ignore, I think peopleneed to give ourselves each
other a lot more grace than weare right now.
Um, culturally and every way,right?
Um, just from every aspect ofwhat we're doing.
It will take you far.
I have a great story about awoman who I used to work with
many, many years ago who wasjust very difficult to work
(21:07):
with, and nobody wanted to workwith her.
And I used to kill her withkindness and just try to go in
there and get things done.
And I will tell you, anothercolleague of mine just battled
it out with her, had it in, justwas like, I'm done.
And they were literally neverspeak to each other.
Fast forward two years, thatwoman who was very difficult to
work with became that otherwoman's boss.
(21:29):
Fluky because of the way inwhich the organization I was in
just kind of promoted people.
So all of a sudden, this womanthat she probably could have
figured out a way to get alongwith that she didn't became a
manager of hers and just madeher life even more of a living
hell.
And I was kind of like, that wasprobably an unnecessary enemy,
right?
You didn't need to make her anenemy.
(21:50):
You could have figured out a waybecause things do come back and
loop back.
So just think about that asyou're moving forward.
Don't be so hasty and so quickto act.
But otherwise, just think aboutit for a minute, take it in, and
just you know, figure outwhether it's gonna make or break
your day.
If it's not, then keep itmoving, right?
Um, because at some point younever know how it may show back
(22:12):
up for you.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Yeah, I think that's a great mindset to have.
And, you know, killing withkindness, as my mom always says.
So thank you so much.
I think you gave such greatadvice.
And I'm sure if anyone has anyfollow-up questions or maybe
wants to connect with you, I'llhave your contact information in
the bio below.
Again, thank you so much fortaking the time out of your day
(22:33):
to come on the show.
I'm so excited to keep seeingthe amazing things that you do.
And thank you everyone to listento.
This is awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
I just want to say to all your listeners that I'm
super, super proud of you.
And then as you all go forth,just having this kind of a
platform where you can hear morefrom other people and different
perspectives is just an amazingthing.
So, kudos to you for creatingthis opportunity.
Thank you.
Um, for me and for others toshare, and I'm more than happy
to open myself up to anyone'squestions.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Love thank you so much.
Thank you, because that's reallywhat this is all about just
creating a safe space for moreintensive stories to be shared.
So I really appreciate it.
Thank you all for listening, andI'll catch you next time on
Diversify Heart.
Hello everyone and welcome to Diversify Her
Podcast.
I'm your host, Raven Hayward,and today I'm honored to have
Miss Dorothy G.
Capers with us.
She is the chief legal officerand corporate secretary for C.H.
Robinson, a global leader inlogistics and transportation.
She oversees a divide diverselegal team and reports directly
(00:22):
to the CEO.
Before joining, she earned herJD from Howard University School
of Law and her BA from theUniversity of Illinois.
She held senior legal roles atXylem National Express and U.S.
Foods, and she also served as alitigator in both government and
the private sector.
She's published on corporategovernance and enforcement
policies, and she's activelygiving back through mentoring
(00:45):
and board service.
It's a pleasure to have you hereon the show today.
Thank you again for joining me.
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
I am good.
Thank you so much.
What a wonderful opening.
I appreciate it.
And I am just super proud ofwhat you're doing, Raven.
This is just wonderful.
So I'm very happy to be a guest.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Oh, thank you so much.
I'm really glad that we wereable to schedule this time so
that you could be featured onthe show.
And to get us started, I wouldlove for you to tell us just a
bit more background about yourjourney and what first inspired
you to want to pursue law.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
So, first inspiration is probably dating
back.
You probably don't even know whoI'm talking about when I say
Perry Mason, but Perry Masonback many, many years ago, was a
black and white TV show, like onlike before it was even, you
know, color TV, um, where healways led the like smoking gun
on someone in a crime.
(01:39):
And I used to watch it with mygrandmother on a constant basis.
It was one of her shows, and Iloved it.
And I used to think, oh my God,what's gonna happen?
And I used to get very excitedabout the end result, you know,
the dun dun dun, like what'sgonna happen.
And I love that.
Um, couple that with a familyfriend um and um who became a
(02:00):
mentor to me, Wiley Branton.
I watched as I grew up all thethings that he did from, you
know, before I was bornrepresenting Little Rock Nine,
but obviously heard about thatand all the civil rights work he
had done in the South, but alsoum just all of the things that
he did as a corporate lawyer.
And then he was the dean of theHoward Law School, and he sat on
(02:21):
a board of a publicly tradedcompany and just all these
things that he did, not only tohelp his community, like write
grassroots hands-on, but alsothe global way he showed up in
the world.
And so I just saw both of thosemen as like, wow, I really want
to do that.
And I always wanted to be alawyer from um any going back as
(02:44):
far as I can remember from highschool.
I was involved in legal,whatever it would be, debate and
other things in college.
I was a part of the MinorityAssociation for Future
Attorneys, and then I went toHoward.
So I just, you know, wassomebody who was always
interested.
And it took my career path uhdifferent ways.
I started in government, givingback to my community.
(03:05):
I felt like I was really in tunewith the community, and now in
the corporate world, I reallyfeel good about um how we can
advance companies, how we canmake sure that we're a voice and
be very authentic.
I'm a very authentic person inthe room, um, and making sure
that, you know, all views,diverse or otherwise, are
considered.
And so really happy to play apart now where I am uh at CH
(03:28):
Robinson.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Wow, I love that.
And you touched on a lot of whatI want to get into with this
episode with the authenticityand also giving back and even
just being a black womaninvolved in politics, especially
within today's climate of what'shappening in our world.
For some of my listeners andeven some friends that I have
that are now studying to taketheir LSATs and they're applying
(03:53):
for law school and figuring outwhere they want to go.
Um, I know you mentioned yourmentor having a lot of influence
and you wanting to ultimately goto Howard for your law school,
but what would you say, like inthese precedent times that we're
going through, what advice wouldyou give to young black girls
that are wanting to pursue lawschool on where they should go
(04:14):
and kind of how to make thatdecision, especially in the
climate of today's generation?
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
So I, you know, having done both, you know, uh
HBCU for law school andUniversity of Illinois, non-HBCU
for undergrad, I will tell youthat the experiences that I take
away and I re-recall and arejust fond and I, you know,
embrace them every day are myHoward Law School experiences.
(04:41):
From my colleagues in my classwho are doing amazing things
across the globe, to how we allshow up and pull together.
The one piece of advice I alwaysgive folks is go to a place
where you know someone sees you,is gonna help you, is gonna pull
you up.
You're just not a number ofanother student in the class,
but you are somebody that likewill look at you and say, I see
(05:04):
you, Miss Gibson, which is mymaiden name.
I see you, Miss Gibson, and Isee you struggling, or I see
that you may want to have alittle more question, or you
look quizzed, you know, you'reyou're you look like you're
confused on something.
Can I help?
Somebody who's gonna reallyengage.
And I like the smallness of whatHoward provided me in that
(05:24):
regard.
Not only were we all comingtogether to support each other,
nobody was leaving each otherbehind, but my instructors, all
the way up to the dean, werevery involved in the day-to-day
things that we did.
And they also really um kind ofembedded us with the knowledge
that we had a duty to leave outof that hollowed halls of power
(05:47):
to go help our world, our notjust our community, but as we
show up, how do we move thetrajectory of our world?
And I that just really stuckwith me.
And so I would tell a younggirl, now go somewhere where you
can really feel that.
It could be, you know, apredominantly white or
institution.
It doesn't have to be an HBCU,but go somewhere where you feel
(06:09):
like that's a comfort for you.
A, that someone sees you.
Um, B, I am telling everybodywho will listen that if you are
not trying to figure out how toembrace AI in a way that's off
the charts, you're gonna be leftbehind.
One of the big things that'scoming up now is that legal
departments are feeling theeffect of AI because a lot of
(06:32):
our routine things that we doall the time are very much
embedded in what could be takenoff our plates to make things
more simplistic.
However, you still need alawyer's brain and a lawyer's
thought processes around allthose things to keep things
moving.
So there's not, there'll alwaysbe a need for us, right?
But we have to show up in waysthat make our value add.
(06:53):
And so that's one area,cybersecurity.
I would look at all the cuttingedge types of issues that are
coming up and make sure you areembedded and wedded in them and
that you know what they are andhow to play them out.
Um, long are the days of I'mjust gonna go to law school and
become a litigator.
Okay, that's what I did, and itworked back then.
But I don't know that those sametype of things are gonna work
(07:16):
now.
We you all the things that aregoing on in our world from
government affairs to tariffs tointernational relations, all
those things are critical rightnow in any company, any area,
any any municipality, you nameit.
So get attuned to those topicsso that you can be a again, a
better value ad as you joinanyone's team.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
I think you made a lot of great points.
And basically from what I'mgathering, it's important to be
adaptable and flexible, but alsoalways, you know, continuously
learning because especially witha topic like law, things are
constantly changing.
There's new things happeningevery day.
And so across your career, Iknow you've held several
(07:59):
different leadership rolesacross different sectors and
industries.
So I'm curious to know whatlessons have you learned about
adapting your leadership styleacross all of these different
global organizations?
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
I think that first you need to learn the business.
Okay.
So adapting your leadershipstyle is a walking in, knowing
what you're leading on, right?
As a lawyer, that's oneplatform.
But as a C-suite executive whereI've been in the last three
roles, I'm asked to stand up andtalk about our overall
(08:34):
organizational, you know,revenue generation, strategy,
um, long-range planning, youknow, mergers and acquisitions,
not just the legal aspect ofthem, but is this a good
acquisition we should take on?
Is this help our value add?
Culture, how do we engage withour employees?
I'm asked to lean in on allthose topics, not just legal.
(08:56):
So I what I would say is whenI'm showing up in a leadership
way, A, I gotta know what'shappening in the business so I
can jump in.
And then I need to show up as myauthentic self, as I said
earlier.
I need to be the person in theroom who might scratch at an
edge a little more than someoneelse might because of the
experiences.
That might be the next persontomorrow because of their
(09:19):
experiences.
So I think showing up in thatauthentic way after you know
what you're talking about,again, because you know the
business.
I as soon as I join a company, Itry to get out of the building
and I try to go all around theglobe, wherever that is, to
learn all of our facilities,meet our people.
I'm like, hey, I always say,tell to me like a fifth grader.
(09:39):
Like, I've never learned thisbefore, tell it to me.
So I want to learn it and I wantto, you know, have it pour into
me so then I can pour backbecause I can't pour back what I
don't know, right?
So that really helps me show upas a leader in the best way I
can.
The last piece I'll say on thisis relationship is key.
Like you have to bring people inin order to get what you want
(10:01):
out of those people.
Um, they'll be more in tune withyou if you feel or make them
feel comfortable.
Everyone has something in commonwith somebody else, right?
We all have things we can tapinto.
We all, you know, as adults, wemay all have children, or we may
have kids in college, or I mightlike to cook, or I love to
(10:21):
travel, or hey, I knit, orwhatever it might be.
We all need to come together tofigure out what's that common
thread and then use that tobuild our relationships with
each other because I'm it'seasier for me to talk to you and
say, hey, here's a problem I'mseeing in the company.
How can we solve this togetherwhen we're on one accord versus
battling it out?
(10:42):
So my I walk in a place reallytrying to establish those
relationships.
I still have them all over fromevery job I've ever had.
I have people reach out to mefrom two or three jobs ago
asking me various things.
I do the same thing for peoplethat I've worked with.
I just gave a reference for somemoney two weeks two jobs ago
who's looking to move.
You know, those are things thatyou have to continue to pay
(11:03):
forward so that you can getthose returns back.
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
Right.
That's very important.
And I think throughout my wholelife, what my parents have
instilled in me, and even mymentors, as you know, your net
worth is your net work, and it'simportant to foster these
connections that you're making,but also like you keep
mentioning being authentic andbeing genuine because I feel
like a lot of the times peoplethey can kind of feel your
energy and they can tell whenyou're not being genuine.
(11:29):
And so with you having a role asa lawyer and being in, you know,
corporate America, I feel that alot of the times whenever you
think of careers like that,whether it's involved in
corporate or law, you know, youmay think that people might be
sharks or they may be snakes, orsometimes, you know, people can
feel not genuine or like they'retruly have your best intentions
(11:50):
at heart.
And so with you being a blackwoman and navigating these
spaces, how are you able to kindof know or trust your gut in
different situations?
And has there been a momentwhere you may have made the
wrong decision or you may havetrusted the wrong person?
And how did you navigate that?
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
Absolutely have been in that scenario.
I mean, I I've had situationswhere I had peers that we just
could not work togetheralongside.
There was always come some kindof animosity.
Again, I never lead with that.
It's just not who I am as aperson, but you have to again
get the other side back.
(12:30):
For me, I just show up as me.
Like I don't um, I don't sufferfools, to be honest.
I will uh essentially say, allright, obviously we've gotten
off on the wrong foot.
What can we do to get this backtogether?
And I always couch in the termsof the company.
I'll say things like, hey, youand me aside, in the best
(12:53):
interest of, for example, C.H.
Robinson, how should we attackthis problem?
And many times you can getpeople to go, okay, let me let
my shoulders down.
It's not about me, it's aboutthis that we work in, right?
Um, I I think that's that's acritical piece.
You come to work each day to doyour best for that job.
But at the end of the day, Ialso tell my team, this is just
one piece of your life.
(13:14):
It is not all of your life.
And your life is the cherrypieces of your family and being
with them and experiencing thethings that you experience,
traveling and seeing new thingsthat you've never done.
Uh, curious scientists, I alwayscall myself someone who's always
wanting to know the next stepand learn more.
That's what really like makespeople chill.
(13:36):
So when you're at that point,you just have to kind of figure
out how do we pull these thingstogether?
Sometimes they don't alwayswork.
And then you may need to find anally or someone that outside of
you can kind of help younavigate it.
I've called on many allies, manymentors, many, you know,
sponsors, people who've been inthe room who said my name.
(13:59):
I didn't even know they said myname.
But sometimes you just need yourextra support if you can't stab
at it.
Again, all in the interest ofhow do we move this thing
forward?
SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
Exactly.
So thank you for that answer.
I think you pretty much like hitthe nail on the head of exactly
what I was looking for andtrying to ask for.
And you mentioning support.
And so um, something that Ireally value is my family.
And of course, with whatevercareer that I feel like my
listeners may want to pursue,ultimately we do want to have
(14:32):
that work-life balance.
And so, with you being a motherand you um your youngest
daughter being one of my closestfriends, I'm curious to know how
have you been able to balancehaving such an amazing career,
but also that family balance aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (14:48):
So I'm gonna say something that it's probably not
gonna sound great, but I willsay everybody needs to brace
themselves for there.
Really is no balance.
Okay, really is no balance.
It it's always like this, right?
Like some days you're gonna lookat me, you would be, I'd join
your podcast and you'd be like,oh my God, look at her.
Like hair snatch back, whatever.
(15:09):
That's the day I way I show uptoday because I had to deal with
my kids this morning, or I hadto do the whatever it is.
There's balance and balance,there's balance and waves,
right?
There's days when you can comehome and go, ah, everything's
together.
In an hour, something else isgonna happen.
So I just feel like you justalways have to be mentally
prepared for the day, like theexperience.
(15:32):
I will say though, you have toask for help.
I didn't do that often in in myyounger years, when I had
younger children, I didn't askfor a lot of help.
I was literally the personbouncing all the plates and
juggling all.
And I finally have gotten in myolder age to a point where I
really do raise my hand and askfor help.
And I say, hey, you know what, Ican't do this, or I'm not gonna
(15:53):
be able to get that done, orthis is gonna show up this way.
It's also helpful, and you know,again, this is probably well
before many of you are doingthis, but it's helpful to have a
partner in some way to supportyou in that effort.
And I have been blessed andfortunate to have had that so
that if I can't do it, myhusband could do it.
If if I couldn't help this, mymom or dad were able to jump in.
(16:16):
My sister could jump in.
Like, I really rely and leanheavily on my village and not
just my immediate family, butI've helped friends.
Like, hey, your son needs, I seeyour son's still here.
You need to get him?
Good, I'll pick him up.
I'll feed him, bring, we'llbring him home later.
It's a pulling together ofpeople who are all in the same
space trying to move forward.
(16:36):
And you just still need to getcaught up in the day-to-day
drama of it because it's likeit's life, it's good.
Like it's it's a blessing thatwe have children.
They can go to school.
That, you know, I was my mystandard line these days is I
get to.
I get to go to work.
Like there's a lot of people whodon't get to go to work because
they may not have a job andthey're looking for jobs.
I get to go to work.
Some days I'm like, oh Lord, I'mgoing to work.
(16:59):
But it's like I get to go towork, right?
I get to have these beautiful,amazing daughters to raise.
Um, I get to have thesefriendships that I can rely on
and lean on to help me, and I'mgonna help them back.
So when you put yourself in thatmindset of I get to, you are in
a better spot than the dread of,oh my God, I can't believe this
(17:21):
is happening.
Oh my God, what's going on?
So um that's kind of how I'vetried to live it.
It didn't come easy.
That was not early, Dorothy, me.
That has been something that Ihave learned over the years.
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
And thank you for your transparency and honesty
with that, because I feel like alot of the times we have a
certain vision in mind of whatwe think our career or our
future is gonna be like.
And I really appreciate you, youknow, telling us the real and
saying, you know, some days it'snot all peaches and rainbows and
what you may expect it to be,but also, you know, I'm learning
(17:54):
to extend myself grace and evenwhat you said at the end there
with it's all about perspectiveand the way you look at it.
So I love the way that you said,like, I get to rather than I
have to.
I think that definitely doeschange your mindset.
And I know that we both are kindof on a time crunch right now,
so I want to be respectful ofour time and also um with the
(18:14):
episode.
And so I have a signaturequestion that I always ask um at
the end, which is what's onepiece of advice you would give
Gen Z to go out and diversifythemselves?
Whether that means broadeningtheir skills, expanding their
networks, embracing differentcultures and perspectives.
But what is one piece of advicethat you would give and you want
(18:35):
them to truly take from thisepisode?
SPEAKER_01 (18:37):
Okay, well, you just gave three great examples.
But if I were um to say this,there's one thing I always leave
um that someone once taught me,and I would say to them, make no
unnecessary enemies.
I think it sounds a littlecrazy, but it's true.
Like going back to my point of Iget to, and you have to embrace
(18:58):
things with a lot morepositivity.
I think that we sometimes, andespecially now in this climate,
people are angry and frustratedall the time.
From driving down the street andpeople road raging, I saw a man
like go off on someone in thecar for like just moving in
front of him and just had anabsolute meltdown.
(19:19):
And I was like, oh my God, youknow, what did I do?
I stopped and prayed for himbecause I was like, he's having
a bad day.
Everyone is on the edge ofsomething.
You know, our world, ourpolitics, our all those things
are impacting us greatly.
And you never know how that'sgonna show up.
So try not to make enemies justfor enemies' sake.
Remember that everyone's goingthrough something, and we are
(19:42):
all needing grace and empathyfor what we're going through,
right or wrong, right?
At the end of the day.
And I think if we can become,and I'm it's gonna sound crazy,
kinder to each other, we will bein a scenario where we can
actually feel like we're movingthe needle versus always feeling
like we're at a battle.
Um, it goes also to a point Imade earlier.
(20:04):
Relationships are critical tohow we show up in the world,
right?
I can't do anything without myrelationships.
If I can't get the support andthe help I need, I gotta build
those relationships and you haveto water them, fertilize them,
you do for them to grow.
They can't just be, I know her,I know I can call on her, I need
to give her what she's gonnagive me or him what he's gonna
(20:25):
give me, whatever it is.
So making those relationshipsand those critical, like I'm
just mad, so I'm gonna do this,and realize it's gonna show up
in a different way later, it'sjust not gonna be fruitful to
you.
So I just say, hey, let it rolloff your back, just keep on
moving.
Obviously, unless it's somethingthat's so in your face that you
(20:46):
can't ignore, I think peopleneed to give ourselves each
other a lot more grace than weare right now.
Um, culturally and every way,right?
Um, just from every aspect ofwhat we're doing.
It will take you far.
I have a great story about awoman who I used to work with
many, many years ago who wasjust very difficult to work
(21:07):
with, and nobody wanted to workwith her.
And I used to kill her withkindness and just try to go in
there and get things done.
And I will tell you, anothercolleague of mine just battled
it out with her, had it in, justwas like, I'm done.
And they were literally neverspeak to each other.
Fast forward two years, thatwoman who was very difficult to
work with became that otherwoman's boss.
(21:29):
Fluky because of the way inwhich the organization I was in
just kind of promoted people.
So all of a sudden, this womanthat she probably could have
figured out a way to get alongwith that she didn't became a
manager of hers and just madeher life even more of a living
hell.
And I was kind of like, that wasprobably an unnecessary enemy,
right?
You didn't need to make her anenemy.
(21:50):
You could have figured out a waybecause things do come back and
loop back.
So just think about that asyou're moving forward.
Don't be so hasty and so quickto act.
But otherwise, just think aboutit for a minute, take it in, and
just you know, figure outwhether it's gonna make or break
your day.
If it's not, then keep itmoving, right?
Um, because at some point younever know how it may show back
(22:12):
up for you.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Yeah, I think that's a great mindset to have.
And, you know, killing withkindness, as my mom always says.
So thank you so much.
I think you gave such greatadvice.
And I'm sure if anyone has anyfollow-up questions or maybe
wants to connect with you, I'llhave your contact information in
the bio below.
Again, thank you so much fortaking the time out of your day
(22:33):
to come on the show.
I'm so excited to keep seeingthe amazing things that you do.
And thank you everyone to listento.
This is awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
I just want to say to all your listeners that I'm
super, super proud of you.
And then as you all go forth,just having this kind of a
platform where you can hear morefrom other people and different
perspectives is just an amazingthing.
So, kudos to you for creatingthis opportunity.
Thank you.
Um, for me and for others toshare, and I'm more than happy
to open myself up to anyone'squestions.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Love thank you so much.
Thank you, because that's reallywhat this is all about just
creating a safe space for moreintensive stories to be shared.
So I really appreciate it.
Thank you all for listening, andI'll catch you next time on
Diversify Heart.
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