June 24, 2025 • 29 mins
Facing family court without an attorney can feel like entering a foreign country without speaking the language. In this illuminating conversation, former family law attorney Tracey Bee reveals how she transformed her 25-year legal career into a mission helping self-represented litigants navigate the complex world of divorce and family court proceedings.
Whether you're considering self-representation by choice or necessity, this episode provides invaluable insights into navigating the system effectively. Tracey offers a refreshing perspective that acknowledges both the challenges and possibilities of representing yourself, while emphasizing that selective professional guidance can make all the difference in your journey through family court.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to learn more.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
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Episode Transcript
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Tracey Bee (00:00):
But in that time, no matter what area of law I was
in, I always worked with peoplewho were not in the position,
who didn't have the resources tohire me full out.
Especially when I went intoprivate practice as a family law
attorney, a lot of people cameto me and they didn't have the
$5,000 or the $10,000 theyneeded to retain me.
So it was always in the back ofmy mind that I would do
(00:21):
something, create some sort ofresource or some sort of
something that would help them.
Intro/Close (00:29):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, Cary Jacobson brings
you real stories, hard truthsand practical advice on
navigating divorce and familylaw.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:51):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, the podcast where wedive deep into the complex world
of divorce, co-parenting andeverything in between, giving
you the tools to navigate life'stoughest transitions with more
confidence and less chaos.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,and today we're discussing the
topic that has becomeincreasingly relevant what
(01:15):
happens when you have to, orchoose to, represent yourself in
family court.
Joining me today is Tracey Bee,a former family law attorney
with over 25 years of legalexperience, who now dedicates
her work to empoweringself-represented individuals.
Tracey helps people navigatethe often overwhelming family
(01:37):
court system by providingguidance and insight they need
to move forward effectively evenwithout an attorney.
Tracey, thank you so much forbeing on Divorce Diaries.
Tracey Bee (01:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
Cary Jacobson (01:51):
Absolutely.
I'd love for you to share withour listeners how you got
started from being an attorneywith over two decades of
experience and what reallyinspired you to shift your focus
from that traditionalrepresentation and now helping
people represent themselves.
Tracey Bee (02:13):
Sure, sure.
Well, it started where Iactually my first profession was
in mental health, and mydecision to go to law school was
a fluke.
It was something decided at thevery last minute.
So it wasn't my lifelong dreamto be an attorney.
But, honestly, I actually windup being well suited for it
(02:34):
because it gave me the position,it gave me the authority to
build on a lot of skills that Ineeded to help the exact same
population I was helping, whichis the underserved, the
marginalized, the ones that areoften neglected.
So when I did go to law school,I actually wind up doing a lot
of criminal.
I did some landlord tenant, Idid some abuse, neglect, and a
(02:59):
lot of it was family law.
But in that time, no matter whatarea of law I was in, I always
worked with people who were notin the position, who didn't have
the resources to hire me fullout.
Especially when I went intoprivate practice as a family law
attorney, a lot of people cameto me and they didn't have the
5,000 or the 10,000 they neededto retain me.
(03:20):
So it was always in the back ofmy mind that I would do
something, create some sort ofresource or some sort of
something that would help them,and so I took a step back from
practicing altogether a fewyears ago to raise my son, and
at the same time, I had a lot oflosses.
I had to deal with those thingsand, as a culmination of all of
those, I decided thatpracticing wasn't my thing
(03:43):
anymore.
It didn't serve me from a soullevel, and since this was always
in the making to help thepeople that I'm serving right
now, I just decided why not?
What better time than now?
And so I've been doing it forthe past five years, actually
solely working on yes, workingwith the pro se, the
(04:04):
self-represented solely workingon, yes, working with the pro se
, the self-represented.
Cary Jacobson (04:13):
Okay, I often find, you know, there is such a
need for people who don't havethe means to hire an attorney
for full representation, butthey don't, you know, have the
knowledge to really go at itthemselves, and so it's finding
that in between, whether asource like yourself or a
self-help clinic, maybe at theircourthouse or what have you so
there's definitely a need forthe representation that you
(04:37):
provide.
Obviously, it can be sodaunting.
What are some of the biggestchallenges that you see
self-represented litigants facewhen they're going into court
for the first time?
Tracey Bee (04:53):
A lot of people, a lot of people, and I actually
had to shift last year becausewhat I realized with a lot of
self-representatives even thoughthe information is out there
it's 2025, there's informationeverywhere they don't know how
to use it, they don't know whatto make of it, they don't know
how to apply it, and so a lot ofpeople think that they can just
(05:15):
go and get information andthey're going to wing it or
they're going to figure it out,and a lot of them wind up making
the biggest mistakes, notbecause they don't know the law
or because they don't understandthe process, because they're
getting information and theydon't know what to do with it.
They don't know how to analyzeit, apply it, assess it.
They don't know how to do that,and so that's why I spend a lot
(05:36):
of time.
Making people aware of gettinginformation is absolutely
necessary.
You have to know, but you alsohave to know how to use
discernment when you get thatinformation.
You need to know how to usethose critical thinking skills
to determine which of thatinformation is reliable, what is
accurate and how to use itproperly, and so that's a big,
(06:00):
big challenge for pro selitigants.
Cary Jacobson (06:03):
Okay, I'm curious do you work with pro se
litigants in a particularjurisdiction, in a geographical
area?
You know one particular state,or do you work with them all
across the United States?
Tracey Bee (06:17):
I work with them all across the United States.
I make sure they're aware ofwhat I can and cannot do and,
you know, a lot of times thoselines get really, really thin.
But I'm also I'm always awareof you know, when I'm getting
close to that line.
I have a mentor now that Iactually confer with.
He's a retired attorney whokind of keeps me in check to
(06:37):
remind me of you know, hey, youshouldn't be doing these things,
or you know.
But you know what the realityis.
There's a lot of divorceprofessionals out there who are
crossing those lines every dayand it's only because of my
ethical obligation Am I aware.
But a lot of those are divorcecoaches, et cetera.
They're they're giving legaladvice across the country and
(06:59):
I'm so I they remind me that Ican't do that, that it's not
responsible for me to do that,but yes, I work with people all
over the country.
Cary Jacobson (07:07):
Okay, when someone chooses to go pro se,
either because they have to orbecause that's something that
they choose and want to do,where do they begin?
What is the very first step inthat process?
Tracey Bee (07:23):
Their family court website.
If they have it broken down bycounty, go to the county first
and then go to their state.
You have to know what yourjurisdiction, how they operate,
how their layout is, whatresources they have, what you
can do to help yourself.
You have to start there.
It'll take, take you a fewminutes an hour, whatever, but
(07:46):
that is your starting point youneed to know.
You're not going to know familylegal terminology.
You're not going to know whatthe resources.
You're not going to even knowwhat the process is, and a lot
of pro-state litigants have agazillion questions and
rightfully so, but a lot ofthose answers are right there on
their court's website and I, atat least here in Maryland I
(08:08):
find that the courts generallydo a pretty good job of
providing information.
Cary Jacobson (08:14):
You know, we at least have a pretty good series
of videos and forms andinstructions on how to complete
the forms.
So I do think a lot of answerscan be found on the court
website.
Tracey Bee (08:28):
Yes, maryland happens to be.
I've studied every single statewebsite.
Maryland happens to be one ofthe great ones.
Maryland has a lot of resources.
They have a huge database ofinformation on their website.
So, yes, I agree.
Cary Jacobson (08:45):
But, like you said, every court's going to be
different, every county is goingto be different, so you know
there are nuances to eachlocation.
Tracey Bee (08:59):
So it definitely makes sense that that should be
the first place people lookAbsolutely, absolutely,
absolutely.
Cary Jacobson (09:02):
What are some of the most common mistakes you see
self-represented individualsmake, and how would you
recommend that they avoid them?
Tracey Bee (09:12):
Oh, I don't know why it triggers me so much, but
when pro se litigants asknon-lawyers for legal advice,
that drives me crazy.
And they take it.
They actually take it, and I'mlike, oh my God.
And then they'll come backweeks or months later and say,
oh, the judge was this, oh, thelawyer was this.
No, it was you.
You were taking legal advicefrom people who are not
(09:35):
qualified to give you that, andnot only did you listen, you
actually implement it.
You took action based on thatinformation.
That is wrong.
That's a simple step to avoid.
That is going to make a hugedifference in your case.
Don't do that.
If you don't have the resourcesto hire an attorney just for a
(09:56):
consultation, please wait untilyou get that, because I tell pro
se litigants you don't have to,because a lot of people are
choosing to be pro se.
Let me just say that.
But I also remind them that atsome point, even though you're
choosing to self-represent, youstill can work with attorneys in
different capacities.
They're limited scope.
You can get consultationsperiodically.
(10:17):
I always encourage pro selitigants to do that.
Even when I'm working with them, I can't give you legal advice,
so, hey, get a consultation andcome back to me, but it's
imperative that you get at leasttwo consultations from
attorneys and stop listening tonon-lawyers tell you what you
should and should not do in yourcase.
Cary Jacobson (10:40):
Yeah, I see it all the time People posting in
Facebook groups asking forinformation and every single
time there is misinformation.
Single time there ismisinformation.
And you're right like take thetime, take the resources to
gather as much information froma professional who's been
trained in this, instead ofasking people you know.
It's fine to ask people forrecommendations and referrals or
(11:02):
people who've had, you know,certain experience, but not
necessarily for advice on how todo something, Exactly, Exactly.
Tracey Bee (11:10):
It got so bad.
I created a document that saidthat that's the title.
What you think is legal adviceor non-legal advice is and these
are examples because I want youto know and it's not just for
the pro se, I'm sorry, it's forthe divorce coaches too that are
out there giving legal advicewhen they should not be.
I know they mean well, but theyshould not.
They should not be crossingthat line because they're not
(11:31):
doing their clients a service.
When they do that, they'redoing them a disservice.
So, yeah, I created a documentbecause it was.
I don't know why that's mytrigger, Carrie, but it is.
Cary Jacobson (11:40):
Because we're still ethical professionals and
we want to make sure that youknow the people that we serve
are getting the correctinformation and they're using
that correctly.
Tracey Bee (11:52):
Yes, absolutely.
Cary Jacobson (11:54):
So, even though you're not offering legal advice
in the traditional sense, butrather education and support,
what does that typically looklike from a day-to-day
perspective when you're workingwith a client?
Tracey Bee (12:05):
So there's this thing that I created called this
concept, called the legal void.
The legal void is the thingsthat I remember when I was
practicing, the things that Ididn't want my clients asking me
, and so that's what I focus on.
So when they're trying tounderstand, hey, when it's a
question about the process, forinstance, and you know, hey, I
(12:27):
need to know the judge issued anorder in court.
I need to know exactly how longit's going to take for that
order to come.
And then what's the processwhen that order gets here, Does
my lawyer do I mean, does theother party's lawyer do it?
Do I do that?
Do I get a chance to issue myown?
So things like that.
Those are the kind of legalvoid questions where you know,
(12:48):
once I was done, I don't wantanother phone call or several
emails asking me these questions.
So I actually sort of fill thatoverlap.
So a lot of my information andresources are really strategic.
It's really it's to encouragepeople to think on their own, to
ask the question and to seekthe answers from reliable
(13:08):
sources.
That's my underlying theme.
Is everything that happens.
You should know exactly what'sgoing on, why and what the
process is, and so a lot of whatI explained to them is exactly
that it's not saying, hey, thisis what your judge is ruling on,
and this is why it's saying,hey, the process is, he's ruled
on it.
Now, this is what you need todo and need to be mindful of.
Cary Jacobson (13:31):
Right, these are the next steps.
This is how long you have topotentially appeal or or
anything along those lines.
Tracey Bee (13:38):
Yes, exactly, it's a lot about the process.
It's a lot about explaining theprocess to them the family
court process.
Cary Jacobson (13:45):
Got it and I'm sure, if you're working with
people all across the nation,that process is drastically
different from one court to thenext.
Tracey Bee (13:53):
Yes, that's why I have a team of paralegals who
are very good at researching.
Virtual assistants willactually go in.
I have connections, you know.
I establish partnerships withdifferent people where, if we
don't know that county, we havesomebody to contact, or my
paralegals will actually do theresearch or reach out to
somebody in the county to findout exactly what the process is,
(14:13):
so that when we explain itwe're correct.
In that.
Cary Jacobson (14:17):
Got it.
Do you ever recommendalternative dispute resolution
processes, such as mediation orsettlement negotiations for
those folks who are you areworking with?
Tracey Bee (14:30):
Absolutely.
I've noticed.
Oh, I used to think I was sucha goddess since my chain here.
I would think I can rescueanybody.
And last year I had to take alittle pivot and decide that not
everybody is pro se material,not everybody is capable of, or
should be, engaging in highconflict litigation, and so I
(14:54):
decided that, yes, now I willsay to them listen, this is why
mediation is a viable option foryou, because and I noticed that
my people, they always want toknow why they're used to me
explaining why.
So mediation is a viable optionfor you because of all these
things you just told me or youjust shared with me, you want to
avoid these things.
(15:15):
This is mediation is probably abetter route for you.
Well, tracey, you know, explainto me how I can come up ahead.
Come out ahead in mediationwhen you know the other party is
really high conflict.
Well, there are ways now.
There are mediators now who aretrained to deal with high
conflict situations, and maybeyou should find somebody who is
actually trained in that.
So, yes, I do more so now thanI did before.
(15:38):
Before.
I used to think everybody cango ahead and represent,
self-represent and do itsuccessfully, no matter what Of
know.
Of course there was someexceptions, but now I'm more
inclined to say you know what.
I know you want to for all yourvarious reasons.
I get it, but I think youshould try an alternative route
right now.
Cary Jacobson (15:58):
Right, and I would imagine that, at least for
me, one of those keyconsiderations would be if they
have children together and ifthey're going to have to
continue to co-parent with oneanother.
Right, because not to say thatthere is not a place for
litigation in those scenarios,but it makes it so much more
(16:19):
challenging to have a healthyco-parenting relationship.
A healthy co-parentingrelationship If they each been
on the stand bashing each otheras, like how terrible of a
parent that they are or why they, why they should have, you know
, primary custody or whateverthe case may be.
(16:39):
It just takes a reallydifferent person to come back
from that and then be able to beable to, you know, really have
a healthy co-parentingrelationship.
Tracey Bee (16:49):
Absolutely.
There are people who will stillchoose to go the litigation
route, and I get it, and evenco-parents, you know.
But and there's there's otherroutes.
If they choose to do that, I'mnot going to force them, I can't
.
But if they choose to do that,I always recommend that they do
at least do co-parenting therapyor work with a parent
coordinator, or to seek atherapist that's going to work
(17:10):
with them in a mediationcapacity alongside them doing
the litigation, go through thelitigation process Right.
Cary Jacobson (17:19):
In your experience have you had any
situations where you know judgesmay approach a pro se litigant
differently than they do someonewho is represented?
Tracey Bee (17:34):
Yes, absolutely 90% of the time, absolutely.
That's a lot of the reason whyI am an advocate.
Now I'm actually working on acompletely different set of
everything because, yes, the wayfamily court perceives pro se
and you know what, carrie, I wasone of them I didn't realize
that until last year.
(17:55):
I didn't realize that a lot ofthe language, a lot of my
attitude, a lot of my approachwas sort of alienating pro se.
They weren't, you know, eventhough I was saying, hey, I can
help you, they weren't receivingthat because I was still
speaking lawyer and a lot ofthem don't want to hear lawyer,
a lot of them don't like lawyers, they don't want to, they don't
(18:17):
trust us, they don't want.
So I didn't know that.
So I really worked on sort ofchanging that.
I didn't want to be complicitin the way family court was
already receiving them andperceiving them.
I wanted to show them hey, Iget it.
But, yes, judges, lawyers,guardian ad litems, I didn't
(18:38):
realize.
A lot of divorce professionalsas well have told me yes, I
automatically, you know, treatedthem differently, I saw them
differently and so, yeah, itstill goes on and I'm really
trying to change that.
I understand the why, but youknow the reality is.
In the next maybe seven to 10years, the process shift is
(19:02):
going to be greater because ofAI and a lot of the rule changes
.
It's going to change thedynamic, the landscape of family
court.
So why not sort of treat themor see them differently?
You know, yeah, but yeah, it'sstill definitely an issue.
Cary Jacobson (19:21):
I agree, and I would imagine it also depends on
the jurisdiction, you know,because some courts are used to
having more pro se individualsthan others.
May, you know, I can only speakto Maryland just because that's
where I'm located and you know,certain counties definitely are
more likely to have a higherpro se population.
(19:42):
But I do think that judges,whether it's implicitly or
explicitly, have a bias, youknow, and that something that
they have to work to to reallykeep in check.
Tracey Bee (19:58):
Yes, yes, and some and you're right by jurisdiction
that you know some of them arereally working to.
They really make an effort andNew York is one of them, believe
it or not to actually make surethat self-represented are not
treated or made to feel likethey're inferior to lawyer
represented.
So you're absolutely correct.
Cary Jacobson (20:18):
Yes, Can you share a success story, a moment
where someone came to youfeeling completely lost, but you
were able to help them controltheir case and achieve a
favorable outcome?
Tracey Bee (20:34):
Yes, I have two, a short-term and a long-term one.
I remember late last year well,mid last year, a mom had come
to me and she was superconcerned with in New Jersey,
super concerned with the otherparent getting 50-50, because
her child, which is about 14years old, did not want to spend
time with her dad because herdad was, you know, verbally
(20:54):
abusive and she just didn't wantto do that.
And so she, the mom, came to me.
She just wanted a one hoursession with me and she felt
defeated, she felt like it wasall going to be a waste, because
she knows, in New Jersey it'stypically 50-50 and she knows,
you know, she's heard all thebad stories about how judges
really don't want to hear fromthe kids and you know that's
(21:16):
something that's not necessarilyacceptable in a family court in
New Jersey.
And so we talked for an hourand she told me that her judge
was open to talking to herdaughter, and so I really I
explained to her what that meant, the fact that the judge was
willing to talk to her daughterand her age and all of these
things.
(21:36):
And by the time she went tocourt the next day and later on
that day she messaged me andsaid you know what?
I didn't get exactly what Iwanted, but the mere fact that
you talked me through this thingfor an hour you restored my
faith.
That you talked me through thisthing for an hour, you restored
my faith, you empowered me andyou gave me the courage to go in
and speak for not just myselfbut for my daughter.
(21:58):
So that alone was priceless andshe couldn't thank me enough
for that.
So that was a success story.
I had another guy that I workedwith on trial prep last year.
Oh, we worked immensely onhelping him prepare for a trial
in California.
He had a uh they had to gothrough.
It was a bifurcated case so hehad to go through the DV portion
(22:20):
of it before he can even theycan even consider custody the
way.
That's the way, uh, californiadoes it.
And yeah, we spent about eightweeks helping him prepare for
his trial.
Yeah, we spent about eightweeks helping him prepare for
his trial.
And, yes, he actually prevailed.
He got the outcome he wanted.
He was able to get the DVdismissed and so that he was
(22:41):
able to get 50-50 custody.
And he did it all on his own.
I mean, he had me do thingslike research and, you know,
prepare him for court.
So we did some role playing.
I like to do role playing and Iexplained to him how to read
body language, like I go througheverything, I actually work on
(23:02):
them with everything, and he won.
He actually got 50-50 custodyof his kids and he's a dad and
he did that in California justwith my help.
So, yeah, those two storiesthose are just two of the many
that I have, but those are theones that stand out to me
because they I remember how theycame to me feeling downtrodden
and feeling like the familycourt system was just so broken
(23:24):
they were never going to prevail.
And actually, having workedwith me is shifted their mindset
and sometimes that's all theyneed is a shift in mindset and
um, and they got uh, outcomesthat they wanted or they felt
good about.
So, yes, those are just acouple of examples.
Cary Jacobson (23:38):
Amazing.
Well, that's.
That's awesome to hear.
And just for our listeners, um,who may not be divorce
professionals, um, traceymentioned DV.
That's a acronym for domesticviolence.
So it sounds like in Californiathey do a domestic violence
case first and then, if that,depending on the outcome of that
, then they do a custody case.
(24:01):
Yes, okay, got it.
Well, our final question todayis what's one piece of advice
that you would like ourlisteners to take away?
Anyone who may be facing familycourt without an attorney,
whether because they can'tafford to or they simply choose
not to what would you recommendfor them if they are feeling
(24:24):
overwhelmed?
Tracey Bee (24:25):
For one, be honest with yourself.
Be honest with yourself, acceptwhat is, pay attention to your
mindset because, as I justmentioned, that is the
underlying basis.
If you don't believe that youcan do this, then you won't.
I don't care who helps you, whoguides you, what resources you
have.
It's not going to do anything.
It starts with you.
(24:46):
But the other thing is, yes, youhave to be on a mission to
always seek answers, the rightanswers, the verifiable answers,
the correct answers fromsources that you can trust,
always.
It doesn't end If you are prose by choice or pro se by force.
Either way, you will be doing alot of seeking out information,
(25:09):
research, answers all the time,actually to set time aside
every week to do just that.
But the other thing is thatjust because you choose to be
pro se if that's who you are youneed to understand that lawyers
are there for your help.
You're, if you need them, whenyou need them.
You can use them in other ways.
(25:30):
As I mentioned before, youshould be using them.
Just because you're choosing tobe pro se does not mean they
can't coexist.
Right, they can coexist.
They can mutually exist.
Yes, there's tons of resourcesout there, but nothing is as
valuable as at least speaking totwo attorneys to give you some
insight, because your judge,your court, your courtroom are
(25:54):
all very unique to you.
Where you are, no better sourceis out there than an attorney
who's been in that courtroom,who's dealt with that judge,
who's been in that environmentbefore.
Cary Jacobson (26:07):
Absolutely so, the key takeaway there being
find someone local to thejurisdiction that you're going
to be in, because you do wantsomeone who's experienced with
the judges in that area.
Tracey Bee (26:19):
Absolutely.
That's priceless because theyknow the process.
You need to know the process.
Family court is 80 percentstrategy, 20 percent law.
Cary Jacobson (26:29):
Right, and not only the process, which is
definitely important, but alsojust the judge's personality.
What is that particular judgelooking for Right Like?
That's something that wasalways drilled into us when I
was litigating, which I don't doanymore, but you know it is
finding out exactly what theirquirks are, what they are
(26:50):
looking for specifically, andthat can be very challenging
because I know here many timeswe don't know the judge who's
going to hear the case until theday before, and sometimes not
even then, you know, until it'sactually assigned.
So that can be really tricky tohave that late notice and then
be able to prepare for that.
Tracey Bee (27:10):
Yes, yes, but if you can, absolutely yes, yes.
Cary Jacobson (27:16):
That's important.
Well, tracey, thank you so muchfor joining me today and for
your important work for doingyou know supporting these
self-represented litigants.
Your insight is empowering andyour dedication to improving
access to justice is trulyinspiring To our listeners.
If you're heading to familycourt without an attorney, know
this you're not alone and youcan always reach out to Tracey
(27:40):
and those other attorneys inyour local jurisdiction to help
you so that you're not fearingit all on your own.
Check out the show notes todayfor resources and links and to
learn how you can reach out toTracey.
Where can people find you?
Tracey Bee (28:00):
www.
thedivorcesolutionist.
com.
I'm on Facebook, I'm onInstagram, I'm on YouTube under
the same name, so perfect.
Cary Jacobson (28:08):
And, as always, thank you for tuning in to
Divorce Diaries Lessons from theTrenches, if you found today's
episode helpful.
And, as always, thank you fortuning in to Divorce Diaries
Lessons from the Trenches.
If you found today's episodehelpful, please subscribe, leave
us a review and share it withsomeone who may benefit.
I'm Keri Jacobson and untilnext time, remember divorce
doesn't have to mean defeat.
With the right support, you canmove forward with purpose and
power.
Intro/Close (28:29):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
divorce diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
But in that time, no matter what area of law I was
in, I always worked with peoplewho were not in the position,
who didn't have the resources tohire me full out.
Especially when I went intoprivate practice as a family law
attorney, a lot of people cameto me and they didn't have the
$5,000 or the $10,000 theyneeded to retain me.
So it was always in the back ofmy mind that I would do
(00:21):
something, create some sort ofresource or some sort of
something that would help them.
Intro/Close (00:29):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, Cary Jacobson brings
you real stories, hard truthsand practical advice on
navigating divorce and familylaw.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:51):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, the podcast where wedive deep into the complex world
of divorce, co-parenting andeverything in between, giving
you the tools to navigate life'stoughest transitions with more
confidence and less chaos.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,and today we're discussing the
topic that has becomeincreasingly relevant what
(01:15):
happens when you have to, orchoose to, represent yourself in
family court.
Joining me today is Tracey Bee,a former family law attorney
with over 25 years of legalexperience, who now dedicates
her work to empoweringself-represented individuals.
Tracey helps people navigatethe often overwhelming family
(01:37):
court system by providingguidance and insight they need
to move forward effectively evenwithout an attorney.
Tracey, thank you so much forbeing on Divorce Diaries.
Tracey Bee (01:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
Cary Jacobson (01:51):
Absolutely.
I'd love for you to share withour listeners how you got
started from being an attorneywith over two decades of
experience and what reallyinspired you to shift your focus
from that traditionalrepresentation and now helping
people represent themselves.
Tracey Bee (02:13):
Sure, sure.
Well, it started where Iactually my first profession was
in mental health, and mydecision to go to law school was
a fluke.
It was something decided at thevery last minute.
So it wasn't my lifelong dreamto be an attorney.
But, honestly, I actually windup being well suited for it
(02:34):
because it gave me the position,it gave me the authority to
build on a lot of skills that Ineeded to help the exact same
population I was helping, whichis the underserved, the
marginalized, the ones that areoften neglected.
So when I did go to law school,I actually wind up doing a lot
of criminal.
I did some landlord tenant, Idid some abuse, neglect, and a
(02:59):
lot of it was family law.
But in that time, no matter whatarea of law I was in, I always
worked with people who were notin the position, who didn't have
the resources to hire me fullout.
Especially when I went intoprivate practice as a family law
attorney, a lot of people cameto me and they didn't have the
5,000 or the 10,000 they neededto retain me.
(03:20):
So it was always in the back ofmy mind that I would do
something, create some sort ofresource or some sort of
something that would help them,and so I took a step back from
practicing altogether a fewyears ago to raise my son, and
at the same time, I had a lot oflosses.
I had to deal with those thingsand, as a culmination of all of
those, I decided thatpracticing wasn't my thing
(03:43):
anymore.
It didn't serve me from a soullevel, and since this was always
in the making to help thepeople that I'm serving right
now, I just decided why not?
What better time than now?
And so I've been doing it forthe past five years, actually
solely working on yes, workingwith the pro se, the
(04:04):
self-represented solely workingon, yes, working with the pro se
, the self-represented.
Cary Jacobson (04:13):
Okay, I often find, you know, there is such a
need for people who don't havethe means to hire an attorney
for full representation, butthey don't, you know, have the
knowledge to really go at itthemselves, and so it's finding
that in between, whether asource like yourself or a
self-help clinic, maybe at theircourthouse or what have you so
there's definitely a need forthe representation that you
(04:37):
provide.
Obviously, it can be sodaunting.
What are some of the biggestchallenges that you see
self-represented litigants facewhen they're going into court
for the first time?
Tracey Bee (04:53):
A lot of people, a lot of people, and I actually
had to shift last year becausewhat I realized with a lot of
self-representatives even thoughthe information is out there
it's 2025, there's informationeverywhere they don't know how
to use it, they don't know whatto make of it, they don't know
how to apply it, and so a lot ofpeople think that they can just
(05:15):
go and get information andthey're going to wing it or
they're going to figure it out,and a lot of them wind up making
the biggest mistakes, notbecause they don't know the law
or because they don't understandthe process, because they're
getting information and theydon't know what to do with it.
They don't know how to analyzeit, apply it, assess it.
They don't know how to do that,and so that's why I spend a lot
(05:36):
of time.
Making people aware of gettinginformation is absolutely
necessary.
You have to know, but you alsohave to know how to use
discernment when you get thatinformation.
You need to know how to usethose critical thinking skills
to determine which of thatinformation is reliable, what is
accurate and how to use itproperly, and so that's a big,
(06:00):
big challenge for pro selitigants.
Cary Jacobson (06:03):
Okay, I'm curious do you work with pro se
litigants in a particularjurisdiction, in a geographical
area?
You know one particular state,or do you work with them all
across the United States?
Tracey Bee (06:17):
I work with them all across the United States.
I make sure they're aware ofwhat I can and cannot do and,
you know, a lot of times thoselines get really, really thin.
But I'm also I'm always awareof you know, when I'm getting
close to that line.
I have a mentor now that Iactually confer with.
He's a retired attorney whokind of keeps me in check to
(06:37):
remind me of you know, hey, youshouldn't be doing these things,
or you know.
But you know what the realityis.
There's a lot of divorceprofessionals out there who are
crossing those lines every dayand it's only because of my
ethical obligation Am I aware.
But a lot of those are divorcecoaches, et cetera.
They're they're giving legaladvice across the country and
(06:59):
I'm so I they remind me that Ican't do that, that it's not
responsible for me to do that,but yes, I work with people all
over the country.
Cary Jacobson (07:07):
Okay, when someone chooses to go pro se,
either because they have to orbecause that's something that
they choose and want to do,where do they begin?
What is the very first step inthat process?
Tracey Bee (07:23):
Their family court website.
If they have it broken down bycounty, go to the county first
and then go to their state.
You have to know what yourjurisdiction, how they operate,
how their layout is, whatresources they have, what you
can do to help yourself.
You have to start there.
It'll take, take you a fewminutes an hour, whatever, but
(07:46):
that is your starting point youneed to know.
You're not going to know familylegal terminology.
You're not going to know whatthe resources.
You're not going to even knowwhat the process is, and a lot
of pro-state litigants have agazillion questions and
rightfully so, but a lot ofthose answers are right there on
their court's website and I, atat least here in Maryland I
(08:08):
find that the courts generallydo a pretty good job of
providing information.
Cary Jacobson (08:14):
You know, we at least have a pretty good series
of videos and forms andinstructions on how to complete
the forms.
So I do think a lot of answerscan be found on the court
website.
Tracey Bee (08:28):
Yes, maryland happens to be.
I've studied every single statewebsite.
Maryland happens to be one ofthe great ones.
Maryland has a lot of resources.
They have a huge database ofinformation on their website.
So, yes, I agree.
Cary Jacobson (08:45):
But, like you said, every court's going to be
different, every county is goingto be different, so you know
there are nuances to eachlocation.
Tracey Bee (08:59):
So it definitely makes sense that that should be
the first place people lookAbsolutely, absolutely,
absolutely.
Cary Jacobson (09:02):
What are some of the most common mistakes you see
self-represented individualsmake, and how would you
recommend that they avoid them?
Tracey Bee (09:12):
Oh, I don't know why it triggers me so much, but
when pro se litigants asknon-lawyers for legal advice,
that drives me crazy.
And they take it.
They actually take it, and I'mlike, oh my God.
And then they'll come backweeks or months later and say,
oh, the judge was this, oh, thelawyer was this.
No, it was you.
You were taking legal advicefrom people who are not
(09:35):
qualified to give you that, andnot only did you listen, you
actually implement it.
You took action based on thatinformation.
That is wrong.
That's a simple step to avoid.
That is going to make a hugedifference in your case.
Don't do that.
If you don't have the resourcesto hire an attorney just for a
(09:56):
consultation, please wait untilyou get that, because I tell pro
se litigants you don't have to,because a lot of people are
choosing to be pro se.
Let me just say that.
But I also remind them that atsome point, even though you're
choosing to self-represent, youstill can work with attorneys in
different capacities.
They're limited scope.
You can get consultationsperiodically.
(10:17):
I always encourage pro selitigants to do that.
Even when I'm working with them, I can't give you legal advice,
so, hey, get a consultation andcome back to me, but it's
imperative that you get at leasttwo consultations from
attorneys and stop listening tonon-lawyers tell you what you
should and should not do in yourcase.
Cary Jacobson (10:40):
Yeah, I see it all the time People posting in
Facebook groups asking forinformation and every single
time there is misinformation.
Single time there ismisinformation.
And you're right like take thetime, take the resources to
gather as much information froma professional who's been
trained in this, instead ofasking people you know.
It's fine to ask people forrecommendations and referrals or
(11:02):
people who've had, you know,certain experience, but not
necessarily for advice on how todo something, Exactly, Exactly.
Tracey Bee (11:10):
It got so bad.
I created a document that saidthat that's the title.
What you think is legal adviceor non-legal advice is and these
are examples because I want youto know and it's not just for
the pro se, I'm sorry, it's forthe divorce coaches too that are
out there giving legal advicewhen they should not be.
I know they mean well, but theyshould not.
They should not be crossingthat line because they're not
(11:31):
doing their clients a service.
When they do that, they'redoing them a disservice.
So, yeah, I created a documentbecause it was.
I don't know why that's mytrigger, Carrie, but it is.
Cary Jacobson (11:40):
Because we're still ethical professionals and
we want to make sure that youknow the people that we serve
are getting the correctinformation and they're using
that correctly.
Tracey Bee (11:52):
Yes, absolutely.
Cary Jacobson (11:54):
So, even though you're not offering legal advice
in the traditional sense, butrather education and support,
what does that typically looklike from a day-to-day
perspective when you're workingwith a client?
Tracey Bee (12:05):
So there's this thing that I created called this
concept, called the legal void.
The legal void is the thingsthat I remember when I was
practicing, the things that Ididn't want my clients asking me
, and so that's what I focus on.
So when they're trying tounderstand, hey, when it's a
question about the process, forinstance, and you know, hey, I
(12:27):
need to know the judge issued anorder in court.
I need to know exactly how longit's going to take for that
order to come.
And then what's the processwhen that order gets here, Does
my lawyer do I mean, does theother party's lawyer do it?
Do I do that?
Do I get a chance to issue myown?
So things like that.
Those are the kind of legalvoid questions where you know,
(12:48):
once I was done, I don't wantanother phone call or several
emails asking me these questions.
So I actually sort of fill thatoverlap.
So a lot of my information andresources are really strategic.
It's really it's to encouragepeople to think on their own, to
ask the question and to seekthe answers from reliable
(13:08):
sources.
That's my underlying theme.
Is everything that happens.
You should know exactly what'sgoing on, why and what the
process is, and so a lot of whatI explained to them is exactly
that it's not saying, hey, thisis what your judge is ruling on,
and this is why it's saying,hey, the process is, he's ruled
on it.
Now, this is what you need todo and need to be mindful of.
Cary Jacobson (13:31):
Right, these are the next steps.
This is how long you have topotentially appeal or or
anything along those lines.
Tracey Bee (13:38):
Yes, exactly, it's a lot about the process.
It's a lot about explaining theprocess to them the family
court process.
Cary Jacobson (13:45):
Got it and I'm sure, if you're working with
people all across the nation,that process is drastically
different from one court to thenext.
Tracey Bee (13:53):
Yes, that's why I have a team of paralegals who
are very good at researching.
Virtual assistants willactually go in.
I have connections, you know.
I establish partnerships withdifferent people where, if we
don't know that county, we havesomebody to contact, or my
paralegals will actually do theresearch or reach out to
somebody in the county to findout exactly what the process is,
(14:13):
so that when we explain itwe're correct.
In that.
Cary Jacobson (14:17):
Got it.
Do you ever recommendalternative dispute resolution
processes, such as mediation orsettlement negotiations for
those folks who are you areworking with?
Tracey Bee (14:30):
Absolutely.
I've noticed.
Oh, I used to think I was sucha goddess since my chain here.
I would think I can rescueanybody.
And last year I had to take alittle pivot and decide that not
everybody is pro se material,not everybody is capable of, or
should be, engaging in highconflict litigation, and so I
(14:54):
decided that, yes, now I willsay to them listen, this is why
mediation is a viable option foryou, because and I noticed that
my people, they always want toknow why they're used to me
explaining why.
So mediation is a viable optionfor you because of all these
things you just told me or youjust shared with me, you want to
avoid these things.
(15:15):
This is mediation is probably abetter route for you.
Well, tracey, you know, explainto me how I can come up ahead.
Come out ahead in mediationwhen you know the other party is
really high conflict.
Well, there are ways now.
There are mediators now who aretrained to deal with high
conflict situations, and maybeyou should find somebody who is
actually trained in that.
So, yes, I do more so now thanI did before.
(15:38):
Before.
I used to think everybody cango ahead and represent,
self-represent and do itsuccessfully, no matter what Of
know.
Of course there was someexceptions, but now I'm more
inclined to say you know what.
I know you want to for all yourvarious reasons.
I get it, but I think youshould try an alternative route
right now.
Cary Jacobson (15:58):
Right, and I would imagine that, at least for
me, one of those keyconsiderations would be if they
have children together and ifthey're going to have to
continue to co-parent with oneanother.
Right, because not to say thatthere is not a place for
litigation in those scenarios,but it makes it so much more
(16:19):
challenging to have a healthyco-parenting relationship.
A healthy co-parentingrelationship If they each been
on the stand bashing each otheras, like how terrible of a
parent that they are or why they, why they should have, you know
, primary custody or whateverthe case may be.
(16:39):
It just takes a reallydifferent person to come back
from that and then be able to beable to, you know, really have
a healthy co-parentingrelationship.
Tracey Bee (16:49):
Absolutely.
There are people who will stillchoose to go the litigation
route, and I get it, and evenco-parents, you know.
But and there's there's otherroutes.
If they choose to do that, I'mnot going to force them, I can't
.
But if they choose to do that,I always recommend that they do
at least do co-parenting therapyor work with a parent
coordinator, or to seek atherapist that's going to work
(17:10):
with them in a mediationcapacity alongside them doing
the litigation, go through thelitigation process Right.
Cary Jacobson (17:19):
In your experience have you had any
situations where you know judgesmay approach a pro se litigant
differently than they do someonewho is represented?
Tracey Bee (17:34):
Yes, absolutely 90% of the time, absolutely.
That's a lot of the reason whyI am an advocate.
Now I'm actually working on acompletely different set of
everything because, yes, the wayfamily court perceives pro se
and you know what, carrie, I wasone of them I didn't realize
that until last year.
(17:55):
I didn't realize that a lot ofthe language, a lot of my
attitude, a lot of my approachwas sort of alienating pro se.
They weren't, you know, eventhough I was saying, hey, I can
help you, they weren't receivingthat because I was still
speaking lawyer and a lot ofthem don't want to hear lawyer,
a lot of them don't like lawyers, they don't want to, they don't
(18:17):
trust us, they don't want.
So I didn't know that.
So I really worked on sort ofchanging that.
I didn't want to be complicitin the way family court was
already receiving them andperceiving them.
I wanted to show them hey, Iget it.
But, yes, judges, lawyers,guardian ad litems, I didn't
(18:38):
realize.
A lot of divorce professionalsas well have told me yes, I
automatically, you know, treatedthem differently, I saw them
differently and so, yeah, itstill goes on and I'm really
trying to change that.
I understand the why, but youknow the reality is.
In the next maybe seven to 10years, the process shift is
(19:02):
going to be greater because ofAI and a lot of the rule changes
.
It's going to change thedynamic, the landscape of family
court.
So why not sort of treat themor see them differently?
You know, yeah, but yeah, it'sstill definitely an issue.
Cary Jacobson (19:21):
I agree, and I would imagine it also depends on
the jurisdiction, you know,because some courts are used to
having more pro se individualsthan others.
May, you know, I can only speakto Maryland just because that's
where I'm located and you know,certain counties definitely are
more likely to have a higherpro se population.
(19:42):
But I do think that judges,whether it's implicitly or
explicitly, have a bias, youknow, and that something that
they have to work to to reallykeep in check.
Tracey Bee (19:58):
Yes, yes, and some and you're right by jurisdiction
that you know some of them arereally working to.
They really make an effort andNew York is one of them, believe
it or not to actually make surethat self-represented are not
treated or made to feel likethey're inferior to lawyer
represented.
So you're absolutely correct.
Cary Jacobson (20:18):
Yes, Can you share a success story, a moment
where someone came to youfeeling completely lost, but you
were able to help them controltheir case and achieve a
favorable outcome?
Tracey Bee (20:34):
Yes, I have two, a short-term and a long-term one.
I remember late last year well,mid last year, a mom had come
to me and she was superconcerned with in New Jersey,
super concerned with the otherparent getting 50-50, because
her child, which is about 14years old, did not want to spend
time with her dad because herdad was, you know, verbally
(20:54):
abusive and she just didn't wantto do that.
And so she, the mom, came to me.
She just wanted a one hoursession with me and she felt
defeated, she felt like it wasall going to be a waste, because
she knows, in New Jersey it'stypically 50-50 and she knows,
you know, she's heard all thebad stories about how judges
really don't want to hear fromthe kids and you know that's
(21:16):
something that's not necessarilyacceptable in a family court in
New Jersey.
And so we talked for an hourand she told me that her judge
was open to talking to herdaughter, and so I really I
explained to her what that meant, the fact that the judge was
willing to talk to her daughterand her age and all of these
things.
(21:36):
And by the time she went tocourt the next day and later on
that day she messaged me andsaid you know what?
I didn't get exactly what Iwanted, but the mere fact that
you talked me through this thingfor an hour you restored my
faith.
That you talked me through thisthing for an hour, you restored
my faith, you empowered me andyou gave me the courage to go in
and speak for not just myselfbut for my daughter.
(21:58):
So that alone was priceless andshe couldn't thank me enough
for that.
So that was a success story.
I had another guy that I workedwith on trial prep last year.
Oh, we worked immensely onhelping him prepare for a trial
in California.
He had a uh they had to gothrough.
It was a bifurcated case so hehad to go through the DV portion
(22:20):
of it before he can even theycan even consider custody the
way.
That's the way, uh, californiadoes it.
And yeah, we spent about eightweeks helping him prepare for
his trial.
Yeah, we spent about eightweeks helping him prepare for
his trial.
And, yes, he actually prevailed.
He got the outcome he wanted.
He was able to get the DVdismissed and so that he was
(22:41):
able to get 50-50 custody.
And he did it all on his own.
I mean, he had me do thingslike research and, you know,
prepare him for court.
So we did some role playing.
I like to do role playing and Iexplained to him how to read
body language, like I go througheverything, I actually work on
(23:02):
them with everything, and he won.
He actually got 50-50 custodyof his kids and he's a dad and
he did that in California justwith my help.
So, yeah, those two storiesthose are just two of the many
that I have, but those are theones that stand out to me
because they I remember how theycame to me feeling downtrodden
and feeling like the familycourt system was just so broken
(23:24):
they were never going to prevail.
And actually, having workedwith me is shifted their mindset
and sometimes that's all theyneed is a shift in mindset and
um, and they got uh, outcomesthat they wanted or they felt
good about.
So, yes, those are just acouple of examples.
Cary Jacobson (23:38):
Amazing.
Well, that's.
That's awesome to hear.
And just for our listeners, um,who may not be divorce
professionals, um, traceymentioned DV.
That's a acronym for domesticviolence.
So it sounds like in Californiathey do a domestic violence
case first and then, if that,depending on the outcome of that
, then they do a custody case.
(24:01):
Yes, okay, got it.
Well, our final question todayis what's one piece of advice
that you would like ourlisteners to take away?
Anyone who may be facing familycourt without an attorney,
whether because they can'tafford to or they simply choose
not to what would you recommendfor them if they are feeling
(24:24):
overwhelmed?
Tracey Bee (24:25):
For one, be honest with yourself.
Be honest with yourself, acceptwhat is, pay attention to your
mindset because, as I justmentioned, that is the
underlying basis.
If you don't believe that youcan do this, then you won't.
I don't care who helps you, whoguides you, what resources you
have.
It's not going to do anything.
It starts with you.
(24:46):
But the other thing is, yes, youhave to be on a mission to
always seek answers, the rightanswers, the verifiable answers,
the correct answers fromsources that you can trust,
always.
It doesn't end If you are prose by choice or pro se by force.
Either way, you will be doing alot of seeking out information,
(25:09):
research, answers all the time,actually to set time aside
every week to do just that.
But the other thing is thatjust because you choose to be
pro se if that's who you are youneed to understand that lawyers
are there for your help.
You're, if you need them, whenyou need them.
You can use them in other ways.
(25:30):
As I mentioned before, youshould be using them.
Just because you're choosing tobe pro se does not mean they
can't coexist.
Right, they can coexist.
They can mutually exist.
Yes, there's tons of resourcesout there, but nothing is as
valuable as at least speaking totwo attorneys to give you some
insight, because your judge,your court, your courtroom are
(25:54):
all very unique to you.
Where you are, no better sourceis out there than an attorney
who's been in that courtroom,who's dealt with that judge,
who's been in that environmentbefore.
Cary Jacobson (26:07):
Absolutely so, the key takeaway there being
find someone local to thejurisdiction that you're going
to be in, because you do wantsomeone who's experienced with
the judges in that area.
Tracey Bee (26:19):
Absolutely.
That's priceless because theyknow the process.
You need to know the process.
Family court is 80 percentstrategy, 20 percent law.
Cary Jacobson (26:29):
Right, and not only the process, which is
definitely important, but alsojust the judge's personality.
What is that particular judgelooking for Right Like?
That's something that wasalways drilled into us when I
was litigating, which I don't doanymore, but you know it is
finding out exactly what theirquirks are, what they are
(26:50):
looking for specifically, andthat can be very challenging
because I know here many timeswe don't know the judge who's
going to hear the case until theday before, and sometimes not
even then, you know, until it'sactually assigned.
So that can be really tricky tohave that late notice and then
be able to prepare for that.
Tracey Bee (27:10):
Yes, yes, but if you can, absolutely yes, yes.
Cary Jacobson (27:16):
That's important.
Well, tracey, thank you so muchfor joining me today and for
your important work for doingyou know supporting these
self-represented litigants.
Your insight is empowering andyour dedication to improving
access to justice is trulyinspiring To our listeners.
If you're heading to familycourt without an attorney, know
this you're not alone and youcan always reach out to Tracey
(27:40):
and those other attorneys inyour local jurisdiction to help
you so that you're not fearingit all on your own.
Check out the show notes todayfor resources and links and to
learn how you can reach out toTracey.
Where can people find you?
Tracey Bee (28:00):
www.
thedivorcesolutionist.
com.
I'm on Facebook, I'm onInstagram, I'm on YouTube under
the same name, so perfect.
Cary Jacobson (28:08):
And, as always, thank you for tuning in to
Divorce Diaries Lessons from theTrenches, if you found today's
episode helpful.
And, as always, thank you fortuning in to Divorce Diaries
Lessons from the Trenches.
If you found today's episodehelpful, please subscribe, leave
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I'm Keri Jacobson and untilnext time, remember divorce
doesn't have to mean defeat.
With the right support, you canmove forward with purpose and
power.
Intro/Close (28:29):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
divorce diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
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