July 8, 2025 • 29 mins
The emotional aftermath of divorce often blindsides us when we least expect it. Just when the paperwork is finalized and court appearances end, a profound sense of grief emerges—catching many off guard who anticipated only feeling relief. Dr. Emma Mansour, licensed psychologist and owner of Life Matters Counseling, joins Cary Jacobson to unpack this complex emotional landscape and offer guidance for those navigating the turbulent waters of separation.
Ready to gain clarity and peace of mind during your divorce journey? Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to schedule a consultation and discover how we can support your path forward.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Emma Mansour (00:00):
In midlife.
I like to say we've been livinginside these roles it's partner
, it's parent, it's caretakerright that maybe sandwich
generation or we're caretakingour older parents, and divorce
just disrupts all thosestructures.
(00:22):
And yeah, so we have to gothrough this sort of
reintroduction to ourselves
Intro/Close (00:29):
welcome to divorce diaries, where Cary
jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:51):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, the podcast, where wetalk honestly about the
challenges and triumphs thatcome with divorce, co-parenting
and rebuilding your life withintention.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,family law attorney and mediator
at Jacobson Family Law, andtoday we're diving into the
emotional side of divorce,something that is really not
(01:12):
talked about enough, in myopinion, and it doesn't get
enough attention.
So to help us do that, we arejoined by Dr Emma Mansour, a
licensed psychologist speakerand the owner of Life Matters
Counseling and PsychologicalServices in Utah.
Emma brings over a decade ofexperience helping individuals,
(01:34):
especially women in midlife,navigate the emotional
complexities, separation andrediscover who they are after a
major life transition such asdivorce.
Her compassionate, culturallyinformed approach is all about
helping people move forward withclarity, self-compassion and
strength.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Dr. Emma Mansour (01:55):
Thanks for having me.
Cary Jacobson (01:57):
So I'd love to start with the emotional
landscape of divorce.
In your experience, what is oneof the biggest emotional
hurdles people face, either atthe beginning of their
separation or when they're goingthrough divorce?
Dr. Emma Mansour (02:18):
I think the biggest hurdle people face is a
sense of loss.
What I see in my practice ispeople expect to feel a sense of
relief.
It's all finally over, right, Idon't have to meet with lawyers
anymore, I don't have to go tocourt anymore, I don't have to
(02:41):
read paperwork anymore.
But then there's this deepsense of grief that shows up and
I think they feel that you know, haven't I done this already?
It's been so long, right,shouldn't this have been taken
care of?
And so that's sort of thebiggest emotional surprise.
I see people work through Asense of almost a mix, I think,
(03:05):
of grief, shame, fear and evenanger.
Anger can show up again in areally different way, so it's a
deep sense of loss, right, yeah.
Cary Jacobson (03:19):
And how do people kind of work through that?
Dr. Emma Mansour (03:23):
Yeah, in therapy it's about not judging
those emotions, that those areokay and in fact, grief in the
sense of loss of a loved one isalso never linear.
It's cyclical, and you may havegrieved or felt the loss of
(03:44):
certain parts of this in thedivorce process.
You know the legal part of it.
Now that that's over, you mighthave to do an emotional part of
it and so really just notjudging that this is coming up
again.
It's not because you didn'tcomplete something Right.
This is the next step.
Something Right, so this is thenext step.
(04:04):
So, building that supportsystem, having you know a
therapist and just being able tosay, okay, this might be a
longer process than I expected.
Cary Jacobson (04:29):
And that's really okay, right?
Do you generally work withpeople who are at the initial
stages?
Dr. Emma Mansour (04:32):
and making decisions to separate during the
divorce process or post divorce, or maybe a mix of all three of
those.
Yeah, it's a mix of all three.
So it depends on how familiarpeople are with therapy, I think
.
You know, ideally, I think it'sbest to come in, either when
the marriage is maybe failing orstarting to fall apart, right.
(04:53):
But definitely, if you know,for some people they're caught
off guard and they come in inthat stage and say I didn't see
this coming Right.
And some people feel like theyhold it all together really well
until the end, and then theycome in and like, oh, this is a
lot harder than I imagined.
On average I would say it'sabout a 12 to 18 months, if I
(05:17):
were to put a time on it that Ithink a lot of people have some
dysregulation around this lifechange, have some dysregulation
around this life change, andthen there's some clarity that
sits in and I think that whatdoes that look like?
That's really hard to say andin some ways it's very subtle.
(05:39):
So it might be less wonderingabout the what if.
So it might be less wonderingabout the what if, or maybe you
think about your ex, and it'sless dysregulating, right?
Cary Jacobson (05:57):
Right, it's a passing thought versus getting
stuck there for long periods oftime.
Yeah, so now I know you work alot with women who are kind of
in that midlife part of theirworld, who may be, you know,
redefining themselves,especially after divorce.
How does divorce impact theiridentity and why can this stage
(06:28):
of life be?
Dr. Emma Mansour (06:29):
such a powerful but sometimes
challenging time to rebuild.
Yeah, you know, in midlifewe've I like to say we've been
living inside these roles.
You know they're it's partner,it's parents, it's it's
caretaker right, that maybesandwich generation, or we're
caretaking our older parents,and divorce just disrupts all
(06:49):
those structures.
Yeah, and yeah.
So we have to go through thissort of reintroduction to
ourselves.
Well, if this huge role doesn'texist, right, as a partner,
what happens to that role I hadfor myself, if my role as parent
(07:10):
changes because now I'mco-parenting, right?
What does that mean?
Right, you know, maybe ourparents in their generation
don't like this idea of divorceSometimes that's there, right,
how do I deal with that?
So, all these structures we'velived in, these roles that we've
(07:31):
had, change, and that's reallydifficult because of how long
we've spent building thosestructures right and doing those
roles.
So, really giving ourselves.
I think the challenge here isgiving ourselves permission to
rebuild something.
Right, maybe, giving ourselvespermission to do things we
(07:54):
haven't done in a very long time.
Right, find our interests again, right.
Reconnect, and it's going to bemessy again, right, reconnect
and it's going to be messy so,but it's full of possibility,
(08:16):
right.
It is sort of where I like toguide my clients.
Yeah, this is really messy andwe might sit here for months
saying I don't even know who Iam or what I like to do, and
maybe you don't have the kids ona weekend and you did nothing
but doom scroll and then that'smessy.
That's the messy part of it.
It's going to take some time,but it's full of possibility.
Cary Jacobson (08:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that is definitely
something that we all kind ofgrapple with.
In midlife, you know,especially as kids get older,
you find that you have more timeon your hands.
And now, in this situation, youknow even more potential time,
because if you're co-parentingand you no longer have that
(09:01):
partner in the home, it isreally learning.
What is it that I like, what isit that I that makes me happy,
and trying to figure out whatdoes that look like?
Dr. Emma Mansour (09:14):
now, yeah, maybe it's, you know, taking up
a painting class because youhave some extra time and maybe
you don't trade.
Maybe you end up, you know,with with full custody and and
that's a whole different youknow issue, right, yeah, and
maybe then it's a shift to sortof empowerment as part of
(09:35):
healing, right, that you can dothis, yeah.
So, yeah, lots of possibilitiesright, of ways we can show up
for ourselves.
I appreciate that we probablyhave a lot more going for
ourselves that we can be proudof in managing our life than we
probably give ourselves creditfor.
Cary Jacobson (09:56):
Right Now.
I know that many of our clientstalk about feeling a deep sense
of shame and failure arounddivorce.
I think that's a lot of reasonswhy people put it off for so
long, sometimes even when theyknow that the relationship
(10:18):
needed to end.
Why is there such a commonreaction, or what you know?
Why is that such a commonreaction and how can we restart
to reframe that narrative?
Dr. Emma Mansour (10:31):
Yeah, I love this question because I think
flipping the narrative is reallysomething we should be putting
out there a lot more, or havingthe conversation around a lot
more.
Putting out there a lot more orhaving the conversation around
a lot more.
There are relationships wherepeople have unfortunately have
(10:52):
to, you know, chronicallysilence their voices, maybe
suppress their needs.
I like to say for some peoplethey've had to sort of shape
shift themselves just to keepthe peace, right, we know those
relationships are out there andand over time they've lost touch
with their values and, you know, their bodies, cues on their
(11:18):
sense of self and what is safeand leaving those relationships
and what is safe and leavingthose relationships, I, I do not
consider that a failure, right,and in fact I think it's a.
It's a, it's an act ofself-respect that this was not a
place that I was okay stayingand that's not the end of the
(11:41):
story, right, it's.
It's it's a start of reclaiminga life and that's sort the end
of the story, right, it's astart of reclaiming a life and
that's sort of in that, you know, maybe more negative, abusive
relationship realm of thespectrum In terms of culturally.
Yeah, I think there's some workto do there as well, right?
(12:02):
You know we are so as humans,driven towards connection, right
, that is our survival, and sodivorce brings up this
vulnerability.
Right that, if we lose thisconnection, what does this mean
about what we're worth?
Right?
(12:23):
Are we lovable?
Right?
Have we become unlovable?
Right?
And so all of that, I think, iswrapped up in this idea that
divorce is some sort of failure,right that we're not good at
relationships, so no one's goingto love me again.
And you know, on the extremeend, I've heard clients say
(12:45):
things like you know, I'm goingto die alone.
Right, it's really painful, butit's also so deeply human,
right, that is something that wefear, because that goes against
our survival.
That's not optimal for us.
So, you know, in some ways Ilike to shift it to you know,
(13:06):
well, who are we becoming now?
Right?
There's so much left on thisjourney, right?
So who are we becoming now?
Right?
How did I honor myself in thisprocess?
Right?
How can I still honor myself?
And that's the self-compassionpiece, right, right at the end,
(13:29):
right?
Cary Jacobson (13:30):
absolutely.
It's just the beginning of anew chapter, yeah, but I imagine
that grieving and I think youmentioned this before really
does happen during divorce, notjust for the, but just for the
idea of the version of the youknow, the life that we thought
(13:51):
we were going to have.
Right, how do you help clientsprocess that loss?
Dr. Emma Mansour (13:58):
Yeah, it's really slow at first.
So there's a lot of impatiencethat I that I see show up, right
.
Well, why is this not happeningfast enough?
In fact, you know it'sinteresting the statistics on
how men and women sort ofprocess post-divorce tells us
that, you know, men are morelikely to jump faster or earlier
(14:21):
into the dating pool than womenare.
And I think this is what'striggering that right, sort of
like we've got to move past thisfaster.
Right, I'm supposed to be donewith this part, right.
And again, it's that connectionpiece.
We're driven to connection, sowe're going to go find it
somewhere else.
Women tend to not want to dothat.
They're a little more reticent,like, oh, this was really hard,
(14:46):
um, so it's very slow.
But growth, I think, ispossible and I think it starts
with self-trust.
That's where I like to startwith people right, so they've
spent so much time in fear anddoubt.
But getting back to trust, nottrust of others that's a big one
in divorce.
Like, how do I trust arelationship again?
(15:07):
How do we trust yourself, right, that you can make good
decisions, right, you can honoryour boundaries.
Right, that you can find joy?
You know that that's somethingthat you can create a
relationship that brings you joyRight.
(15:32):
That you deserve to be happy,yeah, that you can find someone
you want to meet.
Right, that you can be alone.
I mean, a lot of the work isspent just figuring out how to
enjoy being alone.
Right, that you can think aboutwalking up to your house and
(15:54):
there's nobody there, butactually feel excited to do that
at the end of the day.
Right, that's part of healingtoo, right, like, yeah, there's
no one there, but I really wantto be home and then that kind of
goes into that self-compassion.
Cary Jacobson (16:17):
What role does self-compassion and mental
health practices play in healingafter divorce, especially if
for those people who do feellike they've lost themselves in
the process?
Dr. Emma Mansour (16:33):
Yeah, I think self-compassion is just not
negotiable in this process.
It really allows you to Idescribe it to people as it
allows you to treat yourself assomeone worth caring for, and a
lot of times in the divorceprocess, if it's messy, caring
for yourself has taken thebackseat, right.
(16:54):
So how do you care for yourself, even when you're at your
lowest right, where you feellike you got no resources left?
And so it really is anon-negotiable.
You know, and in some ways youhave to.
You know it's a relationshipit's taken two of you to create,
(17:16):
and probably two of you havecontributed in some way to the
pain.
And so how do you doself-compassion?
I hear people say, well, how canI be compassionate to myself
when I know, right, that in someways I can see how I've
contributed to the pain in therelationship?
You absolutely can, right, youcan still hold yourself with
(17:37):
kindness Right and and work togrow in the areas where you
needed some work.
Right, that's still possible.
You were doing your best.
Right, you didn't know somethings.
Right, that was still possible.
You were doing your best.
Right, you didn't know somethings.
Right, you made some mistakesalong the way.
Right, it's life.
We do that, so we can stillacknowledge harm and have a
(17:58):
capacity to grow, and that isself-compassion, right?
So maybe you speak to yourselfmore kindly, more gently, right?
Maybe you are in therapy andyou're meeting with a counselor
that's self-compassion.
Maybe it's being more mindfulof your relationships you have
(18:21):
around you still, and how youfoster those.
You know, I like the classicquestion of you know what would
you say to a friend still, andhow you foster those.
You know I like the classicquestion of you know what would
you say to a friend?
Yep, I was just thinking that,yeah, you probably wouldn't be
like yeah no one should ever bewith you.
Don't say it to yourself.
(18:41):
Yeah, yeah, so there's somepretty good work out there by
the author is Kristen Neff.
She's probably the main personwho speaks on self-compassion.
Cary Jacobson (19:06):
And she'll talk a lot on on, for your work is
bringing culturally informedlens.
How can culture and upbringingshape the way someone may
experience divorce or emotionaltransitions?
Dr. Emma Mansour (19:22):
Yeah, so by culture I mean you know culture
in terms of you know race andethnicity.
So I think it's alwaysimportant to understand what
divorce means culturally.
So there are some cultureswhere this is quite harmful to
(19:43):
reputation and has quite longlasting effects on what is
possible for the person in theirsort of future.
So when talking aboutempowerment, it is really
important to know what'spossible and what restraints
they actually have.
You know, culture can also bereligion, right.
(20:04):
So there are some religiousconstraints or sort of
restrictions placed on what'spossible with divorce or what
that does mean for a person.
So I'm in Utah, so for us it'sthe LDS faith and that has some
pretty interesting implicationsfor people.
And then, interestingly enough,and quite recently I think,
(20:26):
culture is also age.
So there's an increase in, youknow, sort of that divorce in
sort of the latter years of life, and that's really interesting
in the therapy room because thathas implications that in the
younger years maybe are not asimportant.
(20:48):
So what do we do with, you know, health care, right, and
disease and sort of?
You know it's not am I going todie alone, but like who's going
to take care of me if I getreally sick here, right, right,
and we had planned, you know,this type type of retirement,
and now I don't know what to do.
Um, and and that's really thatcan be really scary absolutely a
(21:14):
different type of fear thatenters the room at that point.
So it's yeah, it's a lot, it'sa lot of things um culture isn't
just, you know race andethnicity.
It's sort of what context doyour clients exist in and what
pressures are those placing onthem in terms of what the
(21:34):
fallout could be of making thisdecision Right?
Cary Jacobson (21:42):
Yeah, there's so many things that definitely
impact how people are going tokind of perceive divorce in the
first place and also kind ofexperience it based on their
culture.
Yeah, I always like to hear youknow some success stories.
Can you share with ourlisteners an anonymous story
(22:07):
where you've worked with aclient who has transformed
through this process and foundstrength or clarity that maybe
they didn't really expect?
Dr. Emma Mansour (22:18):
Oh, there's so many.
There really is.
You know, my.
The ones I really enjoy are arethe people who, the clients who
go back to school going to haveany money Right, then they,
(22:49):
they do, they, they.
They find a job that they neverthought they'd like and they,
they flourish in it.
Right, and they find strengthand they are great leaders and
they make it and they have moremoney than they thought would
ever be possible.
Right, they're clients who, um,you know, all of a sudden get to
(23:12):
decorate their house the waythey want it and they love it
and it's their sanctuary, andthey, they don't even you can't
even imagine what their oldplace was, right, yeah, they're
clients who find newrelationships and they're
(23:33):
they've never been happier,right, yeah, and they wish they
had met those people sooner,because now they've got less
time with them and they just putsmiles on your faces.
It's a joy to watch and as atherapist, it's really hard,
(23:53):
because when you meet them attheir lowest point, you really
just want to say this stupidthing like it all gets better,
yeah, but you know that that'sdumb and you can't say that.
But I'll say it now it reallycan get better, yeah, and have
(24:13):
faith and with the right support, it it will.
Yeah, and and you know I'll say, look back at all the times in
your life where things have feltreally terrible, not lasted.
Cary Jacobson (24:25):
Right.
I see it so often in likeFacebook groups, you know, maybe
local groups or specialtydivorce groups, people who are
at that beginning stage and somany women come in and support
and talk about.
You know how great um thingsare now on the other side, right
(24:47):
, like they never thought thatthey were going to be in that
place and now they'reflourishing and they are so much
happier.
But it does take that work.
But you know, if you had askedthem months or even years ago,
(25:07):
would they have expected that tohappen, and not necessarily,
but you know it is.
It is nice to see that support,letting them know others know
that there is possibility outthere.
Dr. Emma Mansour (25:16):
Yeah, there will be a big chunk of time
where it won't feel possible,but that does not mean that it
isn't yeah.
Cary Jacobson (25:24):
Yeah, well, before we wrap up, what's one
piece of advice that you wouldgive someone who might be
listening, um, that's in theemotional fog of divorce and
doesn't know how to move forward?
Dr. Emma Mansour (25:39):
Yeah, I would say, um, divorce is never easy,
but it doesn't have to be theend of the story.
It's.
It's very often presented asthe end of the story, but it is
not.
And get the right support.
The right support is going tobe crucial.
(26:01):
Get the support that's going tobuild in the self-compassion
piece, that's going to build inthe space to rediscover who you
are, and it can be the beginningof something really meaningful.
Um, and it can be really hardto focus on yourself, though,
(26:24):
right, like, the pull is real,especially if you have children.
This isn't about me, this isabout the kids, and that is so
true, um, and there's a part ofthis that has to be about you,
right.
So healing is possible, notbecause everything becomes
perfect Do you want to say thatbut because you do get a greater
(26:48):
sense of what's true for you.
But find the support.
It is really crucial.
Cary Jacobson (27:02):
Absolutely Well, Dr Emma Mansoor, thank you so
much for being with us today.
Can you let our listeners knowhow they can find out more about
you and the services that youprovide?
Dr. Emma Mansour (27:10):
Yes, so unfortunately I can't provide
services outside of the state ofUtah, but if you are in Utah
you can go to our website it iswwwlifematterpsychcom, or you
can give our offices a call.
It's 385-219-4980.
Cary Jacobson (27:33):
Awesome and we'll be sure to put that link in the
show notes.
And for all of you who arelistening, be sure to check out
her website so that you canlearn more about the services
that she can provide or you knowmore information.
And if you're going throughdivorce and you need legal help
to move forward with clarity andpeace of mind and you happen to
be in Maryland, be sure tocheck out our website, which is
(27:56):
JacobsonFamilyLaw.
com, to schedule a consultation.
Thanks for tuning in to DivorceDiaries Lessons from the
Trenches.
Be sure to give us a follow,leave us a review and share this
episode with someone who mightneed it.
Have a great day.
Intro/Close (28:13):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
divorce diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
In midlife.
I like to say we've been livinginside these roles it's partner
, it's parent, it's caretakerright that maybe sandwich
generation or we're caretakingour older parents, and divorce
just disrupts all thosestructures.
(00:22):
And yeah, so we have to gothrough this sort of
reintroduction to ourselves
Intro/Close (00:29):
welcome to divorce diaries, where Cary
jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:51):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, the podcast, where wetalk honestly about the
challenges and triumphs thatcome with divorce, co-parenting
and rebuilding your life withintention.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,family law attorney and mediator
at Jacobson Family Law, andtoday we're diving into the
emotional side of divorce,something that is really not
(01:12):
talked about enough, in myopinion, and it doesn't get
enough attention.
So to help us do that, we arejoined by Dr Emma Mansour, a
licensed psychologist speakerand the owner of Life Matters
Counseling and PsychologicalServices in Utah.
Emma brings over a decade ofexperience helping individuals,
(01:34):
especially women in midlife,navigate the emotional
complexities, separation andrediscover who they are after a
major life transition such asdivorce.
Her compassionate, culturallyinformed approach is all about
helping people move forward withclarity, self-compassion and
strength.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Dr. Emma Mansour (01:55):
Thanks for having me.
Cary Jacobson (01:57):
So I'd love to start with the emotional
landscape of divorce.
In your experience, what is oneof the biggest emotional
hurdles people face, either atthe beginning of their
separation or when they're goingthrough divorce?
Dr. Emma Mansour (02:18):
I think the biggest hurdle people face is a
sense of loss.
What I see in my practice ispeople expect to feel a sense of
relief.
It's all finally over, right, Idon't have to meet with lawyers
anymore, I don't have to go tocourt anymore, I don't have to
(02:41):
read paperwork anymore.
But then there's this deepsense of grief that shows up and
I think they feel that you know, haven't I done this already?
It's been so long, right,shouldn't this have been taken
care of?
And so that's sort of thebiggest emotional surprise.
I see people work through Asense of almost a mix, I think,
(03:05):
of grief, shame, fear and evenanger.
Anger can show up again in areally different way, so it's a
deep sense of loss, right, yeah.
Cary Jacobson (03:19):
And how do people kind of work through that?
Dr. Emma Mansour (03:23):
Yeah, in therapy it's about not judging
those emotions, that those areokay and in fact, grief in the
sense of loss of a loved one isalso never linear.
It's cyclical, and you may havegrieved or felt the loss of
(03:44):
certain parts of this in thedivorce process.
You know the legal part of it.
Now that that's over, you mighthave to do an emotional part of
it and so really just notjudging that this is coming up
again.
It's not because you didn'tcomplete something Right.
This is the next step.
Something Right, so this is thenext step.
(04:04):
So, building that supportsystem, having you know a
therapist and just being able tosay, okay, this might be a
longer process than I expected.
Cary Jacobson (04:29):
And that's really okay, right?
Do you generally work withpeople who are at the initial
stages?
Dr. Emma Mansour (04:32):
and making decisions to separate during the
divorce process or post divorce, or maybe a mix of all three of
those.
Yeah, it's a mix of all three.
So it depends on how familiarpeople are with therapy, I think
.
You know, ideally, I think it'sbest to come in, either when
the marriage is maybe failing orstarting to fall apart, right.
(04:53):
But definitely, if you know,for some people they're caught
off guard and they come in inthat stage and say I didn't see
this coming Right.
And some people feel like theyhold it all together really well
until the end, and then theycome in and like, oh, this is a
lot harder than I imagined.
On average I would say it'sabout a 12 to 18 months, if I
(05:17):
were to put a time on it that Ithink a lot of people have some
dysregulation around this lifechange, have some dysregulation
around this life change, andthen there's some clarity that
sits in and I think that whatdoes that look like?
That's really hard to say andin some ways it's very subtle.
(05:39):
So it might be less wonderingabout the what if.
So it might be less wonderingabout the what if, or maybe you
think about your ex, and it'sless dysregulating, right?
Cary Jacobson (05:57):
Right, it's a passing thought versus getting
stuck there for long periods oftime.
Yeah, so now I know you work alot with women who are kind of
in that midlife part of theirworld, who may be, you know,
redefining themselves,especially after divorce.
How does divorce impact theiridentity and why can this stage
(06:28):
of life be?
Dr. Emma Mansour (06:29):
such a powerful but sometimes
challenging time to rebuild.
Yeah, you know, in midlifewe've I like to say we've been
living inside these roles.
You know they're it's partner,it's parents, it's it's
caretaker right, that maybesandwich generation, or we're
caretaking our older parents,and divorce just disrupts all
(06:49):
those structures.
Yeah, and yeah.
So we have to go through thissort of reintroduction to
ourselves.
Well, if this huge role doesn'texist, right, as a partner,
what happens to that role I hadfor myself, if my role as parent
(07:10):
changes because now I'mco-parenting, right?
What does that mean?
Right, you know, maybe ourparents in their generation
don't like this idea of divorceSometimes that's there, right,
how do I deal with that?
So, all these structures we'velived in, these roles that we've
(07:31):
had, change, and that's reallydifficult because of how long
we've spent building thosestructures right and doing those
roles.
So, really giving ourselves.
I think the challenge here isgiving ourselves permission to
rebuild something.
Right, maybe, giving ourselvespermission to do things we
(07:54):
haven't done in a very long time.
Right, find our interests again, right.
Reconnect, and it's going to bemessy again, right, reconnect
and it's going to be messy so,but it's full of possibility,
(08:16):
right.
It is sort of where I like toguide my clients.
Yeah, this is really messy andwe might sit here for months
saying I don't even know who Iam or what I like to do, and
maybe you don't have the kids ona weekend and you did nothing
but doom scroll and then that'smessy.
That's the messy part of it.
It's going to take some time,but it's full of possibility.
Cary Jacobson (08:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that is definitely
something that we all kind ofgrapple with.
In midlife, you know,especially as kids get older,
you find that you have more timeon your hands.
And now, in this situation, youknow even more potential time,
because if you're co-parentingand you no longer have that
(09:01):
partner in the home, it isreally learning.
What is it that I like, what isit that I that makes me happy,
and trying to figure out whatdoes that look like?
Dr. Emma Mansour (09:14):
now, yeah, maybe it's, you know, taking up
a painting class because youhave some extra time and maybe
you don't trade.
Maybe you end up, you know,with with full custody and and
that's a whole different youknow issue, right, yeah, and
maybe then it's a shift to sortof empowerment as part of
(09:35):
healing, right, that you can dothis, yeah.
So, yeah, lots of possibilitiesright, of ways we can show up
for ourselves.
I appreciate that we probablyhave a lot more going for
ourselves that we can be proudof in managing our life than we
probably give ourselves creditfor.
Cary Jacobson (09:56):
Right Now.
I know that many of our clientstalk about feeling a deep sense
of shame and failure arounddivorce.
I think that's a lot of reasonswhy people put it off for so
long, sometimes even when theyknow that the relationship
(10:18):
needed to end.
Why is there such a commonreaction, or what you know?
Why is that such a commonreaction and how can we restart
to reframe that narrative?
Dr. Emma Mansour (10:31):
Yeah, I love this question because I think
flipping the narrative is reallysomething we should be putting
out there a lot more, or havingthe conversation around a lot
more.
Putting out there a lot more orhaving the conversation around
a lot more.
There are relationships wherepeople have unfortunately have
(10:52):
to, you know, chronicallysilence their voices, maybe
suppress their needs.
I like to say for some peoplethey've had to sort of shape
shift themselves just to keepthe peace, right, we know those
relationships are out there andand over time they've lost touch
with their values and, you know, their bodies, cues on their
(11:18):
sense of self and what is safeand leaving those relationships
and what is safe and leavingthose relationships, I, I do not
consider that a failure, right,and in fact I think it's a.
It's a, it's an act ofself-respect that this was not a
place that I was okay stayingand that's not the end of the
(11:41):
story, right, it's.
It's it's a start of reclaiminga life and that's sort the end
of the story, right, it's astart of reclaiming a life and
that's sort of in that, you know, maybe more negative, abusive
relationship realm of thespectrum In terms of culturally.
Yeah, I think there's some workto do there as well, right?
(12:02):
You know we are so as humans,driven towards connection, right
, that is our survival, and sodivorce brings up this
vulnerability.
Right that, if we lose thisconnection, what does this mean
about what we're worth?
Right?
(12:23):
Are we lovable?
Right?
Have we become unlovable?
Right?
And so all of that, I think, iswrapped up in this idea that
divorce is some sort of failure,right that we're not good at
relationships, so no one's goingto love me again.
And you know, on the extremeend, I've heard clients say
(12:45):
things like you know, I'm goingto die alone.
Right, it's really painful, butit's also so deeply human,
right, that is something that wefear, because that goes against
our survival.
That's not optimal for us.
So, you know, in some ways Ilike to shift it to you know,
(13:06):
well, who are we becoming now?
Right?
There's so much left on thisjourney, right?
So who are we becoming now?
Right?
How did I honor myself in thisprocess?
Right?
How can I still honor myself?
And that's the self-compassionpiece, right, right at the end,
(13:29):
right?
Cary Jacobson (13:30):
absolutely.
It's just the beginning of anew chapter, yeah, but I imagine
that grieving and I think youmentioned this before really
does happen during divorce, notjust for the, but just for the
idea of the version of the youknow, the life that we thought
(13:51):
we were going to have.
Right, how do you help clientsprocess that loss?
Dr. Emma Mansour (13:58):
Yeah, it's really slow at first.
So there's a lot of impatiencethat I that I see show up, right
.
Well, why is this not happeningfast enough?
In fact, you know it'sinteresting the statistics on
how men and women sort ofprocess post-divorce tells us
that, you know, men are morelikely to jump faster or earlier
(14:21):
into the dating pool than womenare.
And I think this is what'striggering that right, sort of
like we've got to move past thisfaster.
Right, I'm supposed to be donewith this part, right.
And again, it's that connectionpiece.
We're driven to connection, sowe're going to go find it
somewhere else.
Women tend to not want to dothat.
They're a little more reticent,like, oh, this was really hard,
(14:46):
um, so it's very slow.
But growth, I think, ispossible and I think it starts
with self-trust.
That's where I like to startwith people right, so they've
spent so much time in fear anddoubt.
But getting back to trust, nottrust of others that's a big one
in divorce.
Like, how do I trust arelationship again?
(15:07):
How do we trust yourself, right, that you can make good
decisions, right, you can honoryour boundaries.
Right, that you can find joy?
You know that that's somethingthat you can create a
relationship that brings you joyRight.
(15:32):
That you deserve to be happy,yeah, that you can find someone
you want to meet.
Right, that you can be alone.
I mean, a lot of the work isspent just figuring out how to
enjoy being alone.
Right, that you can think aboutwalking up to your house and
(15:54):
there's nobody there, butactually feel excited to do that
at the end of the day.
Right, that's part of healingtoo, right, like, yeah, there's
no one there, but I really wantto be home and then that kind of
goes into that self-compassion.
Cary Jacobson (16:17):
What role does self-compassion and mental
health practices play in healingafter divorce, especially if
for those people who do feellike they've lost themselves in
the process?
Dr. Emma Mansour (16:33):
Yeah, I think self-compassion is just not
negotiable in this process.
It really allows you to Idescribe it to people as it
allows you to treat yourself assomeone worth caring for, and a
lot of times in the divorceprocess, if it's messy, caring
for yourself has taken thebackseat, right.
(16:54):
So how do you care for yourself, even when you're at your
lowest right, where you feellike you got no resources left?
And so it really is anon-negotiable.
You know, and in some ways youhave to.
You know it's a relationshipit's taken two of you to create,
(17:16):
and probably two of you havecontributed in some way to the
pain.
And so how do you doself-compassion?
I hear people say, well, how canI be compassionate to myself
when I know, right, that in someways I can see how I've
contributed to the pain in therelationship?
You absolutely can, right, youcan still hold yourself with
(17:37):
kindness Right and and work togrow in the areas where you
needed some work.
Right, that's still possible.
You were doing your best.
Right, you didn't know somethings.
Right, that was still possible.
You were doing your best.
Right, you didn't know somethings.
Right, you made some mistakesalong the way.
Right, it's life.
We do that, so we can stillacknowledge harm and have a
(17:58):
capacity to grow, and that isself-compassion, right?
So maybe you speak to yourselfmore kindly, more gently, right?
Maybe you are in therapy andyou're meeting with a counselor
that's self-compassion.
Maybe it's being more mindfulof your relationships you have
(18:21):
around you still, and how youfoster those.
You know, I like the classicquestion of you know what would
you say to a friend still, andhow you foster those.
You know I like the classicquestion of you know what would
you say to a friend?
Yep, I was just thinking that,yeah, you probably wouldn't be
like yeah no one should ever bewith you.
Don't say it to yourself.
(18:41):
Yeah, yeah, so there's somepretty good work out there by
the author is Kristen Neff.
She's probably the main personwho speaks on self-compassion.
Cary Jacobson (19:06):
And she'll talk a lot on on, for your work is
bringing culturally informedlens.
How can culture and upbringingshape the way someone may
experience divorce or emotionaltransitions?
Dr. Emma Mansour (19:22):
Yeah, so by culture I mean you know culture
in terms of you know race andethnicity.
So I think it's alwaysimportant to understand what
divorce means culturally.
So there are some cultureswhere this is quite harmful to
(19:43):
reputation and has quite longlasting effects on what is
possible for the person in theirsort of future.
So when talking aboutempowerment, it is really
important to know what'spossible and what restraints
they actually have.
You know, culture can also bereligion, right.
(20:04):
So there are some religiousconstraints or sort of
restrictions placed on what'spossible with divorce or what
that does mean for a person.
So I'm in Utah, so for us it'sthe LDS faith and that has some
pretty interesting implicationsfor people.
And then, interestingly enough,and quite recently I think,
(20:26):
culture is also age.
So there's an increase in, youknow, sort of that divorce in
sort of the latter years of life, and that's really interesting
in the therapy room because thathas implications that in the
younger years maybe are not asimportant.
(20:48):
So what do we do with, you know, health care, right, and
disease and sort of?
You know it's not am I going todie alone, but like who's going
to take care of me if I getreally sick here, right, right,
and we had planned, you know,this type type of retirement,
and now I don't know what to do.
Um, and and that's really thatcan be really scary absolutely a
(21:14):
different type of fear thatenters the room at that point.
So it's yeah, it's a lot, it'sa lot of things um culture isn't
just, you know race andethnicity.
It's sort of what context doyour clients exist in and what
pressures are those placing onthem in terms of what the
(21:34):
fallout could be of making thisdecision Right?
Cary Jacobson (21:42):
Yeah, there's so many things that definitely
impact how people are going tokind of perceive divorce in the
first place and also kind ofexperience it based on their
culture.
Yeah, I always like to hear youknow some success stories.
Can you share with ourlisteners an anonymous story
(22:07):
where you've worked with aclient who has transformed
through this process and foundstrength or clarity that maybe
they didn't really expect?
Dr. Emma Mansour (22:18):
Oh, there's so many.
There really is.
You know, my.
The ones I really enjoy are arethe people who, the clients who
go back to school going to haveany money Right, then they,
(22:49):
they do, they, they.
They find a job that they neverthought they'd like and they,
they flourish in it.
Right, and they find strengthand they are great leaders and
they make it and they have moremoney than they thought would
ever be possible.
Right, they're clients who, um,you know, all of a sudden get to
(23:12):
decorate their house the waythey want it and they love it
and it's their sanctuary, andthey, they don't even you can't
even imagine what their oldplace was, right, yeah, they're
clients who find newrelationships and they're
(23:33):
they've never been happier,right, yeah, and they wish they
had met those people sooner,because now they've got less
time with them and they just putsmiles on your faces.
It's a joy to watch and as atherapist, it's really hard,
(23:53):
because when you meet them attheir lowest point, you really
just want to say this stupidthing like it all gets better,
yeah, but you know that that'sdumb and you can't say that.
But I'll say it now it reallycan get better, yeah, and have
(24:13):
faith and with the right support, it it will.
Yeah, and and you know I'll say, look back at all the times in
your life where things have feltreally terrible, not lasted.
Cary Jacobson (24:25):
Right.
I see it so often in likeFacebook groups, you know, maybe
local groups or specialtydivorce groups, people who are
at that beginning stage and somany women come in and support
and talk about.
You know how great um thingsare now on the other side, right
(24:47):
, like they never thought thatthey were going to be in that
place and now they'reflourishing and they are so much
happier.
But it does take that work.
But you know, if you had askedthem months or even years ago,
(25:07):
would they have expected that tohappen, and not necessarily,
but you know it is.
It is nice to see that support,letting them know others know
that there is possibility outthere.
Dr. Emma Mansour (25:16):
Yeah, there will be a big chunk of time
where it won't feel possible,but that does not mean that it
isn't yeah.
Cary Jacobson (25:24):
Yeah, well, before we wrap up, what's one
piece of advice that you wouldgive someone who might be
listening, um, that's in theemotional fog of divorce and
doesn't know how to move forward?
Dr. Emma Mansour (25:39):
Yeah, I would say, um, divorce is never easy,
but it doesn't have to be theend of the story.
It's.
It's very often presented asthe end of the story, but it is
not.
And get the right support.
The right support is going tobe crucial.
(26:01):
Get the support that's going tobuild in the self-compassion
piece, that's going to build inthe space to rediscover who you
are, and it can be the beginningof something really meaningful.
Um, and it can be really hardto focus on yourself, though,
(26:24):
right, like, the pull is real,especially if you have children.
This isn't about me, this isabout the kids, and that is so
true, um, and there's a part ofthis that has to be about you,
right.
So healing is possible, notbecause everything becomes
perfect Do you want to say thatbut because you do get a greater
(26:48):
sense of what's true for you.
But find the support.
It is really crucial.
Cary Jacobson (27:02):
Absolutely Well, Dr Emma Mansoor, thank you so
much for being with us today.
Can you let our listeners knowhow they can find out more about
you and the services that youprovide?
Dr. Emma Mansour (27:10):
Yes, so unfortunately I can't provide
services outside of the state ofUtah, but if you are in Utah
you can go to our website it iswwwlifematterpsychcom, or you
can give our offices a call.
It's 385-219-4980.
Cary Jacobson (27:33):
Awesome and we'll be sure to put that link in the
show notes.
And for all of you who arelistening, be sure to check out
her website so that you canlearn more about the services
that she can provide or you knowmore information.
And if you're going throughdivorce and you need legal help
to move forward with clarity andpeace of mind and you happen to
be in Maryland, be sure tocheck out our website, which is
(27:56):
JacobsonFamilyLaw.
com, to schedule a consultation.
Thanks for tuning in to DivorceDiaries Lessons from the
Trenches.
Be sure to give us a follow,leave us a review and share this
episode with someone who mightneed it.
Have a great day.
Intro/Close (28:13):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
divorce diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
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