July 15, 2025 • 28 mins
Attorney and mediator, Cary Jacobson is joined by divorce coach Jill Kaufman to tackle one of the most challenging aspects of family separation—co-parenting with high-conflict ex-spouses or narcissistic personalities. Drawing from her own difficult divorce experience and professional expertise as a therapist, Kaufman shares transformative strategies that can revolutionize even the most strained co-parenting relationships.
Discover practical techniques like deep abdominal breathing to regulate emotions during triggering interactions and learn how setting thoughtful boundaries can transform your co-parenting experience. Ready for more support? Visit divorcecoachjill.com for resources designed to help you navigate this challenging journey with greater confidence and peace.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to learn more.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jill Kaufman (00:00):
when I talk to people about their relationship
with their soon to be ex, theyreally have to do a shift
because they've been married tothis person for an amount of
time and the relationship isvery different.
It is you have to reallycompromise with each other and
you have to care about eachother's feelings and show
empathy and really be thesupport for each other, and
(00:25):
that's not what the relationshipis when you're going through
divorce.
Intro/Close (00:31):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where Cary Jacobson
brings you real stories, hardtruths and practical advice on
navigating divorce and familylaw.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:53):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson.
I'm an attorney, mediator andfounder of Jacobson Family Law,
where we help clients keep thedrama out of divorce.
Founder of Jacobson Family Law,where we help clients keep the
drama out of divorce.
Today's episode is all aboutthe most emotionally training
(01:13):
complex situations manydivorcing parents may face how
do you co -parent with someonewho's high conflict or might
even be a narcissist?
And to help us unpack thisincredibly important topic, I'm
joined by someone who truly getsit, not just professionally but
also personally.
Jill Kaufman is a divorce coach,a therapist, a mediator and a
co-parenting expert.
After going through her owndifficult divorce, she made it
(01:35):
her mission to help othersnavigate the process with more
clarity, less stress and agreater sense of peace.
She's the author of a fantasticbook, a creator of a powerful
online course and works withparents in her transformational
coaching program.
Jill is passionate abouthelping families, especially
children, thrive even in themiddle of conflict.
(01:57):
Thank you so much, jill, forbeing here.
Jill Kaufman (02:00):
Thank you, Cary, for having me
Cary Jacobson (02:02):
Absolutely.
Can we start with your story?
I understand that you've beenthrough a high conflict divorce
yourself.
How did that experience impactthe work that you do now?
Jill Kaufman (02:15):
Well, so I was a therapist and I thought I could
handle it emotionally goingthrough divorce, and little did
I know that it is very differentwhen you're counseling people
than when you're going throughit yourself.
And so I couldn't eat, Icouldn't sleep, I, you know, I
(02:38):
was barely functioning.
I had three, you know, children, 18 and 18, 16 and 12.
And it was, it was reallyoverwhelming.
And you know, my relationshipwith my now ex-husband was not
great.
I mean, I think most people,when they're going through
divorce, struggle with that.
(02:59):
You're living in the same houseand it's it's very difficult,
but I, I the positive is we dohave a very good relationship
now.
Um, this is years later and youknow it happened a couple of
years after the divorce.
And so you know, even if you dohave a high conflict divorce,
you can change um during thedivorce or or after the divorce,
(03:23):
um, and you can change therelationship.
And there are things that youcan do to make things better,
which I didn't really know backthen.
But I've worked with tons ofpeople now and it really does
work.
Cary Jacobson (03:35):
Yeah, you mentioned that, even though you
were, you are or were atherapist, how did that help or
hinder how you you know, kind ofwent through the process
yourself?
Jill Kaufman (03:50):
Well, luckily I was in therapy my own therapist
and that helped, but I think italso I was able.
During my divorce we weretrying to come to agreements
that you know it was a mess andwe couldn't.
We we did this like full daymediation with both in separate
rooms, with us going back andforth, and after that I really
(04:13):
started detaching myself fromthe emotions and I started to
think about, okay, how theremust be a better way.
I don't want to go to court.
There must be a better way toget to a solution here.
And I actually figured it outwith you know, because I knew my
ex better than my attorney didand I knew what was important to
(04:35):
him and I knew what wasimportant to me.
And so I just went to him afterthat day and I said you know
what?
I will agree to everything thatyou want if you give me this.
And there was just one thingthat I wanted.
And he said okay, and we toldour attorneys and we signed the
agreement and that was the endof it.
Cary Jacobson (04:56):
And so I think maybe being a therapist helped
me kind of know that I was tooemotional and I needed to think
clearly helped me kind of knowthat I was too emotional and I
needed to think clearly yeah,and when you're working with
clients because I know that youare also a divorce coach how do
(05:20):
you kind of guide them inkeeping those emotions in check?
Jill Kaufman (05:22):
so that they can kind of do that same process.
Well, it's easy as a therapist,it's easy for me to to
recognize when somebody ismaking emotional decisions, also
because I've been through itand so I I very gently point
that out and and I don't pointout you know you're making an
emotional decision I just askthem is this really worth it to
(05:43):
you?
You know, like what is reallyworth it?
And so we really get down toand sometimes they don't know at
first.
You know they're like yeah, ofcourse it's worth it to me to
stay in the house because Idon't want, you know, the kids
to go through an upheaval and so, or something like that, and we
(06:04):
kind of break it down.
And what are you worried about?
You know, why do you think yourchildren won't be able to to be
OK if you sell the house?
Or, you know, is, how do Ico-parent with someone who just
wants to fight?
Cary Jacobson (06:31):
You know someone who may send the you know
multi-paragraph text message oremail and so much of it is just
bashing that person and notreally an actual issue.
Or there might be just a coupleof you know small issues in
there with all of this, theseother things.
(06:53):
How do you talk to your clientsabout dealing with that
situation?
Jill Kaufman (06:58):
Great question, I so.
I mean it happens all the time.
People are anxious and fearfulthat you know, financially
they're going not to be okay andthere's so many things going on
, are they going to have enoughtime with their children and are
they going to have a goodrelationship with their children
?
So, basically, when I talk topeople about their relationship
(07:25):
with their soon-to-be ex, theyreally have to do a shift
because they've been married tothis person for an amount of
time and the relationship isvery different.
You have to really compromisewith each other and you have to
care about each other's feelingsand show empathy and really be
(07:46):
a support for each other.
And that's not what therelationship is when you're
going through divorce.
It's completely different.
It's like being colleagues orcoworkers and you really don't
have to care about all thethings that they feel and
compromise about everything.
You can set boundaries.
You can set boundaries and youcan set them.
(08:07):
Like if you were talking to acolleague or coworker, would you
make a wise guy comment orwould you be sarcastic?
No, you would be verystraightforward, kind, friendly,
but also set some boundaries.
And that's the shift thatpeople have to make so that they
can really take the emotion outof it.
(08:28):
The past is the past and youreally shouldn't talk about the
past anymore.
You should talk about what youneed today and going forward,
and so, if you can make thatshift, it makes it a lot easier
to interact.
The other thing is I don't know.
You know Bill Eddy, right, I amvery familiar.
(08:50):
Everybody who works with highconflict divorces knows Bill
Eddy.
But he has the BIF method andyou want to be brief,
informative, friendly and firm,and so anytime you email or text
anybody, or even when you talkto them, you don't want to go
off on tangents and say, well, Ireally think that this is the
best thing for our daughter.
(09:11):
You know she's, you knowwhatever it is you're.
You don't want to give your howyou feel, because that's not
really relevant anymore.
You just want to talk about thefacts and you want to make it
as brief as you can and you wantto set some boundaries.
So there's a lot of tools youcan use, but the biggest thing
is that shift in mindset frombeing a married couple to being
(09:36):
co-parents and like colleagues.
Cary Jacobson (09:38):
Right and just reminding yourself that you
don't have to always respondright away.
I think that's one, especiallyin our, you know, tech world
people.
People kind of think that justbecause they've gotten a message
or an email or what have you,that they have to respond right
away.
(09:58):
And you know, I often tellpeople, you know, you can set
those boundaries as well, unless, unless you can, you know,
unless it's an emergency, youcan say I'm not going to respond
outside of you know, until I'mout of work hours or, you know,
in certain times of day and thatsort of thing, just so that you
it doesn't have to impact youdirectly as much, right?
Jill Kaufman (10:22):
yeah, exactly, and you know you can set your phone
to not give you messages whileyou're at work.
And and if you could tell yoursoon to be ex that if it's an
emergency, call me, you know,because I can't look at texts or
emails during work hours.
You know, and you want to saythat in a friendly way to you
know, so that they don't itdoesn't trigger some kind of
(10:45):
argument.
Cary Jacobson (10:46):
Right yeah of argument, right yeah.
Now I've heard of the termparallel parenting and I know
that this has come up, you knowsometimes, and I want to talk
about that a little bit.
Can you explain what parallelparenting is and when it may be
a better option than traditionalco-parenting?
Jill Kaufman (11:12):
be a better option than traditional co-parenting,
right?
So co-parenting is when youboth together come to an
agreement on the rules and howyou're going to parent your
children and you listen to eachother and you try to work
together for solutions.
Sometimes that's not possibleif you have a co-parent who is
not interested in doing that, sothen you would need to parallel
(11:33):
parent, and parallel parentingis basically you're doing
something in your home andthey're doing something in their
home and you're just notcommunicating about that and
you're basically havingdifferent rules in each house
and you parent differently.
And while that's not ideal,children can be OK with that.
(11:55):
Children understand that theirparents are different and there
could be different rules.
I mean, they know there'sdifferent rules at school than
there are at home, so, like theyunderstand that it's not so bad
for kids.
I mean, of course it's betterto have a really you know,
collaborative relationship andwork together, because they do
(12:16):
sense tension in therelationship and that's not good
for kids.
But if you can't, then youreally you can't control someone
else, right?
So you have to.
You have to do what you have todo.
Cary Jacobson (12:28):
What's a scenario where parallel parenting might
be appropriate Like?
Under?
What are those circumstances?
Jill Kaufman (12:35):
So if, let's say, you have children who need to
get to bed by like 830 becausethey need a lot of sleep and
they're young and they have tobe awake for school in the
morning, and your co-parent says, well, I don't get home until
730.
So I'm not going to put them tosleep at 830.
It's not enough time for me.
I'm going to put them to bed at930.
(12:56):
And you know that that's notgood for your children, and so
you put them to bed at 830.
And that's OK and you can justexplain that.
Cary Jacobson (13:06):
You know I've had more time with you
no-transcript and this is theway it is Okay, Got it.
(13:34):
Obviously, conflict between theparents can impact children.
What are some ways that parentscan protect their kids from you
know those emotions that comeup during the divorce and
protect their kids from thatconflict?
Jill Kaufman (13:48):
Oh, there's, there's a lot of ways Now.
First of all, you get so caughtup in the divorce that you
focus on the divorce instead offocusing on your children.
Right, you're like I have tospend time, you know, going
through my financials and Ican't, you know, focus on them.
Well, the bottom line is kidsneed your attention, even when
(14:09):
you're going through divorce, sothey're not going to understand
that you have lots of otherthings to do, so maybe you have
to put off, you know, doing somethings because your kids need
you, and that doesn't mean youcan't take breaks and you know
work on things that you knowthat are divorce related.
But make sure you're presentand in the moment with your
(14:31):
children and you're notdistracted when you're with them
thinking about your divorce.
And the only way to do that isto take care of yourself,
exercise, have a therapist,divorce coach, you know.
Have a team around you that youcan really trust so that you
don't have to worry, you know,about your divorce all the time.
The other thing is you don'twant to say anything negative
(14:52):
about the other parent, youdon't want to use your children
as messengers between you andthe other parent and you want to
support the child'srelationship with the other
parent, unless there's abuse.
A child does better havingrelationships with both parents,
and so whatever you can do tosupport that relationship.
(15:15):
Now let's say a child comes toyou and says I'm really upset
because you know dad won't letme do this, and when he says
that I get very upset, youshouldn't be the one to go then
and tell the parent.
What you should do is tell thechild well, it sounds like
you're really upset.
You need to talk to dad aboutthat, and so what you're doing
(15:38):
is you're empowering your childto set boundaries themselves and
learn how to manage therelationship between them and
the other parent.
If you get involved, it'scalled triangulation and it's
not healthy.
It's not a healthy dynamic infamilies.
So you really want to encouragethe child to talk directly to
the parent.
Cary Jacobson (15:57):
And it also gives them a place, the empowerment
to, to share what their feelingsare with that parent and how
those feelings are impactingthem.
Jill Kaufman (16:07):
Exactly, and that's really important that you
know you didn't.
You didn't then get upset andstart a fight, and then the
child feels like, oh, it's myfault that my parents are
fighting.
So all of that is not ideal.
You really want to.
You want to step out of thatrelationship between the parent
(16:28):
and the child.
Cary Jacobson (16:29):
Now, does that potentially change if that child
may be fearful of how thatparent may react to those
feelings?
You know, maybe, that the otherparent is not as emotionally
supportive, right?
Because not both parents aren'tnecessarily the same when it
comes to supporting a child'semotions.
(16:51):
How would your advice, if it,would it change at all, in that
scenario?
Jill Kaufman (16:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think if they express that
they're scared to talk to theother parent, I would, I mean,
as a therapist, I would say whatare you scared of?
You know?
But really you can get atherapist involved and you can
have the child talk to thetherapist about that if you
aren't able to handle that.
But if you can, you can ask thechild you know, what are you
(17:18):
scared of?
Well, you know, mom might getmad if I say that.
Well, so what?
What if mom gets mad?
What's frightening about that?
Well, I don't like it when shegets mad.
What's frightening about that?
Well, I don't like it when shegets mad, you know.
If they say, you know she yellsat me, well then you can tell
her not, please don't yell.
You know, like you want toreally help children handle this
(17:42):
on their own and it's amazinghow they can.
They can get really empoweredwhen they confront a parent and
set some boundaries, set healthyboundaries.
And you know, I've seen ithappen where a parent changes,
you know, and they, once thechild, you know, says please
(18:03):
don't yell at me.
They're, they're realizing thatyou know, this child is not
going to want to come here ifI'm yelling, you know, and I
really have to protect myrelationship with them and I've
seen really positive thingshappen after that.
Cary Jacobson (18:20):
Yeah, what are some early signs that someone
may be divorcing someone who isa narcissist I feel like I hear
that term all the time, so I'mcautionary in using it or
someone that's just a highconflict person?
And is there something thatthose people should do to
(18:41):
prepare differently for thedivorce process?
Jill Kaufman (18:44):
Well, it depends.
I think there's a strategy.
When you're divorcing someonewho's a high conflict person,
whether they're narcissistic ornot, it's pretty much similar
behavior.
There's a strategy because youdon't want to trigger that
person.
And a lot of times, you knowattorneys are very useful but a
(19:05):
lot of times attorneys don'trealize their wording triggers
other people you know,especially high conflict people,
and so you want to make surethat you, you have an attorney
who's who's knowledgeable on howto interact and communicate
with a high conflict person.
And you want to say things invery subtle ways.
(19:28):
So you don't want to say youknow you've been late every time
you come to pick up Sally, andthat's poor parenting.
You want to say could youplease let me know if you're
going to be late and don't bemore than a couple minutes late,
because she you know Sally getsreally worried when you're not
(19:51):
there.
And so you really want to benon-threatening.
And most people know they have ahigh conflict person they're
dealing with because they weremarried to them.
Right, and they aren't easy,they're difficult, and so you
know, to prepare for it you youreally have to work on taking
(20:13):
the emotions out of it, becauseif you were married to that
person and it was a highconflict person.
You have a lot of built upanger, maybe in resentment or
your fear about dealing withthem.
A lot of times I get clientswho don't want to be in the same
room with them.
I get clients who don't want tobe in the same room with them
(20:35):
with a mediator, and they don'trealize that you know, when
you're married you're reallykind of stuck living with
someone.
When you're divorcing, you havea lot more.
You're more empowered if you'redealing with a narcissist or a
high conflict person becausethere are laws in place to
protect you and, yes, they canmake it more difficult, but at
some point they can't, you know.
Cary Jacobson (20:56):
Yeah, there's going to be.
There's going to be an end ofsome sort.
Jill Kaufman (20:59):
Right, exactly.
And if you have to go to trial,the judge will, you know, will
rule probably in your favor.
And and I think that's thestrategy too you want to really
talk to the talk to the attorneyand the mediator about like
this is going to be.
I'm going to make a better dealthan if we went to court.
(21:21):
So to avoid that, to avoidavoid going to court, you know
this is going to be better foreverybody.
Cary Jacobson (21:30):
Absolutely.
I know you have a coachingprogram and that in that program
you talk about reducing stressand increasing, you know, the
individual's confidence.
What is one small mindset shiftor tool that you people can
make to make a big difference inhow someone is feeling, you
(21:52):
know, just overwhelmed by thedivorce process?
Jill Kaufman (21:56):
Well, this sounds really simple, but there's deep
abdominal breathing and if youdo it right, you breathe in and
you actually push your stomachout when you're breathing in so
that you can get a really deep,deep breath.
And you pull your stomach inwhen you breathe out and as you
(22:19):
do this, more and more yourlungs expand and you're able to
get these really deep breaths.
Like I always tell people, ifthey put their hand on their
chest and their chest is goingup, that's a chest breath, but
if you put your hand on yourstomach and your stomach's going
out, that's an abdominal breath.
And so when you get these deepbreaths, your brain actually
(22:42):
releases a hormone that calmsyou.
And if you practice this beforeyou go to sleep, when you wake
up in the morning, you actuallyexpand the surface area of your
lungs and you can learn how todo these deep breaths anytime.
So if you're talking or you geta text from your soon to be ex,
(23:04):
you can do these deep breathsand you can really get yourself
more calm.
And that's the key we'retriggered.
We're triggered and our bloodstarts pumping and our heart
starts racing.
And your amygdala is the baseof your brain, your prefrontal
cortex is the thinking part andthat thinking part shuts off.
(23:26):
So your own, you can't reallythink through how you're going
to respond and your base of yourbrain is really just fight or
flight and you can't really umhandle all the things you need
to handle when you're goingthrough this process.
If that's the only thing youcan do, fight or run away.
So you really have to learntechniques like deep breathing.
(23:46):
There's meditations, there'slots of things like that to get
yourself calm.
Even drinking a glass of water,you know, is something that
will give you some pause so thatyou don't respond right away.
Cary Jacobson (24:00):
Yeah, and exactly I was just thinking that as
well.
Take a moment to to, you know,think about it, to calm yourself
down and then respond.
I think you know, setting thoseboundaries again about how much
time you're going to wait torespond can also, you know,
greatly improve your emotionalbandwidth of you know when
(24:25):
responding.
Jill Kaufman (24:27):
Absolutely, and you you're not going to respond
in the best way if you respondright away.
So it's much better to thinkthrough how you want to respond
or if you even need to respond.
Cary Jacobson (24:38):
Yeah, and then you know the other thing that
can also help.
I'm a huge person like of usingtechnology where it can be
appropriate.
If you're using co-parentingapps, some of them have like a
tone, check um or chat, tpt.
You know any of any AI thing.
You can put in the, thequestion or the text or the, you
(25:00):
know whatever it is, and sayhelp me respond in a simple,
professional manner.
And it takes some of thatemotion out of it because you're
not the one like it.
Jill Kaufman (25:11):
Yes, absolutely.
Chatgpt is amazing for this andit, just when you do that and
you read it back, it changesyour, it shifts your mindset, so
that you're thinking and you'renot reacting.
Cary Jacobson (25:24):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about your book and
the course that you teach orthat you have available to your
clients.
What can our listeners expectand who are they best suited for
?
Jill Kaufman (25:39):
So the book and the course, they kind of
parallel each other, but it'sreally for people who are going
through divorce, for parents whoare going through divorce.
So, from the point of like,when you're almost ready to make
that step, until the divorce isover, it goes into how to
handle your emotions, how todevelop your clarity around your
(26:03):
goals and priorities and how tonegotiate your settlement
agreement, and it also hasinformation on you know how to
deal with your finances andbudgets and what information to
collect and I have a ton ofinformation in there.
And if people are really goodat doing it on their own, they
(26:25):
can.
They can do that with the bookor the online course.
If not, then they can join mygroup coaching program and you
can use the online course in thebook in addition to having me
facilitate them working throughthat.
Cary Jacobson (26:42):
Got it Awesome.
Those sound like greatresources for anyone who may be
going through the divorceprocess.
Jill Kaufman (26:49):
Yeah, there's a lot there.
Cary Jacobson (26:51):
Yeah Well, jill, thanks so much for sharing your
wisdom, your practical tips, andthey are exactly what so many
of our listeners need right now.
If you listeners are goingthrough a divorce or struggling
to co-parent with a highconflict ex, I highly encourage
you to check out Jill's work.
You can find her book, onlinecourse and coaching program at
her website, divorcecoachjill.
(27:13):
com.
As always, thanks for tuning into Divorce Diaries and don't
forget to subscribe, leave areview and share this episode
with a friend who might need it.
And if you're looking for legalsupport for your own peaceful
divorce or custody process,check out our website at
JacobsonFamilyLaw.
com.
Intro/Close (27:35):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember, every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
No-transcript.
when I talk to people about their relationship
with their soon to be ex, theyreally have to do a shift
because they've been married tothis person for an amount of
time and the relationship isvery different.
It is you have to reallycompromise with each other and
you have to care about eachother's feelings and show
empathy and really be thesupport for each other, and
(00:25):
that's not what the relationshipis when you're going through
divorce.
Intro/Close (00:31):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where Cary Jacobson
brings you real stories, hardtruths and practical advice on
navigating divorce and familylaw.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:53):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson.
I'm an attorney, mediator andfounder of Jacobson Family Law,
where we help clients keep thedrama out of divorce.
Founder of Jacobson Family Law,where we help clients keep the
drama out of divorce.
Today's episode is all aboutthe most emotionally training
(01:13):
complex situations manydivorcing parents may face how
do you co -parent with someonewho's high conflict or might
even be a narcissist?
And to help us unpack thisincredibly important topic, I'm
joined by someone who truly getsit, not just professionally but
also personally.
Jill Kaufman is a divorce coach,a therapist, a mediator and a
co-parenting expert.
After going through her owndifficult divorce, she made it
(01:35):
her mission to help othersnavigate the process with more
clarity, less stress and agreater sense of peace.
She's the author of a fantasticbook, a creator of a powerful
online course and works withparents in her transformational
coaching program.
Jill is passionate abouthelping families, especially
children, thrive even in themiddle of conflict.
(01:57):
Thank you so much, jill, forbeing here.
Jill Kaufman (02:00):
Thank you, Cary, for having me
Cary Jacobson (02:02):
Absolutely.
Can we start with your story?
I understand that you've beenthrough a high conflict divorce
yourself.
How did that experience impactthe work that you do now?
Jill Kaufman (02:15):
Well, so I was a therapist and I thought I could
handle it emotionally goingthrough divorce, and little did
I know that it is very differentwhen you're counseling people
than when you're going throughit yourself.
And so I couldn't eat, Icouldn't sleep, I, you know, I
(02:38):
was barely functioning.
I had three, you know, children, 18 and 18, 16 and 12.
And it was, it was reallyoverwhelming.
And you know, my relationshipwith my now ex-husband was not
great.
I mean, I think most people,when they're going through
divorce, struggle with that.
(02:59):
You're living in the same houseand it's it's very difficult,
but I, I the positive is we dohave a very good relationship
now.
Um, this is years later and youknow it happened a couple of
years after the divorce.
And so you know, even if you dohave a high conflict divorce,
you can change um during thedivorce or or after the divorce,
(03:23):
um, and you can change therelationship.
And there are things that youcan do to make things better,
which I didn't really know backthen.
But I've worked with tons ofpeople now and it really does
work.
Cary Jacobson (03:35):
Yeah, you mentioned that, even though you
were, you are or were atherapist, how did that help or
hinder how you you know, kind ofwent through the process
yourself?
Jill Kaufman (03:50):
Well, luckily I was in therapy my own therapist
and that helped, but I think italso I was able.
During my divorce we weretrying to come to agreements
that you know it was a mess andwe couldn't.
We we did this like full daymediation with both in separate
rooms, with us going back andforth, and after that I really
(04:13):
started detaching myself fromthe emotions and I started to
think about, okay, how theremust be a better way.
I don't want to go to court.
There must be a better way toget to a solution here.
And I actually figured it outwith you know, because I knew my
ex better than my attorney didand I knew what was important to
(04:35):
him and I knew what wasimportant to me.
And so I just went to him afterthat day and I said you know
what?
I will agree to everything thatyou want if you give me this.
And there was just one thingthat I wanted.
And he said okay, and we toldour attorneys and we signed the
agreement and that was the endof it.
Cary Jacobson (04:56):
And so I think maybe being a therapist helped
me kind of know that I was tooemotional and I needed to think
clearly helped me kind of knowthat I was too emotional and I
needed to think clearly yeah,and when you're working with
clients because I know that youare also a divorce coach how do
(05:20):
you kind of guide them inkeeping those emotions in check?
Jill Kaufman (05:22):
so that they can kind of do that same process.
Well, it's easy as a therapist,it's easy for me to to
recognize when somebody ismaking emotional decisions, also
because I've been through itand so I I very gently point
that out and and I don't pointout you know you're making an
emotional decision I just askthem is this really worth it to
(05:43):
you?
You know, like what is reallyworth it?
And so we really get down toand sometimes they don't know at
first.
You know they're like yeah, ofcourse it's worth it to me to
stay in the house because Idon't want, you know, the kids
to go through an upheaval and so, or something like that, and we
(06:04):
kind of break it down.
And what are you worried about?
You know, why do you think yourchildren won't be able to to be
OK if you sell the house?
Or, you know, is, how do Ico-parent with someone who just
wants to fight?
Cary Jacobson (06:31):
You know someone who may send the you know
multi-paragraph text message oremail and so much of it is just
bashing that person and notreally an actual issue.
Or there might be just a coupleof you know small issues in
there with all of this, theseother things.
(06:53):
How do you talk to your clientsabout dealing with that
situation?
Jill Kaufman (06:58):
Great question, I so.
I mean it happens all the time.
People are anxious and fearfulthat you know, financially
they're going not to be okay andthere's so many things going on
, are they going to have enoughtime with their children and are
they going to have a goodrelationship with their children
?
So, basically, when I talk topeople about their relationship
(07:25):
with their soon-to-be ex, theyreally have to do a shift
because they've been married tothis person for an amount of
time and the relationship isvery different.
You have to really compromisewith each other and you have to
care about each other's feelingsand show empathy and really be
(07:46):
a support for each other.
And that's not what therelationship is when you're
going through divorce.
It's completely different.
It's like being colleagues orcoworkers and you really don't
have to care about all thethings that they feel and
compromise about everything.
You can set boundaries.
You can set boundaries and youcan set them.
(08:07):
Like if you were talking to acolleague or coworker, would you
make a wise guy comment orwould you be sarcastic?
No, you would be verystraightforward, kind, friendly,
but also set some boundaries.
And that's the shift thatpeople have to make so that they
can really take the emotion outof it.
(08:28):
The past is the past and youreally shouldn't talk about the
past anymore.
You should talk about what youneed today and going forward,
and so, if you can make thatshift, it makes it a lot easier
to interact.
The other thing is I don't know.
You know Bill Eddy, right, I amvery familiar.
(08:50):
Everybody who works with highconflict divorces knows Bill
Eddy.
But he has the BIF method andyou want to be brief,
informative, friendly and firm,and so anytime you email or text
anybody, or even when you talkto them, you don't want to go
off on tangents and say, well, Ireally think that this is the
best thing for our daughter.
(09:11):
You know she's, you knowwhatever it is you're.
You don't want to give your howyou feel, because that's not
really relevant anymore.
You just want to talk about thefacts and you want to make it
as brief as you can and you wantto set some boundaries.
So there's a lot of tools youcan use, but the biggest thing
is that shift in mindset frombeing a married couple to being
(09:36):
co-parents and like colleagues.
Cary Jacobson (09:38):
Right and just reminding yourself that you
don't have to always respondright away.
I think that's one, especiallyin our, you know, tech world
people.
People kind of think that justbecause they've gotten a message
or an email or what have you,that they have to respond right
away.
(09:58):
And you know, I often tellpeople, you know, you can set
those boundaries as well, unless, unless you can, you know,
unless it's an emergency, youcan say I'm not going to respond
outside of you know, until I'mout of work hours or, you know,
in certain times of day and thatsort of thing, just so that you
it doesn't have to impact youdirectly as much, right?
Jill Kaufman (10:22):
yeah, exactly, and you know you can set your phone
to not give you messages whileyou're at work.
And and if you could tell yoursoon to be ex that if it's an
emergency, call me, you know,because I can't look at texts or
emails during work hours.
You know, and you want to saythat in a friendly way to you
know, so that they don't itdoesn't trigger some kind of
(10:45):
argument.
Cary Jacobson (10:46):
Right yeah of argument, right yeah.
Now I've heard of the termparallel parenting and I know
that this has come up, you knowsometimes, and I want to talk
about that a little bit.
Can you explain what parallelparenting is and when it may be
a better option than traditionalco-parenting?
Jill Kaufman (11:12):
be a better option than traditional co-parenting,
right?
So co-parenting is when youboth together come to an
agreement on the rules and howyou're going to parent your
children and you listen to eachother and you try to work
together for solutions.
Sometimes that's not possibleif you have a co-parent who is
not interested in doing that, sothen you would need to parallel
(11:33):
parent, and parallel parentingis basically you're doing
something in your home andthey're doing something in their
home and you're just notcommunicating about that and
you're basically havingdifferent rules in each house
and you parent differently.
And while that's not ideal,children can be OK with that.
(11:55):
Children understand that theirparents are different and there
could be different rules.
I mean, they know there'sdifferent rules at school than
there are at home, so, like theyunderstand that it's not so bad
for kids.
I mean, of course it's betterto have a really you know,
collaborative relationship andwork together, because they do
(12:16):
sense tension in therelationship and that's not good
for kids.
But if you can't, then youreally you can't control someone
else, right?
So you have to.
You have to do what you have todo.
Cary Jacobson (12:28):
What's a scenario where parallel parenting might
be appropriate Like?
Under?
What are those circumstances?
Jill Kaufman (12:35):
So if, let's say, you have children who need to
get to bed by like 830 becausethey need a lot of sleep and
they're young and they have tobe awake for school in the
morning, and your co-parent says, well, I don't get home until
730.
So I'm not going to put them tosleep at 830.
It's not enough time for me.
I'm going to put them to bed at930.
(12:56):
And you know that that's notgood for your children, and so
you put them to bed at 830.
And that's OK and you can justexplain that.
Cary Jacobson (13:06):
You know I've had more time with you
no-transcript and this is theway it is Okay, Got it.
(13:34):
Obviously, conflict between theparents can impact children.
What are some ways that parentscan protect their kids from you
know those emotions that comeup during the divorce and
protect their kids from thatconflict?
Jill Kaufman (13:48):
Oh, there's, there's a lot of ways Now.
First of all, you get so caughtup in the divorce that you
focus on the divorce instead offocusing on your children.
Right, you're like I have tospend time, you know, going
through my financials and Ican't, you know, focus on them.
Well, the bottom line is kidsneed your attention, even when
(14:09):
you're going through divorce, sothey're not going to understand
that you have lots of otherthings to do, so maybe you have
to put off, you know, doing somethings because your kids need
you, and that doesn't mean youcan't take breaks and you know
work on things that you knowthat are divorce related.
But make sure you're presentand in the moment with your
(14:31):
children and you're notdistracted when you're with them
thinking about your divorce.
And the only way to do that isto take care of yourself,
exercise, have a therapist,divorce coach, you know.
Have a team around you that youcan really trust so that you
don't have to worry, you know,about your divorce all the time.
The other thing is you don'twant to say anything negative
(14:52):
about the other parent, youdon't want to use your children
as messengers between you andthe other parent and you want to
support the child'srelationship with the other
parent, unless there's abuse.
A child does better havingrelationships with both parents,
and so whatever you can do tosupport that relationship.
(15:15):
Now let's say a child comes toyou and says I'm really upset
because you know dad won't letme do this, and when he says
that I get very upset, youshouldn't be the one to go then
and tell the parent.
What you should do is tell thechild well, it sounds like
you're really upset.
You need to talk to dad aboutthat, and so what you're doing
(15:38):
is you're empowering your childto set boundaries themselves and
learn how to manage therelationship between them and
the other parent.
If you get involved, it'scalled triangulation and it's
not healthy.
It's not a healthy dynamic infamilies.
So you really want to encouragethe child to talk directly to
the parent.
Cary Jacobson (15:57):
And it also gives them a place, the empowerment
to, to share what their feelingsare with that parent and how
those feelings are impactingthem.
Jill Kaufman (16:07):
Exactly, and that's really important that you
know you didn't.
You didn't then get upset andstart a fight, and then the
child feels like, oh, it's myfault that my parents are
fighting.
So all of that is not ideal.
You really want to.
You want to step out of thatrelationship between the parent
(16:28):
and the child.
Cary Jacobson (16:29):
Now, does that potentially change if that child
may be fearful of how thatparent may react to those
feelings?
You know, maybe, that the otherparent is not as emotionally
supportive, right?
Because not both parents aren'tnecessarily the same when it
comes to supporting a child'semotions.
(16:51):
How would your advice, if it,would it change at all, in that
scenario?
Jill Kaufman (16:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think if they express that
they're scared to talk to theother parent, I would, I mean,
as a therapist, I would say whatare you scared of?
You know?
But really you can get atherapist involved and you can
have the child talk to thetherapist about that if you
aren't able to handle that.
But if you can, you can ask thechild you know, what are you
(17:18):
scared of?
Well, you know, mom might getmad if I say that.
Well, so what?
What if mom gets mad?
What's frightening about that?
Well, I don't like it when shegets mad.
What's frightening about that?
Well, I don't like it when shegets mad, you know.
If they say, you know she yellsat me, well then you can tell
her not, please don't yell.
You know, like you want toreally help children handle this
(17:42):
on their own and it's amazinghow they can.
They can get really empoweredwhen they confront a parent and
set some boundaries, set healthyboundaries.
And you know, I've seen ithappen where a parent changes,
you know, and they, once thechild, you know, says please
(18:03):
don't yell at me.
They're, they're realizing thatyou know, this child is not
going to want to come here ifI'm yelling, you know, and I
really have to protect myrelationship with them and I've
seen really positive thingshappen after that.
Cary Jacobson (18:20):
Yeah, what are some early signs that someone
may be divorcing someone who isa narcissist I feel like I hear
that term all the time, so I'mcautionary in using it or
someone that's just a highconflict person?
And is there something thatthose people should do to
(18:41):
prepare differently for thedivorce process?
Jill Kaufman (18:44):
Well, it depends.
I think there's a strategy.
When you're divorcing someonewho's a high conflict person,
whether they're narcissistic ornot, it's pretty much similar
behavior.
There's a strategy because youdon't want to trigger that
person.
And a lot of times, you knowattorneys are very useful but a
(19:05):
lot of times attorneys don'trealize their wording triggers
other people you know,especially high conflict people,
and so you want to make surethat you, you have an attorney
who's who's knowledgeable on howto interact and communicate
with a high conflict person.
And you want to say things invery subtle ways.
(19:28):
So you don't want to say youknow you've been late every time
you come to pick up Sally, andthat's poor parenting.
You want to say could youplease let me know if you're
going to be late and don't bemore than a couple minutes late,
because she you know Sally getsreally worried when you're not
(19:51):
there.
And so you really want to benon-threatening.
And most people know they have ahigh conflict person they're
dealing with because they weremarried to them.
Right, and they aren't easy,they're difficult, and so you
know, to prepare for it you youreally have to work on taking
(20:13):
the emotions out of it, becauseif you were married to that
person and it was a highconflict person.
You have a lot of built upanger, maybe in resentment or
your fear about dealing withthem.
A lot of times I get clientswho don't want to be in the same
room with them.
I get clients who don't want tobe in the same room with them
(20:35):
with a mediator, and they don'trealize that you know, when
you're married you're reallykind of stuck living with
someone.
When you're divorcing, you havea lot more.
You're more empowered if you'redealing with a narcissist or a
high conflict person becausethere are laws in place to
protect you and, yes, they canmake it more difficult, but at
some point they can't, you know.
Cary Jacobson (20:56):
Yeah, there's going to be.
There's going to be an end ofsome sort.
Jill Kaufman (20:59):
Right, exactly.
And if you have to go to trial,the judge will, you know, will
rule probably in your favor.
And and I think that's thestrategy too you want to really
talk to the talk to the attorneyand the mediator about like
this is going to be.
I'm going to make a better dealthan if we went to court.
(21:21):
So to avoid that, to avoidavoid going to court, you know
this is going to be better foreverybody.
Cary Jacobson (21:30):
Absolutely.
I know you have a coachingprogram and that in that program
you talk about reducing stressand increasing, you know, the
individual's confidence.
What is one small mindset shiftor tool that you people can
make to make a big difference inhow someone is feeling, you
(21:52):
know, just overwhelmed by thedivorce process?
Jill Kaufman (21:56):
Well, this sounds really simple, but there's deep
abdominal breathing and if youdo it right, you breathe in and
you actually push your stomachout when you're breathing in so
that you can get a really deep,deep breath.
And you pull your stomach inwhen you breathe out and as you
(22:19):
do this, more and more yourlungs expand and you're able to
get these really deep breaths.
Like I always tell people, ifthey put their hand on their
chest and their chest is goingup, that's a chest breath, but
if you put your hand on yourstomach and your stomach's going
out, that's an abdominal breath.
And so when you get these deepbreaths, your brain actually
(22:42):
releases a hormone that calmsyou.
And if you practice this beforeyou go to sleep, when you wake
up in the morning, you actuallyexpand the surface area of your
lungs and you can learn how todo these deep breaths anytime.
So if you're talking or you geta text from your soon to be ex,
(23:04):
you can do these deep breathsand you can really get yourself
more calm.
And that's the key we'retriggered.
We're triggered and our bloodstarts pumping and our heart
starts racing.
And your amygdala is the baseof your brain, your prefrontal
cortex is the thinking part andthat thinking part shuts off.
(23:26):
So your own, you can't reallythink through how you're going
to respond and your base of yourbrain is really just fight or
flight and you can't really umhandle all the things you need
to handle when you're goingthrough this process.
If that's the only thing youcan do, fight or run away.
So you really have to learntechniques like deep breathing.
(23:46):
There's meditations, there'slots of things like that to get
yourself calm.
Even drinking a glass of water,you know, is something that
will give you some pause so thatyou don't respond right away.
Cary Jacobson (24:00):
Yeah, and exactly I was just thinking that as
well.
Take a moment to to, you know,think about it, to calm yourself
down and then respond.
I think you know, setting thoseboundaries again about how much
time you're going to wait torespond can also, you know,
greatly improve your emotionalbandwidth of you know when
(24:25):
responding.
Jill Kaufman (24:27):
Absolutely, and you you're not going to respond
in the best way if you respondright away.
So it's much better to thinkthrough how you want to respond
or if you even need to respond.
Cary Jacobson (24:38):
Yeah, and then you know the other thing that
can also help.
I'm a huge person like of usingtechnology where it can be
appropriate.
If you're using co-parentingapps, some of them have like a
tone, check um or chat, tpt.
You know any of any AI thing.
You can put in the, thequestion or the text or the, you
(25:00):
know whatever it is, and sayhelp me respond in a simple,
professional manner.
And it takes some of thatemotion out of it because you're
not the one like it.
Jill Kaufman (25:11):
Yes, absolutely.
Chatgpt is amazing for this andit, just when you do that and
you read it back, it changesyour, it shifts your mindset, so
that you're thinking and you'renot reacting.
Cary Jacobson (25:24):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about your book and
the course that you teach orthat you have available to your
clients.
What can our listeners expectand who are they best suited for
?
Jill Kaufman (25:39):
So the book and the course, they kind of
parallel each other, but it'sreally for people who are going
through divorce, for parents whoare going through divorce.
So, from the point of like,when you're almost ready to make
that step, until the divorce isover, it goes into how to
handle your emotions, how todevelop your clarity around your
(26:03):
goals and priorities and how tonegotiate your settlement
agreement, and it also hasinformation on you know how to
deal with your finances andbudgets and what information to
collect and I have a ton ofinformation in there.
And if people are really goodat doing it on their own, they
(26:25):
can.
They can do that with the bookor the online course.
If not, then they can join mygroup coaching program and you
can use the online course in thebook in addition to having me
facilitate them working throughthat.
Cary Jacobson (26:42):
Got it Awesome.
Those sound like greatresources for anyone who may be
going through the divorceprocess.
Jill Kaufman (26:49):
Yeah, there's a lot there.
Cary Jacobson (26:51):
Yeah Well, jill, thanks so much for sharing your
wisdom, your practical tips, andthey are exactly what so many
of our listeners need right now.
If you listeners are goingthrough a divorce or struggling
to co-parent with a highconflict ex, I highly encourage
you to check out Jill's work.
You can find her book, onlinecourse and coaching program at
her website, divorcecoachjill.
(27:13):
com.
As always, thanks for tuning into Divorce Diaries and don't
forget to subscribe, leave areview and share this episode
with a friend who might need it.
And if you're looking for legalsupport for your own peaceful
divorce or custody process,check out our website at
JacobsonFamilyLaw.
com.
Intro/Close (27:35):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember, every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
No-transcript.
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