February 18, 2025 • 25 mins
Learn the secrets to managing your finances during divorce with insights from guest, Amanda Campbell, a Certified Financial Planner and Divorce Financial Analyst. Amanda and host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator, tackle the emotional and financial complexities of divorce. Amanda provides expert advice on understanding the full financial picture, including hidden costs beyond the mortgage. This episode promises valuable guidance for navigating high-stakes decisions in the midst of a divorce, helping you achieve stability and clarity in a turbulent time.
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Episode Transcript
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Intro/Close Speaker (00:02):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where Attorney
Cary Jacobson brings you realstories, hard truths and
practical advice on navigatingdivorce and family law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:25):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries
the Trenches.
I'm your host Cary Jacobson,and on this podcast we're
exploring the challenges ofdivorce and how to navigate them
with expert advice fromprofessionals who have seen it
all.
Today, I am thrilled to have myguest, Amanda Campbell, with us
.
Amanda is a certified financialplanner, a certified divorce
(00:47):
financial analyst, an accreditedasset management specialist, as
well as an accreditedinvestment fiduciary.
With all of that expertise, shehelps women navigate the
financial complexities ofdivorce to secure a stable
future.
Amanda, thanks so much forbeing here today.
Amanda Campbell (01:05):
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited.
Cary Jacobson (01:08):
Absolutely, and I'm also happy to say that
Amanda is a close friend of mine.
So, Amanda, tell me a littlebit about, or tell our listeners
, how you started your journeyon financial planning and what
really led you to work withthose focusing on divorce.
Amanda Campbell (01:27):
Yeah, it's a long, long story so I'll
condense it.
But you know, when I was incollege I started off in the
accounting track and veryquickly realized I like talking
to people it was very hard forme to sit with a calculator all
day long at my desk so veryquickly found financial planning
.
There's a lot of kismet thatwent on behind the scenes with
(01:48):
that, but when I finally reachedfinancial planning and you know
, I started off at StrategicWealth Management Group, which
turned into Stratt Wealth andthen we merged into Wealthspire.
So, believe it or not, I'veactually been with at the same
company my entire career since Igraduated college.
But you know, in sitting withfinancial advisors and starting
(02:09):
to get my feet wet in whatfinancial planning really means,
I very quickly realized thereweren't people specifically
helping women, right Like womenweren't being helped, and I had
always had this innate desire tohelp women and just felt so
strongly pulled to it justbecause of my own personal life
(02:30):
experiences.
My father passed when I was 12.
So I really had to watch my momtake the reins on figuring out
the finances for our family,making sure that we could still
make it and still continue tolive our lives.
So it all really, I always sayit all culminated in this crazy
intense passion, for I have tohelp women because no one else
(02:53):
is and you know they are anunderserved market.
So at the same time I washaving all these thoughts I was
new to financial planning, I wastrying to figure out what
market I was serving my bestfriend came to me and told me
that she was going to be goingthrough a divorce and she kind
of said to me hey, you helppeople with their money all the
time.
What does this mean for me?
And I was like babe, no, I helphappy people with their money,
(03:14):
like I don't know what it meansfor you.
So I decided right then andthere, that was the last time I
was going to tell a woman, Idon't know, you know best friend
or not.
So I went and got my CDFA rightafter that and it's.
It was just kind of history.
Ever since, right Like I'vebeen doing this, I love it, Kind
of made a track for myselfworking with women going through
(03:36):
divorce.
It is a specialty, it's niched,but I have found my people.
Just you know, like you said,Cary, we've been friends a while
, working with amazing attorneyslike you to really help women
and support them financiallyduring the divorce process,
because it is really scary.
Cary Jacobson (03:52):
It's absolutely scary, and that's one of the
biggest fears I think most womenhave when they're going through
the process how am I going tofinancially survive this Right?
And so having you on the teamdefinitely helps address those
fears.
Yeah, and we know that divorcecan be, you know, super
overwhelming, especially,especially when it comes to
(04:12):
finances.
What are some of the topfinancial concerns that your
clients struggle with the most?
Amanda Campbell (04:20):
Number one and it's number one no matter how
many years I look this over anddo this type of work.
The marital home and like,obviously you're nodding, you
know right, Marital home it'salways.
You know, I work primarily withwomen and typically there is a
strong desire to keep themarital home.
So I really encourage the womenI work with to think through
(04:43):
why do you want to keep it Right?
Is it emotional?
Is there an actual reason?
Right, are we trying to waitfor kids to get through high
school?
But, whatever the reason, doesit actually match up with what's
doable financially?
Because a lot of times womenwill say to me Amanda, I'll do
anything it takes to stay in thehouse, all right, well, when
I'm looking at your plan andwe're starting to run through
(05:03):
that, through the numbers, youmight be willing to do anything
it takes, but it still may notbe feasible.
And I would rather you knowthat upfront than after the
marital settlement agreement issigned and all of a sudden you
find yourself really feelingstrapped for cash every month.
You know, I always say it's notjust about the house and the
mortgage, it's happy homeownersexpenses, house and the mortgage
(05:23):
, it's happy homeowners expensesright, the roof, the hot water
heater stuff.
Like I say, I mean again, nomatter how many years I do this
work, the biggest hang upmistake, kind of just sticky
point that I find with myclients is the marital home.
So I do a lot of coachingaround.
Tell me why you want to keep itand let's look at the numbers
(05:44):
and see if it justifies.
You know the means.
Cary Jacobson (05:46):
Yeah, but in this higher interest rate situation,
are you seeing a change in howpeople are handling the marital
home?
Because in years past,oftentimes you know the quick
thing was to refinance, buy yourspouse out of their interest
(06:08):
and that sort of thing.
But I'm finding that that's notalways possible, at least not
right away.
Amanda Campbell (06:14):
Totally, and it's definitely shifted in the
past 24 months, for sure,because, you're right, it used
to kind of be easy to get out ofthe marital home, right.
But now it's like hey, I have a2.875% rate, I don't want a
7.5% rate and, quite frankly,that may not be feasible.
That is, that does jump yourpayment pretty significantly,
(06:35):
and then on top of that, withthe way that houses have
increased, right, just thepricing you may not be getting,
it may not be worth it to moveout of your marital home, right.
So, but, but there are stillsome instances and I know you
see it too where you have toleave the giant marital home
behind, just because, again, itdoesn't just come down to the
(06:57):
mortgage.
Like, yes, you may have asmaller home with a higher
interest rate, but you don'thave to pay for landscaping
twice a year, you don't have topay for the weekly lawn mowing,
like that stuff adds up.
So you're exactly right.
Although the landscape haschanged, I still find myself
coming back to a lot of the keyprinciples of why do you want
(07:19):
this home?
And a lot of times now it maynot be.
Let's get out of the homeimmediately, but let's have a
plan for the next three to fiveyears.
Right, because you're right, itused to be very immediate and
now it's more of a graduatedstep down.
Cary Jacobson (07:31):
Yeah, that's what we're kind of saying, that
three to five year mark, hoping,you know, I think we're all
fingers crossed that theinterest rates are going to come
down at least somewhat and itwill be a little bit more
reasonable for people torefinance to.
Maybe it's not seven, butprobably not three.
(07:52):
But we're in, you know,somewhere in the middle there.
Yes, in your experience, whatis one common mistake you've
seen people make during thedivorce process that could have
been prevented, and how can ourlisteners avoid it?
Amanda Campbell (08:12):
Oh, okay, so the biggest one I see, and this
one's pretty avoidable, so I'llkind of do two, cause they go a
little bit hand in hand.
You already know what I'm goingto say, Cary, but trading
retirement dollars fornon-retirement dollars.
So a lot of times during thedivorce process and this is why
I am so just an advocate formaking sure that you have the
(08:34):
proper people surrounding youwhen you're going through a
divorce the proper attorney, theproper financial professional,
the proper mental healthprofessional right, because
you're going to get exhaustedand the place where I see the
most fatigue is with thefinances.
Cause you just get to a pointwhere you're like you know my
client will say to me fine,amanda, just just say it's okay,
(08:56):
so I can go and sign.
And I'm like, no, it's not okay, we are not taking a hundred
thousand dollars of his 401k sohe can keep a hundred thousand
dollars of the joint account.
Right, that is not a dollar fordollar transaction, and what I
mean by that is $100,000 of IRAor 401k money.
You have to pay full tax onthat.
(09:17):
Income tax, let's just say 30%,just that's the number I kind
of always use, whereas a dollarin a joint account or an
investment account you don't oweincome tax on.
So that is a place where I amvery, very strict with my
clients on looking at thenumbers, looking at the sourcing
of where those dollars arecoming from.
(09:37):
And then kind of in that samevein, right, let's say that my
clients are split, or my clientis splitting a joint account
with her husband.
I recently had one where thehusband was trying to say, oh,
we'll split the account 50-50,but she can take these stocks
(10:00):
and I'm going to take thesestocks.
Well, guess what Stocks that hewanted her to have had
ridiculously low basis on thembecause they bought them at like
the beginning of their marriage.
So he did not want to have topay capital gains tax on the
growth, right?
Because he was in a higherearning tax bracket.
So and we went round and roundlike it was.
It got really messy.
But my client to this day islike Amanda thank you for not
(10:23):
letting me just settle and takethat, because I mean, a lot of
that money would have gone totax.
Like you, you have to pay taxon any growth in an investment
account, right?
So it's just watching forthings like that, which you may
not.
You know, without the propertraining and without the proper
knowledge, you're not going tothink about that stuff.
(10:43):
But it really matters.
It matters to the bottom line.
Cary Jacobson (10:47):
Yeah, I think anytime when we're talking about
tax consequences, it'sabsolutely crucial to have a
financial advisor in the mix,because everybody's situation is
so unique and it needs to belooked at, you know, in totality
and, as attorneys and mediators, that's not our training, even
(11:10):
though many of us will try totake on that role, and you know
it's not where our expertiselies, and so I think it's
important to have, you know,someone like you in the mix on
that.
Amanda Campbell (11:25):
Well, thank you , and I do always say I can help
until the marital settlementagreement is signed, because,
you're right, Cary, like a lotof attorneys do try to do this
on their own, and clients willcome to me after the fact I'm
like, oh, that was a bigwhoopsie and now we can't really
undo it.
So you're absolutely right.
Cary Jacobson (11:42):
Yeah, I'm sure that there are, you know, many
women that you encounter thatfeel paralyzed by the financial
uncertainty of divorce.
What would the first step be tofor someone to take to organize
their finances when they arestarting the divorce process?
Amanda Campbell (12:02):
Yeah.
So I always say the first thingis, just take a deep breath,
sit down with a glass of wineand a sheet of blank paper and
try to just write down frommemory all of the accounts that
you and your husband havetogether, so everything you own
and everything you owe.
So any liabilities, you knowwhere your mortgage is kept and
(12:25):
about how much it is right, whatthe balance is.
Do you guys have any car notestogether?
Any outstanding student loans?
Maybe you all took out studentloans for your children, right?
Just taking a deep breath tosay from memory what do we have
in our household?
The best place to start,because then you can start
finding sourcing documents forall of that stuff.
(12:46):
Right, I'm going to need to seestatements for everything, just
like your attorney is.
So, really, just taking thatdeep breath to just wrap your
head around what do I have?
And if you have not been, youknow the person I would say the
CFO of the household.
Right, if you have not been theCFO of the household, you have
been filling more of the CEOcapacity.
(13:07):
Now's the time to step up andreally start asking questions.
You know, and I get, that itmay be an uncomfortable, you
know, couple dynamic at thattime you all are, you know,
starting to go down the divorcepath.
But it's just fair for you toknow and that's not something
I'll back down from like, youhave the right to ask as a woman
and as a wife you have theright to have those answers.
(13:29):
So start asking and really tryto figure it out.
Cary Jacobson (13:33):
Is there a particular source?
I mean, if someone has not beenin that CFO role, right, and
they're trying to gather some ofthose sourcing documents.
What are some of the thingsthat you suggest that they start
looking for?
Amanda Campbell (13:50):
Yep.
So the easy fish in the barrelare bank accounts, right.
So your checking account?
Hopefully they're joint.
If they're not, make sure thatyou have handle on what do you
have?
What does he have?
Any investment accounts areusually kept jointly, right.
So you know Chuck Charles orCharles Schwab, t R Price,
(14:10):
morgan Stanley, all those likenormal wire houses um retirement
plans, those are tough right,cause they lie within your own
name, his name, right?
So you can never call andfigure out what your partner
right it's.
It doesn't work that way.
So I say, start with the easythings bank accounts, investment
accounts and you'll kind ofhave to learn about the other
(14:33):
stuff as you go along.
Yeah, great answer.
Cary Jacobson (14:37):
Yeah, I always also suggest tax returns,
because that's a great aplethora of information, because
maybe you don't know about aninvestment account or some other
, something Right and off.
Many times some of thatinformation will be buried in
those tax records.
So you know there's a 1099 thatequates to a particular account
(15:01):
or something like that that canbe helpful.
Amanda Campbell (15:03):
Yeah, those are super helpful if you can kind
of get your hands on them andpick them apart.
Cary Jacobson (15:07):
Right, yeah.
Well, even if you can't pickthem apart, maybe someone else
can pick them apart, but atleast you have the information
to share, right.
Yes, for those listeners whoalso have children, is there a
particular financial approachthat is different than those who
(15:28):
do not have children?
Amanda Campbell (15:30):
Oh my gosh.
Yes.
So I think you know, when Iwork with women who have
children who are are minors andhonestly, these days, even if
they're not, because no kids arelaunching at 18 anymore, like
that's just not happening Ireally try to work with them on
what are your expenses versuswhat?
Versus what are the kidsexpenses right?
(15:52):
And I know that is so hard toanswer because so much of it
gets so mingled, but to reallyunderstand what she's going to
need moving forward in her life,there has to be an end, there
has to be an end date for thekids' expenses Right.
So when I'm working withsomebody who has, you know,
young children all the way upthrough around 2021, it really
(16:14):
is what are we looking to dolong-term?
Who's paying for college, right?
Who's paying forextracurricular activities?
And that's the stuff that,while we can work through a plan
, gets kind of run up to theattorney to say what's possible,
what's doable and what isopposing counsel offering.
Cary Jacobson (16:33):
Yeah.
What is the legal requirement?
As far as what a parent may beobligated to pay versus what
they may be willing to pay, itvaries depending on how long it
is, and sometimes my clientwon't get the answer she wants,
(16:54):
right?
Amanda Campbell (16:55):
Sometimes the husband's like oh, I actually no
longer want to pay for collegeand can't really make them.
Right, you can't make them.
So then it becomes well, whatdo you want to do with your
wealth?
Is this something you'd like tosupport moving forward, or is
it okay if kids get studentloans Right?
So there is a lot that goesinto really coming up with a
(17:17):
successful and in-depth andmeaningful financial plan when
there are children involved, forsure.
Cary Jacobson (17:23):
Yeah, I would just note for our listeners,
because you're listening outsideof Maryland.
It really depends on the state,because there are some states
where child support is obligatedthrough college, depending on
whether or not the children areenrolled in school college,
depending on whether or not thechildren are enrolled in school.
(17:43):
But for us who are working herein Maryland, child support
terminates, you know, wheneverthe child graduates high school.
So, like you said, there's nofinancial requirement for them,
for parents, to pay for college.
So it does get a little trickyon how that's going to happen.
Yeah, can you share an exampleof how proactive financial
(18:09):
planning made a difference inthe outcome of a divorce?
Amanda Campbell (18:15):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean, I think it just helpseverybody to have a financial
plan in divorce.
But the one, the one that Ialways come back to, is so this
client and I were workingtogether and she, you know, they
were going through acollaborative divorce, which I
don't know if it was necessarilythe best option for them, but
(18:36):
anyways, we had built thisbeautiful financial plan for her
and she was feeling good aboutit and really understood how her
money was going to work for her.
For some reason, husbandthought she is going to be
riding off into the sunset witha backpack full of money and,
just like she is taking me forall I'm worth.
(18:57):
It is the one and only timeI've ever done this, but I was
able to present her financialplan, which was very thought out
, very like, meticulouslydetailed.
I was able, with her permission,to show her financial plan to
opposing counsel and to herhusband and in that exact
meeting they were, they weregood to sign.
(19:18):
He was like I understand thatshe is, she's just trying to
make a.
He was like I understand thatshe is she's just trying to make
a good life for herself.
I understand that she's nottaking me for all I'm worth.
And it really just showed methe power of just knowledge.
And, like he really had noconcept of his of the money that
they were splitting, you knowhe had never thought about, oh
(19:40):
my gosh, how does she need tomake life work after we split?
And I keep working and shedoesn't.
And it just really reminded methat, as scared as my clients
are of the money opposingcounsel and the other side,
they're scared too, andsometimes they're not.
You know, a lot of times thoseheated arguments are just from a
(20:00):
lack of knowledge.
Right, so to your point, justbeing proactive, having a good
financial plan.
It was just such a wild exampleof we had this ready to go
because we had worked so hardand it pushed everything over
the finish line.
Cary Jacobson (20:16):
Yeah, I think oftentimes seeing the numbers in
black and white can be the eyeopener, because oftentimes we're
just thinking theoreticals andit's like, well, what does that
actually mean in practice?
And so I do a lot of that whenI'm working with people in like
mediation.
It's like, well, let's look atthe spreadsheet or let's look at
(20:38):
the actual numbers, what doesthat mean?
Right, so they can put contextto what they're talking about,
because sometimes they're justthinking, well, they're going to
get so much more out of thisparticular thing, but really,
when it boils down to it, itends up being like not very much
in the grand scheme of things.
So, yeah, putting the numbersto it definitely can help.
Amanda Campbell (21:02):
Yes, absolutely .
Cary Jacobson (21:06):
As we start to wrap up, what's one piece of
advice that you would offerlisteners who are feeling
overwhelmed by those financialaspects of their divorce?
Amanda Campbell (21:17):
Yeah, just honestly, number one, truly take
a deep breath.
It's going to be okay.
I know that it isextraordinarily scary when all
of a sudden, you know you werenot the CFO of the household or
maybe you didn't take that frontseat, and now you are being
confronted with.
You have to figure it all outon your own.
And not only that, but now it'snot a great place to figure
(21:40):
that out.
You're figuring out amongstanimosity, right?
So there are a lot of emotions,but truly meaningfully, please
find somebody to work with.
Please find a CDFA I know weare not there, aren't a bunch of
us out there but find one thatyou know, love and trust and
have good chemistry with,because that person, that expert
(22:02):
, they'll really help you tofigure out so much stuff.
I mean you know, for me, Ialways tell my clients I can run
when you need to run or I canwalk with you when you need to
walk, because that's how divorceis right.
Sometimes it's slow, sometimesit's fast, sometimes we're
waiting on information, but thisnumber stuff, this finance
(22:25):
stuff, I mean I've been doing itfor 15 years.
Right, it's not.
You know, clients say to me ohmy , Amanda, you must think I'm
so dumb.
I don't know this.
I don't think you're dumb atall.
Like, I've been doing this for15 years.
You've been doing this for gosh, 15 minutes since you found out
your divorce was going tohappen.
So just find somebody that youcan really talk to about this
stuff, feel comfortable talkingwith and truly build a solid
(22:46):
divorce team, because, you know,have an amazing attorney, get a
mental health professional, geta divorce coach if you need one
.
Even if you're kind of like huh, that sounds like a waste of
money.
I promise you it's not right.
Make sure you're surroundingyourself, because it takes a
village to get through a divorce.
Cary Jacobson (23:02):
Absolutely All right.
So can you tell our audiencehow they can find out more about
you and the services that youprovide?
Amanda Campbell (23:12):
Yes, so you can find my bio.
Find out about WealthspireAdvisors at Wealthspire.
com, and the easiest way to geta hold of me is by email at
amanda.
campbell@w ealthspire.
com, and I look forward tohearing from you.
Thank you so much, Cary.
This was fun.
Cary Jacobson (23:31):
You're welcome and thank you so much.
Thanks for sharing thosevaluable insights.
We know that divorce can bechallenging, but with
professionals like you guidingthe way, we know it's possible
to come out on the other side somuch stronger, and I look
forward to continuing to workwith our clients together.
Amanda Campbell (23:49):
Yes, thank you, thank you.
Intro/Close Speaker (23:54):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode
of Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.
com or call 443-726-4912 forsupport and guidance.
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where Attorney
Cary Jacobson brings you realstories, hard truths and
practical advice on navigatingdivorce and family law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:25):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries
the Trenches.
I'm your host Cary Jacobson,and on this podcast we're
exploring the challenges ofdivorce and how to navigate them
with expert advice fromprofessionals who have seen it
all.
Today, I am thrilled to have myguest, Amanda Campbell, with us
.
Amanda is a certified financialplanner, a certified divorce
(00:47):
financial analyst, an accreditedasset management specialist, as
well as an accreditedinvestment fiduciary.
With all of that expertise, shehelps women navigate the
financial complexities ofdivorce to secure a stable
future.
Amanda, thanks so much forbeing here today.
Amanda Campbell (01:05):
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited.
Cary Jacobson (01:08):
Absolutely, and I'm also happy to say that
Amanda is a close friend of mine.
So, Amanda, tell me a littlebit about, or tell our listeners
, how you started your journeyon financial planning and what
really led you to work withthose focusing on divorce.
Amanda Campbell (01:27):
Yeah, it's a long, long story so I'll
condense it.
But you know, when I was incollege I started off in the
accounting track and veryquickly realized I like talking
to people it was very hard forme to sit with a calculator all
day long at my desk so veryquickly found financial planning
.
There's a lot of kismet thatwent on behind the scenes with
(01:48):
that, but when I finally reachedfinancial planning and you know
, I started off at StrategicWealth Management Group, which
turned into Stratt Wealth andthen we merged into Wealthspire.
So, believe it or not, I'veactually been with at the same
company my entire career since Igraduated college.
But you know, in sitting withfinancial advisors and starting
(02:09):
to get my feet wet in whatfinancial planning really means,
I very quickly realized thereweren't people specifically
helping women, right Like womenweren't being helped, and I had
always had this innate desire tohelp women and just felt so
strongly pulled to it justbecause of my own personal life
(02:30):
experiences.
My father passed when I was 12.
So I really had to watch my momtake the reins on figuring out
the finances for our family,making sure that we could still
make it and still continue tolive our lives.
So it all really, I always sayit all culminated in this crazy
intense passion, for I have tohelp women because no one else
(02:53):
is and you know they are anunderserved market.
So at the same time I washaving all these thoughts I was
new to financial planning, I wastrying to figure out what
market I was serving my bestfriend came to me and told me
that she was going to be goingthrough a divorce and she kind
of said to me hey, you helppeople with their money all the
time.
What does this mean for me?
And I was like babe, no, I helphappy people with their money,
(03:14):
like I don't know what it meansfor you.
So I decided right then andthere, that was the last time I
was going to tell a woman, Idon't know, you know best friend
or not.
So I went and got my CDFA rightafter that and it's.
It was just kind of history.
Ever since, right Like I'vebeen doing this, I love it, Kind
of made a track for myselfworking with women going through
(03:36):
divorce.
It is a specialty, it's niched,but I have found my people.
Just you know, like you said,Cary, we've been friends a while
, working with amazing attorneyslike you to really help women
and support them financiallyduring the divorce process,
because it is really scary.
Cary Jacobson (03:52):
It's absolutely scary, and that's one of the
biggest fears I think most womenhave when they're going through
the process how am I going tofinancially survive this Right?
And so having you on the teamdefinitely helps address those
fears.
Yeah, and we know that divorcecan be, you know, super
overwhelming, especially,especially when it comes to
(04:12):
finances.
What are some of the topfinancial concerns that your
clients struggle with the most?
Amanda Campbell (04:20):
Number one and it's number one no matter how
many years I look this over anddo this type of work.
The marital home and like,obviously you're nodding, you
know right, Marital home it'salways.
You know, I work primarily withwomen and typically there is a
strong desire to keep themarital home.
So I really encourage the womenI work with to think through
(04:43):
why do you want to keep it Right?
Is it emotional?
Is there an actual reason?
Right, are we trying to waitfor kids to get through high
school?
But, whatever the reason, doesit actually match up with what's
doable financially?
Because a lot of times womenwill say to me Amanda, I'll do
anything it takes to stay in thehouse, all right, well, when
I'm looking at your plan andwe're starting to run through
(05:03):
that, through the numbers, youmight be willing to do anything
it takes, but it still may notbe feasible.
And I would rather you knowthat upfront than after the
marital settlement agreement issigned and all of a sudden you
find yourself really feelingstrapped for cash every month.
You know, I always say it's notjust about the house and the
mortgage, it's happy homeownersexpenses, house and the mortgage
(05:23):
, it's happy homeowners expensesright, the roof, the hot water
heater stuff.
Like I say, I mean again, nomatter how many years I do this
work, the biggest hang upmistake, kind of just sticky
point that I find with myclients is the marital home.
So I do a lot of coachingaround.
Tell me why you want to keep itand let's look at the numbers
(05:44):
and see if it justifies.
You know the means.
Cary Jacobson (05:46):
Yeah, but in this higher interest rate situation,
are you seeing a change in howpeople are handling the marital
home?
Because in years past,oftentimes you know the quick
thing was to refinance, buy yourspouse out of their interest
(06:08):
and that sort of thing.
But I'm finding that that's notalways possible, at least not
right away.
Amanda Campbell (06:14):
Totally, and it's definitely shifted in the
past 24 months, for sure,because, you're right, it used
to kind of be easy to get out ofthe marital home, right.
But now it's like hey, I have a2.875% rate, I don't want a
7.5% rate and, quite frankly,that may not be feasible.
That is, that does jump yourpayment pretty significantly,
(06:35):
and then on top of that, withthe way that houses have
increased, right, just thepricing you may not be getting,
it may not be worth it to moveout of your marital home, right.
So, but, but there are stillsome instances and I know you
see it too where you have toleave the giant marital home
behind, just because, again, itdoesn't just come down to the
(06:57):
mortgage.
Like, yes, you may have asmaller home with a higher
interest rate, but you don'thave to pay for landscaping
twice a year, you don't have topay for the weekly lawn mowing,
like that stuff adds up.
So you're exactly right.
Although the landscape haschanged, I still find myself
coming back to a lot of the keyprinciples of why do you want
(07:19):
this home?
And a lot of times now it maynot be.
Let's get out of the homeimmediately, but let's have a
plan for the next three to fiveyears.
Right, because you're right, itused to be very immediate and
now it's more of a graduatedstep down.
Cary Jacobson (07:31):
Yeah, that's what we're kind of saying, that
three to five year mark, hoping,you know, I think we're all
fingers crossed that theinterest rates are going to come
down at least somewhat and itwill be a little bit more
reasonable for people torefinance to.
Maybe it's not seven, butprobably not three.
(07:52):
But we're in, you know,somewhere in the middle there.
Yes, in your experience, whatis one common mistake you've
seen people make during thedivorce process that could have
been prevented, and how can ourlisteners avoid it?
Amanda Campbell (08:12):
Oh, okay, so the biggest one I see, and this
one's pretty avoidable, so I'llkind of do two, cause they go a
little bit hand in hand.
You already know what I'm goingto say, Cary, but trading
retirement dollars fornon-retirement dollars.
So a lot of times during thedivorce process and this is why
I am so just an advocate formaking sure that you have the
(08:34):
proper people surrounding youwhen you're going through a
divorce the proper attorney, theproper financial professional,
the proper mental healthprofessional right, because
you're going to get exhaustedand the place where I see the
most fatigue is with thefinances.
Cause you just get to a pointwhere you're like you know my
client will say to me fine,amanda, just just say it's okay,
(08:56):
so I can go and sign.
And I'm like, no, it's not okay, we are not taking a hundred
thousand dollars of his 401k sohe can keep a hundred thousand
dollars of the joint account.
Right, that is not a dollar fordollar transaction, and what I
mean by that is $100,000 of IRAor 401k money.
You have to pay full tax onthat.
(09:17):
Income tax, let's just say 30%,just that's the number I kind
of always use, whereas a dollarin a joint account or an
investment account you don't oweincome tax on.
So that is a place where I amvery, very strict with my
clients on looking at thenumbers, looking at the sourcing
of where those dollars arecoming from.
(09:37):
And then kind of in that samevein, right, let's say that my
clients are split, or my clientis splitting a joint account
with her husband.
I recently had one where thehusband was trying to say, oh,
we'll split the account 50-50,but she can take these stocks
(10:00):
and I'm going to take thesestocks.
Well, guess what Stocks that hewanted her to have had
ridiculously low basis on thembecause they bought them at like
the beginning of their marriage.
So he did not want to have topay capital gains tax on the
growth, right?
Because he was in a higherearning tax bracket.
So and we went round and roundlike it was.
It got really messy.
But my client to this day islike Amanda thank you for not
(10:23):
letting me just settle and takethat, because I mean, a lot of
that money would have gone totax.
Like you, you have to pay taxon any growth in an investment
account, right?
So it's just watching forthings like that, which you may
not.
You know, without the propertraining and without the proper
knowledge, you're not going tothink about that stuff.
(10:43):
But it really matters.
It matters to the bottom line.
Cary Jacobson (10:47):
Yeah, I think anytime when we're talking about
tax consequences, it'sabsolutely crucial to have a
financial advisor in the mix,because everybody's situation is
so unique and it needs to belooked at, you know, in totality
and, as attorneys and mediators, that's not our training, even
(11:10):
though many of us will try totake on that role, and you know
it's not where our expertiselies, and so I think it's
important to have, you know,someone like you in the mix on
that.
Amanda Campbell (11:25):
Well, thank you , and I do always say I can help
until the marital settlementagreement is signed, because,
you're right, Cary, like a lotof attorneys do try to do this
on their own, and clients willcome to me after the fact I'm
like, oh, that was a bigwhoopsie and now we can't really
undo it.
So you're absolutely right.
Cary Jacobson (11:42):
Yeah, I'm sure that there are, you know, many
women that you encounter thatfeel paralyzed by the financial
uncertainty of divorce.
What would the first step be tofor someone to take to organize
their finances when they arestarting the divorce process?
Amanda Campbell (12:02):
Yeah.
So I always say the first thingis, just take a deep breath,
sit down with a glass of wineand a sheet of blank paper and
try to just write down frommemory all of the accounts that
you and your husband havetogether, so everything you own
and everything you owe.
So any liabilities, you knowwhere your mortgage is kept and
(12:25):
about how much it is right, whatthe balance is.
Do you guys have any car notestogether?
Any outstanding student loans?
Maybe you all took out studentloans for your children, right?
Just taking a deep breath tosay from memory what do we have
in our household?
The best place to start,because then you can start
finding sourcing documents forall of that stuff.
(12:46):
Right, I'm going to need to seestatements for everything, just
like your attorney is.
So, really, just taking thatdeep breath to just wrap your
head around what do I have?
And if you have not been, youknow the person I would say the
CFO of the household.
Right, if you have not been theCFO of the household, you have
been filling more of the CEOcapacity.
(13:07):
Now's the time to step up andreally start asking questions.
You know, and I get, that itmay be an uncomfortable, you
know, couple dynamic at thattime you all are, you know,
starting to go down the divorcepath.
But it's just fair for you toknow and that's not something
I'll back down from like, youhave the right to ask as a woman
and as a wife you have theright to have those answers.
(13:29):
So start asking and really tryto figure it out.
Cary Jacobson (13:33):
Is there a particular source?
I mean, if someone has not beenin that CFO role, right, and
they're trying to gather some ofthose sourcing documents.
What are some of the thingsthat you suggest that they start
looking for?
Amanda Campbell (13:50):
Yep.
So the easy fish in the barrelare bank accounts, right.
So your checking account?
Hopefully they're joint.
If they're not, make sure thatyou have handle on what do you
have?
What does he have?
Any investment accounts areusually kept jointly, right.
So you know Chuck Charles orCharles Schwab, t R Price,
(14:10):
morgan Stanley, all those likenormal wire houses um retirement
plans, those are tough right,cause they lie within your own
name, his name, right?
So you can never call andfigure out what your partner
right it's.
It doesn't work that way.
So I say, start with the easythings bank accounts, investment
accounts and you'll kind ofhave to learn about the other
(14:33):
stuff as you go along.
Yeah, great answer.
Cary Jacobson (14:37):
Yeah, I always also suggest tax returns,
because that's a great aplethora of information, because
maybe you don't know about aninvestment account or some other
, something Right and off.
Many times some of thatinformation will be buried in
those tax records.
So you know there's a 1099 thatequates to a particular account
(15:01):
or something like that that canbe helpful.
Amanda Campbell (15:03):
Yeah, those are super helpful if you can kind
of get your hands on them andpick them apart.
Cary Jacobson (15:07):
Right, yeah.
Well, even if you can't pickthem apart, maybe someone else
can pick them apart, but atleast you have the information
to share, right.
Yes, for those listeners whoalso have children, is there a
particular financial approachthat is different than those who
(15:28):
do not have children?
Amanda Campbell (15:30):
Oh my gosh.
Yes.
So I think you know, when Iwork with women who have
children who are are minors andhonestly, these days, even if
they're not, because no kids arelaunching at 18 anymore, like
that's just not happening Ireally try to work with them on
what are your expenses versuswhat?
Versus what are the kidsexpenses right?
(15:52):
And I know that is so hard toanswer because so much of it
gets so mingled, but to reallyunderstand what she's going to
need moving forward in her life,there has to be an end, there
has to be an end date for thekids' expenses Right.
So when I'm working withsomebody who has, you know,
young children all the way upthrough around 2021, it really
(16:14):
is what are we looking to dolong-term?
Who's paying for college, right?
Who's paying forextracurricular activities?
And that's the stuff that,while we can work through a plan
, gets kind of run up to theattorney to say what's possible,
what's doable and what isopposing counsel offering.
Cary Jacobson (16:33):
Yeah.
What is the legal requirement?
As far as what a parent may beobligated to pay versus what
they may be willing to pay, itvaries depending on how long it
is, and sometimes my clientwon't get the answer she wants,
(16:54):
right?
Amanda Campbell (16:55):
Sometimes the husband's like oh, I actually no
longer want to pay for collegeand can't really make them.
Right, you can't make them.
So then it becomes well, whatdo you want to do with your
wealth?
Is this something you'd like tosupport moving forward, or is
it okay if kids get studentloans Right?
So there is a lot that goesinto really coming up with a
(17:17):
successful and in-depth andmeaningful financial plan when
there are children involved, forsure.
Cary Jacobson (17:23):
Yeah, I would just note for our listeners,
because you're listening outsideof Maryland.
It really depends on the state,because there are some states
where child support is obligatedthrough college, depending on
whether or not the children areenrolled in school college,
depending on whether or not thechildren are enrolled in school.
(17:43):
But for us who are working herein Maryland, child support
terminates, you know, wheneverthe child graduates high school.
So, like you said, there's nofinancial requirement for them,
for parents, to pay for college.
So it does get a little trickyon how that's going to happen.
Yeah, can you share an exampleof how proactive financial
(18:09):
planning made a difference inthe outcome of a divorce?
Amanda Campbell (18:15):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean, I think it just helpseverybody to have a financial
plan in divorce.
But the one, the one that Ialways come back to, is so this
client and I were workingtogether and she, you know, they
were going through acollaborative divorce, which I
don't know if it was necessarilythe best option for them, but
(18:36):
anyways, we had built thisbeautiful financial plan for her
and she was feeling good aboutit and really understood how her
money was going to work for her.
For some reason, husbandthought she is going to be
riding off into the sunset witha backpack full of money and,
just like she is taking me forall I'm worth.
(18:57):
It is the one and only timeI've ever done this, but I was
able to present her financialplan, which was very thought out
, very like, meticulouslydetailed.
I was able, with her permission,to show her financial plan to
opposing counsel and to herhusband and in that exact
meeting they were, they weregood to sign.
(19:18):
He was like I understand thatshe is, she's just trying to
make a.
He was like I understand thatshe is she's just trying to make
a good life for herself.
I understand that she's nottaking me for all I'm worth.
And it really just showed methe power of just knowledge.
And, like he really had noconcept of his of the money that
they were splitting, you knowhe had never thought about, oh
(19:40):
my gosh, how does she need tomake life work after we split?
And I keep working and shedoesn't.
And it just really reminded methat, as scared as my clients
are of the money opposingcounsel and the other side,
they're scared too, andsometimes they're not.
You know, a lot of times thoseheated arguments are just from a
(20:00):
lack of knowledge.
Right, so to your point, justbeing proactive, having a good
financial plan.
It was just such a wild exampleof we had this ready to go
because we had worked so hardand it pushed everything over
the finish line.
Cary Jacobson (20:16):
Yeah, I think oftentimes seeing the numbers in
black and white can be the eyeopener, because oftentimes we're
just thinking theoreticals andit's like, well, what does that
actually mean in practice?
And so I do a lot of that whenI'm working with people in like
mediation.
It's like, well, let's look atthe spreadsheet or let's look at
(20:38):
the actual numbers, what doesthat mean?
Right, so they can put contextto what they're talking about,
because sometimes they're justthinking, well, they're going to
get so much more out of thisparticular thing, but really,
when it boils down to it, itends up being like not very much
in the grand scheme of things.
So, yeah, putting the numbersto it definitely can help.
Amanda Campbell (21:02):
Yes, absolutely .
Cary Jacobson (21:06):
As we start to wrap up, what's one piece of
advice that you would offerlisteners who are feeling
overwhelmed by those financialaspects of their divorce?
Amanda Campbell (21:17):
Yeah, just honestly, number one, truly take
a deep breath.
It's going to be okay.
I know that it isextraordinarily scary when all
of a sudden, you know you werenot the CFO of the household or
maybe you didn't take that frontseat, and now you are being
confronted with.
You have to figure it all outon your own.
And not only that, but now it'snot a great place to figure
(21:40):
that out.
You're figuring out amongstanimosity, right?
So there are a lot of emotions,but truly meaningfully, please
find somebody to work with.
Please find a CDFA I know weare not there, aren't a bunch of
us out there but find one thatyou know, love and trust and
have good chemistry with,because that person, that expert
(22:02):
, they'll really help you tofigure out so much stuff.
I mean you know, for me, Ialways tell my clients I can run
when you need to run or I canwalk with you when you need to
walk, because that's how divorceis right.
Sometimes it's slow, sometimesit's fast, sometimes we're
waiting on information, but thisnumber stuff, this finance
(22:25):
stuff, I mean I've been doing itfor 15 years.
Right, it's not.
You know, clients say to me ohmy , Amanda, you must think I'm
so dumb.
I don't know this.
I don't think you're dumb atall.
Like, I've been doing this for15 years.
You've been doing this for gosh, 15 minutes since you found out
your divorce was going tohappen.
So just find somebody that youcan really talk to about this
stuff, feel comfortable talkingwith and truly build a solid
(22:46):
divorce team, because, you know,have an amazing attorney, get a
mental health professional, geta divorce coach if you need one
.
Even if you're kind of like huh, that sounds like a waste of
money.
I promise you it's not right.
Make sure you're surroundingyourself, because it takes a
village to get through a divorce.
Cary Jacobson (23:02):
Absolutely All right.
So can you tell our audiencehow they can find out more about
you and the services that youprovide?
Amanda Campbell (23:12):
Yes, so you can find my bio.
Find out about WealthspireAdvisors at Wealthspire.
com, and the easiest way to geta hold of me is by email at
amanda.
campbell@w ealthspire.
com, and I look forward tohearing from you.
Thank you so much, Cary.
This was fun.
Cary Jacobson (23:31):
You're welcome and thank you so much.
Thanks for sharing thosevaluable insights.
We know that divorce can bechallenging, but with
professionals like you guidingthe way, we know it's possible
to come out on the other side somuch stronger, and I look
forward to continuing to workwith our clients together.
Amanda Campbell (23:49):
Yes, thank you, thank you.
Intro/Close Speaker (23:54):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode
of Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.
com or call 443-726-4912 forsupport and guidance.
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