Host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator with Jacobson Family Law, is joined by Rita Morris, Co-Parent Coach and Mediator. Together, they explore the challenges of co-parenting after divorce and share strategies for creating healthier family dynamics. Discover how to stay anchored in your values, manage differing parenting styles, reduce conflict, and prioritize your child’s peace for a stronger future. .
Ready to transform your co-parenting relationship? Visit thecoparentspath.com or call 781-492-6082 to schedule a complimentary consultation with Rita Morris.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to learn more.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Rita Morris (00:00):
And really, what it came down to was they're each
acting in a way that theybelieve is in the best interest
of the kids, and so, instead offinding themselves frustrated by
the other parents, parentingit's remembering OK, this is,
you know, this is what theybelieve to be in the best
interest of the kids.
That being said, they are notputting their kids in danger.
(00:20):
Their kids are not unsafe.
It's just a difference inparenting styles, and that's an
important distinction to make.
Intro/Close (00:27):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:49):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, where we share realstories and expert guidance to
help you navigate divorce andlife after separation with
resilience and clarity.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,divorce attorney, mediator and
advocate for out-of-courtsolutions, and today's episode
is all about one of the mostimportant and most challenging
(01:11):
parts of divorce, which isco-parenting.
Our guest today is Rita Morris.
She is a certified co-parentcoach and mediator.
Rita helps parents co-parentfrom the inside out, anchored in
their why and focused onprotecting the child's peace for
a calmer, stronger future.
With her background in mentalhealth and conflict resolution,
(01:34):
she blends emotional insightwith practical strategies to
help families move beyond theconflict and create healthier
dynamics for children.
Rita, welcome and thank you somuch for being with us today.
Rita Morris (01:46):
Thank you so much.
I'm really excited to be here.
Cary Jacobson (01:49):
Well, I would love for you to share what you
mean by co-parenting from theinside out.
What does that mean to you?
Rita Morris (01:57):
So I've been doing this work for a long time and
one of the things that I noticedis that you can talk about
behavior change from now untilthe end of time.
You can talk aboutcommunication skills and
conflict resolution skills andall the things right, but if
you're not anchored in what'simportant to you, it's really
(02:18):
easy to get caught up in all ofthe what I like to call the
emotional muck that was yourmarriage.
So parenting from you know,co-parenting from the inside out
is why do I want to do this?
Well, I want to do this.
Well, for the sake of my kidsand really anchoring in that,
and then asking yourself, youknow, with every interaction am
(02:40):
I parenting?
Am I co-parenting from myvalues and from my why am I
parenting?
Am I co-parenting from myvalues and from my why?
Cary Jacobson (02:46):
That's amazing.
We often hear you know that weneed to know the why behind
doing something, and so this isjust another example of that and
really making sure that theseparents are focused on the
children being the why and whatit is that they want to come out
of that co-parentingrelationship.
Rita Morris (03:08):
Yes, one of the questions I ask all the time is
in 10 years, how do you wantyour kids to describe their
childhood Right?
Cary Jacobson (03:16):
Yeah, and I'm sure you get a variety of
answers to that.
Rita Morris (03:22):
And then the next question always is so is your
behavior now in line with thatvision?
And if not, that's OK, becausewe're all human, it's just how
do we get there Right, Then what?
Cary Jacobson (03:33):
what changes can we make and tools can we use to
make that a reality?
Yes, so what tools do you giveparents who may not be
exemplifying?
You know their goals yet.
Rita Morris (03:50):
So it's grounding them in their values of like.
Okay, let's do a valuesclarification exercise, and it's
a values clarification exercisethat's really designed for
parents and co-parents and then,reminding you, when you are
triggered, ask yourself thatreally important question like,
am I acting in my kid's bestinterest?
(04:12):
And it's really a big part ofthe work that I do is really
shifting mindset.
For example, I had a clientthat I was working with this
morning and these parents havevery different parenting styles
and we were sort of teasing itout this morning and really what
(04:32):
it came down to was they'reeach acting in a way that they
believe is in the best interestof the kids and so, instead of
finding themselves frustrated bythe other parents, parenting
it's remembering okay, this is,you know, this is what they
believe to be in the bestinterest of the kids.
That being said, they are notputting their kids in danger.
Their kids are not unsafe.
(04:54):
It's just a difference inparenting styles, and that's an
important distinction to make.
Cary Jacobson (04:58):
Absolutely, which actually leads me to another
question, which is how do youhelp parents who do have
differing parenting styles?
Because that's something that Isee often.
You know, when I'm working witha couple is.
It's not that they disagree on,you know, the schedule or that
(05:19):
sort of thing.
It's some of the nuances ofthat have not really a legal.
There's no legal solution,right, it's really.
How are we going to parentthese children?
And you know, so many divorceshappen because there is a
difference in parenting style.
Yes, how do you help parentsaddress that?
Rita Morris (05:46):
So what I do is I like to invite parents to, as I
say, step out onto the balconyand take a long term view and
ask yourself the question of howcan my child benefit from this?
I often use the example ofevery single year, our kids go
to a different teacher and thatteacher has a different style of
(06:07):
teaching.
And are your all of your kidsneeds going to be met by that
style of teaching?
No, are some of those styles ofteaching going to be difficult
for your child?
Yes, but what are the benefitsof that?
Right, and I think the benefitis is that you're teaching your
kids to be well-rounded, you'reteaching them resilience and
(06:28):
you're teaching them how to copein different environments.
Cary Jacobson (06:34):
That's a great analogy, because I've never
really thought of it in thatsense.
But we all have to deal withdifferent peoples in our lives
who have different personalitiesand different approaches to
things, and so that is.
It's the same thing, even ifthey're your parents.
Rita Morris (06:51):
Absolutely.
Cary Jacobson (06:52):
Yes.
What are some of the biggestchallenges parents face when
they're starting theirco-parenting journey as a
separated or non-coupled youknow, after a divorce or a
separation?
Rita Morris (07:08):
What I see a lot is that people are stuck in the
grief, in the anger, in theresentment, and it's really hard
to break free of that.
And that's one of the thingsthat I really love about helping
people to get grounded in theirvalues, because then we say you
can use those values as yourarmor.
(07:29):
Because people often think, oh,I'll never be able to process
through all of those feelings,and is it ideal if you can
process through the sadness andthe grief 100%?
It's not necessarily a luxury,as you're learning how to co
parent right, there's not thetime, there's not the money,
there's all the things.
So it's coming back to what'simportant to you and what you
(07:52):
want your outcome to be andbeing able to say, okay, I can
protect myself from this andthat will enable me to co-parent
.
It's like really essentially,it's setting healthy boundaries.
Cary Jacobson (08:07):
Right, and do you recommend parents use any sort
of tools as far as like settingboundaries, whether that's
co-parenting apps to communicatewith one another or any other?
You know tools that that theycould use.
Rita Morris (08:25):
You know what I do often recommend tools, but what
I really try to work withparents to do is to create their
own system that works for them,right?
So people will say you knowonly communicate, and you know I
don't know our family wizard.
It's really figuring out whatworks for you.
You know I talk about.
(08:45):
You know every workplaceoperates on an operating system,
right, employee operatingsystem.
So really what we're trying todo is to develop our
co-parenting operating systemand so it's whatever works for
you.
You know, like people say well,they say that we should have
dinner together once a week as afamily, and yeah, that's an
ideal.
But if you hate each other andthere's going to be tension and
(09:08):
conflict, that doesn't helpanybody, right?
Absolutely not.
And it's giving permission tobe human and to say nope.
That doesn't work for us, youknow.
Cary Jacobson (09:20):
Yeah, you have to definitely find what is going
to be the best fit for yourparticular family, and that so
varies, you know, from situationto situation.
Rita Morris (09:40):
Yeah, one of the tools that I work with going to
communicate like what method ofcommunication?
How often?
What's the understanding for aresponse time?
So everything is very clear.
So, like once a week before wetransition, here's kids news and
and we even outline like OK,social, emotional, academic,
(10:01):
extracurriculars, like it's verystructured academic
extracurriculars, like it's verystructured, right I?
Cary Jacobson (10:10):
I very much appreciate those types of
communication tools so thateverybody's on the same page,
everyone knows exactly what tobe looking for, and some people
need that structure a lot moreso than you know the random or
text messages or emails you knowsome people just need to have.
I find that when I'm workingwith some couples, each person
(10:36):
has differing opinions as to howmuch communication.
There's some people that wantcommunication constantly, like
an update on all of the things,and there are others that want
the high level, like give me the, give me the brief update, and
so I think helping parentsfigure out what's going to work
(10:59):
for both of them is critical.
Rita Morris (11:03):
Yes, yeah, absolutely Helping them to
figure out what's going to workfor both and maybe each one
bending a little bit towardswhat the other person needs,
because that's what's good fortheir kids, right.
Cary Jacobson (11:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Now, how does ongoing conflictbetween parents impact children,
both emotionally andpsychologically?
This is something that you know.
We hear about often, and oftenyou know it's some people will
choose to stay in a marriagebecause they, you know, want to
(11:39):
do it for the kids, because they, you know, want to do it for
the kids.
But what they're notnecessarily recognizing is what
the conflict, how that isimpacting their children.
Rita Morris (11:47):
Yes, I say probably every day.
It's not your family structurethat's going to really determine
how well your kids are going todo, it's your family dynamic,
right Right.
So if you're stuck in a dynamicwhere there's conflict all the
time, whether you're married oryou're not married, it's, you
know, your kid's self-esteem isgoing to suffer, their level of
(12:10):
anxiety, their level ofdepression, their ability to
establish and maintainrelationships on their own and
not just romantic relationships,friendships, because every day,
with every interaction, we aremodeling for them how to do this
.
Cary Jacobson (12:27):
Right.
Rita Morris (12:28):
Right.
And so again, it's sort ofbrings you back to that question
of how do you want your childto describe this in 10 years?
Yeah, you know.
So the conflict, it's, inessence, it's the conflict
that's really going to hurt yourkids, right, yeah, and it, you
know, it'll affect school, it'llaffect every aspect of their
(12:51):
lives emotional, social,spiritual, every single aspect
of their lives.
Cary Jacobson (12:57):
Yeah, and I think that's what people miss often,
is it like you said?
It's not the structure of yourfamily unit but the dynamic
between between everyone and howthat is truly impacting the
kids.
Rita Morris (13:13):
Yeah, and how the kids can become vehicles for
that dynamic.
Cary Jacobson (13:19):
Right, so tell me more about that.
Rita Morris (13:22):
So kids will learn to navigate the dynamic and
they're going to learn to tobend and stretch in order to
keep the peace, in order toappease both sets of parents.
You know, and you don't wantkids to have to do that because
they're kids, they're.
You know they shouldn't have itLike, they shouldn't have to
take the emotional temperatureof either parent when they walk
(13:45):
in the door and figure out okay,how do I navigate this?
Cary Jacobson (13:51):
Right yeah, is that what you mean when you're
talking about putting thechild's piece first?
Rita Morris (13:57):
Yes, yes, that's exactly what I mean.
Cary Jacobson (14:04):
Okay, so what are some of the practical ways for?
Rita Morris (14:05):
parents to do that.
So it's funny.
There are some things that youwouldn't even think about, right
, like you know, people talkabout.
You don't want to bad mouthyour ex in front of your kids a
hundred percent but you alsowant to be really careful about
what you say to who.
But you also want to be reallycareful about what you say to
who.
So say, for example, you're at asoccer game and you're sitting
next to a friend and talkingabout your co-parent in a
(14:28):
negative way and that friend'skid hears, overhears this
conversation, because they'resitting on the other side of
their parent Right now.
(14:52):
They're going to go back toyour kid and say this is what
your mom said about your dad, orthis is what your dad said
about your mom, right?
So it's the smaller kind ofnuances that we wouldn't
necessarily think about.
So it's really choosing and ZWell, kids are kids and they're
going to go into your textmessages and they're going to
see what you just said abouttheir other parent and then
they're going to shift theirbehavior based on what you say
and what they think you need.
So it's being it's reallyimportant to be really clear
(15:13):
about the boundaries of who andwhen you have those
conversations with.
It's not realistic to say onlyhave them with professionals,
because we all have needs.
But it's again, it's the timingand the placement.
Cary Jacobson (15:30):
Right, right, yeah, and it is an obvious one,
but not necessarily using yourchildren as a sounding board of
our grievances.
Rita Morris (15:45):
It's in.
People do it in ways that theydon't even realize.
You know, like it's a?
It's a very simple like oh, soI had a.
I had a situation a couple ofweeks ago where a little girl
had a school project and the momforgot to get the school
supplies for the school project.
And the dad was like your momis so forgetful, like not even
(16:06):
thinking right, what's the seedyou're planting here?
About the mom?
You know, I wish your mom couldbe more responsible and just
get these things done.
Okay, how about mom's human?
Let's go get some poster board.
Right, right.
Cary Jacobson (16:21):
Yeah, and I would also stretch it because I know
that generally, when we'retalking about co-parenting,
we're talking about younger kids, but this, in my opinion, even
goes to those older kids andadults, because they're still
(16:41):
your kids and they're stillfeeling like they are being
pulled between parents, even asthey're older.
Rita Morris (16:51):
It's especially risky when your kids are older,
because it's easier, because youthink developmentally they can
handle this, they have theknowledge, they have the skills,
but at the end of the day,you're still their parents and
they still deserve to be able tohave their own relationships
undiluted by each parent, youknow.
And older kids become equallyas unmoored by a divorce as
(17:14):
younger kids do.
We tend to think that theydon't, but they really do, you
know.
Imagine you have a kid who'soff at college and now their
parents are getting divorced and, like now they're coming home
and having to navigate holidaysbetween two homes at a time when
they're trying to differentiateanyway.
And now, now they're having tofigure out how do I manage this?
(17:35):
And both my parents really wantto see me, but really, quite
frankly, I just kind of want tohang out with my friends, so you
know.
So it's equally, as you know,disconcerting for older kids as
it is for younger kids.
Cary Jacobson (17:48):
Absolutely.
What role does being aco-parent coach play in
supporting these families?
Rita Morris (18:04):
What do you do with families to help support their
co-parenting relationship?
A lot of things, you know.
It's a lot of mindset work,it's a lot of teaching skills
and it's it's, I think, the mostimportant piece is really being
able to help people anchor intokeeping the focus on what's.
(18:24):
What do my kids need?
Am I making this decision basedon what I think my kids need,
or is this some kind of arevenge plot?
You know, really being able toask yourself those hard
questions and then celebratingwhen you do it well.
Cary Jacobson (18:40):
Right, absolutely .
I think that's something that,for lots of places in our lives,
we don't necessarily docelebrate when we do something
well.
Rita Morris (18:49):
Yes, yeah, yes.
Part of what I love about theprogram that I have is at the
end we bring the kids into theprogram and what is part of the
program?
We have the parents create whatwe call a co-parenting
commitment and they share.
That comes over their faceswhen they hear their parents
make this commitment in writingand out loud to each other and
(19:20):
to them that we are going to doour best.
That's awesome.
Yeah, yeah.
Cary Jacobson (19:27):
That actually leads me to another question,
which was going to be obviously,at least it feels obvious to me
, so correct me if I'm wrong.
Co-parent coaching works betterwhen you are working with both
parents, but are there scenarioswhere you also work with an
individual parent, maybe becausethe other person is just
(19:48):
reluctant or not unwilling toparticipate?
Rita Morris (19:52):
All the time, and I do.
You know I do see improvedoutcomes either way.
As you said, it's definitelyideal if I have both parents,
but even a simple shift in termsof like a boundary that you can
set will will change a dynamicRight.
So, yeah, I absolutely can workwith just one parent.
Cary Jacobson (20:13):
Okay, that's helpful to know because you know
there again in my work andworking with couples, you know,
in mediation there is often in ascenario where one parent may
be willing and the other parentmay not necessarily be as
understanding or as willing toparticipate, necessarily be as
(20:38):
understanding or as willing toparticipate, but you know they
want that one person wants toimprove things as much as they
can.
Obviously, you know it helps ifboth people are on board with
making those shifts.
But I do agree that you know,even when it's just one person
shifting the mindset, if nothingelse else or setting that
boundary can improve thereaction even from the other
(21:00):
person.
Rita Morris (21:01):
Absolutely.
And you know, it's funnybecause I what I see a lot is
I'll have one parent that I'mworking with and then the other
parent will sort of start to seesome of the changes and then
they'll want to come along anddo the work as well.
So it's I I love when thathappens.
It's sort of like proof thatit's making a difference.
So I do see that a lot, butabsolutely I can I have, you
(21:23):
know, many, many times, workwith just one parent.
Cary Jacobson (21:26):
Yeah, when you're working with parents, how do
you help them reframe conflictso that they can work towards
solutions?
How do you help them reframeconflict so?
Rita Morris (21:36):
that they can work towards solutions.
So there's a couple of thingsthat I do.
One of them is to ask them toreally think about what is this
really about?
Is this really about your kid?
And digging into that.
I had a couple that I workedwith a few years back where the
daughter was going intokindergarten and the mom was
(21:58):
very insistent that she do halfday kindergarten.
The dad was insistent that shedo full day, and when we pulled
it all apart, it really was.
Dad was going to be feelingreally left out because mom
would have more time, right, so,okay, so, so this is not really
about kindergarten, right?
So when we figured that out, wewere able to come up with a
(22:19):
solution.
So it's really trying to figureout what is the heart of this
conflict and once we get to theheart of it, okay, so what's the
solution?
Cary Jacobson (22:29):
Interesting, yeah , and sometimes it takes a
little while to get to that.
What really is at the heart ofthat?
Rita Morris (22:37):
Sometimes it takes, yes, a couple of sessions, and
sometimes it means I work withone parent for a couple of weeks
and then I work with the otherparent, and then we come back
together, yeah, and figure itout.
Cary Jacobson (22:51):
What advice do you give a parent who is feeling
hopeless about having apeaceful co-parenting
relationship?
You know, maybe it's been highconflict work for a while and
they're not.
They're doing the work, butthey're not seeing a shift in
the other person.
Rita Morris (23:08):
Then it's really anchoring in.
And again it sort of comes backto anchoring in your why.
Why am I making these shifts?
I'm making these shifts becauseI want the best for my kid and
holding on to the understandingthat we can't, for better or not
, or better or worse, changeother people.
And it's really important toknow, even as you go into
(23:30):
co-parent coaching I can'tchange that other person, but
I'm still going to work withwhat's important to me and I'm
going to stay in that and I'mgoing to accept.
It's working on acceptanceright.
You know this is how myco-parent operates in the world
and I'm not going to change thatand that's a really hard piece
to accept.
But once you kind of say it outloud enough times and you know,
(23:56):
I say to people just like sortof fake it till you make it like
I'm accepting you as you are.
I'm accepting you as you are.
I know this is how you and thepiece that they gain from that
is amazing.
Cary Jacobson (24:08):
Yeah, recognizing that they're not going to be
able to change the other personand, honestly, if they had been
able to, then they may not haveseparated to begin with.
Rita Morris (24:18):
And that's what I say all the time.
You know and I also offer youknow you got divorced because
you wanted the conflict to stop,right, and if it doesn't stop,
what's the point of puttingeverybody through this Right?
Cary Jacobson (24:31):
Right, yeah, a hundred percent.
Yes, right, right, yeah, ahundred percent.
Well, how can parents reset ifmaybe they've already made some
mistakes in their co-parentingjourney?
We kind of talked about that alittle bit, but maybe they're
trying to make another shift.
Rita Morris (24:51):
What types of things can they do?
Do you mean with their kids, orwith their co-parent, or both
either?
Okay, um, you know, I would sayhonestly with your kids.
It's kind of about owning it,you know, like owning your
mistake and connecting with themon emotional level.
You know, I did this and I feellike I pulled you into the
(25:12):
middle of it in that way and I'mreally sorry.
And here's what I'm going to dodifferently next time, okay,
yeah, um, and, and in many waysthe same with your co-parent,
like you don't.
You know there's a lot ofvulnerability in the apology, so
it doesn't have to be that deep, but it's like, hey, can we
just can we start lookingtowards the future and doing
things differently?
(25:32):
You know this isn't working forus or for our kids, so let's
just try to do this a little bitdifferently.
That's wonderful, yeah.
Also, I say to people all thetime you don't have to engage in
every argument that you'reinvited to.
Cary Jacobson (25:49):
Absolutely yeah, that's one of those boundary
setting right Like and onlyresponding to those things that
need a response.
Rita Morris (26:01):
There's no need to go back to three years ago when
X, y and Z happened.
That doesn't benefit your kidsin any way.
Cary Jacobson (26:08):
Yeah, Absolutely Well.
Rita, thank you so much forsharing your wisdom and your
compassion with us today.
I greatly appreciate it.
How can our listeners learnmore about you and the services
that you provide?
Rita Morris (26:21):
They can go to my website it's thecoparentspath.
com.
Or.
People are always welcome toreach out and call me, schedule
a complimentary consult.
I'm happy to do that.
My phone number is 781-492-6082.
And I'm always happy to hearfrom people.
Cary Jacobson (26:39):
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
We'll be sure to put yourwebsite in the show notes and
for our listeners.
If you or someone you knowneeds legal support through
divorce, custody or co-parenting, we at Jacobson Family Law are
here to help.
Make sure you schedule aconsultation on our website,
which is JacobsonFamilyLaw.
com, and if you found thisepisode of Divorce Diaries
(27:00):
Lessons from the Trencheshelpful, don't forget to
subscribe, share this episodewith a friend and leave a review
.
Thanks for listening and untilnext time.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson.
Thanks so much.
Intro/Close (27:14):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLaw.
com or call 443-726-4912 forsupport and guidance.
And really, what it came down to was they're each
acting in a way that theybelieve is in the best interest
of the kids, and so, instead offinding themselves frustrated by
the other parents, parentingit's remembering OK, this is,
you know, this is what theybelieve to be in the best
interest of the kids.
That being said, they are notputting their kids in danger.
(00:20):
Their kids are not unsafe.
It's just a difference inparenting styles, and that's an
important distinction to make.
Intro/Close (00:27):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:49):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, where we share realstories and expert guidance to
help you navigate divorce andlife after separation with
resilience and clarity.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,divorce attorney, mediator and
advocate for out-of-courtsolutions, and today's episode
is all about one of the mostimportant and most challenging
(01:11):
parts of divorce, which isco-parenting.
Our guest today is Rita Morris.
She is a certified co-parentcoach and mediator.
Rita helps parents co-parentfrom the inside out, anchored in
their why and focused onprotecting the child's peace for
a calmer, stronger future.
With her background in mentalhealth and conflict resolution,
(01:34):
she blends emotional insightwith practical strategies to
help families move beyond theconflict and create healthier
dynamics for children.
Rita, welcome and thank you somuch for being with us today.
Rita Morris (01:46):
Thank you so much.
I'm really excited to be here.
Cary Jacobson (01:49):
Well, I would love for you to share what you
mean by co-parenting from theinside out.
What does that mean to you?
Rita Morris (01:57):
So I've been doing this work for a long time and
one of the things that I noticedis that you can talk about
behavior change from now untilthe end of time.
You can talk aboutcommunication skills and
conflict resolution skills andall the things right, but if
you're not anchored in what'simportant to you, it's really
(02:18):
easy to get caught up in all ofthe what I like to call the
emotional muck that was yourmarriage.
So parenting from you know,co-parenting from the inside out
is why do I want to do this?
Well, I want to do this.
Well, for the sake of my kidsand really anchoring in that,
and then asking yourself, youknow, with every interaction am
(02:40):
I parenting?
Am I co-parenting from myvalues and from my why am I
parenting?
Am I co-parenting from myvalues and from my why?
Cary Jacobson (02:46):
That's amazing.
We often hear you know that weneed to know the why behind
doing something, and so this isjust another example of that and
really making sure that theseparents are focused on the
children being the why and whatit is that they want to come out
of that co-parentingrelationship.
Rita Morris (03:08):
Yes, one of the questions I ask all the time is
in 10 years, how do you wantyour kids to describe their
childhood Right?
Cary Jacobson (03:16):
Yeah, and I'm sure you get a variety of
answers to that.
Rita Morris (03:22):
And then the next question always is so is your
behavior now in line with thatvision?
And if not, that's OK, becausewe're all human, it's just how
do we get there Right, Then what?
Cary Jacobson (03:33):
what changes can we make and tools can we use to
make that a reality?
Yes, so what tools do you giveparents who may not be
exemplifying?
You know their goals yet.
Rita Morris (03:50):
So it's grounding them in their values of like.
Okay, let's do a valuesclarification exercise, and it's
a values clarification exercisethat's really designed for
parents and co-parents and then,reminding you, when you are
triggered, ask yourself thatreally important question like,
am I acting in my kid's bestinterest?
(04:12):
And it's really a big part ofthe work that I do is really
shifting mindset.
For example, I had a clientthat I was working with this
morning and these parents havevery different parenting styles
and we were sort of teasing itout this morning and really what
(04:32):
it came down to was they'reeach acting in a way that they
believe is in the best interestof the kids and so, instead of
finding themselves frustrated bythe other parents, parenting
it's remembering okay, this is,you know, this is what they
believe to be in the bestinterest of the kids.
That being said, they are notputting their kids in danger.
Their kids are not unsafe.
(04:54):
It's just a difference inparenting styles, and that's an
important distinction to make.
Cary Jacobson (04:58):
Absolutely, which actually leads me to another
question, which is how do youhelp parents who do have
differing parenting styles?
Because that's something that Isee often.
You know, when I'm working witha couple is.
It's not that they disagree on,you know, the schedule or that
(05:19):
sort of thing.
It's some of the nuances ofthat have not really a legal.
There's no legal solution,right, it's really.
How are we going to parentthese children?
And you know, so many divorceshappen because there is a
difference in parenting style.
Yes, how do you help parentsaddress that?
Rita Morris (05:46):
So what I do is I like to invite parents to, as I
say, step out onto the balconyand take a long term view and
ask yourself the question of howcan my child benefit from this?
I often use the example ofevery single year, our kids go
to a different teacher and thatteacher has a different style of
(06:07):
teaching.
And are your all of your kidsneeds going to be met by that
style of teaching?
No, are some of those styles ofteaching going to be difficult
for your child?
Yes, but what are the benefitsof that?
Right, and I think the benefitis is that you're teaching your
kids to be well-rounded, you'reteaching them resilience and
(06:28):
you're teaching them how to copein different environments.
Cary Jacobson (06:34):
That's a great analogy, because I've never
really thought of it in thatsense.
But we all have to deal withdifferent peoples in our lives
who have different personalitiesand different approaches to
things, and so that is.
It's the same thing, even ifthey're your parents.
Rita Morris (06:51):
Absolutely.
Cary Jacobson (06:52):
Yes.
What are some of the biggestchallenges parents face when
they're starting theirco-parenting journey as a
separated or non-coupled youknow, after a divorce or a
separation?
Rita Morris (07:08):
What I see a lot is that people are stuck in the
grief, in the anger, in theresentment, and it's really hard
to break free of that.
And that's one of the thingsthat I really love about helping
people to get grounded in theirvalues, because then we say you
can use those values as yourarmor.
(07:29):
Because people often think, oh,I'll never be able to process
through all of those feelings,and is it ideal if you can
process through the sadness andthe grief 100%?
It's not necessarily a luxury,as you're learning how to co
parent right, there's not thetime, there's not the money,
there's all the things.
So it's coming back to what'simportant to you and what you
(07:52):
want your outcome to be andbeing able to say, okay, I can
protect myself from this andthat will enable me to co-parent
.
It's like really essentially,it's setting healthy boundaries.
Cary Jacobson (08:07):
Right, and do you recommend parents use any sort
of tools as far as like settingboundaries, whether that's
co-parenting apps to communicatewith one another or any other?
You know tools that that theycould use.
Rita Morris (08:25):
You know what I do often recommend tools, but what
I really try to work withparents to do is to create their
own system that works for them,right?
So people will say you knowonly communicate, and you know I
don't know our family wizard.
It's really figuring out whatworks for you.
You know I talk about.
(08:45):
You know every workplaceoperates on an operating system,
right, employee operatingsystem.
So really what we're trying todo is to develop our
co-parenting operating systemand so it's whatever works for
you.
You know, like people say well,they say that we should have
dinner together once a week as afamily, and yeah, that's an
ideal.
But if you hate each other andthere's going to be tension and
(09:08):
conflict, that doesn't helpanybody, right?
Absolutely not.
And it's giving permission tobe human and to say nope.
That doesn't work for us, youknow.
Cary Jacobson (09:20):
Yeah, you have to definitely find what is going
to be the best fit for yourparticular family, and that so
varies, you know, from situationto situation.
Rita Morris (09:40):
Yeah, one of the tools that I work with going to
communicate like what method ofcommunication?
How often?
What's the understanding for aresponse time?
So everything is very clear.
So, like once a week before wetransition, here's kids news and
and we even outline like OK,social, emotional, academic,
(10:01):
extracurriculars, like it's verystructured academic
extracurriculars, like it's verystructured, right I?
Cary Jacobson (10:10):
I very much appreciate those types of
communication tools so thateverybody's on the same page,
everyone knows exactly what tobe looking for, and some people
need that structure a lot moreso than you know the random or
text messages or emails you knowsome people just need to have.
I find that when I'm workingwith some couples, each person
(10:36):
has differing opinions as to howmuch communication.
There's some people that wantcommunication constantly, like
an update on all of the things,and there are others that want
the high level, like give me the, give me the brief update, and
so I think helping parentsfigure out what's going to work
(10:59):
for both of them is critical.
Rita Morris (11:03):
Yes, yeah, absolutely Helping them to
figure out what's going to workfor both and maybe each one
bending a little bit towardswhat the other person needs,
because that's what's good fortheir kids, right.
Cary Jacobson (11:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Now, how does ongoing conflictbetween parents impact children,
both emotionally andpsychologically?
This is something that you know.
We hear about often, and oftenyou know it's some people will
choose to stay in a marriagebecause they, you know, want to
(11:39):
do it for the kids, because they, you know, want to do it for
the kids.
But what they're notnecessarily recognizing is what
the conflict, how that isimpacting their children.
Rita Morris (11:47):
Yes, I say probably every day.
It's not your family structurethat's going to really determine
how well your kids are going todo, it's your family dynamic,
right Right.
So if you're stuck in a dynamicwhere there's conflict all the
time, whether you're married oryou're not married, it's, you
know, your kid's self-esteem isgoing to suffer, their level of
(12:10):
anxiety, their level ofdepression, their ability to
establish and maintainrelationships on their own and
not just romantic relationships,friendships, because every day,
with every interaction, we aremodeling for them how to do this
.
Cary Jacobson (12:27):
Right.
Rita Morris (12:28):
Right.
And so again, it's sort ofbrings you back to that question
of how do you want your childto describe this in 10 years?
Yeah, you know.
So the conflict, it's, inessence, it's the conflict
that's really going to hurt yourkids, right, yeah, and it, you
know, it'll affect school, it'llaffect every aspect of their
(12:51):
lives emotional, social,spiritual, every single aspect
of their lives.
Cary Jacobson (12:57):
Yeah, and I think that's what people miss often,
is it like you said?
It's not the structure of yourfamily unit but the dynamic
between between everyone and howthat is truly impacting the
kids.
Rita Morris (13:13):
Yeah, and how the kids can become vehicles for
that dynamic.
Cary Jacobson (13:19):
Right, so tell me more about that.
Rita Morris (13:22):
So kids will learn to navigate the dynamic and
they're going to learn to tobend and stretch in order to
keep the peace, in order toappease both sets of parents.
You know, and you don't wantkids to have to do that because
they're kids, they're.
You know they shouldn't have itLike, they shouldn't have to
take the emotional temperatureof either parent when they walk
(13:45):
in the door and figure out okay,how do I navigate this?
Cary Jacobson (13:51):
Right yeah, is that what you mean when you're
talking about putting thechild's piece first?
Rita Morris (13:57):
Yes, yes, that's exactly what I mean.
Cary Jacobson (14:04):
Okay, so what are some of the practical ways for?
Rita Morris (14:05):
parents to do that.
So it's funny.
There are some things that youwouldn't even think about, right
, like you know, people talkabout.
You don't want to bad mouthyour ex in front of your kids a
hundred percent but you alsowant to be really careful about
what you say to who.
But you also want to be reallycareful about what you say to
who.
So say, for example, you're at asoccer game and you're sitting
next to a friend and talkingabout your co-parent in a
(14:28):
negative way and that friend'skid hears, overhears this
conversation, because they'resitting on the other side of
their parent Right now.
(14:52):
They're going to go back toyour kid and say this is what
your mom said about your dad, orthis is what your dad said
about your mom, right?
So it's the smaller kind ofnuances that we wouldn't
necessarily think about.
So it's really choosing and ZWell, kids are kids and they're
going to go into your textmessages and they're going to
see what you just said abouttheir other parent and then
they're going to shift theirbehavior based on what you say
and what they think you need.
So it's being it's reallyimportant to be really clear
(15:13):
about the boundaries of who andwhen you have those
conversations with.
It's not realistic to say onlyhave them with professionals,
because we all have needs.
But it's again, it's the timingand the placement.
Cary Jacobson (15:30):
Right, right, yeah, and it is an obvious one,
but not necessarily using yourchildren as a sounding board of
our grievances.
Rita Morris (15:45):
It's in.
People do it in ways that theydon't even realize.
You know, like it's a?
It's a very simple like oh, soI had a.
I had a situation a couple ofweeks ago where a little girl
had a school project and the momforgot to get the school
supplies for the school project.
And the dad was like your momis so forgetful, like not even
(16:06):
thinking right, what's the seedyou're planting here?
About the mom?
You know, I wish your mom couldbe more responsible and just
get these things done.
Okay, how about mom's human?
Let's go get some poster board.
Right, right.
Cary Jacobson (16:21):
Yeah, and I would also stretch it because I know
that generally, when we'retalking about co-parenting,
we're talking about younger kids, but this, in my opinion, even
goes to those older kids andadults, because they're still
(16:41):
your kids and they're stillfeeling like they are being
pulled between parents, even asthey're older.
Rita Morris (16:51):
It's especially risky when your kids are older,
because it's easier, because youthink developmentally they can
handle this, they have theknowledge, they have the skills,
but at the end of the day,you're still their parents and
they still deserve to be able tohave their own relationships
undiluted by each parent, youknow.
And older kids become equallyas unmoored by a divorce as
(17:14):
younger kids do.
We tend to think that theydon't, but they really do, you
know.
Imagine you have a kid who'soff at college and now their
parents are getting divorced and, like now they're coming home
and having to navigate holidaysbetween two homes at a time when
they're trying to differentiateanyway.
And now, now they're having tofigure out how do I manage this?
(17:35):
And both my parents really wantto see me, but really, quite
frankly, I just kind of want tohang out with my friends, so you
know.
So it's equally, as you know,disconcerting for older kids as
it is for younger kids.
Cary Jacobson (17:48):
Absolutely.
What role does being aco-parent coach play in
supporting these families?
Rita Morris (18:04):
What do you do with families to help support their
co-parenting relationship?
A lot of things, you know.
It's a lot of mindset work,it's a lot of teaching skills
and it's it's, I think, the mostimportant piece is really being
able to help people anchor intokeeping the focus on what's.
(18:24):
What do my kids need?
Am I making this decision basedon what I think my kids need,
or is this some kind of arevenge plot?
You know, really being able toask yourself those hard
questions and then celebratingwhen you do it well.
Cary Jacobson (18:40):
Right, absolutely .
I think that's something that,for lots of places in our lives,
we don't necessarily docelebrate when we do something
well.
Rita Morris (18:49):
Yes, yeah, yes.
Part of what I love about theprogram that I have is at the
end we bring the kids into theprogram and what is part of the
program?
We have the parents create whatwe call a co-parenting
commitment and they share.
That comes over their faceswhen they hear their parents
make this commitment in writingand out loud to each other and
(19:20):
to them that we are going to doour best.
That's awesome.
Yeah, yeah.
Cary Jacobson (19:27):
That actually leads me to another question,
which was going to be obviously,at least it feels obvious to me
, so correct me if I'm wrong.
Co-parent coaching works betterwhen you are working with both
parents, but are there scenarioswhere you also work with an
individual parent, maybe becausethe other person is just
(19:48):
reluctant or not unwilling toparticipate?
Rita Morris (19:52):
All the time, and I do.
You know I do see improvedoutcomes either way.
As you said, it's definitelyideal if I have both parents,
but even a simple shift in termsof like a boundary that you can
set will will change a dynamicRight.
So, yeah, I absolutely can workwith just one parent.
Cary Jacobson (20:13):
Okay, that's helpful to know because you know
there again in my work andworking with couples, you know,
in mediation there is often in ascenario where one parent may
be willing and the other parentmay not necessarily be as
understanding or as willing toparticipate, necessarily be as
(20:38):
understanding or as willing toparticipate, but you know they
want that one person wants toimprove things as much as they
can.
Obviously, you know it helps ifboth people are on board with
making those shifts.
But I do agree that you know,even when it's just one person
shifting the mindset, if nothingelse else or setting that
boundary can improve thereaction even from the other
(21:00):
person.
Rita Morris (21:01):
Absolutely.
And you know, it's funnybecause I what I see a lot is
I'll have one parent that I'mworking with and then the other
parent will sort of start to seesome of the changes and then
they'll want to come along anddo the work as well.
So it's I I love when thathappens.
It's sort of like proof thatit's making a difference.
So I do see that a lot, butabsolutely I can I have, you
(21:23):
know, many, many times, workwith just one parent.
Cary Jacobson (21:26):
Yeah, when you're working with parents, how do
you help them reframe conflictso that they can work towards
solutions?
How do you help them reframeconflict so?
Rita Morris (21:36):
that they can work towards solutions.
So there's a couple of thingsthat I do.
One of them is to ask them toreally think about what is this
really about?
Is this really about your kid?
And digging into that.
I had a couple that I workedwith a few years back where the
daughter was going intokindergarten and the mom was
(21:58):
very insistent that she do halfday kindergarten.
The dad was insistent that shedo full day, and when we pulled
it all apart, it really was.
Dad was going to be feelingreally left out because mom
would have more time, right, so,okay, so, so this is not really
about kindergarten, right?
So when we figured that out, wewere able to come up with a
(22:19):
solution.
So it's really trying to figureout what is the heart of this
conflict and once we get to theheart of it, okay, so what's the
solution?
Cary Jacobson (22:29):
Interesting, yeah , and sometimes it takes a
little while to get to that.
What really is at the heart ofthat?
Rita Morris (22:37):
Sometimes it takes, yes, a couple of sessions, and
sometimes it means I work withone parent for a couple of weeks
and then I work with the otherparent, and then we come back
together, yeah, and figure itout.
Cary Jacobson (22:51):
What advice do you give a parent who is feeling
hopeless about having apeaceful co-parenting
relationship?
You know, maybe it's been highconflict work for a while and
they're not.
They're doing the work, butthey're not seeing a shift in
the other person.
Rita Morris (23:08):
Then it's really anchoring in.
And again it sort of comes backto anchoring in your why.
Why am I making these shifts?
I'm making these shifts becauseI want the best for my kid and
holding on to the understandingthat we can't, for better or not
, or better or worse, changeother people.
And it's really important toknow, even as you go into
(23:30):
co-parent coaching I can'tchange that other person, but
I'm still going to work withwhat's important to me and I'm
going to stay in that and I'mgoing to accept.
It's working on acceptanceright.
You know this is how myco-parent operates in the world
and I'm not going to change thatand that's a really hard piece
to accept.
But once you kind of say it outloud enough times and you know,
(23:56):
I say to people just like sortof fake it till you make it like
I'm accepting you as you are.
I'm accepting you as you are.
I know this is how you and thepiece that they gain from that
is amazing.
Cary Jacobson (24:08):
Yeah, recognizing that they're not going to be
able to change the other personand, honestly, if they had been
able to, then they may not haveseparated to begin with.
Rita Morris (24:18):
And that's what I say all the time.
You know and I also offer youknow you got divorced because
you wanted the conflict to stop,right, and if it doesn't stop,
what's the point of puttingeverybody through this Right?
Cary Jacobson (24:31):
Right, yeah, a hundred percent.
Yes, right, right, yeah, ahundred percent.
Well, how can parents reset ifmaybe they've already made some
mistakes in their co-parentingjourney?
We kind of talked about that alittle bit, but maybe they're
trying to make another shift.
Rita Morris (24:51):
What types of things can they do?
Do you mean with their kids, orwith their co-parent, or both
either?
Okay, um, you know, I would sayhonestly with your kids.
It's kind of about owning it,you know, like owning your
mistake and connecting with themon emotional level.
You know, I did this and I feellike I pulled you into the
(25:12):
middle of it in that way and I'mreally sorry.
And here's what I'm going to dodifferently next time, okay,
yeah, um, and, and in many waysthe same with your co-parent,
like you don't.
You know there's a lot ofvulnerability in the apology, so
it doesn't have to be that deep, but it's like, hey, can we
just can we start lookingtowards the future and doing
things differently?
(25:32):
You know this isn't working forus or for our kids, so let's
just try to do this a little bitdifferently.
That's wonderful, yeah.
Also, I say to people all thetime you don't have to engage in
every argument that you'reinvited to.
Cary Jacobson (25:49):
Absolutely yeah, that's one of those boundary
setting right Like and onlyresponding to those things that
need a response.
Rita Morris (26:01):
There's no need to go back to three years ago when
X, y and Z happened.
That doesn't benefit your kidsin any way.
Cary Jacobson (26:08):
Yeah, Absolutely Well.
Rita, thank you so much forsharing your wisdom and your
compassion with us today.
I greatly appreciate it.
How can our listeners learnmore about you and the services
that you provide?
Rita Morris (26:21):
They can go to my website it's thecoparentspath.
com.
Or.
People are always welcome toreach out and call me, schedule
a complimentary consult.
I'm happy to do that.
My phone number is 781-492-6082.
And I'm always happy to hearfrom people.
Cary Jacobson (26:39):
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
We'll be sure to put yourwebsite in the show notes and
for our listeners.
If you or someone you knowneeds legal support through
divorce, custody or co-parenting, we at Jacobson Family Law are
here to help.
Make sure you schedule aconsultation on our website,
which is JacobsonFamilyLaw.
com, and if you found thisepisode of Divorce Diaries
(27:00):
Lessons from the Trencheshelpful, don't forget to
subscribe, share this episodewith a friend and leave a review
.
Thanks for listening and untilnext time.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson.
Thanks so much.
Intro/Close (27:14):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLaw.
com or call 443-726-4912 forsupport and guidance.
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