April 1, 2025 • 33 mins
Divorce can be daunting, but with the right guidance, it becomes a journey of empowerment. Host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator, sits down with Lisa Lisser, Divorce Coach, to discuss the crucial role of divorce coaching in helping individuals navigate their emotional challenges, recognize their strengths, and communicate effectively during legal processes.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to learn more.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
you know, a light bulb went off and I realized
(00:02):
that divorce coaching could bethe perfect blend of all of my
skillsets, where I could be anadvocate, I could hold people's
hearts, I could help themrecognize that I see them and
they can do more than whatthey're doing now and they don't
have to do it alone.
And that's when I realized thatbeing a divorce coach was what
(00:25):
I needed to do.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Carrie
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, where we share realstories and expert insights to
help you navigate the divorceprocess with less stress and
more clarity.
I'm your host, keri Jacobson,and today I'm thrilled to
welcome Lisa Lisser to the show.
Lisa is a certified divorcecoach and a co-parenting
(01:12):
specialist who helps individualsnavigate the divorce with
confidence.
She's certified in BH2O, whichshe's going to tell us more
about later, and that's aco-parenting resource designed
to offer to ease post-divorceparenting challenges.
Lisa also hosts a podcastcalled Dishing on Divorce with
(01:34):
Lisa Lisser, and she is theco-author of Divorce Decoded a
manifesto for women navigatingdivorce and beyond.
Contributing to the chapteryour Guide on the Side
Navigating Divorce and Beyond.
Contributing to the chapteryour Guide on the Side Stories
from a Divorce Coach.
Lisa.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Carrie, thank you so much for having me Well let's
jump in.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I'd love for you to share with our listeners a
little bit more about yourjourney and what led you to
become a divorce coach.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Sure, you know we all have stories right, we all have
journeys, we all have paths,and none of us expected that
that journey was going to leadus here.
I mean, that's something Ireally want my clients to know,
your audience to know that youknow we're on the path that took
us to where we needed to be atthe time.
We needed to be there.
So, for me, I met my spouse incollege.
(02:28):
We were college sweethearts, wegot married, we had three kids
and we grew up together.
But, as I tend to say, we grewup in different directions and
it wasn't what we expected.
And I got divorced after a 20plus year marriage and it was
really shocking.
And even though I was anattorney who had stopped
(02:50):
practicing a while back, I felttotally like a fish out of water
and I didn't feel like I hadany support during the divorce
process, even though I hadseveral lawyers.
It went up to several differentlawyers to get through.
We started with mediation, itgot ugly, we got litigation.
It was just such a hard processand I didn't think there was
(03:14):
anyone out there who could helpme or was really there designed
to be my guide on the side.
And so that was that experience.
Moving forward since the divorce, I got a master's in Jewish
education.
I learned about spiritualcounseling and the power that
connecting to our souls throughancient texts helps us actually
(03:40):
realize that our issues havebeen around for a long time and
there is wisdom in places.
We didn't expect and I thoughtmaybe that would be a way to
help people going throughdivorce, but I wasn't sure how
to pitch it right.
I didn't know how to like sharewith attorneys that, like I,
can really hold your client'ssouls and I can help them, you
(04:01):
know, dig out from that uglyplace.
But I wasn't sure.
So I pursued my master's inJewish education.
I became an educator, acurriculum designer, and this is
after 20 plus years of being avolunteer and a leader in
nonprofit world, where I was apublic speaker and a program
(04:22):
designer.
I did lots of things.
We are all lots of things.
But in the course of mypursuing my career as a Jewish
educator, I learned that therewas this thing called divorce
coaching, which I had neverheard of and it was like you
know.
A light bulb went off and Irealized that divorce coaching
(04:44):
could be the perfect blend ofall of my skill sets.
Where I could be an advocate.
I could hold people's hearts, Icould help them recognize that
I see them and they can do morethan what they're doing now, and
they don't have to do it alone.
And that's when I realized thatbeing a divorce coach was what
(05:06):
I needed to do.
So I pivoted yet again and Igot certified in divorce
coaching, and here I am.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
That's quite a journey, Absolutely.
You know, kind of twist andturns and one thing leads to the
next and now you have foundyour place in the divorce
coaching world, which I stillthink so many people don't
necessarily know about.
It's becoming more popular and,you know, more known, but not
(05:40):
every attorney knows about itand definitely not every
attorney or mediator recommendsit to their clients.
So I don't think it, you know.
It's just not as publicized asI think it should be.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I think part of the problem is that we just don't
know what we don't know.
You know there's I was.
I did this landmark educationmany years ago when I was trying
to figure out what my directionwas and they shared that
there's.
You know what you know and youalso know a category of things
that you don't know.
(06:13):
Like I know I don't know how tospeak French right, I know, I
don't know that but the biggestcategory is the things that I
don't know, that I don't knowright, and so I didn't know that
I could get help, and I didn'tknow that I could get help from
someone who could coach me, andI didn't even know that I could
(06:35):
ask for that kind of help.
And all of those things aresymptoms of going through
divorce, because we feel likewe're supposed to be experts at
everything.
But we might be experts at ourlives.
We know our lives better thananyone else, but we are not
expert at divorce.
We have never done this beforeand we are terrified.
(06:56):
So the role of the divorcecoach is to take away some of
that fear, to allow my clientsto know that they are allowed to
get help, and maybe the mostcourageous thing is to actually
recognize you need help and askfor it, so that I give my
clients permission to do that.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Yeah, well, in your chapter of the Divorce Decoded
book that we worked on together,you talk about being that guy
on the side.
Can you share a little bitabout what that means for you
when you're working with yourclients who are going through
the divorce process?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Sure.
What that means to me is that Iam there to walk the path with
my client.
To me is that I am there towalk the path with my client.
So in some ways it's like aSherpa.
Right, the Sherpa has climbedthat mountain before, but the
Sherpa doesn't know everythingabout you and your strengths or
limitations.
So until you build thatrelationship with the Sherpa,
(08:01):
the steps they give you mightnot be the exact right steps.
So my job is to get to know myclients and to ask them the
questions that lead to questionsthey ask themselves.
So, in other words, like, ifthey ask me, so what am I going
to get in child support, I willsay, well, what do you want to
(08:23):
get and what do you think youreally need?
And what does child supporteven mean to you, right?
So like, help them reallydefine terms.
So that's kind of how I am theguide on the side and I help my
clients recognize that they havestrengths that they may not
(08:44):
realize they have.
So if someone is facing achallenging situation, I will
ask them something like so hasthere ever been a time in your
life when you had to stand upfor one of your kids or advocate
for something in school or dosome other kind of work for
(09:05):
someone else.
You know, what did you do then,when you weren't the person who
needed help, but someone elsewas?
And what I discover is thatpeople have all of these inner
strengths that they just don'tthink about when it comes to
helping themselves, becausethey're so focused on serving
(09:25):
other people that they don'tknow that they have the strength
inside to actually do it forthemselves too.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I agree that many people kind of going through the
process and I would sayespecially women, that is a
struggle that they, you know,have, because they do, you know,
so often do everything else foreveryone else and don't
necessarily put themselves first, and so it's making them
(09:55):
realize that they have thatstrength and that it's always
been there.
They just downplay it forthemselves, but if it was their
best friend they would be ableto find all of those great
qualities in that other person.
I think that's just somethingthat we often inherently do
we're our own worst critics.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yes, yes, I think so.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
In your experience?
What is one common mistakeyou've seen people make during
the divorce process that couldhave been prevented, and how can
our listeners avoid that?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Let's see one common mistake.
So what I see as a big error isapproaching the process from a
position like taking a standthat you won't back down from
right, like I have to get ahundred percent custody of the
(10:55):
kids.
Yeah, now you know, people willcome to me and I'll help them
recognize that most courts don'tdo that anymore.
Help them recognize that mostcourts don't do that anymore and
maybe that's not actually whatthey want.
And then we dig deeper.
But what really happens is theystart out.
They're saying I must have thisand I must have that, and
(11:16):
before I say okay, let's go, Isay tell me more about that,
what's so important about havingthis and what are the values
underlying it and how can I helpyou live up to those values, as
opposed to demanding thatposition.
(11:38):
So that's where I see the moststruggle, and I also have many
clients who feel like they'vebeen married to someone who
demonstrates narcissisticpersonality traits and they have
felt victimized throughouttheir marriage or maybe more
recently or whenever it is.
(11:58):
But they feel like they are thevictim and they have no agency.
And that's a big mistake,because we all have agency.
We just have to give ourselvespermission to use it and for
many of my clients I have one inparticular I'm thinking about.
She was so traumatized by thenarcissism in her relationship
(12:23):
that she felt like she wasn'tallowed to make any decisions
for herself.
And since she wasn't allowedthen, she just can't do it now.
And what I help people do islearn to take those small steps
to practice decision-making andneed identification and need
(12:44):
identification.
They can become spokespeoplefor themselves.
They can find their voice allover again.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, and that's so important for people to that
don't feel like they've had, youknow, agency to make those
decisions, to realize they dohave the strength to and now
using that strength and agency,going forward, but not to the
extent of digging in their heelsand, you know, being in one
(13:15):
position that they're notwilling to budge.
I think there's that, you know,that fine line there.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, I mean there is knowing what you want and going
after it.
And then there's my way or thehighway.
So that's where you know wecan't stand on a position which
is like you know, can't stand ona position which is, like you
know, a high diving board,without recognizing that you
know there may not be any waterin there.
(13:41):
Let's figure out, you know, inthat pool that you might be
diving into, let's figure outhow do we fill up that cup with
what's most important, what areyour interests?
And now your interests canreach up to your position.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Now we have a place to start talking.
Yeah, and so much of what youare describing now is kind of in
that realm of mediation that wedo so much work in, and I know
that that's something that youhelp your clients with in
offering pre-mediation coachingso that they can go, you know,
go into the mediation sessionswith clarity and confidence.
(14:22):
Can you explain to ourlisteners a little bit about
what your services related topre-mediation coaching involves?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Sure, what I help clients do is recognize that
they do have power, but theyneed to use their power
judiciously, and that we reallygo through everything that they
are looking to achieve and howthey can achieve.
(14:53):
We look at what is a negotiableand what's a non-negotiable,
and if there are non-negotiables, what are you willing to give
up in order to get something?
So we really look at this.
It's not horse trading,although it might sound that way
the way I'm posing it, but itreally is about valuing your
values right what is mostimportant to you and what is
(15:18):
most important to the personyou're negotiating with, and how
can we meet their needs so thatyou can get what you need.
And so that's a big piece of it.
And I help them understand themediation process so that they
don't feel many people thinkthat someone is going to give
them an agreement in mediationand they're like a judge and
(15:43):
that's it.
And I disabuse them of thatnotion and I let them know that
mediation is about agency.
Like you have control of theprocess, you don't have to agree
to anything you don't want andyou have a power the power to
actually reach agreement withyour soon-to-be ex over things
(16:05):
that you thought you may neverhave agreed on before.
Right, but now the ability toagree is going to give you a
platform to launch your nextphase of your life.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Absolutely.
How would you describe or ifyou could explain to the
listeners slightly understandingthat you have an attorney
background but in this role youare coaching.
How is your coaching differentthan if they were also working
with an attorney in preparationfor mediation?
(16:39):
Because that's something thatwe do with our clients.
But I want to make sure thatlisteners are clear that the
coaching side is different thanthe legal preparation for
mediation.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
So 100 percent.
So the difference between whatI do and what a lawyer does is I
strategize with you about allthe different questions you
might have for your lawyer.
So, rather than going into thatsession with your lawyer and
hoping that they know all of theissues you should be dealing
(17:17):
with, I work with the clientbefore that meeting so they can
really identify what is mostimportant to them, what are
their issues, what are theirconcerns?
How can they best communicatethose issues and concerns to
their lawyer or to the mediator?
I work with them oncommunication techniques.
(17:37):
If, for instance, they have aparticular thing with their
soon-to-be ex that particularlytriggers them, how do we deal
with that trigger?
How do we shift ourconversation patterns, which are
ingrained to learn newtechniques, which are ingrained
(18:00):
to learn new techniques?
I work with neuroplasticityideas that you can change your
brain but you need to practice,and so the practice happens in
the coaching space, so thatyou're practicing in the
coaching space what you're goingto deliver in the legal space.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Absolutely.
And then, from you know, kindof our perspective it is always
great when a client is alsoworking with a coach, because
they do come to us kind ofprepared and knowing exactly
what it is that they are lookingfor, and then especially what
those clients that are going tobe negotiating or going to
mediation.
(18:35):
We help them in figuring out,you know, or at least discussing
with them, what the law allowsand that the fact that that is a
reference point and thosethings that are non-negotiables,
you know, like child supportand that sort of thing, as well
as those things that they cannegotiate, you know how the
(18:59):
house is going to be dealt withor how they can address custody
and access issues and thosesorts of things.
So we're looking at it alsofrom the negotiation side, but
really giving them the legalbackground so they know what
their rights and obligations arebefore they're making those
decisions going into themediation space.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Right.
So one one like Idea that wecan bring here is that there is
a legal framework that you workwith your clients on that.
This is the legal frameworkaround which our agreement will
be reached on that.
This is the legal frameworkaround which our agreement will
be reached, and I have adifferent framework.
(19:41):
My framework is these this isyour life and these are the
issues that are most importantto you.
They may not be most importantto the next door neighbor who is
also getting divorced, but butI we need to identify what's
most important to you and whatis most important to your life
and your children's lives.
So let's do that in our space,because my framework is bringing
(20:04):
out all the issues that aremost important and helping my
client develop their curiositymuscle so they can start to ask
questions about why is this soimportant to me?
What am I really concernedabout?
Is there something that I justhaven't thought about before,
but is really the core issuethat I am most concerned about,
(20:29):
so that we can go under layersthat the client may not have the
time to go through with theirattorney, and their attorney is
asking them for answers toquestions, whereas I'm asking
questions to their answer yep,absolutely all right.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I want to shift gears a little bit.
Um.
So I know that you arecertified in the here's a little
bit.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
So I know that you are certified in the.
Is it B-H-2-O?
Am I saying it correctly?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Actually B-E-H-2-O, I'm looking at it as B the word,
so B-E-H-2-O.
So can you tell us a little bitmore about what that is and how
it works?
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Sure.
So B-E-H-H2O is a jointco-parenting movement, really,
where we have designed.
Our founder, trina Knudsen, hasdesigned this program as a
workshop for co-parents who arereally struggling with
communication and argumentationand fighting constantly over how
(21:37):
they are responding to theco-parenting challenges.
Now we're all going to haveconflict, but how we deal with
the conflict and respond to theconflict is going to make a
whole different reality for ourkids.
So the goal and the objectiveand the purpose of BEH2O is
safeguarding childhoods from thechallenges of divorce.
(22:00):
You know I've heard people say,well, you don't want to involve
the kids in X, y or Z, and thebottom line is the kids are
involved and they'reexperiencing it, even if you
think you're hiding the conflict.
There is tension and they knowyou're hiding the conflict.
There is tension and they know.
(22:21):
And the kids get put in themiddle so often that this
program helps the parentsrecognize that their marital
relationship is over.
What was dysfunctional there,we agree, is dysfunctional.
We put it on a shelf.
Now we're in a new business andthis business is raising our
kids.
So if we were in businesstogether, we should follow
(22:43):
business strategies for success.
So that means focusing on ourpurpose, focusing on our
structure?
What is our entrepreneurialoperating system?
So that would be like when dowe communicate?
(23:06):
How do we communicate?
What method do we use tocommunicate?
How do we communicate so westop triggering each other?
You feel and what you need, soyou talk in emotion, words that
are not accusatory, which sooften accusation is what derails
(23:29):
the process.
So our clients learn to look ateach other not as objects or
obstacles, but as other humanbeings that have feelings and
needs.
And there were things that mayhave motivated our co-parent
that we just couldn't seebecause we were feeling so
(23:51):
threatened.
And so that's what BEH2O workstoward, and it helps the couple
or the co-parents learn thatthey actually have the power to
change within themselves.
And it takes a mindset shift,which is not easy, but it is
(24:11):
effectuated by practicing thetechniques and committing to
making different choices sotheir children will feel a real
difference.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
That sounds very interesting, especially for
those who are having thosedifficulties in communicating
post-divorce.
You know, sometimes we seepeople who are getting along
during the separation and thedivorce.
Things seem to be amicable.
But often there are things thatcome up post-divorce that you
(24:47):
know bumps in the road that makethat communication challenging,
and so this could be anopportunity to address those
issues at that time.
Yeah, do you ever havescenarios where you know for our
listeners who may have thatuncooperative co-parent right,
what is a practical piece ofadvice you'd give them in
(25:10):
creating a better environmentfor their kids?
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So I just want to share that most of the parents
that have gone through thisprogram have been ordered by the
court to do the workshop.
These are people who've beenfiling motions, who maybe they
have a guardian ad litem, maybethey have a parenting
coordinator, but it's notworking and the cost of conflict
(25:35):
is high in both emotions and indollars.
So this program gives thecouple the agency to actually
make the changes themselves,even if they think it's
impossible.
I have no magic fairy dust towave on their co-parent to say
(25:56):
I'm going to change you.
The only thing I can guaranteeis that if you do the work, you
will feel changed.
And if you feel changed and youapproach the relationship
differently, the relationshipwill be different.
And that's what we've seen timeand time again.
And our testimonials are fromcouples who, in one case, the
(26:21):
father hadn't seen the teenagedaughter for a year and a half.
They had been so strugglingthat or their struggle was so
acute that they couldn't even betogether.
And after the program they hada joint graduation party for the
daughter from high school andthey were able to be in the same
(26:42):
place at the same time, whichbefore the workshop they could
never have even imagined.
So it's really possible.
And so you also asked for, like,what's a tip?
So a tip is learning how tocommunicate without accusing and
(27:03):
to recognize where you stand inthe conflict.
So how is your behaviorsabotaging your own purpose,
your own why, your own why?
And when we start recognizingthat it's not just them and I
(27:23):
can't control them, I can onlycontrol myself.
So recognizing that you cancontrol yourself will enable you
to shift your perspective.
And it's not about becoming adoormat.
That's not what we're askingour clients to do Like.
This is not about rolling overMaybe.
(27:43):
This is about setting realboundaries, and the boundaries
are about what you will acceptand boundaries are not about.
Boundaries don't represent thatyou don't care about the other
person.
Boundaries demonstrate that youdo care and that it's important
(28:04):
for them to acknowledge thatyou have boundaries.
But it's important for you toacknowledge it because that's
how you respect yourself andthat will earn the respect of
the people you're dealing withrespect of the people you're
dealing with.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
That's so interesting and I'm gonna look more into
that program.
That's not something that I'mfamiliar with prior to our
conversation last week, but I'mcurious to know.
You know, those people who arecourt ordered to participate
typically are not doing sovoluntarily, and I've done all
of this.
You know high conflictbeforehand, so it'll be
interesting to learn a littlebit more about how many of them
(28:47):
have a change in the behavior.
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
what's so fascinating is that you know, some of these
couples have been divorced forseven, eight years, before they
even do the program, so theyhave really created habits that
are not positive, related toco-parenting mindset.
(29:15):
If, instead of looking only athow something affects them, they
look at how it affects theirchildren and how it affects
their co-parents, it can shifttheir whole perspective on what
is going on.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
So, so it really there has been dramatic change.
So, yes, I welcome you lookingdeeper because it's so powerful.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Thank you for sharing so much valuable advice today.
If the listeners take away justone thing from our conversation
, what would you like that to be?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I would like your listeners to know that they are
allowed to ask for help, thatsometimes the most courageous
thing is to find the resourcewho has what you need, and
acknowledge that you have needs,and having needs doesn't make
(30:15):
you needy.
You know, some of us feel like,oh, I don't want to be a needy
person, I don't want everyone tothink that I need help all the
time.
But when we wear that hat, weare not acknowledging that we
weren't put on this earth tolive it alone.
We're in a world of communityand there are resources out
(30:38):
there in the divorce world whocan help you walk the path and
make it a little less terrifyingand a little more empowering,
because there's a light at theend of the tunnel and you will
be able to launch to your nextchapter, and there is a next
chapter.
So that's all what I mightshare with your audience.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Thank you.
Where can our listeners findyou if they want to learn more
about the services that youprovide and also to hear your
podcast?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Sure, so I divorce coaches are not state limited,
so my clients are across thecountry.
You can find me atLZLcoachingcom.
I offer 30 minute consults forfree for anyone who's curious,
and you could also reach me byemail at Lisa at LZLcoachingcom.
(31:38):
And you had one more questionin there for me your podcast, my
podcast.
Yes, so my podcast is Dishingon Divorce with Lisa Lisser, and
you can find me on YouTube, onSpotify, on Apple Podcasts or
anywhere that you listen to yourstreams.
But it's a great opportunity.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Wonderful Well.
Thank you so much for beinghere and sharing your wisdom
with our listeners.
Divorce is never easy, but withthe right support team the
professional team you can comeout stronger on the other side
and for our listeners.
If you found this episodehelpful, please be sure to
subscribe and share it withanyone who could benefit from
Lisa's insights.
(32:21):
Until next time, rememberyou're not alone.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember, every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
No-transcript.
you know, a light bulb went off and I realized
(00:02):
that divorce coaching could bethe perfect blend of all of my
skillsets, where I could be anadvocate, I could hold people's
hearts, I could help themrecognize that I see them and
they can do more than whatthey're doing now and they don't
have to do it alone.
And that's when I realized thatbeing a divorce coach was what
(00:25):
I needed to do.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Carrie
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, where we share realstories and expert insights to
help you navigate the divorceprocess with less stress and
more clarity.
I'm your host, keri Jacobson,and today I'm thrilled to
welcome Lisa Lisser to the show.
Lisa is a certified divorcecoach and a co-parenting
(01:12):
specialist who helps individualsnavigate the divorce with
confidence.
She's certified in BH2O, whichshe's going to tell us more
about later, and that's aco-parenting resource designed
to offer to ease post-divorceparenting challenges.
Lisa also hosts a podcastcalled Dishing on Divorce with
(01:34):
Lisa Lisser, and she is theco-author of Divorce Decoded a
manifesto for women navigatingdivorce and beyond.
Contributing to the chapteryour Guide on the Side
Navigating Divorce and Beyond.
Contributing to the chapteryour Guide on the Side Stories
from a Divorce Coach.
Lisa.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Carrie, thank you so much for having me Well let's
jump in.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I'd love for you to share with our listeners a
little bit more about yourjourney and what led you to
become a divorce coach.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Sure, you know we all have stories right, we all have
journeys, we all have paths,and none of us expected that
that journey was going to leadus here.
I mean, that's something Ireally want my clients to know,
your audience to know that youknow we're on the path that took
us to where we needed to be atthe time.
We needed to be there.
So, for me, I met my spouse incollege.
(02:28):
We were college sweethearts, wegot married, we had three kids
and we grew up together.
But, as I tend to say, we grewup in different directions and
it wasn't what we expected.
And I got divorced after a 20plus year marriage and it was
really shocking.
And even though I was anattorney who had stopped
(02:50):
practicing a while back, I felttotally like a fish out of water
and I didn't feel like I hadany support during the divorce
process, even though I hadseveral lawyers.
It went up to several differentlawyers to get through.
We started with mediation, itgot ugly, we got litigation.
It was just such a hard processand I didn't think there was
(03:14):
anyone out there who could helpme or was really there designed
to be my guide on the side.
And so that was that experience.
Moving forward since the divorce, I got a master's in Jewish
education.
I learned about spiritualcounseling and the power that
connecting to our souls throughancient texts helps us actually
(03:40):
realize that our issues havebeen around for a long time and
there is wisdom in places.
We didn't expect and I thoughtmaybe that would be a way to
help people going throughdivorce, but I wasn't sure how
to pitch it right.
I didn't know how to like sharewith attorneys that, like I,
can really hold your client'ssouls and I can help them, you
(04:01):
know, dig out from that uglyplace.
But I wasn't sure.
So I pursued my master's inJewish education.
I became an educator, acurriculum designer, and this is
after 20 plus years of being avolunteer and a leader in
nonprofit world, where I was apublic speaker and a program
(04:22):
designer.
I did lots of things.
We are all lots of things.
But in the course of mypursuing my career as a Jewish
educator, I learned that therewas this thing called divorce
coaching, which I had neverheard of and it was like you
know.
A light bulb went off and Irealized that divorce coaching
(04:44):
could be the perfect blend ofall of my skill sets.
Where I could be an advocate.
I could hold people's hearts, Icould help them recognize that
I see them and they can do morethan what they're doing now, and
they don't have to do it alone.
And that's when I realized thatbeing a divorce coach was what
(05:06):
I needed to do.
So I pivoted yet again and Igot certified in divorce
coaching, and here I am.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
That's quite a journey, Absolutely.
You know, kind of twist andturns and one thing leads to the
next and now you have foundyour place in the divorce
coaching world, which I stillthink so many people don't
necessarily know about.
It's becoming more popular and,you know, more known, but not
(05:40):
every attorney knows about itand definitely not every
attorney or mediator recommendsit to their clients.
So I don't think it, you know.
It's just not as publicized asI think it should be.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I think part of the problem is that we just don't
know what we don't know.
You know there's I was.
I did this landmark educationmany years ago when I was trying
to figure out what my directionwas and they shared that
there's.
You know what you know and youalso know a category of things
that you don't know.
(06:13):
Like I know I don't know how tospeak French right, I know, I
don't know that but the biggestcategory is the things that I
don't know, that I don't knowright, and so I didn't know that
I could get help, and I didn'tknow that I could get help from
someone who could coach me, andI didn't even know that I could
(06:35):
ask for that kind of help.
And all of those things aresymptoms of going through
divorce, because we feel likewe're supposed to be experts at
everything.
But we might be experts at ourlives.
We know our lives better thananyone else, but we are not
expert at divorce.
We have never done this beforeand we are terrified.
(06:56):
So the role of the divorcecoach is to take away some of
that fear, to allow my clientsto know that they are allowed to
get help, and maybe the mostcourageous thing is to actually
recognize you need help and askfor it, so that I give my
clients permission to do that.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Yeah, well, in your chapter of the Divorce Decoded
book that we worked on together,you talk about being that guy
on the side.
Can you share a little bitabout what that means for you
when you're working with yourclients who are going through
the divorce process?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Sure.
What that means to me is that Iam there to walk the path with
my client.
To me is that I am there towalk the path with my client.
So in some ways it's like aSherpa.
Right, the Sherpa has climbedthat mountain before, but the
Sherpa doesn't know everythingabout you and your strengths or
limitations.
So until you build thatrelationship with the Sherpa,
(08:01):
the steps they give you mightnot be the exact right steps.
So my job is to get to know myclients and to ask them the
questions that lead to questionsthey ask themselves.
So, in other words, like, ifthey ask me, so what am I going
to get in child support, I willsay, well, what do you want to
(08:23):
get and what do you think youreally need?
And what does child supporteven mean to you, right?
So like, help them reallydefine terms.
So that's kind of how I am theguide on the side and I help my
clients recognize that they havestrengths that they may not
(08:44):
realize they have.
So if someone is facing achallenging situation, I will
ask them something like so hasthere ever been a time in your
life when you had to stand upfor one of your kids or advocate
for something in school or dosome other kind of work for
(09:05):
someone else.
You know, what did you do then,when you weren't the person who
needed help, but someone elsewas?
And what I discover is thatpeople have all of these inner
strengths that they just don'tthink about when it comes to
helping themselves, becausethey're so focused on serving
(09:25):
other people that they don'tknow that they have the strength
inside to actually do it forthemselves too.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I agree that many people kind of going through the
process and I would sayespecially women, that is a
struggle that they, you know,have, because they do, you know,
so often do everything else foreveryone else and don't
necessarily put themselves first, and so it's making them
(09:55):
realize that they have thatstrength and that it's always
been there.
They just downplay it forthemselves, but if it was their
best friend they would be ableto find all of those great
qualities in that other person.
I think that's just somethingthat we often inherently do
we're our own worst critics.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yes, yes, I think so.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
In your experience?
What is one common mistakeyou've seen people make during
the divorce process that couldhave been prevented, and how can
our listeners avoid that?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Let's see one common mistake.
So what I see as a big error isapproaching the process from a
position like taking a standthat you won't back down from
right, like I have to get ahundred percent custody of the
(10:55):
kids.
Yeah, now you know, people willcome to me and I'll help them
recognize that most courts don'tdo that anymore.
Help them recognize that mostcourts don't do that anymore and
maybe that's not actually whatthey want.
And then we dig deeper.
But what really happens is theystart out.
They're saying I must have thisand I must have that, and
(11:16):
before I say okay, let's go, Isay tell me more about that,
what's so important about havingthis and what are the values
underlying it and how can I helpyou live up to those values, as
opposed to demanding thatposition.
(11:38):
So that's where I see the moststruggle, and I also have many
clients who feel like they'vebeen married to someone who
demonstrates narcissisticpersonality traits and they have
felt victimized throughouttheir marriage or maybe more
recently or whenever it is.
(11:58):
But they feel like they are thevictim and they have no agency.
And that's a big mistake,because we all have agency.
We just have to give ourselvespermission to use it and for
many of my clients I have one inparticular I'm thinking about.
She was so traumatized by thenarcissism in her relationship
(12:23):
that she felt like she wasn'tallowed to make any decisions
for herself.
And since she wasn't allowedthen, she just can't do it now.
And what I help people do islearn to take those small steps
to practice decision-making andneed identification and need
(12:44):
identification.
They can become spokespeoplefor themselves.
They can find their voice allover again.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, and that's so important for people to that
don't feel like they've had, youknow, agency to make those
decisions, to realize they dohave the strength to and now
using that strength and agency,going forward, but not to the
extent of digging in their heelsand, you know, being in one
(13:15):
position that they're notwilling to budge.
I think there's that, you know,that fine line there.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, I mean there is knowing what you want and going
after it.
And then there's my way or thehighway.
So that's where you know wecan't stand on a position which
is like you know, can't stand ona position which is, like you
know, a high diving board,without recognizing that you
know there may not be any waterin there.
(13:41):
Let's figure out, you know, inthat pool that you might be
diving into, let's figure outhow do we fill up that cup with
what's most important, what areyour interests?
And now your interests canreach up to your position.
Speaker 3 (13:59):
Now we have a place to start talking.
Yeah, and so much of what youare describing now is kind of in
that realm of mediation that wedo so much work in, and I know
that that's something that youhelp your clients with in
offering pre-mediation coachingso that they can go, you know,
go into the mediation sessionswith clarity and confidence.
(14:22):
Can you explain to ourlisteners a little bit about
what your services related topre-mediation coaching involves?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Sure, what I help clients do is recognize that
they do have power, but theyneed to use their power
judiciously, and that we reallygo through everything that they
are looking to achieve and howthey can achieve.
(14:53):
We look at what is a negotiableand what's a non-negotiable,
and if there are non-negotiables, what are you willing to give
up in order to get something?
So we really look at this.
It's not horse trading,although it might sound that way
the way I'm posing it, but itreally is about valuing your
values right what is mostimportant to you and what is
(15:18):
most important to the personyou're negotiating with, and how
can we meet their needs so thatyou can get what you need.
And so that's a big piece of it.
And I help them understand themediation process so that they
don't feel many people thinkthat someone is going to give
them an agreement in mediationand they're like a judge and
(15:43):
that's it.
And I disabuse them of thatnotion and I let them know that
mediation is about agency.
Like you have control of theprocess, you don't have to agree
to anything you don't want andyou have a power the power to
actually reach agreement withyour soon-to-be ex over things
(16:05):
that you thought you may neverhave agreed on before.
Right, but now the ability toagree is going to give you a
platform to launch your nextphase of your life.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Absolutely.
How would you describe or ifyou could explain to the
listeners slightly understandingthat you have an attorney
background but in this role youare coaching.
How is your coaching differentthan if they were also working
with an attorney in preparationfor mediation?
(16:39):
Because that's something thatwe do with our clients.
But I want to make sure thatlisteners are clear that the
coaching side is different thanthe legal preparation for
mediation.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
So 100 percent.
So the difference between whatI do and what a lawyer does is I
strategize with you about allthe different questions you
might have for your lawyer.
So, rather than going into thatsession with your lawyer and
hoping that they know all of theissues you should be dealing
(17:17):
with, I work with the clientbefore that meeting so they can
really identify what is mostimportant to them, what are
their issues, what are theirconcerns?
How can they best communicatethose issues and concerns to
their lawyer or to the mediator?
I work with them oncommunication techniques.
(17:37):
If, for instance, they have aparticular thing with their
soon-to-be ex that particularlytriggers them, how do we deal
with that trigger?
How do we shift ourconversation patterns, which are
ingrained to learn newtechniques, which are ingrained
(18:00):
to learn new techniques?
I work with neuroplasticityideas that you can change your
brain but you need to practice,and so the practice happens in
the coaching space, so thatyou're practicing in the
coaching space what you're goingto deliver in the legal space.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Absolutely.
And then, from you know, kindof our perspective it is always
great when a client is alsoworking with a coach, because
they do come to us kind ofprepared and knowing exactly
what it is that they are lookingfor, and then especially what
those clients that are going tobe negotiating or going to
mediation.
(18:35):
We help them in figuring out,you know, or at least discussing
with them, what the law allowsand that the fact that that is a
reference point and thosethings that are non-negotiables,
you know, like child supportand that sort of thing, as well
as those things that they cannegotiate, you know how the
(18:59):
house is going to be dealt withor how they can address custody
and access issues and thosesorts of things.
So we're looking at it alsofrom the negotiation side, but
really giving them the legalbackground so they know what
their rights and obligations arebefore they're making those
decisions going into themediation space.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Right.
So one one like Idea that wecan bring here is that there is
a legal framework that you workwith your clients on that.
This is the legal frameworkaround which our agreement will
be reached on that.
This is the legal frameworkaround which our agreement will
be reached, and I have adifferent framework.
(19:41):
My framework is these this isyour life and these are the
issues that are most importantto you.
They may not be most importantto the next door neighbor who is
also getting divorced, but butI we need to identify what's
most important to you and whatis most important to your life
and your children's lives.
So let's do that in our space,because my framework is bringing
(20:04):
out all the issues that aremost important and helping my
client develop their curiositymuscle so they can start to ask
questions about why is this soimportant to me?
What am I really concernedabout?
Is there something that I justhaven't thought about before,
but is really the core issuethat I am most concerned about,
(20:29):
so that we can go under layersthat the client may not have the
time to go through with theirattorney, and their attorney is
asking them for answers toquestions, whereas I'm asking
questions to their answer yep,absolutely all right.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I want to shift gears a little bit.
Um.
So I know that you arecertified in the here's a little
bit.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
So I know that you are certified in the.
Is it B-H-2-O?
Am I saying it correctly?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Actually B-E-H-2-O, I'm looking at it as B the word,
so B-E-H-2-O.
So can you tell us a little bitmore about what that is and how
it works?
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Sure.
So B-E-H-H2O is a jointco-parenting movement, really,
where we have designed.
Our founder, trina Knudsen, hasdesigned this program as a
workshop for co-parents who arereally struggling with
communication and argumentationand fighting constantly over how
(21:37):
they are responding to theco-parenting challenges.
Now we're all going to haveconflict, but how we deal with
the conflict and respond to theconflict is going to make a
whole different reality for ourkids.
So the goal and the objectiveand the purpose of BEH2O is
safeguarding childhoods from thechallenges of divorce.
(22:00):
You know I've heard people say,well, you don't want to involve
the kids in X, y or Z, and thebottom line is the kids are
involved and they'reexperiencing it, even if you
think you're hiding the conflict.
There is tension and they knowyou're hiding the conflict.
There is tension and they know.
(22:21):
And the kids get put in themiddle so often that this
program helps the parentsrecognize that their marital
relationship is over.
What was dysfunctional there,we agree, is dysfunctional.
We put it on a shelf.
Now we're in a new business andthis business is raising our
kids.
So if we were in businesstogether, we should follow
(22:43):
business strategies for success.
So that means focusing on ourpurpose, focusing on our
structure?
What is our entrepreneurialoperating system?
So that would be like when dowe communicate?
(23:06):
How do we communicate?
What method do we use tocommunicate?
How do we communicate so westop triggering each other?
You feel and what you need, soyou talk in emotion, words that
are not accusatory, which sooften accusation is what derails
(23:29):
the process.
So our clients learn to look ateach other not as objects or
obstacles, but as other humanbeings that have feelings and
needs.
And there were things that mayhave motivated our co-parent
that we just couldn't seebecause we were feeling so
(23:51):
threatened.
And so that's what BEH2O workstoward, and it helps the couple
or the co-parents learn thatthey actually have the power to
change within themselves.
And it takes a mindset shift,which is not easy, but it is
(24:11):
effectuated by practicing thetechniques and committing to
making different choices sotheir children will feel a real
difference.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
That sounds very interesting, especially for
those who are having thosedifficulties in communicating
post-divorce.
You know, sometimes we seepeople who are getting along
during the separation and thedivorce.
Things seem to be amicable.
But often there are things thatcome up post-divorce that you
(24:47):
know bumps in the road that makethat communication challenging,
and so this could be anopportunity to address those
issues at that time.
Yeah, do you ever havescenarios where you know for our
listeners who may have thatuncooperative co-parent right,
what is a practical piece ofadvice you'd give them in
(25:10):
creating a better environmentfor their kids?
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So I just want to share that most of the parents
that have gone through thisprogram have been ordered by the
court to do the workshop.
These are people who've beenfiling motions, who maybe they
have a guardian ad litem, maybethey have a parenting
coordinator, but it's notworking and the cost of conflict
(25:35):
is high in both emotions and indollars.
So this program gives thecouple the agency to actually
make the changes themselves,even if they think it's
impossible.
I have no magic fairy dust towave on their co-parent to say
(25:56):
I'm going to change you.
The only thing I can guaranteeis that if you do the work, you
will feel changed.
And if you feel changed and youapproach the relationship
differently, the relationshipwill be different.
And that's what we've seen timeand time again.
And our testimonials are fromcouples who, in one case, the
(26:21):
father hadn't seen the teenagedaughter for a year and a half.
They had been so strugglingthat or their struggle was so
acute that they couldn't even betogether.
And after the program they hada joint graduation party for the
daughter from high school andthey were able to be in the same
(26:42):
place at the same time, whichbefore the workshop they could
never have even imagined.
So it's really possible.
And so you also asked for, like,what's a tip?
So a tip is learning how tocommunicate without accusing and
(27:03):
to recognize where you stand inthe conflict.
So how is your behaviorsabotaging your own purpose,
your own why, your own why?
And when we start recognizingthat it's not just them and I
(27:23):
can't control them, I can onlycontrol myself.
So recognizing that you cancontrol yourself will enable you
to shift your perspective.
And it's not about becoming adoormat.
That's not what we're askingour clients to do Like.
This is not about rolling overMaybe.
(27:43):
This is about setting realboundaries, and the boundaries
are about what you will acceptand boundaries are not about.
Boundaries don't represent thatyou don't care about the other
person.
Boundaries demonstrate that youdo care and that it's important
(28:04):
for them to acknowledge thatyou have boundaries.
But it's important for you toacknowledge it because that's
how you respect yourself andthat will earn the respect of
the people you're dealing withrespect of the people you're
dealing with.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
That's so interesting and I'm gonna look more into
that program.
That's not something that I'mfamiliar with prior to our
conversation last week, but I'mcurious to know.
You know, those people who arecourt ordered to participate
typically are not doing sovoluntarily, and I've done all
of this.
You know high conflictbeforehand, so it'll be
interesting to learn a littlebit more about how many of them
(28:47):
have a change in the behavior.
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
what's so fascinating is that you know, some of these
couples have been divorced forseven, eight years, before they
even do the program, so theyhave really created habits that
are not positive, related toco-parenting mindset.
(29:15):
If, instead of looking only athow something affects them, they
look at how it affects theirchildren and how it affects
their co-parents, it can shifttheir whole perspective on what
is going on.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
So, so it really there has been dramatic change.
So, yes, I welcome you lookingdeeper because it's so powerful.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Thank you for sharing so much valuable advice today.
If the listeners take away justone thing from our conversation
, what would you like that to be?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I would like your listeners to know that they are
allowed to ask for help, thatsometimes the most courageous
thing is to find the resourcewho has what you need, and
acknowledge that you have needs,and having needs doesn't make
(30:15):
you needy.
You know, some of us feel like,oh, I don't want to be a needy
person, I don't want everyone tothink that I need help all the
time.
But when we wear that hat, weare not acknowledging that we
weren't put on this earth tolive it alone.
We're in a world of communityand there are resources out
(30:38):
there in the divorce world whocan help you walk the path and
make it a little less terrifyingand a little more empowering,
because there's a light at theend of the tunnel and you will
be able to launch to your nextchapter, and there is a next
chapter.
So that's all what I mightshare with your audience.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Thank you.
Where can our listeners findyou if they want to learn more
about the services that youprovide and also to hear your
podcast?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Sure, so I divorce coaches are not state limited,
so my clients are across thecountry.
You can find me atLZLcoachingcom.
I offer 30 minute consults forfree for anyone who's curious,
and you could also reach me byemail at Lisa at LZLcoachingcom.
(31:38):
And you had one more questionin there for me your podcast, my
podcast.
Yes, so my podcast is Dishingon Divorce with Lisa Lisser, and
you can find me on YouTube, onSpotify, on Apple Podcasts or
anywhere that you listen to yourstreams.
But it's a great opportunity.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Wonderful Well.
Thank you so much for beinghere and sharing your wisdom
with our listeners.
Divorce is never easy, but withthe right support team the
professional team you can comeout stronger on the other side
and for our listeners.
If you found this episodehelpful, please be sure to
subscribe and share it withanyone who could benefit from
Lisa's insights.
(32:21):
Until next time, rememberyou're not alone.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember, every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
No-transcript.
Popular Podcasts
True Crime Tonight
If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.