“Divorced” Doesn't Need To Be Your Identity

Four months after the divorce, Mark discusses rebuilding his identity, working through his emotions regarding his kids and his ex, and practical self care.

Topics include:

• The surprising benefit of traveling and of not having "being divorced" as one's primary identity
• How to share news of the divorce with friends and family, and the support it brings
• The joy of feeling seen and appreciated by our kids
--- The video Mark is referring to: What if My Ex Says Bad Things About Me to My Kids?
• How the kids are doing, 4 months after the physical separation
• Parenting schedules - how long should kids go without seeing the other parent?
• Responding to kids when they miss the other parent
• Managing the discomfort of real-time conversations with the ex, and considering the benefits of a-synchronous communication like texting or email
• Kids may spend less time thinking about the divorce than the parents
• Working through guilt and shame over the failed relationship
• Learning to enjoy time without the kids
• The fear and guilt of not being with kids for important events that happen when they're with the other parent
• Thinking about starting to date

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
When you go through it, you just don't really see
the light at the end of thetunnel.
For me, I can honestly lookback and say I'm happy that this
happened.
I am a happier person than Iwas.
I'm discovering more aboutmyself and who I am and who the
kids are, and I wouldn't havebelieved you if you had told me
that was what my life was goingto be like a year ago.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to the Divorcing Dads podcast.
My name is Dr Eran Magen.
Join me for honestconversations with divorcing
dads about their journey ofhealing.
Our goal is to support andempower divorcing dads to stay
connected with their childrenwhile living a life they love.
To protect the privacy of thedads I speak with, we change
their voice, as well as names,locations and other potentially

(00:41):
identifying information.
If you are feeling hopeless orunsafe, please call 988, which
offers free and confidentialcounseling 24-7.
You are not alone.
Your kid's life will be betterwith you in it.
Don't give up.
That number again is 988.
And now let's turn to today'sepisode.

(01:05):
Mark and I started talking verysoon after his ex left their
home, and we spoke every coupleof weeks, but only started
recording our conversationsabout four months into the
process.
In this episode you'll hear thefirst recorded conversation.
Mark had just come back from atrip that he gave himself as
kind of a feel-better gift, andhe talks about how that worked
for him.
We then move on to cover a widerange of topics, including how

(01:32):
Mark continues to share the newsabout his divorce and getting
support from people in his life,what time with the kids is like
for Mark and what time awayfrom the kids is like for Mark,
and the kind of guilt andsadness that he feels when he's
away from them, and how he'sdealing with it, and then some
thoughts about starting to datepossibly.
I hope you will enjoy andbenefit from hearing this
conversation.
So here's Mark talking abouthis trip.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
I went with my dad and well, I guess I originally
booked this vacation becauseI've been wanting to go to
Denmark for a long time.
You know, my ex never reallywanted to go, so this is kind of
after we divorced, you know, Ifound a free week for me where
she had the kids and I had somefree time to book a trip for her

(02:19):
.
And the timing thing justworked out and originally I was
really hesitant to do it, Ithink, because I was kind of in
a dark place and one of thethings that you had told me was
imagine that someone you lovedwas going through this, or your
kids, and what would you wantthem to give themselves

(02:40):
permission to do?
And this was that thingthemselves permission to do, and
this was that thing.
So I gave myself permission tobook this trip and I had a great
time.
Denmark for me and just the kindof person that I am, it's the
kind of trip that I enjoy, likeit's a good mix of sightseeing
and outdoorsy-ness, you know.

(03:00):
There's like this good mix ofhikes and stuff and things you
can do.
It's like kind of a foreignland where you can't pronounce
anything.
It's also a mix of kind ofrelaxing things you can do as
well.
I mean they have like hotsprings and stuff, good food and
things like that.
There was like this fish stewthat I can't pronounce.

(03:21):
We had like the fermented shark, which was kind of a novelty,
you know, I couldn't pronouncethat either.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, it sounds amazing.
I think it's such a way to make.
Lemonade is kind of a, I think,well, very overused expression.
But you know it's, I guess,like a silver lining, right,
like there's some positive inthis, when you realize, oh,
there's this thing I've beenwanting to do all this time and
now I can.
Yeah.
I don't need anyone to agree orto have permission or to
participate, I can just go.

(03:50):
And I think it's amazing, and Ithink that's an important way
to support yourself, right, andthis really difficult experience
you're going through on yourown.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, yeah, it was nice to just get away from that
too.
Yeah, I think, day in and dayout, I mean being in this, like
whatever this is called goingthrough the divorce, a process
of divorce thing, and and thatbecoming part of my identity,
you know, yeah, but going onthis vacation kind of I don't

(04:27):
know freed me from that a littlebit, like being someone who's
not going through a divorce butbeing someone who's just on
vacation.
Yeah, it's funny because rightbefore I left for the trip,
another friend of mine fromcollege found out about the
divorce.
I guess my ex had posted apicture of her and her boyfriend

(04:47):
, or her new boyfriend, or afair partner, or whatever you
want to call it, on social mediaand they were kind of like what
the heck is this person?
And so, yeah, they emailed ortexted or whatever and they were
just like, hey, I found outabout this, do you want to meet
up or talk?

(05:08):
So I had drafted up this emailthat was like here's what's
going on, so I don't have totalk about it.
And I met up with this friendand I talked with him for like
three hours anyway.
Met up with this friend and Italked with him for like three
hours anyway, and it turns outthat he is actually coworkers

(05:30):
with that guy.
Oh, just like total, randomcoincidence, yeah, like they
happen to be like in the samedepartment, yeah, in their
company.
He didn't know him that well,but so that was kind of.
That was like a kind of a weirdyeah yeah, but yeah anyway.

(05:50):
So this friend that I met upwith was kind of like a friend
from college and it's one ofthose friends that maybe we
haven't talked in a long time,but it's just really easy to
pick up where we left off yeah,clearly the three hours, and I
guess it also answers the.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
The other question I had in my head and then realized
you answered it by saying youtalked for three hours, which is
was it working together Anykind of a conflict of interest
or some problem?
But it seems like no.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Not really.
I mean, my friend was reallysympathetic and really kind, you
know, and said a lot of nicethings.
And really kind, you know, andsaid a lot of nice things.
We left hoping to meet up moreoften and not due to, you know,
like some tragedy or whatever.
You know, I thought that thatconversation would be a lot more
painful than it was, and so Iwas kind of surprised and happy

(06:39):
to have the support.
It also felt really validatingtoo, because it wasn't like I'm
asking people to take sides orstuff or anything like that.
But the words that were saidwere very affirming, you know,
agreeing that I did do my bestand I don't know, uh yeah, just

(06:59):
affirming that I did do my bestand that I didn't do anything
wrong.
And, as you know, that'simportant to me.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, kind of going back to that question that you
were asking yourself a couple ofweeks ago, right, no, maybe a
month ago about what could youhave done differently to prevent
the divorce.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
essentially, yeah, Throughout all this I'm, you
know, I'm able to rest in theknowledge that I did my best and
that I'm continuing to do mybest, you know, and taking care
of the boys and just being aboveboard on my relationship with
my ex -wife.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
It's really nice that a friend found you, you know,
reached out to you to offersupport.
Like so often, it's about thediscomfort of reaching out to
friends and telling them what'sgoing on, like you were saying
right, writing that email andjust not having to reinvent it
every time, but then to have afriend come to you and offer
such nice support and validation, that's really wonderful.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, just before I left it was like, yeah, one more
thing to deal with before Ileave.
But uh, but it was okay.
Yeah, it turned out to be agood thing in the end.
How?

Speaker 2 (08:08):
um.
How are your kids doing?

Speaker 1 (08:11):
My kids are doing well, I think.
Uh, the older one is runningfor student government, you know
.
So it's always just nice and,you know, I think we're at this
stage where it's it's just a funage, you know, right, or
they're getting interested intothings and they're just they're
trying to find their owninterests and hobbies and things

(08:31):
like that and just tryingthings out and we're able to be
really supportive of that, whichis nice.
My oldest trying out forstudent government or whatever,
is not something that me or myex would ever have done and it's
not something that we did whenit was his age, you know, or
even older.

(08:52):
You know he's like just puttinghim out there and trying it out
, you know like, okay, cool,yeah it's either totally his own
thing or some recessive geneshowing itself and you know
there's like other things too.
Like he kind of got intocomputer programming for a
little bit and and I'm in tech,but it's not something I pushed
it was just like he was playingwith his legos one day and one

(09:14):
of his legos is like aprogrammable one and so you like
drag and drop pictures orwhatever.
It's very pictorial, so youlike drag and drop the
instructions or whatever youknow like on how to you like
drag and drop the instructionsor whatever you know like on how
to make the legos do things andstuff.
You know there's like thissensor and this motor and things
like that.
It's um, very like stem toy.

(09:35):
You know that's great.
So he was like, uh, I know youdon't use this at work, so what
do you guys use at work?
And so I I showed him just alittle bit about what we do, you
know like of our coderepositories at work.
And so he was like, can I learnabout that?
And I was like, okay, and thenso we got some books about like

(09:57):
the Python coding language fromthe library, you know and now
he's really into that.
I was like I didn't really pushfor this or anything, but now
I'm glad that he's into it andinterested in something that I
do, which so that was nice.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, and there's actually before.
I assume, like what's niceabout this that he's interested
in something that you do?

Speaker 1 (10:23):
I want to say that it's nice that that he sees me,
you know.
So that makes me feel seen,which is nice.
You know, I'm not usuallythinking about that, I'm just I
think about how wonderful it is.
Um, it's the sense of wonder atthe mind of a child, and I
really enjoy that you know, thecreation of life is miraculous

(10:48):
there's no other word for it,right?

Speaker 2 (10:49):
I mean you take a couple of, you know, pieces of
like vaguely life stuff and thenyou combine them and then
suddenly there's like a wholenew life coming out.
That's astonishing to me, butit's kind of abstract, like I
don't actually see it happening.
You know, I mean I see thebirth, but that's of abstract,

(11:11):
like I don't actually see ithappening.
You know, I mean I see thebirth, but that's that's really
it and it's kind ofawe-inspiring but it's.
I don't see the moment of oflife creation.
But observing cognition grow,that to me is a totally
mind-blowing miracle.
Like human cognition is justunbelievable to see the baby
mind and then the toddler mindand then the child mind, just
exponentially soak ininformation, understanding.
I have no other word for itthan miraculous.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
So student government and programming.
And I wonder, did he have anykind of inclination toward that
six months ago?

Speaker 1 (11:44):
No, I don't think so.
I think the student governmentthing is definitely a I don't
even know where it.
I think it's just like at thisage they don't even have some
huge concern about what otherpeople think of them.
Right, great benefit.
So they're just like, yeah,let's's try it, let's see what

(12:05):
happens.
Right, my younger one, um, atthe end of the last school year
there was like this talent show,yeah, so he just like whistled
a song.
I mean, he's like he's in firstgrade and he whistled the song
and he didn't care, it was justlike whistling.

(12:26):
I mean, other kids were upthere playing like their violin
or piano or jungling and stufflike that, and he was just
whistling my talent is notcaring what you all think and
his teacher sent me the video ofit and we were both like, wow,
I wish I had the courage to dosomething like that.
And we were both just kind ofmarveling at the self-confidence

(12:48):
that he was asserting.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
You know, I don't know at all that this is true,
but I know that I take suchamazing, such great delight at
my kid being interested in beingmore like me.
It feels very reassuring to mein terms of our relationship.
It feels very reassuring to mein terms of our relationship, so
not not just the part that yousaid about being seen, but also
the part where he actively like,he clearly thinks it's good to

(13:11):
be me or that there's value inbeing like me, and so he tries
to learn some of the things ordo some of the things.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
That, to me, is just very reaffirming of of the
relationship as well, and Ithink that that just kind of
goes along with that video youposted.
You know it's like the kids seeyou.
You know they don't have to goby what they hear about you,
they see it for themselves.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, they have direct experience.
Yeah, and what they see isobviously good if they want to
be, if he wants to learn how todo what you do and for you to
teach him that.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
The younger one still does kind of sulk a little bit.
I mean, he's still pretty sadabout the divorce thing.
The last couple of weeks, youknow, he said something like I
wish we weren't divorced or I'msometimes sad and I really don't
know why, but it's usuallyaround like bedtime, you know,

(14:03):
cause he's kind of tired.
But even then it's kind of hardto articulate those things.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
This is flipped from what was before right Cause
before you said your older onewas more upset.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Um, yeah, uh, the older one would get.
I mean, at the beginning he wasreally upset about how quickly
things were moving, especiallywith my ex-wife and the new guy
or the new guy in his life, youknow and he had said things to
the effect of like this wholething is mommy's fault or you
know.
Stuff like that, I don't know.
He hasn't really had an episodelike that for a while now.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
But then you see the younger one being more upset.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, the younger one , yeah, you know, I just think a
week apart from the otherparent is just too long.
Yeah, he'll say things like Imiss mommy.
And I'll say, you know, you'llsee her on video chat tonight or
tomorrow's Wednesday and you'llsee her for dinner.
And then he kind of feelsbetter and goes off and does his

(15:10):
thing.
You know, yeah, or yesterday hewas just tired, you know, like
he fell asleep right when hishead fit the pillow.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Another amazing skill of kids.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, yeah, another amazing skill of kids.
Yeah, yeah.
And like we talked about before, I'm trying to just acknowledge
those feelings and not feedinto it like oh, I miss mommy
too and be really cryptic,because that doesn't help and so
what does it look like?
these days.
I just kind of acknowledge thefeelings like it's okay to be
sad, it's normal to be sad aboutthese kind of things, yeah, but

(15:47):
things are better now.
I don't know if you noticed,pete, but mommy and daddy are
both kind of doing better apart.
We're doing a lot better apartthan we ever did together, and I
know you can't tell, but we arehappier.
So I said that.
And then this most recent timeit was, you know, just those

(16:09):
other things like you're goingto see her tomorrow, so maybe
it'll be better then and he waslike, okay, okay, okay, you know
.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
So right now you say a week apart is too much, but I
remember that there's a mid weekmeet and that it's no longer at
your homes.
Yeah, but like a pickup apickup and a drop off midweek.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah, I just dropped them off at.
You know, this week they'rewith me, so I just dropped them
off at their mom's place onWednesday and she drops them
back off when they're done, so,like at seven 30.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
But still it feels like a week, basically, of not
seeing her and that being toomuch for them.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know if it's that serious, but I
you know he'll occasionallyjust say I miss her, you know?
Yeah, I don't actually know ifhe actually says I miss daddy
when he's at mama's place.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
That's the big question, right?
That would always be nice toknow you know.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
At the same time, you know I am okay if he doesn't
say that.
I think it kind of indicatesthat I'm a constant in his life,
you know yeah like I don't needto miss daddy because he's just
going to be here when I getback.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, I think it's a really good point.
And do we?
Do we engender in our kids asense of something is missing or
a sense of something iscomplete and that it's OK, like
as long as they're happy comingto us?
Do we need them to miss us whenwe're not there?

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Right, right, that's a bit, you know.
I mean, I feel like if we needthat, that's a bit unfair.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, it's needing something from the kids, right,
if we need them to miss us.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, yeah, speaking of the midweek thing, as my wife
I mean not my wife, my ex-wifeI'm so used to saying that as
she dropped off the kids onWednesday at my place, we did
have to stop and like do somesigning of papers because we had
to split up the cars so we hadto retitle them and things like
that.
And then she also said oh, bythe way, you know a new

(18:08):
boyfriend and I have beenmeeting with a therapist.
She was like I was going totell you this last week, but you
were in Denmark.
And I was like thank God youdidn't talk to me while I was in
Denmark.
I was going to tell you thislast week, but the therapist had
mentioned that we shouldn'thave to keep asking our kids for
permission to meet up anymore.
It shouldn't be a question thatwe should just go ahead with it

(18:32):
.
I mean, cause they're trying tofigure out when the family's in
like a healthy way or whatever.
And the therapist was likedon't give them the option, just
do it.
And so I was like okay.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
So not asking for permission, for what activity?

Speaker 1 (18:50):
For being together, like getting together.
I think, like before this, shewould kind of give him the
choice, or the illusion ofchoice, whether or not to hang
out with that guy and his kid,you know yeah, yeah, I see
illusion of choices because,like there have been several
times where she took him to meetup with them without even

(19:13):
telling them anyway.
So it was kind of like stage islike an accident you know, but
yeah.
Oh, we accidentally ran intothem at this park and whatever,
or things like that.
So I was like you weren'treally giving them the choice in
the first place, but okay, butI guess she just felt like the
need to tell me that for somereason and you know, I kind of

(19:36):
came back with well, look, youknow that thing.
I just back with well, look,you know that thing.
I just said with you didn'tgive him the choice in the first
place.
You know, you accidentallyquote unquote ran into him at
the park with nothing, you know,like things like that Right,
like had video chats with themin front of them.
So I don't know what you neededa therapist to tell you.
She was like, oh yeah, thosewere mistakes.

(19:58):
Now we're just going to beovertly intentional about it.
I was like whatever.
And then I was like why are youtelling me this?
I'm like I'm never going toapprove of this person in our
entire lives.
I mean, I told her that Like Itold her expressly like he
cheated on his own spouse, you,and led you to cheat on your
spouse.
So I'm never going to be okaywith this person, I'm never

(20:21):
going to consider him a goodperson in our kids lives.
So she was kind of like alittle taken back from that and
like I was like oh well, Iwasn't asking for your
permission or your approval.
I was like okay, well yeah, it'skind of a shame I'm not asking
for permission yeah, after thatI just started rambling a little
bit and I was just like I'mstill not.

(20:43):
I mean I don't approve this guy, but I just won't say that
around the kids.
You know, I won't tell the kidswhat you did or speak ill of
you or that guy.
I guess my only concern likeand then I reiterated what we
talked about, which was likewhere I said my only concern
with him is like how they feelabout him, like that guy.
You know, as far as that guy'sconcerned and that's pretty much

(21:07):
all I said I mean I was kind offumbling at that point because
I was just trying to stay aboardand, you know, processing this
and like well, she was likelooking at me and stuff so what
was the context for thisconversation?

Speaker 2 (21:18):
This was an in-person conversation.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, yeah, we were just like downstairs in the
garage.
She had come to drop off thekids.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
Oh, I see.
So she came to drop off thekids, brought the papers and
then you were signing things andthen she told you about this,
yeah, Like, by the way, we'vebeen seeing a therapist or
something.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, I, by the way, we've been seeing a therapist or
something.
Yeah, I don't really know whyshe felt the need to talk about
that, but yeah, you know.
But I felt pretty goodultimately, even though I was
fumbling around, at the end Ifelt pretty good, like I said
what I needed to say.
I hope that, number one, sheunderstood my position on it.
Number two, that she'll neverbring that up with me again.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I wonder too why she brought itup with you, and do you have no
interest in knowing what herpolicy is regarding the kid?

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
About different things.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
I don't, because at this point I've gotten pretty
used to her just doing whatevershe wants, you know.
So I don't know why she feltthe need to tell me that.
Maybe she felt the need to tellme that, maybe that now she's a
therapist or whatever.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Oh, interesting, yeah , so you don't complain about it
.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, and I've never complained about it.
I've only ever written to herabout Asher's feelings about it.
Yeah.
Except that one time when shetook them to the park and then
ran into him and that was aviolation of the parenting
agreement, and just that onetime.
Then she told me the next timeand I was like, okay, well,

(22:47):
agreement satisfied, okay.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah, interesting.
The hypothesis you have here isthat she's telling you to let
you know that this is done withthe blessing of a therapist and
therefore it's going to happen,so you shouldn't object.
But you had no intention ofobjecting anyway yeah, either
that.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Or like there's some some feelings of guilt over
whatever she was had done in thepast or whatever.
Like hey, I'm not a bad personbecause somebody else said this
was okay to do.
Somebody else who I'm payingmoney to told me it's a good
idea.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Right that I was okay .
A disinterested third partythat I happen to be employing
yeah, yeah, I get the sense ofyour general emotional reaction,
at least right now isessentially a shrug.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Yeah, it's kind of a shrug because it's kind of like
you're an adult and I can'tprevent her from doing that
stuff, I don't.
I mean, I kind of made my peacewith that and I don't know why
she had to bring it up again.
But I'm also glad that she did,because it was it gave me an
opportunity to tell her this isnever going to happen with me.
You know, this acceptance orapproval of that particular's

(23:53):
presence impeded Nasher's lives.
That's never going to happen.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
And that felt important to tell her yeah, I
think so what did it do for you?

Speaker 1 (24:05):
I think for me it was just I mean, it was 75 for my
sake and 25 for the sake of ourkids, you know.
But obviously the 75 was verymuch like my own ego and pride
and stuff and just my own needto be seen and have my thoughts
be known.
And the 25% was hey, I want mykid's mother to know that I

(24:29):
think there's a bad influence intheir lives, like kind of
register your protest.
Yeah, like I don't think whatyou're doing is a healthy thing
for them.
And I talked to my sister aboutthis too and I was like, well,
you know like how, after youhave these intense conversations
and you kind of go back andyou're like, oh, I wish I would
have said this.
It was like something to theeffect of like you're just

(24:54):
saying this to make you feelbetter.
You know, do whatever you needto make yourself feel better.
Yeah, that's what.
Do whatever you need to makeyourself feel better.
Yeah, that's what I was goingto say, that's what I wish I had
said.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
In real time comment on the process of her telling
you this and you telling herthat.
It's clear to you that she'sjust trying to make herself feel
better.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
Just like to do whatever you need to make
yourself feel better.
But this is what I think youknow and it's I'm not going to
change.
And my sister was like you know, it's good you didn't say that.
I mean, I wish you would havesaid that, but it's probably
good that you didn't say that,you know.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah, it would have been right.
You get that scene of you getto walk away from an explosion
in slow motion, but still, maybeit's not an explosion that you
need.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, I think that's a good
analogy.
Yeah, walking away from theexplosion yeah, so I didn't need
to say that, and so I'm kind ofglad that I didn't Was the
conversation itself civil,comfortable.
I don't think it was comfortable.
I don't think any of ourconversations have been

(25:55):
comfortable for a while, I meaneven like before the separation.
But I don't think any of ourconversations have been
comfortable for a while, I meaneven like before the separation.
But I think our communicationhad worn down so much so it was
just like we were just kind oftalking in starts and stops, you
know, I think, uh, for a longtime we had lost a lot of that
flow we used to have when you'rein a good relationship with
someone.

(26:15):
I think our conversations noware full of like starts and
stops, because we're likeconstantly second guessing what
the other person is trying tosay.
You know what they mean, evenwhen we're just coordinating
calendars and stuff.
It's so much easier in textthan to do it in person.
Yeah, because in person we'rejust talking in all these.
I don't know what it is.
It's like just starts and stops, you know.

(26:37):
Or we're like maybeinterrupting each other or
whatever, because we're just noteven sure of our mannerisms or
whatever, or like whatever, likewe're not accustomed to the way
the other person like.
I totally feel like that whenspeaking with her now.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah, so total reshuffling of the communication
.
Yeah.
Yeah of the communication.
Yeah, yeah, and as part of that, like suspicion or concern
about her motives and talkingand sort of you know, walking
carefully across the minefield,or or are you second guessing
yourself as you're saying things?

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, I think it's all of that.
I mean, I think it's both ofthose things.
Like part of it is secondguessing myself, making sure
that I'm communicating clearly,or what I'm trying to say, you
know.
Yeah.
So there's like no secondguessing or no room for second
guessing, and I think some ofit's also like, yeah, I just
want to make sure it's perceivedthe right way.
Luckily, we don't have many ofthose in-person interactions

(27:33):
anymore.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
I think I'm quoting a lot of this as feeling like
there's little opportunity torecover in case a mistake
happens or somebody misspeaks ormisunderstands.
Like you know, in arelationship that has trust
built into it, then you know, ifsomebody says something, even
offensive, the other person cansay that was offensive, and then
there's an opportunity torepair.
Or if somebody says somethingwrong and then says no, I didn't
mean that, the other personsays, oh, what did you mean?
As opposed to like, no, yousaid that and that's a signed
contract.
Now, yeah, um, yeah.

(28:07):
So I think I can imagine ifeverything needs to be done
correctly, right, becauseeverything is fragile and any
kind of damage or misstep canlead to really bad results, then
you slow way down incommunication to make sure that
there's no mistake happening.
You're kind of you're playingslow chess.
You're not playing some war,you know with a friend, you're

(28:28):
playing chess with a right, anopponent yeah, it's very much
like that.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
Well, I wouldn't say chess, but um, yeah, it's just
like a lot of stop and starting.
Yeah, it's awkward.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
The communication is awkward, you know yeah, yeah,
and I guess, like you said,there is an alternative which is
written communication, and Iguess that's at least for you.
It's more comfortable, right?
It gives you some separationand time to think and consider
your response and consider whatshe said yeah, I mean it's easy
for me because it's kind of likemy job.
you know, in management, I meanyou're emails all the time you

(29:05):
know, I wonder if it really maybe a factor, right, that kind of
like a different facet of youis engaged, like a different
persona, and you can kind ofmanage the situation.
Yeah, I think so.
A different library is loadedright right In your head.
Yeah, yeah exactly.
That's the entire capacity ofmy coding analogy.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
That's great.
I love life applications ofengineering concepts yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Okay, so your older kid seems to be doing better
right now, Because for a littlewhile he was kind of bubbling
right to a point that you wereconcerned.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, he was really raging a lot about the other guy
or about my ex or his momseeing this other guy, you know.
Yeah.
I think he's kind of acceptedit too, and I use the word
accepted meaning like realize hecan't do anything about it,
she's just going to do whatevershe wants to do.
So he's kind of going alongwith that.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, so he's less actively upset about it, which
is still meaningful, right?
I mean you can realize that youcan't change something and
still be upset about it for along time.
Yeah.
At least he's less upset aboutit, or maybe not, I don't know,
but that's really.
I'm glad to hear that he's notraging regularly.
Now, that's not a healthy placeto be, yeah.
But then some of that intensity, some of that energy moved

(30:27):
underground and is now comingout of your younger kid thing is
mostly uh, he just says hemisses her, yeah, and he doesn't
really go much into thespecifics of what he misses.
Just yeah, yeah, and how.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
How often does that happen that I'll say that when
he's with you uh, this week ithappened twice so far on tuesday
night, which was the nightbefore they were gonna have
dinner on wednesday, and then Ithink he said it last night, but
also last night was like areally tired night, you know.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
The other times were not when he was especially tired
.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
No, he was tired too.
It's usually at night when hesays it yeah.
At the same time, it's kind oflike there's a bias there too,
cause in the evenings is when wewould have family time anyway.
Otherwise they're in school anddoing homework and oh, that's
right so that's mixing up twothings at once right here.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
He's tired, and that's the time that you see him
yeah, yeah it's hard to saywhich is driving which and how
insistent is he about it, orlike how?
I guess two questions.
One is how upset is he when hesays that, and two is how
insistent is he about it?
Or like how?
I guess two questions.
One is how upset is he when hesays that, and two is how
insistent is he about it?

Speaker 1 (31:44):
It's not too bad.
I mean, he'll only like say itonce and then I'll address it
with either like you know, likethe whole thing about you know
you see her or you'll be onFaceTime or video chat and that
thing, and then he's okay afterthat, or with like the whole
thing about like you know,things are better now that we're
apart, and then he just goes onand does his next thing.

(32:06):
You know like he moves on.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Okay, yeah, so he doesn't get really stuck on that
yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Yeah, no, I think I may be presumptuous in saying
this, but I think their identityis not too tied up as being the
children of divorced parents,as we are being divorced people
or well, at least mine is,anyway.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yeah, I think you know this connects to what you
were saying before about howthey don't really care about
what other people think.
I think kids are still, youknow, very blissfully egocentric
.
Yeah, and it's mostly you knowthey're they're the main
character and they're showingtheir head.
Yeah, I guess we all are in ourheads, but point is, there's

(32:49):
still them.
You know some of theirsituation has changed, but
there's a lot more to theirlives than the state of
relationships between theirparents.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
Right, right, which is good.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
So I think I think it's a very good insight that,
yeah, they probably spend lesstime thinking about the fact
that you're divorced than youspend about thinking that you're
divorced.
Yeah, that's a really goodpoint.
So right now, how does it work?
She will drop him off with youon Sunday, right?

Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yep, sunday afternoon .

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Sunday afternoon.
So there's that.
Sunday, monday, tuesday,wednesday.
They see her again.
Yeah.
And then Thursday, friday,saturday and Sunday afternoon
they go to her and then it's themirror image.
Yeah, exactly Monday, tuesday,so it's two days that they don't
see her, and then Wednesday,and then three days, yeah, that

(33:35):
they don't see her.
I mean it seems reasonablebecause they're I'm sorry that I
keep asking, but they're sixand nine, is that right?
Or seven and nine?
Yeah, seven and nine, yeah, onthe face of it seems reasonable.
Did you notice if he says thatmore the first half of the week,
like before wednesday or afterwednesday?

Speaker 1 (33:56):
no, one time was before wednesday and one time
was after, so one time was lastnight.
So like both and I guess yeahyeah, both.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
And do they they also have like FaceTime or something
in between?
Yeah, they do like every nightyeah, most every night yeah and
was that the times that he saidthat he missed her?
Were those before or after theFaceTime?

Speaker 1 (34:19):
It was before.
Yeah, like last night he wasgetting kind of apprehensive
because it was getting kind oflate and she hadn't texted.
She was available yet Becauseshe works a lot on the week that
I have the kids, because that'swhen she makes up most of her
overtime, so sometimes she'sworking late.
So I was like let's get readyfor bed and see if she calls.
And I like, five minutes beforebedtime she was like, oh, let's

(34:41):
do a really quick one, yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, Can I?
Can I volunteer an opinion here?

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, yeah, of course .

Speaker 2 (34:48):
I think that's actually an important point.
I think when something may ormay not happen, it's much more
on our mind than when we knowfor sure it's going to happen,
or we know for sure it's notgoing to happen.
And so I think it may be notjust in terms of whether he
thinks about her or not.
It's fine for him to thinkabout her obviously she's his
mom but there's some tensionthat happens there, right.

(35:08):
His mom, okay, but there's sometension that happens there,
right?
If he wants to talk, which is,again, natural and reasonable,
if he wants to talk but he's notsure if it's going to happen,
this can create more tension,for example, than if he wants to
talk and he knows it's notgoing to happen, right?
I don't know if it's possible,given her work context, but I

(35:30):
wonder if it may be possible tohave some sort of a cutoff time
for her to tell you if they'regoing to talk, so that when they
come back from school they know, or maybe later.
I'm just, I'm brainstorminghere, but basically a way to not
leave him waiting until bedtimewondering if it's going to
happen.
Ok, like all the way to bedbecause bedtime.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Then it would make sense for him to be like I miss
mommy because, like now, it'sbecoming clear they're not going
to talk, right, and I think Icould work that out with her.
Yeah, maybe not so much acutoff time, but establishing it
like, hey, is it going to belikely that we're going to talk
tomorrow, you know, even at theend of the call from the
previous or that night, just tosay, hey, tomorrow night we're

(36:14):
going to be working late, so Iwon't be able to facetime, or I
won't be working late, so we'lldefinitely be able to facetime
and we'll talk tomorrow yeah,I'm trying to avoid the maybes
right the tomorrow working late,so I might not be able to call
then.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
Now you know, in the mind of a seven-year-old this
can be like well you know, maybeshe'll make a super effort and
call.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Let's see if she wants to talk to me oh well,
knowing asher, he used to beokay with that, like he, you
know, like we've had that beforeand he's been okay where he was
.
Like she said like, oh, I mightcall you back later or I might
not be able to talk because I'mat work and because I might not

(36:51):
be available because this is anemergency or something, and he's
like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay.
So, yeah, it doesn't reallyaffect him that much, but yeah,
yeah, I get it At least havingthat expectation there.
Even when I was in Denmark Iwas FaceTiming them whenever I
could, but there was a big timedifference.
So it was like maybe like 2.15in the afternoon in Denmark and

(37:13):
it was like 7.30, 7.15, you know, so we could talk before they
went to school.
But if I knew I was going to beout in some remote area with
terrible cell coverage, then Itold them like hey.
I'm probably not going to beable to FaceTime you guys
tomorrow, and so they were okaywith that.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
So for you, when you sayprobably not, that's like a
pretty high probability than not, like kind of assume that it's
not going to happen.
When you say probably not yeah.
Which is what you're thinkingshe might be able to do as well
with regards to work, Rightright.
Yeah, I think that can create alittle, a little bit of peace.
I mean, I think we're workingon the margins here, right like

(37:52):
this doesn't sound like a bigissue, but I can see it being,
you know, I know that I mean, ifI have somebody that I want to
talk with and may or may not,like it's on my mind right,
exactly it's.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
It's not too big of an issue, but it's something
that we could kind of makebetter.
Yeah, improve that at minimum.
Yeah.
Other thing, that not too much,just kind of taking stock of
things from like that 10 000foot point of view.
You know, I think I am.
I am doing a lot better than Iwas three or four months ago,

(38:25):
which, of course, is alwayswhere you want to be right.
But I feel like I think therefor a while I was like in this
fake it till you make it mode,telling myself certain things
and then trying to believe them.
But now I'm actually like whenI've said before, like I did the
best with what I knew over thecourse of my marriage and stuff,

(38:46):
I was probably like 60 to 70%sure of that being true, but now
I'm like really sure of thatbeing true.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
Can you, you know, for both our sakes go a little
more in depth into that.
What is the thing that you werefaking to be making and that
you now have made?

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yeah, I think, just trying to like survive at the
beginning, you know, with theprocessing and the initial shock
, with the divorce, and I thinkfor the first few months, just
trying to hold on to whatever'sgood, to kind of get used to it,
to get you to the next day,right, I think that's what I
mean by fake it till you make it, because not necessarily like

(39:28):
saying things or believingthings that are untrue, um, but
whatever tiny bits or shreds ofevidence that there are that
indicate to you that you were an, are a good person and you are
and we're doing the right thing,and you get to kind of cling
onto those, right, yeah, maybeyou're not completely sure that
they're true or there wassomething maybe you're blind to,

(39:50):
you know, initially.
So that's kind of like thethinking part, but the making it
.
I think having like, talkedthrough it and having lived it
even just this past week withher in the garage, like talking
with other people, uh, like, uh,talking to my friend before I
left for Denmark those thingsare validating experiences to me

(40:15):
.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
The image that I have in my mind when you say this is
kind of like watching a moviethat has nice bits and scary
bits, or scary bits and reallyscary bits, and having our hands
cover our eyes and occasionallypeeking through.
Yeah.
And at the beginning, maybe whenwe're coming in the first time,
we're watching that movie.

(40:36):
Basically we're coming in soshaken up and so confused and so
shocked and it's important thatwe actually cover our eyes when
the really bad bits are showingand we only look at the stuff
that can give us somethingpositive.
But then later on, since we'rebasically watching the movie
again and again or maybe it's ashow, maybe it's a weekly show,

(40:58):
right, but has similar contentweek to week, yeah, but in
future weeks and as we becomemore settled and and have a
better sense of ourselves andget more validation, maybe, or
or just become more grounded andmore centered, then we can
tolerate just watching the wholeshow and actually feel okay
throughout because we don't,we're more stable, right, the

(41:19):
person watching the show is morestable.
We can tolerate and be okayseeing all of the pieces and not
just some of the pieces.
I guess what I'm saying is thatit sounds to me like it during,
during that initial period whenit was really just acutely
distressing, you had to manageyour attention really carefully,
not think too much about thestuff that was really upsetting
and especially think as much asyou could about the things that

(41:42):
could make you feel good.
Yeah.
Right, and then over time, Imean it sounds like now your
aperture is fully open, right,and then over time, I mean it
sounds like now your aperture isfully open, right, Like you can
see and consider and take inanything and it's not too
destabilizing for you.
I mean it sounds like right nowit's not destabilizing for you
at all.
You're very firmly rooted inyour sense of self and your

(42:04):
values and your life and yourrelationship with your kids and
you're able to tolerate.
The totality of your situationis really different from a few
months ago.
I guess that's passing throughmy filter.
That's.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
That's what I'm taking out from what you're
saying yeah I hope that that'sthe case, like as you say, that
I'm thinking just all the littleincidences over the past
several weeks, I guess, anddestabilizing I guess you said
destabilizing and sometimes theywere destabilizing and like,

(42:38):
like her and that guy and youknow, yeah, and like her and the
guy and how it affected thekids that were upsetting.
yeah, like we kind of bringthings crashing.
Will he like bring thingscrashing down over my like?
Overall, yeah, but then.
But then with what happenedthis last Wednesday with the
whole her telling me thosethings in the garage, I think I

(43:01):
hope maybe I turned a cornerwith that and that incidence
wasn't so destabilizing to me.
I feel like I was able tohandle that Okay and I was like
able to assert my own feelingsand my own thoughts about her
opinions about the situation and, I think, have a measured

(43:22):
amount of concern for myself andthe kids.
Uh, in that, and not let thataffect me at least overly much,
too much, you know yeah, to notbecome too destabilized, and
when you become destabilized,you recover yeah right yeah, I
don't know exactly what it wasthat led to that.

(43:42):
Maybe it maybe it was being ableto talk to my friend before the
trip, or maybe it was the tripitself, or maybe it was time.
You know, I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
But it feels like there was an inflection point
sometime around the time of thetrip whether it's the trip or
something else, we don't knowbut there was some sort of a you
feel, an internal qualitativeshift in how you're relating to
your life.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
Yeah, I think so yeah .
That sounds really meaningful,yeah yeah, or, you know, even if
it was just the video you wereshowing also helped too.
Or, like we talked about, youwere saying that our kids will
see us for who we are forthemselves.
It doesn't matter what anyoneelse says what, what your ex

(44:29):
says about you to them, or, youknow, you know that kind of
carries over to that too, towhere your ex made you
destabilizing things or likehurting me, uh, bring on an
affair partner too soon aroundthe kids.
But those things don'tdestabilize me because I know
that I'll always be the constant, you know.

(44:50):
Yeah, I don't know, we'll see.
You know, hopefully it could be.
Just that thing itself wasn'treally a big deal, so maybe
something else will be a biggerdeal and not too destabilizing.
Who knows?

Speaker 2 (45:04):
Well, something's going to happen for sure, right?
It's not that we achieve this.
I mean, maybe it will happen.
I hope that it will, but itseems unlikely that we'll reach
some point of totalenlightenment and just never
experience upset again.
I think it's more about thefrequency, the intensity and the
duration of the upset.

(45:24):
Basically, as we become moregrounded and as we become more
skilled, we can decrease all ofthose become more grounded and
as we become more skilled, wecan decrease all of those.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, I definitely think it's helpful.
You know, with a lot of the,when I talk to you, we talk
about things in terms ofreframing how we do things or
the framework, uh, like what isit called?
The where you reframe?
It is like the rule in which Igo by when I think about such
and such thing and this, andthat you know, those kind of
reframing things have beenreally helpful.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
I mean, first, I'm glad to hear it and secondly,
I'm not sure what you'rereferring to.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Yeah, I think, just in general, when we talk and I
bring up, you know, certainquestions or certain doubts, and
then you respond with oh well,maybe you think about it this
way or that way.
Like, for instance, I can thinkof two examples, like one of I
mean both of which we've talkedabout before.
One was like giving yourselfpermission to do the things to

(46:22):
take care of yourself, you know,yeah.
And then the reframing thingyou, what you explained was what
would you want for yourchildren or someone you love to
give themselves permission to do, right, yeah.
The other thing was like, um,like a couple of weeks ago, I
was struggling with this thoughtof like, you know, like, even
though I did the best that Icould in our relationship and I

(46:45):
did all these things, I did allthese chores, I took care of the
kids, otherwise, I felt like apretty good father, tried to
meet her needs and stuff, andshe felt like all that stuff is
still not worth, it was worthleaving me for.
And you talked about it in away of like, oh, let's reframe.
It's not like she left you, butit's like you built this house
together and I forgot what theexact specific thing was, but it

(47:08):
wasn't like she left me, it waslike she left the relationship
she left, uh, like the housethat we built together yeah, and
I think that the specificexample or the analogy that I
used there was that, like it'snot only about you, your
relationship is a house thatalso requires some maintenance
when when issues come up and youwere saying that she was

(47:29):
basically never willing tomaintain the relationship Right.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
Yeah.
It needed to be a relationshipthat has no trouble at all for
it to work.
But relationships justnaturally develop friction
points and tears, likeeverything, like any house,
doesn't matter how well built itis.
At some point.
It's going to be a leaksomewhere or something, and you
need to be able to even to atleast acknowledge it and,
ideally, be willing to addressit.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
You said that she wasn't really willing to do
either right.
So it wasn't like she wasn'twilling to invest in me and
there was something inherentlywrong with me per se, but it was
like the relationship.
She wasn't willing to put anywork into maintaining the
relationship, which was verymuch true.
So, yeah, those kinds of thingswere really helpful.
There's definitely moreexamples than just those two.

(48:18):
I'm just trying to think ofthem, you know.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
Yeah, I think I mean, there may not be a more obvious
thing for me to say.
But I think it's good to talkabout these things right and
just hear other ways of thinkingabout them, because if it's
just us in our heads, like we'rejust, we're just rehashing the
same material, and if we're in aself-blaming mood, then that's
all we're going to generate yeahand I imagine I mean you're

(48:42):
saying you definitely love beingin a self-blaming mood, yeah
and you were saying about.
You know, talking with a friendfor three hours and having a
friend to be validating andaffirming, it's huge, it feels
so good and so important.
Of course, you know, ideally wewant to be able to do some
self-validation and be able tomaybe get ourselves out of

(49:02):
self-blame mode, but it's notalways easy to do by ourselves,
especially when the situation iskind of extreme.
Yeah, like it has been for you.
Yeah, when the situation iskind of extreme.
Yeah, like it has been for youyeah.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
So maybe, on that note also, how are you taking
care of yourself these days?
Well, there was the trip, youknow.
So that was nice, yeah, it wasjust nice to get away and then
just kind of be able to and evenwhen I was away to just kind of
be able to look at things froma different perspective, you
know, I mean I don't know whatdifferent perspective that is
exactly, but just I mean, Iguess, to just think about

(49:40):
things.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
Yeah, and like you said also to yeah, to not be in
it also means to not have thatbe maybe such a central part of
your identity.
Yeah, a little bit.
Like you said about your kidstoo, right, like it seems
healthy to not have that be themain.
You know, the first thing yousaid about yourself, right, when
you describe yourself to ahypothetical new person like hi,

(50:03):
I just recently got divorced,or I'm in the process of getting
divorced, or like, maybe thatdoesn't have to be the first
thing, yeah, yeah.
Second, or the third, right,yeah, I think being in a totally
different context lets you dothat.
Like, oh, I'm a guy who takestrips and I have things to talk
about.
There are people here and turnsout I like fermented shark I
wouldn't go that far, but yeah,that was pretty gross.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Uh, that fermented shark, but it was like.
It's like you're saying, havingthat not be like you know, the
center of my identity.
It's almost like when you'rewriting and you're just trying
to get the assignment done andyou kind of write terribly
because you just try to writeand get it done, versus like

(50:48):
when you're proofreading someoneelse's writing and you have
something invested in it.
It's like, I don't know, whenyou're not like in the thick of
it and you're not trying to justget something done or get
through it, you have a totallydifferent perspective on it yeah
, there's less, less timepressure and, I guess, less
pressure in general to to figureit out right.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
So there's there's time to just kind of look at it
and maybe feel it, but notnecessarily do something about
it.
Right now there's more space.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, like my sister and I always do this Like she
sends me something to proofreadand it's all marked up, because
I'm like using passive voicehere and that doesn't really
make sense with the section andor it doesn't flow, or whatever.
And then I always send hersomething and and then she's
also like you're using passivevoice and I'm like, oh, okay, it

(51:40):
also doesn't flow out and I'mlike, okay, I think it's just
like when you're in the middleof your thing, you don't do it.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
Well, yeah, yeah, and I think in this example maybe
you're writing something andthen you go take a trip to the
outside of the world and youread a dare and you find all
these things yeah, yeah, that'sbasically what I felt like.
Yeah yeah, so you got whichreally does sound like you know
some shift in your identity,right?
It's the same as sending it toyour sister.
It's like you're lettingsomebody else look at your

(52:07):
situation and that somebody elseis you in a totally different
context of life.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Yeah, but to answer your question, I just got back
from the trip and, like thisweek, I immediately picked up
the kids and then here today,you know, I got back at 3 am
Because the flight was delayedby a little bit.
So I got back at 3 am and thenext day I picked up the kids at
like 8 o'clock from myex-wife's place because she

(52:33):
needed to go to work orsomething that day.
So I picked up early thatSunday instead, and so where we
talked about it, we discussedabout it, you know.
So I had to pick them up at 8that day and I was super jet
like the whole day.
But I don't know, I don't knowif this is, I don't know if I'm

(52:54):
copping out to this answer howI'm taking care of myself, but I
just this week of being withthem has been good.
Being with them has been veryfulfilling, I guess, enjoyable,
refreshing, nourishing,nourishing.
Yeah, it's not perfect, right,but you know like there's
definitely some yelling thathappens sometimes and but we

(53:14):
went to school and he forgotsome things and I'm like, oh my
gosh, like things that arefrustrating here and there.
It's not perfect like afairytale or anything, but even
then it's like in theapologizing for yelling or
things like that.
Those, those are fulfilling andyou know, I don't know how else
to say it.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Yeah, I hear you there.
They're wholesome.
It's like I mean, this is whatlife should be like, this is
what life is about.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
I just really enjoyed being their dad.
I enjoyed being single.
I got to say people keeptelling me oh, it's just for now
, you're gonna want to dateagain.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
I don't know, man, yeah I get to sleep star-shaped
on the bed.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Yeah, I can eat out of the pod I just don't have to
deal with another person'sschedule.
I don't have, like, only haveto answer to myself.
And you know, I don't have toanswer about someone else's
feelings, just me and my kids,you know.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah it's pretty amazing.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
Yeah, but actually I don't know if that's like, if
I'm just thinking that being ina relationship is going to be
just like being with my ex-wifeagain, because that's the only
relationship I've really everbeen in.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
Yeah, that's a very good point and, as usual, very
astute of you to note right.
I mean, if you only have onemodel, astute of you to to note
right, I mean if you only haveone model, you might have
assumed that it's it's only everlike that, right?
Although I guess I mean youknow other people in
relationships too, right?

Speaker 1 (54:39):
so presumably, yeah, heard from them about and I know
like and I know likeacademically not all women are
like my ex-wife, but but it'sjust more of like a concern with
myself.
You know like I'm always goingto be worrying about, like what
this person's thinking, or, orif this person's happy or
comfortable or whatnot, or maybeit's concerned with my own

(55:01):
unhealthiness and being in arelationship in terms of your
own over focusing on yourpartner's needs.
Yeah, or like oversensitivity, I, I guess for what it's like,
you know, just yeah, for being,I think, just like being in the
course of our marriage, ourrelationship with her, I was

(55:24):
very sensitive to her tone ofvoice, yeah, or I don't know.
I maybe I could have been moresensitive to tone of voice and
some there's a lot't know Imaybe I could have been more
sensitive to tone of voice, andso there's a lot of things I
didn't know about.
I let that affect me a lot.
I don't know.
This whole thing about being ina relationship in the future is
probably going to be a wholenother session.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
You think, you think just one or maybe more than that
.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
Yeah, I just think there's going to be old demons
that I have no interest inhaving in the new relationship.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Yeah, and like you said, I mean this is 100% of
your experience as far as yourkind of internal Bayesian
encounter goes.
It's like this is 100% going tohappen.
Exactly the same way again.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
Yeah, exactly, it's not even just that.
I think it's like the energyexpenditure.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
I'm not ready for the energy expenditure of caring
for you said.
Right now you you're enjoyingjust not having to worry about
anyone other than your kids,which feels like worrying about
them or caring for them feelsawesome and nourishing and
satisfying and you don't needsomebody else to worry about
right now.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Yeah, I think that's the extent of the self-care I've
been doing.
I think I could probably do alittle more exercise than maybe
eating better now that I'm back,you know, just getting back
into the routine of things.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
Yeah, and of course you know the question about
self-care kind of naturallyapplies more to the time that
you're not with your kids,because when you're with them
you feel good.
Yeah, without my son, becauseit's sort of like how you were

(57:31):
saying that a big portion ofyour identity was about being
divorced or going through adivorce and that'd be front and
center.
I think for me for a long timea big part of my identity was
not having access to my son asmuch as I wanted, and so when I
wasn't with him I was sad and atsome point I learned to enjoy

(57:51):
my time without him.
I still prefer time with him,but learning to enjoy my time
without him, and a big part ofit was that not always thinking
about the fact that I'm not withhim when I'm not with him,
right, not having that as myforemost identity.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
When you weren't with him and you were feeling bad or
just not good.
Does it stem from just likemissing your son, or does it
stem from also feelings of guiltto not being present yourself?

Speaker 2 (58:22):
it was really a combination of things, I think.
Okay, sadness about notspending time with him, it was
about feeling angry and upsetabout the unfairness of not
getting to spend time with him.
Like every moment that I spentaway from him seemed to me like
an offense against me and mefeeling powerless around it.

(58:46):
So I was feeling sad about that, I was feeling angry and
frustrated about that.
I was feeling really afraidbecause I didn't know if that's
ever going to change or do Ijust need to get used to seeing
him?
That seemed to me like verylittle time.
So it was a lot of reallyproblematic emotions and I think
the untangling happened also,working on all of those
simultaneously.

(59:06):
Basically, yeah right.
Becoming, reassuring myself thatactually I don't need to be
afraid because our relationshipis very strong and that it's not
just about the time we spenttogether but the quality, and
looking at other sort ofindicators of the strength of
our relationship, and thenrecognizing that, you know,
whatever was happening maybewasn't fair, but it didn't mean

(59:28):
that I did something wrong orthat I didn't try enough or
anything like that, and so justkind of shrinking it back to the
right proportion.
So that takes away the guilt,like you were saying before.
Right, Did I feel guilty?
At the beginning, yes, and thenlater, no, because I realized
I'm doing everything I canpossibly do and the fact that
it's not leading to the resultsthat I want quickly doesn't mean

(59:50):
I'm doing something wrong.
It means I mean the system isdesigned poorly, the capital S
system, but it doesn't mean thatI'm doing something wrong.
And then, much later after allof that was just really coming
to enjoy my time alone orwithout him, rather, and
recognizing that there are allkinds of activities that I do

(01:00:12):
that I just wouldn't be able todo if he was with me, for
example, all the time, or I'dneed to find some other
logistical solution.
I guess people get babysitters.
It's unimaginimaginable to geta babysitter, Cause I, you know,
cause I enjoy the time with himso much and I don't have a lot
of it.
But if I had him all the time,I'm sure that that's something I
would be considering.
But yeah, coming to to enjoythe time away from him by not

(01:00:34):
spending time away from him,yeah Cool.
I totally resonate with allthose yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
I guess I got to work on the thing about like being
okay with my time without them.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Yeah, so one thing that was very helpful for me is
finding things that were reallyfun to do, like that I really
enjoy doing and that I could notdo with him.
Yeah, and then just schedulingthem for the times that I could
not do with him yeah.
And then just scheduling themfor the times that we're not
together.
So there was something there andyou know, very similar to what
you were saying before about thefake it till you make it right,

(01:01:11):
the peeping through my fingersat the parts of the show that I
could tolerate, yeah, you know.
So maybe at the beginning if Ihad two, three days without him,
I'd be really upset.
But there was this like oneclass that I really liked that I
knew I was going for for twohours and that was a point of
light, right, and it would breakthe the upset and then over

(01:01:33):
time again having more of thosethings but also just being less
upset away from him and learningto enjoy my life separately,
upset away from him and learningto enjoy my life separately.
But I think, I think schedulinggood stuff is super important
because then it's not a medeciding then and there, right,
like I'm never going to decideto just intensely exercise in
order to feel better.
It's just never going to happen.
But if, if I have a jujitsuclass that I go to regularly at

(01:01:55):
the same hour, I'm going to go,yeah, and I'll feel better.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Yeah, I'm gonna go, yeah, and I'll feel better, yeah
.
Yeah, I think it's kind of upand down for me, like there's
something coming up next weekwith my ex-wife that I know I'm
missing out on and it's kind ofa big deal and I know I'm not
going to be able to be therejust because of the custody
arrangement and things like that, and so that kind kind of sucks
.
You know what is the thing.

(01:02:21):
So my older one, he got reallyinto aviation and avionics and
so he's really into planes andstuff and so like there's once
you're this thing where the Navycomes and they do this air show
with Blue Angels, all thesethings, and he's looking forward
to going and it's on the weekwhere they're with her, so she's

(01:02:43):
going to take them, and I knewthis for a while.
So actually there was this bigfiasco where she was kind of
like beating around the bush andoutright lying to me, like
saying that she might not beable to take him because she
would be too busy, quote,unquote.
But actually it was because shewanted to take the boys with her

(01:03:03):
, with that guy and his kid youknow, so in the end it was like,
well, if you're not going totake him, then we should tell
him, because he would want to go.
At the end I was like,ultimately I can kind of tell
him and let him down gently,because it's something that I
had told him about in the firstplace.
And then she was like, ok, youknow actually.

(01:03:24):
She came clean and she said, no, actually we're going to take
him with that guy and his kid,and I was like, ok, well, so it
wasn't that you were too busy,it was just that you just didn't
want to tell me that.
You know so some weeks areharder than others, you know,
without the boys, you know sosome weeks are harder than
others, you know without theboys.
You know, yeah, but even thenthat incident that happened a

(01:03:46):
couple weeks ago and I wasreally upset at the time but I
was just kind of able tonowadays I'm kind of able to
think past that and be like youknow, that's just one thing in
the grand scheme of things.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
It's not like they're going to love me any less
because I can't be with them,things like that.
It's so great that you're ableto give yourself that in in real
time right, and as time passesyou'll collect more and more
examples of these things beingtrue and realize that there's
not a threat to the relationshipthere.
But at the beginning it's scary, right, because you don't know,
you haven't been through itlike, you don't actually know if
you know going to the aviationshow without you is going to
matter or not.

(01:04:27):
I mean you sort of know.
But like you say, academicallyright you know academically, but
actually I mean, I want to gosee the blue angels too yeah,
but but as these things happen,hopefully you start collecting
evidence that it doesn't changethe relationship and maybe he
comes and he's like superexcited about it and he tells
you about it.
Maybe you watch, you knowyoutube movies about it, maybe
you find some other air show togo together.
Yeah well, no, maybe not, butlike you said, I mean it's very

(01:04:51):
unlikely that it'll actuallyhurt the relationship in any way
.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Yeah, I mean it's not I'm still sad, but it's still
disappointing that I was,because originally, like I was
asked if I could kind of tagalong if she was going to.
I mean, it's not I'm still sad,but it's still disappointing
that I wasn't Cause originally,like I was asked if I could kind
of tag along if she was goingto take the boys.
I was kind of like, hey, can Itake it along?
And she's like no, I'm gonnabring that guy and so so I don't
want to be there at all, youknow.
And so it's just like being sadabout missing out on that

(01:05:15):
experience.
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, youknow being able to see his face
light up when he sees theairplanes and when he sees the
jets and stuff, yeah, yeah, andI think again in this context, I
think this is part of why it'sso important to schedule really
fun things for ourselves.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
And not have it be only about the kids.
Yeah.
So that we can be fully chargedwith the kids too.
The image that scares me themost and I think I think I was
that for for some time, longtime, much longer than you, and
probably a year, maybe two.
It's kind of a Jack in the box,dad you know where, like I was
just kind of hiding in my boxand unhappy until my son showed

(01:05:55):
up and then I sprang out and Iwas.
I was genuinely very happy andenergized and then he went away
and I would just like cry and beupset and just like hide in my
hole.
Oh, I don't think that's great.
You know, and it's not great forhim.
I don't think he saw any of itand part of what snapped me out
of it was realizing that thiscould create some sort of a
strain on him.
If he somehow senses againbecause kids are telepathic,

(01:06:17):
right and if he somehow sensesthat I'm sad that he's leaving
and that can create some guiltfor him or some tension.
So like again, like I'm justlining stuff up literally for
after he leaves, right, so thatthere's something for me to look
forward to, so that I don'tapply any kind of emotional
pressure on him Right.
And with time I came to begenuinely into those things and

(01:06:39):
I'm I wouldn't say I'm lookingforward to him leaving I don't
think that would ever be truebut I'm also, like, really happy
for the next thing coming up.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
And it took some work to find those things and to get
myself to the point where it'strue, but I think it's so good
for me and so good for him andso good for our relationship
just like an element of justhaving to accept that this is
the reality, right, like thereality is that I'm going to
miss out on a few things, andfirst experience is that she's
going to be the one toexperience it with them, and

(01:07:08):
vice versa, you know, yeah yeah,it's just going to be imperfect
yeah, and that's just theconsequence of this, this life
choice that we made.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah, maybe there's no answer right
now, but I guess what what I'masking when I ask about how are
you caring for yourself?
I'm asking specifically aboutthe times when they're not with
you, and how can you make it sothat you have things to look
forward to during the times thatthey're not with you so next
week I'm actually going to visitmy parents uh, again.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
So I'll see my dad again.
I mean, I just stopped him offthis past tuesday and I was oh,
I'll see you next.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
This next week Are you going to do a slideshow
about the trip to the rest ofthe family?
Yeah, probably.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
But it's also my sister's birthday.
It was also just like thesecheap plane tickets, like
Southwest was having a sale forlike $29 flights.
Oh, I love when they do that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
So I was like okay.

Speaker 1 (01:07:57):
I guess I'm going to put those lights.
Yeah, perfect timing.
Yeah, the timing just happenedto work out that way.
So next week I'll see my family.
I'm sure there'll be plenty ofdistractions Just chatting with
my mom and stuff like that yeah.
So yeah, I did all the talkingwith my dad, like last week when
we were in Denmark, that'sright.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
All of the talking Right Right.
Nothing more for the comingmonth or two.
So yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
So next week I got something lined up with, you
know, for the week without thekids, and then I did set
expectations with them, like sohey, I'm going to go on this
trip, so don't be toodisappointed if I'm going
without you.
They're like okay, it's okay,fine, just bring us back
something.
Yeah, yeah.
So there's that, and, um, I mean, we'll figure it out as we go

(01:08:44):
along.
Um, you know, uh, before theDenmark trip, I tried to like
pick up playing video gamesagain, and you know, um, when
the kids weren't here, but Idon't really enjoy video games
that much anymore.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
Yeah, growing up much anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
yeah, yeah, growing up is a bummer uh huh, so I
don't know reading maybe I'vebeen finishing up this like
sci-fi series, so oh, there wego.
This is the um.
Have you seen the amazon showthe expanse?
It's like on the sci-fi channel.
Yeah, so this is the thisseries of nine books.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
So you're reading the expansion.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Yeah, the expansion, yeah, so this is like the last
one.
So the show only covers thefirst six books and then it got
canceled or whatever.
So I just read book seven,eight and nine.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Well, that does sound like fun.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
Yeah, but a class would be cool.
I don't know.
Yeah, I'm thinking of likesomething like a class.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
Yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan.
I think class also gives yousome community right and that's
that's so nice.
Yeah Of people, that kind ofsmile when they see you.
You know that you smile whenyou see them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I wonder well, maybe I don'tknow if you have thoughts now
or something you could think ofit later, but what kind of class
might be interesting for you?

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
something you could think about later.
But what kind of class might beinteresting for you?
Yeah, I'll have to think aboutthat.
I'm not really sure yet.
You know, wouldn't a class meetweekly, and then the weeks that
I have the kids I'd still haveto go to the class.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
Well, yeah, I guess that'll take some creativity.
But even if the example I'mfamiliar with is martial arts,
right, I mean, generallyspeaking, I have classes many
times a week and they're drop-inright and it doesn't really
matter.
I mean, you're not going tobecome a state champion by not
training every week, four timesa week, but maybe that's not
your goal right now.
Right you know, so you could becoming just in the weeks they're

(01:10:34):
not there.
Or however you want to set itup, like, as long as it's a drop
in class, then it can be OK.
Or if you want to do an improvpractice group that meets weekly
, you know, maybe you go on theon the off week.
Yeah right, or a hiking groupor a mountain biking group?
Yeah, yeah, so we have apainting like that studio or

(01:10:54):
whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
Right, yeah, something to think about and
look into.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
Yeah, you know, I definitely have a lot of hobbies
and stuff and yeah, so muchfree time now that you're not
playing video games.

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
Yeah, yeah, right I know Kind of a bummer that I'm
not into them anymore.
It's okay, More productivethings to do with my time.
I think that's what it is, Ithink.
When I'm playing the game I'mjust like I just feel so
unproductive.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
You can feel yeah, time is not being used well
right now.
You're right.
What am I learning exactly?
A, B, A, B.
I knew that, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
All right, I got to get going to pick up the kids
soon.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Yeah, Thank you for the talk with you, as usual, and
again I think you're doingreally great work just with
yourself through this process.
I mean you're sounding reallywell.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
Trying to.
Yeah, all right, thanks, mypleasure.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah, I would be here withoutyou, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:52):
Oh, really my pleasure.
Thanks for letting me in.
Yeah, okay, have fun on theweekend.
All right.
Thanks, you too.
Bye-.