From "You Want a Divorce?" to "I'm Happy This Happened"

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:00):
When you go through it, you just don't really see the
light at the end of the tunnel.
For me, I can honestly lookback and say I'm happy that this
happened.
I am a happier person than Iwas.
I'm discovering more aboutmyself and who I am and who the
kids are, and I wouldn't havebelieved you if you had told me
that was what my life was goingto be like a year ago.

Eran Magen, Ph.D. (00:20):
Welcome to the Divorcing Dads podcast.
My name is Dr Eran Magen.
Join.
Welcome to the Divorcing Dadspodcast.
My name is Dr Eran Magin.
Join me for honestconversations with divorcing
dads about their journey ofhealing.
Our goal is to support andempower divorcing dads to stay
connected with their childrenwhile living a life they love.
To protect the privacy of thedads I speak with we change
their voice as well as names,locations and other potentially

(00:41):
identifying information.
If you are feeling hopeless orunsafe, please call 988, which
offers free and confidentialcounseling 24-7.
You are not alone.
Your kid's life will be betterwith you in it.
Don't give up.
That number again is 988.
And now let's turn to today'sepisode.

(01:05):
Mark and I had been talking fora few months before we started
recording our conversations withthe hope that they would be
helpful for other people goingthrough similar experiences.
To bring you up to speed, westart with Mark summarizing his
experiences that have led up tothe point where we started the
recording.
So a little bit like in StarWars, starting in episode three
with a synopsis.

(01:25):
Later episodes will have a verydifferent format, where you'll
hear Mark processing experiencesthat he's had recently and
trying to figure out what to doabout them and how to address
challenges that he's goingthrough, what has worked for him
and what hasn't.
Over the course of his story,mark will also share some
practical advice for navigatingthe first few weeks and months

(01:46):
of a divorce, including how toseek support, how to set
boundaries with the ex,including physical boundaries,
and how to get through the baddays.
Mark's story will probably soundfamiliar to many of you who've
been through a divorce.
When you hear it, I hope thatyou will realize that you're not
alone.
But, more importantly, I hopethat it helps realize that
you're not alone.
But, more importantly, I hopethat it helps you realize that

(02:07):
there is a light at the end ofthe tunnel, because even though
Mark's story has a darkbeginning, it's actually a story
of hope.
And to help drive this pointhome, here are some words from
Mark.

Mark (02:19):
The sucky part about suffering is when you go through
it, you just don't really seethe light at the end of the
tunnel, even if it's a greatthing For me.
I can honestly look back andsay I'm happy that this happened
, like I am a happier personthan I was.
I'm discovering more aboutmyself and who I am and who the
kids are, and just cherishingthe time I have with my kids and

(02:41):
myself.
But like I wouldn't have knownthat and I wouldn't have
believed you if you had told methat was what my life was going
to be like a year ago.

So, as you listen to his story, keep in
mind there is a happy ending.
With that, let's turn to therecording of our conversation.

Mark (03:02):
Hey, hey, ron, hey, How's it going Good.

Good, I feel like I haven't seen you in a
while.
For some reason, it's been alittle bit over two weeks, right
?

Mark (03:16):
I guess.
So yeah, but it's funny thatlittle difference feels palpable
, I guess, for friends.
Huh, that's why that's how youknow.

Yeah, you miss talking to the other person
.
Yeah.

Mark (03:23):
So we wanted to go over the story today, right?

I would really love to, if you're up for
it.

Mark (03:27):
That's great.
This is going to be off thecuff.
I don't really have anythingwritten down, so it's going to
be.

Okay, so the goal is to review I mean
starting as far back as you like, essentially, and kind of
bringing us to the presentmoment, including things that
happen and things you rememberthinking and figuring out.

Mark (03:44):
So, okay, sure, I guess we can start off.
In April of this past year wehad just passed our 13th year
anniversary of marriage.
We had just gotten back from avacation a spring break vacation
with the kids.
The night we got back I put thekids to bed.
My wife at the time asked me tokind of just have a talk, which

(04:08):
we don't really do that oftenor even at all.
That's when she asked me for adivorce.
She said she had said things tothe effect of well, you know
I'm unhappy, you know we haven'tbeen intimate in a long time
and that makes me feel unlovedand you haven't really been

(04:31):
taking care of me or payingattention to me or anything like
that, making it feel like thiswas basically like my fault.
And she had said I want tostart dating other people, I
want to start seeing otherpeople.
There's a guy that I'minterested in and she'd been
going climbing on her own for along time.
It was kind of something that Ihelped support her in doing,

(04:55):
just support, being like youknow, yeah, her achievements and
everything that, and alsotaking care of the kids so that
she could go do that and hangout with her friends.
I didn't know that there wasanything going on at all.
So we had that talk that night.
I said you know, really I'm nothappy either.

(05:16):
We haven't been sleeping in thesame bed in a long time, unless
if the kids want to go to sleepor whatever, because of my
snoring and stuff like that.
I also wasn't happy that shedidn't want to work on it,
because a few times in the pastI said let's go to a counselor,

(05:38):
let's go to work on things.
Even if things are going well,let's just do a checkup, just a
healthy habit of meeting with aparent counselor or a couple's
counselor or whatever.
And all this time she said, no,I'm fine.
So she never wanted to do anycounseling or anything or work
on it.
And then the next week or so Ihad read just a few things, you

(06:00):
know, searching through thingslike I do, like when I panic,
right and I came across someadvice that said, hey,
infidelity isn't necessarily theend of a marriage, it's just
kind of a symptom of needingsomething in the relationship
and you could still see acounselor and work on your
marriage, right.
I didn't really know howserious or committed she was to

(06:24):
having the divorce About a weeklater, during one of our talks,
I just asked her point blank hey, is there something going on
already?
Are you already having an affair?
And she replied kind of I said,are you seeing someone?

(06:44):
And she said yeah, I'm seeingsomeone.
And I said have you slept withthis person?
She said yeah, I've slept withsomeone.
And I said, yeah, you knowthat's an affair, right, I mean,
and I think it had been goingon for some time In the past
year or so, everything just kindof clicked into place.
As I look back, these signs andall the actions and stuff now

(07:07):
come to light and now it alljust makes sense, right, I
didn't ask her and I hadn'tasked her how long I'd been
going on for, because I justreally don't want to know.
But you know, in the past youkind of turned off the her
location sharing on her phonefor a month at a time In the
past year, I guess over a year,she had started to act pretty
cold.
By the time she'd asked me forthe divorce I was already

(07:30):
walking on eggshells sometimesor just being so unsure of stuff
, like when she got home fromwork and I think and you and I
have talked about this too A lotof it was due to maybe, her own
guilt about having the affair.
Just needed to find somethingor some fault in me to just make

(07:52):
her feel better about it, orthings like that.
So I'm jumping around a littlebit in the story, but all there
is to say is that a lot of thebehavior she had in the past
towards me just started to makesense.
Our marriage was pretty dead, Isay for at least a year.
Me just started to make sense.
Our marriage was pretty dead, Isay for at least a year or so.
Prior to that April, she'd beentreating me pretty poorly, like
I said, and one of therealizations that I had was that

(08:14):
the word contempt came to mind.
She treated me with theattitude of contempt in the past
year or so.
A lot of sarcasm.
Year or so, a lot of sarcasm, alot of disregard for my needs,
a lot of just general lack ofcaring.
It wasn't like an upright hate,but it was definitely contempt,

(08:35):
like I read something later onabout like relationships and
about how there's contempt ormaybe I read that first, but
definitely an accuratedescription of her attitude
towards me.
Leading up to that, leading upto the divorce, I had always
thought well, it's been astressful time for her at work.

(08:56):
She took on a new role just forher to be there more often, to
carry a lot more administrativeburden at work, which she hadn't
been doing.
So I really thought that workwas what was making her unhappy,
and just the stress from thatposition.
And things got really busyduring and after the pandemic at

(09:17):
work.
So, yeah, we then decided toseparate in June, june 1st of
this year, and we went through amediation process from June
through mid-August to just kindof finalize the mediation
process.
It was mostly amicable, I think, just mostly, because we didn't

(09:39):
want to get lawyers involved.
You know how expensive that is.
I had recently just heard astory from a friend.
She had mentioned that one ofher friends was going through a
really messy divorce and it justcosted a lot of money.
And I just felt like we feltlike we could navigate this on
our own and we did One issueduring the mediation and you and

(10:00):
I have talked a lot about that,like her mendacity.
I guess, through this mediationprocess, I would ask for certain
concessions, being the onewho's been cheated on and being
the one who's, you know, hasbeen managing most of our
family's financials for the last13 years.

(10:20):
You know, knowing how it allgoes on asking her for like she
wanted me to buy her out of herportion of the equity of the
home.
But I asked her if she couldtake on a little bit less of
that so I could buy her up for alittle lower amount, so I could
have some, or so I could justbe more financially secure.

(10:41):
She would initially agree tothese concessions.
She would say things like oh,I'm not out here to suck you dry
.
Yeah, I'm kind of fine withjust taking this or that or less
than 50% of her share that shewas asking for.
She even said, now that we'recoming upon tuition renewal for

(11:01):
the kids, she even said let'ssplit tuition 60-40, and I'll
pay 60 and you pay 40%, becauseshe does make that much more
than I do.
So we're kind of at a 60-40split.
When it all came to mediation,it all went out the window.
She just wanted 50-50 ofeverything, which just really
caught me off guard.
And then the mediator wouldoften take her side anyway,

(11:25):
which was really weird.
So the mediator would take herside, because the mediator just
wanted to see everything 50-50,even though we had had other
verbal agreements, the mediatordidn't care.
During the mediation Imentioned, the mediator would
kind of take her side.
It wasn't like outright, but itwas just like little
microaggressions and things shewould say really encouraging

(11:48):
things, like you're being sogenerous by giving up the house
or because you work and yourpaycheck reflects all your work,
or whatever.
She would answer questions likeI would have on her behalf, but
when questions were asked of me, she would just make me do it.
So like the mediation was alittle bit rough.

(12:10):
I didn't feel I mean, I know wesplit everything down 50-50,
but I didn't really feel like itwas a just process.
It was fair, I guess.
Most importantly, though, Iguess, are the kids.
So we have two kids One isseven and one is age nine.
Both kids have initially like Iguess I just know where to

(12:35):
begin Like the main thing forboth of us was the well-being of
our children.
At least I like to think so.
When we initially told our kidsthe news, there were some tears
, and so we were very, verycareful to explain.
Nothing would change about theway we loved them when none of
this was their fault, thingslike that.
Right, and I think we had metwith a divorce coach I think is

(12:58):
what it was called thatspecializes in children, and she
had given us some pointersabout what to talk about and how
to tell the kids, so it wasreally helpful.
One thing, though, was that shediscouraged us from explaining
to the children that mom had anaffair, which makes sense.
I mean, you don't really wantyour kids to have to know that

(13:21):
and process that.
It is, at the end of the day,still very convenient for her
that that has to be done likethat.
So, anyway, like the kidsthroughout this whole process up
through the day have been, Iguess, the one word I would use
which is not a word I would usewith children often, but it's

(13:41):
just generous, generous inspirit, very patient do this
with children often, but it'sjust generous, generous in
spirit, very patient.
They've kind of definitelyexuded resilience through all of
this.
I think the teachers have, inthe conferences that we've had
this year, have just said if youdidn't tell us you were

(14:02):
divorced, we wouldn't have known.
So the kids are okay.
There have been struggles,though the older one early on in
the process, like when we weregoing to have a follow-up
meeting with the divorce coach.
One got into mom's phone andread a bunch of texts between
her and her other partner and hegot really, really upset and so

(14:26):
I think to this day he stillharbors some resentment towards
that or unprocessed feelingsabout that.
I think he knows.
I think he knows mom had anaffair and he just doesn't know
how to express it.
It's hard for me too becauselike I'm not supposed to tell
him about that or any of thesort of details about that.
But I've helped him processthrough certain feelings, like
saying you know, this wholedivorce is mommy's fault, or

(14:49):
things like that.
I just feel like a lot of timesI'm there picking up the pieces
of her wake of destruction.
Throughout all of this, theyounger one has also had some
issues where his issues are morelike I miss the other parent
when they're not here.
Initially it was mostly amissing mommy, and then he'd say

(15:12):
, oh, I really don't miss you atall, which was funny because
I'm the one that's still here,so at this home, and I'd like to
think that I'm prettyconsistent.
So, yeah, so the younger one'sissues have mainly been about
missing a parent and we've beentalking through that extensively
and he seems to be doing a bitbetter these days.

(15:34):
With that, we've also hadissues on myself.
I've had issues processing thedivorce and in terms of like
what this new relationship withmy ex-wife is and what it looks
like, where to draw theboundaries.
Most of the issues in the firstfew months were regarding her
and the other guy, me just notbeing okay with the fact that

(15:55):
she's still with that personthat she cheated and that she
has him in our kid's lifebecause he's coming over all the
time.
At this time he's basicallyliving with them and he's just
not a good guy.
He's, from what I know, cheatedon his wife to be with my ex

(16:16):
and he has a kid of his own aswell, and he knew he knew my ex
was married and had children.
Doesn't matter how nice he isor how good of a daddy he is
with his own kid or allegedly,he's just not a good guy and I
don't want him in my children'slives and I don't think my
feelings about that will everchange, and so that is the root

(16:36):
of a lot of anger that I havetowards my ex.
We also had issues withboundaries, like I'd mentioned.
We also had issues withboundaries.
Like I'd mentioned, we hadissues with her showing up to my
home unannounced using her oldgarage door opener to open the
garage.
That wasn't great.
So any tips to divorced dadsout there just make sure you get

(17:01):
the keys, you know, and thegarage door opener.
So, yeah, we had an incidentthat we kind of, and I'll delve
a little deeper into that.
She asked if she could comeover initially and I said no, I
don't think it's a good idea.
And then later on that nightshe had a video chat with the
kids when I wasn't present, andafter that made arrangements for

(17:22):
herself to come over and dropsomething off under the guise of
like I need to give themsomething.
She came and give them goodnight hugs and and they're still
very and I'm very triggered bytheir presence, and it was still
pretty raw at the time, and soI was hiding in my own house
because she came over withoutannouncing it to me, without me

(17:46):
even being able to prepare forit, and, yeah, it wasn't good.
Later that week I got my keysin my garage door opener back.
Lately, I think it's been aboutsix months since the separation,
eight months since we talkedabout the divorce.
Since that time I've gotten alot of support from my family,

(18:07):
from my sisters especially, anda lot of my friends and people
from church.
They've been really helpful,checking in, keeping me in their
thoughts and prayers and justspending time with me on Friday
nights or whatever, and I'vedone a lot of processing with
them right.
So lately I think I'm in apretty healthy place, you know,

(18:31):
emotionally.
I don't know about spiritually,but I'm still going to church
and taking the kids and stuffLately with the kids.
They're still okay for the mostpart.
I think the latest issues withthem which we've talked through
in the past, the latest issueswith them, have been them

(18:52):
feeling a little bit ofresentment towards their mom
with having that guy over allthe time.
My older one especially doesnot like his kid and I don't
think he really likes the guyvery much and there's not really
much I can do about that.
I've tried to at leastencourage him to have some
agency and to talk to his momabout it.
So he's not.

(19:13):
I guess initially he was justshoving it all down and so he
wasn't talking to her about it.
Also, he was just generallyunhappy around them, making her
upset also generally unhappyaround them, making her upset
also.
And when I was speaking to himhe was like, well, if I talk to

(19:34):
mom, this is not going to changeanything, and that kind of
broke my heart.
At least I've encouraged him tohave some agency throughout all
of this and to tell her how hefeels and he did.
And I told him how proud I wasof him of doing that.
And he was kind of sad about itbecause I think her response
was that nothing was going tochange and there's nothing that
anyone's going to say about it.
If not him, then nothing isgoing to change.

(19:57):
I'm sure I've missed some ofthe details we've talked about
before, but that's basically thestory, the play-by-play version
of how things have been overthe past half year.

Thank you.
You said along the way thatwhen your son said that the
whole divorce was mommy's fault,you helped him process it.
How did you respond to himabout that?

Mark (20:22):
I think I've said some things, or like when we talked
about like, I said some things Imaybe shouldn't have said.
I didn't disagree with him, butI also said like it's not all
her fault 100, and there werethings I could have done too.
You know, I really don't knowexactly what I said, but but
it's like it's not 100% herfault.
You know, it's personally forme.

(20:45):
I think I don't believe fullythat divorce is 100% one
person's fault to the others.
So in the end I always tell mykids I'd rather have a kid who
expresses sadness about thiswhole thing.
Ultimately, you know, it wasway better that we're not
together anymore.
I used to kind of say that no,you know, every day is different

(21:12):
.
Every day has its ups and downs, right?
I think I'm generally happierwith her not in the picture
anymore, or not in the pictureevery day anymore.

There was a time at the start of the process
when we talked about yourfeelings toward her and how
they've been changing throughoutthe process as well.
Is that something you can talkabout?

Mark (21:34):
I think there was some time I don't remember a few
months ago where I kind of cameto the realization that I used
to feel gross and icky aboutthat guy.
But then I wouldn't feel thesame way about her for a while,
you know, because I was marriedto her for 13 years and she is

(21:56):
the mother of my kids.
Right Up until like a couplemonths ago, I just started
feeling the same way about hertoo, like this is just grossed
out by the whole, by what shedid, and just triggered by her
presence.
You know, when I see her whichis tough because you know the
kids have performances at schooland so I, you know, when I see

(22:19):
her and behave differently.
I don't know how to explain it,but like a couple months ago,
when I had that realization thatI also can prove the epiphany
that like I don't love heranymore and I had initially felt
bad about that or felt somewhatguilty about that, even though

(22:40):
she couldn't love me anymore, itwas just that natural reaction
to me that I'm supposed to loveeverybody and I'm supposed to
love the mother of my children,and it was just unfamiliar
territory.
We also talked about seeing oldpictures of her.
I have various apps andwhatever, and they show you old

(23:01):
pictures on your phone or likewe have a photo frame, this
Google Home thing that shows youpictures right From, like your
Google photos, and she happensto be in those photos.
And then I thought maybe Ishould delete all the photos
with her, but then I realized Ididn't have to, because in the
course leading up to the divorceshe changed a lot and so she

(23:22):
was almost like a differentperson than the one in those
photos and I almost think of theold person my ex being a
totally different person.
That's not there, and so thattook some processing and some
mourning actually Just mourningand so when I see old photos of

(23:44):
her, I don't feel resentment oranger.
It just reminds me of her.
I feel sad because this personis gone.
I hope that answers it.

Yeah, and next to another thing that we
talked about a couple of times,about the way that you were
processing, kind of, your rolein the separation and divorce
right, your contribution to it alittle bit connects also, I
guess, to the question that yourson asked, right, kind of whose
fault is it?
But I'm remembering that youwere also processing what sort

(24:18):
of percentage of it was you andyour behavior in the
relationship when you weretogether.

Mark (24:23):
Yeah, yeah, percentage of it was you and your behavior in
in the relationship when youwere together.
Yeah, yeah, I think of courseit's always easy to look in that

(24:43):
I did the best that I could.
I know that the divorce wasn't100% her fault, even though she
was the one who instigated theaffair and things like that and

(25:09):
things like that, even thoughshe had unmet needs and I wasn't
providing happiness to her andI was normalizing the unhealthy
stuff.
I probably could have pushed alittle harder.
I could have insisted more onsleeping in the same bed, right.
I probably could have puttogether some more opportunities
to have intimate encounters andstuff, right, but that's also a
two-way street.
I could have pushed more formarriage counseling rather than

(25:33):
just in the past year, and maybegone through or followed
through with that more seriously.
So there were things that Icould have shifted and done,
which, if we're going to becalculating percentages yeah,
you know I don't even want to dothat because I don't know how

(25:53):
effective that is.
I think, though, as I look backat the things that I did, I
feel pretty confident orsatisfied that I did the best
that I could with what I had atthe time, and that helps me
sleep at night and I want tokeep it that way, going forward.
It's really important to methat in just keeping things move

(26:17):
forward and making sure thateverything is done the right way
, so that I can look back andwhen my kids are adults and say
that, that and say that I did mybest, you know, and I did my
best in being your dad and youknow and raising you guys.
I did that and I lived thiswhole thing out with integrity.
Like I think I raised him inthe past too, like even during

(26:42):
the mediation which she didn'tknow about certain places she
had.
We had invested money becausethey were under my name, but she
was legally entitled them.
So I just brought them up sothat she knew about them like
honor code.
I could have not mentioned itand just put it under the rug
and I would have been okay, butI'm not even gonna think about
that but making sure that shegot fully 50% of what she was

(27:06):
entitled to.
Or even during Thanksgiving, shewasn't for some reason in our
separation agreement.
She wasn't listed.
At Thanksgiving I reached outto her and I said, hey, do you
want to have Thanksgiving dinneror night with them over the
holiday with the kids.

(27:27):
And just for context, in ourseparation agreement it says
that the other parent isentitled to them over New Year's
Day and Christmas Day orwhatever in those holidays, or
have at least part of theholidays together.
So I offered that forThanksgiving too.
Or have at least part of theholidays together.
So I offered that forThanksgiving too.

Just trying to make sure that there's
nothing that can be identifiedor anything that I could think
of that wasn't done to theseparation or to the failure of
the relationship was a time whenwe talked about it and you said
something along the lines ofyou feeling like you were just
not enough to sustain herinterest that when I was just

(28:25):
lost in my own thoughts orthinking about stuff along the
lines of me being my bestthroughout the course of our
marriage, well, it lasted withwhat I knew, the thought comes
in with well, even though youdid all that, she still found it
worth it to leave you, right?

Mark (28:39):
She still decided to leave you.
So it wasn't enough, right?
Also, a friend said somethingelse to me that was kind of
funny.
It was that we had builtsomething together and she was
just leaving everything we hadbuilt.
She was just leaving a marriagethat we had built together.
It wasn't something intrinsicor about me.
It wasn't that she, it wasn'tsomething intrinsic or about me

(29:03):
or something that I did.
She just decided not to staythere anymore.
And the funny thing my friendsaid I'm pretty stereotypical
guy he's like so let me put itin a way that you'll understand,
dear Mark Like 50% of somethingis still an F.
And I was like, yeah, I thinkwe're both working on this

(29:26):
project.
And she just decided not topull her weight anymore.
So of course it's going to fail.
Like all the best you're goingto get is 50%.
And that's what happened.
I think that's pretty accurate.
I think I put a lot into it.
I would say it's 0% all thetime towards raising our kids.
You know, I'd be missed to sayif our kids are who they are not

(29:49):
because of her, but yeah.

You said that you feel like your kids are
generally doing well throughthis with some issues and some
blips, but by and large prettygood.
This with some issues and someblips, but by and large pretty
good.
When the separation started,when you were preparing for it
in the initial stages of it, didyou have concerns about how
they would fare through this?

Mark (30:14):
we didn't have any specific concerns.
We were just generally worriedabout how they would process how
things would go.
My older one is not veryemotionally expressive, I would
say he just kind of keeps tohimself, very much an introvert,
he doesn't like to go outside.

(30:35):
So our concern really was thathe would have feelings that
would be left unexpressed.
And still sometimes we havethat concern still.
So initially what we tried to dowas find some therapy for him.
Like we met with a childtherapist and he met with them

(30:57):
twice and both times he didn'twant to open up to her or any of
the questions that she had.
Of times he didn't want to openup to her or any of the
questions that she had.
So, based on the questions thetherapist would ask, we talked
about best practices and shejust didn't seem too concerned
about his well-being and theone-on-one sessions with him and

(31:18):
the therapist just didn't goanywhere.
And he seems pretty okay atschool, from what I can see and
from what the teachers aresaying.
They say he's pretty sociableand he always just has new
friends and so he has just a fewreally good friends.
The things that I was reallyconcerned about and really I'm

(31:38):
still unhappy about, like he,she would let him read all the
texts and stuff, which that wasreally poor move and do you and
your ex?

throughout the process, did you discuss how
things are going for the kidsor how to make sure that the
kids are okay?
Are you still talking aboutthem and trying to coordinate or
or at least synchronizeinformation?
We at least synchronizeinformation.

Mark (32:02):
We at least synchronize information.
We're on reasonable talkingterms, speaking terms, and most
of our communication is in textand email.
So anything that needs to bedone we're on the same page
about.
As far as their well-being goes, it's harder because most of

(32:23):
their sources of well-being haveto do with her and that guy you
know.
And so if I really talk abouthow the kids are feeling about
her and that guy, it can justcome across as like
self-motivated, just because I'msaying, hey, the kids weren't
happy because someone went intotheir room the other day, or the

(32:44):
kid went in their room theother day, or whatever.
Or like the younger one's happybecause his toys are out, or
he's more like they're sayingthat the divorce is mommy's
fault or whatever.
And it's just not easy tocommunicate that without just
not seeming like I'm accusingher of being a bad parent or

(33:06):
something, as much as I'd liketo do that.

How has the divorce and the physical
separation in multiplehouseholds, how has all that
affected your connection withyour kids?

Mark (33:22):
There's good and the bad, believe it or not.
There's the bad stuff rightwhere they're just missing the
other parent or the other, theyounger ones missing, but the
other ones kind of said, I misseither of you, I'm just with the
parent who has me.
So the negatives are definitelythat, like maybe we're doing
something and we're playing aboard game or something and

(33:45):
there's room for a fourth playerand there's not a fourth player
now because mom or daddy's notthere.
They definitely feel that.
But on the positive side, youknow, I think we're doing a lot
of new things.
I feel like I have more room tojust express myself as a dad.

(34:07):
I think in the past year and ahalf, everything that I would do
I was just tiptoeing around hermoods, right, and whatever her
attitude was towards me, and soeverything I would do I'd just
be like double checking with herto see if everything was okay.
But now I don't have to do thatanymore and that's been really
freeing.
So this past week, the pastweek that they were with me, I

(34:33):
bought some camping supplies andI'm just kind of building a
cache of camping supplies to gocamping someday when the weather
gets warmer.
And you know she didn't want togo camping and I wanted to take
them to do that experience.
So this past week we actuallyset up a tent and slept in the
garage for a couple days.
It was raining here, and so wejust slept in the garage and we

(34:55):
had a blast.
I didn't sleep that great, butthey enjoyed it.
You know.
They wanted to play card gamesin the tent, they wanted to eat
dinner in the tent, all thissort of stuff.
That wouldn't have happened ifwe were still together.
I feel like I get to focus alot more on them.

(35:17):
Yeah, I do feel like myattention and my love somehow is
just more concentrated when I'mwith them, and then the times
when I'm without them I justhave some time to recharge too,
to kind of clean up the housethe way I like it.
You know, I almost feel likeit's a big improvement.

A big improvement in the connection
relative to when.

Mark (35:44):
Relative to the past year and a half.
Well even when we were together, when I, when we had the kids,
I would have the kids, but Iwould also.
I'd be harboring, I guess.
Yeah, I'd just be harboringthis unhappiness.
You know, it's easy to see thatin hindsight Now I'm like like,

(36:04):
oh yeah, the life that I wasliving before was not a happy
life in hindsight, this is kindof a strange question maybe, but
in hindsight, do you now, wouldyou now wish for the divorce to
have not happened?
yeah, I think I still would havewished for the divorce to have
not happened.

(36:24):
Yeah, I think I still wouldhave wished for the divorce to
have not happened.

Yeah.

Mark (36:26):
Yeah, I think had.
Maybe at some point, had shebroken up with the guy and said,
hey, let's do counselinginstead, let's work on this
marriage, I would have.
I would have gone through withthat, tried to keep things
together at least for some time.
There's also a story there too,right, if you find something

(36:47):
difficult and to come out theother side of that, right.
I would love to live that storytoo, but I don't think that
story is going to happen.
I don't even think I'd be opento it right now.

Are there things that would have been
helpful for you to hear at thestart of your process, knowing
what you know now?

Mark (37:10):
I think probably at least to the mediation and stuff.
Like if she lied to you aboutthe affair, then she's going to
lie to you about what she wantsto do with the plan and with the
finances and stuff In thecourse of the difficulties in
the marriage.
If someone had counseled meabout, if I had understood the

(37:33):
feeling of contempt that she washaving towards me, maybe I
would have initiated the divorce.
I don't know, that's probably astretch.
I probably would have tried tokeep it going for a while, but
you never know what else.
The thing you told me at thevery beginning and I still share

(37:53):
that with people today Imagineif your kids are someone you
love very much.
When they're older, they gothrough the exact same thing.
What would you want them to do?
What grace would you want themto show themselves?
So show yourself that samegrace.
I don't know why that's somind-blowing to me, but I think
it's really easy to get lost inthis guilt, through all this, in

(38:16):
your own troubles, and say, hey, I don't deserve this, or
you're just paying for yourinadequacies and saying that I
deserve this in a way.
I think another thing that washelpful one of the answers to
your questions is it helps me totake heart in the fact that you

(38:39):
did your best.
You did your best with what youdid with your marriage.
Yeah, I had the best intentions.
I tried to do things withintegrity.
I didn't lie to her.
I didn't have feelings ofcontempt towards her.
I tried to give her the benefitof the doubt and tried to do
the best for our kids.
And knowing that I think alsohelped me, and knowing that I

(39:02):
think also helped me, or doingthat in the past helped me be
where I am today.
Yeah, of course, everythingcould have gone better, right.

And if there are people listening to this or
really are at the very start ofthe process, what suggestions do
you have to them?
So let's assume these arepresumably divorcing dads, since
this is the focus right.
So these are people who alsohave their own kids and it's
just starting and they're kindof in days after the
announcement or the decision orthe realization.

Mark (39:38):
In the early days of the divorce, we were always just
staring down the barrel ofsomething.
You're just dreading the future.
You don't know what the futureis even going to look like.
You don't know what yourfriends are going to think when
they find out you're getting adivorce.
You don't know if your kids areever going to be happy after
that.
You don't know if you'll everbe happy again.

(40:05):
There's just so many things toworry about and wonder about and
be afraid of when you're facingthat.
But the only thing you canreally do is just put one foot
in front of the other and justdo your best.
And the next right thing For methat would just be like that for
me sometimes is forcing me toeat meals and to get up in the
morning and to just.
That would just be like that forme sometimes is forcing me to
eat meals and to get up in themorning and to just.

(40:26):
It would just be like to theextent of like, hey, you just
clean this corner of the house,just pick up these few things,
just make yourself, do this nextthing and worry about the other
stuff another day or as theycome in and worry about the
other stuff another day or asthey come in.
But you can't let yourself getparalyzed by it, by all the

(40:51):
things that, all the futurethoughts that you might have or
what might be or what won't beanymore.
Just kind of put one foot infront of the other and do that.
Just take that first step andthose next right things will be
a lot of great things and a lotof them will be for yourself.
Like do healthy, eat, healthyexercise, seek out support in

(41:15):
your friends and family, becausethey're there for you.

Do you have suggestions or thoughts to share
about how to seek support,especially if somebody's feeling
just generally eitherdisconnected or embarrassed
about talking about it?

Mark (41:30):
yeah, I think one of the things for me or a tool that was
helpful and is helpful.
Still, I just have this longemail.
It's written out so like ifthere's someone I just want to
tell about the divorce.
I don't want to have to relivethis story.
So I just have this copy-pasteemail that I sent to them that

(41:52):
just says hey, this is whathappened, right, especially if
we're going to have to meet up,and I just don't want to have to
start this from the beginning.
And so I just like I sent it toa bunch of close friends that
we had, so like when I went tothis birthday party, it wouldn't
feel awkward.
That was really helpful.

(42:13):
And that email I say that I'mnot great asking for help.
So I can't answer the questionof hey, what can I do for you?
Just suggest something.
Just suggest like hey, let's gohang out here and I'll let you
know if I can make it.
I can't say things like hey,can you cook me a meal or
something.
I'm just not good, it's not inmy nature.

(42:34):
So I think that in that messageI kind of spell it like this is
how you can help me, or this iswhat works for me.
That was one tool that helped alot.
It was very useful.
That was one tool that helped alot.
It was very useful.
Another is just like before thatthere were some people that I
just had to break the news to inthe beginning and I don't have

(42:56):
any good advice for that when Iwas breaking the news to my
parents or my sister or some ofmy close friends.
It was just dealing with a lotof their anger and their
processing like through the fivestages of grief.
You know especially a lot oftheir anger and their processing
like through the five stages ofgrief.
You know especially a lot ofthe anger and they're
experiencing a lot of that anger.

(43:16):
So I'd almost sometimes findmyself defending her and I
didn't want to have to do that,especially with my parents.
They were the angriest of alltowards her parents.
They were the angriest of alltowards her and I always felt
myself kind of having to defendher.
The bargaining phase is like alot of like what was she
thinking?
Or we kind of arrived at theanswer of was it impossible?

(43:40):
It was just virtuallyimpossible to know what she was
thinking and then so just stoptrying to do that.
That's a helpful tip too right.
I don't know if this willpertain to all dads or all
people who are facing divorce,but to people who are maybe
survivors of infidelity,especially that because that's

(44:02):
the context that I have rightthe advice of not knowing or
just not being able tounderstand what the other person
was thinking, not being able toread their minds it's very
helpful in the early daysespecially.

Do not try and actually understand the
other person.
Just accept that this is howthey are right now, but not try
to make sense of it.

Mark (44:26):
Exactly To this day.
It still applies.
It's like really helpful advice, probably for the remainder of
your time on Earth.
Like just last week, I'm goingto be coaching third and fourth
grade boys basketball, so Isigned up to do that.
And then she emailed me sayingoh, have you found an assistant

(44:50):
coach yet?
I'd like to try doing that.
And I was like are you serious?
Like for this team, the sameteam that I'm head coaching,
like the first time?
Clearly, like we have adifferent understanding of what
went down.
Like I was just mind blown howwould she possibly think this is

(45:11):
a good idea?
But then I immediately shutthat down and it's not a
question I will ever be able toanswer.
So let's just do the next rightthing for myself and just say,
no, it's just not a good idea.
I still need to do that, but Iwill do that.

We skipped over this a little bit before.
Can you talk about how thedynamic between the two of you
has changed over the past fewmonths since the separation?
I'm thinking specifically abouthow much you would meet
physically.

Mark (45:47):
Yeah, the divorce coach, I talked about it.
You know there's been otheradvice too for other people on
other professionals.
It's a long time.
A week is a long time for thekids to be away from the other
parents because our our weekschedule, our schedule is one
weekend at a time, sunday tosunday.
You know these people have beentelling us a week's a little

(46:08):
bit long to be away and so Iknow you do video chats and
stuff, and it was, it probablystill is, especially for the
younger kid.
So we agreed to have dinnerstogether on Wednesdays, at least
initially In the early days.
It was the other parent wouldcome over to the custodial

(46:31):
parents for dinner.
So the first week I actuallyhad to go to her place.
She wouldn't cook for me, I hadto bring my own dinner and then
play some board games with themand spend some time with them.
It was during the summer then,so they didn't have homework or
anything, and then I would dothat and then go home and then

(46:52):
she would do the same thing.
She would come over, I wouldmake something for her, though
Sometimes she would bring herown food or whatever, but then
she'd play with them and thenleave it just I got increasingly
uncomfortable with thatarrangement.
I didn't like having her over tomy place.
I just felt like she wasscoping it out, seeing.
I don't think she's everadmitted that, but it was just

(47:16):
my feeling.
I felt like she was like seeinghow I was doing after the
divorce or finding some way tojust say, hey, you're not a good
dad or whatever.
I don't know.
I think you think all kinds ofthings when you're by yourself
or you're upset with somebody.
Anyway, it just wasn't a goodthing.

(47:38):
So we eventually decided thatthe other parent would just kind
of pick them up after school,have dinner with them on their
own on those Wednesdays, and infact we should have just done it
from the beginning, right, thathelped a lot because then we

(47:59):
didn't have to contact with eachother, because my interactions
with her since the divorce.

I just don't like being in her presence and I
remember we talked about itquite a bit at the time that you
were unhappy with her being atyour place and she would sort of
linger.

Mark (48:14):
Oh yeah, she would say way too long.
I remember that because wedidn't set up boundaries either,
like with a certain stop, andso she would just linger until
basically bedtime with the kidsand it was just so awkward for
me and I'm just so glad we resetthat boundary.

(48:35):
It's just dinner from 5 to 7.
And then we have the kid backto the other parent by 7.
Because that's when they haveto start washing up and getting
ready.
I just never would linger, Iwould leave promptly at 7 or
7.30.
I just didn't like being at herplace either.
So maybe this question thatyou're asking, which kind of

(49:01):
connects with the previousnotion, which was of her
perception of our dynamic, whichis different from my perception
of our dynamic, which isdifferent from my perception of
our dynamic like she would justlinger and she probably just
didn't have any feelings, ormaybe she didn't have as many
feelings as disgust with me as Idid with her yeah, it's clearly

(49:25):
.

I mean it's clearly two different people
having two different stories,living through two different
stories, adjacent in space.

Mark (49:35):
I should probably also mention this for the recording,
because she actually lives twoblocks away.
She found a condo that's twoblocks away from here.
It's convenient for the kidsbecause I can just bring them
over, or I can just go get themor she can bring them over.
But really it's convenient forthe kids because I can just
bring them over, I can just goget them or she can bring them
over.
But it's really it's too close.
I haven't ran into her in anycontext yet, but even just

(49:58):
knowing that she's like thatclose, it's not the most
comfortable thought but for youyou would prefer that she live
farther away, that there be morepsychic separation.

Yeah, yeah, all in all, how do you feel?
Like you did through theprocess, do you feel good about
yourself, bad about yourself,proud of yourself, embarrassed?

Mark (50:25):
Yes, can I just say yes, I think, all things considered,
I'm doing pretty well.
Of course I wouldn't wish thisexperience on anybody.
You know it just sucks.
You know, being cheated onhaving to watch your kids
process their parents goingthrough a divorce, the financial

(50:46):
part of it all it's just notgreat.
I think we got off easy basedoff hearing what my or at least
one of my friends shared aboutwhat her friend had gone through
.
But I think I did okay.
Going through this, yeah,absolutely embarrassed.

(51:08):
I would say that too.
I wish that I didn't have to gothrough the divorce and that I
would have had a good story totell about us, a successful
story in a marriage.
And it's still awkward.
I mean, I have that emailwritten out to people, but it's

(51:29):
still hard to send that out topeople and to share that news
with people and to process theiranger with them.
I remember early on when I feltthis feeling of shame of having
not lived that ideal life orthat ideal family life.
I'm kind of a bit over that,though I don't feel like my

(51:54):
sense of shame comes from thatso much anymore, having not
lived up to some random personsor some idea that I have that
some random person thinks is anideal marriage.
I don't think that's thereanymore.
I think I've just acclimated tothe idea.

Are there things you feel good about?
Are there things that you wouldpat yourself on the back or pat
somebody else on the back if itweren't you?

Mark (52:22):
I think I'm generally happier these days than in the
past, at least in the past yearor so.
So that's good.
I would rather be that than Idon't know pat myself on the
back about I don't know.
I think that my kids and I'vegrown closer.
We have been close and I thinkwe've grown closer and developed

(52:48):
a deeper relationship in someway.
For one thing, you know, I taketheir presence a lot less for
granted, because they're hereand we are navigating a really
hard thing together and I thinkthat will build up their
character somehow, or I know itwill.

(53:11):
I also look at the communityaround me.
Like I was saying, my group atchurch and our friendships have
gotten deeper too.
A bunch of guys might gettogether and talk about cars all
the time or whatever, and youfeel like you're still pretty
good friends, but all you do istalk about cars or sports.
It's usually sports, right, butthen throughout all this I had

(53:37):
an opportunity to come throughthis hardship and our
friendships have grown becauseof it and I'm glad for that.
I wish I didn't take a divorcefor that, but I'm glad that it's
deeper and the friendship isdeeper and we're better friends
now because of it.

I think there are quite a few things that you
did really well to take care ofyourself and of your kids and,
to an extent, of your ex.
Although I understand your goalis not to take care of her,
your goal is to act withintegrity.
I think you've been extremelymindful of acting with integrity
, even at times when it was hardand tempting not to.
I think you've been extremelymindful of making sure that you

(54:22):
stay connected with the kids,resulting in a stronger
connection with the kids, right,but you know a lot of people
sort of fling up their hands andwalk away, or back away at
least, and you did nothing ofthe sort.
I think multiple times you'vebeen really effectively
assertive with your ex aboutthings that were uncomfortable

(54:44):
for you, like the weekly dinnersand changing the format for
that right, that was all you.

Mark (54:53):
Changing the format was one thing, but I don't know if I
have ever been good aboutexplaining to her why I also
don't feel like I owe her that.

Yeah, no, you took care of yourself and
probably threw that up your kids, right, because they can feel
the tension, and you did a goodjob standing up for yourself and
likewise, you know, when shecame in through the garage and
you asked for your keys back.
These are not trivial things,right?
These are interactions that areuncomfortable and require some

(55:27):
navigation, and you did thosethings.
And then I think you did afantastic job reaching out for
support, activating your network, writing that email and using
it, despite the hesitation ofclicking send.
You know you reduced thediscomfort to clicking send
instead of writing it all outand kind of reinjuring yourself

(55:47):
in the process every time, downto telling your friends what
would be helpful for you.
That's a very high level ofskill, I think, in arranging
support for yourself, ofactivating your support network.
I think that's reallyremarkable.

Mark (56:08):
Similarly, when you took yourself on the trip you've been
wanting to go to for a while.
Yeah, that was great.
The trip, by the way, more thanit just being give yourself
permission to do something, justthe act of putting myself in a
different context, in anothercountry, helped me get away from
that idea of like being the guywho's getting a divorce.

(56:30):
You know which?
I've been living in thiscontext for a long time because
every day I wake up and I'm like, oh yeah, I'm getting a divorce
.
But when I was there I would belike, wow, I'm the guy who's
traveling right now.
I'm, I'm not getting a divorce.
No one needs to know that,right?
Yeah?

there was kind of kind of an inflection
point right, and my sense isthat it wasn't just a social
thing, it wasn't just about whoknows what about you when you go
through your day.
It's also.
It's not the first thing onyour mind.
First thing on your mind iswhat kind of crazy breakfast am
I gonna have today?
As opposed to oh wow, I'mgetting a divorce and how am I

(57:08):
going to figure out property,and that, I think, proved to be
super helpful in a way that youdidn't anticipate.
Right.
You just took yourself on atrip to be good to yourself.
Then, it turns out, it's beensuch a boon to have a different
context to be in and to kind ofswitch your primary identity for
a little bit, but it hadpositive effects later on.

Mark (57:29):
Add that to the list of things a divorced dad should do
in the beginning.
For sure, it was just sohelpful from a rest perspective.
It's funny because when youhave kids and you go on
vacations, they're not reallyvacations or trips because you
don't come back feelingrefreshed, right.

(57:50):
You just start tired fromhaving to change diapers or
whatever or manage their youknow tablets or whatever.
But that trip was so refreshingand restorative for me.

Just escaping the context, and did you take
me Just escaping the context?
And did you take it in terms ofthe timeline?
Did you take it in the middleof discussions, after everything
was settled already, beforeeverything was even being
discussed?
Where was it in the timeline ofthe divorce?

Mark (58:21):
I was planning it during the divorce proceedings, but the
trip happened to take placeafter the mediation was over
yeah, so there was some.

There was a good deal of certainty at that
point, just a lot of emotionalturmoil.

Mark (58:35):
Yes, dust was still in the air most of it was the
emotional turmoil absolutelywell.

I think there were a lot of things you did
really well to take care ofyourself in the process and your
kids.

Mark (58:47):
Thank you.
I think a lot of that wasbecause of the support network,
right, the email thing was anidea of a friend, the trip was
the idea of my esteemedtherapist, just a lot of things.
It's not like these things comewith an instruction manual, but

(59:07):
surrounding yourself withpeople who know what may be
helpful for you or who have beenthere before, it makes all the
difference.

You may have beat me to the punch here, but I
was going to ask if you haveany last words for now to share
with people who may be listeningand really like at the very
thick of it, at the very startlistening and really like at the
very thick of it, at the verystart.

Mark (59:32):
I think the support network thing is huge,
especially at the beginning,while you're being told that
you're going through a divorceor I guess anything where your
life is falling apart, like yougo to dark places and there's a
you know tell you a lot of lies.
By surrounding yourself withthe support network and with
people who've been there before,you need those people to speak

(59:53):
truth into your life, tell youand remind you who you are and
just give you practical advice Ithink that's an incredibly
important point, but we'll seethe darkest and worst in
ourselves and in our futures.

Eran Magen, Ph.D. (01:00:12):
A lot of people despair and reach really
horrible places, and this is agood time to be in contact with
people who know us well and canremind us who we are, like you
said, and help us get throughthat extremely dark, extremely
scary period.

(01:00:33):
Okay, good, this was a verycomplete summary, thank you.
Were there also current thingsyou wanted to talk about?

Mark (01:00:45):
there's just that basketball thing.
Yeah, that's strange.
I know I'm just gonna say no,it's not like it's a big deal,
but I was like what universe areyou living in?
It's a left fielder yeah, yeahour team.
Usually we have an assistantcoach for the team and I was an
assistant coach last year andhad a great time.

(01:01:07):
And it was also helpful because, like, I'm not going to be
there for myself and my childrenfor the last game of the season
because we have a vacationplanned, so I'm going out in
March.
So I emailed out all theparents just saying, hey, we
need an assistant coach becauseI'm not going to be here the

(01:01:27):
last week, just saying, hey, weneed an assistant coach because
I'm not going to be here thelast week.
And so I mean, if I were toventure to guess, I think she
was probably thinking oh yeah,mark had such a great time as
assistant coach last year.
You know he had such a greattime.
I don't know much aboutbasketball, but it sounds like a
lot of fun.
So I think I want to just tryit out.

(01:01:56):
Something along those lines shehad actually talked about with
my older kid, I mean even beforetalking about it with me.
And so you know, really you'resupposed to use your kid as kind
of messengers.
So it kind of felt like thatwas kind of a gap or breach in
that guideline or that rule.
Maybe she just didn't feel likeit was.
So I had to then clear with mykid and say, hey, are you okay

(01:02:20):
if I say no to mom, because I'mjust not comfortable with her
being my assistant coach?
He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine.
I was like you didn't have yourheart set on her being your
assistant coach, right?
And he's like, oh, no, and soit was fine.
I kind of thought maybe there'dbe an inkling of it being okay.

(01:02:40):
Maybe it can work if she's theassistant coach, at least I'll
have someone to sub for me in.
That last week, right.
But then this week we also hadthe children's Christmas
programs at school, like thelittle musical performance, and

(01:03:00):
so we both went and I justreally don't like being in the
same room with her.
So then I was like, oh, this isdefinitely not going to work if
we coach basketball together.
We're just not going to work.

This is one being in the same room too,
right?
I mean you need to communicateand coordinate and coach the
same team.

Mark (01:03:24):
This is the first year that the hoop is at 10 feet, so
kids are just kind of hoistingit up there and so we're not
really running any offensedefense things.
But last year was fun, you know, me and the coach.
At first it turned out us beinglike just oh yeah, let's just
get them to try to hoist it upthere.
But then by the end we wereable to do three basic screens

(01:03:45):
and it was really fun to watch,you know, and we did a little
record, which was great.
Yeah, I think I just likebasketball because it just has a
lot of life applications to it.
It's about resilience andpersonal responsibility, having
a short memory when it comes tomistakes, like.

(01:04:06):
I remember last year one of thekids would sulk after he missed
a shot and go off the deep endand I'd be like just put your
head down and I had to just yellat him.
So much about that Like.
And then by the end he was likeoh, coach, mark is my favorite
teacher and I'm like I'm noteven your teacher, but it's a
really rewarding experience.

Yeah, a really rewarding experience.
Yeah, sounds like maybe betterseparate for those.

Mark (01:04:31):
Oh yeah, there's no way it would have worked.

Okay, well, do you think?
Break for now.

Mark (01:04:39):
Yeah, yeah.

Great.

Mark (01:04:43):
Okay, I will see you next time and I'll let you know how
my first basketball practicewent.
Yeah, maybe we'll talk abouthow to meet strangers online
safe strangers yeah, yeah,that's good.

Thank you very much.
I think today was reallyhelpful.
I think it'll be helpful forpeople to hear.
I hope it was helpful for youto kind of run through the the
whole thing too and kind of seethe process it was helpful for
you to kind of run through thewhole thing too and kind of see
the process.

Mark (01:05:10):
It was helpful for me.
It wasn't traumatic or anythinglike that.
I think it was.
It's almost like pedestrian forme now just talking about it,
which is great.

Yeah, there's kind of a desensitization that
happens over time, which isimportant too, right.
It just becomes a thing thathappened.
I mean, there's still weight toit, obviously, but less and
less the more we talk about itand turn it into a thing that
can be discussed.

Mark (01:05:33):
Maybe someday it'll be a thing that's so desensitized
that where we could coach abasketball team together.
I don't know.
I mean, does it ever get tothat point?
I don't know.

You know, honestly, that's not where I
thought you're going to finishthe sentence.
I thought maybe one day it'llget so desensitized that I'll
just feel okay when talkingabout it, but I didn't think
you're going to take it tocoaching together.
It could, right.
Some people interact and areokay with it and some people
don't, and I think it reallydepends on the people and the
history.

Mark (01:06:13):
I hope someday we'll get to the point where we can
friendly again, but I don'tthink we'll ever get there as
long as that guy is in thepicture.
I'm just not comfortable withhim being there and being with
my kids.
Yeah, we'll see.

Okay, good, thank you very much.

Mark (01:06:18):
Thanks, Eran, bye.

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