To Protect My Kids, There are Certain Feelings I Must Not Feel

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eran Magen, PhD (00:00):
Nearly a year after the divorce, Mark is
planning a two-week trip withhis kids and enjoying his
ability to share more of hisculture of origin with his kids
than when he was married.
Mark continues to exploredating and finds that his
anxiety around dating diminishesas his goal shifts from wanting
to be liked to checking if theconnection feels like a good
match.
While much of Mark's life feelsgood, Mark is becoming

(00:23):
increasingly aware of the angerhe feels toward his ex and her
affair partner.
We discuss Mark's convictionthat, in order to protect his
kids, it's important for him toavoid feeling too negatively
about their mother.
We also consider different waysMark can reduce the intense
reactivity he feels when hecomes into contact with his ex's
affair partner.
I hope this conversation ishelpful for you.

Mark (00:45):
Hey, good, afternoon Aaron .

How's it going?

Mark (00:48):
It's going well, much better than last time, I think.

Oh good, I'm glad to hear.

Mark (00:54):
Let's see.
I went to Reno.
My sister got married.

Yeah, congratulations.

Mark (00:59):
Yeah, got the kids all dressed up.

I remember the little jackets.

Mark (01:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, got the kids all dressed up, I remember
the little jackets, yeah yeah,yeah, I'll wear them once and
that'll be it, and then they'llgrow out of them.
I did end up firing off thatemail to her, Probably just a
little bit reworded, but, yeah,suggesting a few options for
separating out birthday partiesetc, etc.
No response yet, but it's kindof par for the course, though

(01:26):
for her, like she doesn't likehaving, she's not like
confrontational right.
Yeah.
And so it's pretty much asexpected, you know.

How do you feel having sent it?

Mark (01:41):
I don't really know or feel strongly either way about
having sent it.
I think it's just fine to getit off my chest and just tell
her like, hey, this is what youdid, right?
I feel like she may not even beaware, like what she did was
wrong, or wrong to me at least.
She may just not have anyconcern for my feelings, or so,

(02:08):
yeah, that was at least the goal, right, as we talked about last
time, the goal was not to makeher feel remorseful or whatever,
like she already cheated on me,right?
So that's already happened.
So this isn't to get her tofeel, oh, what I did was wrong
and that I should apologize forit.
Yeah, and I agree that that'sactually freeing.

Okay, so not looking for an apology, like you
said, but just you feel betterjust having at least voiced your
disagreement here and voicedyour grievance, yeah.

Mark (02:42):
Not looking for an apology , but like I don't want to be a
doormat either, right, so yeahokay, and I guess in a way it's
almost like your responsedoesn't matter.

Well, it might matter, I guess.
If you are able to coordinatesomething that you know will
lead to a more predictably calmlife for you, that would be nice
.
Yeah.
Okay, what else?

Mark (03:05):
All that stuff I said about dating Like I'm not sure,
Like somebody reached out to meand then now I have a date
tomorrow.

That's great.
What part are you not sureabout?

Mark (03:17):
Well, originally I was like you know, I don't feel like
I really have the capacityright now to make space for
another person to feelresponsible or not responsible,
but feel like to make space foranother person's feelings.
You know, yeah and.
But then, like this personreached out to me which is kind

(03:37):
of rare on the dating apps,right, and she seemed nice.
She kind of hit it off throughtext and so so we're going to
meet up on Saturday and see howit goes.

That's great.
So it sounds like you're doinga little bit less life planning
and a little more following whatseems to be enjoyable, yeah,
and just kind of see whathappens.
See what happens, yeah, I hopeit's fun.

Mark (03:58):
I hope it's fun too.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Like with this person.
I don't feel as much of a like,a strong desire to be liked.
I just want to see how it goes,you know.

Yeah, that's a huge, huge difference in mindset
going in saying well, maybe I'mprojecting here, but it sounds
like less coming in for a jobinterview and more, maybe saying
we're both interviewing eachother, or maybe just focusing on
the fact that you'reinterviewing this other person.

Mark (04:27):
Yeah, yeah, I hope it's a healthy thing to do.
I'm not exactly well-versed inthis kind of stuff, you know, so
it'll just be an experiment.

Well, it sounds a little more grounded right, a
little bit less of a need toplease others and worrying about
what they'll think about you,and just being focused on what
you're interested in and whatwould be nice for you and of
course, it would need to bemutual for anything to happen,
right, but not coming in worriedabout are you good enough, are

(04:58):
you going to be good enough?
But coming in wondering if thisis something that's going to be
appealing to you.
Sounds healthy.

Mark (05:04):
But coming in wondering if this is something that's going
to be appealing to you.
It sounds healthy.
I think so, and that is a thingfor me.
I think when I'm in times ofweakness or insecurity or
whatever, I tend to gravitatetowards people pleasing
tendencies.
You know, I don't know.
I don't feel like that thistime, and I also really don't
know why.

Yeah, I'm curious to hear how it goes.

Mark (05:25):
Yeah, there was one person prior where I kind of called it
off and they were kind of hadmaybe a little overly attached
and I was just a littleuncomfortable with how forward
they were being.
But I still gave it two orthree dates just because I was
like, oh, maybe I'll come aroundor something.
But I think there was somepeople pleasing there too, not

(05:46):
wanting this person to be sad oranything and also being myself
just a little bit uncomfortablehaving that conversation.

But eventually we had that conversation At work
.

Mark (06:01):
Are you responsible for hiring and firing?
Yeah, for some reason, workmarkis okay with that.
Workmark is fine having thoseconversations Earlier this year.
Three months ago, I had to letsomeone go and that was a
difficult conversation and Isaid, no, it's fine, I can deal

(06:22):
with it, and we had a reallygood talk and the person shook
my hand afterwards and I thinkthat was okay.
That went okay.

I'm curious about the difference, not just
in how you let the other persongo right Whether it's at work or
a date but the different kindof need that it sounds like you
have to please the other person,or how it seems like at work
you don't have such a hard timesaying no, we should not be

(06:56):
together in this case workingtogether yeah whereas it sounds
harder and like it was harder ina dating context I think.

Mark (07:04):
So I'm just spitballing here.
I may not know myself that well, but maybe it's just due to
familiarity with the situation,like I've been a people leader
at work for six years now, so soI have a lot of experience with
that myself.
Right In the early days, right,I was very much people-pleasing

(07:28):
and you know I was great withmy role and things like that.
And I think back then I wouldnot have been comfortable having
those serious, intentionalconversations about people's
roles being let go or layingpeople off right, and I'm not
comfortable with it now either.
It's not like a good thing todo.

(07:48):
But I feel like I can tellsomeone hey, you're not
performing as well as we needyou to be performing.
I can give that honest, candidfeedback without feeling the
fear that they won't like me.
In the early days I would havedefinitely had those tendencies

(08:10):
which I.
That's why I feel like it's aweakness of mine, like with the
dating thing.
It's also like a new thing forme, right.
So I think I just fall into thewhole people pleasing tendency
thing.

And at work.
If you fire someone, you sayyou're no longer worried about
whether or not they will likeyou after that conversation.

Mark (08:31):
It's not the overarching driver of my words.
It's more important for me toget on the same page as to why
we need to do this, what thebusiness needs are and why, and
maybe why what they're doing isincompatible with what I think I
feel like this is corporatespeak I'm doing here, but I

(08:53):
think, really, like with theperson we let go, it was just
like our company wasn't a goodfit for them.
It wasn't just like theyweren't a good fit for us.
They were a talented person andthey were when we hired him and
they were when we let them goright.
It just wasn't a fit.
It was a fit thing, you know,and so it's the same way.

(09:13):
The person who I went on thatcouple of dates with, who I had
to break it off with, she was agreat person.
She worked with underprivilegedkids and stuff like that and
very sensitive.
It was just.
I think it might have been abad stage for me where I felt
that they were just being tooforward or a place that I wasn't

(09:37):
ready to be in yet, justbecause of, maybe, the stressful
situation that I was and I justwasn't aware of it.

I think I was, and I just wasn't aware of it.
I think so maybe we should bechecking in with you once you've
had a lot of theseconversations under your belt
and see if, at that point,you're less oriented toward
pleasing the other person.

Mark (09:52):
Yeah, I see.

Or not, or maybe you won't need to have a
lot of these conversations.
That would be even nicer.

Mark (09:58):
Yeah, maybe we'll find someone and I'll just have a
good time going forward.
Huh, I'm also not like 100%sure of what I want and I don't
want to be like future castingin terms of what I want in a
relationship and I don't reallywant a second mom for the kids,
right, and I'm not sure if Iwant to get married again Again.

(10:20):
That's like so far down theline, yeah.

And I think I mean you're.
You're holding this nicebalance between having a general
sense of what you're lookingfor and what you're not looking
for, but making sure to keep itvague and in the background,
while in the meantime you'rejust checking to see if things
feel nice, like if this isimmediately contributing to or
detracting from the quality ofyour life quality of your life?

Mark (10:44):
Yeah, but I don't want to come up to this other person
like being all wishy-washy aboutmy goals in life and
potentially like leading them onor something, because like, if
they want something clearly andI'm not quite there on the same
page, then I'd feel bad aboutthat.

Yeah, I mean that sounds a little bit like
trying to please them, in thatyou want to have goals if they
have goals and you want to havedirections if they have
direction.
That's a good point.
And so maybe there's a broadercategory of people that come in
with clear goals and people thatcome in without clear goals,
and those are both legitimateways of being, and maybe a match
needs to be, also in terms ofwhether or not it's important to

(11:18):
you that I have goals that aresimilar or goals at all.
Yeah.
But that's something they candecide for themselves, right?
Yeah, it is, that's, a goodpoint, and sometimes our goals
change based on who we're withright yeah, yeah, it's just like
so complicated, like what isthe protocol for this stuff?

Mark (11:36):
you know?

protocol for what, for how, to date?

Mark (11:39):
yeah, like for dating.
Sure, it's so funny, like Idon't know.
It's just kind of such aguessing game when you're
talking to someone on these apps.
Right?
Is it too soon if I suggestmeeting up?
Or some people want to meet upright away, some people want to
chat all the time.

Well, I'm definitely not a dating expert.
I would say that what I thinkI've discovered is that being
explicit and above board oftenworks out well for everybody.
So asking questions to check inabout where the other person is
and then being clear aboutwhere I am is a good idea, and
when I don't do it, it turns outto be a bad idea, because then

(12:17):
misunderstandings develop likehonest misunderstandings.
And then, of course, the otherside of it is that it could be
very annoying if somebody'salways asking you before
actually suggesting somethingyeah so there's some kind of a
balance to strike there.
At the same time, you know, youand I are texting and it's nice,
and I say, hey, this is reallyfun, I'm really enjoying talking

(12:38):
with you.
Would you like to meet sometime?
And keep going.
So what's my concern aboutasking this?
Is it that you would say, oh myGod, you asked this way too
soon, this is awful, goodbye.
And then the equivalent of aphone hang up, unmatch, I guess.
Like if that's the case and ifthat's how the person would
respond, like, is this the kindof, you know, tenuous connection

(13:00):
we're looking to nurture andgrow?
Or could there be an adult onthe other side that says this is
really fun, but it feels alittle too soon?
And then you keep going andthen maybe that changes how you
feel In the end.
I think the protocol is aboutmatch yeah.
So if something feels right toyou and you do it and it feels

(13:20):
totally wrong to the otherperson and this happens a few
times then this may not be agreat match.

Mark (13:23):
It's true, that's a good point, and I think my concern
originally was like what yousaid at the very beginning, but
like, oh, it's important to playthese things out, but it might
be kind of annoying to do thattoo frequently, but then it's
like what's too frequent.

Yeah, if nobody's ever taking the lead.
It's all kind of ongoingconversations, right?
You can never surprise somebodywith takeout that you picked
out for them if you always haveto ask them exactly where they
want the food from, exactly whatkind of food they want, how
many orders of which thing.
But it's fun figuring it out, Imean.
I think it's fun.
And it's fun because there isno protocol, because it's
different for different people.

(14:01):
Some people prefer to beconsulted a lot and some people
want the other person to takethe lead.
Sometimes, that's true.
Part of the few things that canbe enjoyable is kind of this
detective game with theunderstanding that if you make a
mistake it's recoverable.
Yeah.
And I do think that if an earlymistake is unrecoverable, then

(14:22):
this was probably not a greatmatch to begin with.
If I did something that seemedlike it could not possibly be
fatal, and it turns out to befit.
We are on such differentwavelengths.

Mark (14:32):
That makes sense switching gears a bit and coming up on
two weeks.
Well, after this saturday Iwon't see the kids for like two
weeks because they're going togo on vacation with their mom.
She has a sabbatical, I guess,yeah, so she'll have them for
two weeks and take them a bunchof places, and then I'll have

(14:53):
them for two weeks We'll gocamping in Lake Tahoe and stuff
like that.

How are you feeling about those upcoming two
weeks of not seeing them?

Mark (15:05):
I'll probably miss them a lot.
This past couple of weeks havebeen just a really good time
together, especially with thatlong weekend and stuff.

We spent a lot of time together and the talking
yeah are you going to betalking with them while they're
on vacation?

Mark (15:18):
we might do some video chatting here and there.

We'll see is it something that you would
schedule, or just kind of ad hocit?
Or just kind of ad hoc itusually just kind of ad hoc it.

Mark (15:28):
We've done like scheduled video chat before we did nightly
and or every other night whenthey were at the parents place.
But it just kind of gotannoying, you know.
It's just like I just want tokeep hearing her voice and like
the kids weren't really likekeen on that, so just like
sitting in front of an ipadtalking to a parent, so so we
kind of stopped that after alittle while so how did the ad

(15:50):
hocs work?

how is it different?

Mark (15:52):
we haven't had many ad hocs.
Actually I just tell them, likedo you know, if you want to
talk to me, I'll be there, I'llbe available, but we can
facetime or whatever.
But they never seem to want todo it, yeah.

Yeah, I think that's the trick, right as a kid
, you rarely want to dosomething other than what you're
doing, especially if whatyou're doing is even mildly
enjoyable.

Mark (16:12):
And I don't want to coerce them to do something that they
don't want to do.

You know, I think it's okay to schedule
times to talk and then also beokay with these conversations
being exactly two minutes long,right, where it's just a touch
point.
You just kind of see the face,hear the voice, maybe ask a
couple of questions.
If they're excited to tell yousomething, then they'll tell you
.
If they're excited to ask youabout something, then they'll
ask you, and if they're not,they'll, you know, say how the
day was and vacation is great.

(16:36):
You'll be like great, and thenwe'll talk on Wednesday.
But it at least creates a touchpoint.

Mark (16:41):
Yeah, I'll just try to arrange some scheduled times.
Obviously I'm looking forwardto my two weeks, of course.
Yeah.

What's on deck for your two?

Mark (16:51):
weeks.
Yeah, we're going camping overat Tahoe with some friends, so
we're going to go camping withmy sister and my parents and
then my side of the family yeah,camping for like two days and
then, you know, it's not toocrazy.
The only thing that we're alittle bit apprehensive about is
the drive, because it's a longdrive.
It's like 14-hour driving.

Not each way right.

Mark (17:15):
Just like total driving, yeah, you know back and forth
and around and everything, andso and there's all those stops
and stuff.
But it'll be fine, it'll be agreat time.
My kids have actually beengetting better at Thai, so and I
don't know if that would havehappened if we had not gotten
divorced.
It's just interesting.
So like I was born in Thailandand so I grew up speaking Thai.

(17:40):
So it's just so, I grew upspeaking that a lot and my ex
was born here.
Just so I grew up speaking thata lot and my ex was born here.
So it's very much like an AsianAmerican kid trying to fit in
with the culture and stuff here,and so it wasn't really
important to her to dotraditional Asian stuff or Thai
stuff or even speak Thai oraround the kids even and it's

(18:03):
not like it's super important tome too, but I do feel like it's
something.
It would be good for them toget in touch with their roots
and discover who they are andwhere I came from, you know, and
where their families came from.
They've been using Duolingo, sothat's awesome, so they're able
to communicate a bit more withmy parents, because my mom

(18:25):
doesn't speak a whole lot ofEnglish.
Wow, my parents have beenreally impressed with how much
they've been able to understand,and, as a result, they're kind
of growing closer together too,which is cool.
And I really enjoy seeing that.
Yeah, even my kids.
They're like we don't doDuolingo at my mom's house, but
I think Pete the younger onebrought it up.

(18:46):
He was like if we didn't getdivorced if you're guessing to
get divorced we probablywouldn't do this Duolingo.
So that was kind of cool.
That's kind of more like megetting more in touch with who I
am after the divorce, you know.
Another thing that happened wasI invited some friends to come
over and play mahjong, you know,and my friend had remarked and

(19:08):
I don't know why she said thisshe's like oh, it's funny how
you, mark, are the mostAmericanized of all of us and
yet you're the one like teachingyour kids mahjong languages and
stuff.
I'm like I'm not Americanized,right, like I just think to
myself it's just the past pieceof life that I've been in to
just kind of suppress a lot ofthat.

(19:28):
I didn't say that out loud atthe time.
It's just kind of a realizationI had later on, because the
person who told me that I meanshe is Thai-American too, but
she's born in Texas, you know,but her parents are very
culturally Thai, so I think it'sa priority for her just to be

(19:49):
in that culture, as it was forme too, you know.
So I don't know, that kind ofstruck me recently.

Yeah, I remember somebody telling me
about this I can't remember whoit was, and I think I mentioned
it to you.
You as well that one of thereally surprising silver linings
of separation like this ordivorce with kids is that each
parent gets to be themselves,sort of uncompromisingly, and
the kids get to be exposed tothese two different,

(20:17):
uncompromised people in a muchbroader range of experiences,
and this sounds like this is abenefit both for the kids and
for the parents.
Right, and in your case, you'refinding yourself reconnecting
with that culture.
They got pushed to thebackground a little bit and the
kids get to reconnect with itand even with your grandparents
as a result, with theirgrandparents as a result.

Mark (20:37):
That sounds lovely actually yeah yeah, like when I
was married, sometimes I wouldjust like, out of the blue, just
speak some phrases in Thai tomy wife and she would just kind
of look at me funny, like whyare you speaking Thai to me?
Then I just switched back toEnglish and was like sorry, but

(20:57):
really it was like this is who Iam.
This is just like I would liketo express some colloquialisms
in Thai, you know.

Yeah, the subtle ways, sometimes the
not-so-subtle ways that being ina relationship gets us to
highlight certain aspects of usright, our personality and our
culture, and to downplay others.

Mark (21:17):
Yeah.

And it suddenly pops back up when we're not in
that relationship.

Mark (21:20):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's all good things.

Yeah, some good things going on what do you
have scheduled for your twoweeks without the kids?

Mark (21:29):
well, I've been meaning to like and I might just do it
kind of an impromptu trip, kindof want to just do it
haphazardly because I don't wantto pay out the nose for a place
to stay, yeah, but I thinkthere's some apps that are like
last minute hotel deals andstuff like that.
So, yeah, maybe do that day, goto a hotel, hang out, see what
that's like and try that out.

(21:51):
Yeah, and I don't have a lot oftime off from work because I
have to use that time for my twoweeks sounds great.

How long will your impromptu trip be then?
Is it a weekend?

Mark (22:01):
yeah, probably just like a weekend.
Probably just take a, a Fridayoff or something, maybe have a
three-day weekend.
Otherwise it'll just be like alot of like going to the gym at
6 in the morning because Iusually can't with the kids, so
going to the gym at 6 if I wantto go to work, just being
productive at work, so I canhave those couple weeks off.

(22:22):
Yeah.

Good yeah, you're seeming in a much more
positive place than you werelast time we spoke.
Oh my gosh yeah even I can tellwhat do you think made the
difference?
Is it just the time passed?

Mark (22:36):
I think it's just the time passed, I don't know.
I haven't had to see thatperson again, so I do feel like
if I were to see them again I'dprobably be okay.
Like, really, I'm prettyremoved from it now.
You know, I'm just kind of likeyou know what they deserve each
other.
It's just like I don't evenwant to acknowledge this person.

(22:57):
You know it sounds kind of bad,but you know, kind of like the
things I said last time, right,like I don't even want to
acknowledge this person'spersonhood.
Almost it's like I try not tosay his name.

Yeah, it's easier not to think of him as a
person, yeah, when he doesn'thave a name, when, yeah, he
doesn't have even mannerisms orwhatnot.
Right, like he has a role here,like Like he's basically the
villain.
Yeah.

Mark (23:23):
Yeah, but I also try not to show it too much when the
kids mention him by name.
You know I don't want it tolike those feelings to rub off
on the kids.
Yeah.
No, no, on one hand it'sprobably not.
I don't have to be thisperson's friend, right?
Maybe not going out of my wayto acknowledge this person.

(23:44):
You know it's not a good thingeither, right, I say I probably
won't be bothered next time Isee him.
But but if I like, if I'madmitting that to myself, that I
don't want to acknowledge thisperson, isn't that betraying
that?
You know the original idea.
I'm not sure.

Because you're avoiding sort of even mental
contact with him by not, forexample, naming him.

Mark (24:11):
Sure.

Yeah, and so when you see yourself avoiding
mental contact, that makes youwonder if physical contact will
actually leave you indifferent.

Mark (24:18):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know, but like the time has made
things better, I guess.

Yeah, and what's clear so far is that more
time without seeing him isbetter than more time with
seeing him.
Yeah, yeah.
And I'll say this I mean on aspectrum where on one side
there's you being totally unableto handle the concept of his
existence and on the other sideof the spectrum is you being

(24:46):
completely comfortable with him.
No big deal, super zen, you'resomewhere in the middle, you're
not at any extreme, like theidea of him does not upset you.
Running into him repeatedly,unexpectedly, inappropriately,
is upsetting for you and thenyou eventually calm down from
that.
But that is quite, has beenquite disruptive for you or was

(25:07):
quite disruptive for you yeahbut his sort of existence in the
world, and even the kidstalking about him, doesn't send
you into tailspans.
So somewhere in the middlethere, okay.

Mark (25:18):
Yeah, I think you framed it in a less dramatic way like
me running into him unexpectedly.
Yes, that is disturbing to me,but I feel like that's normal.
I don't know.

Yeah, maybe there's nothing wrong with the
fact that it's disturbing.
I mean, maybe it's unpleasantfor you, but maybe that's not
something that needs to be fixed, especially yeah One thing I am
trying to limit my contact.

Mark (25:41):
Yeah, one thing I am trying to limit my contact.
We have a good family friendand they invited my older son to
join them this summer in a flagfootball league because they
played flag football last season.
but they were in differentleagues and they both had a lot
of fun, but the games are on.

(26:01):
Well, the games and practicesare on Fridays, you know.
So basically, long story short,since we alternate Fridays on
this 2-2-5 schedule, I told myfriend, who or used to be
friends with my ex, that we'rewell, we were all pretty close
prior to this.
I told my friend hey, like youknow, debra might be there for

(26:23):
like every other game, becausewe really hadn't considered that
before when they invited myolder son, because I'm kind of
inclined to say no, you know, Ineed a break from seeing her all
the time.
And then my friend was like ohyeah, I'd probably be okay with
it, although I'd tolerate, butmy husband would probably not be

(26:44):
okay with it, although I'dtolerate, but my husband would
probably not be okay with it atall.
So we just decided not to dothe flag football thing this
summer because I thinkultimately it was the right call
, just for everyone's well-beingand mental health.
I just feel bad for my olderson and his friend because it

(27:06):
kind of costs them this summerfun.

Yeah, that there's a little bit of a
zero-sum between what's fun forthem and what's fun for you, or
even what's hurtful for you andwhat's fun for them, and you
ultimately choosing to go withavoiding something that for you,
would be really disruptive,even at the cost of some fun for
your kid.

Mark (27:29):
Right, right, just need a break.

Yeah and I'm thinking back to what you were
saying about your reactionrunning into your ex's partner
and it sounded like you suddenlyrealized that maybe it's okay
to be upset seeing him and thatmade me wonder if maybe part of
what was hard for you was yourexpectation of yourself to not

(27:53):
be upset by seeing him.
There was some kind of pressurethat you were putting on
yourself to be okay yeah, that'strue.

Mark (28:02):
I think there is a battle between a few feelings, right.
One is, you know, this personwas morally bankrupt and should.
It means nothing to me, nothing.
But like they deserve eachother, right, just kind of write
them off as people.
I guess, you know, I guess it'snot the best way to put it, but

(28:24):
, yeah, like this person doesn'tdeserve my attention.
But on the other hand, it'slike this morally bankrupt
person is somebody who's in mykid's life half the time and
being upset about that.
And then also, no, this personwronged me.
You know, I don't think aboutthat part so much, but it's

(28:45):
there.
Like this person ruined mymarriage, and well, she ruined
my marriage, but this person hada hand in it, right, also like
cheated on his own spouse too.
So it's like a lot of push pullokay.

So I think in turn, you were saying I'm sort
of imagining you making marks inone of two columns right, where
, on the right, we have a columnthat says here's why I should
not have any reaction to seeinghim, and on the left, there's a
column that says here's why it'sokay for me to have reactions
seeing him.
Yeah, and so on the right, on,here's why I should not have any

(29:20):
reaction seeing him.
You're putting he's not worthme having a reaction.
Yeah, and completely separately, he's part of my kid's life and
so it's better for me to not bereactive to him, almost to
their benefit, so that theydon't feel like they have to
tread lightly around me whentalking about their own life, in

(29:41):
which he might appearoccasionally.
And so these are two reallydifferent arguments for why you
should not have a reaction tohim.
And then, on the why you shouldhave a reaction to him is well,
this person is, like you said,morally bankrupt, like this, is
basically a bad person, andshouldn't we all have negative

(30:01):
reactions to bad people?
And also, in your case, it'sobviously very personal.
This person participated indestroying something that was
very important, and so sometimesit sounds like you tell
yourself like, based on theseconsiderations, I should not
have a reaction, a big reactionto him.
And sometimes you say, well,it's reasonable that I have a

(30:22):
reaction to him.
Yeah, and I guess my take isthe should is probably causing
more discomfort than everythingelse.
I think that you, you have thereaction you have to him, or you
don't right.
It's just that once you tellyourself, well, I should be
reacting differently, with more,with less emotion, that's when
it gets really upsetting uh-huh,yeah, that makes sense.

Mark (30:45):
What do I do about that?

what do you do about the should?
just yeah the should doesn'talign with the actual right I
imagine going on a camping trip,let's say, because you're
preparing for this andinevitably some mosquito bites
happen and it's one thing forthem to itch and be irritating.
It's another for us to getupset about the fact that we got

(31:09):
bitten by a mosquito and to beupset about the fact that it's
itching, or maybe to be upsetabout the fact that now we're
less inclined to go camping inthe next two weeks while it's
still itching, because weremember how much it itches.
And getting upset withourselves for the mosquito bites
.
You know, I shouldn't havegotten bitten, it shouldn't be
itching so much.
It is itching right, and if wejust scratch and kind of move on

(31:32):
with our day, there's going tobe a lot less internal anguish.
So we compare that guy to amosquito and encounters with him
to the bites.
I think, whether or not we thinkwe should, we're going to have
some kind of reaction.
We're going to either careabout meeting some people or not
care, and we might think thatwe should care more or care less

(31:53):
or what, but we have thereactions that we have and and
giving ourselves the shouldsabout it is just going to make
life harder, right, as opposedto saying well, this is how it
is right now.
This is how I feel you.
If we take a really sidewaysmove here and look at what you
were saying before about dating,sometimes you feel like you
don't want to date.
Sometimes you feel like you dowant to date.

(32:13):
That's a place where I haven'tseen you do a lot of
self-judgment about it, right?
Sometimes you say, well, I justdon't feel like dating and I
think that's okay.
And sometimes you say, I don'tknow, now, maybe I do feel like
dating and that's okay.
It's a little confusing, butyou don't sound upset with
yourself about these things,right?
Your opinion changes.
Your reactions change, right.

Mark (32:29):
Okay.

And that seems so much easier.
Yeah, say, this is just how Ifeel right now.
Yeah, it's a bit different,though right, because there's
not like there's no sort ofopposing views here, because on
the one hand, the avenging angelin you says it's totally fine
to be really upset by and at andwith this guy right, wrong

(32:57):
behavior.
Let me say say differently likethis guy acted badly, he is a
bad actor.
I should be feeling stronglyand negatively about him as a
form of justice.
Yes.
And then there's another part ofyou that is not the avenging
angel, but rather the call itthe internal Zen master, who
says it would be just nice tonot feel so disrupted by

(33:17):
somebody else's presence who Idon't control.
Why should I be paying for thisperson's existence?
Yeah, I just want to be done sodisrupted by somebody else's
presence who I don't control.
Why should I be paying for thisperson's existence?
yeah, I just want to be donewith it, you know and I think
that you can work on eithergenerating more righteous anger
or on generating more donenesswith it.

(33:39):
These are things that you canwork on.
You can choose a path and youcan change your mind on which
path you want to choose at anytime too.
But you can choose a path andthere are things you can do to
progress along that path.
But in the meantime, you'regoing to have the reactions that
you have right, and being upsetwith yourself for having
reactions that are too much ortoo little just makes it even
less comfortable, as opposed tosaying these are the reactions I

(34:00):
have and I'd like to changethem in this direction.

Mark (34:04):
Yeah, okay, so I'll work on that.
I mean, I very much like tobecome or realize the latter
aspect of that.
Yeah, I just want to be donewith it, you know yeah.

Well, I don't know, Well, I don't know.

Mark (34:41):
And so when you say that it makes sense that it would be
right to be upset with him,right Because of who and what he
is and because of what he did.
Do you mean that it feels rightto do it, like if, by choice,
you would choose to react thisway, or this is a reason why it
makes sense to you that youreact this way, but you would
prefer not to?
I think the latter.
I mean it makes sense that Iwould react this way because of
the avenging angel thing, but Iwould prefer not to.

Yeah, this is something that you mentioned
last time, when we spoke also,and so do you want to talk now
about ideas for ways to eitherreduce reactivity or recover
faster, or something like that?
Yeah, yeah, definitely okay andso far have you found something
that works for you, either withreference to this particular
guy or just other things thatare upsetting for you, like what

(35:15):
do you do to reduce reactivityor to recover faster?

Mark (35:19):
um, not really and, to be honest, that is like the only
thing that's triggering thatreaction in me.
You know, people yell at eachother at work all the time and
people say mean things, you know, and we work with a partner
company and there's just verytwo different work cultures all

(35:40):
the time and they clash.
But none of that stuff do Itake personally, none of it.
And so people will call, like,our integrity into question,
things like that, and those arethings that are very triggering
to me, but I don't have a strongreaction.

So the only things in the world that
predictably elicit a strongnegative reaction from you are
your ex and her partner.

Mark (36:03):
Yeah, and the whole thing with the park incident.
It just felt like it was onpurpose and I was just being
bullied, right.
So I've always there's someaspect of me that feels like,
well, if she's just she's justdoing this on purpose and it's
best to not have a strongreaction.
You know, like we talked lastweek Like one of the reasons we

(36:25):
had for not sending that emailwas just like it's just I don't
know.

I'm detracting from the conversation here and
so I guess your answer to myquestion is you don't really
have approaches or techniques orhabits you bring to bear,
because nothing really upsetsyou very much so predictably,
except for your ex and orpartner literally, I can't think
of anything that has triggeredthat same level of feeling or

(36:52):
reaction within me.
Yeah, okay, so in the bigpicture, there are three
categories of things you can do.
One is avoid the irritant.
Another is find ways to reducethe reaction that you have to
the irritant.
Okay.
And the third is find ways torecover faster so you're not

(37:16):
walking around irritated forthat long, and there are a few
different things you can do ineach of these categories.
And there are a few differentthings you can do in each of
these categories In terms ofreducing the likelihood of

(37:47):
running into the irritant.
I think that's a category ofthings that you're well-versed
in and are doing as much as youcan't always control his
appearance to.
Yes, have more of a heads up,because it sounds like it's much
worse when you're unprepared.
Yes, and again, I'm kind ofspitballing here, but like, if
you tell your ex I never want tosee him ever, just don't do
this.
It sounds like you may see himever when you expect not to.
There's a different version ofa communication with her that
goes along the lines of I wantto know before I see him every

(38:11):
time, and maybe that can happenright, so at least you're
prepared internally.

Mark (38:18):
I thought about that and just and this isn't a a bully
formulated thought but I'mconcerned that if I say that,
that I'm opening up a door, forit to be that much more
frequently like, oh, he's okaywith me bringing him along as
long as I give him a heads up.
So I'm just gonna give him aheads up every time he does it,
so you can just come by and forevery pickup and drop off or

(38:42):
whatever, yeah, and I don't wantthat to happen.
In reality, I don't want to seehim ever, right, or as little
as possible, right.
Yeah, I don't know, with thewhole birthday party thing, this
was like less than a week afterI gave her that.
Like I told her we had to setthis boundary right and she

(39:02):
totally ignored that.

So like I have no reason to expect that she
wouldn't abuse that open dooryeah, because saying tell me
before you bring him alongsounds and could be interpreted
by her as an open door to bringhim along whenever.
Is there a combined message?
I want to see him zero times,but the times that he absolutely
has to be there, please tell me.

Mark (39:25):
Maybe I don't know.

It sounds like the kind of places where you
might run into him are limited,right, because pickup drop-off
usually happens through schoolat this point, except for
special occasions, right?
And then there's like jointevents basically.

Mark (39:40):
Yeah, the joint events are like the concern.
Yeah, yeah, like the birthdayparties, although I have this
proposal set up, so we'll seeyou know.
Yeah, the joint events.

And so for the ad hoc pickup, drop-off, in a
way it sounds like it's so rarethat maybe it's not even worth
doing a lot of planning around.
You know, in a pick-your-battlekind of of a situation, maybe
it's worth focusing on the jointevent.
Although even for the ad hocs Iwonder if you need to be
present, in a sense right like,is it enough?
Like how much contact do youneed?

(40:13):
And the thing that youdescribed, the time that you
described, I guess you justbasically saw him right sitting
in the car or something yeah,the first time yeah, like there
was was no interaction per se,he just existed.
The joint event is much moresignificant.
Right, you exist in proximity,you get kind of crowded out, you
end up talking with people youdon't want to talk with for a
long time and you lose out onall the good snacks, and so

(40:35):
those seem important to control.
So one protocol I can imagineis being very clear about which
events are joint and which arenot.
I imagine that's already takencare of fully, basically right,
like you know if you're going todo something together or
separately before it happens.

Mark (40:48):
Yeah, I mean, if there are any of those joint events, I
may just not go to them.

you know, yeah, so that's.
One option is to just not go.
Another option is to ask hervery explicitly whether or not
he's on a guest list to ask hervery explicitly whether or not
he's on a guest list yeah, is hecoming?
Yeah, and being very clear,saying basically, only one of us
can be there and you can decidehow exactly you want to portray

(41:14):
this.
You could say, look, you get tochoose Either he comes or I
come.
Or you might say I'm going tobe there and I'm asking that he
not be there because that would,whatever, make the event very
unpleasant for me.
If you intend to bring himagainst my wishes, I ask that
you tell me in advance so that Ican not come, something like

(41:34):
that.
It may seem like it gives heran option, but really it's the
same option she has right now,given that you've expressed your
preferences really clearly.
It just also adds a request tonotify you May or may not work.
So that's as far as reducingcontact those.
Then there's what to do in themoment.
Okay, I am going to tactfullypunt on this one.

(41:56):
I'll move to the next categoryand then come back, okay.

Mark (42:01):
I was hoping for more guidance on that part.

I think it's actually really relevant because
if you feel like you have goodways to recover quickly, the
contact is going to be lessupsetting.
Okay, okay.

Mark (42:12):
So let's just save it for later.
Yeah.

Okay.
So yeah, I'm not ignoringcompletely, I'm just saying
let's work on number three andcome back to number two.
So, in terms of recoveringfaster, what do you have right
now in your toolkit forrecovering after being upset?

Mark (42:26):
I guess what helped was calling my sister, but that also
makes her upset, yeah.
So I felt really bad aboutcalling her and like two weeks
ahead of her wedding and talkingto her about this, because she
really actually got upset.
She didn't get upset at me,she's like no, no, totally call
me.
You should never hold thisstuff back.
I would never want you to dothat.

(42:48):
But she was upset at her,understandably, yeah, um, okay,
so calling your sister yeah,like we've talked about it and
just have someone to listen wasgreat yeah.

Yeah, what else ?

Mark (43:03):
I don't know, maybe just distraction, I guess, yeah.
Yeah, like after the birthdayparty, one of the dads from our
old daycare friends invited meover to his place to just kind
of hang out afterwards, and theyhad been talking with my ex's
partner at the party, right, soI wasn't really able to catch up

(43:23):
with them and so so theyinvited me over for some drinks
and chat for a little bit, andthat was nice, but we didn't
really talk about that thing,right yeah we just kind of hung
out like, shared each other'spresence and it was good, I
think.
Yeah, I know, I got home and Iwas so angry about the whole
thing, but it was nice to bedistracted for a little bit,

(43:45):
just so I wasn't by myself, youknow.

Yeah, yeah, okay, so so far we have calling
your sister spending time withfriends.
Yeah, what else?

Mark (43:55):
Well, that's just, experientially, what worked
right.
There's probably other thingsthat might work, like just
exercise or drag myself out todo some exercise.
Yeah, it's normally pretty easyfor me to just, you know, just
schedule things like exercise,like pick up basketball, go to
the gym, stuff like that.

(44:15):
But to go outside and go for arun, that's something really
hard to do, right, but I'mtrying.
But I I can try yeah, even whenyou're upset.

Yeah, how about going to the gym?

Mark (44:27):
equally hard well, the gym I go to is like, it's not like,
oh, like you just register forthe class or whatever, like a
circuit training or whateverokay, it's a very organized kind
of thing, okay it's veryorganized, there's an open gym
thing, but it's not really, butit's not very practical.
Yeah, I think.

Great, okay, so , so, yeah.
So recovery I think has to dowith either processing actively
and getting support, ordistracting, or just a different
kind of distracting, doingsomething that actually feels
really good, like just basicallywashing good over the bad and
flushing the bad out.
Yeah, really good, like justbasically washing good over the

(45:07):
bad and flushing the bad out.
Yeah, I think talking to otherpeople is extremely helpful, and
having essentially a list inyour head of people you could
talk to and shamelessly callingone after the other to process,
process, process, because itgets better after each one, and
by the third, third, you're likewell, this is kind of
ridiculous.
Like I'm done Right, sure, andso to have more people on call,

(45:28):
basically, and and just allowingyourself to do that, just
saying listen, I mean, thisfeels kind of ridiculous, but
I'm I'm really upset.
Can I tell you about what justhappened?
Yeah.
Right, and and letting yourselftalk to multiple people about
this so that each of them talkswith you for however long you
talk 10, 20, 30, 40 minutes butyou get triple quadruple that

(45:51):
time once you're done talking toeverybody.
I think the active processingand the commiserating is really
helpful.
I think that community is superhelpful to feel like you are
with people who care about youand want what's best for you and
appreciate you and all of that.
But, like you said, it's it'salmost a pure distraction in a
sense.

(46:11):
You're still simmering underthe surface and as soon as
you're out of there you're backto being upset like it doesn't
really contain a lot ofprocessing in it yeah, that's
true just kind of covers it over.
In a way that's different from,I would say, intense physical
exercise, where it really letssomething out right.
And it seems like I mean I knowfor myself and it seems like

(46:32):
for other people that I'mtalking with as well we're less
upset by the end of it.
Something was processed.
And I will say that for mepersonally, a combination of
community with intense physicalexercise is like magic when I'm
upset.
So in my case, when I go tojujitsu and I'm careful I was
for a while Now I'm less becauseI'm less upset by everything

(46:54):
going on.
But I've kind of gone throughmost of it.
But at the beginning, the firstcouple of years for me, I was
very consistent about jiu-jitsu.
Every day, where it's community, people are happy to see me,
I'm happy to see them.
We're smiling, we're shakinghands, we're making a little bit
of small talk and then we'retrying to choke each other out
and it's very tiring physicallyyeah, and I just felt really

(47:17):
good by the time I was done andthen again chatting with people
more at the end, but it's thiscombination of community and
very intense physicality umworked very, very well, uh, in
that situation and I had itscheduled, like I said, like
every day, more or less right.
So that kind of whateverhappens, I know that I'm going
to end up there, whateverhappens on any given day.
Okay, another category ofthings that you you didn't

(47:40):
really mention, but maybe, if Itend to, of what you talked
about, is figuring out just whatmakes you feel really good and
doing that so intentionallyfeeling good.
So the simplest example of thisis like watching a standup
routine.
That is good.
Okay, I get that, just saying,yes, I'm upset and I'm just

(48:03):
going to go look at somethingthat's going to make my mood
better.
Problem with being upset?
I don't know if it's a problem,but one of the features of
being upset, and especiallyangry, is that when we're angry,
our mind kind of turns over andwe're in this place where we
know that we're right, we knowthat we're justified and we keep

(48:25):
finding more and more reasonsfor why we're right to be angry.
Yeah.
And it's a big deep hole that wedig very quickly because we're
very energized by being angryyeah, that's right.
So we get angrier and angrierfor a while, whereas if we are
able to switch our mind out ofthat stance, we can start
finding gaps.
Not all the world looks bad.

(48:45):
We can start finding the absurdin the situation, or just not
think about it, like we're justin a better mood, and suddenly
we remember that, oh, tomorrowthere's this thing that I want
to like.
Our mind naturally starts goingelsewhere because we're not so
stuck in the upsetting thinganymore, and so I wonder what,
for you, could be things thatknow pretty reliably, just put
you in a good mood, even ifyou're in kind of a bad mood.

Mark (49:07):
Yeah, I need to figure out what that is.
I mean, like, with a stand-upthing, for instance.
That's kind of the same effectas the friends thing.
It's just a distraction, right,and then I'll go right back to
being upset after that.
Yeah, right, and then I'll goright back to being upset after
that.
Yeah, I feel like I want to dosomething.

(49:27):
It would really occupy my mindin such a way that that would
reset something in me, you knowyeah like this past week and
getting out of town was reallyhelpful.
you know, like traveling to mysister's wedding.
I can't do this every time, Iget upset right, but like that
was really helpful.
You know, like traveling to mysister's wedding.
I can't do this every time, Iget upset Right, but like that
was really what I needed, youknow, just to change the context

(49:51):
of where I am and not be thedivorced person, right.

Yeah, sounds a lot like your trip that you took
, right when you said that wasone of the main benefits.

Mark (49:59):
Yeah, yeah, that was exactly the same thing Like
going away.
The same thing like going away,you know, like going away to
denmark was great.
That's exactly because it justfelt like I had my, my own
identity.
I can't keep doing that,obviously, but but that was like
a mindset shift which wasreally freeing.

Yeah so that sounds like a very worthwhile
exercise to figure out what'sanother way.

Mark (50:25):
Oh, to do this yeah, you know, what it could be is just
like making more friends.
So like, a lot of theconfidence that I currently have
are people who knew her, andthat's what like where a lot of
the commiseration comes in,because they're all so upset and
they share in the knowledge ofwhy I'm angry.

(50:46):
But yeah, it's also been reallygood to make friends who don't
know my ex, and maybe there'ssomething there where I feel
like when I'm that's reallyinteresting, yeah, yeah.

So the same thought of having a context in
which being a divorced dad isnot, like, a primary aspect of
your identity with this person.
Yeah.
Where they just know you as youand the fact of your divorce is
kind of in the background asopposed to it being a dominating
factor.

Mark (51:19):
Yeah, yeah, I think they could have a similar effect, you
know, yeah, but more economicalyeah, until we get really good
vr travel.

Maybe there is already really good vr travel I
don't know.
That's such an interestingpoint that you brought up and, I
think, such a wonderful pointthat you can change your context
not just by travel, but bychanging your social context in
a way.
That's great yeah okay, I wouldstill encourage you to think
about what are things that youcan do in the moment that

(51:49):
improve your mood oh, yeah, okay, yeah like you're saying.
You know, stand-up is like adistraction and then you're
upset again.
Well then, what are otherthings?
Are there things that justreally put you in a different
state of mind?
Would you know seeing somebodyplay amazing music?
Do it.
Would you know watching peopledemonstrate really impossible

(52:09):
skills?
Do it?
Would you know watching babyanimals be nice to other baby
animals?
Do it?
My mind is gravitating toyoutube type stuff because just
so accessible and if you findthe right thing, it can be so
powerful yeah, I'll need toexplore that, I think okay maybe
cooking.

Mark (52:30):
I watch a lot of cooking videos on youtube just because
it makes everything seemfeasible, like I'll actually
cook some of those things.
I could try that.

I always do that anyway, since I cook a lot
for the kids yeah, does it putyou in a good mood to watch a
cooking video?

Mark (52:46):
yeah, not in like the whole like stand-up comedian
kind of way, yeah, but yeah,yeah, I think.
So just doing something with myhands, I think it feels great
okay, so two more categoriesremain.

originally I said three categories, but I
realized it was one more.
So category one is avoid.
Category two is reducereactivity in real time.
Category three is recover.
There's also kind of categoryzero, which is reduce reactivity
overall, not just in theencounter in real time, but
we'll get to that one last.
So let's go back to categorytwo, which is how to reduce

(53:21):
reactivity in real time.

Mark (53:22):
so let's go back to category two, which is how to
reduce reactivity in real time.

So one option, and probably the most obvious,
is to reduce the amount ofexposure in real time in a very
deliberate, shameless way.
You open the door, you see theguy in the car, you shut the
door, right, you just giveyourself a second, instead of 15
seconds, of looking right,because, yeah, that's an

(53:47):
irritant and it seems silly andit is, in a way, right, but the
more we're exposed, the moreupsetting it is, and the less
we're exposed, the lessupsetting it is.
And so just giving yourselfpermission to do this, to to
acknowledge yourself this isreally.
Contact like this is reallyupsetting.
If I see this, I'm going toturn my head, I'm going to close

(54:07):
my eyes, I'm going to turn upthe volume of the music,
whatever it is.
Yeah.
It's not the be all, end all.
It's not like the ideal oroptimal way to deal with things
that irritate us, but if that'swhat we need in the moment,
that's okay, right.
So that's one thing to do inthe moment.
Another thing and this takespreparation, like training is to

(54:28):
have a mental procedure thatyou can call on that will make
it better right then and there,a form of internal distraction
that you can call on that you'revery well versed in.
For example, maybe you practicethinking of a super fun time
that you had with your kids thatyou can really get absorbed in

(54:49):
right Sort of training yourselfto daydream for a minute so that
you can take your mindelsewhere if you need to.
Maybe it's not something withyour kids, maybe it's something
totally different.
Maybe it's a Bible verse thatyou've been studying and you
want to look.
I don't know whatever it isright, but the thing that you've
been studying and you want tolook, I don't know whatever it
is right, but the thing that youcan get sucked into when I
needed to, I used I used my sonfor this and I had like an image
in my head and I could go to itand think of a thing that we

(55:12):
did, but to take your mind awayquickly, and this is similar to
this idea of you open the door,you see him, you shut the door
right.
It's like you open door, you seehim, you shut your mind to him
and you don't allow more andmore exposure to happen.
The challenge is that when,when we see somebody who we are
angry with, the natural impulseis to move toward right.

(55:33):
Anger is about attacking, andso we kind of continue filling
our mind with this person,because our mind is trying to
move toward a person and beingable to shut that down quick
helps us less get upset, and soI did feel like at the party I
was like actively trying tosuppress this fight or flight
response or whatever yeah, yeah,and it's hard.

(55:56):
It's hard work, right.
Whereas if you're able tointernally distract yourself
towards something else, that isvery pleasant to think about or
at least very engaging.
So ideally you find somethingvery pleasant, like a great time
you had with a person you loveor a great time you're planning
to have with a person you loveand planning for it, and like

(56:16):
making the plan, thinking whatwill it be like, like really
engrossing yourself in it, at aminimum, something that is very
engaging, like maybe there'ssome work problem that's on your
mind that you're trying tosolve, right, and just going
there in your mind.
Another thing to do,potentially sillier, is to do
the equivalent of drawing amustache on a picture of a

(56:37):
person you don't like, right,and you can do this mentally.
You can just make themridiculous immediately.
Extend the features.
Imagine them having weirdembarrassing stains someplace on
their clothes.
Imagine them making a strangevoice, whatever it is, just make
them ridiculous in your mind.

(56:58):
It's a basic kind of defensemechanism, but it works when you
need to Like, just makesomething ridiculous about it,
with the understanding that thegoal is to keep yourself from
getting very angry.
So it's also a way of lettingout kind of low-level aggression
Again, like drawing a mustacheon somebody's picture right or

(57:19):
drawing a black tooth on theirsmile, whatever it is.
Sure, sure Makes sense andthey're silly little things, but
the goal is just to kind ofkeep it under some kind of lid
while you're shutting the door.

Mark (57:31):
Right.
Yeah, I think that kind ofechoes to the whole my
inclination to not acknowledgethis person because it's just
not worth it.

Yeah, okay, yeah.
The last thing I wanted tosuggest, or maybe explore with
you a little bit, is thedifference between how upsetting
your ex's partner is to you andhow upsetting your ex is to you
.
Or put differently, what makesit so that your ex is tolerable
to an extent, but your ex'spartner is not?
And in the past you said well,part of it is just necessity and

(58:06):
I have to interact with her,and part of it is that you also
want to reserve a place for heramong the humans of the world,
because she's your kid's motherand it's important you don't
develop such negativity towardher that it somehow affects them
.
Is that right?
Yeah, yeah.

(58:26):
Are there any other reasons thatmake her more tolerable to you
than him?

Mark (58:32):
that really, actually, I would say that my level of
disgust yeah, I guess I'm notsure that's the right word, but
for her is has become more equal, but more equalized.
It's not actually equalized,but it's more equalized.

(58:53):
Like I don't find it pleasantat all to be in her company and
I feel that she wronged me justas much as he did.
You know, yeah, the only gracethat I would give her, just
because she's my kid's mom andthat's it, and they need her to
an extent, right, but yeah,that's it it feels like there's

(59:18):
some difference stillqualitatively between the two of
them.

Right like when you see her now, you're not
upset for days after yes, that'strue.

Mark (59:28):
I guess I should explore why that is.
In early days I think it wasupsetting to see her right, like
there was, like there was thattime she came to the house and
that was really upsetting thegarage yeah, I think it was the
same feeling, actually like this, the same thing when, when she
brought him to the park for thebirthday party thing, right,

(59:48):
yeah, I think it was the samefeeling, right, like this whole
trying to suppress this fight orflight feeling and this anger
and that injustice and thingslike that.
Yeah, anyway, I think over timemaybe maybe over time it got
better or more tolerable to seeher again.

Eran Magen, PhD (01:00:10):
Well, you had to interact with her and
communicate with her a lot rightaway, like throughout and after
the separation and the divorce.
Right, there was a lot ofcommunication happening, like
you had no choice but tohabituate.

Mark (01:00:24):
Yeah, please do not suggest that I start talking to
this guy, okay.

If I do that you won't talk to me, and then
where will I go?
But that that explains thedifference, maybe, or part of
the difference.
Yeah.
But from our conversations Idon't remember a time when, even
like in the thick of it, evenin the middle of it, it just
didn't seem like you had thesame intensity of reaction to
her as you have to him yeah surelike when she came in, she came

(01:00:53):
into your home, opening thedoor to your home and walking in
at night.
Yeah right, this is differentthan seeing her parked in a car
outside the house, right, right.

Mark (01:01:06):
And then you were almost as upset as you were seeing him
in the car outside your houseokay, so you're saying the
proximity and the severity of itwas high, which triggered a
reaction that was high and thatwas as high as a situation where
he wasn't anywhere close tothat yeah, and I'm.

I'm not saying your reaction was too much or
too little in either case, I'mjust pointing out what I'm
seeing like a difference in thekind of intensity of the
stimulus, let's say right, butvery similar reaction on your
end, or maybe even a biggerreaction, for what?
What looks from the outsidelike a lower intensity stimulus,
right Him across the street ina car, and so I wonder, I keep

(01:01:52):
wondering, what makes it so thatyour reaction to him is that
much more intense andconsistently intense than your
reaction to your ex.

Mark (01:02:04):
Maybe it's just the newness of it all.
I don't know.
I don't really know the newnessit all.

I don't know.
I don't really know the newness, in what sense.

Mark (01:02:12):
Well, when they rolled up to my home on Mother's Day, that
was like the first time that Ihad been that close physically
to him.
You know I'd seen him, but likehis eyes, you know I could see
his eyes.

Yeah, whereas, of course, you've seen her eyes
many times and, like we weresaying, throughout the whole
process and after, like you,were constantly in contact with
her.

Mark (01:02:37):
Yeah and yeah I don't know .
And on the other hand, you knowshe's done a lot more wrong to
me than he has in some sensesright, Like when we were in the
same home.
She was emotionally abusive, Iwould say, and she was cold and
mean to me and things like thatyeah maybe it's not that I'm so

(01:03:00):
upset at him.
I'm probably more upset at whatmy ex is doing.

And what is it that she's doing?

Mark (01:03:09):
It's not so much that he as a person is morally bankrupt,
like who's with my kids halfthe time, it's that she's
allowing someone who is morallybankrupt to be with my kids half
the time.
It's not that he was there formy kid's birthday party
uninvited or unexpectedly.

(01:03:30):
It's that she brought him tothe birthday party and purposely
left his name off the guestlist.
Basically, you know, ran usinto each other, right?
Yeah, that is more upsetting.
Like I'm not writing theseemails to him, I'm writing these
emails to her.
You know about what she's doing, you know.

Yeah, and so what she is doing, you said, is
she's allowing him contact withyour kids and she is ignoring
your clearly stated preferencenot to have contact with him.
Right.
And those two are the thingsthat are really upsetting for
you about his existence orappearances in your life.

Mark (01:04:14):
Yeah, I guess.
So it's not that I am.
I need to think about that alittle bit more.
Is that really true?
Am I not as upset about or athim as I am, just about her
actions?

Well, she came to pick up the kids.
You opened the door.
You saw him in the car.
Did you immediately think, oh,that's totally not okay, that my
ex would bring him here.
Or did you think, oh, thisperson.

Mark (01:04:42):
Probably the former.

Is a bad, irritating person.
Yeah, you were upset with herfor bringing him Right.

Mark (01:04:48):
I'm just trying upset with her for bringing him Right.
I'm just trying to think what'sthe difference?

Between what and what.

Mark (01:04:55):
Between me being upset with her for bringing him and me
being upset with her thatthere's this person that I
dislike being brought to my home, or that he's a disgusting
person.
Right, yeah, I need to thinkabout that.

Well, here's some thought experiments.

Mark (01:05:15):
You go to the supermarket and you accidentally run into
him I guess that wouldn't bethat upsetting because I could
just leave, right.
Yeah.
Yeah, I wouldn't feel such astrong desire to punch him in
the face.
I think I felt a strongerdesire to punch him in the face
or push him to like something atthe birthday party.

(01:05:36):
I think it was a combination ofme running into him, kind of
thing, you know, in the presenceof my ex, and then I couldn't
really leave.
Yes, sens.

Yeah, that's very well put.
So it's the combination of thethings.
One is that she's, it seemslike, willfully disregarding
your clearly stated boundary,and that you're sort of trapped
with him.
Yeah.
Okay, new thought experimentReady.
Okay, you are going to where dopeople go?

(01:06:08):
Some important office thing,not at work.
You're going to some localgovernment office thing.
You enter the elevator.
There are six people there.
Somebody presses a buttonSomewhere between floor two and
three.
You discover, to your whore,that one of the six people
standing there is him, and thenthe elevator goes boom and

(01:06:30):
you're stuck between floorsthree and four.
Three and four.

Mark (01:06:31):
You can't leave for a little bit there's six people,
so there's like other peoplethere.
Right, there's four otherpeople.
I don't know, realistically Iprobably just keep to myself in
that situation, but are you?
Super angry it's like agovernment building too.
Yes, I guess I would be.
I guess I'd be super angryafter the fact of when it was

(01:06:54):
all over, yeah.
And then I'd say after thatexperiment, if he tried to talk
to me, sure, that would clearlybe a foolish move.
If he tried to talk to me, yeah.

The other four people would feel very awkward.
That's what I have to say tothat.
But you would be angry with him, even though, uh, this was not
about a boundary violation byyour ex yeah, that's true yeah,
this was an accident.

Mark (01:07:19):
He was there, but you were stuck with him right that would
make you angry yeah, so I guessthat means that this is not
exclusively related to what myex did, but there are elements
of just what he did too.

Yeah, you're giving him agency which you were
clear about before.
Right, You're saying he'smorally bankrupt.
Yeah, Part of what's driving upyour reaction to him is feeling
trapped, stuck somehow with hispresence, which happens if he's
near your home, which happensif he's in a birthday party that
you need to be attending.
What were you?

Mark (01:07:53):
saying sorry.
The morally bankrupt thing islike I always tell myself like
hey, we had just gotten divorcedand she had met this person.
Afterwards I would be totallyfine with it, or I'm pretty sure
I'd be totally fine and you'dbe fine with the person, I'd be
fine with the person and wecould be stuck in that elevator
and I'd be fine you could be atleast civil, but maybe you would

(01:08:16):
not even have a big emotionalreaction at all yeah, right,
like that would be more.
We went our separate ways and weare now discovering who we are
after our marriage has expired.
But in this case, no.

Both of them broke a very sacred promise yeah
, let's, let's keep playing thethought experiments because
they're so much fun.
Let's say that, yeah sure,after the divorce she got
together with a totallydifferent, different person and
you somehow learned that thatseparate person had had an

(01:08:52):
affair and left his wife prior,but not with your ex, somebody
else yeah.

Mark (01:08:59):
no, I wouldn't be okay with that either.
That would make me upset too,because again, this would be.
This would be a person who isin my children's life half the
time, and I think that holdstrue.
It would be like I mean, maybeit's not the same thing, but
like if this person was like adrug dealer or something like I

(01:09:22):
wouldn't want them there either.
That's an issue, right?
Yeah?

that's an issue , right?
Yeah, so part of your actionhere is or a big part of your
action here is driven by,essentially, protectiveness
about your kids wanting tofeeling, feeling upset about
knowing that they're exposed tothis negative influence, right,
whether that person is dealingdrugs or dealing with immorality
right, there is like an elementof like hey, the kids don't
need to know you did that anyway.

Mark (01:09:51):
Yeah, it's not experiment.
I, I don't.
I don't know that we shouldkeep going down this road okay.

So your reaction to him, your reactivity
to him, comes both from feelinglike your ex is disregarding
the boundary that you clearlyset and from feeling like you're
trapped with his presence,combined with the fact that you
feel like his presence isnegatively impacting your kids

(01:10:19):
somehow yeah yeah, like, wheredo you draw the line right?

Mark (01:10:24):
okay, you had an affair with a drug dealer, okay, those
are very severe things, right.
But I don't know, like he playsviolent video games or
something, yeah.
Or I don't know like he listensto crappy music, right.
I don't want it to be like, oh,I have to approve of everything
that my ex is with or everybodymy ex is with.

(01:10:45):
That's not what I'm trying tosay, that's not what I'm trying
to be into, right, and I thinkwe had the conversation before
where, like, this person's notgoing to be another father
figure in our son's lives, youknow, they're not going to get
their values from him, right?
So maybe I'll just revise thethought experiment.

(01:11:07):
Like we found out later thatthey had an affair, would you?
Yeah, I would still beuncomfortable.
I just don't think I'd benearly as angry.
I think there is the elementthat my ex cheated on me with
another person and that doesfactor into it.

(01:11:27):
Yeah another person and thatdoes factor into it.
Yeah, I don't want my kidsgrowing up thinking that with
that model of relationships andnarratives they're in their mind
like there's those statistics,right, like kids who come from
divorced family get divorcedthemselves.
And I don't want that because Idon't want them to think that

(01:11:48):
these things are meaningless.

There's something.

Mark (01:11:52):
It's such a rabbit hole.

Well, yeah, but it's an important rabbit hole,
right, because this isunderstanding the source of your
reactivity and potentiallybeing able to either change it
or accept it Right.
Accept it, right, and there's Idon't know if it's an elephant
in the room exactly, but butthere is something that we
didn't exactly touch on you youkind of mentioned it, but not

(01:12:15):
exactly which is the fact that,in a sense, this is the man who
took your wife, sure, right,this is the man who destroyed
your marriage, you said, andthen you amend it.
You said, well, she destroyedthe marriage, yeah, and he was
part of it, right, and I thinkthat there's it's very easy to
toggle between these twoviewpoints, kind of like when

(01:12:35):
you're looking at one of theseambiguous images.
You know, is it two people or acup, or whatever?
Is that?
yeah, yeah sure it's very easyto toggle between those and
basically assign responsibility,sometimes to him, sometimes to
her, sometimes to both of themthat's not wrong, right, that's

(01:12:56):
just like.
That's just how messy it isyeah, it is messy, and I'm
trying to understand from myside how much of your reaction
to him comes from what I wouldconsider a very basic primitive.
You took my mate, I want to eatyour face off, kind of a

(01:13:16):
reaction because our marriagewas over, like that's.

Mark (01:13:21):
I think the reason I amended it is like our marriage
was over like two years beforethe divorce was over.
I'd kind of suspect that shehad already been unfaithful at
certain points in there, andeven if she hadn't been, she was
checked out.
The whole thing with the poolincident in Hawaii, you know I
still keep going back to thatnow.
Yeah.

(01:13:41):
So I feel like there was such along period when I just had to
rely on you know or like holdfeelings with anymore.
So it's not like I say that tomean like it's not like this
person I don't feel verystrongly about.
Hey, this person took my matebecause I feel like she was gone

(01:14:02):
already.

I'm okay with it because she's just like a
different person in my mind yeahso I wonder to what extent
different parts of you aretelling different stories or if
you're actually quite alignedinternally.
I can imagine the lizard brainbeing like this is the destroyer
, kill him, yeah.
And the neocortex on top sayingshe did it.

(01:14:24):
I mean, he was just kind of anextra in this movie, right?
Could have been anyone, butdoes that sound right?
Is that your experience of itor are you pretty unified
internally in kind of onedirection or another?

Mark (01:14:39):
I want to say it's the latter, like, come on, are the
feelings that came up in therecent past?
Yeah, sure, there's some lizardbrain stuff there.

Yeah, sure, I had that whole fight or flight
response, right, yeah, and thatis very complicated yeah, and at
the risk of sounding like apsychologist, I would also say
that, especially given thatyou're very clear about wanting
to hold some kind of a protectedspot for her as the mother of
your children, it may be simplerfor you to shift some of your

(01:15:14):
anger to him.

Mark (01:15:15):
Yeah, that's fair.
Yeah, you also seem kind oflike dubious about the whole.
The holding the spot for her asa mother of my children, Does
that?
Do you feel that doesn't reallymake sense or is unnecessary?

I think if you're able to do that, that's
amazing, because I do think thatpriority one is preventing
conflict and inner conflict forthe kids and, given that kids
are telepathic, whatever youfeel towards their mom is gonna
at some point, in some way ruboff.
And so or osmosis its way intotheir brains, and so I think
whatever you can do to keep anykind of harmony, or at least

(01:15:54):
minimize disharmony, eveninternally, will be of benefit
to the kids.
And so I am totally with youactually on wanting to protect
their mom's position internallyfor yourself in order to not
generate more tension for them.
Otherwise, I think it would bea different story, right?
If there were no kids, you'd bekind of free to be super upset

(01:16:16):
with her for as long as youneeded, until you were done
processing it.
Yeah.
So I think that's very important.
I'm kind of amazed, honestly,at how well you seem to be able
to do that.
I think that the price you'repaying may be this shifting of
emotions to the nearest obvioustarget, which would be her
partner yeah which, if that'swhat's happening, could also

(01:16:38):
make total sense, and reallyit's not like he did nothing
wrong, like I have no problemwith you being upset with him.
I only wish for you to notexperience the negative results
of that, right?
So I'm just.
I'm just trying to askquestions to help you shine some
light on it, because sometimeslight helps make things clearer

(01:16:59):
and lighter.

Mark (01:17:00):
Yep, okay, yeah, I mean I kind of touched about upon
another thing.
Well, like I own it and severaltimes in the past you know
three or four weeks or the pastthree weeks where I've
contemplated like I would neverdo this, but I've contemplated,
like just doing the nuclearoption, like just saying, hey,
tell them the kids, like, hey,your mom destroyed our marriage,

(01:17:22):
she, she, you know, she cheatedon me and I was very upset.
But I'm not going to do that.
It's just I feel like a lot ofthe injustice sometimes, like
she gets to enjoy this, the factthat I won't do that, this
benefit.

She murders and inherits, right?
Yeah, and I think many of usconsider our kids in a way like
little judges, way like littlejudges, like we want them to
know the truth so that they canrender correct sentences and say
oh, you're right, you're thegood person in this story.
You've been wronged, you didabsolutely everything you could

(01:18:00):
right toward us, toward mom, andyou've been wronged horribly,
because we want somebody to saythis to us and we want somebody
that matters to say this to us,and the person that matters the
most is our kids and, as youknow, right, that's absolutely
the last thing we should bedoing to our kids, because
that'll totally screw them up.

Mark (01:18:18):
Yeah, but the impulse is so natural it's also like if I
have to keep this secret, youshould have to keep the secret
too, or you should also takecare to to not parade him around
in front of me so I don't haveto deal with these things and
don't feel these things anddon't feel tempted to want to do
that.

I think that's wishful thinking, but you know
well it's, it's fantasy andthere's some release in the
fantasy.
Yeah, right, especially whenyou know that you don't intend
to actually pursue it.
Yeah, it's okay to have somefantasy right I guess.
Regarding the part about holdinga spot for their mom, a
protected spot for their mombecause she's their mom, I also
want to add something to what Isaid before about how amazing it

(01:18:59):
is you can do it and how itreduces tension for them and all
of that.
I stand by all of that and it isimportant that you have an
opportunity to feel yourfeelings, and it may be a
complicated tap dance to figureout a way to, yes, be as upset
with her as you need to be andshield them from that and
process it so that you can moveon from that.

(01:19:20):
And so maybe they get exposedto a little bit of that,
telepathically, I mean notbecause of anything you say
explicitly or do explicitly infront of them, right.
Telepathically, I mean notbecause of anything you say
explicitly or do explicitly infront of them, right, but you're
still left with the opportunityto process it.
Because if anything concerns mehere is that sometimes it
sounds like you're not quiteletting yourself place the full

(01:19:41):
weight of responsibility on her,although I hear you
occasionally being quite upsetwith her, which, honestly, is a
relief to me, right?
Yeah?

Mark (01:19:49):
I don't know.
It's somehow related to thewhole.
I feel like I have to hold thisburden of keeping that secret
from my kids.
You know, and therefore youknow, there are certain feelings
that I also have to not feel.

Yeah, given your buy-in to this idea of
child telepathy, right, which Ishare, right right.
Yeah, so I'm sure we'll talkabout this in the future again,
but I guess I want to pushagainst that gently and say it's
still important for you to beable to feel your feelings,
because everything you're doingyou're teaching them right, and

(01:20:24):
right now, part of what you'reteaching them is to not feel
your feelings.

Mark (01:20:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true, like when I expressed a
lot of my anger.
I think I told you this.
Like when I expressed a lot ofmy anger to one of my friends at
church, they were like, oh yeah, we felt like this for a long
time.
Yeah, you're just catching up?
Yeah.

Yeah, and so I think I have lots of thoughts
about this.
But part of the benefit ofhaving many days go without you
seeing them is that you havetime to do your thing and think
your thoughts and have yourfeelings right, and it's not
that you need to portray theirmom as a positive person to them
constantly and defend her spotand whatnot right Like she

(01:21:05):
doesn't need to be in a presencein your relationship with your
kids, which means that you canhave a relationship with her
representation in your mind.
That does not that your kidsdon't need to have contact with.
This is the same as you, youknow, being upset at somebody at
work that your kids don't knowand that probably doesn't come
into conversation too oftenright right okay, right, but to

(01:21:27):
yes, allow yourself to to feelthe things and to process the
things, rather than feel likeyou need to protect her, to
carry that burden, to require ofyourself to somehow stay
positive and keep her in thelight as much as you can for
their sake no, I don't thinkit's that extreme, yeah, yeah.

(01:21:47):
Yeah, yeah, but to allow alittle more.
Right Again, I think it's aworthwhile, at the very least,
thought experiment.
Yeah, yeah, because I think thecost of suppressing emotions or
emotional processes on one sideis that the energy is going to
pop out elsewhere.
Yeah.

Mark (01:22:08):
I think about the early days when she was running them
into him, you know, to try toget them kind of used to me
being gone and used to hispresence, and how frustrated my
kids felt at that point and itstill sticks with me to this day
.
And you know like it was to thepoint where he moved in and I

(01:22:28):
asked my kids how they feltabout that and they were like
it's not like we can do anythingabout it and that was kind of
heartbreaking yeah, I agree.

The I mean the helplessness of children is
heartbreaking and especially ina case like this, when they
they're just so like painfullypragmatic about it.

Mark (01:22:49):
Like Asher, the older one still talks about like I mean,
he doesn't talk about how he'sfrustrated, but he's like I'm
okay, but he still kind ofalludes to like sometimes he has
to put up with certain thingsand you know, whereas the
younger one, not blissfullyunaware but like he's just very
much still, you know, trust hismom yeah, and we'll see what

(01:23:14):
happens right over over themonths and years.

Yeah, in terms of how this plays out in their
life, in terms of how much timethey want to spend there versus
with you yeah, we'll see and Ithink it's important to also
just make sure that we put thisinto good perspective like how
are they doing in general?
What's their life experience ingeneral?
Everybody has some frustration,some upset, like is this a big

(01:23:37):
thing that's preventing themfrom enjoying their lives?
Is it a constant, seriousirritant?
Is it like an occasional smallone?

Mark (01:23:45):
I think in general, things are pretty good, even these
things that we're talking about.
It's just minor annoyances thatoccur Like once a fortnight or
something right, yeah, you knowwhere we come from, and stuff

(01:24:05):
like that.
All these things, I think, arefor the better.
I actually had a conversationwith the boys last night as they
were going to bed and it waslike you know, after traditions,
brushing the teeth and stuff,it's a little sad, but you know,
it's like I still miss mommy.
You know I'm sad about thedivorce, and then we kind of

(01:24:26):
talked about a little more.
Have you noticed that we'redoing new things, different
things than we used to, thingsthat we probably wouldn't have
done when we were together?
He's like oh yeah, that's true.
And then I don't know if Ishould ask this, but I was like
do you see anything different inme?
Cause I feel like I'm muchbetter off than before.

(01:24:48):
Yeah.
And Asher, the older one, waslike yeah, yeah, I can tell that
you're happier too.
So overall, I think there'ssome sense of like this was the
better thing to do.
Yeah.

Yeah, which doesn't change the fact that
there's very unpleasant thingsto deal with in the meantime.
Yeah, yeah, which doesn'tchange the fact that there's
very unpleasant things to dealwith in the meantime.
Yeah, but yeah, this is in away the lesser bad.

Mark (01:25:15):
You were talking, I think all this stuff came up because
he's also sad because, you know,it's the last day of school and
he's going to miss all of hisfriends, and so my kid loves
school, so they're going to missall their friends.
And I was like well, becauselast year he ended on the last
day of school.
He just cried the whole time.
And I was like well, do youwant to end the school year on a
happy note or in treasure thefun you had, or just be sad?

(01:25:38):
And he's like no, I want to endit with a happy note.
Then you have to maybe try tothink about all the happier
things, like all the happymoments you share with your
friends, rather than just beingsad.
He's like okay, I'll try, we'llsee how it goes.
And then, like you know, in ahalf an hour, a lot of big
feelings.

Last night I bet possibly today too.

Mark (01:26:01):
Yeah, honestly today too.
Yeah, it'll be my last nightbefore they go off for two weeks
.
We'll go to the beach tomorrow.
Um, all right, hey appreciateit.

Yeah, my pleasure, good to see you.
Bye, bye.

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