February 12, 2024 • 15 mins
Join DMPA Vice President and COO, Laura Sweet, as she visits with Tory Dobrin, Artistic Director for Les Ballets Trockadero de Monte Carlo. Listen as Tory describes the history and heritage of this incredible dance company and how the company approaches their art.
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(00:06):
Thank you for joining us for thisepisode of DMPA Conversations with Tory Dobrin,
Artistic director of Les Ballet's Trocaderos deMonte Carlo. I am Laura Sweet,
Vice President and CEO of Des MoinesPerforming Arts and we are delighted to bring
you this special podcast in conjunction withour engagement of La Ballet Trocaderos de Monte
Carlo, part of dmpa's Dance series. These podcasts are designed to give you
(00:30):
an insider's perspective on the fantastic performancesheaded to DMPA stages. Thank you again
for joining us, and now hereis my conversation with Tory Dobrin. So,
(00:54):
Tory, to get us started,maybe just describe the company well.
The Ballet Rocdo de Monte Carlo isan all male comedy ballet company with the
emphasis on comedy and ballet, andwe use drag as part of the vehicle
for comedy. So it's a reallygood show because it's lots of fun.
(01:15):
The audience really has a good time, as do we as well on stage.
But the dancing is also really reallygood. When we started in nineteen
seventy four and I joined in nineteeneighty, the dancing could not compare to
what we have now, very veryskilled dancers who are very, very comfortable
on stage. So the audience,barring not having a tornado or hurricane,
(01:38):
should come and really have a goodtime and bring their children. That's one
thing I've loved about The Tracks isI think it is a fun dance performance.
It's good for people who are newto the art form. And you
started to talk about the history.Tell us about your journey when you started
dancing, how long you were withthe company, how you found the tracks.
Originally, I'm from Los Angeles andI trained there, and then I
moved to New York and danced aroundat various places like Gradio City Music Hall.
(02:02):
Then I auditioned for the Trocadero innineteen eighty because a friend of mine
was in the company and he saidthey needed dancers to go on a twelve
week toward to South America. Thetrip to South America was the most fascinating
thing and the most fun experience Ihad on a tour or on stage,
because in nineteen eighty it was theheight of the military dictatorships, so the
(02:27):
countries that we went to were allvery I want to just say repressive,
and it was really interesting to experiencethat in the street. Also, I
don't think that the countries that wewent to, I don't think the governments
understood what we were. I thinkthey thought we were the Ballet of Monte
Carlo. So as soon as thepublic found out what we were, they
flocked to the theater as a wayto express the possibility of being free.
(02:53):
And so the audiences were just absolutelyfantastic because usually in ballet, you know,
everyone is very quiet and then theyclawed, and it's the ballerino or
the mail does something great, youknow, people cheer. But basically this
was like almost a riot in thetheater in every country we went to.
So your twelve week run certainly hada longer extension. You were talking about
(03:14):
the amazing legacy for Marcus that thetracks have performed in up to and including
were you with the company when theywere in Russia. Yeah, we've went
to Russia twice. Difficult tours.There was one of my favorite things that
I think it was nineteen ninety Thisis nineteen ninety four. I was the
director at that time and I wentto see the director of the theater.
(03:35):
They did in the theater, didn'tbook us up a promoter rent at the
theater. I went in there saying, hello, how are you you know?
American? Friendly American And he said, well, you're dancing on our
stage this year, but last yearyou all would have been arrested. I
thought that was the funniest thing,and of course I laughed, and you
got incensed and I said goodbye.But anyway, it's a good story.
Yeah, well for sure, andyou probably have had different kinds of reactions
(03:59):
depending on the eye from performing toowell. Generally speaking, if you come
to see the company, you knowwhat it's about. So the audiences are
always very friendly. Sometimes we've hada reaction from the community that wasn't the
friendliest, but that hasn't happened ina really long time. Now. There's
an athleticism in addition to a comedicvalue that the trucks bring to the stage
that few other companies do. Talkto us a little bit about the rep
(04:20):
that you're planning for des Moines orwhat the audiences can expect. You know,
we tour widely and I always trywhen we come back to a place,
we try to bring in a newprogram. Of course, so that's
number one. Number two. It'sour fiftieth anniversary, so we're reviving a
lot of ballets from different eras ofthe company. In Des Moines, Iowa.
We're doing, of course Swan LakeAC two, and we're also doing
(04:42):
a ballet that we haven't done ina very long time called Yes Virginia,
another piano ballet which is one ofour early ballets and which we had revived
specifically for the fiftieth anniversary. Andthen The Dying Swamp, which is another
one of our signature pieces, whichwill be done by Olga Supposeaba, who
been with us now for twenty fiveyears. So it's a really varied and
(05:03):
nice program. Swan Lake is actuallyour campiest piece because people actually are coming
to see the company with the comedy, and so we throw everything in the
kitchen scene to Swan Lake, includingvadvil jokes, personality jokes, character jokes,
music jokes. It's all in there. I can't wait personally, really
(05:25):
looking forward to it. I'm assumingthere's a lot of on stage divas,
but one thing I've loved about readingand learning more about the tracks is that
the diva is sort of reserved forthe on stage persona. It seems like
it's a group of really down toearth, lovely humans. Off stage,
you hit the nail on the head. We want all the divattitude on stage
(05:46):
and not off. I don't knowif you've been in a touring situation with
a bunch of people. It reallyrequires that everyone bring their best foot forward.
There's a lot of things about touringwhich is very difficult, such as
being stuck in airports, the isolationof not having people around other than the
people you're traveling with. The fatiguethat sets in from touring is epic,
(06:08):
and all of those things really playinto someone's character. And sometimes the character
gets tired, and when you're tired, what happens You kind of go into
the emotional side of things. Themotto of the company is we don't talk
about it when it's happening. Wetalked about it afterwards, and then we
can laugh about it. So that'ssuper important that everyone be a team player.
(06:30):
And I stress that when someone auditionsfor the company, I say we're
looking for three things. A dancerwho's technically good, someone with a sense
of humor, which could be justa personality that is very open and fun,
but team player you show up ontime, You treat your colleagues with
professionalism. They said, you don'thave to like everybody, you don't have
(06:54):
to fit in even but you haveto be able to function. And it's
been that way now for a verylong time. And I know other companies
don't do that, but we do, and it's really important. Can you
talk a little bit about how youallow the individual's individual dancers to sort of
inform the characters they are on stage. Well, it really depends on the
(07:14):
dancer, because some dancers they knowwhat they're doing and they do it,
and you don't want to get inthe way of that because it's usually fresh
and interesting and that's what the audiencesees and enjoys. So that's number one.
Number two, there are some peoplewho don't actually get it, and
then you have to You don't tellthem specifically what to do, but you
(07:34):
talk about the character and what you'retrying to portray. Now, if someone
doesn't really get it, they don'tget a lot to do in the beginning
when they join, and they're advisedto watch. And again, if they
are team players, they're interested inthat. If they're egomaniacs, they're not
interested in that and it doesn't workfor them. The thing you don't want
(07:55):
to do is that you don't wantto say this is how we did it
before, this is how you haveto do it because we become a museum
and you can't tell Lucille Ball todo her shtick like Gracie Allen or Joan
Rivers with Philis Diller. They're differentcomedians, so you have to allow them
to be themselves. And so that'show we play it. But again I'm
(08:18):
talking about it intellectually now because youasked the question, and in order to
communicate, I have to use words. We try not to use too many
words. We try to set upan environment that is conducive to them feeling
free to develop themselves. Does itwork all the time, No, But
that's what we try and that's whatmakes it fun. And I've consistently been
(08:39):
impressed with the tracks from a physicalityand athleticism standpoint, But also these are
some fantastically beautiful creatures when they comeout on stage. Can you talk also
about do all the answers come withtheir own idea about how their makeup will
transform into their characters on stage?Or is the makeup something and the becoming
(09:00):
their own personal ballerina. Is that'ssomething that some have to kind of get
coached into finding their way to allof the above. Yeah, so some
of them come very familiar with theirmakeup. Some of them think that we're
you know, circus performers, andso we have to tell them, you
know, this is you don't wearblack lipstick. You know, you're a
ballerina. This is our projection.So you have to be in line with
(09:24):
that. You have a lot offreedom within that. But still, you
know, we're not goth type characters. The other thing, and if you
don't know a lot about makeup,then you know, Bobby Robert Carter,
one of our seniors and others,they help the guys we assigned if we
if they say, you know,I really don't understand a lot about makeup,
we put them in the dressing roomof Bobby or some of the older
(09:45):
ones and they help them and thenyou learn. But part of the fun
of is the makeup you put theYou know, you have an hour and
a half to put on the makeupbefore the show, and that's really where
you kind of relax and get intoyour character. And and also the fun
of it, I mean I don'tknow if you've ever gone to a Halloween
party or dressed up, it kindof frees you. You know, you
kind of hide behind that character,so you become a little zany and a
(10:09):
little bit you know, funny,and that's what happens to us as well.
It brings out the zany, andwe want zany, you know,
zany is good. The other thingis that, you know, when you're
talking about another ballet company, alot of times people don't get to dance
that much because either there's a lotof people or they don't do as many
performances as we do. But theseguys are on stage a lot, and
(10:31):
so the more stage experiences you have, the better you become, and the
more relaxed you are, and themore confidence you are. And that's what
the audience is seen. Also inother ballet companies, for instance, everyone
is really interested. Directors are interestedin tidiness and cleanliness, you know,
clean double pair wet, and whenyou try to be over cleanliness, it
(10:54):
tends to take the spark away.So we are going two pair of wets,
no try for you know, falldown, get up, you know
that kind of thing, and itdoes free you to go for it,
and the girls are doing double peerwets. They could also do three and
four peer wets possibly, but theywant to be cleaned. Our point of
view is to go for the attack, and so the audience sees something familiar,
(11:20):
they see the pair of wet,but they're seeing it in a different
way because the projection the attack isdifferent. I love that, and it's
special to have almost a fifty yearlegacy. I mean, I think that
for any company is just a markof resilience. I was also reading about
how the trucks survived during COVID.I mean, that was a time where
when a lot of dancers had topivot and do other things. So it's
(11:41):
great that the trucks came out onthe other side still as strong as we
remember them before going into COVID.Well, I have to say that COVID,
you know, was difficult for everybody, right, but the funding sources
and the government really stepped in tohelp. It also strengthened us because we
never really had any time to actuallyspend in rehearsal because we're so busy getting
(12:05):
ready for a tour. So wework rehearsed for a week and then we're
trying to get everything together and thenwe go on the road. We had
a lot of rehearsal time, soit was very, very strengthening for the
dancers and also for the organization.I mean, I hate to say that
that was good for us, butit had some positive elements. For sure.
There's always a silver lining, right, There's always not always, but
(12:28):
in this case, many times sometimesthey have to look harder than others.
Exactly, Tori, what do youhope that audiences take away from the Trucks
performance here in Des Moines. It'svery important to us as a company that
the audience leaves the theater in asuper good mood, smiling, laughing,
and the really having said to themselvesand their companion that was time well spent
(12:52):
in the theater. I feel elevatedby that experience. I can't wait to
see them again. And then theysay, but I I had no idea
they were such sensational dancers in termsof the people who come into the theater.
All segments of society come to theshow, and that's the great thing.
You look at the audience and Inow I'm going to stereotype everything,
(13:13):
So excuse me as a stereotype.You have women who love ballet, who
bring their husbands who hate ballet butlike comedy. They bring their grandparents who
maybe don't get out very long,or their parents who don't get out very
long because they don't want to beout at night, and it's fun for
them. They bring their children andtheir children's children, and the gay and
lesbian crowd comes, the ballet crowdcomes, the comedy crowd comes, everyone
(13:37):
comes. And it's also super appropriatefor children. Now it's not a children's
show, but it's appropriate as anintroduction to children to ballet because it's just
good, clean fun with highly skilledcomedians and dancers. And I think that's
really important. That's a great thingto reiterate. And I do think that
what we're trying to do with thedance program is make sure that there's inroads
(14:00):
for a lot of different audiences tofind a home with dance. Right.
I think some people feel like danceisn't for me, But you just did
a great job of articulating the manydifferent communities that can really find a way
to enjoy their evening together, whetheror not it's through a specific dance lens
or through just the comedy lens,or just the incredible high quality athleticism.
(14:22):
It's just you said that so well, So thank you, thank you,
all right, thank you, Toy. Take care. We appreciate you joining
us for this special conversation. Thedes Moin Performing Arts Conversations podcast is produced
(14:46):
by Andrew Downs. To our donorsand season ticket holders, thank you for
providing the foundation for great performances andeducational opportunities at des Moin Performing Arts.
Visit DMPA dot org or wherever youget your podcasts for future conversations like this
one. Thanks for listening.
Thank you for joining us for thisepisode of DMPA Conversations with Tory Dobrin,
Artistic director of Les Ballet's Trocaderos deMonte Carlo. I am Laura Sweet,
Vice President and CEO of Des MoinesPerforming Arts and we are delighted to bring
you this special podcast in conjunction withour engagement of La Ballet Trocaderos de Monte
Carlo, part of dmpa's Dance series. These podcasts are designed to give you
(00:30):
an insider's perspective on the fantastic performancesheaded to DMPA stages. Thank you again
for joining us, and now hereis my conversation with Tory Dobrin. So,
(00:54):
Tory, to get us started,maybe just describe the company well.
The Ballet Rocdo de Monte Carlo isan all male comedy ballet company with the
emphasis on comedy and ballet, andwe use drag as part of the vehicle
for comedy. So it's a reallygood show because it's lots of fun.
(01:15):
The audience really has a good time, as do we as well on stage.
But the dancing is also really reallygood. When we started in nineteen
seventy four and I joined in nineteeneighty, the dancing could not compare to
what we have now, very veryskilled dancers who are very, very comfortable
on stage. So the audience,barring not having a tornado or hurricane,
(01:38):
should come and really have a goodtime and bring their children. That's one
thing I've loved about The Tracks isI think it is a fun dance performance.
It's good for people who are newto the art form. And you
started to talk about the history.Tell us about your journey when you started
dancing, how long you were withthe company, how you found the tracks.
Originally, I'm from Los Angeles andI trained there, and then I
moved to New York and danced aroundat various places like Gradio City Music Hall.
(02:02):
Then I auditioned for the Trocadero innineteen eighty because a friend of mine
was in the company and he saidthey needed dancers to go on a twelve
week toward to South America. Thetrip to South America was the most fascinating
thing and the most fun experience Ihad on a tour or on stage,
because in nineteen eighty it was theheight of the military dictatorships, so the
(02:27):
countries that we went to were allvery I want to just say repressive,
and it was really interesting to experiencethat in the street. Also, I
don't think that the countries that wewent to, I don't think the governments
understood what we were. I thinkthey thought we were the Ballet of Monte
Carlo. So as soon as thepublic found out what we were, they
flocked to the theater as a wayto express the possibility of being free.
(02:53):
And so the audiences were just absolutelyfantastic because usually in ballet, you know,
everyone is very quiet and then theyclawed, and it's the ballerino or
the mail does something great, youknow, people cheer. But basically this
was like almost a riot in thetheater in every country we went to.
So your twelve week run certainly hada longer extension. You were talking about
(03:14):
the amazing legacy for Marcus that thetracks have performed in up to and including
were you with the company when theywere in Russia. Yeah, we've went
to Russia twice. Difficult tours.There was one of my favorite things that
I think it was nineteen ninety Thisis nineteen ninety four. I was the
director at that time and I wentto see the director of the theater.
(03:35):
They did in the theater, didn'tbook us up a promoter rent at the
theater. I went in there saying, hello, how are you you know?
American? Friendly American And he said, well, you're dancing on our
stage this year, but last yearyou all would have been arrested. I
thought that was the funniest thing,and of course I laughed, and you
got incensed and I said goodbye.But anyway, it's a good story.
Yeah, well for sure, andyou probably have had different kinds of reactions
(03:59):
depending on the eye from performing toowell. Generally speaking, if you come
to see the company, you knowwhat it's about. So the audiences are
always very friendly. Sometimes we've hada reaction from the community that wasn't the
friendliest, but that hasn't happened ina really long time. Now. There's
an athleticism in addition to a comedicvalue that the trucks bring to the stage
that few other companies do. Talkto us a little bit about the rep
(04:20):
that you're planning for des Moines orwhat the audiences can expect. You know,
we tour widely and I always trywhen we come back to a place,
we try to bring in a newprogram. Of course, so that's
number one. Number two. It'sour fiftieth anniversary, so we're reviving a
lot of ballets from different eras ofthe company. In Des Moines, Iowa.
We're doing, of course Swan LakeAC two, and we're also doing
(04:42):
a ballet that we haven't done ina very long time called Yes Virginia,
another piano ballet which is one ofour early ballets and which we had revived
specifically for the fiftieth anniversary. Andthen The Dying Swamp, which is another
one of our signature pieces, whichwill be done by Olga Supposeaba, who
been with us now for twenty fiveyears. So it's a really varied and
(05:03):
nice program. Swan Lake is actuallyour campiest piece because people actually are coming
to see the company with the comedy, and so we throw everything in the
kitchen scene to Swan Lake, includingvadvil jokes, personality jokes, character jokes,
music jokes. It's all in there. I can't wait personally, really
(05:25):
looking forward to it. I'm assumingthere's a lot of on stage divas,
but one thing I've loved about readingand learning more about the tracks is that
the diva is sort of reserved forthe on stage persona. It seems like
it's a group of really down toearth, lovely humans. Off stage,
you hit the nail on the head. We want all the divattitude on stage
(05:46):
and not off. I don't knowif you've been in a touring situation with
a bunch of people. It reallyrequires that everyone bring their best foot forward.
There's a lot of things about touringwhich is very difficult, such as
being stuck in airports, the isolationof not having people around other than the
people you're traveling with. The fatiguethat sets in from touring is epic,
(06:08):
and all of those things really playinto someone's character. And sometimes the character
gets tired, and when you're tired, what happens You kind of go into
the emotional side of things. Themotto of the company is we don't talk
about it when it's happening. Wetalked about it afterwards, and then we
can laugh about it. So that'ssuper important that everyone be a team player.
(06:30):
And I stress that when someone auditionsfor the company, I say we're
looking for three things. A dancerwho's technically good, someone with a sense
of humor, which could be justa personality that is very open and fun,
but team player you show up ontime, You treat your colleagues with
professionalism. They said, you don'thave to like everybody, you don't have
(06:54):
to fit in even but you haveto be able to function. And it's
been that way now for a verylong time. And I know other companies
don't do that, but we do, and it's really important. Can you
talk a little bit about how youallow the individual's individual dancers to sort of
inform the characters they are on stage. Well, it really depends on the
(07:14):
dancer, because some dancers they knowwhat they're doing and they do it,
and you don't want to get inthe way of that because it's usually fresh
and interesting and that's what the audiencesees and enjoys. So that's number one.
Number two, there are some peoplewho don't actually get it, and
then you have to You don't tellthem specifically what to do, but you
(07:34):
talk about the character and what you'retrying to portray. Now, if someone
doesn't really get it, they don'tget a lot to do in the beginning
when they join, and they're advisedto watch. And again, if they
are team players, they're interested inthat. If they're egomaniacs, they're not
interested in that and it doesn't workfor them. The thing you don't want
(07:55):
to do is that you don't wantto say this is how we did it
before, this is how you haveto do it because we become a museum
and you can't tell Lucille Ball todo her shtick like Gracie Allen or Joan
Rivers with Philis Diller. They're differentcomedians, so you have to allow them
to be themselves. And so that'show we play it. But again I'm
(08:18):
talking about it intellectually now because youasked the question, and in order to
communicate, I have to use words. We try not to use too many
words. We try to set upan environment that is conducive to them feeling
free to develop themselves. Does itwork all the time, No, But
that's what we try and that's whatmakes it fun. And I've consistently been
(08:39):
impressed with the tracks from a physicalityand athleticism standpoint, But also these are
some fantastically beautiful creatures when they comeout on stage. Can you talk also
about do all the answers come withtheir own idea about how their makeup will
transform into their characters on stage?Or is the makeup something and the becoming
(09:00):
their own personal ballerina. Is that'ssomething that some have to kind of get
coached into finding their way to allof the above. Yeah, so some
of them come very familiar with theirmakeup. Some of them think that we're
you know, circus performers, andso we have to tell them, you
know, this is you don't wearblack lipstick. You know, you're a
ballerina. This is our projection.So you have to be in line with
(09:24):
that. You have a lot offreedom within that. But still, you
know, we're not goth type characters. The other thing, and if you
don't know a lot about makeup,then you know, Bobby Robert Carter,
one of our seniors and others,they help the guys we assigned if we
if they say, you know,I really don't understand a lot about makeup,
we put them in the dressing roomof Bobby or some of the older
(09:45):
ones and they help them and thenyou learn. But part of the fun
of is the makeup you put theYou know, you have an hour and
a half to put on the makeupbefore the show, and that's really where
you kind of relax and get intoyour character. And and also the fun
of it, I mean I don'tknow if you've ever gone to a Halloween
party or dressed up, it kindof frees you. You know, you
kind of hide behind that character,so you become a little zany and a
(10:09):
little bit you know, funny,and that's what happens to us as well.
It brings out the zany, andwe want zany, you know,
zany is good. The other thingis that, you know, when you're
talking about another ballet company, alot of times people don't get to dance
that much because either there's a lotof people or they don't do as many
performances as we do. But theseguys are on stage a lot, and
(10:31):
so the more stage experiences you have, the better you become, and the
more relaxed you are, and themore confidence you are. And that's what
the audience is seen. Also inother ballet companies, for instance, everyone
is really interested. Directors are interestedin tidiness and cleanliness, you know,
clean double pair wet, and whenyou try to be over cleanliness, it
(10:54):
tends to take the spark away.So we are going two pair of wets,
no try for you know, falldown, get up, you know
that kind of thing, and itdoes free you to go for it,
and the girls are doing double peerwets. They could also do three and
four peer wets possibly, but theywant to be cleaned. Our point of
view is to go for the attack, and so the audience sees something familiar,
(11:20):
they see the pair of wet,but they're seeing it in a different
way because the projection the attack isdifferent. I love that, and it's
special to have almost a fifty yearlegacy. I mean, I think that
for any company is just a markof resilience. I was also reading about
how the trucks survived during COVID.I mean, that was a time where
when a lot of dancers had topivot and do other things. So it's
(11:41):
great that the trucks came out onthe other side still as strong as we
remember them before going into COVID.Well, I have to say that COVID,
you know, was difficult for everybody, right, but the funding sources
and the government really stepped in tohelp. It also strengthened us because we
never really had any time to actuallyspend in rehearsal because we're so busy getting
(12:05):
ready for a tour. So wework rehearsed for a week and then we're
trying to get everything together and thenwe go on the road. We had
a lot of rehearsal time, soit was very, very strengthening for the
dancers and also for the organization.I mean, I hate to say that
that was good for us, butit had some positive elements. For sure.
There's always a silver lining, right, There's always not always, but
(12:28):
in this case, many times sometimesthey have to look harder than others.
Exactly, Tori, what do youhope that audiences take away from the Trucks
performance here in Des Moines. It'svery important to us as a company that
the audience leaves the theater in asuper good mood, smiling, laughing,
and the really having said to themselvesand their companion that was time well spent
(12:52):
in the theater. I feel elevatedby that experience. I can't wait to
see them again. And then theysay, but I I had no idea
they were such sensational dancers in termsof the people who come into the theater.
All segments of society come to theshow, and that's the great thing.
You look at the audience and Inow I'm going to stereotype everything,
(13:13):
So excuse me as a stereotype.You have women who love ballet, who
bring their husbands who hate ballet butlike comedy. They bring their grandparents who
maybe don't get out very long,or their parents who don't get out very
long because they don't want to beout at night, and it's fun for
them. They bring their children andtheir children's children, and the gay and
lesbian crowd comes, the ballet crowdcomes, the comedy crowd comes, everyone
(13:37):
comes. And it's also super appropriatefor children. Now it's not a children's
show, but it's appropriate as anintroduction to children to ballet because it's just
good, clean fun with highly skilledcomedians and dancers. And I think that's
really important. That's a great thingto reiterate. And I do think that
what we're trying to do with thedance program is make sure that there's inroads
(14:00):
for a lot of different audiences tofind a home with dance. Right.
I think some people feel like danceisn't for me, But you just did
a great job of articulating the manydifferent communities that can really find a way
to enjoy their evening together, whetheror not it's through a specific dance lens
or through just the comedy lens,or just the incredible high quality athleticism.
(14:22):
It's just you said that so well, So thank you, thank you,
all right, thank you, Toy. Take care. We appreciate you joining
us for this special conversation. Thedes Moin Performing Arts Conversations podcast is produced
(14:46):
by Andrew Downs. To our donorsand season ticket holders, thank you for
providing the foundation for great performances andeducational opportunities at des Moin Performing Arts.
Visit DMPA dot org or wherever youget your podcasts for future conversations like this
one. Thanks for listening.
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