July 8, 2025 • 48 mins
Hands down the best part of hosting this podcast is the relationships I’ve been able to build with people in this community. From keeping in touch with guests turned friends, to hosting the DNA surprise retreat, to the special group of folks who join our Third Thursday meetups, I’m so grateful for the connections I’ve formed here.
In this week’s special episode, I’m joined by Jill, who first appeared on the podcast in February of last year. She has since released her second memoir, focused on her DNA surprise, so she joined me to discuss all that’s happened since we first spoke. We discuss some of my burning questions about her book, When You Shake the Family Tree, as well as where she’s currently at with her biological family. You can find your copy of Jill’s book at justbeingjill.com.
Thanks for joining me Jill.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I'm not coming at anybody. I'm not trying to hurt anybody.
I'm not trying to blame anybody.I'm just trying to say this is
life and it happened, and now here I am, you know, So I don't
know that my story coming out has truly hurt anybody over
(00:20):
here, the key players. Because I would like to think
that my book has freed my raisedfather from having to carry
those secrets anymore. And I hope that it has freed my
biological father from having to, you know, exit his lifetime
having to say, well, I didn't reach out to her.
(00:40):
I didn't talk to that girl. I didn't give at the time of
day. You know, he did sit down with
me. And if that's all I ever get, he
at least can know that he gave me that right?
Welcome to DNA Surprises, a podcast that delves into the
world of unexpected DNA discoveries.
I'm your host, Alexis ourselves.In July 2021, my life took a
(01:05):
surprising turn when I found outthat I'm an N P/E, a person who
has experienced a non paternal event.
In other words, my biological father isn't who I thought he
was. Join me as we explore the
stories of NP, ES, adoptees, anddonor conceived people and their
(01:25):
families. Get ready to unravel the
astonishing journeys that begin with a simple DNA test.
This is DNA Surprises, hands down.
One of my favorite things about hosting this podcast is the
connections that I've made within this community.
From keeping in touch with guests to hosting the DNA
Surprise Retreat, to the specialgroup of folks who join our
(01:49):
third Thursday meetups, I'm so grateful for the connections
that I've formed. In this week's episode, I'm
joined by Jill, who first appeared on the podcast in
February of last year. She has since released her
second memoir, which is focused on her DNA Surprise.
She joined me to discuss all that's happened since she first
appeared on the podcast. We discussed some of my burning
(02:11):
questions around her book, When You Shake the Family Tree, as
well as where she's currently atwith her biological family.
You can find your copy of Jill'sbook at Just Being jill.com.
Thanks for joining me again, Jill.
Welcome to a special update episode of DNA Surprises.
I am joined today by Jill, who joined me.
(02:34):
Gosh, was it a year ago 2. Years ago, last February, 1 year
ago. Of course, we probably recorded
it a few months prior to the actual release, but it released
one year ago. That's right.
And when we last spoke, Jill waswriting a book.
She'd already written one, and then she was going to write
(02:54):
another. In the process of writing
another specifically about her DNA surprise.
And she has since released the book and there are even more
updates since we last spoke. And I'm really excited to get
into it. I've read the book, I have tons
of questions, and Jill joins us regularly on our third Thursday
(03:18):
call. So I've heard bits about the
things that have happened in herstory as it's progressed, but
the book really does dive a lot deeper into some of the things
that have happened. And so I'm really excited to to
dive in. Thank you for joining me again,
Jill. Thank you so much for having me
back. It's such a pleasure to be able
to come back and give you and your followers an update and
(03:40):
talk about what's happened. Yes, well, so let's just jump in
what happened after we last spoke.
Well, interesting you should saythat because I of course
listened to our episode this morning just to kind of give
myself a refresher. And one of the things that we
did leave off with was the hopesthat my book would be coming out
very soon after that episode launched or perhaps even when
(04:02):
that episode was launching last February.
And I realized, wow, that is exactly about the time I sat on
my book like an egg. I had to take a big pause and
break away from the project. That's the thing with writing
memoir is that, you know, it's such an emotional roller coaster
(04:23):
that there were many times throughout the project where I
would be in this big time writing mode and get a whole
bunch done. And then I'd hit something that
really struck a nerve and I would have to walk away for some
time. And sometimes those that could
be a couple days, sometimes thatturned into a couple of months.
And after our podcast, I can't remember a particular episode
(04:43):
that might have sent me back. But for some reason, I really
started procrastinating and I put the project away for a
little bit. And then before you know it,
spring was springing and I was like, Oh my gosh, I've got to
get this done. I had found somebody to help me
publish the book and they had given me a bit of a time frame
like, OK, this is when it could happen.
So I I treated myself as a second time memoir writer to a
(05:08):
lake house property for for fourdays where I locked myself in
sign. It was in this beautiful
lakefront community, but it was April here in Western New York.
So that's still quite a bit chilly and yucky for us.
And I wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote until that book was
done. And right about that exact time,
I was continuing to work with mytherapist and come to find out
(05:31):
the thing that was holding me back was I was afraid to write
the ending of my story. I was afraid in whatever tone I
ended that book would be what I would be willing or calling in
for myself or kind of putting, you know, a hard line in my
story. And then feel I felt like I was
(05:52):
going to have this feeling like it was coming to an end or that
was going to be it. And it took my therapist to walk
me through that and say, so you're the author, you get to
write the ending, you're going to leave it nice and open-ended,
and that's going to invite in whatever is supposed to come.
And so when I took that four dayhiatus from the world and
(06:13):
finished writing, that's exactlywhat I did.
I made sure that I wrote the story, you know, very detailed
to what was going on with all ofthe episodes that had been
happening, but also very open-ended so that there wasn't
closure or anything definitive. And so it got finished late last
spring of 2024. The editing process started
(06:35):
happening through the summer of 2024, got submitted to the
publishing company in the fall, and on December 12th of 2024,
When You Shake the Family Tree finally came out and hit the
world. Yay, congratulations.
That's just a remarkable feat. Not one, but two memoirs.
(06:59):
And I know when you were last onthe podcast, I think kind of
where we left off was this rejection from your biological
father, kind of feeling like it was open-ended, but leaning
towards rejection. And I'm, I'm not going to ask
you to give the whole book away because as I said, she does dive
much deeper in in the book. But what has happened with your
(07:23):
biological father since we last spoke?
I would love to say that we havethis wonderful friendship and,
and growing desire to get to know each other on a deeper
level, but unfortunately that isnot the case.
I have really gotten nowhere as far as building relationship
with my biological father. It has been a very, very slow
(07:48):
process. His family has been wonderful.
They have been attempting to, you know, reach out on a holiday
and say, hey, you guys can come if you'd like.
You know, I, Chris, this past Christmas, an aunt and a cousin
reached out to a gathering that he was not at, but you know,
some of the family members were.But I I dare say that
(08:09):
disappointingly, there really has not been any progress with
my biological father and we are 3 1/2 years out now.
But I will add that I do feel like there have been some small
baby steps because this past summer my husband actually was
at an event that my biological father was at.
(08:30):
And of course he was like, Oh myGod, I'm here and your
biological father's here. And I was like, you had better
go up to him and introduce yourself.
So he did, and they kind of chatted for a little bit and I
don't know if meeting my husbandput more of a understanding of
the fact that I'm like a real person with like this family in
this package. So that was in the fall.
(08:52):
In this past Christmas, we got aChristmas card and it was
addressed to my husband and myself.
And I had gotten a Christmas card, as I talk about in the
book, the year prior to myself. But this year, it was to my
husband and I, and it actually included a gift card in some
very kind words. And I was beside myself.
(09:13):
I did feel like it was a major step, like major progress to
address the Christmas card now to my husband and myself, like
acknowledging that I'm a woman with a family and the gift
inside. I mean, I don't even care if it
was like a little piece of paperat this point.
It was a gift. And for me, it was his way of
(09:34):
saying how difficult all of thishas been.
But that doesn't mean he's not thinking and, you know, wishing
he had the way forward, if you will.
And at the end of his gesture, it said something to the effect
of because he goes to Florida for the winter.
And it said something to the effect of maybe we can get
together upon my return or something to that effect.
(09:56):
And I try not to hang my hat on those words because he has said
things like that in the past. But that coupled with the fact
that his family has been trying and making an attempt, I do feel
in my heart of hearts that something will transpire.
I don't know that it'll be anything enormous and epic, but
(10:18):
I do feel like maybe more conversations will be had at
some point. One of the things I was really
struck by in your book is is when you share some of the
things that he wrote to you and that you wrote to him.
And I think sometimes we paint these rejections as very black
and white and like, it's a blatant, like, I don't want to
(10:41):
talk to you, stay out of my life, that kind of thing.
He's pretty cordial in his communication with you.
And I'm curious if that has madethe rejection harder in some
ways because it's like the doorsalways a little bit open, but
then it's it's taken a long timeto get to this point.
(11:03):
Agreed. Agreed.
And that's a great question because obviously in writing the
story and then when you go through editing, you're like
rereading the story 100,000 times.
And every time I would reread those letters that were from a
year or two prior, they had likeso much hope to them.
Like I was like, wow, something's really going to
(11:24):
happen here. These are very hopeful.
And I, of course, convinced myself that he said those things
because he meant those things. And then it's that inner critic
that comes out after we say themthat tears us down and sets us
back, right. So I would convince myself like,
OK, he wouldn't have said those things if he didn't really mean
those things. So somewhere deep down inside
(11:46):
there, there is a man who's justas curious as I am, and it's
just going to take longer for him to scratch his way to the
surface. And I agree.
In fact, I agree so much that I have kind of described my book
is a love story because it does feel like that, you know, it's
not like this big, you know, grandiose love story about
(12:06):
father meeting a daughter. But just the way we communicated
back and forth, there was just like so much hope for a loving
relationship to bloom. So I know exactly what you mean
when you say, and I do use the, you know, the things that are
quoted in there are verbatim theway that it all unfolded.
I wrote in real time with real emotion.
(12:29):
Like I said, sometimes I had to walk away from it, but I didn't
want to tell the story in hindsight.
I very much wanted to tell it asit was happening because it was
important for me. One of my biggest goals as a
writer for that book was I wanted all of our people in our
community to understand that it is a roller coaster. 1 chapter
(12:52):
sounds like a love story and it's beautiful.
And I'm sharing these letters back and forth.
And the next chapter I'm taking a complete nosedive and and
spiraling and I don't know what to think.
And won't somebody love me and won't somebody choose me?
And then the next chapter I'm back up again.
And I really thought that it wasimportant to do this journey
that justice. And even at the end of the book,
(13:15):
it's the same feeling. You just don't know what's
around the next corner. You just have to be open for.
In fact, one of my favorite lines or things I say in the
book is I'm having a conversation with my therapist
and we talk about, you know, does it ever get any better?
And she says to me, no, Jill, itdoesn't get better, but it does
(13:35):
get different. And I mean, that's just is the
epitome of this journey, right? I'm sure you can relate to that.
Absolutely. And I was also really struck by,
I mean, he doesn't say he's kindof a man of few words, but
reading between the lines and even just reading what he does
say, it sounds like he was pretty profoundly affected by
(14:01):
you reaching out. And this information too, Has
writing this book giving you anysense of empathy for his side of
the story? I think definitely his, not only
his, but everybody's, my raised father's, all the players
involved. You know, I, I, I'm pretty
(14:24):
convinced that more people knew the story than are letting on.
However, I'm also aware of the fact that it's my perspective,
right, that's driving my story in creating the story in my
head. And that there is in fact a
chance that many of these peoplehad no clue, including him, you
know, and even if he had, let's just say he had an inkling or a
(14:48):
clue, 50 years is a lot of time to go by to not be thinking
about something, to really, to really be thinking about it the
way that I am, right? So I just, I just have
compassion for the different perspectives here.
I truly do. I and I truly, and I mean that
(15:10):
with all of my heart. I think a lot of that also comes
from you and your podcasts and all of the people out there and
hearing so many variables and somany perspectives and sides of
stories to understand. You know, it is, Can you
imagine? I can't imagine somebody coming
to me with this news. Now I, my husband and I have
(15:32):
joked, you know, like if this hewas in the service, what would
happen if somebody stepped forward and said that, you know,
he was their father. And I was like, Oh my God, I
would be dying to meet her. And my daughters were like, Oh,
my God, we would want to be, youknow, And it's like, but we have
to remember. But it's also different times.
And it's just not like it was when our parents were younger
and everything was a secret or swept under the rug.
(15:53):
It's just things are so different.
And it's so hard to remember that when you're trying to be
respectful of what is happening in somebody else's mind.
Absolutely. One of the things, you know,
Speaking of this empathy and compassion for everyone in the
story is your book really does embrace that dialectical
(16:16):
thinking where more than one thing can be true or two things
can be true at once. I know you had a very
complicated your father, you're raised father was abusive.
And then to read in the book that he actually didn't.
(16:37):
And hopefully this isn't too much of A spoiler, so I'll take
it out if you want me to. But that he didn't think that
any of his children were biologically related to him was
really heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking to read
that. And obviously, it does not
excuse anything that he did or any of the choices that he's
(17:00):
made in his life. But just having that it, it
gave, it made me feel compassionfor him where the first time
that we talked, I really just felt anger towards him, you
know, for, for abusing his children.
And then to learn that maybe he was carrying a lot of pain
around the fact that, you know, he had raised these children
(17:23):
that your mother had told him, like this child isn't yours.
And then the child was your brother, Eric mentioned in the
book is his child, but he'd gonehis whole life not believing.
That was just so painful. Hearing you, hearing you tell me
that part of the story bag is literally sending shivers of my
(17:44):
spine. And you're right, I try.
I do try to. I don't try to.
I do have compassion because I can't imagine being so tattered
and torn in my soul that somebody could tell me those
things about my children and at the time make the, you know,
choice. That I'm not going to tell these
children because they need me and I'm their father and I don't
(18:08):
want to hurt them because their mother is already hurting all of
us. And to think, I can't imagine.
I can't imagine looking at my own children who I believe are
mine. I mean I gave birth to them, but
I mean of being a male and thinking that.
And and like I say in the book, I I couldn't understand why, you
(18:32):
know, like when I emancipated myself when I was younger, my
parents signed right off like I like nothing.
Okay, bye, bye. And when my father was estranged
from my oldest brother, who is his clone, that he could be so
far removed. But of course, if you had had
those seeds planted in your head, I, I, I do, I have a lot
of compassion for him. He was an alcoholic who was
(18:54):
trying to drink away all of those feelings and those truths
and those lies. And you're right, it does not
justify how he treated me as a child, but it certainly makes me
understand. Yeah, yeah.
So well said. Well, I think the overarching
theme of your book is breaking generational cycles.
(19:18):
We don't have to adhere to the patterns that have preceded us
in our lives. And this is something that we
talk about a lot in our community and I highlighted in
the book here, and this is in the introduction, you say I have
forever been agitated by the phrase.
It runs in the family as if it were simply fact, a life
(19:42):
sentence with no room for change.
Yes, it runs in my family. And I've decided this is where
it runs out. I love that.
Why do you think that this themeof generational cycles,
generational shame, pattern breaking is so resonant in our
community? Absolutely.
(20:05):
So, you know, The thing is, is even when I released my first
memoir, which was prior to my DNA discovery, I was astounded
by the number of people who reached out to me and, you know,
held up the me to hand when talking about abuse and domestic
violence and lies and cover ups.And people I would have never
(20:29):
guessed, you know, from my community or my own family
reaching out and saying, yes, this happened.
And oh, my goodness, this that. And when I started writing my
DNA memoir, I had no idea that what was really bestowed upon me
was a quest of ancestral healing.
And I mean that quite literally.The irony of this whole
(20:53):
situation is my grandmother who raised me, who is my person, the
best person who was ever in my life for me for my first 3
decades of life is not even my grandmother.
But the healing that I am doing is for her because she lived
(21:14):
through her own NPE experience. She lived through terrible,
terrible things as a wife and asa mother and as a sister.
And as I began to kind of heal and process everything that was
happening to me, I felt like I was paying homage to my
(21:37):
grandmother, who had been suppressed and unable to heal
from all of these things. I mean, to the point that I was
like, literally going to, you know, the cemetery and praying
to her and saying, like, I'm doing this for us, I'm doing
this for my children, this, this, this stops here kind of
business. And it just felt so important
(22:00):
and so liberating. And I think that, and I'm not
that's meant to say that everybody's going to go digging
and find like all these family, family secrets.
But in my. Case There were a bunch.
There are a bunch that are not even mentioned in the new book
because they're not my story to tell.
But I feel like it's just like what we said about the other
(22:20):
things in that, you know, it's what makes us human when we when
we see that other people and other families have these same
dynamics. The difference is our generation
is concerned about healing. We're concerned about being
vocal and stopping things that, you know, are of no good for us
(22:42):
and the future generations. And so we are willing to to say
what what is call a spade a spade and say let's stop it,
let's heal it, let's forgive it,let's move on from it.
And thank God for that. Thank God for that, you know.
Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's so many of these people
that I speak to are committed tonot perpetuating secrets and
(23:05):
shame. And the fact that that was
basically the theme of your bookmade absolute sense to me
because that is the overarching theme of of what we live and and
what we hope to stop. I mean, there is even a chapter
in the book. And again, I, I don't want to
give huge spoilers to you, but you probably recall reading the
(23:26):
chapter where I throw myself under the bus about something,
you know, shaky in my own marriage.
And, you know, I had to go to myhusband for permission to share
that chapter. And I had to have a conversation
with my grown adult daughters about what was going to be in
there. And I could get choked up just
thinking about it right now. But just writing that chapter
(23:49):
elicited family conversations that needed to be had.
And I'm so proud of myself for having those conversations and
for helping other people to see what those conversations can do
for moving forward. And I hope, I hope that being so
honest about my own life also shows my parents that I
(24:11):
understand. Yeah, right.
It's it's normalizing what it isto be human.
Exactly. I mean, when we just can't think
that it can't happen to us because it can't.
I didn't want to just preach, OK, You know, let's tell the
truth. Let's all just talk about it and
heal from it without saying, hey, look, I had to do some of
(24:33):
my own healing and forgiveness work within my own family
construct. You know, nobody, nobody gets a
free pass. No, I'm going to go through
something. Right.
The next question that I, I really wanted to ask you was, of
course, the, and this isn't selfish, but you've talked about
(24:54):
like listening to podcasts and hearing these stories.
And one of the things and, and really that your story is not
that big of a deal kind of in the grand scheme of things.
But one of the things which I want to say is not true story is
a big deal in your life. But I know exactly what you mean
(25:18):
is, is it's common. It is common, It's not unique,
you know, and, and, and one of the things that you mentioned
was specifically that the way that you were conceived by a
neighbor, basically somebody that you knew in in your life as
a child is actually a relativelycommon scenario.
(25:39):
And I actually like the way thatyou put that.
Like my story isn't that big of a deal because again, you're
normalizing what it is to be human.
These things happen. It's not great for us to find
out this way. And but at the same time, we're
not alone when we. Go through it exactly.
More common than we think, correct?
Yeah. So one of the things that you
(26:02):
you said around that kind of section, though, was that some
people have said that your suspicions lessened the blow
quote, lessened the blow of yourdiscovery.
Because you had always kind kindof wondered since your mom made
(26:23):
that sort of angry proclamation and then walked it back, that
the fact that you maybe always wondered lessened the blow of
your discovery. And I'm curious if you agree
with that, do you think that it it was less devastating to you
(26:44):
because it was a question in theback of your mind?
That's a loaded question. I guess being 3 1/2 years out
now, I could definitely say wholeheartedly that it did not
lessen the blow to know my worldwas flipped upside down, inside
(27:05):
out, right side up, as I say in the book, and it's still on the
spiral or tilt. So no, it didn't lessen the
blow. I appreciate that I had the
inkling in hindsight because hadmy mother not said that or gave
me a name that day, I probably would have never had the
(27:26):
suspicions, right? So the fact that that seed was
planted helped, but it didn't lessen the blow because the
identity crisis is so real and palpable that it didn't even
matter. I mean, I think there are there
are points in the story where I talk about the fact that I get
(27:48):
that information when I'm little.
But as I'm growing up and livingnext door to these people, I
never once like looked out the window and was like, Gee, could
that be my family? That's the people my mom was
talking about. I never even made that
connection. And even later in life, when I
like joked with a cousin when I saw them at a party, I'm like,
Hey, you know, you, you could berelated to me.
(28:09):
Like, I'm like thinking of like,you know, like distant cousins.
I'm not thinking like related tome, like, oh, your grandparents
are my freaking grandparents, right?
Like totally. I did not understand it when I
was given the information, therefore it did not.
It did nothing more than leave an itch.
Yes, but I would definitely say that I couldn't believe like
(28:33):
even when I go to my brother's that I was raised with, right?
And they're like, wait a minute,we kind of thought you already
knew that, you know, and you know, no, I didn't.
And then I think about the conversation that I had to have
with my older brother when he found out that my dad didn't
even think he was his dad. And I had to talk that through
(28:53):
with him. You know what I mean?
Like, that's also an identity crisis and.
It's. Like holy cow, you know this is
what 1 lie can do, or three liesin our case, right?
And again, we had the factor of we did have a an NPE brother who
(29:14):
was a known NPE. So if his was such a public
thing, why would we really thinkthat about ourselves?
You know, No, it did not lessen.It didn't lessen the blow, but
it prepared me for the hit. Oh, that's such a good way of
putting it. I was really curious about that
because in talking to so many people, there are many ways that
(29:39):
we arrive to our DNA surprises. There's people like me, I did
not know, completely surprised, but I agree with you.
And you know, maybe somebody else listening out there might
feel differently too, but getting the actual results,
getting that confirmation is very different than having some
(30:02):
possibility float in your mind. Absolutely.
Because even after I got my results right, I did so many
mental gymnastics to say that's not real, that even though I'm
holding it in my hand on my phone, I can see the results.
I was still making it not add up.
(30:23):
And I can only imagine that whenyou get that information and
there is no confirmation, it's just kind of a throwaway thing
from and in your case, from somebody that's not necessarily
a reliable narrator. It's easy to dismiss it, make
other things make sense. Like you said, your brother was
an NPE, like if, if he was an NPE and we knew, obviously I
(30:45):
would know if I was, it's reallyeasy.
So I feel like that, that idea of, of having it in your mind,
lessen the flow. I, I just, when I read that, I
was like, gosh, that that seems invalidating to the experience
that you've had. Yeah, true.
And and at different points, I probably would have answered
that question differently, to behonest with you, because there
(31:08):
are some there. I guess it's almost like not
survivor's guilt, but guilt. Like sometimes when I hear
stories such as yours where people that didn't have a
freaking inkling, I kind of liketell myself, well, geez, you
should be thankful. At least you kind of had a hunch
buried weight, even if it was buried deep, deep inside and you
didn't want to believe it, it was kind of there.
At least your mother kind of gave you that seed, right?
(31:30):
But then if you think too about we Fast forward in my book a
little bit more where I do end up now I've populated to the
family tree of my next door neighbors.
OK, I know because my mother hadgiven me the name.
Like, OK, there's no doubt aboutit, this story is real, you
know, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then, then I get to the
point where I do decide I'm going to ask my biological
(31:53):
father for an actual paternity test.
I work through that with my therapist as well.
And I'm thinking the whole time that I'm asking him for this
paternity test that I'm doing itbecause he needs it, right?
Like I'm the one who saw the ancestry results.
He's not on ancestry. So he doesn't even see that I
connected to his tree. Now, I did show his sons who
(32:15):
could have very well told him like we saw it, you know, she's
there, but he was not connected to me exactly in any way, shape
or form. So I, I request this paternity
test thinking maybe he'll be able to really embrace me more
if he can really just see it in black and white.
And then, you know, my therapistsays those words to me, which
is, Jill, did you ever think that you needed the paternity
(32:40):
test? Did you ever stop to think for a
second that that piece of paper is going to be the only thing
that is actually going to show your actual birth father?
It's going to be the only evidence of who your father is
in real life. And I was like holy shit she is
100% right. This.
(33:02):
Yes I did want it for him, but Ithink I wanted and needed it for
me even more. That paper is like gold.
Yeah, I think that that's something that that many in our
community can resonate with the need for that proof that that
paper, that acknowledgement. I mean, you hear a lot of people
(33:22):
get their birth certificates updated and things like that
because it's just so, so important to have that evidence.
I mean, I, I talk about that too.
It's been on my To Do List for awhile.
But to really dig in and get my birth certificate updated
because for me it's the only evidence.
(33:43):
It's the only thing that would tie me to my biological father.
Because if you do any other sortof Pi work or something on the
Internet, my dad that raised me is the one I grew up with and is
how you know that is who it's going to look like.
I'm biologically related. To and I think about it for
historical sake, right? I mean, not asking for like, get
(34:05):
your name off my birthday, you know?
This is what I'm. Talking about like moving
forward in history, I'm not partof this family.
I'm actually part of this familyand let the record show what is
right. Absolutely.
You mentioned your your brothers.
How are things with them? Your new found biological
(34:27):
brothers. They're awful at a snail's pace.
I don't want to discount the fact that we have established a
bit of a relationship and I'm sofreaking grateful for that.
So I think in the book, the lastthing I leave off with was last
Saint Patrick's Day. And then I do go to the family
reunion in the summer. It's a like a week long event
(34:48):
for them. And my biological father and I
were not there on the same day, but he went the day after me.
And I was invited to my biological father's sisters
house for Christmas this year because a cousin was up that I I
have connected with. They were at these things, you
know, but for example, my older brother has a daughter who lives
(35:10):
here in my town, who, you know, she's very social in my town.
So am I 3 1/2 years. I still haven't met my niece.
I don't know that she even has adesire to meet me.
I have met her brothers, which are my nephews, but I have not
met her for whatever reason is going on.
I know she's very close with hergrandmother, which would be my
(35:31):
half brother's mother. So I don't know if there's like
a protection thing there. Although the boy's mother, she
has kind of reached out. I think she's OK with the fact
that I have, you know, found andtold my story.
And I think she even has curiosities and would like to
talk someday. And I'm, I'm basically open to
sitting down and talking with anybody.
(35:52):
But as far as the boys are going, it's it's there, but it's
very slow and it's still very guarded, I think because of
where their dad is. Now you you mentioned that you
can write the story. You do leave your story
open-ended. Where are you now with
everything and where do you hopeit will go?
(36:14):
Oh, I love this question becausewe just spoke about this in our
third Thursday, not this past month, but the month before, you
know, and this goes kind of along with that quote of it
doesn't get better, it gets different, right?
Because we talked about how 3 1/2 years out, things are much
more idle. They don't have a sense of
(36:35):
urgency or curiosity like they did in those maybe that initial
year or even 2. Now I have more days where I can
go not feeling fixated on it or thinking about it, but there
will still be days that will popup and suck me right back in
into why not? How do I do this?
(36:57):
Should I be making the move? Am I the one that's supposed to
keep trying until this happens? Because I've basically told him
time and again in some way, shape or form, you know, via
e-mail through his sons or whatever, I'm here and I'm ready
when you are. I'm going to sit back.
I don't want to push you or pressure you.
You know, you let me know when you're ready.
(37:19):
But on the same token, I'm a very spiritual person.
I believe in manifestation. I believe in helping to write
our own stories. And I do feel like I also don't
want to feel like I've thrown inthe towel or I've given up
because I haven't. My hope is very much still
there. I would like him to sit down at
a table and meet my husband and his two granddaughters and just
(37:42):
acknowledge that they are of himand his family.
And even if it were one meeting,just to say, you know, I would
like for my daughters to be ableto go out in the community and
if they run into this cousin of theirs, be able to say hi in a
cordial way and not like turn their head.
And I know he's, he's kind of sort of got to be the one to
(38:06):
give the green light for that, if you will.
Nobody's saying that. But let's face it, that's what's
kind of going on here, right? But I, I do feel like he's
warming. But 3 1/2 years out, my need and
my longing for it are definitelydialed down.
They're not gone, they never will be.
But I think one of the biggest things was that this journey of
(38:30):
longing to be long, which has been my whole entire life with
my raised family and now with mybiological family, has taught me
to love and belong with this little family that I have.
Like I have never understood that and cherished that more
(38:51):
than I do right now, this year in this exact time.
And for me, I know deep down in my heart of hearts that is
enough. It will be enough for me.
And if they come along, that's just gravy, and that'll be a
nice little bonus. But I really have what I've been
searching for my whole life right here, right now.
(39:13):
And I'm so thankful for that. And I'm so thankful that this
journey in searching for my biological father really helped
remind me of that for sure. That's really well stated, well
put. One of the quotes that really
stood out to me was when your friend told you your book is
(39:36):
going to help far more people than it is going to hurt.
I loved that. I loved that because, you know,
having the podcast and getting to talk to so many people and
them sharing their stories and you know, on a personal note,
sharing my story and even the little introduction to my
(39:59):
episode every week where I'm acknowledging that this thing
happened to me. You know, I am protective of my
parents and my family. And for a long time it was in
the back of my mind like, is this hurting them to do this?
And so to read that, first of all, in my case, I, I don't
(40:19):
think I'm hurting them. I I think they're, they're
working through it, but. To read that was really freeing
because it's that reminder of the difference and and the
support that you're lending to other people who have been
through similar experiences far outweighs any other fallout that
(40:42):
might happen as a result of telling our stories.
Absolutely. I wanted to ask you, how has
putting your story down on paperhelped you?
And then, you know, I'm curious what you've been hearing from
people who have read it. Great question.
So first of all, let me just say, writing the story I
(41:06):
recommend for everybody. I'm not talking about people,
you know, you don't have to publish the book, but writing
and working through your feelings is I was writing things
I didn't know where these words were coming from half the time.
Like I was like writing my own healing and, and, and, and
stirring up forgiveness and, andthings that I didn't know I was
(41:29):
capable of and that were deep down inside.
So I do recommend, whether it bethrough journaling or like Eve
Sturgis does the processing journal.
I did that with her for one round.
Loved every bit of it. I still do journal, but telling
the story has been extremely cathartic.
And I think that, you know, because I had had a lot of epic
(41:51):
episodes even prior to this, like I, you know, I, I got
sober, I had a weight loss journey, I had cancer, I had
this traumatic childhood. I basically said, look, there's
no way I'm not supposed to be talking about this stuff.
There's just too many things. But you're right, it comes back
to that quote and and I, I took that quote very, very literally,
(42:15):
Alexis, I said to myself, how many people am I going to piss
off? Let me, let me count.
And I got to like 3 or 4 people who could actually genuinely be
pissed off that I was sharing the story, OK.
Or who have a right to be genuinely pissed off that I was
sharing any of these stories. And then I thought about the
(42:35):
thousands of people out there who have been abused, who need
to get sober, who have been through cancer, who have found
out that they really didn't belong to their family.
And I thought, she's exactly right.
It doesn't matter if I piss off a few people.
If I piss them off enough that they want to exit my life or
they don't want anything to do with me, then that's their loss.
(42:58):
And that brings me to the other part of your question, in that I
still have. My book has been out since
December and I still have not heard any feedback from my
biological side as to the take on what they think about it.
I don't know if my biological father read it.
I don't know if he will. I don't know if my brothers have
(43:20):
or my aunts or my cousins. The last I checked in with my
cousin, she just hadn't gotten to it yet and, you know, was
hoping to do so. And of course, I'm dying of
curiosity because I think I did it.
I wrote the story in a very tactful manner and I really, as
much as I honored everybody else's perspective, I really
just want them to see mine and understand I'm not coming at
(43:44):
anybody. I'm not trying to hurt anybody.
I'm not trying to blame anybody.I'm just trying to say this is
life and it happened and now here I am, you know, So I don't
know that my story coming out has truly hurt anybody over
here, the key players. Because I would like to think
(44:07):
that my book has freed my raisedfather from having to carry
those secrets anymore. And I hope that it has freed my
biological father from having to, you know, exit his lifetime
having to say, well, I didn't reach out to her.
I didn't talk to that girl. I didn't give her the time of
day. You know, he did sit down with
me. And if that's all I ever get, he
(44:30):
at least can know that he gave me that, right.
So I just feel like, well, people might be maybe a little
embarrassed initially, a little shamed initially.
I hope that nobody is hurt, but that everybody becomes healed.
(44:52):
I don't want to go into any any more spoilers other than to say
you're you're really fantastic storyteller, writer, author, and
for people that have had this experience, I think it this book
will definitely validate a lot of the feelings that that we
experience when you outline likethe the I don't know how many
(45:16):
were in the list, but like 10 feelings that you realized
didn't make your story a special.
You know when you're. Listening to the podcast of of
not being able to look at yourself in the mirror, of
having an out of body experience.
Like you kind of go through all of that and that's really going
to help people, far more people than it could have possibly
(45:36):
hurt. Where can people find your book
if they are interested in reading When You Shake the
Family tree? Come on, thanks for letting me
put in a little plug. So my book is available on
Amazon. It is under my pen name, which
is Margo Reilly. I write under a pen name, not
(45:57):
for anonymity, but just out of respect to the players.
Obviously everybody's name is changed in in the story, but
both of my memoirs are on Amazonand they are again under Mark
O'Reilly. But if you go to my website,
which is just being jill.com, all the information about my
books is there. You can even get the 1st chapter
free to my latest memoir if you want to kind of read it and see
(46:19):
if it's for you. I believe the introduction and
chapter one are available once you subscribe at the bottom.
And I don't send any daunting things out.
You know, it's just so that you can be informed about my books
and, and, you know, and if I putthem on sale or anything like
that, you might get a notification.
But yeah, just being jill.com isthe place to go.
(46:39):
Awesome, Jill, thank you so muchfor joining me for an update and
just sharing your progress sincewe first spoke.
I will put the link to your bookand your website in the show
notes for anyone who's interested, and I'll see you on
the next third Thursday. You sure will.
Thank you for your time and thank you for allowing me to
(47:01):
come and give this update. I love hearing the continued
stories and progress of of the people that you spend your time
with. I think it's fascinating to hear
our similarities and our differences and I really
appreciate it. I appreciate what you do.
Thank you, Alexis. Thank you.
Thanks again to Jill for joiningme.
If you want to read her book When You Shake the Family Tree,
(47:23):
pick it up at Just Being jill.com.
And if you have adna surprise that you'd like to share, please
submit your story at dnasurprises.com.
Finally, be sure to join me overat patreon.com/DNA Surprises for
early ad free access to episodes.
Until next time, this episode ofDNA Surprises was hosted,
(47:45):
produced, and edited by me, Alexis Ourselt.
It was mixed and mastered by Josh Ourselt of Siren Recording
Studios.
I'm not coming at anybody. I'm not trying to hurt anybody.
I'm not trying to blame anybody.I'm just trying to say this is
life and it happened, and now here I am, you know, So I don't
know that my story coming out has truly hurt anybody over
(00:20):
here, the key players. Because I would like to think
that my book has freed my raisedfather from having to carry
those secrets anymore. And I hope that it has freed my
biological father from having to, you know, exit his lifetime
having to say, well, I didn't reach out to her.
(00:40):
I didn't talk to that girl. I didn't give at the time of
day. You know, he did sit down with
me. And if that's all I ever get, he
at least can know that he gave me that right?
Welcome to DNA Surprises, a podcast that delves into the
world of unexpected DNA discoveries.
I'm your host, Alexis ourselves.In July 2021, my life took a
(01:05):
surprising turn when I found outthat I'm an N P/E, a person who
has experienced a non paternal event.
In other words, my biological father isn't who I thought he
was. Join me as we explore the
stories of NP, ES, adoptees, anddonor conceived people and their
(01:25):
families. Get ready to unravel the
astonishing journeys that begin with a simple DNA test.
This is DNA Surprises, hands down.
One of my favorite things about hosting this podcast is the
connections that I've made within this community.
From keeping in touch with guests to hosting the DNA
Surprise Retreat, to the specialgroup of folks who join our
(01:49):
third Thursday meetups, I'm so grateful for the connections
that I've formed. In this week's episode, I'm
joined by Jill, who first appeared on the podcast in
February of last year. She has since released her
second memoir, which is focused on her DNA Surprise.
She joined me to discuss all that's happened since she first
appeared on the podcast. We discussed some of my burning
(02:11):
questions around her book, When You Shake the Family Tree, as
well as where she's currently atwith her biological family.
You can find your copy of Jill'sbook at Just Being jill.com.
Thanks for joining me again, Jill.
Welcome to a special update episode of DNA Surprises.
I am joined today by Jill, who joined me.
(02:34):
Gosh, was it a year ago 2. Years ago, last February, 1 year
ago. Of course, we probably recorded
it a few months prior to the actual release, but it released
one year ago. That's right.
And when we last spoke, Jill waswriting a book.
She'd already written one, and then she was going to write
(02:54):
another. In the process of writing
another specifically about her DNA surprise.
And she has since released the book and there are even more
updates since we last spoke. And I'm really excited to get
into it. I've read the book, I have tons
of questions, and Jill joins us regularly on our third Thursday
(03:18):
call. So I've heard bits about the
things that have happened in herstory as it's progressed, but
the book really does dive a lot deeper into some of the things
that have happened. And so I'm really excited to to
dive in. Thank you for joining me again,
Jill. Thank you so much for having me
back. It's such a pleasure to be able
to come back and give you and your followers an update and
(03:40):
talk about what's happened. Yes, well, so let's just jump in
what happened after we last spoke.
Well, interesting you should saythat because I of course
listened to our episode this morning just to kind of give
myself a refresher. And one of the things that we
did leave off with was the hopesthat my book would be coming out
very soon after that episode launched or perhaps even when
(04:02):
that episode was launching last February.
And I realized, wow, that is exactly about the time I sat on
my book like an egg. I had to take a big pause and
break away from the project. That's the thing with writing
memoir is that, you know, it's such an emotional roller coaster
(04:23):
that there were many times throughout the project where I
would be in this big time writing mode and get a whole
bunch done. And then I'd hit something that
really struck a nerve and I would have to walk away for some
time. And sometimes those that could
be a couple days, sometimes thatturned into a couple of months.
And after our podcast, I can't remember a particular episode
(04:43):
that might have sent me back. But for some reason, I really
started procrastinating and I put the project away for a
little bit. And then before you know it,
spring was springing and I was like, Oh my gosh, I've got to
get this done. I had found somebody to help me
publish the book and they had given me a bit of a time frame
like, OK, this is when it could happen.
So I I treated myself as a second time memoir writer to a
(05:08):
lake house property for for fourdays where I locked myself in
sign. It was in this beautiful
lakefront community, but it was April here in Western New York.
So that's still quite a bit chilly and yucky for us.
And I wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote until that book was
done. And right about that exact time,
I was continuing to work with mytherapist and come to find out
(05:31):
the thing that was holding me back was I was afraid to write
the ending of my story. I was afraid in whatever tone I
ended that book would be what I would be willing or calling in
for myself or kind of putting, you know, a hard line in my
story. And then feel I felt like I was
(05:52):
going to have this feeling like it was coming to an end or that
was going to be it. And it took my therapist to walk
me through that and say, so you're the author, you get to
write the ending, you're going to leave it nice and open-ended,
and that's going to invite in whatever is supposed to come.
And so when I took that four dayhiatus from the world and
(06:13):
finished writing, that's exactlywhat I did.
I made sure that I wrote the story, you know, very detailed
to what was going on with all ofthe episodes that had been
happening, but also very open-ended so that there wasn't
closure or anything definitive. And so it got finished late last
spring of 2024. The editing process started
(06:35):
happening through the summer of 2024, got submitted to the
publishing company in the fall, and on December 12th of 2024,
When You Shake the Family Tree finally came out and hit the
world. Yay, congratulations.
That's just a remarkable feat. Not one, but two memoirs.
(06:59):
And I know when you were last onthe podcast, I think kind of
where we left off was this rejection from your biological
father, kind of feeling like it was open-ended, but leaning
towards rejection. And I'm, I'm not going to ask
you to give the whole book away because as I said, she does dive
much deeper in in the book. But what has happened with your
(07:23):
biological father since we last spoke?
I would love to say that we havethis wonderful friendship and,
and growing desire to get to know each other on a deeper
level, but unfortunately that isnot the case.
I have really gotten nowhere as far as building relationship
with my biological father. It has been a very, very slow
(07:48):
process. His family has been wonderful.
They have been attempting to, you know, reach out on a holiday
and say, hey, you guys can come if you'd like.
You know, I, Chris, this past Christmas, an aunt and a cousin
reached out to a gathering that he was not at, but you know,
some of the family members were.But I I dare say that
(08:09):
disappointingly, there really has not been any progress with
my biological father and we are 3 1/2 years out now.
But I will add that I do feel like there have been some small
baby steps because this past summer my husband actually was
at an event that my biological father was at.
(08:30):
And of course he was like, Oh myGod, I'm here and your
biological father's here. And I was like, you had better
go up to him and introduce yourself.
So he did, and they kind of chatted for a little bit and I
don't know if meeting my husbandput more of a understanding of
the fact that I'm like a real person with like this family in
this package. So that was in the fall.
(08:52):
In this past Christmas, we got aChristmas card and it was
addressed to my husband and myself.
And I had gotten a Christmas card, as I talk about in the
book, the year prior to myself. But this year, it was to my
husband and I, and it actually included a gift card in some
very kind words. And I was beside myself.
(09:13):
I did feel like it was a major step, like major progress to
address the Christmas card now to my husband and myself, like
acknowledging that I'm a woman with a family and the gift
inside. I mean, I don't even care if it
was like a little piece of paperat this point.
It was a gift. And for me, it was his way of
(09:34):
saying how difficult all of thishas been.
But that doesn't mean he's not thinking and, you know, wishing
he had the way forward, if you will.
And at the end of his gesture, it said something to the effect
of because he goes to Florida for the winter.
And it said something to the effect of maybe we can get
together upon my return or something to that effect.
(09:56):
And I try not to hang my hat on those words because he has said
things like that in the past. But that coupled with the fact
that his family has been trying and making an attempt, I do feel
in my heart of hearts that something will transpire.
I don't know that it'll be anything enormous and epic, but
(10:18):
I do feel like maybe more conversations will be had at
some point. One of the things I was really
struck by in your book is is when you share some of the
things that he wrote to you and that you wrote to him.
And I think sometimes we paint these rejections as very black
and white and like, it's a blatant, like, I don't want to
(10:41):
talk to you, stay out of my life, that kind of thing.
He's pretty cordial in his communication with you.
And I'm curious if that has madethe rejection harder in some
ways because it's like the doorsalways a little bit open, but
then it's it's taken a long timeto get to this point.
(11:03):
Agreed. Agreed.
And that's a great question because obviously in writing the
story and then when you go through editing, you're like
rereading the story 100,000 times.
And every time I would reread those letters that were from a
year or two prior, they had likeso much hope to them.
Like I was like, wow, something's really going to
(11:24):
happen here. These are very hopeful.
And I, of course, convinced myself that he said those things
because he meant those things. And then it's that inner critic
that comes out after we say themthat tears us down and sets us
back, right. So I would convince myself like,
OK, he wouldn't have said those things if he didn't really mean
those things. So somewhere deep down inside
(11:46):
there, there is a man who's justas curious as I am, and it's
just going to take longer for him to scratch his way to the
surface. And I agree.
In fact, I agree so much that I have kind of described my book
is a love story because it does feel like that, you know, it's
not like this big, you know, grandiose love story about
(12:06):
father meeting a daughter. But just the way we communicated
back and forth, there was just like so much hope for a loving
relationship to bloom. So I know exactly what you mean
when you say, and I do use the, you know, the things that are
quoted in there are verbatim theway that it all unfolded.
I wrote in real time with real emotion.
(12:29):
Like I said, sometimes I had to walk away from it, but I didn't
want to tell the story in hindsight.
I very much wanted to tell it asit was happening because it was
important for me. One of my biggest goals as a
writer for that book was I wanted all of our people in our
community to understand that it is a roller coaster. 1 chapter
(12:52):
sounds like a love story and it's beautiful.
And I'm sharing these letters back and forth.
And the next chapter I'm taking a complete nosedive and and
spiraling and I don't know what to think.
And won't somebody love me and won't somebody choose me?
And then the next chapter I'm back up again.
And I really thought that it wasimportant to do this journey
that justice. And even at the end of the book,
(13:15):
it's the same feeling. You just don't know what's
around the next corner. You just have to be open for.
In fact, one of my favorite lines or things I say in the
book is I'm having a conversation with my therapist
and we talk about, you know, does it ever get any better?
And she says to me, no, Jill, itdoesn't get better, but it does
(13:35):
get different. And I mean, that's just is the
epitome of this journey, right? I'm sure you can relate to that.
Absolutely. And I was also really struck by,
I mean, he doesn't say he's kindof a man of few words, but
reading between the lines and even just reading what he does
say, it sounds like he was pretty profoundly affected by
(14:01):
you reaching out. And this information too, Has
writing this book giving you anysense of empathy for his side of
the story? I think definitely his, not only
his, but everybody's, my raised father's, all the players
involved. You know, I, I, I'm pretty
(14:24):
convinced that more people knew the story than are letting on.
However, I'm also aware of the fact that it's my perspective,
right, that's driving my story in creating the story in my
head. And that there is in fact a
chance that many of these peoplehad no clue, including him, you
know, and even if he had, let's just say he had an inkling or a
(14:48):
clue, 50 years is a lot of time to go by to not be thinking
about something, to really, to really be thinking about it the
way that I am, right? So I just, I just have
compassion for the different perspectives here.
I truly do. I and I truly, and I mean that
(15:10):
with all of my heart. I think a lot of that also comes
from you and your podcasts and all of the people out there and
hearing so many variables and somany perspectives and sides of
stories to understand. You know, it is, Can you
imagine? I can't imagine somebody coming
to me with this news. Now I, my husband and I have
(15:32):
joked, you know, like if this hewas in the service, what would
happen if somebody stepped forward and said that, you know,
he was their father. And I was like, Oh my God, I
would be dying to meet her. And my daughters were like, Oh,
my God, we would want to be, youknow, And it's like, but we have
to remember. But it's also different times.
And it's just not like it was when our parents were younger
and everything was a secret or swept under the rug.
(15:53):
It's just things are so different.
And it's so hard to remember that when you're trying to be
respectful of what is happening in somebody else's mind.
Absolutely. One of the things, you know,
Speaking of this empathy and compassion for everyone in the
story is your book really does embrace that dialectical
(16:16):
thinking where more than one thing can be true or two things
can be true at once. I know you had a very
complicated your father, you're raised father was abusive.
And then to read in the book that he actually didn't.
(16:37):
And hopefully this isn't too much of A spoiler, so I'll take
it out if you want me to. But that he didn't think that
any of his children were biologically related to him was
really heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking to read
that. And obviously, it does not
excuse anything that he did or any of the choices that he's
(17:00):
made in his life. But just having that it, it
gave, it made me feel compassionfor him where the first time
that we talked, I really just felt anger towards him, you
know, for, for abusing his children.
And then to learn that maybe he was carrying a lot of pain
around the fact that, you know, he had raised these children
(17:23):
that your mother had told him, like this child isn't yours.
And then the child was your brother, Eric mentioned in the
book is his child, but he'd gonehis whole life not believing.
That was just so painful. Hearing you, hearing you tell me
that part of the story bag is literally sending shivers of my
(17:44):
spine. And you're right, I try.
I do try to. I don't try to.
I do have compassion because I can't imagine being so tattered
and torn in my soul that somebody could tell me those
things about my children and at the time make the, you know,
choice. That I'm not going to tell these
children because they need me and I'm their father and I don't
(18:08):
want to hurt them because their mother is already hurting all of
us. And to think, I can't imagine.
I can't imagine looking at my own children who I believe are
mine. I mean I gave birth to them, but
I mean of being a male and thinking that.
And and like I say in the book, I I couldn't understand why, you
(18:32):
know, like when I emancipated myself when I was younger, my
parents signed right off like I like nothing.
Okay, bye, bye. And when my father was estranged
from my oldest brother, who is his clone, that he could be so
far removed. But of course, if you had had
those seeds planted in your head, I, I, I do, I have a lot
of compassion for him. He was an alcoholic who was
(18:54):
trying to drink away all of those feelings and those truths
and those lies. And you're right, it does not
justify how he treated me as a child, but it certainly makes me
understand. Yeah, yeah.
So well said. Well, I think the overarching
theme of your book is breaking generational cycles.
(19:18):
We don't have to adhere to the patterns that have preceded us
in our lives. And this is something that we
talk about a lot in our community and I highlighted in
the book here, and this is in the introduction, you say I have
forever been agitated by the phrase.
It runs in the family as if it were simply fact, a life
(19:42):
sentence with no room for change.
Yes, it runs in my family. And I've decided this is where
it runs out. I love that.
Why do you think that this themeof generational cycles,
generational shame, pattern breaking is so resonant in our
community? Absolutely.
(20:05):
So, you know, The thing is, is even when I released my first
memoir, which was prior to my DNA discovery, I was astounded
by the number of people who reached out to me and, you know,
held up the me to hand when talking about abuse and domestic
violence and lies and cover ups.And people I would have never
(20:29):
guessed, you know, from my community or my own family
reaching out and saying, yes, this happened.
And oh, my goodness, this that. And when I started writing my
DNA memoir, I had no idea that what was really bestowed upon me
was a quest of ancestral healing.
And I mean that quite literally.The irony of this whole
(20:53):
situation is my grandmother who raised me, who is my person, the
best person who was ever in my life for me for my first 3
decades of life is not even my grandmother.
But the healing that I am doing is for her because she lived
(21:14):
through her own NPE experience. She lived through terrible,
terrible things as a wife and asa mother and as a sister.
And as I began to kind of heal and process everything that was
happening to me, I felt like I was paying homage to my
(21:37):
grandmother, who had been suppressed and unable to heal
from all of these things. I mean, to the point that I was
like, literally going to, you know, the cemetery and praying
to her and saying, like, I'm doing this for us, I'm doing
this for my children, this, this, this stops here kind of
business. And it just felt so important
(22:00):
and so liberating. And I think that, and I'm not
that's meant to say that everybody's going to go digging
and find like all these family, family secrets.
But in my. Case There were a bunch.
There are a bunch that are not even mentioned in the new book
because they're not my story to tell.
But I feel like it's just like what we said about the other
(22:20):
things in that, you know, it's what makes us human when we when
we see that other people and other families have these same
dynamics. The difference is our generation
is concerned about healing. We're concerned about being
vocal and stopping things that, you know, are of no good for us
(22:42):
and the future generations. And so we are willing to to say
what what is call a spade a spade and say let's stop it,
let's heal it, let's forgive it,let's move on from it.
And thank God for that. Thank God for that, you know.
Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's so many of these people
that I speak to are committed tonot perpetuating secrets and
(23:05):
shame. And the fact that that was
basically the theme of your bookmade absolute sense to me
because that is the overarching theme of of what we live and and
what we hope to stop. I mean, there is even a chapter
in the book. And again, I, I don't want to
give huge spoilers to you, but you probably recall reading the
(23:26):
chapter where I throw myself under the bus about something,
you know, shaky in my own marriage.
And, you know, I had to go to myhusband for permission to share
that chapter. And I had to have a conversation
with my grown adult daughters about what was going to be in
there. And I could get choked up just
thinking about it right now. But just writing that chapter
(23:49):
elicited family conversations that needed to be had.
And I'm so proud of myself for having those conversations and
for helping other people to see what those conversations can do
for moving forward. And I hope, I hope that being so
honest about my own life also shows my parents that I
(24:11):
understand. Yeah, right.
It's it's normalizing what it isto be human.
Exactly. I mean, when we just can't think
that it can't happen to us because it can't.
I didn't want to just preach, OK, You know, let's tell the
truth. Let's all just talk about it and
heal from it without saying, hey, look, I had to do some of
(24:33):
my own healing and forgiveness work within my own family
construct. You know, nobody, nobody gets a
free pass. No, I'm going to go through
something. Right.
The next question that I, I really wanted to ask you was, of
course, the, and this isn't selfish, but you've talked about
(24:54):
like listening to podcasts and hearing these stories.
And one of the things and, and really that your story is not
that big of a deal kind of in the grand scheme of things.
But one of the things which I want to say is not true story is
a big deal in your life. But I know exactly what you mean
(25:18):
is, is it's common. It is common, It's not unique,
you know, and, and, and one of the things that you mentioned
was specifically that the way that you were conceived by a
neighbor, basically somebody that you knew in in your life as
a child is actually a relativelycommon scenario.
(25:39):
And I actually like the way thatyou put that.
Like my story isn't that big of a deal because again, you're
normalizing what it is to be human.
These things happen. It's not great for us to find
out this way. And but at the same time, we're
not alone when we. Go through it exactly.
More common than we think, correct?
Yeah. So one of the things that you
(26:02):
you said around that kind of section, though, was that some
people have said that your suspicions lessened the blow
quote, lessened the blow of yourdiscovery.
Because you had always kind kindof wondered since your mom made
(26:23):
that sort of angry proclamation and then walked it back, that
the fact that you maybe always wondered lessened the blow of
your discovery. And I'm curious if you agree
with that, do you think that it it was less devastating to you
(26:44):
because it was a question in theback of your mind?
That's a loaded question. I guess being 3 1/2 years out
now, I could definitely say wholeheartedly that it did not
lessen the blow to know my worldwas flipped upside down, inside
(27:05):
out, right side up, as I say in the book, and it's still on the
spiral or tilt. So no, it didn't lessen the
blow. I appreciate that I had the
inkling in hindsight because hadmy mother not said that or gave
me a name that day, I probably would have never had the
(27:26):
suspicions, right? So the fact that that seed was
planted helped, but it didn't lessen the blow because the
identity crisis is so real and palpable that it didn't even
matter. I mean, I think there are there
are points in the story where I talk about the fact that I get
(27:48):
that information when I'm little.
But as I'm growing up and livingnext door to these people, I
never once like looked out the window and was like, Gee, could
that be my family? That's the people my mom was
talking about. I never even made that
connection. And even later in life, when I
like joked with a cousin when I saw them at a party, I'm like,
Hey, you know, you, you could berelated to me.
(28:09):
Like, I'm like thinking of like,you know, like distant cousins.
I'm not thinking like related tome, like, oh, your grandparents
are my freaking grandparents, right?
Like totally. I did not understand it when I
was given the information, therefore it did not.
It did nothing more than leave an itch.
Yes, but I would definitely say that I couldn't believe like
(28:33):
even when I go to my brother's that I was raised with, right?
And they're like, wait a minute,we kind of thought you already
knew that, you know, and you know, no, I didn't.
And then I think about the conversation that I had to have
with my older brother when he found out that my dad didn't
even think he was his dad. And I had to talk that through
(28:53):
with him. You know what I mean?
Like, that's also an identity crisis and.
It's. Like holy cow, you know this is
what 1 lie can do, or three liesin our case, right?
And again, we had the factor of we did have a an NPE brother who
(29:14):
was a known NPE. So if his was such a public
thing, why would we really thinkthat about ourselves?
You know, No, it did not lessen.It didn't lessen the blow, but
it prepared me for the hit. Oh, that's such a good way of
putting it. I was really curious about that
because in talking to so many people, there are many ways that
(29:39):
we arrive to our DNA surprises. There's people like me, I did
not know, completely surprised, but I agree with you.
And you know, maybe somebody else listening out there might
feel differently too, but getting the actual results,
getting that confirmation is very different than having some
(30:02):
possibility float in your mind. Absolutely.
Because even after I got my results right, I did so many
mental gymnastics to say that's not real, that even though I'm
holding it in my hand on my phone, I can see the results.
I was still making it not add up.
(30:23):
And I can only imagine that whenyou get that information and
there is no confirmation, it's just kind of a throwaway thing
from and in your case, from somebody that's not necessarily
a reliable narrator. It's easy to dismiss it, make
other things make sense. Like you said, your brother was
an NPE, like if, if he was an NPE and we knew, obviously I
(30:45):
would know if I was, it's reallyeasy.
So I feel like that, that idea of, of having it in your mind,
lessen the flow. I, I just, when I read that, I
was like, gosh, that that seems invalidating to the experience
that you've had. Yeah, true.
And and at different points, I probably would have answered
that question differently, to behonest with you, because there
(31:08):
are some there. I guess it's almost like not
survivor's guilt, but guilt. Like sometimes when I hear
stories such as yours where people that didn't have a
freaking inkling, I kind of liketell myself, well, geez, you
should be thankful. At least you kind of had a hunch
buried weight, even if it was buried deep, deep inside and you
didn't want to believe it, it was kind of there.
At least your mother kind of gave you that seed, right?
(31:30):
But then if you think too about we Fast forward in my book a
little bit more where I do end up now I've populated to the
family tree of my next door neighbors.
OK, I know because my mother hadgiven me the name.
Like, OK, there's no doubt aboutit, this story is real, you
know, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then, then I get to the
point where I do decide I'm going to ask my biological
(31:53):
father for an actual paternity test.
I work through that with my therapist as well.
And I'm thinking the whole time that I'm asking him for this
paternity test that I'm doing itbecause he needs it, right?
Like I'm the one who saw the ancestry results.
He's not on ancestry. So he doesn't even see that I
connected to his tree. Now, I did show his sons who
(32:15):
could have very well told him like we saw it, you know, she's
there, but he was not connected to me exactly in any way, shape
or form. So I, I request this paternity
test thinking maybe he'll be able to really embrace me more
if he can really just see it in black and white.
And then, you know, my therapistsays those words to me, which
is, Jill, did you ever think that you needed the paternity
(32:40):
test? Did you ever stop to think for a
second that that piece of paper is going to be the only thing
that is actually going to show your actual birth father?
It's going to be the only evidence of who your father is
in real life. And I was like holy shit she is
100% right. This.
(33:02):
Yes I did want it for him, but Ithink I wanted and needed it for
me even more. That paper is like gold.
Yeah, I think that that's something that that many in our
community can resonate with the need for that proof that that
paper, that acknowledgement. I mean, you hear a lot of people
(33:22):
get their birth certificates updated and things like that
because it's just so, so important to have that evidence.
I mean, I, I talk about that too.
It's been on my To Do List for awhile.
But to really dig in and get my birth certificate updated
because for me it's the only evidence.
(33:43):
It's the only thing that would tie me to my biological father.
Because if you do any other sortof Pi work or something on the
Internet, my dad that raised me is the one I grew up with and is
how you know that is who it's going to look like.
I'm biologically related. To and I think about it for
historical sake, right? I mean, not asking for like, get
(34:05):
your name off my birthday, you know?
This is what I'm. Talking about like moving
forward in history, I'm not partof this family.
I'm actually part of this familyand let the record show what is
right. Absolutely.
You mentioned your your brothers.
How are things with them? Your new found biological
(34:27):
brothers. They're awful at a snail's pace.
I don't want to discount the fact that we have established a
bit of a relationship and I'm sofreaking grateful for that.
So I think in the book, the lastthing I leave off with was last
Saint Patrick's Day. And then I do go to the family
reunion in the summer. It's a like a week long event
(34:48):
for them. And my biological father and I
were not there on the same day, but he went the day after me.
And I was invited to my biological father's sisters
house for Christmas this year because a cousin was up that I I
have connected with. They were at these things, you
know, but for example, my older brother has a daughter who lives
(35:10):
here in my town, who, you know, she's very social in my town.
So am I 3 1/2 years. I still haven't met my niece.
I don't know that she even has adesire to meet me.
I have met her brothers, which are my nephews, but I have not
met her for whatever reason is going on.
I know she's very close with hergrandmother, which would be my
(35:31):
half brother's mother. So I don't know if there's like
a protection thing there. Although the boy's mother, she
has kind of reached out. I think she's OK with the fact
that I have, you know, found andtold my story.
And I think she even has curiosities and would like to
talk someday. And I'm, I'm basically open to
sitting down and talking with anybody.
(35:52):
But as far as the boys are going, it's it's there, but it's
very slow and it's still very guarded, I think because of
where their dad is. Now you you mentioned that you
can write the story. You do leave your story
open-ended. Where are you now with
everything and where do you hopeit will go?
(36:14):
Oh, I love this question becausewe just spoke about this in our
third Thursday, not this past month, but the month before, you
know, and this goes kind of along with that quote of it
doesn't get better, it gets different, right?
Because we talked about how 3 1/2 years out, things are much
more idle. They don't have a sense of
(36:35):
urgency or curiosity like they did in those maybe that initial
year or even 2. Now I have more days where I can
go not feeling fixated on it or thinking about it, but there
will still be days that will popup and suck me right back in
into why not? How do I do this?
(36:57):
Should I be making the move? Am I the one that's supposed to
keep trying until this happens? Because I've basically told him
time and again in some way, shape or form, you know, via
e-mail through his sons or whatever, I'm here and I'm ready
when you are. I'm going to sit back.
I don't want to push you or pressure you.
You know, you let me know when you're ready.
(37:19):
But on the same token, I'm a very spiritual person.
I believe in manifestation. I believe in helping to write
our own stories. And I do feel like I also don't
want to feel like I've thrown inthe towel or I've given up
because I haven't. My hope is very much still
there. I would like him to sit down at
a table and meet my husband and his two granddaughters and just
(37:42):
acknowledge that they are of himand his family.
And even if it were one meeting,just to say, you know, I would
like for my daughters to be ableto go out in the community and
if they run into this cousin of theirs, be able to say hi in a
cordial way and not like turn their head.
And I know he's, he's kind of sort of got to be the one to
(38:06):
give the green light for that, if you will.
Nobody's saying that. But let's face it, that's what's
kind of going on here, right? But I, I do feel like he's
warming. But 3 1/2 years out, my need and
my longing for it are definitelydialed down.
They're not gone, they never will be.
But I think one of the biggest things was that this journey of
(38:30):
longing to be long, which has been my whole entire life with
my raised family and now with mybiological family, has taught me
to love and belong with this little family that I have.
Like I have never understood that and cherished that more
(38:51):
than I do right now, this year in this exact time.
And for me, I know deep down in my heart of hearts that is
enough. It will be enough for me.
And if they come along, that's just gravy, and that'll be a
nice little bonus. But I really have what I've been
searching for my whole life right here, right now.
(39:13):
And I'm so thankful for that. And I'm so thankful that this
journey in searching for my biological father really helped
remind me of that for sure. That's really well stated, well
put. One of the quotes that really
stood out to me was when your friend told you your book is
(39:36):
going to help far more people than it is going to hurt.
I loved that. I loved that because, you know,
having the podcast and getting to talk to so many people and
them sharing their stories and you know, on a personal note,
sharing my story and even the little introduction to my
(39:59):
episode every week where I'm acknowledging that this thing
happened to me. You know, I am protective of my
parents and my family. And for a long time it was in
the back of my mind like, is this hurting them to do this?
And so to read that, first of all, in my case, I, I don't
(40:19):
think I'm hurting them. I I think they're, they're
working through it, but. To read that was really freeing
because it's that reminder of the difference and and the
support that you're lending to other people who have been
through similar experiences far outweighs any other fallout that
(40:42):
might happen as a result of telling our stories.
Absolutely. I wanted to ask you, how has
putting your story down on paperhelped you?
And then, you know, I'm curious what you've been hearing from
people who have read it. Great question.
So first of all, let me just say, writing the story I
(41:06):
recommend for everybody. I'm not talking about people,
you know, you don't have to publish the book, but writing
and working through your feelings is I was writing things
I didn't know where these words were coming from half the time.
Like I was like writing my own healing and, and, and, and
stirring up forgiveness and, andthings that I didn't know I was
(41:29):
capable of and that were deep down inside.
So I do recommend, whether it bethrough journaling or like Eve
Sturgis does the processing journal.
I did that with her for one round.
Loved every bit of it. I still do journal, but telling
the story has been extremely cathartic.
And I think that, you know, because I had had a lot of epic
(41:51):
episodes even prior to this, like I, you know, I, I got
sober, I had a weight loss journey, I had cancer, I had
this traumatic childhood. I basically said, look, there's
no way I'm not supposed to be talking about this stuff.
There's just too many things. But you're right, it comes back
to that quote and and I, I took that quote very, very literally,
(42:15):
Alexis, I said to myself, how many people am I going to piss
off? Let me, let me count.
And I got to like 3 or 4 people who could actually genuinely be
pissed off that I was sharing the story, OK.
Or who have a right to be genuinely pissed off that I was
sharing any of these stories. And then I thought about the
(42:35):
thousands of people out there who have been abused, who need
to get sober, who have been through cancer, who have found
out that they really didn't belong to their family.
And I thought, she's exactly right.
It doesn't matter if I piss off a few people.
If I piss them off enough that they want to exit my life or
they don't want anything to do with me, then that's their loss.
(42:58):
And that brings me to the other part of your question, in that I
still have. My book has been out since
December and I still have not heard any feedback from my
biological side as to the take on what they think about it.
I don't know if my biological father read it.
I don't know if he will. I don't know if my brothers have
(43:20):
or my aunts or my cousins. The last I checked in with my
cousin, she just hadn't gotten to it yet and, you know, was
hoping to do so. And of course, I'm dying of
curiosity because I think I did it.
I wrote the story in a very tactful manner and I really, as
much as I honored everybody else's perspective, I really
just want them to see mine and understand I'm not coming at
(43:44):
anybody. I'm not trying to hurt anybody.
I'm not trying to blame anybody.I'm just trying to say this is
life and it happened and now here I am, you know, So I don't
know that my story coming out has truly hurt anybody over
here, the key players. Because I would like to think
(44:07):
that my book has freed my raisedfather from having to carry
those secrets anymore. And I hope that it has freed my
biological father from having to, you know, exit his lifetime
having to say, well, I didn't reach out to her.
I didn't talk to that girl. I didn't give her the time of
day. You know, he did sit down with
me. And if that's all I ever get, he
(44:30):
at least can know that he gave me that, right.
So I just feel like, well, people might be maybe a little
embarrassed initially, a little shamed initially.
I hope that nobody is hurt, but that everybody becomes healed.
(44:52):
I don't want to go into any any more spoilers other than to say
you're you're really fantastic storyteller, writer, author, and
for people that have had this experience, I think it this book
will definitely validate a lot of the feelings that that we
experience when you outline likethe the I don't know how many
(45:16):
were in the list, but like 10 feelings that you realized
didn't make your story a special.
You know when you're. Listening to the podcast of of
not being able to look at yourself in the mirror, of
having an out of body experience.
Like you kind of go through all of that and that's really going
to help people, far more people than it could have possibly
(45:36):
hurt. Where can people find your book
if they are interested in reading When You Shake the
Family tree? Come on, thanks for letting me
put in a little plug. So my book is available on
Amazon. It is under my pen name, which
is Margo Reilly. I write under a pen name, not
(45:57):
for anonymity, but just out of respect to the players.
Obviously everybody's name is changed in in the story, but
both of my memoirs are on Amazonand they are again under Mark
O'Reilly. But if you go to my website,
which is just being jill.com, all the information about my
books is there. You can even get the 1st chapter
free to my latest memoir if you want to kind of read it and see
(46:19):
if it's for you. I believe the introduction and
chapter one are available once you subscribe at the bottom.
And I don't send any daunting things out.
You know, it's just so that you can be informed about my books
and, and, you know, and if I putthem on sale or anything like
that, you might get a notification.
But yeah, just being jill.com isthe place to go.
(46:39):
Awesome, Jill, thank you so muchfor joining me for an update and
just sharing your progress sincewe first spoke.
I will put the link to your bookand your website in the show
notes for anyone who's interested, and I'll see you on
the next third Thursday. You sure will.
Thank you for your time and thank you for allowing me to
(47:01):
come and give this update. I love hearing the continued
stories and progress of of the people that you spend your time
with. I think it's fascinating to hear
our similarities and our differences and I really
appreciate it. I appreciate what you do.
Thank you, Alexis. Thank you.
Thanks again to Jill for joiningme.
If you want to read her book When You Shake the Family Tree,
(47:23):
pick it up at Just Being jill.com.
And if you have adna surprise that you'd like to share, please
submit your story at dnasurprises.com.
Finally, be sure to join me overat patreon.com/DNA Surprises for
early ad free access to episodes.
Until next time, this episode ofDNA Surprises was hosted,
(47:45):
produced, and edited by me, Alexis Ourselt.
It was mixed and mastered by Josh Ourselt of Siren Recording
Studios.
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