December 11, 2023 • 50 mins
Get ready to embark on a transformative journey! With our brilliant guest Aaron AP3 Porter, we pull back the curtain on mental health and trauma within the church. Aaron, a beacon of wisdom, takes us on a thought-provoking exploration, helping us understand the significance of mental health, soul care, and the urgent need to burst the stigma bubble enveloping these topics in the religious context. We delve deep into the dual facets of mental health - the scientific and spiritual - and discuss our personal experiences with childhood trauma, the impact it has on our self-perception, and the vital essence of breaking free from past traumas.
Together, we visit the realms of forgiveness, and its impact on men's mental health, especially in their relationships with their fathers. We emphasize choosing forgiveness and learning to let go of past hurts as a liberating force. The conversation takes a turn towards the importance of counseling and therapy within the church. We confront the stigmatization that associates seeking mental health help with weakness and underline the necessity of therapy for everyone - not just those living in crisis.
As we tread further, our discussion revolves around the importance of humility, self-awareness, and the ability to acknowledge our limitations in providing effective counseling. We stress on the significance of leaving personal triggers and biases at the door during counseling sessions and relying on a higher power. The episode is brimming with wisdom, peppered with real-life stories and experiences, and packed with transformative insights on mental health and well-being. So join us on this journey of self-discovery and healing. Let's open our hearts to the experience, and who knows - we might just walk out transformed on the other side.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I have the distinct pleasure to introduce to you one
of my brothers from anothermother, same father, up in
heaven.
This guy.
Look, I'm not exaggerating whenI tell you this guy has wisdom
and experience that far, thatfar exceeds his age.
(00:23):
When I tell you he is a sageand one of these scribes that
the Bible talks about, when itcomes to breaking down complex
things and to digestible bitesize nuggets, he's an expert.
When I tell you that the man isone of my aspirations, when it
(00:44):
comes to vacation lifestyle.
When I tell you that this guycan preach like he was coming
out the womb with the wordmemorized.
This man has a word of God inhis heart and his soul.
He could take anything I don'tknow if y'all he could take
anything around him and give youa word from it.
(01:04):
I'm talking from a stop sign toa new edition group.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Come on with it now.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
I'm telling you telling you that you, if you've
never met him, if you've neverlistened to him, have you never
heard him speak, If you've neverprayed with him, you're doing
yourself, your life, yourmarriage, disservice, because he
has the tools, the spirit, theanointing to unpackage the
things that you combat the mostand help you live a life that's
(01:34):
on purpose, that's intentionaland that's life giving.
I'm talking about none otherthan my brother, my friend Aaron
AP three.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Porter.
Come on, brother.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for the invite.
Thanks for the invite.
And, man, I'm telling you youdidn't have to do all that for
me man, I love it I love it.
I'm just this dude, that's.
You know, man.
You know, I'm just another dude.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Come on, man, but I love I was telling everyone I
bring on the podcast man thatthat means a lot.
Everybody that I bring on meansa lot to me, man, but people
that I bring on, I want tointroduce them in a way that um
exhaust them while they're stillliving, because too many times
we get our flowers and our rosesafter we've gone away and we've
(02:19):
never get a chance to tell thepeople that deposited so much
into our lives how much theymean to us and how much they
affected us in a major way.
And you are one of those guysfor a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, thank you, man.
I thank you for the invite.
I know we've been trying to getget this thing started.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Oh, man, um, but it's , it's an honor and a pleasure
to be here.
Yes, um and uh, I just want togive a shout out to you, my man,
who are, uh, an entrepreneur, abusiness owner, a father, a
husband, past the hair man, youknow now, student man, you ready
, you know, just a lot of hasp,but last but not least, for
(02:58):
serving our country, uh but,indignity.
Man in honor, man.
So that means a lot to me.
So I look at that, you know,and, uh, I like to see brothers
doing things.
Yeah, you know, yeah, youremember in the hood where we
just you know the cat that youwould always have it all
together.
You know what I'm saying.
He's like man, he got it.
He got it going on, but it wasa different kind of going on
(03:20):
back then when I was running thestreets.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, I was like, yeah, but uh, I appreciate you,
man, come on what you bring intothe table.
Yes, um, uh, bring it to theworld, man, because we need this
.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
We need this.
Yes, we do, we do, we and um,you know, I.
I thank you for saying thatbecause, um, when God put this
on my heart to do this, I thinkit was the best platform for me.
Personally, I love talking,yeah, I love interacting with
people and um, and God just putme on a crash course to mental
(03:52):
health, soul care and trauma allin one, and I never thought
that would be the direction thatI will go.
I saw my life as the digitalmarketing, entrepreneurial,
laptop lifestyle guy who couldjust sell you anything, but God
(04:12):
has completely flipped that.
Man and um, I'm seeing how it'sall coming together, uh, with,
with ministry, with pastoring,with counseling, with coaching
and, um, even with teaching,yeah, yeah and um, I'm grateful
for it.
So, man, um, one of the mainreasons I wanted to have you on
is, man, we're like, uh, uh,credentialed, um, um, in the
(04:35):
area of mental health, coachingand um, do the work Like a do
all bro, like a come on, come on.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
I don't know what to expect.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Come listen, I can do .
Well, we um, and the crazy partis we.
We found ourselves in that samepath, but different ways.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
And that's God.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah and um, you know , I just I knew, I knew the Holy
spirit was real and I knewmental health was real, but I
didn't know how much of a ummental block I had with
churchifying mental health.
(05:18):
Oh, yeah, oh yeah, and all Iknew like schizophrenia and
bipolarism and and depressionand all that I knew that was a
real thing.
But because I grew up in churchand we churchify everything,
that was just a demon that needsto be casted out.
It wasn't a real psychological,neural imbalance that can be
(05:41):
scientifically proven, thatthere's something going on in
your head, in your emotions, andso, getting into this field,
man, um, I still believe there'sa spiritual component to
everything, but I also believethat God is a God of everything.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, yeah, you know, god of everything.
I mean I like how you put that,because, uh, I felt like for
years mental health and uh, inthe church was like a I'm just
like a stigma, like it was like,yeah, nobody really talked
about it, you know, nobodyreally talked about it.
Um, they spiritualizedeverything.
Everything was was sospiritualized and instead of
(06:19):
learning the person, we kind oflearned the symptom.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Come on, come on, yes , and.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I'm like symptoms.
There's a reason for thatsymptom Come on, you know what
I'm saying.
So we learned the symptoms, man, and that's just.
That's just the church way todo things.
You know, and, um, everywhere,everybody have their way of
doing things.
But I think we got to take astep back, uh, and we think
about, you know, life and whereyou've been, you know, and
(06:49):
whether or not you had trauma inyour life, you had some some
issues just growing up, family,family dynamics, all that play
into mental health.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, all of it, yeah , do something.
That, um, really connected thedots for me was the verse Uh,
it's not a versus, a combinationof versus, but when it says
there's a, there's a fruit, butwe don't deal with the fruit, we
(07:19):
deal with the root.
And so in mental health, youhave the symptoms that are the
fruit, yeah, and we think thefruit is just a behavior problem
, we think the fruit is adiscipline problem, we think the
fruit is a sanctificationproblem, but the root, yeah, of
that thing is usually trauma.
Oh, yeah, the root of thatthing is usually mental health.
(07:39):
The root of that thing isusually an environment that has
been so stressed and sotraumatic that the only way that
you survived it was to to adapta mentally unstable way of
living.
And, depending on how you lookat it, it can make you or break
you.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
It can, uh, it can, you know, it can, it can, um, it
can determine what life reallygoing to look like for you, you
know, depending on how you dealwith trauma and how you deal
with, um, uh, some unbalances inyour life.
Yeah, you know for me, you knowI, I mean, just when I think
back as a little shorty for me,uh, five years old, I saw uh, my
(08:24):
mother being domestically, justuh, my mother being
domestically, just beat you know, by my stepdad and at five
years old, seeing that, itreally kind of put a root of
fear in you at five years old.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
This is five years old.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes, mother had me at 14, my mom's 14, which is yes
and grandmother raised me.
She gets out of the house, getinto a relationship that was not
fruitful, was not the idealrelationship and it caused some
domestic violence.
So as I grew up as a young man,I just, you know, I there was
(09:03):
things in my life that will,that will trigger me and I'm
like ooh and then fear andanxiety and things start just
kind of kind of going on and um.
So I walked through a lot ofthat and it, but it all started
at five years old bro.
Man Five, five, five you know,so it'll stick with you if you
(09:25):
don't deal with it.
Yes, it will.
It will stick with you, youknow man.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I appreciate that.
That reminds me of, uh, when Iwas in in therapy with a lady,
um from um, when I was dealingwith some stuff in my own life.
Um, she asked me there was twoquestions that like
revolutionized how I dealt withmy trauma and how I saw myself.
Yeah, and one question sheasked me is, she said, who are
(09:55):
you Without telling me what youdo?
Wow, she said tell me who youare without telling me what you
do, because what you do does notmatter to God as far as how he
sees you.
So tell me who you are withouttelling me what you do.
Because she saw, she saw in me aperformance based identity that
(10:16):
if I, if I, if, if certainpeople saw me a certain way, I
will, I will live up to thatimage.
So it was based off what I did,or where I worked, or who I,
and so that that really made medig.
And at the end of the, at theend of the, the, the sessions,
at the end of the day, it waslike no matter what I do, I'm a
(10:39):
son.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I'm a son, before anything.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
I'm a son.
And if I can't rest in mysonship to my heavenly father,
then no matter what else I,nothing else matters.
I could make all the money, Icould impact all the people, but
if I don't see myself as a son,then I will always try to earn
my way into God's good graces.
And then she asked me.
(11:01):
She said, when she didn't askme, she told me.
Once I told her my life storyand the traumatizing things that
I saw growing up, and she saidshe says, harold, what you did,
god did not condemn because youwere surviving.
(11:22):
She said.
But now she said, as a littleboy, as a teenager, you were
surviving.
She said.
But now you are a man, you area husband, you are a father.
You can't keep surviving.
Yeah, it's time for you to growup and start thriving.
(11:43):
And you can't do that if youstill are have a bit to
mentality.
You can't do that if it'severybody else fought, not yours
.
You can't do that if you don'tsee the part you played in
repeating the trauma youexperienced.
And so I was just like OK, oldlady, you coming on a little
(12:05):
hard.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That was me, that was me that was some heat, but
those things were.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Those things stuck with me so much.
It reminds me of my dad'sfavorite scripture.
My dad's favorite scripture waswhen I was a child.
I thought it was a child, Ilived as a child, you know.
I understood as a child, butwhen?
And I could be misquoted.
But this the essence is.
But Paul said, when I became aman, I put away my childish
(12:31):
things and I always thought,growing up, my dad would always
quote that and I thought, ok, Ineed to man up.
Yeah, I need to man up, I needto.
I need to stop crying so much,I need to stop, you know,
complaining so much.
I thought it meant that, ok,pull yourself up by your
bootstraps, get it together andbe a man.
(12:52):
But coming into this mentalhealth space, bro, god has
changed my view on thatscripture.
When I was a child, Iunderstood through my trauma.
Mm.
Hmm, I responded through mytrauma.
I lived a life through the lensof trauma, yeah, but when I
(13:18):
become a man, the only way Icould become a man is if I do
the work to get to deal with thetrauma, yeah, and not allow the
trauma to keep dealing with me.
Oh, yeah, that's good, and so Ihave to put away my childish
things.
The Holy Spirit said what doesyour childhood represent?
It's like being a kid.
(13:40):
No, no, no, no, no.
What does your childhood when I, when my word, says, put away
your childish things, mm hmm.
What does your childhoodrepresent?
And that hit hall?
Yeah, loneliness.
Mm hmm.
Misunderstanding, yeah,awkwardness, but most
importantly, trauma, mm hmm.
So the Holy Spirit was likewhen you put away those things,
(14:03):
not hide them, not ignore them,but when you deal with them in a
healthy way and no longer havethem on the forefront of who you
are.
This is who I am, mm hmm, I'mthe misunderstood one.
I'm the traumatized one.
I'm the one who didn't nobodylike.
I'm the one that nobodylistened to.
He said no, no, put that away,yeah, and be the man that I've
called you to be.
(14:24):
Yeah.
That's like whoa that's that's,that's heat, man.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
That's.
That's a lot of some heat tothat.
Um, there's a scripture that Ialways like to um kind of
express it's.
It reads like this it says so aman thinketh so was he.
Yeah, and I think, as, as men,we sometimes can think, we think
we're thinking like a man, butwe're thinking like that little
(14:47):
five year old boy- Come on, comeon.
Like a five year boy up untiluh shucks all the way through
high school, I feel like becauseI had fear, I had anxiety, I
had worry.
It was all that stuff was justbut, but.
But what you're saying?
I disguised it, you know, withsome kind of uh, uh, uh.
My thought was healthy andparents were running around with
(15:10):
all the women or hanging outwith all these relationships.
They didn't really mean much,so I was hiding it, but I was
still thinking like a little boy, a five year boy Yep.
And I had to um express to allof our clients like so a man
thinketh.
So was he.
So what are you thinking onCome?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
on.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
And, and and.
How do you go about your day?
Are you thinking like thatperson that was abused or hurt,
or are you thinking about whereyou going?
Yes, and and, and what God hasput inside of you, man?
Because I'm telling you, man,as men, we, we have a lot to be
thankful for, as men of God, um,especially as, as, as husbands,
(15:49):
as fathers man and we take alot for granted, I feel like as
men you know, and we're soworried about the pain and the
struggle and we forget aboutwhat's in front of us.
man, and and I had to, I had tolater on in life, understand
that it's more to it than thatfive little boy, five year old
(16:10):
boy, that that experience all ofthat in his life.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
So I had to make a change.
Yeah, yeah, man, that's had tomake change.
That that reminds me of thatreminds me of a song by my
favorite rap artist, kb KevinBurgess.
Kb, his song, daddy.
I pulled up the lyrics.
(16:35):
I'm going to read them here.
He says the scars you leftbehind with me left me so messed
up I don't know how to be free.
Hmm.
But the part I wanted to saywas he said Daddy, uh no, he
(16:55):
says I can't trust enough to.
He says, even if she shows meshe trusts me, I can't trust
enough to know that she won'thurt me like you did.
Hmm, His relationship with hisdad affected his relationship
with his own woman, becausethat's where we get that
security and that you know that,the foundational things.
(17:15):
But what really messed me up ishe said Daddy, did you know
I've been a therapy.
Then he says Abandonments, thewords she used for me.
But at least I've named thething that hinders me.
Now I can finally find a way tolive in peace.
So no more excuses here for me.
But another verse that thatmessed me up, because I bear
(17:38):
witness with this whole thing,but this one.
He says um, did you know Iremember the day, remember the
year in my age?
Did you know I remembers mom'sface, the way she cried will
never be erased from my head andI'm like dude, as man.
(18:04):
We carry so much trauma but wecan't.
We feel like we can't expressit, because if we do that, then
we being weak.
If we do that, then we being,you know, emotional.
If we do that, then we're not.
We're not being there for thepeople we need to be there with.
But what I like at the end ofthe song is he says daddy, did
(18:29):
you know, um, that I prayed andhow much I miss you?
I still do.
He says, but I'll let go.
Oh, here it is.
Here it is, here it is.
He says we are on a journey,daddy, and he said are you ever
(18:50):
proud of me?
Do you ever smile at me?
My boys, they won't ever feelthis pain.
I could not replace you, eventhough I prayed to daddy, did
you know I still do?
No, how much I missed you and Istill do.
He said, but, daddy, I'll letyou go.
(19:10):
He says I'll let you go, I'mfine, I'm a man now I forgive.
I forgive you, daddy.
He, what I love about that songwas what you, what we're
talking about, is he equatedmanhood to forgiveness.
(19:33):
How many little boys arewalking around because they
whole known the things that theywon't forgive people love, and
so they act very immature, isvery childish, very, you know,
adolescent, because they haven'tlearned to walk in continual
forgiveness.
I was talking to a guy the otherday.
(19:55):
He says, man, I really can'tget over this person.
And I say why?
He says I forgiven them, but Ikeep getting triggered by what
they did to me.
And I said, well, they forgivehim again.
He said but I already triedthat forgiveness thing.
That don't work, so I'm gonnajust have to hold on to this and
(20:17):
just like move differently.
And so what that said to me wasa lot, and this was a Christian
guy.
What I told him was man,forgiveness isn't a one time act
.
Forgiveness is like the onionman.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Boy, you got to be like, you peel a layer and you
get you wipe your eyes, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
But by the time you get to another layer, it's new
tears, New tears, bro.
And so you got to keep wipingyour eyes in the symbolism of
forgiveness.
So when you peel that onion andyou get it to another label
that that stings, you chooseforgiveness.
That forgiveness then wipesyour eyes.
You're like, okay, I feel alittle better on placing this at
Jesus feet.
And then you some time goaround and you get triggered
(21:00):
again and there's more tearsbecause there's another layer
and so we have to continuallywalk.
Oh yeah, I think about thescripture when the disciple said
man, how many times we got toforget this guy You're like
getting 70 times seven orwhatever you know, that's a lot.
That's a lot bro and we as men,we physically we can carry, you
(21:27):
know, and emotionally andpsychologically we can carry a
lot.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, yeah, man, I look at it like this man.
It's a lot of grown men walkingaround like toddlers.
Yes, like we, I mean like thetoddler syndrome.
Man, I mean this, mind youcan't have this Yep.
You know, ready to fight it atthe drop of a hat this is mine,
you know, yep, instead ofgrowing up growing through it.
(21:55):
So, but forgiveness is the key,though.
It opens up the door, yes, to awhole lot of freedom.
Yeah, and you know, we'vewalked through some stuff with
individuals like, okay, it goesback to forgiving, we're gonna
walk you through this process,because a lot of times you gotta
go back and deal with it, yep,okay, and once you walk through
(22:15):
that process, but the ultimategoal is to forgive.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It's not to hold on.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yes, it's not to keep it in your pocket it's not to
quote unquote, just say no, thisis mine, because I've carried
it so long.
You know what I'm saying.
And some folk, man, they carrystuff so long that it just
begins to be just like it's justthem.
Yep, it's like, you know, wegot five senses, they got that
(22:41):
six.
You know, it's like it's justthat sixth thing, that's them
right, because they never justsay you know what I gotta get,
let this thing go.
They don't know who they arewithout it.
That's good.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Man, that's so good man.
I am so appreciative forInspire Hope Counseling man.
Inspire Hope Counseling is amuch needed ministry for people
who don't know what to do, butthey know they need to do
something.
Yeah, it's like I don't knowwhat to do but I know what I'm
doing ain't right and I can'tfix it myself.
I need some help.
(23:13):
And I'm so appreciative for youand your wife's ministry.
I'm so appreciative with thethings that you guys do for
families, that's, lost childrenwith the AP3 Foundation.
Like man, like dude, it's justif you and your wife could just
share all the testimonies thatyou've seen people, there
(23:35):
wouldn't be room enough.
It's just to go on and on andon, because God is just so good
yes, he is, and how he dealswith people.
Man, I wanna share this man andwe'll shift gears.
But when we talk about what yousaid the toddler syndrome and
(23:56):
when people don't give, somebodyasked me a while ago, harold,
why do you forgive so easily?
Because they had learned aboutsome stuff that I had
experienced.
They was like, no, that personwould've been dead to me.
Like you better not dapped meup, you better not come in for a
hug.
(24:16):
But we can't even go to thesame church after you did what
you did, and they was like howin the world do you forgive so
easily?
And the only thing I could say,man, is that I've been forgiven
much.
Yeah yeah, it was so easy forthe Lord to forgive me.
Dare I not extend the samegrace to someone else?
(24:39):
Come on, those who have beenforgiven much can forgive much,
but if you feel like ain'tnobody really forgiving you for
nothing, then you feel like youhave a right to hold people to
stuff that you like.
Come on, man.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Man, some stuff we done.
Just think about it past Haroldgrowing up.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
We've done some stuff that we should've been judged
by Come on, our whole lifestyleshould be shifted.
It should be.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I mean, I mean I shouldn't be sitting here, right
now, come on, I'm like bro, I'mlike some stuff we done, walked
through Some things that itwould have been like, but the
Lord said no, no, no, no, no.
I got a different path for you.
Come on, I got a different pathfor you and I will allow you to
walk through that stuff so youcan reach back and grab another
(25:30):
brother, another sister like ifI made it, you could make it.
If I grew up in that same hoodyou grew up in Come on, come on
the same hood.
So if I can make it, you canmake it too.
So, but that forgiveness man isso man.
It's got so much weight, somuch heat to it.
Because if we can only forgiveand my wife says it like this
(25:53):
she's like so if Jesus forgive,how come you can't Come on?
She know how to hit you in thegut, I mean.
And she'd be like if Jesusforgave you of your sin, how
come you can't Come on?
It makes sense, you know, andthere's some some heavy stuff
(26:14):
that people go through and Idon't want you to give me you
know there's some we don't.
We don't minimize it, heavystuff and and I'm not trying to
minimize that by no shape orfashion yeah, but at the end of
the day, mm-hmm, as Christianbelievers, as blood wash
Christians that say, you knowwhat they're, same grace that
(26:34):
you've received, that I received.
Come on, it's available foreverybody.
Yes, it doesn't have a.
It doesn't matter what yourskin color is, yep, but I'm not
what you.
You know what the economy isbringing up.
Economically, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Grace is sufficient for everybody in his forgiveness
and the Bible says that it'snew every morning every morning.
You wake up and it's a cleanslate new grace, new mercies.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Bra, it's not so.
That's so, man, that's so good,dude, you think about that how
good that is.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Jesus is like you acted a plum food last night,
bro, but today is a new day.
I'll give you new mercies, newgrace, new mercies, new grace.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
So I love new mercies , new grace, because it's
renewed every morning, every day, yep, you know, and we don't
have to Walk through some thingsthat we walk through and just
be like okay, it's, there's no,there's no hope.
I gotta earn my grace back,because there's individuals that
walk like that.
Yeah, and as coaches, you know,as mental health coaches, we
(27:36):
gotta coach people through that.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
That's right we do, because, because it's our
Decision, we have to decide thatI'm going to accept and receive
that new mercy and a new graceand I'm gonna live accordingly.
Because just because it's theredon't mean you put it on and
walk with it.
Come on, you could walk rightthrough it.
Yeah, white, right past it.
Yeah, man, I heard, I heard Tytribute say this and it blew my
(28:00):
mind.
He was speaking at a conferenceand he said have you ever
thought about the tree in thegarden?
And Every he said.
He said Salvation is a freegift, unproved, hmm, meaning you
(28:21):
don't have to earn it, youdon't have to prove it, you
don't have it's unproved, yeahyeah, but.
If you take, like the, the treein the garden, every time Adam
and Eve walk past the tree anddidn't eat, they were proving
their Themselves to God, theywere acting.
And he says every morning newgrace, new mercy, to walk past
(28:41):
and not purchase.
But one day, yeah, you knowwhat, I don't need no more mercy
and grace.
I'm gonna just ignore the mercyand grace and I'm gonna just be
like I wonder what that be like.
And so that new mercy, that newgrace is, is our decision, man
and as as coaches, what I'velearned in the mental health
(29:02):
space Is that we don't so muchas tell people what they need to
do, as much as we ask the rightquestions.
Yeah and they come to thoseconclusions on themselves
because they see and understandthe truth behind it.
Yeah, that's deep man.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I mean that's that's some seriousness behind it
because you have to ask theright questions.
Yes, because I feel like if wedon't ask the right questions,
you can wound somebody not evenand not even knowing it.
You know and I and you gottathink back.
What did I really say?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, so if you're not asking the right questions,
man, you can be detrimental tosome folk yes, some folk and and
dude that and that all that allcomes back to the forgiveness
aspect Is because when we chooseforgiveness, we're not so much
as choosing to forgive for theirsake as we're choosing to
forgive for our sake.
Oh yeah, because if we chooseunforgiveness, I'm not gonna
(30:01):
forgive you and so I'm going tolive my life in a way that Keeps
your own, keeps myunforgiveness towards you front
center.
Yeah, I can't move in certainways because that would mean I'm
gonna be Too much grace.
Yeah, so I gotta keep myselfconfined so that you know that I
don't forgive you.
But but when we chooseforgiveness, man, that allows us
(30:21):
, man, the best way I heard itwas when we forgive someone, we
release them and to to moveFreely.
And that forgiveness, oh yeah,meaning when I say I forgive you
and I release you To live inthat freedom, yeah, meaning you
may wound me again, yeah, youmay cut me again, like you make.
(30:44):
You know it may not be all, butby the act of me doing that I'm
not cutting my own self off,yeah, from receiving
Relationship and love andforgiveness into.
And so, man, that thatforgiveness piece is, is
important and we can, we couldtalk all day about Absolutely,
because there's so many levelsand layers to forgiveness that I
mean books upon books uponbooks have been written about
(31:07):
forgiveness, and this is a keyfactor, absolutely, but Real
good.
I'm pausing, so let's switchgears for a little bit and I
just want to ask you just what'ssome you know From the work
(31:29):
that you've been doing and yourwife's been doing, and just some
things you've been noticing andseeing Spiritually.
What's some, what's some thingsthat God's been really
highlighting to you as far asyou know mental health, our
Spiritual warfare.
However, it may be that that wecan use to to do the work In
(31:52):
our, in our daily walk, man, Ithink, most importantly, I feel
like that Counseling has been Astigma.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I would say to many of us, yes, yes, especially in
the African-American man youknow community.
I feel like man, you know, yousay counseling oh.
I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
You know, community.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
I feel like man, you know.
You say counseling.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Therapist.
What are you?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
kidding me.
Good, you know what goes in thehouse, so stays in the house.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah mindset.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
well, you know a lot of that is is, but we'll put
more focus on cars and shoes,but we won't put no focus on our
spiritual health, man, yeah youknow, yeah.
So I'm finding out when I'msitting in in a counseling room
that Sometimes people think moreabout the things that the you
(32:51):
know like they're the shoes,cars, and they put more value
come on, value Bro come on thatversus value into their
spiritual health and the mentalhealth, and and we literally
have to pause a minute and justsay look, yeah, do you realize
where you are?
You know, dude, do you realizewhere you are come?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
on.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah, and I Feel like you know, I know we can't put
cost on everything.
Money is, you know, andsomething.
Well, I can't afford counseling.
Well, it ain't about what youcan't afford.
Yeah, you know, you know.
So we, we go, we hear a lot ofthat man and again it's more the
understanding of counseling.
(33:32):
I feel like I feel like some ofus don't really understand the
value of yeah.
Yeah, you know the hope that itbrings.
Yeah, you know.
And on the church side ofthings, I feel like a Lot of us
feel like the pastor, the seniorpastor, has to do all the work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they got tobe the counselor.
(33:53):
They got a barrier.
That Mary.
Yeah, they do all cut the grass.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
You be on your death bed.
I'm all senior pastor that prayfor me.
No, go get the senior pastorgot two minutes to live.
Tell him to hurry up.
You know you know, you know youwant that.
You want the senior pastor todo premarital.
You want the senior pastor tomarry you.
You want the senior pastor todo post marital counseling,
(34:17):
because the premarital that you,he did what you, you didn't
listen to.
So now you need him to Counselthe stuff that you've got
yourself into because you didn'tlisten the first time.
And then you want the pastorthat you know they do the the
marriage counseling, the familycounseling, and and then when
you find out what I need, mm-hmm, I need him do that too.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, it's, it's so.
God has gifted the body ofChrist man.
Yeah, just certain individualswith the call, you know as a
therapist as a counselor.
Yeah, yeah, yeah there's aspace for therapy in the church.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Man man, I think, I think the the church is Starting
to catch up, mm-hmm to wherethe world has already realized.
Oh which grieves me in a way.
It grieves me in a way, andwhat I mean by that is that my
counterparts in the secularworld understand the importance
(35:14):
of counsel in therapy a Lot oftimes greater than.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
People in the church.
Well, you know, I had onebrother said man, you know,
counseling ain't for me.
I'm like oh, you know, you'regonna have to elaborate yeah
counseling is not for everybody.
Yeah, yeah and I had to take a.
I said listen.
I said um wasn't Jesus thewonderful counselor?
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Come on, say it.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
I said, was Jesus the wonderful counselor?
So you mean to tell me thatJesus ain't for everybody?
I mean, you gotta talk aboutthis to me.
So when I point blank, kindajust sign up, I wasn't trying to
be all arrogant about it, buthe understood where I was coming
from Because he had you knowwhat man?
(36:01):
You right, he was the wonderfulcounselor.
He is the wonderful counselor,as a matter of fact, and we
can't do what we do withoutJesus, dude, we can't.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
I think the greatest stigma to counseling and therapy
, and even mental healthcoaching, is that what people
perceive it to look like.
Ooh Dog, I ain't trying to layon no couch and tell you my
problems, right?
I ain't trying to.
You know what I'm saying.
You know I had this soldier dude.
He's in his 50s and he calledme up.
(36:35):
He got divorced and he was witha new girl who was crazy, you
know.
She told him you know I've beendiagnosed with bipolar
schizophrenia, but I pretty muchgot it under control for the
most part and so he was like manyou gotta watch down.
I got another control now.
He said man, so he was in arelationship with a girl and
(37:02):
they've had a few disagreementsand fights and stuff.
And his daughter said Dad, Ithink you now this is his
daughter, she's about 20, 1920.
And she said Dad, I think youjumped into this prematurely,
(37:23):
you ain't really dealt with allthe stuff mom did.
And he was like what she said.
She said cause she was goingoff to college.
She was like dad, I'm leavingthe house.
She felt like she was keepinghim together and she said dad,
I'm leaving the house and I wantyou to promise me that you're
(37:44):
gonna go help Cause he told hisdaughter, he said I'm breaking
up with girl, she gotta, shegotta bounce Like this ain't
working out.
And his daughter was likethat's because I think you had
some undoubted with stuff fromwhen mom, that just it wasn't
gonna work from the beginning.
(38:04):
And he told his daughter he waslike I don't really do that
counseling stuff.
You know what I'm saying Causehe had, he's like when I got
back from war, when I got backfrom my deployments, we had to
go through some mandatorycounseling.
So he's like you know what Imean, that little, that stuff
ain't for me.
So he called me.
I was, I used to be hiscommander and he called me.
He was like look, he like, look, sir, my daughter said this.
(38:27):
He said I see how you move anddo things when you were the
commander and all the peoplethat was in the office all the
time, and I was just kind ofsitting there and observing, you
know as your right hand man,and he was like so what's your
advice on this?
And so we, we talked for liketwo months every week, week nine
(38:50):
.
He was like man, my life isdifferent, man, you know I'm,
I'm.
I said bro, he's like, see, Itold I'm a, I'm a, call my
daughter, I'm like, I told you Iain't need counseling, I ain't
need no therapy.
You know what I'm saying, I'm,I'm good.
And I said I said I said, bro,we been in counseling every week
, it's not eight weeks Come on.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Well, see, listen, it looks like this hair.
It's counseling is.
It looks different foreverybody.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Thank you, that's, that's my point.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
It looks different for everybody.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
We were just having a conversation and he ain't even
know we were counseling.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
He didn't know it, and you throw in them nuggets in
there, and he's like you knowhe's getting something out of it
, you know, but a lot of it, alot of it, man, is things that
we don't deal with, yes, and wekeep it locked in.
Yes, we don't talk about it,yeah, and that's what really
kind of destroys a person.
Yeah, when they don't talkabout it, but it's, but it's
being rehearsed in a mind everysingle day.
(39:47):
So I'm so thankful that whenGod puts a person in your life
that can speak into your life,we have to make sure that that
we listen, yeah, and weunderstand what they're saying.
You know, because it looksdifferent for everybody.
Man, counseling, counseling isnot just a person sitting on on
(40:09):
the sofa and you just givingthem some some, some tidbits,
some nuggets and things likethat, and you walk out the same
way.
You know, because it's a twoway street for the therapist and
for the individual counseling.
you know, because you can cometo anybody's room.
Come on and sit there.
If you're not, you know,navigating through that stuff,
(40:29):
dealing with it, man, you leaveout the same way.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
And I dude, I've, I know you and Tina probably
experienced this, but thatstigma of counseling is, it's
always going to be there.
But I think when people fullygive themselves to it, like they
don't hold back, they just youknow what I'm saying, I'm going
to, I'm going to go all in andsee if this thing worked and if
(40:53):
it don't, then I'm, you know,I'm done.
But if you, if you just give ityour all for a few sessions,
man, like I've, I've talked topeople who was withholding
information, right, because theydidn't fully know how to put
themselves out there and receivethe help that they needed.
(41:15):
The one thing that I love aboutthe Holy Spirit is that when
you invite the Holy Spirit,you're not just inviting the
counselor, you're not justinviting Tina, you're not just
inviting Aaron, our hero, you'renot just inviting us and
withholding something from us.
(41:35):
Man, I've been in sessions wherethe Holy Spirit has revealed
some stuff and they're lookingat you like I ain't tell you who
you're talking to and I'mtalking to the Holy Spirit.
Man, I'm just praying and I'mjust seeing something in my
spirit, or the Lord is justshowing me something, or I just
feel like you know I could beoff?
(41:55):
You tell me, tell me if I'm off.
And I've seen the Holy Spiritjust break right through all the
resistance, all the the, thestereotypes and just hit it, oh
yeah.
And when you see that, I loveto see that moment where it's
like, okay, I get it, oh yeah, Ineed this Bruh.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
There's been some situations where book knowledge
couldn't help some individualsCome on.
Come on Some, some, someclinical trials and things like
that couldn't help someindividual.
It literally had to take theHoly Ghost to come into and
invade some of these sessionswhere we be, we, we at all, we'd
be like okay, guys, thank you,we needed your presence because
(42:43):
we didn't know.
Amen.
The book, knowledge is there,the clinical stuff is there, but
, man, when you invite the HolyGhost come on, it's a whole
another.
It's a whole another dynamic.
It's a whole another shift.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Man.
There's a couple of resourcesthat I lean into because making
yourself an expert in your fieldis necessary.
You know you want to have thetools that you need to pull from
them.
But I mean, one of the guysthat really I really lean into
is Mark Vickler.
He has a book called A Counselby God, and another couple
that's passed away now is Johnand Paula Sanford.
(43:17):
They allege a house prayer.
You know interhealing typepeople and you know reading
their material two differentspectrums but they both said the
same thing that stuck with me.
Both said the greatest prayerthat you can pray as a counselor
or a soul care person Lord help, oh yeah, Lord help.
(43:41):
He says when I went in, thinkingI knew the answers and I knew
what I was doing, and he saysthose was the toughest, hardest
grinding out.
But when I went in and said,lord, I'm lost, I don't know
what to do.
You're going to have to show uphelp.
Oh yeah, he says those are thesessions that I was at.
I was going at the pace ofgrace and it was just moving.
(44:05):
It was just moving, lord, helpyeah.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah, I need the.
I was like Lord I need you, Ineed the you know, because you
don't want to get into flesh.
You know yourself as atherapist or a counselor Because
it's easy.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
It's easy to do.
That's when you see so much.
Oh yeah, oh, I've seen thisbefore.
I've seen this before.
That's what you need to do One,two and three because, it
worked for the last five peoplewho was dealing with this.
So, but my situation?
No, no, no, I'll send us no Yep, but that's flesh, that's flesh
, bro.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
You know, I've seen ourself where we yield a lot.
Come on, we, just we yield tothe Holy Spirit, man, and that's
the good thing about Christiancounseling.
See, christian counseling.
You know, we allow our help tocome on, come, I feel it.
You see what?
I'm saying we allow our help tocome on.
And in the secular world it'stough to be able to do that, you
(45:01):
know.
But when you know what youexpected, you come into the.
Christian guy.
You know, in our, in ourcounseling you're like look you
know, this is what you get, youknow, and, yes, you're going to
get some, some to do, somedon'ts and things, some biblical
stuff.
Yeah, you know you're going toget all that.
Yeah, we're going to invite theHoly Ghost, yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
And the Holy.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Spirit can really do some work and do.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
I don't, I I don't want people to hear this and be
like you know what?
I'm going to just go out andstart counseling some people,
because that's just that's notright, but because I I love the
fact that we have the headknowledge in the book knowledge
(45:44):
to balance the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, because something thatyou're talking about counseling
and in the stigma is I've seen alot of people burn.
Yeah, yeah With so-calledChristian counselors who's just
practicing on people?
Yeah, and they not reallyyielded to the Holy Spirit.
They just want to make a namefor themselves, or they want to
(46:06):
feel needed, or they want tofeel a part of the situation or
the solution.
And people get burned and theirlife is in shambles because
they had a person who either onewasn't fully yielded to the
Holy Spirit or they didn't havethe knowledge to know.
Okay, you probably shouldn'thave touched that.
You probably should have calledin some reinforcements.
(46:29):
Yeah, come on, you a littleover your head with this one,
and I'm the type of person who Iam never afraid to say I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
I'm never afraid to say you know what?
Let me call somebody, oh yeah,or let me connect you with
somebody who could take you alittle bit further, because this
is, this is as far as I can go,you, you, you coming up on some
stuff that I entered into yet,absolutely, you know.
Or you coming up on some stuffthat I ain't really comfortable
with, man, me personally, man,just just venture into this
(47:04):
space.
I've had some people come to mewith me some stuff that's been
so heavy that it's it'striggered some stuff inside of
me and I'm like, oh, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, hold on, I'm
getting triggered.
Let me connect you with someonewho's more equipped, more
seasoned, more experienced tohandle this depth of care that
you need, because you just youjust highlighted some stuff that
(47:26):
I might need to go talk toAaron about, absolutely, and so
we, I never want to be in asituation where I feel like, you
know, I'm trying to help aperson that's triggering stuff
in me and then I make them worseoff because I'm responding to
my own trauma.
I get it, you know, you knowwhat?
(47:49):
No, you shouldn't, you shouldn'tforgive none of them.
You know, you know, I'm tiredof the way people like that
always think they can get overthem.
Let me tell you what you shoulddo.
You know and, and, and.
They come out of that thinglike wow, they feel validated,
but now there's no forgiveness,there's no healing, oh yeah,
(48:10):
there's just trauma on trauma,trauma comforting trauma.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yeah, yeah, you know one thing, one thing, tina we,
what we enjoy doing, we, we prayand we leave our natural
thinking at the door.
Come on, come on, because ifyou don't, you know you can, you
can kind of come into a sessionand things can trigger you as
(48:34):
individuals, because we human,we're human, you know, and if we
allow those triggers to triggerus, we can't be effective the
way we say.
We'll be effective.
That's the point.
That's the point.
So we, we definitely try toleave self at the door and every
counseling session, because I'mtelling you, if you don't, man,
you you know spirits that justkind of can, can, can grab you
(48:55):
and get, oh, but you know you,and pick that scab, and they
know the scab, the pick, andwhen they pick the scab, and
then all of a sudden y'all inthe same boat together, that's
that's that part.
In the same boat togetherTogether.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
You know what we mean ?
Yeah, we're in the same boattogether, so we ain't trying to
be doing that.
Yeah.
I have the distinct pleasure to introduce to you one
of my brothers from anothermother, same father, up in
heaven.
This guy.
Look, I'm not exaggerating whenI tell you this guy has wisdom
and experience that far, thatfar exceeds his age.
(00:23):
When I tell you he is a sageand one of these scribes that
the Bible talks about, when itcomes to breaking down complex
things and to digestible bitesize nuggets, he's an expert.
When I tell you that the man isone of my aspirations, when it
(00:44):
comes to vacation lifestyle.
When I tell you that this guycan preach like he was coming
out the womb with the wordmemorized.
This man has a word of God inhis heart and his soul.
He could take anything I don'tknow if y'all he could take
anything around him and give youa word from it.
(01:04):
I'm talking from a stop sign toa new edition group.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Come on with it now.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
I'm telling you telling you that you, if you've
never met him, if you've neverlistened to him, have you never
heard him speak, If you've neverprayed with him, you're doing
yourself, your life, yourmarriage, disservice, because he
has the tools, the spirit, theanointing to unpackage the
things that you combat the mostand help you live a life that's
(01:34):
on purpose, that's intentionaland that's life giving.
I'm talking about none otherthan my brother, my friend Aaron
AP three.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Porter.
Come on, brother.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for the invite.
Thanks for the invite.
And, man, I'm telling you youdidn't have to do all that for
me man, I love it I love it.
I'm just this dude, that's.
You know, man.
You know, I'm just another dude.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Come on, man, but I love I was telling everyone I
bring on the podcast man thatthat means a lot.
Everybody that I bring on meansa lot to me, man, but people
that I bring on, I want tointroduce them in a way that um
exhaust them while they're stillliving, because too many times
we get our flowers and our rosesafter we've gone away and we've
(02:19):
never get a chance to tell thepeople that deposited so much
into our lives how much theymean to us and how much they
affected us in a major way.
And you are one of those guysfor a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, thank you, man.
I thank you for the invite.
I know we've been trying to getget this thing started.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Oh, man, um, but it's , it's an honor and a pleasure
to be here.
Yes, um and uh, I just want togive a shout out to you, my man,
who are, uh, an entrepreneur, abusiness owner, a father, a
husband, past the hair man, youknow now, student man, you ready
, you know, just a lot of hasp,but last but not least, for
(02:58):
serving our country, uh but,indignity.
Man in honor, man.
So that means a lot to me.
So I look at that, you know,and, uh, I like to see brothers
doing things.
Yeah, you know, yeah, youremember in the hood where we
just you know the cat that youwould always have it all
together.
You know what I'm saying.
He's like man, he got it.
He got it going on, but it wasa different kind of going on
(03:20):
back then when I was running thestreets.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, I was like, yeah, but uh, I appreciate you,
man, come on what you bring intothe table.
Yes, um, uh, bring it to theworld, man, because we need this
.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
We need this.
Yes, we do, we do, we and um,you know, I.
I thank you for saying thatbecause, um, when God put this
on my heart to do this, I thinkit was the best platform for me.
Personally, I love talking,yeah, I love interacting with
people and um, and God just putme on a crash course to mental
(03:52):
health, soul care and trauma allin one, and I never thought
that would be the direction thatI will go.
I saw my life as the digitalmarketing, entrepreneurial,
laptop lifestyle guy who couldjust sell you anything, but God
(04:12):
has completely flipped that.
Man and um, I'm seeing how it'sall coming together, uh, with,
with ministry, with pastoring,with counseling, with coaching
and, um, even with teaching,yeah, yeah and um, I'm grateful
for it.
So, man, um, one of the mainreasons I wanted to have you on
is, man, we're like, uh, uh,credentialed, um, um, in the
(04:35):
area of mental health, coachingand um, do the work Like a do
all bro, like a come on, come on.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
I don't know what to expect.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Come listen, I can do .
Well, we um, and the crazy partis we.
We found ourselves in that samepath, but different ways.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
And that's God.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah and um, you know , I just I knew, I knew the Holy
spirit was real and I knewmental health was real, but I
didn't know how much of a ummental block I had with
churchifying mental health.
(05:18):
Oh, yeah, oh yeah, and all Iknew like schizophrenia and
bipolarism and and depressionand all that I knew that was a
real thing.
But because I grew up in churchand we churchify everything,
that was just a demon that needsto be casted out.
It wasn't a real psychological,neural imbalance that can be
(05:41):
scientifically proven, thatthere's something going on in
your head, in your emotions, andso, getting into this field,
man, um, I still believe there'sa spiritual component to
everything, but I also believethat God is a God of everything.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, yeah, you know, god of everything.
I mean I like how you put that,because, uh, I felt like for
years mental health and uh, inthe church was like a I'm just
like a stigma, like it was like,yeah, nobody really talked
about it, you know, nobodyreally talked about it.
Um, they spiritualizedeverything.
Everything was was sospiritualized and instead of
(06:19):
learning the person, we kind oflearned the symptom.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Come on, come on, yes , and.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I'm like symptoms.
There's a reason for thatsymptom Come on, you know what
I'm saying.
So we learned the symptoms, man, and that's just.
That's just the church way todo things.
You know, and, um, everywhere,everybody have their way of
doing things.
But I think we got to take astep back, uh, and we think
about, you know, life and whereyou've been, you know, and
(06:49):
whether or not you had trauma inyour life, you had some some
issues just growing up, family,family dynamics, all that play
into mental health.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, all of it, yeah , do something.
That, um, really connected thedots for me was the verse Uh,
it's not a versus, a combinationof versus, but when it says
there's a, there's a fruit, butwe don't deal with the fruit, we
(07:19):
deal with the root.
And so in mental health, youhave the symptoms that are the
fruit, yeah, and we think thefruit is just a behavior problem
, we think the fruit is adiscipline problem, we think the
fruit is a sanctificationproblem, but the root, yeah, of
that thing is usually trauma.
Oh, yeah, the root of thatthing is usually mental health.
(07:39):
The root of that thing isusually an environment that has
been so stressed and sotraumatic that the only way that
you survived it was to to adapta mentally unstable way of
living.
And, depending on how you lookat it, it can make you or break
you.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
It can, uh, it can, you know, it can, it can, um, it
can determine what life reallygoing to look like for you, you
know, depending on how you dealwith trauma and how you deal
with, um, uh, some unbalances inyour life.
Yeah, you know for me, you knowI, I mean, just when I think
back as a little shorty for me,uh, five years old, I saw uh, my
(08:24):
mother being domestically, justuh, my mother being
domestically, just beat you know, by my stepdad and at five
years old, seeing that, itreally kind of put a root of
fear in you at five years old.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
This is five years old.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yes, mother had me at 14, my mom's 14, which is yes
and grandmother raised me.
She gets out of the house, getinto a relationship that was not
fruitful, was not the idealrelationship and it caused some
domestic violence.
So as I grew up as a young man,I just, you know, I there was
(09:03):
things in my life that will,that will trigger me and I'm
like ooh and then fear andanxiety and things start just
kind of kind of going on and um.
So I walked through a lot ofthat and it, but it all started
at five years old bro.
Man Five, five, five you know,so it'll stick with you if you
(09:25):
don't deal with it.
Yes, it will.
It will stick with you, youknow man.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I appreciate that.
That reminds me of, uh, when Iwas in in therapy with a lady,
um from um, when I was dealingwith some stuff in my own life.
Um, she asked me there was twoquestions that like
revolutionized how I dealt withmy trauma and how I saw myself.
Yeah, and one question sheasked me is, she said, who are
(09:55):
you Without telling me what youdo?
Wow, she said tell me who youare without telling me what you
do, because what you do does notmatter to God as far as how he
sees you.
So tell me who you are withouttelling me what you do.
Because she saw, she saw in me aperformance based identity that
(10:16):
if I, if I, if, if certainpeople saw me a certain way, I
will, I will live up to thatimage.
So it was based off what I did,or where I worked, or who I,
and so that that really made medig.
And at the end of the, at theend of the, the, the sessions,
at the end of the day, it waslike no matter what I do, I'm a
(10:39):
son.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I'm a son, before anything.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
I'm a son.
And if I can't rest in mysonship to my heavenly father,
then no matter what else I,nothing else matters.
I could make all the money, Icould impact all the people, but
if I don't see myself as a son,then I will always try to earn
my way into God's good graces.
And then she asked me.
(11:01):
She said, when she didn't askme, she told me.
Once I told her my life storyand the traumatizing things that
I saw growing up, and she saidshe says, harold, what you did,
god did not condemn because youwere surviving.
(11:22):
She said.
But now she said, as a littleboy, as a teenager, you were
surviving.
She said.
But now you are a man, you area husband, you are a father.
You can't keep surviving.
Yeah, it's time for you to growup and start thriving.
(11:43):
And you can't do that if youstill are have a bit to
mentality.
You can't do that if it'severybody else fought, not yours
.
You can't do that if you don'tsee the part you played in
repeating the trauma youexperienced.
And so I was just like OK, oldlady, you coming on a little
(12:05):
hard.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That was me, that was me that was some heat, but
those things were.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Those things stuck with me so much.
It reminds me of my dad'sfavorite scripture.
My dad's favorite scripture waswhen I was a child.
I thought it was a child, Ilived as a child, you know.
I understood as a child, butwhen?
And I could be misquoted.
But this the essence is.
But Paul said, when I became aman, I put away my childish
(12:31):
things and I always thought,growing up, my dad would always
quote that and I thought, ok, Ineed to man up.
Yeah, I need to man up, I needto.
I need to stop crying so much,I need to stop, you know,
complaining so much.
I thought it meant that, ok,pull yourself up by your
bootstraps, get it together andbe a man.
(12:52):
But coming into this mentalhealth space, bro, god has
changed my view on thatscripture.
When I was a child, Iunderstood through my trauma.
Mm.
Hmm, I responded through mytrauma.
I lived a life through the lensof trauma, yeah, but when I
(13:18):
become a man, the only way Icould become a man is if I do
the work to get to deal with thetrauma, yeah, and not allow the
trauma to keep dealing with me.
Oh, yeah, that's good, and so Ihave to put away my childish
things.
The Holy Spirit said what doesyour childhood represent?
It's like being a kid.
(13:40):
No, no, no, no, no.
What does your childhood when I, when my word, says, put away
your childish things, mm hmm.
What does your childhoodrepresent?
And that hit hall?
Yeah, loneliness.
Mm hmm.
Misunderstanding, yeah,awkwardness, but most
importantly, trauma, mm hmm.
So the Holy Spirit was likewhen you put away those things,
(14:03):
not hide them, not ignore them,but when you deal with them in a
healthy way and no longer havethem on the forefront of who you
are.
This is who I am, mm hmm, I'mthe misunderstood one.
I'm the traumatized one.
I'm the one who didn't nobodylike.
I'm the one that nobodylistened to.
He said no, no, put that away,yeah, and be the man that I've
called you to be.
(14:24):
Yeah.
That's like whoa that's that's,that's heat, man.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
That's.
That's a lot of some heat tothat.
Um, there's a scripture that Ialways like to um kind of
express it's.
It reads like this it says so aman thinketh so was he.
Yeah, and I think, as, as men,we sometimes can think, we think
we're thinking like a man, butwe're thinking like that little
(14:47):
five year old boy- Come on, comeon.
Like a five year boy up untiluh shucks all the way through
high school, I feel like becauseI had fear, I had anxiety, I
had worry.
It was all that stuff was justbut, but.
But what you're saying?
I disguised it, you know, withsome kind of uh, uh, uh.
My thought was healthy andparents were running around with
(15:10):
all the women or hanging outwith all these relationships.
They didn't really mean much,so I was hiding it, but I was
still thinking like a little boy, a five year boy Yep.
And I had to um express to allof our clients like so a man
thinketh.
So was he.
So what are you thinking onCome?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
on.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
And, and and.
How do you go about your day?
Are you thinking like thatperson that was abused or hurt,
or are you thinking about whereyou going?
Yes, and and, and what God hasput inside of you, man?
Because I'm telling you, man,as men, we, we have a lot to be
thankful for, as men of God, um,especially as, as, as husbands,
(15:49):
as fathers man and we take alot for granted, I feel like as
men you know, and we're soworried about the pain and the
struggle and we forget aboutwhat's in front of us.
man, and and I had to, I had tolater on in life, understand
that it's more to it than thatfive little boy, five year old
(16:10):
boy, that that experience all ofthat in his life.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
So I had to make a change.
Yeah, yeah, man, that's had tomake change.
That that reminds me of thatreminds me of a song by my
favorite rap artist, kb KevinBurgess.
Kb, his song, daddy.
I pulled up the lyrics.
(16:35):
I'm going to read them here.
He says the scars you leftbehind with me left me so messed
up I don't know how to be free.
Hmm.
But the part I wanted to saywas he said Daddy, uh no, he
(16:55):
says I can't trust enough to.
He says, even if she shows meshe trusts me, I can't trust
enough to know that she won'thurt me like you did.
Hmm, His relationship with hisdad affected his relationship
with his own woman, becausethat's where we get that
security and that you know that,the foundational things.
(17:15):
But what really messed me up ishe said Daddy, did you know
I've been a therapy.
Then he says Abandonments, thewords she used for me.
But at least I've named thething that hinders me.
Now I can finally find a way tolive in peace.
So no more excuses here for me.
But another verse that thatmessed me up, because I bear
(17:38):
witness with this whole thing,but this one.
He says um, did you know Iremember the day, remember the
year in my age?
Did you know I remembers mom'sface, the way she cried will
never be erased from my head andI'm like dude, as man.
(18:04):
We carry so much trauma but wecan't.
We feel like we can't expressit, because if we do that, then
we being weak.
If we do that, then we being,you know, emotional.
If we do that, then we're not.
We're not being there for thepeople we need to be there with.
But what I like at the end ofthe song is he says daddy, did
(18:29):
you know, um, that I prayed andhow much I miss you?
I still do.
He says, but I'll let go.
Oh, here it is.
Here it is, here it is.
He says we are on a journey,daddy, and he said are you ever
(18:50):
proud of me?
Do you ever smile at me?
My boys, they won't ever feelthis pain.
I could not replace you, eventhough I prayed to daddy, did
you know I still do?
No, how much I missed you and Istill do.
He said, but, daddy, I'll letyou go.
(19:10):
He says I'll let you go, I'mfine, I'm a man now I forgive.
I forgive you, daddy.
He, what I love about that songwas what you, what we're
talking about, is he equatedmanhood to forgiveness.
(19:33):
How many little boys arewalking around because they
whole known the things that theywon't forgive people love, and
so they act very immature, isvery childish, very, you know,
adolescent, because they haven'tlearned to walk in continual
forgiveness.
I was talking to a guy the otherday.
(19:55):
He says, man, I really can'tget over this person.
And I say why?
He says I forgiven them, but Ikeep getting triggered by what
they did to me.
And I said, well, they forgivehim again.
He said but I already triedthat forgiveness thing.
That don't work, so I'm gonnajust have to hold on to this and
(20:17):
just like move differently.
And so what that said to me wasa lot, and this was a Christian
guy.
What I told him was man,forgiveness isn't a one time act
.
Forgiveness is like the onionman.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Boy, you got to be like, you peel a layer and you
get you wipe your eyes, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
But by the time you get to another layer, it's new
tears, New tears, bro.
And so you got to keep wipingyour eyes in the symbolism of
forgiveness.
So when you peel that onion andyou get it to another label
that that stings, you chooseforgiveness.
That forgiveness then wipesyour eyes.
You're like, okay, I feel alittle better on placing this at
Jesus feet.
And then you some time goaround and you get triggered
(21:00):
again and there's more tearsbecause there's another layer
and so we have to continuallywalk.
Oh yeah, I think about thescripture when the disciple said
man, how many times we got toforget this guy You're like
getting 70 times seven orwhatever you know, that's a lot.
That's a lot bro and we as men,we physically we can carry, you
(21:27):
know, and emotionally andpsychologically we can carry a
lot.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, yeah, man, I look at it like this man.
It's a lot of grown men walkingaround like toddlers.
Yes, like we, I mean like thetoddler syndrome.
Man, I mean this, mind youcan't have this Yep.
You know, ready to fight it atthe drop of a hat this is mine,
you know, yep, instead ofgrowing up growing through it.
(21:55):
So, but forgiveness is the key,though.
It opens up the door, yes, to awhole lot of freedom.
Yeah, and you know, we'vewalked through some stuff with
individuals like, okay, it goesback to forgiving, we're gonna
walk you through this process,because a lot of times you gotta
go back and deal with it, yep,okay, and once you walk through
(22:15):
that process, but the ultimategoal is to forgive.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It's not to hold on.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yes, it's not to keep it in your pocket it's not to
quote unquote, just say no, thisis mine, because I've carried
it so long.
You know what I'm saying.
And some folk, man, they carrystuff so long that it just
begins to be just like it's justthem.
Yep, it's like, you know, wegot five senses, they got that
(22:41):
six.
You know, it's like it's justthat sixth thing, that's them
right, because they never justsay you know what I gotta get,
let this thing go.
They don't know who they arewithout it.
That's good.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Man, that's so good man.
I am so appreciative forInspire Hope Counseling man.
Inspire Hope Counseling is amuch needed ministry for people
who don't know what to do, butthey know they need to do
something.
Yeah, it's like I don't knowwhat to do but I know what I'm
doing ain't right and I can'tfix it myself.
I need some help.
(23:13):
And I'm so appreciative for youand your wife's ministry.
I'm so appreciative with thethings that you guys do for
families, that's, lost childrenwith the AP3 Foundation.
Like man, like dude, it's justif you and your wife could just
share all the testimonies thatyou've seen people, there
(23:35):
wouldn't be room enough.
It's just to go on and on andon, because God is just so good
yes, he is, and how he dealswith people.
Man, I wanna share this man andwe'll shift gears.
But when we talk about what yousaid the toddler syndrome and
(23:56):
when people don't give, somebodyasked me a while ago, harold,
why do you forgive so easily?
Because they had learned aboutsome stuff that I had
experienced.
They was like, no, that personwould've been dead to me.
Like you better not dapped meup, you better not come in for a
hug.
(24:16):
But we can't even go to thesame church after you did what
you did, and they was like howin the world do you forgive so
easily?
And the only thing I could say,man, is that I've been forgiven
much.
Yeah yeah, it was so easy forthe Lord to forgive me.
Dare I not extend the samegrace to someone else?
(24:39):
Come on, those who have beenforgiven much can forgive much,
but if you feel like ain'tnobody really forgiving you for
nothing, then you feel like youhave a right to hold people to
stuff that you like.
Come on, man.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Man, some stuff we done.
Just think about it past Haroldgrowing up.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
We've done some stuff that we should've been judged
by Come on, our whole lifestyleshould be shifted.
It should be.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I mean, I mean I shouldn't be sitting here, right
now, come on, I'm like bro, I'mlike some stuff we done, walked
through Some things that itwould have been like, but the
Lord said no, no, no, no, no.
I got a different path for you.
Come on, I got a different pathfor you and I will allow you to
walk through that stuff so youcan reach back and grab another
(25:30):
brother, another sister like ifI made it, you could make it.
If I grew up in that same hoodyou grew up in Come on, come on
the same hood.
So if I can make it, you canmake it too.
So, but that forgiveness man isso man.
It's got so much weight, somuch heat to it.
Because if we can only forgiveand my wife says it like this
(25:53):
she's like so if Jesus forgive,how come you can't Come on?
She know how to hit you in thegut, I mean.
And she'd be like if Jesusforgave you of your sin, how
come you can't Come on?
It makes sense, you know, andthere's some some heavy stuff
(26:14):
that people go through and Idon't want you to give me you
know there's some we don't.
We don't minimize it, heavystuff and and I'm not trying to
minimize that by no shape orfashion yeah, but at the end of
the day, mm-hmm, as Christianbelievers, as blood wash
Christians that say, you knowwhat they're, same grace that
(26:34):
you've received, that I received.
Come on, it's available foreverybody.
Yes, it doesn't have a.
It doesn't matter what yourskin color is, yep, but I'm not
what you.
You know what the economy isbringing up.
Economically, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Grace is sufficient for everybody in his forgiveness
and the Bible says that it'snew every morning every morning.
You wake up and it's a cleanslate new grace, new mercies.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Bra, it's not so.
That's so, man, that's so good,dude, you think about that how
good that is.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Jesus is like you acted a plum food last night,
bro, but today is a new day.
I'll give you new mercies, newgrace, new mercies, new grace.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
So I love new mercies , new grace, because it's
renewed every morning, every day, yep, you know, and we don't
have to Walk through some thingsthat we walk through and just
be like okay, it's, there's no,there's no hope.
I gotta earn my grace back,because there's individuals that
walk like that.
Yeah, and as coaches, you know,as mental health coaches, we
(27:36):
gotta coach people through that.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
That's right we do, because, because it's our
Decision, we have to decide thatI'm going to accept and receive
that new mercy and a new graceand I'm gonna live accordingly.
Because just because it's theredon't mean you put it on and
walk with it.
Come on, you could walk rightthrough it.
Yeah, white, right past it.
Yeah, man, I heard, I heard Tytribute say this and it blew my
(28:00):
mind.
He was speaking at a conferenceand he said have you ever
thought about the tree in thegarden?
And Every he said.
He said Salvation is a freegift, unproved, hmm, meaning you
(28:21):
don't have to earn it, youdon't have to prove it, you
don't have it's unproved, yeahyeah, but.
If you take, like the, the treein the garden, every time Adam
and Eve walk past the tree anddidn't eat, they were proving
their Themselves to God, theywere acting.
And he says every morning newgrace, new mercy, to walk past
(28:41):
and not purchase.
But one day, yeah, you knowwhat, I don't need no more mercy
and grace.
I'm gonna just ignore the mercyand grace and I'm gonna just be
like I wonder what that be like.
And so that new mercy, that newgrace is, is our decision, man
and as as coaches, what I'velearned in the mental health
(29:02):
space Is that we don't so muchas tell people what they need to
do, as much as we ask the rightquestions.
Yeah and they come to thoseconclusions on themselves
because they see and understandthe truth behind it.
Yeah, that's deep man.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I mean that's that's some seriousness behind it
because you have to ask theright questions.
Yes, because I feel like if wedon't ask the right questions,
you can wound somebody not evenand not even knowing it.
You know and I and you gottathink back.
What did I really say?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, so if you're not asking the right questions,
man, you can be detrimental tosome folk yes, some folk and and
dude that and that all that allcomes back to the forgiveness
aspect Is because when we chooseforgiveness, we're not so much
as choosing to forgive for theirsake as we're choosing to
forgive for our sake.
Oh yeah, because if we chooseunforgiveness, I'm not gonna
(30:01):
forgive you and so I'm going tolive my life in a way that Keeps
your own, keeps myunforgiveness towards you front
center.
Yeah, I can't move in certainways because that would mean I'm
gonna be Too much grace.
Yeah, so I gotta keep myselfconfined so that you know that I
don't forgive you.
But but when we chooseforgiveness, man, that allows us
(30:21):
, man, the best way I heard itwas when we forgive someone, we
release them and to to moveFreely.
And that forgiveness, oh yeah,meaning when I say I forgive you
and I release you To live inthat freedom, yeah, meaning you
may wound me again, yeah, youmay cut me again, like you make.
(30:44):
You know it may not be all, butby the act of me doing that I'm
not cutting my own self off,yeah, from receiving
Relationship and love andforgiveness into.
And so, man, that thatforgiveness piece is, is
important and we can, we couldtalk all day about Absolutely,
because there's so many levelsand layers to forgiveness that I
mean books upon books uponbooks have been written about
(31:07):
forgiveness, and this is a keyfactor, absolutely, but Real
good.
I'm pausing, so let's switchgears for a little bit and I
just want to ask you just what'ssome you know From the work
(31:29):
that you've been doing and yourwife's been doing, and just some
things you've been noticing andseeing Spiritually.
What's some, what's some thingsthat God's been really
highlighting to you as far asyou know mental health, our
Spiritual warfare.
However, it may be that that wecan use to to do the work In
(31:52):
our, in our daily walk, man, Ithink, most importantly, I feel
like that Counseling has been Astigma.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I would say to many of us, yes, yes, especially in
the African-American man youknow community.
I feel like man, you know, yousay counseling oh.
I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
You know, community.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
I feel like man, you know.
You say counseling.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Therapist.
What are you?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
kidding me.
Good, you know what goes in thehouse, so stays in the house.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah mindset.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
well, you know a lot of that is is, but we'll put
more focus on cars and shoes,but we won't put no focus on our
spiritual health, man, yeah youknow, yeah.
So I'm finding out when I'msitting in in a counseling room
that Sometimes people think moreabout the things that the you
(32:51):
know like they're the shoes,cars, and they put more value
come on, value Bro come on thatversus value into their
spiritual health and the mentalhealth, and and we literally
have to pause a minute and justsay look, yeah, do you realize
where you are?
You know, dude, do you realizewhere you are come?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
on.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah, and I Feel like you know, I know we can't put
cost on everything.
Money is, you know, andsomething.
Well, I can't afford counseling.
Well, it ain't about what youcan't afford.
Yeah, you know, you know.
So we, we go, we hear a lot ofthat man and again it's more the
understanding of counseling.
(33:32):
I feel like I feel like some ofus don't really understand the
value of yeah.
Yeah, you know the hope that itbrings.
Yeah, you know.
And on the church side ofthings, I feel like a Lot of us
feel like the pastor, the seniorpastor, has to do all the work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they got tobe the counselor.
(33:53):
They got a barrier.
That Mary.
Yeah, they do all cut the grass.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
You be on your death bed.
I'm all senior pastor that prayfor me.
No, go get the senior pastorgot two minutes to live.
Tell him to hurry up.
You know you know, you know youwant that.
You want the senior pastor todo premarital.
You want the senior pastor tomarry you.
You want the senior pastor todo post marital counseling,
(34:17):
because the premarital that you,he did what you, you didn't
listen to.
So now you need him to Counselthe stuff that you've got
yourself into because you didn'tlisten the first time.
And then you want the pastorthat you know they do the the
marriage counseling, the familycounseling, and and then when
you find out what I need, mm-hmm, I need him do that too.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, it's, it's so.
God has gifted the body ofChrist man.
Yeah, just certain individualswith the call, you know as a
therapist as a counselor.
Yeah, yeah, yeah there's aspace for therapy in the church.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Man man, I think, I think the the church is Starting
to catch up, mm-hmm to wherethe world has already realized.
Oh which grieves me in a way.
It grieves me in a way, andwhat I mean by that is that my
counterparts in the secularworld understand the importance
(35:14):
of counsel in therapy a Lot oftimes greater than.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
People in the church.
Well, you know, I had onebrother said man, you know,
counseling ain't for me.
I'm like oh, you know, you'regonna have to elaborate yeah
counseling is not for everybody.
Yeah, yeah and I had to take a.
I said listen.
I said um wasn't Jesus thewonderful counselor?
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Come on, say it.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
I said, was Jesus the wonderful counselor?
So you mean to tell me thatJesus ain't for everybody?
I mean, you gotta talk aboutthis to me.
So when I point blank, kindajust sign up, I wasn't trying to
be all arrogant about it, buthe understood where I was coming
from Because he had you knowwhat man?
(36:01):
You right, he was the wonderfulcounselor.
He is the wonderful counselor,as a matter of fact, and we
can't do what we do withoutJesus, dude, we can't.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
I think the greatest stigma to counseling and therapy
, and even mental healthcoaching, is that what people
perceive it to look like.
Ooh Dog, I ain't trying to layon no couch and tell you my
problems, right?
I ain't trying to.
You know what I'm saying.
You know I had this soldier dude.
He's in his 50s and he calledme up.
(36:35):
He got divorced and he was witha new girl who was crazy, you
know.
She told him you know I've beendiagnosed with bipolar
schizophrenia, but I pretty muchgot it under control for the
most part and so he was like manyou gotta watch down.
I got another control now.
He said man, so he was in arelationship with a girl and
(37:02):
they've had a few disagreementsand fights and stuff.
And his daughter said Dad, Ithink you now this is his
daughter, she's about 20, 1920.
And she said Dad, I think youjumped into this prematurely,
(37:23):
you ain't really dealt with allthe stuff mom did.
And he was like what she said.
She said cause she was goingoff to college.
She was like dad, I'm leavingthe house.
She felt like she was keepinghim together and she said dad,
I'm leaving the house and I wantyou to promise me that you're
(37:44):
gonna go help Cause he told hisdaughter, he said I'm breaking
up with girl, she gotta, shegotta bounce Like this ain't
working out.
And his daughter was likethat's because I think you had
some undoubted with stuff fromwhen mom, that just it wasn't
gonna work from the beginning.
(38:04):
And he told his daughter he waslike I don't really do that
counseling stuff.
You know what I'm saying Causehe had, he's like when I got
back from war, when I got backfrom my deployments, we had to
go through some mandatorycounseling.
So he's like you know what Imean, that little, that stuff
ain't for me.
So he called me.
I was, I used to be hiscommander and he called me.
He was like look, he like, look, sir, my daughter said this.
(38:27):
He said I see how you move anddo things when you were the
commander and all the peoplethat was in the office all the
time, and I was just kind ofsitting there and observing, you
know as your right hand man,and he was like so what's your
advice on this?
And so we, we talked for liketwo months every week, week nine
(38:50):
.
He was like man, my life isdifferent, man, you know I'm,
I'm.
I said bro, he's like, see, Itold I'm a, I'm a, call my
daughter, I'm like, I told you Iain't need counseling, I ain't
need no therapy.
You know what I'm saying, I'm,I'm good.
And I said I said I said, bro,we been in counseling every week
, it's not eight weeks Come on.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Well, see, listen, it looks like this hair.
It's counseling is.
It looks different foreverybody.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Thank you, that's, that's my point.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
It looks different for everybody.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
We were just having a conversation and he ain't even
know we were counseling.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
He didn't know it, and you throw in them nuggets in
there, and he's like you knowhe's getting something out of it
, you know, but a lot of it, alot of it, man, is things that
we don't deal with, yes, and wekeep it locked in.
Yes, we don't talk about it,yeah, and that's what really
kind of destroys a person.
Yeah, when they don't talkabout it, but it's, but it's
being rehearsed in a mind everysingle day.
(39:47):
So I'm so thankful that whenGod puts a person in your life
that can speak into your life,we have to make sure that that
we listen, yeah, and weunderstand what they're saying.
You know, because it looksdifferent for everybody.
Man, counseling, counseling isnot just a person sitting on on
(40:09):
the sofa and you just givingthem some some, some tidbits,
some nuggets and things likethat, and you walk out the same
way.
You know, because it's a twoway street for the therapist and
for the individual counseling.
you know, because you can cometo anybody's room.
Come on and sit there.
If you're not, you know,navigating through that stuff,
(40:29):
dealing with it, man, you leaveout the same way.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
And I dude, I've, I know you and Tina probably
experienced this, but thatstigma of counseling is, it's
always going to be there.
But I think when people fullygive themselves to it, like they
don't hold back, they just youknow what I'm saying, I'm going
to, I'm going to go all in andsee if this thing worked and if
(40:53):
it don't, then I'm, you know,I'm done.
But if you, if you just give ityour all for a few sessions,
man, like I've, I've talked topeople who was withholding
information, right, because theydidn't fully know how to put
themselves out there and receivethe help that they needed.
(41:15):
The one thing that I love aboutthe Holy Spirit is that when
you invite the Holy Spirit,you're not just inviting the
counselor, you're not justinviting Tina, you're not just
inviting Aaron, our hero, you'renot just inviting us and
withholding something from us.
(41:35):
Man, I've been in sessions wherethe Holy Spirit has revealed
some stuff and they're lookingat you like I ain't tell you who
you're talking to and I'mtalking to the Holy Spirit.
Man, I'm just praying and I'mjust seeing something in my
spirit, or the Lord is justshowing me something, or I just
feel like you know I could beoff?
(41:55):
You tell me, tell me if I'm off.
And I've seen the Holy Spiritjust break right through all the
resistance, all the the, thestereotypes and just hit it, oh
yeah.
And when you see that, I loveto see that moment where it's
like, okay, I get it, oh yeah, Ineed this Bruh.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
There's been some situations where book knowledge
couldn't help some individualsCome on.
Come on Some, some, someclinical trials and things like
that couldn't help someindividual.
It literally had to take theHoly Ghost to come into and
invade some of these sessionswhere we be, we, we at all, we'd
be like okay, guys, thank you,we needed your presence because
(42:43):
we didn't know.
Amen.
The book, knowledge is there,the clinical stuff is there, but
, man, when you invite the HolyGhost come on, it's a whole
another.
It's a whole another dynamic.
It's a whole another shift.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Man.
There's a couple of resourcesthat I lean into because making
yourself an expert in your fieldis necessary.
You know you want to have thetools that you need to pull from
them.
But I mean, one of the guysthat really I really lean into
is Mark Vickler.
He has a book called A Counselby God, and another couple
that's passed away now is Johnand Paula Sanford.
(43:17):
They allege a house prayer.
You know interhealing typepeople and you know reading
their material two differentspectrums but they both said the
same thing that stuck with me.
Both said the greatest prayerthat you can pray as a counselor
or a soul care person Lord help, oh yeah, Lord help.
(43:41):
He says when I went in, thinkingI knew the answers and I knew
what I was doing, and he saysthose was the toughest, hardest
grinding out.
But when I went in and said,lord, I'm lost, I don't know
what to do.
You're going to have to show uphelp.
Oh yeah, he says those are thesessions that I was at.
I was going at the pace ofgrace and it was just moving.
(44:05):
It was just moving, lord, helpyeah.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah, I need the.
I was like Lord I need you, Ineed the you know, because you
don't want to get into flesh.
You know yourself as atherapist or a counselor Because
it's easy.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
It's easy to do.
That's when you see so much.
Oh yeah, oh, I've seen thisbefore.
I've seen this before.
That's what you need to do One,two and three because, it
worked for the last five peoplewho was dealing with this.
So, but my situation?
No, no, no, I'll send us no Yep, but that's flesh, that's flesh
, bro.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
You know, I've seen ourself where we yield a lot.
Come on, we, just we yield tothe Holy Spirit, man, and that's
the good thing about Christiancounseling.
See, christian counseling.
You know, we allow our help tocome on, come, I feel it.
You see what?
I'm saying we allow our help tocome on.
And in the secular world it'stough to be able to do that, you
(45:01):
know.
But when you know what youexpected, you come into the.
Christian guy.
You know, in our, in ourcounseling you're like look you
know, this is what you get, youknow, and, yes, you're going to
get some, some to do, somedon'ts and things, some biblical
stuff.
Yeah, you know you're going toget all that.
Yeah, we're going to invite theHoly Ghost, yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
And the Holy.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Spirit can really do some work and do.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
I don't, I I don't want people to hear this and be
like you know what?
I'm going to just go out andstart counseling some people,
because that's just that's notright, but because I I love the
fact that we have the headknowledge in the book knowledge
(45:44):
to balance the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, because something thatyou're talking about counseling
and in the stigma is I've seen alot of people burn.
Yeah, yeah With so-calledChristian counselors who's just
practicing on people?
Yeah, and they not reallyyielded to the Holy Spirit.
They just want to make a namefor themselves, or they want to
(46:06):
feel needed, or they want tofeel a part of the situation or
the solution.
And people get burned and theirlife is in shambles because
they had a person who either onewasn't fully yielded to the
Holy Spirit or they didn't havethe knowledge to know.
Okay, you probably shouldn'thave touched that.
You probably should have calledin some reinforcements.
(46:29):
Yeah, come on, you a littleover your head with this one,
and I'm the type of person who Iam never afraid to say I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
I'm never afraid to say you know what?
Let me call somebody, oh yeah,or let me connect you with
somebody who could take you alittle bit further, because this
is, this is as far as I can go,you, you, you coming up on some
stuff that I entered into yet,absolutely, you know.
Or you coming up on some stuffthat I ain't really comfortable
with, man, me personally, man,just just venture into this
(47:04):
space.
I've had some people come to mewith me some stuff that's been
so heavy that it's it'striggered some stuff inside of
me and I'm like, oh, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, hold on, I'm
getting triggered.
Let me connect you with someonewho's more equipped, more
seasoned, more experienced tohandle this depth of care that
you need, because you just youjust highlighted some stuff that
(47:26):
I might need to go talk toAaron about, absolutely, and so
we, I never want to be in asituation where I feel like, you
know, I'm trying to help aperson that's triggering stuff
in me and then I make them worseoff because I'm responding to
my own trauma.
I get it, you know, you knowwhat?
(47:49):
No, you shouldn't, you shouldn'tforgive none of them.
You know, you know, I'm tiredof the way people like that
always think they can get overthem.
Let me tell you what you shoulddo.
You know and, and, and.
They come out of that thinglike wow, they feel validated,
but now there's no forgiveness,there's no healing, oh yeah,
(48:10):
there's just trauma on trauma,trauma comforting trauma.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yeah, yeah, you know one thing, one thing, tina we,
what we enjoy doing, we, we prayand we leave our natural
thinking at the door.
Come on, come on, because ifyou don't, you know you can, you
can kind of come into a sessionand things can trigger you as
(48:34):
individuals, because we human,we're human, you know, and if we
allow those triggers to triggerus, we can't be effective the
way we say.
We'll be effective.
That's the point.
That's the point.
So we, we definitely try toleave self at the door and every
counseling session, because I'mtelling you, if you don't, man,
you you know spirits that justkind of can, can, can grab you
(48:55):
and get, oh, but you know you,and pick that scab, and they
know the scab, the pick, andwhen they pick the scab, and
then all of a sudden y'all inthe same boat together, that's
that's that part.
In the same boat togetherTogether.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
You know what we mean ?
Yeah, we're in the same boattogether, so we ain't trying to
be doing that.
Yeah.
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