#28 Judge thy neighbor

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[clip] I think I'd prefer to have things on the commend side, positive judgments of people, and then

(00:21):
I'd like to be at the very farthest on the negative side, neutral.
That's where I'd like to be.
I don't want to be on the, I mean, it doesn't feel good.
I think that's my problem is I don't feel good when I'm thinking about negative things.
[introduction] Hello, everyone.

(00:41):
I'm here with my dad and we're recording another conversation for our podcast.
Our podcast is Do You Have a Minute?
And today we're going to talk about all of the judgments that I hold.
You specifically.
Me specifically.
We're not going to specifically talk about the judgments, but we're going to talk about

(01:03):
how it feels like I hold a lot of judgments for people.
A very personal call today.
[main conversation] We're reading, you and I are reading a book.
We're going to be talking about a book in about a month.
Maybe no, it's got to be what?
Seven weeks from now.

(01:24):
We've got a bit of time.
I'm just through the first part.
The book is The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
And the first part is just illuminating like how we got to work on ourselves first before
we start trying to work on like our inside self before we start working on our outside
self.

(01:45):
And that's kind of kind of showing me that.
So judgments.
My judgments are something that I need to work on.
They're an inside self thing then.
Yeah.
You're identifying.
Right.
Right.
Inside being judgmental is what that's a bad thing.
If you're a judgmental person, then that's bad.

(02:08):
Right.
That's my first question.
That's my first question is why is judgment always bad?
Yeah.
Anytime you say judgment, it means that you're on a negative side of life.
Why?
Why is that?
Why is judgment a negative word?
Yeah.
Good question.
It's not a negative process.
It's a process of trying to identify truth, I believe.

(02:28):
Is that right?
So right.
If you're a judge, then you're trying to identify the truth of a matter.
If you're like, you know, if you're a judge of the court.
A judge in the court is just trying to identify the truth or, yeah, I know that in a court

(02:48):
setting.
How does that go?
How does judgment occur in a court?
The two sides present their facts as they know it.
And then the judge judges whether one side is more right or justified or deserves, you
know, compensation for what the other side did.
Okay.

(03:10):
And it's all in the past.
It's all historical.
So that's why in judging, are you always just looking at the wake?
Can you ever look at what's happening right now?
Or is it just the wake?
It's what happened in the past that you have to judge.
That's the way courts operate is they're judging something in the past.
Yeah.
Maybe when you judge someone's character that you're constantly scrutinizing what's happening

(03:34):
in front of you.
Maybe.
I don't know.
You're taking a really long time to answer.
That's a snap judgment.
Yeah.
Because you've opened up, there's eight tentacles to this octopus and now we're trying to see
which one to follow.
Okay.
So one of those judging in the past, but snap judgments.
What do they say that you have just a second when you meet someone new?

(03:56):
It's not a snap judgment.
It's a first impression.
Oh, yes.
First impressions.
Meet someone new.
You have a first impression that you're making a judgment quickly just based on what they're
wearing or how they present themselves, how they walk, how they said that.
You've got a judgment, you can identify a lot about that person just from 30 seconds
with them.
Yeah.
And you have a place that you put them based on your judgment of that first impression.

(04:23):
So is the judgment itself just a neutral thing that happens?
It's going to happen no matter what and it's neutral and then you can take it positive
or negative from there.
Okay.
Something that's going to happen.
So and I just said, is it something that just happens?

(04:43):
Yeah.
It may be.
Maybe that's exactly what I said.
You can determine whether it's positive or negative.
So is it possible to not judgment?
Can you...
Is it possible to not judge?
Yeah.
Can you meet someone for the first time and not have any idea about what they are or who
they are?

(05:04):
Is that even possible?
To have a first impression but not have a first impression.
I think that's a good point.
It's not.
It's not possible to not have a first impression.
Right.
I'm thinking that just the fact that you can name it a judgment or you can say, I didn't
judge you.
You judge them by saying, I didn't judge you.

(05:26):
It's like an inaction is an action.
A non-decision is a decision.
A non-judgment is a judgment.
Okay.
So judgments happen all the time.
It's just when we talk about them, when you think about the judgments you're doing and
saying I'm feeling bad about it, you feel bad about it because you think they're all
negative.
Because I'm thinking I'm creating a negative meaning from the judgment that I had.

(05:50):
Creating a negative meaning.
It does mean negative.
Do you ever state positive judgment?
So I'm thinking the only judgment you're going to hold or espouse or state or say is if it's
negative.
Are you ever going to say a positive judgment?
I think you could judge someone's character to be something negative.

(06:11):
That person seems to me that he's got a good head on his shoulders or that person seems
very responsible.
I love that this person's always punctual.
That's a personal perspective judgment of what they're doing, who they are.
You've just given a lot of positive, everything you said there was a positive judgment.

(06:31):
Yeah.
Wouldn't that be right then?
Yeah.
So what's that called?
You're not saying, you're not telling, okay, here's my judgment for you.
You've got a good head on your shoulders.
Yeah.
You don't say here's my judgment.
You don't say judgment.
You don't use the word judgment.
What word do you use?
You call it opinion?
A compliment probably.
Oh, a compliment.

(06:51):
A compliment is a positive spin of a judgment that you created.
It's a positive judgment.
So a compliment is the opposite on the spectrum, on the dualism, the spectrum of judgments.
You got a negative judgment, which is called a judgment.
You've got a positive judgment, which I believe is called a compliment.
You're going to compliment their actions.

(07:11):
It's a compliment if you say it out loud.
Is it a compliment if you keep it to yourself?
If you're thinking, I really like this person because I'm judging them to be fair or I'm
judging them to be...
Okay, so how do you say that to yourself?
I have...
I'm judging this person to be a fair person with a good head on his shoulders.

(07:34):
He knows what he's talking about.
Yeah.
So how do you frame that in your brain?
I don't think that most people consciously frame that in their brain.
That just is a subconscious thing that happens.
That...
Well, and why would you hold it?
You wouldn't mind being in their presence again.
You can't wait to see them again.

(07:55):
I look forward to our next meeting.
If you're saying that, what are you...
Can't wait for our next meeting.
It's still a compliment, I think.
You're complimenting...
Secretly?
You're secretly complimenting them to yourself?
Yeah, you don't have to state a compliment.
You can state a compliment.
You can state a judgment.
You don't have to state a negative judgment either.
So your positive judgment, your compliments, you don't have to give out.

(08:19):
Yeah, you said that judgment and compliment are two ends of the spectrum.
I think it's a judgment spectrum and one end is compliment and maybe the other end is condemnation.
You're condemning someone.
Okay.
So the judgment spectrum has the two ends, compliment and condemnation.
Compliment condemn.
I don't know if it's compliment though.

(08:40):
I mean, condemn feels better.
What's the opposite of condemn?
So you're going to condemn someone or you're going to promote them or support them?
Support.
Now that feels good.
Support or promote.
So on the positive side, is there a judgment spectrum?
Maybe we should see what AI says about that.

(09:01):
Okay.
See what it says.
Spectrum of decision-making.
Decision-making, that's what a judgment is.
It's a decision.
Maybe the opposite of condemn would be endorse or commend.
Yeah, commend.
Condemnation.
A condemnation or a commendation.

(09:22):
Yeah, this spectrum idea just tended to autism or decision spectrum.
So not necessarily a judgment.
You can't use the word spectrum online because it's only autistic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Online puts you...
So maybe I should go to incognito mode and figure out what it is without all of my autism

(09:43):
searches.
That's illuminating.
Yeah.
Right.
Does mom ever use your computer?
No.
No.
Okay.
She knows everything about that already anyway.
She doesn't need to search anymore.
Oh, all right.
By saying that out loud, does mom ever use your computer?
That's a condemnation of my mother that I hold.

(10:08):
Yeah, because you automatically made a judgment that she's the one that's more interested
in autistic spectrums than I am.
Sometimes it feels like that is overtaking our lives, is the conversation around everyone
that might be autistic or has ADHD.

(10:31):
And so I don't like that.
It's a negative thing to me.
So now I'm condemning mom for doing that.
But really it's a neutral thing, right?
It's a fact.
I don't know.
It's not neutral.
There's probably no neutrals, but the effect on it is what effect you choose to place on

(10:56):
it, whether you move it towards the condemnation side of your spectrum or the commendation side.
It's commendable that she's considering that.
And you could say the same thing.
You have some person focused on studying autism and spectrums and how far someone is on that
spectrum.
That's a good thing.

(11:17):
So you could commend them.
You've done some great study there and you've used my computer and you've made my computer
think that that's the only thing in the world.
So that's one way to think about it.
Positively, or you could think negatively, I have no interest in that.
And since I have no interest in that, I'm condemning that person for wasting all of

(11:38):
their time on SpongeBob videos or whatever.
Whatever it is that they're interested in that I think is a waste of time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a judgment if it's football.
The Super Bowl is coming up sometime soon.
I'm likely to watch that even though it's a waste of time.

(12:00):
It's a condemnation, an act of condemnation that I'm performing in my head.
And it was a snap judgment, right?
It's something you currently hold.
Yeah.
Snap judgment though.
So that's making the word judgment a negative word.
When you say snap judgment, it's negative.

(12:22):
Only because it's a condemnation.
You could have a snap judgment that, well, what do you love that someone does?
Someone does something and you love that they do that.
I have a friend who plays cello with a local orchestra.
Okay.
Is it an orchestra?
Yeah, it's an orchestra.

(12:43):
Yeah.
And I love that they're so dedicated to it.
I think it's admirable that they hold space in their life for that activity.
And they don't just let their work or their family take over their life.
They have this thing that's just for them that they do that makes them happy.

(13:04):
And I really like to see that.
It's a hobby then.
So you have a snap judgment you hold for that person.
I don't think it's a snap judgment though, is it?
It's something that...
What is it?
It's based on a value.
It's based on...
I make a judgment and it's positive or negative based on the values that I hold.
So I value self-care maybe.

(13:28):
Maybe that's my value.
Not hobby.
I don't value hobby.
I value what hobby means.
It means doing something you like and it encompasses a whole lot of stuff.
But that value, when I see somebody fulfilling that value that I hold, then I'm continually

(13:50):
looking for that and making judgments and judging that to be a positive thing maybe.
You're commending it.
If you agree with something, you have to make a judgment to agree with something.
So you agree with that lifestyle, with that hobby the individual has saying it's encouraging
their life, enhancing their life, and I agree with that hobby.

(14:10):
So I'm gonna make my judgment in agreement of it.
So you've got an agreement on the right side on the one side of the spectrum.
The other side of the spectrum is a disagreement.
I disagree that that's a valid hobby to use.
Exercising your fingers on the fret of a cello doesn't do anything to benefit the world.

(14:34):
Are you saying you do disagree or is that just the other end of the spectrum?
It's the other end of the spectrum.
I don't know.
And my personal judgment on that.
So you have a personal judgment that you appreciate that person for what they're doing.
I'm more towards the disagreement side.
That person is not being paid for that cello thing and you know that's so I'm not in I'm

(14:59):
not in a band.
We've talked about this in the past.
You've got bands that you're part of and you want to be part of another band and I'm in
a choir that doesn't take a whole lot of time and it's not continuously year-round.
It's seasonal at this point.
Okay.
And if they do go year-round, I may not be involved that much in it.
So I enjoy the seasonal aspect of that musical thing.

(15:23):
But it depends on what they're missing.
Just in my life, I don't have time for other hobbies.
There are other things that are important that I couldn't go out and just enjoy being
a part of a band.
Yeah.
A band would be useless for me and is useless.
That's why I don't do it.
You do it because you enjoy it.

(15:43):
Yeah.
Do you find it useful?
I...
That's a long pause.
I think that you have a...
I think I'm trying to identify what use it has.
The band I'm part of is a bagpipe band and the mission of the band itself is to promote

(16:04):
music education and the Scottish culture in our area.
That's tradition and culture is important to a lot of people.
It might not be as important to me.
I think it's cool, but it's not like a deep value that I hold.
Culture isn't yet a deep value that I hold.
So that's not so important.

(16:26):
But I think that knowing music can help in a lot of different areas of your life that
would be surprising.
And also it exercises your brain.
Maybe it keeps you away from dementia longer.
If you're using music that way, I guess.

(16:50):
So right.
I agree with that.
There's a lot of connections that everything we do benefits and the connecting aspect of
it.
So the fact that I'm doing something, if I replaced music with chess, then that would
be the same thing.
I would be exercising my brain.
Operate your brain just the same.

(17:10):
Yeah.
Chess would be a little bit more isolating.
I don't like isolation.
That is not a value that I hold.
I try and keep my kids from isolating themselves in my house.
Like we, no computers and tablets and phones in their bedrooms because I don't want isolation
in here.
I want community.
And so chess would be more isolating.

(17:33):
So I'd have to be a part of a chess club that meets regularly if I did that.
So I think that's another reason why I like the band idea rather than just playing music
alone in my house.
So you're judging chess in a respect there.
In a respect.
It's more on the disapproval side.

(17:54):
People that play chess only online.
Yeah.
Sure.
You're a great chess player, but is it really benefiting?
You're doing it by yourself.
Yeah.
You're in the basement of your mother's house and playing chess.
That's a judgment that I hold, I guess.
Video games would be way better for a lot of people if they actually left their home
and did video gaming with a group of other people.

(18:18):
If you did that squid game, the actual squid game in person.
In person.
But that's not a video game.
That's a...
Well it is a video game.
Isn't that what it's based on?
No.
It's an actual event.
What in the show, it was that all of the games that they played were based off of childhood
games that they played in grade school.

(18:41):
In real life, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Red light, green light and stuff like that.
Yeah.
The games that you play as kids.
Okay.
So, yeah.
So, do you feel...
I do make a judgment.
I mean...
Do you feel bad or good about that judgment in regard to your space being with people
or being alone?

(19:03):
Is that a good judgment or bad judgment in your brain?
I think the value is good.
I think it's not fair of me to condemn someone because they're participating in something
that I don't value.
So fairness has something to do with judgments.
Can you make unfair judgments?
Yeah.
I think so.

(19:24):
I think that would be the condemnation side.
I think those would be unfair judgments because I am not one of those chess players.
I'm not mom.
Mom can find all the enjoyment she wants in researching autism and there's probably great
use in...
She's doing a lot of good for our whole family, I think, because she's recognizing where people

(19:51):
maybe need improvement, maybe.
Maybe that's what it is.
We're trying to figure out and decipher and she's a deep thinker in all those things,
whether it's autism or narcissism or what it is that actually is happening because she's
trying to study those.
I don't know what the next thing that's going to come up is.
Whatever it is, it's going to roll to something else.

(20:13):
She's not going to stop thinking, but whether she's as good at talking as you and I are
talk it through,' she's not interested in talking it through.
Yeah.
Which is...
She does want to keep learning.
Isolating, I guess.
And that's another...
More isolate.
Whether a person could be an isolated learner.
I want to learn it, but I don't want to talk with anybody about it because I'm going to

(20:35):
develop my own opinions.
And that's back to the independence that...
Are you responsible for your judgments?
You're responsible for your own judgments, but can they benefit other people?
That's I think what you're pointing to.
Should they be voiced?
Should your judgments be voiced?
That is one question around this conversation is what judgments should be voiced, what judgments

(21:00):
should not.
Maybe this is one of those tattletaling things.
If you're tattling, you're just trying to get someone in trouble.
But if you're reporting on something, then that's to hopefully make something better.
You're still getting them in trouble.
You're still identifying a wrong.

(21:22):
Or you could report and identify a right, a good.
You could give a commendation, nominating someone for a citizen of the year.
That's a judgment.
It's a good judgment.
It's a positive thing.
Yeah, I'm going to tattle on this person.
They went and cleaned up the whole freeway stretch between this street and that street.
Yeah.
I'm going to tell the city all about it.

(21:43):
I know they did it by themselves and they didn't wear...
They wore an orange vest and they used orange bags and so they were very safe in it.
You could identify all of the good things about it and commend them completely and agree
with that work.
But then you could say...
You could judge negatively on that, say they wasted their whole day.
I mean, if they spent a week on that, they should have gone to work.

(22:06):
They're going to get fired from their job.
That freeway is just going to get dirty again anyway.
It's a waste of time.
Just take a lawnmower out there and mow it all into pieces.
And no one even lives there.
So who's going to see it?
I mean, the people driving by aren't going to dedicate any time to sitting there in the
park.
Why would you make a park out of the side of the freeway?

(22:29):
So the judgment, voicing the judgment out loud, it makes sense when you can help, when
you can affect change.
It makes sense to voice a judgment.
But when something isn't going to change no matter what...
Well, what's that Lord's Prayer thing?
God grant me the serenity to accept...

(22:52):
Serenity prayer, yeah.
Yeah.
That's not the Lord's Prayer.
Yeah, it's a...
Whatever.
Whatever it's called.
I'm not religious.
I don't know.
Right.
Well, that's Alcoholics Anonymous.
That's what that is.
Okay.
But how does it go?
And I don't know if grant me the wisdom to know the difference.
No.
I'm thinking of...
You got the end.

(23:13):
No.
No, I'm thinking...
That's not even the serenity prayer.
That is...
Oh, Richard.
Richard?
King Richard?
Camelot.
Camelot.
Who's the king in Camelot?
Let me say what it says.
Go ahead.
Serenity prayer.
But I'll look up the Camelot.
There's a few different iterations of it.

(23:35):
King Arthur's Prayer.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the
things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
What was King Arthur's Prayer?
King Arthur's prayers.
May God grant us the wisdom to discover right and then choose it and the strength to make
it endure.
Hmm.
I like King Arthur.

(23:55):
What a good guy.
Yeah.
So...
But the serenity prayer then is the wisdom to know the difference.
Yeah.
That's what it said.
The serenity to accept the things I can't change and the courage to change the things
I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

(24:17):
To know the difference.
The things I can change, I can't change.
And so on top of that, you know what you can't change, know what you can change with wisdom.
And God grant us the wisdom to discover the right, which is identify the things I can
change, choose to change those things and the strength to make it endure, to continue
with those things, to make it a habit.

(24:39):
Yeah.
So...
So...
When you hold a negative, when you've got a negative opinion of someone, you're condemning
someone in your own brain, then you don't have the serenity to accept the things you
cannot change.
Because you can't do anything about that.
You're wasting your time.
It's a waste of energy and thought and your effort, a waste of effort to judge negatively,

(25:04):
perhaps anything.
Yeah.
Based on these two prayers.
And the purpose is to make a change, to identify a good change or a benefit for society or for
yourself.
Yeah.
So when you can make a change, then it's a positive thing.
You're commending.
You can also try and make a change of something negative.

(25:26):
You can change something negative and it wouldn't be a commendation.
It would be a judgment that you made that ended up being a negative thing and now you
need to fix it.
Maybe that's a self thing and inside of you.
You can see someone, but instead of telling them you did the wrong thing, you know, by
cleaning up the freeway, spending a week on that freeway spot, making a park out of that

(25:49):
piece of the freeway that no one's going to sit in, I'm not going to do that with my life.
So you identify the things you can change.
You can't change what they spent their week on, but you can change what you're going to
spend your week on.
And you have the wisdom to know the difference between those two things.
So you're not going to waste any time on trying to tell that person, you've done the wrong

(26:10):
thing.
I'm judging you on this and this is an appropriate judgment.
It may be very valid, may be very appropriate.
You did the wrong thing there.
You wasted your week on that.
You should have been in your federal office doing your federal job that our taxpayers
are paying you for.
But no, you cleaned up the freeway.
What if they come to you with their plans and they're like, hey, do you think it would

(26:35):
make sense for me to go and clean this other part of the freeway?
I mean, well, I guess that would bleed into the thing that you can change.
Yeah, you can change because they're asking your opinion.
So certainly they're asking your opinion.
Give your opinion.
You have the right now to advise, to give some advice of this is the way I see it.

(26:57):
And they may choose to see it differently if they say, well, thank you for your opinion
and then go off and do it anyway.
That's okay.
At least you're able to give your opinion, but you can't feel bad about them or giving
it to them or what they're acting on now.
That's their choice.
Yeah, that falls back into the things that you can't change.
Okay.
And that kind of...
Let me introduce the other concept here that I was thinking about with judgment.

(27:20):
If you think that they disregarded you, what is that dis, D-I-S, what does it mean?
Disappointment.
What?
Dis.
Not disappointment.
Discover.
Undo.
If you say someone dissed me, and we talked about that in the last conversation, some
conversation, disrespect, disrespected me.

(27:40):
That's what it is.
Dis means disrespect.
So I gave them my best information, it's valid information, I give it to you, but you dissed
me with it.
You went ahead and did the thing that I advised you not to do anyway.
And so you disrespected me.
Now what's my position?
Why would I stay that to them?
Why would you tell anyone they disrespected you?

(28:01):
You disrespected me.
And I want to propose that it's because you feel like you're a victim to what they did.
They harmed you by not accepting what you thought was a good judgment.
And so now you're victim status.
So the thing I want to approach now is if you're giving a bad judgment, is it always
from the victim status, since we talked about victimhood.

(28:24):
And I'm of the thought that it is, that you cannot give a bad judgment unless you're a
victim of it.
Unless you feel victimized.
Unless you're taking that victim role.
You got to take that victim role in order to give a bad judgment.
Okay.
A coach will always give a good judgment.
A coach will never say, we lost because you did this and did this and did this.

(28:46):
The coach is going to say, you did these good things.
You were a little bit short on these things, but it's still going to be in the position
of a coach as opposed to a perpetrator.
What was the other one?
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.
Yeah.
If they're a good coach, if they are actually a good coach, then they would be...

(29:08):
They're going to work towards positive change.
Challenging instead of...
Condemning.
Yeah.
What is...
This is the drama triangle thing again.
Right.
So on the drama triangle.
Well the victim turns into a...
What does he turn into?
A hero?

(29:28):
No.
No.
The hero is the bad one.
The coach is good.
The coach turns into a hero.
Oh, right.
So I'm looking at the bad drama triangle and you have to switch it over to...
You have to shift to creator, coach, and challenger.
Yeah.
The victim turns into a creator.
Right.
The rescuer turns into a coach.

(29:49):
The persecutor challenges.
So you have that positive side of judgment is being a challenger, a coach, and a creator.
You're going to do something different now.
You're going to judge to the positive.
A victim triangle, the dreaded drama triangle, in drama you're going to persecute someone.
You're going to try to rescue them because they don't know what they're doing.
I've got to save them from this thing I'm judging them poorly on or the victim.

(30:14):
You've disrespected me and so I have to tell you about it.
Yeah.
Okay.
So let me think of another example then.
An example of victimization or...
An example of where I'm apparently being a victim.
I'm feeling victimized by someone else's choices, which is really silly when I put it that way.

(30:39):
You can create a judgment.
Let's see if we can find a judgment that you can create or can hold and not be a victim
in holding that judgment.
Okay.
So...
Let's say every neighborhood has sexual predators, right?
It seems like.
It seems like every neighborhood has...
That's a judgment.
.a convicted.

(30:59):
You can search online and say, where are all of the sexual predators in my area?
Okay.
And I think this is a government website that you searched on.
Anyway, the records show that there may be a few on my street and they point out their
specific addresses, like their exact addresses, perhaps to help people decide whether they

(31:25):
want to live in that area or where to keep their kids from going or who to be careful
around.
I don't know.
But...
So if I know that on my street, my street stretches eight blocks total, I think, where
the houses are on my street.

(31:45):
So I think there's total eight blocks on my street and I think there might be three or
four convicted predators on this street.
So if I know that and I can judge that their past behavior isn't what...
They're not the kind of person that I want to hang out with.

(32:07):
It's negative.
I'm not going to do that.
Am I being a victim by knowing that and making that judgment call?
Or am I being...
What's the other thing?
Am I being a creator, creating safety around myself and my family by avoiding those people?
I don't know.

(32:30):
By avoiding them, you're avoiding being a victim.
Are you a victim because...
Do you feel they're bad people?
What's your judgment of those people?
Your judgment is that they're once a sex offender, always a sex offender.
Is that the judgment?
I know that I don't know the details of all of these.
I know the details of one of them because they do live a couple of houses away from

(32:52):
me or they did used to before they got carted off to jail.
So I got information from the officers that were arresting him as to what actually was
going on there.
But I do know that someone can be labeled a predator if they're over 20 or 21 or something

(33:18):
and they're dating an older teen, an older teen who seems to think that they know what
they want out of life.
But then they realize, oh, whoops, I got pregnant and I don't want this baby and now I need
to figure out some way to make this all better.
The best way to make this all better is to charge my boyfriend, who's not my boyfriend

(33:38):
anymore, with rape or I don't know.
You can create a story where the sexual predator wasn't actually a predator in the first place.
They were just conned into thinking somebody was 18 when they were just 17 or things like
that.
I mean, how do you prove someone's 18 anyway, unless you ask them for their identification?

(34:03):
You don't do that when you're trying to date someone.
Right.
Specific.
I mean, I look in my area.
Within 25 miles of me, there are two sex offenders.
There are two.
You're so isolated all the way up there.
I'm in a rural area, so I don't have anyone within a block or anything.

(34:23):
The nearest one was eight miles away.
So I don't know where that is, where that person might live, but it's eight miles away.
So not in my town.
Let's see.
Lucky me.
Lucky you.
Why is it lucky me?
Where's the victim in that?
You're holding an idea that you want to stay away from these people who have been convicted

(34:45):
of sex crimes, let's say.
Maybe I'm holding an opinion of them where I know that they've done this crime of some
sort in the past.
And so that means that perhaps they've got other issues going on too.
It's never an isolated thought.
Yeah.
So we can delve in deeper to that and try to figure out if it's a valid thought.

(35:10):
But really, are you a victim?
Are you a victim in that judgment?
Did they do something to you or do you feel like they did something to you that requires
you to do something different?
I do do something different because of the knowledge that I have.
Yeah.
But if you have to, so here's another question, if you feel like you have to place a boundary,

(35:32):
does that mean you're a victim?
You've judged someone doing something to you that you've got to place up a boundary and
change your action because you can't change their action.
That's an inappropriate thing.
But if you place a boundary, you're going to change your action based on the fact that
you know this, you're judging this over there.
So I think that's an example of clearly if you have that judgment, you're a victim.

(35:54):
You're a victim of their sexual abuse, even though they only live three houses down or
eight miles away.
I'm not going to go in that direction if I want to judge myself to stay away from this
type of thing.
Because I have a negative judgment.
I'm judging negatively about them.
Your negative judgment makes you a victim.
If I was judging positively, then I would not be a victim.

(36:16):
If yeah, and judging positively says, I think sex offenders, I mean, that's something they
did at a time.
You could say that I don't care about that.
And you'd just say, I don't care about that.
That would be neutral.
It wouldn't be positive.
It would just be, it would make it neutral.
Like that has nothing to do with me.
So okay, you could be neutral or you could be positive.

(36:38):
I guess positive.
If you want to comment, commend them completely, you'd identify who they are and go and get
to be their friend and say, how can I help you further repair your life and become a
better person?
So if you're fully complimentary of them, you would get to be their friend.
You'd identify where they are so that you can help them.
If you're going to be a victim and judge them negatively, you're going to stay as far away

(36:59):
from as possible and tell your kids, don't even look that way at their house.
Cause I don't know what you might see if you look that way.
Yeah.
A neutral is not a judgmental position.
So judgment, I think is only on the far judging side of the spectrum.
Victimhood is only on the far judging side.
If you judge negatively and maybe we should look into another issue.

(37:21):
So you brought up this, the predator thing, dogs, let's say dogs.
How people handle their dogs.
Is there a judgment you hold of dogs?
If you see a dog on the street, should it be on a leash?
If I have my dogs with me, then other dogs should be on a leash because that's the law
in the city.
If I don't have my dogs with me, I'm okay with their dog being off leash.

(37:44):
So it's a situational.
Yeah.
If your dog's on a leash, you want every other dog on a leash as well.
If, if my dogs, I put my dogs on a leash because I can't control them.
So it's not, I don't do that because it's the law.
It's because I don't want to have to pay somebody else's medical bills because my dog bit them.

(38:05):
So I hold my dogs on my leash, but they, I can't control my dogs.
So if someone else's dog is off leash, their dog runs up to my dogs, my dogs go crazy.
When my dog's the biter, they, what, what do I do?
So I make a judgment.
I'm like, your dog should be on a leash because my dogs can't be trusted.

(38:27):
Okay.
Now try to place the victim idea in all that whole conversation.
Where's the victim hood?
I'm the victim because I am upset that someone else isn't doing something I think they should
do.
Yeah.
So you have to have a boundary.
You have to make sure your dogs are on a leash or if you see the dog wandering without a

(38:48):
leash, you're going to take your dogs inside very quickly.
You're going to get out of the area.
Get out of the area.
I would imagine.
Yeah.
But if I'm outside without my dogs and some dog comes up off of a leash, I judge that
the owner knows that their dog is safe off of a leash.
They're not going to go up and just attack anyone they see.

(39:10):
So I judge positively on that and I'm okay with it.
So you're not a victim of that because you have a positive judgment of the person and
the intelligence of that person and people in the city, people in our society generally,
if they're going to have their dog off a leash, it means they have confidence in their dog.
So I have confidence in them.
Yes.

(39:31):
So maybe I'm a victim of my dogs actually and not the person who has their dog off of
a leash.
My dogs are victimizing me because of their behavior that I can't control.
You believe you can't control them.
Well, right.
And so I guess by extension, I'm a victim of myself because I haven't done the work
to control my dogs.
You haven't trained them.
See, I also know I could fight off about any dog that shows up.

(39:56):
You know that.
Yeah.
And I think you'd know that too.
So it's okay.
I'm not going to be that frightened of a dog.
You know what?
I think the best way to stop a dog or a cat from biting you is to try and put your fingers
in their throat.

(40:16):
Give them your fingers.
Shove your hand right into their throat.
They don't like that.
They don't like that at all.
Down their throat, not at their throat, into their mouth, down their throat.
Right in their mouth.
Yeah.
All right.
I once had a dog once without an African guy and they were fighting lions.
And he killed this lion by getting a stick.

(40:37):
He got a stick about four foot long.
He just described it about as big, long as his arm.
Oh, wow.
He had the stick and the lion came up to bite him and he shoved the stick in his mouth as
soon as the lion opened his mouth.
So he had to get that close to it, but he knew exactly what he's going to do.
That's the soft palate in the back of your mouth.
That's the weak spot.
Yeah.
So he shoved it straight in there and the lion couldn't do anything.

(40:59):
And it just finally clamped down.
And then I think it killed him based on the fact the stick went through his brain or something.
Well, yeah.
So he killed the lion with a stick.
Yeah.
So.
Yep.
But you got to be very brave.
And so he wasn't a victim of that lion.
The lion was coming to get him, but he wasn't a victim.
Right.

(41:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he didn't have any negative judgment of the lion.
The lion was doing what he was doing.
Anyone else that sees a lion on the street, I mean, you see a lion on the street.
Now, you know, a zoo lost an animal.
Everyone's afraid.
Everyone's the victim of that escaped lion.
Even though the escaped lion isn't going to do anything to anyone, it's not out to eat.
It's just out to find a place to get away from people.

(41:44):
But everyone's a victim.
If you judge that that's a fearful situation, you're judging negatively and you're a victim.
And you're a victim.
Can you judge negatively and not be a victim?
So dogs would determine you can't do that.
Judge negatively.
What if someone kills animals?
Like hunters for sport or?

(42:04):
No.
Neglectful dog owners, maybe.
Okay.
Let's just say neglectful.
Let them in the cage and let them starve.
Yeah.
You know, didn't feed the dog.
He's in a cage and you see this dead dog.
I mean, we had a house there in your city at one time that had a pen out in the back
that had two dog carcasses in it.
Really?
That most likely.
Yeah.

(42:25):
Yeah.
It was, it was that why when the first one were removed to the city.
Oh, are the dog carcasses the reason we weren't allowed to go in the backyard?
Probably.
Most likely.
Okay.
Your mother made that decision.
Don't go back there in that stuff because it's too dangerous.
Tell us why.
Yeah.
I would have nightmares.
So yeah, now you can have them now.

(42:48):
Okay.
But the two dogs in those cages, you know, locked up and not fed and maybe the people
already moved before that happened, but maybe they did it on purpose.
I don't know.
No way to tell.
But as a judgment in that case, so they did a wrong thing.
That's kind of like a court judge room, courtroom judgment.
They're not in front of me.

(43:09):
They're not doing anything.
I'm not a victim of what they did to those dogs.
I just judged that as a poor thing for them to do.
So I get you judgments in the past, judgment of past events.
If we judge the Holocaust was a bad thing, are we a victim of the Holocaust?
I think we're not, but still it is a bad judgment.
Yeah, we have a responsibility to keep it from happening again.

(43:31):
And so that's something you maybe, maybe it's something you can change.
If it's happened in the past and you think you can prevent it happening again, then that's
a courage to change the thing you can change situation.
Yeah, the thing you can change is how you work to the future.
Like the guy cleaning the freeway.

(43:53):
If I judge him, he hadn't victimized me because he wasted his week on the freeway.
So I'm not a victim of that, but I still judge that as a poor thing.
If he comes and asks me, what should I do next week?
Should I clean the other side of the freeway?
And I say, definitely not.
You should go back to work because the taxpayers are paying your salary.
Whatever that case is, and he chooses to go clean the street, then he's disrespected me.

(44:16):
Then I'm a victim of, I can claim a victim of him.
Not that you're cleaning it, but you cleaned it against your better understanding.
Yeah, I'm a taxpayer.
I am paying your salary in one way or another.
And now you're victimizing me.
Get back in your office and take care of those papers that I sent in instead of spending

(44:39):
all of the time out here.
Instead of cleaning up the papers that we threw out.
Are you, is the taxpayer a victim of the federal employees not being in the office?
That's kind of the way it's presented.
Yeah, that was a just recent thing with President Trump deciding that everyone needed to go

(45:00):
back into work.
Yeah, you're going to work in the office or you can choose to have a vacation.
It was a seven month.
Seven month vacation.
Eight month.
Yeah, within eight months, it's within the contract year.
We've contractually already agreed to pay you this amount.
So we're going to keep the contract valid.
But if you choose not to work, just don't come in.

(45:23):
We'll end it as of the end of this contract year and enjoy your vacation.
If you want to, I'm happy to let you leave now.
Yeah, I'm assuming those people that choose to leave will have their clearances revoked,
right?
They wouldn't be able to go in and download all of the files and upload them to WikiLeaks

(45:44):
or anything like that.
Well, and since they've been working at home, perhaps they have it already on their home
computer.
They all have it anyway.
As soon as they reply agree or yes or whatever they said to reply to the email.
Then their computer blows up.
If they reply that, it's already disallowed.
So they immediately close the connection.

(46:05):
Yeah, interesting situation.
Yeah, when you fire somebody, you have to take control.
I think the taxpayers are victims of the people that aren't doing their job.
They're not working.
That aren't being effective.
If I as a taxpayer complain about them, then I'm taking the victim role to complain about

(46:27):
them.
Because you can't change it.
Yeah, you can't change it.
You can't do anything about it.
So I'm a victim of something that's...
If I as a taxpayer say, you know, that's up to the government what they do with my tax
money.
Once I pay it to them, that's theirs.
And so I'm not concerned.
It depends on who you're complaining to.
If you complain to your representative of the state, like maybe...

(46:48):
Is that the person that you could complain to that could possibly instigate change?
Let's say you go to your congressman and say, I'm concerned about this.
The only reason you go to them and state your negative judgment is because I'm feeling victimized.
You wouldn't go to them and state your...
You wouldn't even waste your congressman or senator's time if you were making a con...

(47:12):
Commendation.
I think they're doing the right thing.
I kudos to them for working at home and only working six hours a week.
That's great.
I'm happy that they can do that.
And it doesn't matter to me that it's my tax dollars that are paying them.
So you're not even gonna call and make that con...
Commendation.
You're only gonna call if you feel like you're a victim.
That's victimized.

(47:33):
I'm a victim of that.
I've got to voice my negative opinion.
Yeah.
You're a victim, but maybe it can change though.
If you're complaining to your neighbor, then you're a victim and there's nothing you guys
can do together right there.
You're not looking for a change.
You're looking for someone to complain to.

(47:54):
For venting, just to vent?
If you're just venting with your judgments.
Anyone that vents is in a victim role.
You're still in a victim role if you're venting.
But even if you're legitimately, you're talking to the guy about the dog leash and you go
up to him and say, you know, my dogs are on the leashes right here.
Anytime that you're out and we live right here in the same neighborhood, put your dog

(48:15):
on the leash.
You know, I'm judging you as a poor citizen.
You're one of the worst people in our whole neighborhood because you do this.
I wouldn't say that.
All of my other neighbors, we've talked about this again and again.
And we know that you're the worst person in the neighborhood.
If you just put a leash on your dog, you'll be one of the best just like us.

(48:36):
You'll be a sneetch with a star on your belly, just like all of us.
Just like all of us.
But with that judgment, you are still victimized by him.
You potentially could change something.
If you went with a complete negative, you're not going to persuade him very well if you
just damage him with your words.

(48:58):
You could find some better way to persuade him.
But by being victimized and by coming up with a negative judgment and finding the right
way to persuade him, you could make that situation much better and get a positive resolution
for everybody.
Through conversation, communication.
You say, we're going to place a tariff on your house.
You're going to pay the garbage fee for all of our houses if you don't put that leash

(49:18):
on.
And it's totally legal.
We're allowed to do this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even though this will go through the courts, but I think when it gets to the courts, you'll
find that it's legal.
So like all of this is, we're talking about this because I don't like condemning people.

(49:38):
I don't like having judgments that are negative of people.
I don't like it.
And even if it was, maybe I'm wrong in this, but I don't want to judge negatively anybody
who has definitely done something wrong.
Like a predator, a sexual offender that's listed on the webpage.

(50:00):
Or even by extension, not by extension, even in the extreme end, maybe serial killers.
Maybe I don't want to judge them negatively.
I don't want to hold negative judgments of anyone.
Boundaries.
I think boundaries is what I want.
I don't want to condemn, but I do want to have boundaries.

(50:23):
Maybe.
Does that
Seem logical.
What does condemn mean?
Condemn means to limit their action.
You put up a boundary, you're condemning them with your boundary.
With my boundary.
You are setting, you know, whatever condemn means.
What does it mean?
I spelled it wrong.
They won't tell me.

(50:45):
Express complete disapproval of, typically in public.
That's the first one.
Sentence someone to a particular punishment.
That's the second definition.
Right.
So you're punishing them by setting a boundary that I'm going to punish you for my presence.
You know, if you use those words, I'm going to have to leave.
I mean, I can't, you can use the words.
That's fine.

(51:05):
But you're not going to have my presence around you.
Yeah.
You won't have this positive, all this positive energy that I bring to the table isn't going
to be at your table if you're using those words.
So setting boundaries, you're condemning them, even if privately you're just protecting
yourself.
Yeah.
So I guess having boundaries is still a condemnation.

(51:27):
It's a judgment.
Based on judgment, you feel like you need a boundary.
If you feel like you need a boundary, you're a victim and you're trying to protect your
victimhood by not being damaged by that victim status.
So if you were going to change it to a creator, well, we talked about that before.
Yeah.
You have to persuade them that your way of thinking is right.

(51:47):
And if they still choose not to think that way, how do you avoid continuing in that judgment?
How do you avoid putting up boundaries?
Yeah.
If you identify that, let's just say for supposition that we get to the end of the conversation
and we believe that boundaries are victimized, you're agreeing you're a victim if you're
going to put up a boundary.
So how do you live your life without ever putting up a boundary?

(52:10):
There's that other option where you can just change your thinking about the situation.
You're like, well, okay, from now on, I'm going to be okay with everyone who has their
dog off a leash, regardless of whether my dogs are out or not.
Like I'm okay with it.
I, but you got to like really believe it.
If the dog's off the leash and your dogs are out and your dogs kill that dog, you're afraid

(52:34):
that they're going to sue you because of that death.
Yeah.
I'm going to be out of a lot of money because of that situation that was out of my control.
But that happens all the time.
So that's why you're the victim.
Like, so I get a flat tire, then I'm out a few hundred dollars, a couple hundred dollars
for a new tire.
Or I get a flat tire and I hit someone else's car.

(52:56):
You know, it's, there's financial repercussions for lots of things out of our control.
Circumstances happen all the time.
Yeah.
And so maybe that's just another circumstance that happened.
And your thoughts.
I mean, in the model of the circumstance, you're thinking your feelings, your actions,

(53:17):
your thoughts are what we're trying to deal with.
That's the only thing you can control is internal.
It's your internal world and your internal judgments are concerning to us.
If our concern, internal judgments are concerning to us because we can't, we don't care about
other people's judgments.
We can't hear them.
We don't know them.
We don't know that they placed a boundary on us and their wonderful presence isn't at

(53:39):
our table.
We don't miss it.
So it doesn't affect us at all.
It's affecting them.
They're the one that placed the boundary.
Yeah.
And they're playing the victim and they have that boundary and they're making sure that
nobody crosses it.
Yeah.
So that they don't have to be damaged by whatever it is by a dog off a leash.
They're not going to be damaged by that because they've got a boundary.

(54:00):
They put up a fence in front of their house.
Yeah.
So that dog off a leash is never going to cross my property.
Right.
I've locked them out.
Yes.
So if you're just keeping your dogs in, then you're a victim of your dogs because you have
to keep them in.
That the boundary you've set is to keep them in.
Yeah.
So your dogs never get to run.

(54:20):
They never get the exercise that they could get.
If you put up a fence, you're condemning that dog not to be on this piece of land.
You know, I'm condemning him from my private property.
Yeah.
That external dog.
So boundaries are then you think maybe is what we're seeing is boundaries are from a
victim stance.

(54:42):
If you have a boundary, then you're accepting being a victim.
And is it based in...
And you're doing that based on the judgment that you're holding.
So we're talking about judgments.
You never place a boundary unless you have a poor judgment of something.
Would you place a boundary under a condom of a commendation judgment and an agreement?
I agree to this, so I'm going to abound it.

(55:03):
I'm going to condemn it because I agree with it.
Okay.
So putting up a fence to keep your dogs from running into the street, maybe that would
be you agree that your dogs should live.
And so...
And they should run.
And they should run.
And they have all of this space to run within the fence.
Yeah.

(55:23):
So there's a boundary.
You're putting a boundary for positive activity.
Having a safe space, but then you keep the bat out still.
You're still potentially...
So now I'm thinking of a safe space to talk, a safe space for a minority group to come
together and feel validated in their minoritiness.

(55:47):
And so no challengers allowed in here.
No villains allowed in here.
So it's a boundary against the villains, but it's a safe space that makes it safer for
the people within that boundary.
It's like not being able to visit the elementary schools.

(56:08):
I was a little confused at that as a parent.
I wasn't able to go into the school.
All of the doors are locked.
You had to go in through the office, right?
Yeah.
And they had to escort you even though you're a parent because it's got to be a safe place
for all the children.
Not just your children, but all the children.

(56:30):
And so you could go in if you're a parent, if you had a reason, but if you weren't a
parent, there's no...
I mean, you can't go and visit an elementary school.
I just want to walk around and see what it looks like.
No, you can't do that.
It's not a public space.
It's a public school, but it's not a public space.
Correct.
This is a safe space.
And the safe space means no outsider, even whatever their intention.

(56:51):
If they've got good intentions, great.
Come to the office, talk to us about it.
If there's a reason, we'll escort you with your intention.
But we're not going to let anybody.
You can't just walk like it's a park.
An elementary school is not a park.
You can't go play on the playground while the kids are playing on the playground.
It's their playground.
They're safe there.
It's a safety place.
That's why they have the fence, not to keep them in, but to make sure there's a delineation.

(57:12):
This is the safe space.
The street is over there.
You can stay on the street if you like, but you're not coming in here.
That type of boundary, is it a victim?
You are still a victim.
You're creating a safe space because you don't want to be victimized by the nefarious things
that may exist on the street.
Yeah.
And by preventing the potential predator from coming in, then you're already creating a

(57:39):
victim status, even though you're not a victim yet.
Let's say you're a victim of the children on the playground in the elementary school.
You don't want them just wandering the streets.
You don't want them to walk away at two miles and then not be able to get back or get lost.
Right.
A victim of the future consequences of letting the kids out.

(58:01):
Yeah.
So you're a victim there too.
You've got to have two teachers in the playground watching people that are trusted and inside
the system, watching to make sure that there's nothing bad that happens to the people that
you are victims of.
So you have to change the people you're serving, the kids you're serving.

(58:22):
If you have to create a safe space for them, you are a victim of that as well.
So is this victim status a justifiable victim status?
Can you feel okay with being a victim in that way?
I mean, we were talked about privacy and am I okay in keeping myself safe, taking steps

(58:46):
to keep myself safe by setting boundaries?
I am putting myself on the victim side, but am I justified in that?
That's that a good thing.
Is it possible to not do that?
Is there any place in elementary school or young children who definitely they're dependent,
they need assistance.

(59:08):
You can't just let them run around anywhere.
That's life's too dangerous.
The world's too dangerous to just throw them outside and say, do what you do.
You're a three year old.
Are you a victim of that?
You chose that.
Yeah.
If you lived a little bit more farther away from the city, farther away from traffic,
public schools are usually very accessible.

(59:31):
And so that means there's a lot of roads around them.
They're right in the middle of a community.
They're where they need to be close to the consumers of that school.
Right.
So if you were off the grid homeschooler, then you could let your three year old out

(59:52):
and you didn't have like a lake or a river or something they could drown in.
Like you felt safe.
Right.
You could put them outside and say, just go do whatever you want.
And you could not be a victim.
Well, and just back to whether you're homeschooling now, but agrarian society, if you happen to
live in a house 40 acres, 40 miles away from any neighbor, 10 miles from your closest neighbor.

(01:00:17):
And there's nothing but wheat fields everywhere around you.
Your animals too would be able to run.
So you let your dogs and your kids run outside.
And that's the way I was raised.
I was raised out on a road.
There was a road in front of the house, but it was a dirt road.
One car a day maybe drove on it.
So no matter where we were, my mother didn't care where we were anywhere out there.

(01:00:41):
And we would walk up in the fields, would walk miles, miles, maybe miles.
There was a mulberry tree probably a mile away that we went to quite often.
And I don't know, maybe it was only a quarter mile, but it was a long ways as kids.
Walking up to that tree.
That society, you were able to do that.
But when we went to school, I mean, I was in school too, an elementary school.

(01:01:04):
Then you had the fences and you had the bus.
You had to stand here and wait for the bus and you couldn't walk up to it.
You had to wait for the teacher to lead you to the bus.
Because that was out in the parking lot.
That's out on the road where someone could run over you.
So you stand behind this fence until it's time, until the bus opens the door and then
we will lead you to it.
Yeah.
So.
A safe space.

(01:01:25):
And everyone in that safe space in hoping to be not a victim is already a victim of
what could happen.
So in that status, that's their job.
Their job is to create a safe space.
So they're a victim of creating that safe space and maintaining that safe space.
That's their job though.

(01:01:46):
So are we victims of our employment?
I think we are there too.
So victim mentality, I don't know that you can...
The difference between in that drama triangle, the victim or a creator, you can choose to
frame yourself as a victim of your job or a creator in your job.
So the correct status would be the creator in your job, a creator of the safe space,

(01:02:10):
as opposed to a victim of I have to stand here doing this job.
I hate my job.
You could say, I love my job.
I get to work with kids.
I get to watch them play on the playground.
I get to turn them around and help them understand that this is the gate.
You don't walk through this gate.
That's for people to come in.
That's for us to go to the bus.
But when you're playing, play on those toys over there, but don't play on this gate.

(01:02:31):
This isn't the place to play.
So I'm creating a new educational experience for the child.
Yeah.
Okay.
We veered away from judgment and now we're talking about victim again, which is one of
our favorite topics.
Yeah, should I even try and stop holding negative judgments of anyone?

(01:02:51):
Or should I try more to recognize where the judgment is keeping me safe versus where maybe
it's just a stupid thing that I'm thinking and it doesn't matter?
The serenity prayer.
So you brought that up.
Change the things I can change.
So you want change.
And that's why you're framed that early.

(01:03:13):
It says if it's going to affect positive change for me or for the world or for society, I
want to do it.
I want to voice that judgment.
So if I'm a victim, if I can change it, if I can change something and if I can't change
it, then yeah, you should be able to let those judgments go.
Do you find it's hard to let those judgments go of things you can't change that you choose?

(01:03:36):
You value that that's something that I can't do anything about.
Is it okay?
Is it easy to drop that judgment?
I don't think it's easy because then I would have done it already.
I think.
Well, what's one of the what's one that you feel like you could drop that you can't change?
You're not using to change anything.
You're just holding a judgment.
Well, I mentioned a few weeks ago that I know somebody who I'm pretty certain is a pathological

(01:04:02):
liar and for some reason that bothers me.
That is the judgment that I'm holding for them that what I value not lying about everything
under the sun that I could lie about.
Right.
I value that.
I don't I don't think that they're lying affects me.
They're not telling people lies about me.

(01:04:24):
They're just grandiose about themselves.
So I should just not care about it.
Right.
It shouldn't affect how I act around them.
It shouldn't affect whether I feel comfortable being around them or not.
Does it make a difference if you're married to them or if they're just a person three

(01:04:46):
blocks away?
I think if I was married to them, that would be more difficult because maybe then I would
have to add a caveat to everything they say to everyone that I'm there.
Maybe.
And by that he means it was fun.
Right.
Now, so this person doesn't doesn't talk like that when they are with their spouse though.

(01:05:11):
So they're because sometimes I spend time with both of them, them and their spouse.
And so when they're together, it doesn't seem like I hear anything that could be grandiose
or or you know, fictional.
I don't hear any fiction when when they're when I'm with both of them.

(01:05:34):
When I'm with one of them, then I hear a lot of fiction.
What I think is fiction.
So how does how how does that hurt you?
That's what you're saying.
It doesn't really hurt you.
It doesn't hurt me.
It's it's against my value of not telling people lies about your life, but are not exaggerating
your life is exaggerations.

(01:05:54):
You said grandiose.
I mean, exaggerations or complete lies.
I was born a poor black child.
Yeah, that kind of thing.
It's a complete lie.
I think that but it's funny.
Yeah, it I think it's complete lies.
That's what I think.
I think and it's not funny.
He's not saying it for fun.
He's saying it or she's saying it.

(01:06:14):
They're saying it because of they really believe it.
I don't know.
You don't know what their purpose is.
You don't know what they what they're they're trying to persuade you of something.
You don't know what the persuasion point what their tactic is.
Right.
And then there you're identifying this is a person that's a pathological liar.
You could be a victim of it and say I want to put up the boundary, you know, put up a

(01:06:36):
boundary or you could say let's try to find out why they're lying.
You know, I'm going to press back with them.
You could take it as a game.
It's going to be fun.
I did that once.
I said they said something and I said I said something like that sounds completely unbelievable.
And everybody around laughed at like yeah like I was making a joke.

(01:06:58):
But I was saying seriously what you just said sounds unbelievable.
Yeah.
And that's why it was funny because it was so true to the core of what's actually happening.
They all know that was a lie too.
I guess I don't know.
And and that's what humor is humor is pointing out the obvious fallacies or problems in a
situation.

(01:07:19):
Yeah, that's humorous.
Yeah, you know, if it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't be funny.
It's a problem.
But I think you should take that to the next step.
At some point, say when I said unbelievable, I meant I think you lied point blank.
What's the actual truth of that?
And not in the group, but take them to the side, her to the side and say here's the here's

(01:07:40):
why I said that unbelievable.
Everyone laughed.
It was funny.
And I think you thought it was funny too.
I want to be serious for a second.
You said this.
What part of that did you make up?
But do I need to do that though?
Like does it matter.
That would be fun.
It would be fun, but it could hurt them.
It could it could cause harm.

(01:08:01):
Are you afraid of that?
Are you a victim to that now?
I'm a victim of my fear of hurting people, hurting other people's feelings.
Your judgment is that it potentially could go very poorly.
Yeah, if you tried to persuade that person to change a little bit.
Yeah, it could potentially go poorly.

(01:08:24):
And if it does go poorly, then that I think would benefit you that you wouldn't have to
set up the boundary of limiting yourself because that person would disappear.
Yeah, I am a person would be offended so much.
They would disappear.
Whether I spend time with this person or not is dependent on me choosing whether to be
there or not though.

(01:08:46):
They're going to be there no matter what.
I have to stop doing something that I regularly do.
It's like a church group.
If you have someone in your church that you just don't like, you have negative feelings
about them, then what do you do?
Stop going to church?
Ask them to stop going to church.
You just deal with it.
You cause you create a space where you can both exist in the same spot without.

(01:09:12):
I have an example.
Yeah, let me try an example.
I was a lady in our church that said, I don't feel safe.
Her statement to me was, I don't feel safe.
I was teaching a class and I was trying to have a conversation.
She was, I think she wanted to state her whole point and then wait till she was done before

(01:09:33):
I said anything else.
And I was trying to converse with her directly as you and I are talking.
When you converse with someone, you're in the middle of the conversation.
You say something, they say something.
It's a discussion.
She didn't feel safe.
And so she stopped.
She says, I'm not going to come to this class anymore.
Okay.
She took herself out of the class.

(01:09:53):
I thought it was bad.
Yeah.
She took herself out and I was, I said, I'm sorry.
I didn't, I was just so, and I publicly apologized for that a little later too.
In the class, I said, I'm just trying to converse.
So I kind of described what I thought it was.
And then it was about a year later that I went to her directly and I said, are you okay

(01:10:16):
with me?
Are you upset at all?
Because we did have that about a year ago.
And she said, oh no, you'd know if I was upset.
You'd know if I were mad at you.
You'd know.
So yeah.
Oh man.
She said it that way.
And so she's not, she's fine.
And now we've had a good relationship over the years and she's never made a comment in

(01:10:37):
a class that I was in again.
So maybe she still has the boundary, but she's not, she, it hasn't broken the relationship.
Okay.
Whatever, whatever that, you know, distant relationship is, at least she doesn't admit
to it.
And I don't admit to it.
I'm fine.
But I, I'm not going to go and ask her any questions either.

(01:10:58):
Yeah.
So you, you approached her about it.
She, she approached you first.
She, she gave you that, I don't feel safe.
That's what happened.
You didn't see, you weren't in the same space anymore after that.
And so she separated herself from the situation.
Yeah.
She took herself away.
Yeah.

(01:11:19):
And I think it would be a bad thing for everyone involved if either I or this other person
took ourselves away from this situation.
I think the best thing would be to let them think that they're getting away with all of
their lies and for me to just let them brush off the back of it, like water off the, off

(01:11:40):
a duck's back or whatever.
Off a duck's back.
It's just, eh.
So there was another one and that's okay.
I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna move forward with any decisions based on what they just
said.
So that's my boundary is.
And is that, is that easy to do?
It's not necessarily a boundary because you're not placing a boundary, yeah.
Saying I'm going to bound that.

(01:12:00):
I'm going to allow to hear, I'm gonna hear all those words.
So it's like the idea, if you use those words, I'm going to not be at your table.
Yeah.
You're not going to do that.
You're not going to put up a boundary.
You're going to say, use those words.
I just, I don't appreciate it, but it's not going to affect me.
I'm not going to judge those words.
Yeah.
If you use those specific, you know, that specific way of speech and I can term it a

(01:12:24):
lie, I'm going to be okay with it.
I'm just, I'm going to allow it.
Yeah.
How do you allow things?
If you judge it, I'm not necessarily going to agree.
So you're not going to go all the other side of, I agree with it.
I'm going to support you a hundred percent.
I'm going to command you for it.
I'm just going to sit right in the middle of the spectrum.
I'm not going to judge it as a condemnation, but I'm not going to commend it.

(01:12:46):
I'm just going to allow it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, I think that's what I'd prefer to do.
I think I'd prefer to have things on the commend side.
Negative judgments of people.
And then I'd like to be at the very farthest on the negative side, neutral.
That's where I'd like to be.

(01:13:07):
I don't want to be on the, I mean, it doesn't feel good.
I think that's my problem is I don't feel good when I'm thinking about negative things,
negative judgments I've have of other people.
And so I want to stop having negative judgments of other people.
And that's a mindset.
That's clearly, I mean, the seven habits as we get into that book.

(01:13:27):
Okay.
That's the private, private, private victories and the public victories.
Your public victories are those things.
You don't want to judge anyone in the public.
You want to have your private victories.
So you have to not be, and that's the defense definition of dependence or independent.
Interdependence is the thing working with other people.

(01:13:48):
If you're independent, then you're not victimized by anyone.
Someone who's dependent on things is going to be victimized by it.
Okay.
And your judgments are going to rule your life.
I judge that you've just damaged me because I'm relying on you feeling good about me.
And now you've disrespected me.

(01:14:08):
So an independent person, someone who says, I think you should go to work instead of cleaning
that side of the freeway.
And that's my opinion.
If you choose to be a victim, it's because you felt dependent on that.
You needed their commendation for your good advice.
If you don't need their condemnation for your good advice, my advice is there.
Thank you for your advice.
Well, thank you for listening.

(01:14:29):
And then you both walk your different ways.
There's no judgments.
There's no ill feelings.
There's no victimization on either of your parts.
You're just now living your own life independently.
Yeah.
So you think that this will resolve, this will resolve itself as I read this book then
as I get through the seven habits, start practicing that, then maybe I will just be less negatively

(01:14:52):
judgmental of people.
Exactly.
Are you on page 52 yet?
I actually just got there today.
I'm reading the 30th anniversary edition now with Sean Covey's excerpts, extra stuff at
the end of each chapter.
Oh, so you're, yeah, we're not on the same pages.
We're still not on the same page, no.
But we're about in the same area.

(01:15:14):
I haven't started habit one yet.
I just finished the one right before that.
Okay.
And you didn't get the thing about judgment and dependence and independence.
I did get that.
You read all that description.
That whole description says where you need to sit.
So if you're sitting as an independent person, you won't have poor judgments about anybody.
Okay.

(01:15:34):
Because you know you're stable in yourself.
Your opinions are your opinions.
If you're dependent on someone, let me read just what it said here.
Dependencies such as letting the weaknesses of other people ruin your emotional lives,
like that lying, ruins my emotional life or feeling victimized by people and events out
of your control, which we talked about in the Serenity Prayer, those things I can control.

(01:15:57):
Yeah.
You're dependent on the things that you can't control that you're feeling like you want
to be controlled by.
Of course, we may need to change our circumstances, but the dependence problem is a personal maturity
issue and has little to do with circumstances.
Okay.
Doesn't matter what's happening.
Yeah.
Judgments of other people is a maturity issue as you gain maturity.
So he's using the immaturity maturity span too in describing these things.

(01:16:21):
Yeah.
If you're more mature, doesn't matter what people think of you or whether they lie.
Their lies are, I don't want to lie, but you're making your own choices.
Being okay with what other people are doing.
Yeah.
And the fact that you can never one up the story in that group, he's always going to
have the biggest, nicest, greatest things that happen.

(01:16:43):
That's okay with me.
I'm independent.
I don't depend on being the top of the group, but he does apparently.
He's dependent on that or she.
Yeah.
Whoever it is.
I'm not going to identify who that is.
In your head, it's a male, so that's okay.
Yeah, it's fine.
It's fine.
You're not judging me for that statement that all bad guys are males and all good people
are women.

(01:17:04):
Right.
That all dogs are males and all cats are females.
Right.
It doesn't matter.
That's just how it goes.
What I think.
Women never lie.
Exactly.
That's right.
So it's a maturity issue.
I think more than victimization.
Okay.
Immature people judge negatively.

(01:17:27):
I think we all have to judge.
I'm reminded, hold on, let me look it up here.
Because I just recently listened to Jordan Peterson being interviewed by Steven Bartlett
on the diary of a CEO podcast, right?
I took down some notes and I think one of them was, yeah, they were talking about Steven

(01:17:49):
being a podcaster, I guess.
And Jordan Peterson said, Jordan said, you have to judge because you have to listen and
you have to separate wheat from chaff.
Separate wheat from chaff.
You have to evaluate.
But can you can do that without careless condemnation.

(01:18:10):
Careless condemnation.
So maybe there's careful condemnation and careless condemnation.
Careless condemnation is just you're wrong.
You're wrong.
Yeah.
But a careful condemnation would be, have you thought that through completely?
Let's just look at one of the avenues if you choose to go that route.

(01:18:30):
Okay.
Here's something that may happen.
Yeah.
Opening a conversation.
That's why Jordan Peterson, and he said that to Steven in that thing.
He says it's a big conversation.
To answer a simple question like, do I believe in God?
It takes a lot longer.
It's not just a yes, no answer.
People are asking, you know, in the Senate confirmation hearings, they say, do you believe

(01:18:53):
this?
Yes or no?
Yes or no?
Well, I'm going to explain it.
Sometimes it takes a 15 minute description and that you have to infer the yes or no.
And hopefully we'll get to talk about that question.
We'll have to do that sometime in the future.
About whether Jordan Peterson believes in God or not?
Yeah.
What it means to believe in God, what that means and why yes or no isn't an appropriate

(01:19:17):
answer to that question, whether it's appropriate or not.
But that's what I want to treat at some point.
So we're putting that on our topic list down the road.
So look forward to that.
Do you believe in God?
Yeah.
As a generic question, that's going to be a topic of conversation at some point.
Because Jordan's been talking about it for years now and everyone's trying to get him

(01:19:38):
to answer yes or no.
And he will never answer yes or no to that question.
I don't believe.
Yeah.
It would be very surprising if he ever does.
Yeah.
I think he did answer yes, but what God?
Yeah.
He always answers yes.
I think all of his answers are well in the affirmative.
He says, I act like I believe in God.
So that'll be a good conversation.

(01:19:58):
We'll get to that at that point because that touches on our second conversation of precision
of speech and what something actually means.
And that's what Jordan Peterson is really good at identifying what belief means.
What do you mean by belief?
Let's talk about it for an hour.
He talks about an hour, what belief means.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what we're doing anyway.

(01:20:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're talking about what judgment is.
And we've really figured out that it means a couple of things in maturity.
We didn't really...we could go deeper into maturity.
Yeah, we should add that to our future topics, maturity and what that means for victims and
what that means for...

(01:20:40):
Here's one other thing I had about judgment that I just circled here in my notes beforehand
is a benefit of the doubt.
If you give someone the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah.
So doubt means judgment.
If you doubt something, you've issued a judgment.
I doubt that what you said is true.
Okay.
But if you give someone the benefit of the doubt, you're saying, but I'm going to commend

(01:21:00):
you for it.
I'm going to leave it on the positive side.
I'm not going to condemn the doubt.
I'm going to benefit the doubt.
Like literally benefiting of...if you benefit, give them the benefit of the doubt.
You hear someone accuse someone of something and you're like, well, I'm going to benefit
you by doubting that you did that or something.

(01:21:22):
Is that what...it's one of those phrases that mean nothing.
Like someone...everyone just says benefit of the doubt, benefit of the doubt.
And what does that even mean really?
Precision of speech.
Yeah.
Where it identifies judgment, there's a judgment involved in that.
The reason you doubt in the first place.
So I would like to talk about that now.

(01:21:44):
Doubt is part of judgment.
You're doubting that something's true or you're doubting that it's false.
Right.
You know, someone said you're wrong.
Well, I doubt that, that I'm wrong.
Yeah.
So I believe I'm right.
And my doubt of your statement that I'm wrong, you know, let's discuss this.
But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and think that I'm wrong.

(01:22:05):
Now let's approach that from that standpoint.
So the benefit of the doubt is I'm doubting that you did something, but the benefit is
let's suppose the opposite for a while.
Okay.
Let's assume the best about this situation for a minute.
So if you doubt something, it means you think it's not true, but it didn't happen that way.

(01:22:29):
Yeah.
If I could benefit the doubt, perhaps it did happen that way.
So I doubt it.
It didn't happen that way.
I'm doubting that that's happened.
But if I could give the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to assume or allow that it happened
that way.
I'm going to in the middle of this judgment table, I'm not gonna commend you, not going to tell
you you're right, but I'm going to allow it to exist as that benefit.

(01:22:49):
My benefit is to stay in the middle of the road with this.
I understand the meaning of the phrase.
I just think that it's one of those phrases that we should do without and just say what
we mean plainly.
So what else would you say?
You would say, you say that this is true, and I'm going to allow that perhaps it is

(01:23:12):
true even though I didn't believe it straight off.
See, you just disrespected me right there, and I feel poorly because of that.
So I'll give you that example.
But if you want to say you're giving them the benefit of the doubt, then you are actually
saying, okay, I will consider your point.

(01:23:33):
I'm going to withhold judgment on it.
I'm going to withhold...
Consider your point, withhold judgment, benefit of the doubt.
You accused me of using too many words because one of your introductory statements back to
me was, I know what the words mean.
Stop explaining to me what the words mean.
Is that what you said to me?
Yeah, I said, I get what it means.

(01:23:54):
I get what it means, but it's just one of those phrases that we shouldn't use because
it's meaning...
Right, that's what you said.
True meaning is being lost.
So you think my thinking is in a wrong direction in regard to this idea.
You said you're going down a path that I don't want to go down.
I know what it means.

(01:24:14):
Shut up and listen to what I'm trying to say.
I was getting annoyed because you kept saying benefit like it was the opposite.
You kept saying benefit of the doubt and you were saying...
And you don't believe it's opposite.
So that's good.
Tell me more about that.
Why is benefit not opposite?
Benefit is something that's good.

(01:24:36):
I'm going to benefit you with this.
So if you are benefiting someone with a doubt, that means that you're going to...
It's like someone told you something about this person.
Someone told me that President Trump is a tyrant or whatever or the equivalent of Hitler

(01:25:02):
and I'm going to give Trump the benefit of the doubt.
I'm going to doubt what that person said about him.
I'm going to benefit him with my doubting what that person said about him.
You're benefiting him.
Yeah.
I'm going to give him the benefit of my doubt.
Because you possibly think that he's Hitler or a dictator, a tyrant.

(01:25:23):
Because somebody told me, so I could think that.
Someone told you, so it's possible that he's a tyrant.
You're saying, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and...
And not think that straight off.
I'm going to withhold judgment right now.
I'm not going to just label him as a tyrant.
I'm going to allow him to do what he does.
Let him be in the presidency.
Let's see how it works.

(01:25:43):
And I'm not going to place judgment.
I'm not going to put my next YouTube video or my next TikTok statement that he is a tyrant.
Right.
I'm not going to say that right now.
I'll wait.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now, but I still hold the doubt.
The doubt still is there.
So it's still possible that he's a tyrant.
But I'm benefiting...

(01:26:03):
I'm giving him the benefit of that doubt.
The subject of the doubt is the person saying something negative about Trump.
Subject of the doubt.
I'm doubting them, the third party.
I'm doubting them.
I'm not doubting Trump.
The doubt is relating to that third person.
You're talking to the person, but you're not...

(01:26:25):
So you're telling the third person, you believe he's a tyrant.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.
No, I'm giving Trump the benefit of the doubt.
Okay.
So you're talking to the third person.
He's saying, Trump's a tyrant, but I'm giving Trump the benefit of the doubt because I'm
going to reserve judgment on that.
He might be a tyrant.
He might not.
He might be a benefactor.

(01:26:46):
Yeah.
We'll find out.
We will tell through time what he is.
And the guy says, I know he's a tyrant.
Oh, it's obvious.
It's obvious.
Yeah.
They're not giving Trump the benefit of the doubt.
I am like that.
That is a...
Okay.
That's what I come to understand that it means.
That's how you see it.
That's how you see it.

(01:27:07):
Your judgment on that though...
Is wrong?
Is he going to tell me?
His judgment, because it's negative, it's a he.
His judgment being negative, that he's a tyrant, that's judgmental.
He's a victim.
The reason he stated that is because he's a victim.
Yes.
So you're saying, more maturely, he immaturely independently is saying, now he's going to

(01:27:30):
make all my rights disappear.
I'm a guy that's afraid of not being able to have an abortion if I want one.
So he's a victim.
That's why he's stated that opinion about a tyrant.
You're saying, I'm going to take a more mature stance.
I'm going to give Trump the benefit of the doubt and indicate that I'm going to reserve

(01:27:50):
a judgment.
Withhold judgment.
I'm not going to...
Whatever you said, something else that you're doing here.
I'm going to allow it.
I'm going to allow what you said.
Judges will say that at times too, when someone says objection, I object.
Well, I'm going to allow it this time.
So overruled.
Your objection sustained or not going to sustain that objection.

(01:28:13):
So I'm going to allow it.
I'm going to allow it right this time because we're not going to base judgment on that issue.
Let's continue the conversation.
Let's continue the trial.
So withholding judgment is a more mature stance.
So is that a mature stance?
Can you be more mature?
If you exact a judgment.
I think when you withhold judgment, what you're doing is you're withholding a negative or

(01:28:38):
a positive judgment.
You're keeping the judgment neutral because there is...
Can you not judge something?
I think we talked about that, right?
We can't not judge.
We can't not have a judgment.
Yeah.
But if you maintain neutrality, if you identify...
Well, the things you can change.

(01:28:59):
If you identify it's something I can't change, so I'm okay with it.
I'm not going to do anything about it.
I'm going to allow it because...
Not necessarily promote it, but you know.
Yeah.
I'm not going to say he's great.
He's a king or a tyrant or whatever.
I don't really hold an opinion and I do hold an opinion.

(01:29:21):
I definitely hold an opinion, but I'm not going to voice it.
I'm not going to make it instrumental in our conversation, in our relationship right now.
So that's benefit of the doubt.
Yeah.
That's bringing you back to the center.
Benefit of the doubt may just bring everything back to the center to allow.
Okay.
I think that makes sense.
If something's true.

(01:29:42):
So you're saying that, do you believe in God?
God's true is a well-positive thing.
Instead of condemning it, saying God's not true or saying definitely God's true, you're
going to give that supposition that God exists, the benefit of the doubt and just remain neutral
with it.
I'm not going to fight against it.
I'm not going to fight for it.

(01:30:03):
I think you could say that.
So that's where should we be living our lives in that center of if you can't change it?
So you said too, judgments, you want to use judgments appropriately for things that you
can make better.
If you determine you're not going to make God any better or worse.
I had that question in regard to God.
To glorify God, to glorify God.

(01:30:27):
If God is this all glorious being, why do we need to glorify him?
He doesn't need us.
So let's just remain neutral in that.
Let him have his glory or let him have no glory on one side or the other.
But we are, I'm here.
Let me be me.
Yeah.
I mean, there are people who believe that it is their job on this earth to testify of

(01:30:50):
the goodness of God.
And so that's maybe how they glorify him.
They do the work that they think is necessary for their job, their job as a human.
Their job is to bring people to Christ.
So right.
And Jesus is the center of everything and which he is perhaps and everything there.

(01:31:12):
But you could say, I'm going to give you the benefit, give God the benefit of the doubt.
Is that what you're doing?
Are you giving God the benefit of the doubt?
And in that case or?
I would be giving, no, I would be giving the other side the benefit of the doubt.
I would be doubting the other side.
I'd be doubting the side that says there's no God.

(01:31:34):
So yes, I'm benefiting God with the doubt, with doubting the other side.
Yeah.
So I'm giving God the benefit of the doubt.
It's still in relation to the subject.
The subject of the doubt is where the benefit applies.
Benefit applies to the subject of the doubt.
What it doubts.
That's the subject of the benefit.
I think there's the person that's getting, we're getting into the weeds with this phrase.

(01:31:59):
I don't think it really matters because it does have a meaning and it's everybody basically
knows what it means, but.
But nobody knows what it means.
Nobody knows what it means.
So I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and allow that to just sit rather than
judging you.
Okay.
Being shallow.
Maybe I should write an article about the benefit of the doubt.

(01:32:22):
I bet there's already one out there.
I should just look it up.
Yeah.
We were going to talk about maturity, not benefit of the doubt.
So right.
Right.
Maturity may be a better idea.
Yeah.
All right.
No doubt that does deserve delving into.
It's one of those topics that we say we talk about that is major importance or maybe not

(01:32:43):
at all.
Yeah.
It's mundane perhaps.
Yeah.
All right.
I think my minute is up.
So is this a, is this okay to stop here?
Yep.
All right.
We're good.
Well, this has been a fun conversation and I didn't get bored at all in the middle of
that anywhere.

(01:33:05):
You got upset a couple of times, but not bored.
Did I get upset?
Yes.
I think upset is inappropriate.
Well, I did.
I did.
You disrespected me.
You got me.
Clearly.
So what are we talking about next week?
Now that we talked about the sides of the continuum of what's the typical place to sit,
what's neurotypical mean and where should you be on this?

(01:33:28):
Is it a spectrum?
If it's a spectrum, if it's a binary, if it's this continuum, what is neurotypical?
What is it?
Yes.
What is typical and what is neuro?
Yeah.
We'll, we'll find out where it came from, why it, why it was introduced and what it
relates to.
And I think it's a recent word as well.

(01:33:49):
It has to do with the autism spectrum and spectrumizing everybody.
Then it became a neurotypical concept.
So we'll talk about all the aspects of that, whatever we can think.
Great.
Great.
Okay.
All right, everyone.
[outro] Thanks for taking the time to listen to this episode and we appreciate feedback and comments

(01:34:12):
and topic requests.
You can find all of our contact information in the show notes.
We hope you have a great week.
Thanks.
Excellent.
Okay.
Bye.
Good night.

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#28 Judge thy neighbor

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