November 4, 2025 • 48 mins
What is it like to reach compassion fatigue and coping with it through addiction. Special guest Ashlea Dillard, retired Firefighter and now mental health counselor, as she discusses compassion fatigue and burnout with negative and faulty coping mechanisms. Her podcast is https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sit-around-the-fire/id1779172848
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Time again for Doc Joc to Addiction Lifeguard
Podcast.
I am Dr.
Dr.
Burke, a psychologist, licensedprofessional counselor, and
addiction specialist.
If you are suffering fromaddiction, injury, trauma,
whatever it is, I'm here tohelp.
If you're in search of help, tryto get your life back together.
Join me here at Doc Joc to theAddiction Life Guard, the
(00:22):
Addiction Recovery Podcast.
I wanted to be real clear aboutwhat this podcast is intended
for.
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes, but
(00:45):
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
please seek that out.
If you're in dire need of help,you can go to your nearest
emergency room, or you can checkinto a rehab center or call a
counselor like me and talk aboutyour problems and work through
them.
But don't rely on a podcast tobe that form of help.
(01:06):
It's not.
It's just a podcast.
It's for entertainment andinformation only.
So let's keep it in that light,alright?
Have a good time, learnsomething, and then get the real
help that you need from aprofessional.
(01:30):
So today on the podcast, I havea guest.
Her name is Ashley Dillard, andshe's the host of Sit Around the
Fire, which is a podcast that'savailable where, Ashley?
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
All places.
SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
All of them.
Okay.
All of them.
And she works, um, she she'salso a private practice
counselor, and she works with avariety of people, but I think
her main focus is on firstresponders.
So that'd be what firefighters,medics, police officers, people
who see trauma really up close.
They're the first ones.
(02:07):
Um, so what we're gonna talkabout is what happens when
rescuers need to be rescued, um,and the impact of that exposure
to trauma and then the directtrauma itself, and kind of what
happens to people who are inthose positions.
And you, I guess you could applythis to people that are like
(02:28):
emergency room personnel,doctors, nurses, um, anything
like that, medics in themilitary, people who just really
get hit with that heavy trauma.
So that's what I wanted to talkabout with Ashley today.
So, welcome, Ashley.
SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
Thank you.
I'm so honored and excited to behere.
SPEAKER_03 (02:46):
Yeah, this is this is awesome.
So tell me a little bit about umyour your background.
Like how did you be how did youstart?
You were you were a firefighterand uh EMT or paramedic as well,
or just a firefighter?
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
Uh paramedic too.
SPEAKER_03 (03:01):
Paramedic too, okay.
So you went from that and thennow you're doing counseling and
podcasting.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:08):
So how did that happen?
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Yeah, so it's it has been a really incredible journey
so far.
So um, yeah, I worked on theambulance and then also worked
on the fire and did theparamedic thing on the fire
department as well for justshort of 10 years uh here in
Colorado.
(03:31):
So um it is so funny when youlook back and reflect on it
because when you're in it, whenyou're online and you're in the
thick of it, you don't alwayssee what's going on, and you
don't always recognize a lot ofthese changes that start to
happen within yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (03:49):
Inside of you when you're getting exposed to the
trauma, the stuff you're seeing.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
Exactly.
So, like what becomes normal isnot really, I don't always like
using the word normal, but isnot normal anymore.
But it feels so normal to uswhen we're when we're in it and
we experience it.
So um having gone through, Imean, can't even count how many
(04:16):
dead people you see or stuffthat you see.
Um, but getting to a point whereyou realize like it's not really
affecting you anymore, like itdoesn't feel um you really don't
feel anything.
So you feel that numb kind ofit's just another call, it's
just another day, and or like inour nature of making jokes about
(04:38):
things to to get through or todesensitize.
So uh when I went to FireAcademy, I found that I was
struggling quite a bit withinsome of the confined space
training.
So I would get into those themazes or the situations and
experience what a lot of peoplehave heard of kind of the phobic
(05:02):
wave, where your whole body justliterally shuts down out of
learning now as a protectivemechanism for we're in what is
perceived as a high threat,danger situation.
We're literally shutting thingsoff.
Um, but when you're in the midstof training and trying to do
something, you can't have thathappen.
(05:23):
Um and what I realized in themoment, I had some really wise
mentors and people looking outfor me who advocated that I
needed to go get some extra helpand to really dive into what was
going on.
So I went to some therapies,different modalities of it, but
(05:45):
went to go see somebody whospecifically did uh hypnosis and
work through that modalityspecifically.
But what we came across was myresponse in the mazes, that
stress response that I wasexperiencing wasn't actually
really related to going throughthe rat maze, as I call it.
(06:06):
But it was actually because Ihad a close friend and a crew
member who had committed suicideum about six months before I was
in Fire Academy.
And I the physiological responsethat I was having in the that
maze was exactly what I wasfeeling in that moment when we
got notified of what hadhappened.
(06:29):
And so it is the whole journeyof realizing that these things
add up over time and that whenwe don't process things or we
suppress things and push thingsdown, like there is a a point to
where it's too much.
And so luckily, I was able to doa lot of work with that in the
(06:52):
moment.
And he, my therapist at thetime, was the one who encouraged
me about what do you want to dowhen you can't do this job
anymore?
Or what if you don't want to dothis job anymore?
And the cocky, like brand newfirefighter in me said, What are
you talking about?
Like, I'm gonna do this careerfor 25 years and retire.
SPEAKER_03 (07:12):
I'm gonna last forever.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
Yeah, exactly.
I don't need a backup plan.
Um I got my cape, but exactly,yeah, I'm the hero.
So, but that really resonatedwith me over time when I sat
with it and thought about likeactually, like, what is it that
I would do?
Like, what happens?
Because we know that this careercan be taken away in an instant
(07:34):
if you get hurt or somethinghappens.
Um, and I didn't want to be inthat spot.
So I decided to go back toschool while I was working and
uh finished my undergrad and mymaster's degree in mental health
and clinical counseling.
And as I continued to moveforward with that, it just
(07:54):
became clearer and clearer formy own sake that um I needed to
make some changes.
So I was getting incrediblyburned out on the job.
Um, it is like it felt like Ihad been there for 20 years, but
I had only been there for lessthan 10.
And so the the burnout and thenot wanting to be at work, not
(08:20):
excited to run calls, um, andthen coming home and hearing
some things of like, like, whyare you being so short with me,
or why are you so irritated?
Or why um like just it was justbizarre to see, as well as like,
okay, why am why am I drinkingso much alcohol?
(08:40):
Why am I feeling like I can'tever get good rest?
Or it just all these thingsstarted to click and make sense
of I needed to make a change formyself.
Um, either find a way to do thecareer in a healthy longevity
type state, or I was gonna haveto make a shift.
(09:00):
So I decided to retire,realizing that as you know, that
doing both of these jobs, beingonline and trying to do this was
going to be the worst decisionto me.
SPEAKER_03 (09:13):
Yeah, you can't do that.
No, you can't analyze whatyou're going through well and
then go through it and thenanalyze it again.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
No, no, absolutely not.
So I sat with it, talked with alot of people, and just decided
now was the time.
So I retired.
And what several people I workedwith used to say is like you're
going to become a different kindof helper now.
So it was letting letting go ofbeing a paramedic, being a
(09:43):
firefighter, and realizing likewhere I needed to serve
differently.
And um I had seen too manypeople who had chosen a
different path that led to moresuffering, or they got to the
point where they did end upcommitting suicide because they
(10:03):
just had nothing left.
And I got like really tired ofthat narrative.
So I I started the mission ofending the suffering and showing
up for the people you mentioned,like the first responders, and
how we don't ask for help untilit's really, really bad, if we
do ask for help at that point.
SPEAKER_03 (10:23):
So well, that's the that's what happens in the
process of being exposed totraumatic events is that um
there's the compassion fatiguebecause you're being a first
responder or somebody who iscalled upon to act in those
situations, whatever it is.
So they're you're you're showingcompassion for the person, but
you get to the point wherethere's compassion fatigue, and
(10:44):
like you said, you the burnoutof like you you start shutting
it off.
And that's what people do a lotof times.
This happens in in families ofaddicts too.
Um, like if children are growingup in an addict home, they're
they're exposed to constanttraumatic events going on and
they learn to just shut down.
Um, one of the things I noticedwhen I uh was was doing that
(11:07):
kind of work, but then doing uhwork as a as a counselor, I
noticed that the people whotended to be first responders or
emergency room doctors or nursesor uh PAs, people that that are
in the front lines, they tendedto come from chaotic, traumatic
homes because they were veryskilled at shutting it off.
(11:29):
So they could they could operatelike a robot.
Uh, you know, oh, somebody'slost their leg, tourniquet, no
problem, blood everywhere.
They just they have no responseat all emotionally.
And then when it's over with,they go home, they're curled up
on the floor in a fetal positionbecause that's when the emotion
then starts hitting them.
But the compassion fatigue hits,and then that's when you realize
(11:51):
that uh there's like I justdon't have it in me anymore, and
then you get emotional collapse,and that's that's exactly what
you're describing.
You get driven to the pointwhere you just can't do it
anymore.
Um, but the the first part ofwhat you said was really
interesting.
You said that you yourselfdidn't you you didn't notice
that there was a changehappening um in you, uh, but
(12:15):
it's you're getting the feedbackfrom other people, so that
invisible burnout is what'swhat's going on, you know,
because you're trying to adaptaround it.
And it's not I I don't want to Idon't want to paint everybody
who's a first responder with ahuge broad brush because some
people can handle more of thatand they're fine until they get
(12:39):
to a certain point, other peoplecan handle very little of it,
some people just seem to be ableto just do it forever.
Like they don't actually getburned out, they're just like
that.
And that's uh, you know, they sonot everybody's the same, but I
think pretty much if you go intoit with the idea that you're
(13:02):
helping others, that by by itsdescription is compassion,
right?
And so it's easy to get to thatcompassion fatigue and then you
start compensating.
Um, what I say all the time toum people in my practice and on
these podcasts um that you uhyou know, isolation is
(13:26):
addiction's best friend, andwhen you're going home and you
have to isolate because youcan't tell people all the
horribleness that you're gettingexposed to, you're just gonna
isolate, and then that's wheresomething happens, so you're
uncomfortable, and that's we usebecause we're uncomfortable, and
so the discomfort starts risingand rising.
(13:47):
That's a problem.
Um, so people who have careersthat are working where there's a
lot of adrenaline going on,there's an adrenaline dump.
Um, you can get addicted tothat.
I don't know about you, but Inoticed when I stopped doing the
the the work that had a lot ofadrenaline attached to it, I
(14:09):
started ramping up theactivities that had adrenaline
attached to it.
Motorcycles, uh fighting,competitive fighting, uh
skateboarding.
I mean, it was just likewhatever I could get an
adrenaline dump from.
Did you have that same thing?
Did you get that going on?
SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
Oh, absolutely.
I it's funny that you bring itup because I noticed that
actually when I would get on aroller coaster.
So when I was in the thick ofworking and in that time span, I
would go jump on a rollercoaster and I wouldn't feel
anything.
It was like, I can't like youremember what roller coasters
used to be like and that likedrop in your stomach, and this
(14:49):
is so exciting, and it was justlike very bland.
And I thought, holy cow, likewhat has happened to me?
Like, I and I see this all thetime too with I mean co-workers
from the past, but also peoplewithin my practice is like the
threshold starts getting higherand higher.
So now we're looking for morethings to make that adrenaline
(15:14):
dump happen.
So now it's not just driving mymotorcycle at 100 miles per
hour.
Now it's like maybe having acouple of drinks and then
driving 100 miles per hour, orthe you know, gambling gets out
of control, or you know, alcoholis not working anymore.
Now I need to try something alittle bit different.
And it's the the behaviors andthe patterns just build upon
(15:37):
themselves because the thresholdgets so high, and you just
realize like, whew, like uh it'sway out of check.
And I I think so much of thathappens from the neuroplasticity
and the neurotransmitter side aswell, too, is those those it
literally your brain getsrewired to a new kind of
(15:59):
stimulus, absolutely does, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:01):
And then the craving for the adrenaline, but you also
end up with the dopamine hitbecause like this chaos feels
normal, feels good, and thenwhen you're not in chaos, you're
not getting the dopamine hit.
So then you're gonna like yousaid, like you're gonna you're
gonna up the ante with whateverit is that's the the get you the
adrenaline dump.
(16:22):
The the the the non-firstresponder um people who have
addiction issues, they'reconstantly chasing chaos.
And uh first responders chasethat action, right?
Addicts will chase the chaos.
And I would imagine if you're afirst responder, you're gonna be
you know, it's you chase themboth.
(16:44):
Um you know what, you know, Idon't know if you have much
experience with residentialtreatment programs, but when
somebody comes into aresidential treatment program
and they're gonna stay there 30days, 60, 90 days, they walk in.
One of the things that happensin the first like three, four
days is that person will come inand start creating chaos.
(17:05):
You know, there's like 20 peoplealready in the program.
This guy comes in and he startspicking on people and he's
creating drama and fight, andeverybody knows, like, oh, he he
just got here.
He he'll calm down.
It'll take up three or four daysbecause there's not enough
chaos.
It's peaceful, it's quiet,everybody's gonna chill.
Because they've been there forthree weeks, you know, and here
(17:26):
comes Johnny lately, and he'sgonna create chaos.
He needs that, he needs thatadrenaline.
Um but in the first responderworld, yeah, it's it's just it's
like firefighters.
You're you're at you're in thefirehouse, and then the bell
rings and you don't know what inthe world you're gonna re-run
into.
But it's bad, most likely,because that's why somebody
(17:47):
called, right?
Um so in the usage world, youget you know, you have a
abstaining and then you getsobriety, but you have to have
that emotional sobriety as well.
And and that kind of happens atthe same time.
Um so all right.
(18:07):
So that's w in in the world, inyour world, we'll just call it
your world, um everybody withthe masks and the capes and
they're flying around andthey're saving people.
Um you you mentioned that likefirst responder types and uh
people in the in the front linesof stuff, they won't ask for
(18:28):
help.
Is that is that a pride thing,or is that a professional that's
a weakness thing, or why why dothey resist asking for help?
SPEAKER_00 (18:38):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
I've come to reflect on andrealize that it's like actually
a couple of different things.
I think there is a huge elementto the pride side, like there's
still that admitting andaccepting that I'm not okay or
that there is something goingalong going on with you and that
(19:02):
you're not functioning well,there's a lot of break breaking
that apart and accepting itwithout or it just brings a lot
of shame and guilt, really.
If you when you admit toyourself and you start hearing
the things that you actuallybelieve of if there's something
wrong with me or I'm broken, orlike whatever the narrative is
(19:23):
that's playing in your head,once you you have to be willing
to accept that and not bring theshame and guilt along with it.
And that requires a lot.
That requires a lot for peopleto do to get to that point too.
SPEAKER_03 (19:37):
So you're talking, you're talking about the
emotional side, right?
You're talking about like I'memotionally, I'm I'm in the
point of compassion, uh fatigueand and emotional collapse.
So that pride and that you know,I it's a weakness thing.
Is that because the the thefirst responder world
predominantly started out as theboys' club?
And so there's that branding toit.
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
I think so.
And if you think back, even likeyou know, grandparents,
great-grandparents coming homefrom war, World War II, you
know, Vietnam War, like it's thesame narrative that's playing
over, is like you don't havetime to talk about your problems
or what's going on.
You need to like show up, doyour work, provide for your
(20:22):
family.
Like there's no space for theemotional side of it.
And it's just a huge, it's Imean, it's getting better.
The stigma for sure around thatis getting better because
there's such a push now withlike not just settling for
suffering, but it's still thesame.
A lot of it's the same.
Like, you should I mean, Iremember even being told going
(20:45):
through you know, differenttrainings and stuff is like if
you can't handle this, you'renot gonna be able to make it and
do this job.
And so, like how twisted thatnarrative is on a human level of
like, oh, you can't handleseeing somebody like completely
uh decapitated on the side ofthe road, or you can't see see
(21:06):
the worst of the worst.
Like, if you can't handle that,you're not gonna be able to do
the job.
But thinking of how our brainsare wired and our bodies
function is like we're notreally meant to see that
anyways.
And so that whole idea of if Iif I say something, or if I go
to get the help, there'ssomething wrong with me, or I'm
(21:28):
weak, or I am not gonna be ableto do the job, or my crew is
gonna see me as weak and not beable to do what I need to do is
a huge hindrance, I think, forpeople just suffering and not
getting the help that they needto.
SPEAKER_03 (21:45):
Yeah, it's just like it's like you're expected to be
a sociopath to be able tofunction, uh, because you just
don't care about other people'sfeelings, and oh, that person's
leg is missing, or oh look,they're eviscerated, and you
know, or they burned to death,and you know, is there are we
going for lunch after this, oryou know, it's like you can't
that's it?
Yeah, it's really that's normal,yeah.
(22:06):
Yeah, so uh and I I you know wein in when people get exposed to
trauma um through their throughtheir lives, whether they're a
first responder or maybe theirtheir families are just a big
hot mess, and there's suicideand you know, cancer and all
this stuff that that affectsthem negatively and makes them
(22:27):
uncomfortable.
And then that's why they starttaking on chemicals to to cope
with that as their primarycoping mechanism.
But the families of addicts,they're getting exposed to the
trauma of watching their addictfamily member just disintegrate,
and it destroys families.
Um, but those families have tobuild those emotional firewalls,
(22:48):
and if you can do it in apositive way, that's great, but
a lot of times it's in anegative way too.
Um, but you get the samesilence, you know, either way.
Um so vulnerability in theadmission of this equals
weakness.
Um, so what what starts to breakthe silence?
(23:11):
Is it uh peer support?
Is it is it therapy?
Is it hitting bottom?
I mean, what what is the thingthat starts to break that
silence?
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
I think it's a little bit of all the things.
Um I think for me it was sittingwith like, am I gonna be if I
continue on the path that I'mon, will I be okay like
destroying my home life?
Will I be okay destroying myrelationship?
Uh will I honestly like will Ibe okay destroying my body
(23:43):
because my the physical symptomsof things showing up again, what
we see is like kind of normal,like it isn't physiologically
normal.
Am I willing to sacrifice allthose things to stay in silence,
basically, or to keepsuppressing things and to choose
not to look at things and dothings in a healthy way?
(24:06):
Because there is a healthy wayyou can do the career or you can
support, you know, somebodywho's going through a struggle
with addiction.
You can do it, you just have tohave the right tools and
resources.
So I think it's really aninternal inquisition of asking
yourself, like, am I sick enoughof my suffering?
Like, am I and and the cost ofwhat that's gonna be on the
(24:29):
other side?
Is it worth it?
Because you know just as well,like if the career is gone, like
the the wheel moves on.
So, like as soon as you leave,they're gonna put someone else
in your seat.
Or like that continues, likethey have to have people doing
the job.
But like, if you walk away fromthe job, have you destroyed
everything else in your life,your family?
(24:52):
You like all the things inrealizing this whole mentality
around self-sacrifice isn'tnecessary, like it's it's a
badge of honor we wear that'snot really the right badge to be
putting on.
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:07):
There's a um you know, in the 12 steps, I don't
know how familiar you are withthem, but that's you're
describing step one, like mylife's become unmanageable.
And but but when you're in aposition where managing your
life is a rec is a requirementof your job, which for a lot of
(25:27):
people is their sole identity,that's a tough call to make to
know how to reach out for helpor when to reach out for help.
You know, I uh it's interesting.
I've had firefighters in here,I've never had a police officer.
I've never had a police officer.
I'm around police officers alot.
I've never had a police officer.
(25:47):
And I'm like, won't go totherapy, huh?
You guys are just like themilitary guys, you don't like
talking.
Okay, I get it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:56):
Um but you gotta you gotta find some way to some some
place to go.
Um and you know, the the theblue wall is one that is
virtually impossible to cross,um, which is probably why I
don't have police officers inhere.
They should come, but they won'tcome.
(26:17):
Um, it's probably the ultimatein weakness.
And and can you imagine you'resitting in a in an AA meeting
and there's Officer Donaldsonright there?
Like, didn't he pull me over forspeeding the other day?
He's not gonna go to an AAmeeting.
So I, you know, that wouldthat's not that's cut off.
Same thing happens with doctors,medical doctors.
(26:37):
They're not gonna come becausethey don't want to run into a
patient, you know.
That's I and they tell me that.
Like, I can't I can't go tomeetings.
I can't I get it, I get it.
But the real the realizationthat I can't do this anymore,
like I gotta change.
Um so um to get out of thatfire, to get out of the the the
(27:00):
fire is like what do you do toget out of the fire?
And you know, it may cost yousomething, but you know what?
Listen, recovery, there's alwaysa consequence, you know.
There's it's the very nature ofrecovery is I'm about to lose
the thing I didn't want to lose,or I've already lost it.
That's the point where peopleget into recovery,
(27:20):
unfortunately.
Um some people are willing tolose a lot before they get
there, but um so um when thatmoment finally comes, do you
think to in today's world it'sit's easier to get access to
help than it used to be 20 yearsago, 30 years ago?
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
Yes and no.
I think that there are a lotmore ample resources out, and
there's a lot of avenues, evenjust the podcasting side of
things for people to at leaststart to hear something
different, a different narrativearound getting help, is is a
start.
And I think I really trulybelieve like all you need is a
(28:07):
willingness, like that's all youneed, and like you can make
massive shifts and changes, butyou just have to be willing to
show up, really.
Um but what I really like, and Ithink the movement is heading
that way, is the the old methodof tradition, what we call
traditional therapy, ischanging, and like there's so
(28:30):
many new progressive uh ways ofdoing the work, like that is
opening up the door to some ofthese folks that still have that
strong resistance towardstherapy.
Or I hear it all the time, likepeople are like, Yeah, I went to
therapy when my parents gotdivorced and I hated it.
SPEAKER_03 (28:48):
Yeah, when I was 15.
SPEAKER_00 (28:51):
Why you never went back to therapy again.
SPEAKER_03 (28:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:54):
Um, but realizing that it's not all necessarily
like what you think it is, andrealizing that there's so much
more to it than using it justwhen you're in the pits, is it
can be used for incrediblepersonal growth and
transformation.
And so I really love themovement that's happening where
(29:14):
there's just so many differentmodalities for people to tap
into.
And I always try to compare itto people of if we're fixing a
picture uh element on your car,your engine is not functioning,
is knowing that we can't justcome in with a wrench and expect
to fix the problem.
It's like we have to use amultitude of tools and be
(29:36):
willing and open to exploringdifferent things that as we're
working on.
So just like individual therapyand work is important, same with
group work, like you talk about,or maybe it's doing you know,
equine therapy or uh hot andcold therapy, like there's so
many different things, but youhave to come at it all at all
(29:57):
different ways, and I thinkthat's what's really Going to
make the big shift for people isthe traditional methods aren't
the only way of doing the work.
SPEAKER_03 (30:07):
Yep.
Laying on the couch, listeningto the Freudian therapist uh,
you know, ask you a question andlet you talk for an hour.
Um yeah, there's other things,EMDR, hypnotherapy, uh trauma,
yoga therapy.
I mean, there just you name it,man.
That that Bessel Vanderkohlk'sbook, uh, The Body Keeps the
Score, is an awesome resourcefor an understanding of like all
(30:30):
the different things that youcan do and the effect of those
things.
Um how many how many uh of yourclients that you see are first
responders in your in yourpractice?
What would you say?
Like what percent?
SPEAKER_00 (30:45):
I'd say probably like 95% are first responders
military or spouses of a firstresponder or military member.
SPEAKER_03 (30:54):
So it's do they come to you because you get it?
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
I think that's a huge piece of it, is like
knowing for one, I don't presentmyself as a traditional
counselor.
So I tell people that right offthe bat is I don't work in
traditional methods and I don'treally like traditional
counseling.
So, but the being able to relateto I know what it feels like, I
(31:21):
know what I can relate to howthat feels to you, I know the
culture, like at least on somelevel.
I've never been a cop,obviously, but like I can
understand it's a very similartype experience.
Um but also I think like thebiggest way people come to me is
because someone else comes andthen they tell their friend.
(31:44):
So they start to see a shift insomebody they work with and then
get curious and ask, like, hey,what are you different?
Or or the person who's done thework on themselves starts to
recognize, hey, I see yoursuffering, like how can I show
up for you?
And so it's just become a verycool network and a community
(32:05):
where that's always been mydream and passion is that people
heal and then they go out andhelp other people heal.
So it becomes a movement, moreor less, um, in that way.
SPEAKER_03 (32:16):
So, all right, so let me ask you a couple of
questions then um around that.
So, how how do let's that's thefirst responders, but let me ask
you a question about thefamilies of first responders,
the people that are watchingthis person, as you said in your
words, transforming and changingand not realizing that they're
changing, right?
And then you start gettingpeppered with those questions
(32:38):
like, what's wrong?
Are you okay?
And I'm fine, I'm fine.
Well, you don't seem fine, andyou're like doing all kinds of
weird uh faulty coping mechanismtechniques to deal with your own
stuff.
But the family members, so howdo families of first responders
stay healthy?
What should they do or what canthey do when they're watching
this person who's changingbecause of their job?
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
I'm so glad that you brought this up because this has
been like such a big passion ofmine moving forward, because the
what I see a lot in terms ofespecially particularly spouses,
is they feel this almost asecondary need to the
self-sacrifice.
Then the I think this isrelative to for people going
(33:23):
through addiction as well, isyou feel like your problems or
what you're going through isminimalized, or you have to
minimize it because the focusneeds to be on the other person,
they need to get into theirsessions, they need to go do
this therapy, but you don'trealize, like you mentioned,
that secondary shock wave orthat secondary trauma that they
(33:45):
feel as well is you both people,whether it's two spouses or
partners or even the family, islike everybody needs to be doing
the work at the same time.
Like everybody needs to puttheir focus and be willing to
say, like, I'm worthy of goingto get support that I need to,
(34:08):
because going, I mean, just ifyou broke it down even on the
fireside, is like out here, mostof us work uh 48, 96 schedules,
so we're on shift for two daysoff or four.
It's like, what does it feellike for the person at home to
be a single parent for 48 hours?
And you can't tell me that thatdoesn't like cause some kind of
(34:30):
stress within your life, orthat's really hard, or being
gone on holidays, or if you'reyou know, someone who's helping
someone through an addiction,like the a mental and the
emotional requirement for that,like you can't tell me that
doesn't cause stress within you.
Yeah, because you have to beable to say, like, I value
(34:55):
myself, I'm important enough, Iam gonna advocate for myself to
go get support as well.
And the healing really needs tohappen.
I really think like side byside, not I'm not saying
necessarily like couples therapyfor everybody, no, but each
person in the involved in theuniverse that they're in.
SPEAKER_03 (35:14):
But in in the recovery community, um, we have
a lot of sayings, and one ofthem is individuals don't get
sober, groups do.
And you could translate that tofamilies do.
So I'm always demanding that thethe husband, wife, brother,
sister, mother, father of theperson that's being affected by
(35:34):
this coping mechanism of theaddiction, that they've got to
be recovering from thataddiction, as well as the addict
has to be recovering from theaddiction.
So they have to go to group.
It's you know what's reallyfunny is there's so much
resistance to that.
I this happens all the time.
Like, but it's not my problem.
They're the ones that had theissue, and it's like, yes, but
(35:55):
you're you know, you're runningaround trying to fix their
problem.
You didn't start out yourrelationship like that.
Do you realize you're in thatposition?
And they can't see it becausethey're just so blinded by this
other person who they love, isin this crazy situation, and
that's their focus, they justforget about themselves, and um,
so it's yeah, that's a good andand with first responders, same
(36:19):
thing, except you're seeing thedestruction going on um from
that distance.
So um, yeah, you can't you can'theal yourself, and if you're not
if you just like doctors,doctors can't be performing
surgery on their own childbecause your objectivity is
(36:40):
gone, and so you can't you can'tdo that as a family member, you
can't heal yourself, and ifyou're not trained, you can't
heal the other person, and evenif you were trained, you can't
heal the other person becausethey're related to you, and
yeah, like I can't see my wifeas a client.
I don't understand why a familymember thinks that they can be
the social worker and the thecase manager for their loved one
(37:02):
who's has a problem, it's it'sinsane.
Um, yeah, but those are theroles we fall into.
SPEAKER_00 (37:08):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I have a funny story onthat one.
So I had a somebody coming infor a series of treatment, and
his wife dropped him off.
And when she dropped him off andcame in, I kind of had this
feeling of like, uh oh, like Ineed to prepare for what's about
to come.
But she uh lit both of us up.
(37:29):
Like, I don't understand why heneeds to be here.
I don't understand how like it'sthat bad.
Like it just was like, whoa, andwow, full denial.
It was a full on.
And I was like, I just let herlike have her space for a
second, and I said, like, Iwould really love it if you you
(37:50):
would find an avenue for you togo get some support through this
as well, too, because we justdon't we're so focused on the
other person, we don't often seelike what's going on, and
everybody's a mirror,everybody's a teacher.
I say that all the time inrelationship work is like your
partner is gonna triggersomething in you that is showing
(38:11):
you a growth point, and sowhatever that is, pay attention
to it in you, but like you'vegot to go do the work too,
because as this person'stransforming and changing, like
you've got to figure out how totransform and change and do the
work at the same time so thatyou guys can get to know who
each other are in this newseason of life, who this person
(38:34):
is now in the here and now, notwho they were, you know, in the
thick of dealing with work as afirst responder or in the thick
of their addiction, or all ofthat is like you really have to
like be willing to invest in theprocess alongside whoever you're
supporting, and it's just itjust it should be a
(38:57):
non-negotiable, really.
SPEAKER_03 (38:58):
It it yeah, exactly.
Um it's it's loving the personunconditionally, but not
performing a rescue yourself.
So love without the rescue.
And if you understand thatyou're in a chaotic situation,
it's not just them that's livingin the chaotic situation, it's
both of you if it's if it's ayou know a partner thing.
(39:19):
Um wow.
So I you know, you good for youthat you made the career change,
but I'm gonna give you acautionary tale here because you
jumped from one type of rescueto another type of rescue.
So you have to pay attentionyourself um to what's going on
and find your you know, you'rerecovering your outlets and
everything, and you're noddingyour head, so you agree.
(39:41):
So just keep an eye on that, allright, Ashley.
SPEAKER_00 (39:44):
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:46):
But I love what you're doing, I think it's
awesome.
Uh, I think uh anybody who youknow, like we I I was asking you
before the podcast about is yourstate part of the interstate
compact.
Um and that's for those of youwho are listening, don't know,
in the United States, uh youcan't you can't practice across
(40:09):
state lines.
So like and and wherever the theuh therapy is happening is where
the person who is receiving itlives, not the therapist.
Um so you if you if you wantsome coaching from Ashley, you
can get coaching.
SPEAKER_02 (40:27):
Yeah, not therapy.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (40:30):
But you know, for people who um make the jump from
one career and then they go andand and therapy in particular to
help others in that formercareer that you had, that's
awesome because it gives youthat perspective.
So I wish you all the luck inthe world um in and continuing
to help people.
But man, if you are a firstresponder out there and you're
(40:51):
looking for help, let me askyou, Ashley, if if somebody was
listening to this and they are afirst responder and they're and
they're having these struggleswith dealing with their trauma,
what would you tell them to do?
Like, where do they go?
Where do they start?
SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
Yeah, I would say time is of the essence.
So like don't don't wait.
I said there's an urgency todoing the work.
Um and I would say you couldstart.
There's so many different placesyou could start.
If your department has a peersupport team, that's a good
place to start.
(41:30):
Um however, you can always justgo again back to the podcast
thing is start looking andlistening to other people who
are out there doing the work.
Um, there's so many differentavenues now that you can check
out.
There's tons of grants andfunding out there too that's
helping kind of facilitate someof the work that way.
(41:53):
I'm always happy.
You can always reach out to meand I can help connect you with
somebody if you're looking forsomething specific.
But just start asking like forone.
And you don't have to askthrough work.
If if that's a concern, you cango outside of work.
SPEAKER_03 (42:10):
You know what I tell my listeners?
Listen, the COVID virus shutdownfor me had one positive, and
that is it taught people thatthey can use the internet and it
forced, particularly in therecovery community, A A N A, M
A, all the A's to go online, andthey still are out there.
(42:31):
So if you are afraid of likegetting caught, I tell people
then be be a uh be a meetingtourist, go to a meeting in
England, go to a meeting in NewZealand or Australia, or or I
tell them to stay away fromScotland because the accent is
like impossible to understand.
I've tried that a couple oftimes, and it's like half the
(42:51):
people in it you can'tunderstand.
But go to another state, likejust go to an online meeting.
And um you you can you can dothat and still get something
from it.
I like the in-person part.
You can do the same thing withtherapy, you know.
Nobody has to know that you'redoing it, you could just do it
from the privacy of your home ona phone, you know.
(43:13):
Um the the one thing you do thatthat I caution people is that
you understand that you're gonnaprobably go through two, three,
four, five, six therapistsbefore you find one that you
actually connect with, andthat's fine.
It's not I'm not disparaging mycolleagues, um, but it's you got
to have a connection, right?
SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
So find one that works for you.
SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
So go do the online thing and and find somebody.
So you can be a uh an AA, youknow, the the 12-step tourist
and and go around and find one.
You can find therapists thatway.
Um, there's really not an excusefor not doing it, other than
pride and humility, right?
(43:58):
But healing, healing is notabout being invincible, it's
about being honest.
And you know, I I need I needhelp.
I don't want it, but I need it.
So be honest, and that will getyou the healing.
Um but the other thing is, youknow, as a first responder, and
(44:22):
this this was my the number onelifeguard rule that I used to
teach when I was teaching peopleto be a lifeguard, is don't
become a victim while you'retrying to do a rescue.
Because now now they're gonnanow the next person that comes
along who's a rescuer, he'sgonna have to rescue two people.
And he's not rescuing you firstbecause you're the idiot who
jumped in when you shouldn'thave, he's gonna go for the
original victim.
(44:43):
But don't become a victim in theprocess of rescuing somebody,
you know.
If you're not equipped or youyou got some issues, man, get
some help before you start doingit.
Um so yeah, all right, goodadvice.
Yeah, good advice.
Um, you don't have to do acareer change to get to get out
of it, you know.
(45:04):
But hey, no, you know, um, youcan do something to handle it
anyway.
Well, I really like your work.
Um give us give us the plug.
So your podcast is what?
SPEAKER_00 (45:16):
Oh, yes.
So thank you.
My podcast is sit around thefire.
So, like you uh a mixturebetween like having guests come
on and share their stories ortalk about a lot of their
journeys, um, as well aseducation side or just talking
about different modalities orwork that you can do or things
to think about and focus on.
(45:37):
It's really the concept of likeif we were all sitting around
the campfire, what would we betalking about?
And it's a lot of sharingstories, sharing advice, like
words of wisdom, things likethat.
So that is the podcast.
And yes, available on all theplatforms, you can check it out
and listen to it as well.
SPEAKER_03 (45:56):
And how would somebody get a hold of you if
they wanted to reach outdirectly to you?
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
Yes.
So you can go to the websiteright now.
We're getting ready to make abig shift in it, but currently
you can go now towww.sitaroundthefire.org.
Dot org.org.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (46:14):
Not calm org.
SPEAKER_00 (46:16):
I don't actually know what the dot com one takes
you to, so that would be aninteresting.
SPEAKER_03 (46:21):
I I don't think it's you.
SPEAKER_00 (46:23):
No, it's not me.
SPEAKER_03 (46:25):
So sit around the fire.org, and there's a contact
button on there somewhere toreach out to you.
SPEAKER_00 (46:32):
Yes, yeah, yeah, there's a contact, and then you
can uh we're on the socials aswell.
It's Instagram, sit around thefire.co, and we're on Facebook,
and you there's links to allthat through the website or the
podcast, so you can get to itmany different places.
SPEAKER_03 (46:51):
I've I heard quite a few of your podcasts, they're
good, they're entertaining.
I like listening to them.
It was kind of cool.
SPEAKER_00 (46:56):
Um, yeah, they're fun.
SPEAKER_03 (46:58):
Yeah.
So all right.
Well, you know what, Ashley, Ireally appreciate coming on and
being a guest.
And um maybe we'll have to sitdown by the fire and do this
again, but it's got to be at theocean by the waves because I'm
the lifeguard.
SPEAKER_00 (47:11):
Oh, yeah.
That would be awesome.
Oh, I'd love that.
Yeah, well, thank you so much.
Yeah, and uh yeah, reallyimpactful work that you're doing
as well, too.
So it's cool to be able tocelebrate and support each
other.
SPEAKER_03 (47:24):
So yeah, cool.
All right.
Well, thanks again.
SPEAKER_00 (47:27):
You're welcome.
SPEAKER_03 (47:29):
Well, I hope you enjoyed that podcast.
I want to thank Ashley Dillerfor coming on.
And uh hey, if you're in need ofhelp, reach out to Doc Jock,
your addiction lifeguard.
I can be reached at my website,Wellspringmindbody.com.
If you like the show, pleasesubscribe and like it.
Tell your friends because uhalways like what's good.
(47:49):
And if you're getting somethingfrom it, please listen.
But if you need further help,you know, go on.
Go to the rehab, get some help,help some accounts for it, go to
the media, get some help.
I mean, it's crazy to kind ofmake you addicted by any life.
That's insane.
Don't do that, go get the help.
It's out there for you, nomatter where you are.
(48:10):
But until the next time, whenyou're tuning in to another one
of my podcasts, this is DocJock, your addiction lifeguard
saying see ya.
Time again for Doc Joc to Addiction Lifeguard
Podcast.
I am Dr.
Dr.
Burke, a psychologist, licensedprofessional counselor, and
addiction specialist.
If you are suffering fromaddiction, injury, trauma,
whatever it is, I'm here tohelp.
If you're in search of help, tryto get your life back together.
Join me here at Doc Joc to theAddiction Life Guard, the
(00:22):
Addiction Recovery Podcast.
I wanted to be real clear aboutwhat this podcast is intended
for.
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes, but
(00:45):
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
please seek that out.
If you're in dire need of help,you can go to your nearest
emergency room, or you can checkinto a rehab center or call a
counselor like me and talk aboutyour problems and work through
them.
But don't rely on a podcast tobe that form of help.
(01:06):
It's not.
It's just a podcast.
It's for entertainment andinformation only.
So let's keep it in that light,alright?
Have a good time, learnsomething, and then get the real
help that you need from aprofessional.
(01:30):
So today on the podcast, I havea guest.
Her name is Ashley Dillard, andshe's the host of Sit Around the
Fire, which is a podcast that'savailable where, Ashley?
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
All places.
SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
All of them.
Okay.
All of them.
And she works, um, she she'salso a private practice
counselor, and she works with avariety of people, but I think
her main focus is on firstresponders.
So that'd be what firefighters,medics, police officers, people
who see trauma really up close.
They're the first ones.
(02:07):
Um, so what we're gonna talkabout is what happens when
rescuers need to be rescued, um,and the impact of that exposure
to trauma and then the directtrauma itself, and kind of what
happens to people who are inthose positions.
And you, I guess you could applythis to people that are like
(02:28):
emergency room personnel,doctors, nurses, um, anything
like that, medics in themilitary, people who just really
get hit with that heavy trauma.
So that's what I wanted to talkabout with Ashley today.
So, welcome, Ashley.
SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
Thank you.
I'm so honored and excited to behere.
SPEAKER_03 (02:46):
Yeah, this is this is awesome.
So tell me a little bit about umyour your background.
Like how did you be how did youstart?
You were you were a firefighterand uh EMT or paramedic as well,
or just a firefighter?
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
Uh paramedic too.
SPEAKER_03 (03:01):
Paramedic too, okay.
So you went from that and thennow you're doing counseling and
podcasting.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:08):
So how did that happen?
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Yeah, so it's it has been a really incredible journey
so far.
So um, yeah, I worked on theambulance and then also worked
on the fire and did theparamedic thing on the fire
department as well for justshort of 10 years uh here in
Colorado.
(03:31):
So um it is so funny when youlook back and reflect on it
because when you're in it, whenyou're online and you're in the
thick of it, you don't alwayssee what's going on, and you
don't always recognize a lot ofthese changes that start to
happen within yourself.
SPEAKER_03 (03:49):
Inside of you when you're getting exposed to the
trauma, the stuff you're seeing.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
Exactly.
So, like what becomes normal isnot really, I don't always like
using the word normal, but isnot normal anymore.
But it feels so normal to uswhen we're when we're in it and
we experience it.
So um having gone through, Imean, can't even count how many
(04:16):
dead people you see or stuffthat you see.
Um, but getting to a point whereyou realize like it's not really
affecting you anymore, like itdoesn't feel um you really don't
feel anything.
So you feel that numb kind ofit's just another call, it's
just another day, and or like inour nature of making jokes about
(04:38):
things to to get through or todesensitize.
So uh when I went to FireAcademy, I found that I was
struggling quite a bit withinsome of the confined space
training.
So I would get into those themazes or the situations and
experience what a lot of peoplehave heard of kind of the phobic
(05:02):
wave, where your whole body justliterally shuts down out of
learning now as a protectivemechanism for we're in what is
perceived as a high threat,danger situation.
We're literally shutting thingsoff.
Um, but when you're in the midstof training and trying to do
something, you can't have thathappen.
(05:23):
Um and what I realized in themoment, I had some really wise
mentors and people looking outfor me who advocated that I
needed to go get some extra helpand to really dive into what was
going on.
So I went to some therapies,different modalities of it, but
(05:45):
went to go see somebody whospecifically did uh hypnosis and
work through that modalityspecifically.
But what we came across was myresponse in the mazes, that
stress response that I wasexperiencing wasn't actually
really related to going throughthe rat maze, as I call it.
(06:06):
But it was actually because Ihad a close friend and a crew
member who had committed suicideum about six months before I was
in Fire Academy.
And I the physiological responsethat I was having in the that
maze was exactly what I wasfeeling in that moment when we
got notified of what hadhappened.
(06:29):
And so it is the whole journeyof realizing that these things
add up over time and that whenwe don't process things or we
suppress things and push thingsdown, like there is a a point to
where it's too much.
And so luckily, I was able to doa lot of work with that in the
(06:52):
moment.
And he, my therapist at thetime, was the one who encouraged
me about what do you want to dowhen you can't do this job
anymore?
Or what if you don't want to dothis job anymore?
And the cocky, like brand newfirefighter in me said, What are
you talking about?
Like, I'm gonna do this careerfor 25 years and retire.
SPEAKER_03 (07:12):
I'm gonna last forever.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
Yeah, exactly.
I don't need a backup plan.
Um I got my cape, but exactly,yeah, I'm the hero.
So, but that really resonatedwith me over time when I sat
with it and thought about likeactually, like, what is it that
I would do?
Like, what happens?
Because we know that this careercan be taken away in an instant
(07:34):
if you get hurt or somethinghappens.
Um, and I didn't want to be inthat spot.
So I decided to go back toschool while I was working and
uh finished my undergrad and mymaster's degree in mental health
and clinical counseling.
And as I continued to moveforward with that, it just
(07:54):
became clearer and clearer formy own sake that um I needed to
make some changes.
So I was getting incrediblyburned out on the job.
Um, it is like it felt like Ihad been there for 20 years, but
I had only been there for lessthan 10.
And so the the burnout and thenot wanting to be at work, not
(08:20):
excited to run calls, um, andthen coming home and hearing
some things of like, like, whyare you being so short with me,
or why are you so irritated?
Or why um like just it was justbizarre to see, as well as like,
okay, why am why am I drinkingso much alcohol?
(08:40):
Why am I feeling like I can'tever get good rest?
Or it just all these thingsstarted to click and make sense
of I needed to make a change formyself.
Um, either find a way to do thecareer in a healthy longevity
type state, or I was gonna haveto make a shift.
(09:00):
So I decided to retire,realizing that as you know, that
doing both of these jobs, beingonline and trying to do this was
going to be the worst decisionto me.
SPEAKER_03 (09:13):
Yeah, you can't do that.
No, you can't analyze whatyou're going through well and
then go through it and thenanalyze it again.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
No, no, absolutely not.
So I sat with it, talked with alot of people, and just decided
now was the time.
So I retired.
And what several people I workedwith used to say is like you're
going to become a different kindof helper now.
So it was letting letting go ofbeing a paramedic, being a
(09:43):
firefighter, and realizing likewhere I needed to serve
differently.
And um I had seen too manypeople who had chosen a
different path that led to moresuffering, or they got to the
point where they did end upcommitting suicide because they
(10:03):
just had nothing left.
And I got like really tired ofthat narrative.
So I I started the mission ofending the suffering and showing
up for the people you mentioned,like the first responders, and
how we don't ask for help untilit's really, really bad, if we
do ask for help at that point.
SPEAKER_03 (10:23):
So well, that's the that's what happens in the
process of being exposed totraumatic events is that um
there's the compassion fatiguebecause you're being a first
responder or somebody who iscalled upon to act in those
situations, whatever it is.
So they're you're you're showingcompassion for the person, but
you get to the point wherethere's compassion fatigue, and
(10:44):
like you said, you the burnoutof like you you start shutting
it off.
And that's what people do a lotof times.
This happens in in families ofaddicts too.
Um, like if children are growingup in an addict home, they're
they're exposed to constanttraumatic events going on and
they learn to just shut down.
Um, one of the things I noticedwhen I uh was was doing that
(11:07):
kind of work, but then doing uhwork as a as a counselor, I
noticed that the people whotended to be first responders or
emergency room doctors or nursesor uh PAs, people that that are
in the front lines, they tendedto come from chaotic, traumatic
homes because they were veryskilled at shutting it off.
(11:29):
So they could they could operatelike a robot.
Uh, you know, oh, somebody'slost their leg, tourniquet, no
problem, blood everywhere.
They just they have no responseat all emotionally.
And then when it's over with,they go home, they're curled up
on the floor in a fetal positionbecause that's when the emotion
then starts hitting them.
But the compassion fatigue hits,and then that's when you realize
(11:51):
that uh there's like I justdon't have it in me anymore, and
then you get emotional collapse,and that's that's exactly what
you're describing.
You get driven to the pointwhere you just can't do it
anymore.
Um, but the the first part ofwhat you said was really
interesting.
You said that you yourselfdidn't you you didn't notice
that there was a changehappening um in you, uh, but
(12:15):
it's you're getting the feedbackfrom other people, so that
invisible burnout is what'swhat's going on, you know,
because you're trying to adaptaround it.
And it's not I I don't want to Idon't want to paint everybody
who's a first responder with ahuge broad brush because some
people can handle more of thatand they're fine until they get
(12:39):
to a certain point, other peoplecan handle very little of it,
some people just seem to be ableto just do it forever.
Like they don't actually getburned out, they're just like
that.
And that's uh, you know, they sonot everybody's the same, but I
think pretty much if you go intoit with the idea that you're
(13:02):
helping others, that by by itsdescription is compassion,
right?
And so it's easy to get to thatcompassion fatigue and then you
start compensating.
Um, what I say all the time toum people in my practice and on
these podcasts um that you uhyou know, isolation is
(13:26):
addiction's best friend, andwhen you're going home and you
have to isolate because youcan't tell people all the
horribleness that you're gettingexposed to, you're just gonna
isolate, and then that's wheresomething happens, so you're
uncomfortable, and that's we usebecause we're uncomfortable, and
so the discomfort starts risingand rising.
(13:47):
That's a problem.
Um, so people who have careersthat are working where there's a
lot of adrenaline going on,there's an adrenaline dump.
Um, you can get addicted tothat.
I don't know about you, but Inoticed when I stopped doing the
the the work that had a lot ofadrenaline attached to it, I
(14:09):
started ramping up theactivities that had adrenaline
attached to it.
Motorcycles, uh fighting,competitive fighting, uh
skateboarding.
I mean, it was just likewhatever I could get an
adrenaline dump from.
Did you have that same thing?
Did you get that going on?
SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
Oh, absolutely.
I it's funny that you bring itup because I noticed that
actually when I would get on aroller coaster.
So when I was in the thick ofworking and in that time span, I
would go jump on a rollercoaster and I wouldn't feel
anything.
It was like, I can't like youremember what roller coasters
used to be like and that likedrop in your stomach, and this
(14:49):
is so exciting, and it was justlike very bland.
And I thought, holy cow, likewhat has happened to me?
Like, I and I see this all thetime too with I mean co-workers
from the past, but also peoplewithin my practice is like the
threshold starts getting higherand higher.
So now we're looking for morethings to make that adrenaline
(15:14):
dump happen.
So now it's not just driving mymotorcycle at 100 miles per
hour.
Now it's like maybe having acouple of drinks and then
driving 100 miles per hour, orthe you know, gambling gets out
of control, or you know, alcoholis not working anymore.
Now I need to try something alittle bit different.
And it's the the behaviors andthe patterns just build upon
(15:37):
themselves because the thresholdgets so high, and you just
realize like, whew, like uh it'sway out of check.
And I I think so much of thathappens from the neuroplasticity
and the neurotransmitter side aswell, too, is those those it
literally your brain getsrewired to a new kind of
(15:59):
stimulus, absolutely does, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:01):
And then the craving for the adrenaline, but you also
end up with the dopamine hitbecause like this chaos feels
normal, feels good, and thenwhen you're not in chaos, you're
not getting the dopamine hit.
So then you're gonna like yousaid, like you're gonna you're
gonna up the ante with whateverit is that's the the get you the
adrenaline dump.
(16:22):
The the the the non-firstresponder um people who have
addiction issues, they'reconstantly chasing chaos.
And uh first responders chasethat action, right?
Addicts will chase the chaos.
And I would imagine if you're afirst responder, you're gonna be
you know, it's you chase themboth.
(16:44):
Um you know what, you know, Idon't know if you have much
experience with residentialtreatment programs, but when
somebody comes into aresidential treatment program
and they're gonna stay there 30days, 60, 90 days, they walk in.
One of the things that happensin the first like three, four
days is that person will come inand start creating chaos.
(17:05):
You know, there's like 20 peoplealready in the program.
This guy comes in and he startspicking on people and he's
creating drama and fight, andeverybody knows, like, oh, he he
just got here.
He he'll calm down.
It'll take up three or four daysbecause there's not enough
chaos.
It's peaceful, it's quiet,everybody's gonna chill.
Because they've been there forthree weeks, you know, and here
(17:26):
comes Johnny lately, and he'sgonna create chaos.
He needs that, he needs thatadrenaline.
Um but in the first responderworld, yeah, it's it's just it's
like firefighters.
You're you're at you're in thefirehouse, and then the bell
rings and you don't know what inthe world you're gonna re-run
into.
But it's bad, most likely,because that's why somebody
(17:47):
called, right?
Um so in the usage world, youget you know, you have a
abstaining and then you getsobriety, but you have to have
that emotional sobriety as well.
And and that kind of happens atthe same time.
Um so all right.
(18:07):
So that's w in in the world, inyour world, we'll just call it
your world, um everybody withthe masks and the capes and
they're flying around andthey're saving people.
Um you you mentioned that likefirst responder types and uh
people in the in the front linesof stuff, they won't ask for
(18:28):
help.
Is that is that a pride thing,or is that a professional that's
a weakness thing, or why why dothey resist asking for help?
SPEAKER_00 (18:38):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
I've come to reflect on andrealize that it's like actually
a couple of different things.
I think there is a huge elementto the pride side, like there's
still that admitting andaccepting that I'm not okay or
that there is something goingalong going on with you and that
(19:02):
you're not functioning well,there's a lot of break breaking
that apart and accepting itwithout or it just brings a lot
of shame and guilt, really.
If you when you admit toyourself and you start hearing
the things that you actuallybelieve of if there's something
wrong with me or I'm broken, orlike whatever the narrative is
(19:23):
that's playing in your head,once you you have to be willing
to accept that and not bring theshame and guilt along with it.
And that requires a lot.
That requires a lot for peopleto do to get to that point too.
SPEAKER_03 (19:37):
So you're talking, you're talking about the
emotional side, right?
You're talking about like I'memotionally, I'm I'm in the
point of compassion, uh fatigueand and emotional collapse.
So that pride and that you know,I it's a weakness thing.
Is that because the the thefirst responder world
predominantly started out as theboys' club?
And so there's that branding toit.
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
I think so.
And if you think back, even likeyou know, grandparents,
great-grandparents coming homefrom war, World War II, you
know, Vietnam War, like it's thesame narrative that's playing
over, is like you don't havetime to talk about your problems
or what's going on.
You need to like show up, doyour work, provide for your
(20:22):
family.
Like there's no space for theemotional side of it.
And it's just a huge, it's Imean, it's getting better.
The stigma for sure around thatis getting better because
there's such a push now withlike not just settling for
suffering, but it's still thesame.
A lot of it's the same.
Like, you should I mean, Iremember even being told going
(20:45):
through you know, differenttrainings and stuff is like if
you can't handle this, you'renot gonna be able to make it and
do this job.
And so, like how twisted thatnarrative is on a human level of
like, oh, you can't handleseeing somebody like completely
uh decapitated on the side ofthe road, or you can't see see
(21:06):
the worst of the worst.
Like, if you can't handle that,you're not gonna be able to do
the job.
But thinking of how our brainsare wired and our bodies
function is like we're notreally meant to see that
anyways.
And so that whole idea of if Iif I say something, or if I go
to get the help, there'ssomething wrong with me, or I'm
(21:28):
weak, or I am not gonna be ableto do the job, or my crew is
gonna see me as weak and not beable to do what I need to do is
a huge hindrance, I think, forpeople just suffering and not
getting the help that they needto.
SPEAKER_03 (21:45):
Yeah, it's just like it's like you're expected to be
a sociopath to be able tofunction, uh, because you just
don't care about other people'sfeelings, and oh, that person's
leg is missing, or oh look,they're eviscerated, and you
know, or they burned to death,and you know, is there are we
going for lunch after this, oryou know, it's like you can't
that's it?
Yeah, it's really that's normal,yeah.
(22:06):
Yeah, so uh and I I you know wein in when people get exposed to
trauma um through their throughtheir lives, whether they're a
first responder or maybe theirtheir families are just a big
hot mess, and there's suicideand you know, cancer and all
this stuff that that affectsthem negatively and makes them
(22:27):
uncomfortable.
And then that's why they starttaking on chemicals to to cope
with that as their primarycoping mechanism.
But the families of addicts,they're getting exposed to the
trauma of watching their addictfamily member just disintegrate,
and it destroys families.
Um, but those families have tobuild those emotional firewalls,
(22:48):
and if you can do it in apositive way, that's great, but
a lot of times it's in anegative way too.
Um, but you get the samesilence, you know, either way.
Um so vulnerability in theadmission of this equals
weakness.
Um, so what what starts to breakthe silence?
(23:11):
Is it uh peer support?
Is it is it therapy?
Is it hitting bottom?
I mean, what what is the thingthat starts to break that
silence?
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
I think it's a little bit of all the things.
Um I think for me it was sittingwith like, am I gonna be if I
continue on the path that I'mon, will I be okay like
destroying my home life?
Will I be okay destroying myrelationship?
Uh will I honestly like will Ibe okay destroying my body
(23:43):
because my the physical symptomsof things showing up again, what
we see is like kind of normal,like it isn't physiologically
normal.
Am I willing to sacrifice allthose things to stay in silence,
basically, or to keepsuppressing things and to choose
not to look at things and dothings in a healthy way?
(24:06):
Because there is a healthy wayyou can do the career or you can
support, you know, somebodywho's going through a struggle
with addiction.
You can do it, you just have tohave the right tools and
resources.
So I think it's really aninternal inquisition of asking
yourself, like, am I sick enoughof my suffering?
Like, am I and and the cost ofwhat that's gonna be on the
(24:29):
other side?
Is it worth it?
Because you know just as well,like if the career is gone, like
the the wheel moves on.
So, like as soon as you leave,they're gonna put someone else
in your seat.
Or like that continues, likethey have to have people doing
the job.
But like, if you walk away fromthe job, have you destroyed
everything else in your life,your family?
(24:52):
You like all the things inrealizing this whole mentality
around self-sacrifice isn'tnecessary, like it's it's a
badge of honor we wear that'snot really the right badge to be
putting on.
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:07):
There's a um you know, in the 12 steps, I don't
know how familiar you are withthem, but that's you're
describing step one, like mylife's become unmanageable.
And but but when you're in aposition where managing your
life is a rec is a requirementof your job, which for a lot of
(25:27):
people is their sole identity,that's a tough call to make to
know how to reach out for helpor when to reach out for help.
You know, I uh it's interesting.
I've had firefighters in here,I've never had a police officer.
I've never had a police officer.
I'm around police officers alot.
I've never had a police officer.
(25:47):
And I'm like, won't go totherapy, huh?
You guys are just like themilitary guys, you don't like
talking.
Okay, I get it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:56):
Um but you gotta you gotta find some way to some some
place to go.
Um and you know, the the theblue wall is one that is
virtually impossible to cross,um, which is probably why I
don't have police officers inhere.
They should come, but they won'tcome.
(26:17):
Um, it's probably the ultimatein weakness.
And and can you imagine you'resitting in a in an AA meeting
and there's Officer Donaldsonright there?
Like, didn't he pull me over forspeeding the other day?
He's not gonna go to an AAmeeting.
So I, you know, that wouldthat's not that's cut off.
Same thing happens with doctors,medical doctors.
(26:37):
They're not gonna come becausethey don't want to run into a
patient, you know.
That's I and they tell me that.
Like, I can't I can't go tomeetings.
I can't I get it, I get it.
But the real the realizationthat I can't do this anymore,
like I gotta change.
Um so um to get out of thatfire, to get out of the the the
(27:00):
fire is like what do you do toget out of the fire?
And you know, it may cost yousomething, but you know what?
Listen, recovery, there's alwaysa consequence, you know.
There's it's the very nature ofrecovery is I'm about to lose
the thing I didn't want to lose,or I've already lost it.
That's the point where peopleget into recovery,
(27:20):
unfortunately.
Um some people are willing tolose a lot before they get
there, but um so um when thatmoment finally comes, do you
think to in today's world it'sit's easier to get access to
help than it used to be 20 yearsago, 30 years ago?
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
Yes and no.
I think that there are a lotmore ample resources out, and
there's a lot of avenues, evenjust the podcasting side of
things for people to at leaststart to hear something
different, a different narrativearound getting help, is is a
start.
And I think I really trulybelieve like all you need is a
(28:07):
willingness, like that's all youneed, and like you can make
massive shifts and changes, butyou just have to be willing to
show up, really.
Um but what I really like, and Ithink the movement is heading
that way, is the the old methodof tradition, what we call
traditional therapy, ischanging, and like there's so
(28:30):
many new progressive uh ways ofdoing the work, like that is
opening up the door to some ofthese folks that still have that
strong resistance towardstherapy.
Or I hear it all the time, likepeople are like, Yeah, I went to
therapy when my parents gotdivorced and I hated it.
SPEAKER_03 (28:48):
Yeah, when I was 15.
SPEAKER_00 (28:51):
Why you never went back to therapy again.
SPEAKER_03 (28:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:54):
Um, but realizing that it's not all necessarily
like what you think it is, andrealizing that there's so much
more to it than using it justwhen you're in the pits, is it
can be used for incrediblepersonal growth and
transformation.
And so I really love themovement that's happening where
(29:14):
there's just so many differentmodalities for people to tap
into.
And I always try to compare itto people of if we're fixing a
picture uh element on your car,your engine is not functioning,
is knowing that we can't justcome in with a wrench and expect
to fix the problem.
It's like we have to use amultitude of tools and be
(29:36):
willing and open to exploringdifferent things that as we're
working on.
So just like individual therapyand work is important, same with
group work, like you talk about,or maybe it's doing you know,
equine therapy or uh hot andcold therapy, like there's so
many different things, but youhave to come at it all at all
(29:57):
different ways, and I thinkthat's what's really Going to
make the big shift for people isthe traditional methods aren't
the only way of doing the work.
SPEAKER_03 (30:07):
Yep.
Laying on the couch, listeningto the Freudian therapist uh,
you know, ask you a question andlet you talk for an hour.
Um yeah, there's other things,EMDR, hypnotherapy, uh trauma,
yoga therapy.
I mean, there just you name it,man.
That that Bessel Vanderkohlk'sbook, uh, The Body Keeps the
Score, is an awesome resourcefor an understanding of like all
(30:30):
the different things that youcan do and the effect of those
things.
Um how many how many uh of yourclients that you see are first
responders in your in yourpractice?
What would you say?
Like what percent?
SPEAKER_00 (30:45):
I'd say probably like 95% are first responders
military or spouses of a firstresponder or military member.
SPEAKER_03 (30:54):
So it's do they come to you because you get it?
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
I think that's a huge piece of it, is like
knowing for one, I don't presentmyself as a traditional
counselor.
So I tell people that right offthe bat is I don't work in
traditional methods and I don'treally like traditional
counseling.
So, but the being able to relateto I know what it feels like, I
(31:21):
know what I can relate to howthat feels to you, I know the
culture, like at least on somelevel.
I've never been a cop,obviously, but like I can
understand it's a very similartype experience.
Um but also I think like thebiggest way people come to me is
because someone else comes andthen they tell their friend.
(31:44):
So they start to see a shift insomebody they work with and then
get curious and ask, like, hey,what are you different?
Or or the person who's done thework on themselves starts to
recognize, hey, I see yoursuffering, like how can I show
up for you?
And so it's just become a verycool network and a community
(32:05):
where that's always been mydream and passion is that people
heal and then they go out andhelp other people heal.
So it becomes a movement, moreor less, um, in that way.
SPEAKER_03 (32:16):
So, all right, so let me ask you a couple of
questions then um around that.
So, how how do let's that's thefirst responders, but let me ask
you a question about thefamilies of first responders,
the people that are watchingthis person, as you said in your
words, transforming and changingand not realizing that they're
changing, right?
And then you start gettingpeppered with those questions
(32:38):
like, what's wrong?
Are you okay?
And I'm fine, I'm fine.
Well, you don't seem fine, andyou're like doing all kinds of
weird uh faulty coping mechanismtechniques to deal with your own
stuff.
But the family members, so howdo families of first responders
stay healthy?
What should they do or what canthey do when they're watching
this person who's changingbecause of their job?
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
I'm so glad that you brought this up because this has
been like such a big passion ofmine moving forward, because the
what I see a lot in terms ofespecially particularly spouses,
is they feel this almost asecondary need to the
self-sacrifice.
Then the I think this isrelative to for people going
(33:23):
through addiction as well, isyou feel like your problems or
what you're going through isminimalized, or you have to
minimize it because the focusneeds to be on the other person,
they need to get into theirsessions, they need to go do
this therapy, but you don'trealize, like you mentioned,
that secondary shock wave orthat secondary trauma that they
(33:45):
feel as well is you both people,whether it's two spouses or
partners or even the family, islike everybody needs to be doing
the work at the same time.
Like everybody needs to puttheir focus and be willing to
say, like, I'm worthy of goingto get support that I need to,
(34:08):
because going, I mean, just ifyou broke it down even on the
fireside, is like out here, mostof us work uh 48, 96 schedules,
so we're on shift for two daysoff or four.
It's like, what does it feellike for the person at home to
be a single parent for 48 hours?
And you can't tell me that thatdoesn't like cause some kind of
(34:30):
stress within your life, orthat's really hard, or being
gone on holidays, or if you'reyou know, someone who's helping
someone through an addiction,like the a mental and the
emotional requirement for that,like you can't tell me that
doesn't cause stress within you.
Yeah, because you have to beable to say, like, I value
(34:55):
myself, I'm important enough, Iam gonna advocate for myself to
go get support as well.
And the healing really needs tohappen.
I really think like side byside, not I'm not saying
necessarily like couples therapyfor everybody, no, but each
person in the involved in theuniverse that they're in.
SPEAKER_03 (35:14):
But in in the recovery community, um, we have
a lot of sayings, and one ofthem is individuals don't get
sober, groups do.
And you could translate that tofamilies do.
So I'm always demanding that thethe husband, wife, brother,
sister, mother, father of theperson that's being affected by
(35:34):
this coping mechanism of theaddiction, that they've got to
be recovering from thataddiction, as well as the addict
has to be recovering from theaddiction.
So they have to go to group.
It's you know what's reallyfunny is there's so much
resistance to that.
I this happens all the time.
Like, but it's not my problem.
They're the ones that had theissue, and it's like, yes, but
(35:55):
you're you know, you're runningaround trying to fix their
problem.
You didn't start out yourrelationship like that.
Do you realize you're in thatposition?
And they can't see it becausethey're just so blinded by this
other person who they love, isin this crazy situation, and
that's their focus, they justforget about themselves, and um,
so it's yeah, that's a good andand with first responders, same
(36:19):
thing, except you're seeing thedestruction going on um from
that distance.
So um, yeah, you can't you can'theal yourself, and if you're not
if you just like doctors,doctors can't be performing
surgery on their own childbecause your objectivity is
(36:40):
gone, and so you can't you can'tdo that as a family member, you
can't heal yourself, and ifyou're not trained, you can't
heal the other person, and evenif you were trained, you can't
heal the other person becausethey're related to you, and
yeah, like I can't see my wifeas a client.
I don't understand why a familymember thinks that they can be
the social worker and the thecase manager for their loved one
(37:02):
who's has a problem, it's it'sinsane.
Um, yeah, but those are theroles we fall into.
SPEAKER_00 (37:08):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I have a funny story onthat one.
So I had a somebody coming infor a series of treatment, and
his wife dropped him off.
And when she dropped him off andcame in, I kind of had this
feeling of like, uh oh, like Ineed to prepare for what's about
to come.
But she uh lit both of us up.
(37:29):
Like, I don't understand why heneeds to be here.
I don't understand how like it'sthat bad.
Like it just was like, whoa, andwow, full denial.
It was a full on.
And I was like, I just let herlike have her space for a
second, and I said, like, Iwould really love it if you you
(37:50):
would find an avenue for you togo get some support through this
as well, too, because we justdon't we're so focused on the
other person, we don't often seelike what's going on, and
everybody's a mirror,everybody's a teacher.
I say that all the time inrelationship work is like your
partner is gonna triggersomething in you that is showing
(38:11):
you a growth point, and sowhatever that is, pay attention
to it in you, but like you'vegot to go do the work too,
because as this person'stransforming and changing, like
you've got to figure out how totransform and change and do the
work at the same time so thatyou guys can get to know who
each other are in this newseason of life, who this person
(38:34):
is now in the here and now, notwho they were, you know, in the
thick of dealing with work as afirst responder or in the thick
of their addiction, or all ofthat is like you really have to
like be willing to invest in theprocess alongside whoever you're
supporting, and it's just itjust it should be a
(38:57):
non-negotiable, really.
SPEAKER_03 (38:58):
It it yeah, exactly.
Um it's it's loving the personunconditionally, but not
performing a rescue yourself.
So love without the rescue.
And if you understand thatyou're in a chaotic situation,
it's not just them that's livingin the chaotic situation, it's
both of you if it's if it's ayou know a partner thing.
(39:19):
Um wow.
So I you know, you good for youthat you made the career change,
but I'm gonna give you acautionary tale here because you
jumped from one type of rescueto another type of rescue.
So you have to pay attentionyourself um to what's going on
and find your you know, you'rerecovering your outlets and
everything, and you're noddingyour head, so you agree.
(39:41):
So just keep an eye on that, allright, Ashley.
SPEAKER_00 (39:44):
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:46):
But I love what you're doing, I think it's
awesome.
Uh, I think uh anybody who youknow, like we I I was asking you
before the podcast about is yourstate part of the interstate
compact.
Um and that's for those of youwho are listening, don't know,
in the United States, uh youcan't you can't practice across
(40:09):
state lines.
So like and and wherever the theuh therapy is happening is where
the person who is receiving itlives, not the therapist.
Um so you if you if you wantsome coaching from Ashley, you
can get coaching.
SPEAKER_02 (40:27):
Yeah, not therapy.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (40:30):
But you know, for people who um make the jump from
one career and then they go andand and therapy in particular to
help others in that formercareer that you had, that's
awesome because it gives youthat perspective.
So I wish you all the luck inthe world um in and continuing
to help people.
But man, if you are a firstresponder out there and you're
(40:51):
looking for help, let me askyou, Ashley, if if somebody was
listening to this and they are afirst responder and they're and
they're having these struggleswith dealing with their trauma,
what would you tell them to do?
Like, where do they go?
Where do they start?
SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
Yeah, I would say time is of the essence.
So like don't don't wait.
I said there's an urgency todoing the work.
Um and I would say you couldstart.
There's so many different placesyou could start.
If your department has a peersupport team, that's a good
place to start.
(41:30):
Um however, you can always justgo again back to the podcast
thing is start looking andlistening to other people who
are out there doing the work.
Um, there's so many differentavenues now that you can check
out.
There's tons of grants andfunding out there too that's
helping kind of facilitate someof the work that way.
(41:53):
I'm always happy.
You can always reach out to meand I can help connect you with
somebody if you're looking forsomething specific.
But just start asking like forone.
And you don't have to askthrough work.
If if that's a concern, you cango outside of work.
SPEAKER_03 (42:10):
You know what I tell my listeners?
Listen, the COVID virus shutdownfor me had one positive, and
that is it taught people thatthey can use the internet and it
forced, particularly in therecovery community, A A N A, M
A, all the A's to go online, andthey still are out there.
(42:31):
So if you are afraid of likegetting caught, I tell people
then be be a uh be a meetingtourist, go to a meeting in
England, go to a meeting in NewZealand or Australia, or or I
tell them to stay away fromScotland because the accent is
like impossible to understand.
I've tried that a couple oftimes, and it's like half the
(42:51):
people in it you can'tunderstand.
But go to another state, likejust go to an online meeting.
And um you you can you can dothat and still get something
from it.
I like the in-person part.
You can do the same thing withtherapy, you know.
Nobody has to know that you'redoing it, you could just do it
from the privacy of your home ona phone, you know.
(43:13):
Um the the one thing you do thatthat I caution people is that
you understand that you're gonnaprobably go through two, three,
four, five, six therapistsbefore you find one that you
actually connect with, andthat's fine.
It's not I'm not disparaging mycolleagues, um, but it's you got
to have a connection, right?
SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
So find one that works for you.
SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
So go do the online thing and and find somebody.
So you can be a uh an AA, youknow, the the 12-step tourist
and and go around and find one.
You can find therapists thatway.
Um, there's really not an excusefor not doing it, other than
pride and humility, right?
(43:58):
But healing, healing is notabout being invincible, it's
about being honest.
And you know, I I need I needhelp.
I don't want it, but I need it.
So be honest, and that will getyou the healing.
Um but the other thing is, youknow, as a first responder, and
(44:22):
this this was my the number onelifeguard rule that I used to
teach when I was teaching peopleto be a lifeguard, is don't
become a victim while you'retrying to do a rescue.
Because now now they're gonnanow the next person that comes
along who's a rescuer, he'sgonna have to rescue two people.
And he's not rescuing you firstbecause you're the idiot who
jumped in when you shouldn'thave, he's gonna go for the
original victim.
(44:43):
But don't become a victim in theprocess of rescuing somebody,
you know.
If you're not equipped or youyou got some issues, man, get
some help before you start doingit.
Um so yeah, all right, goodadvice.
Yeah, good advice.
Um, you don't have to do acareer change to get to get out
of it, you know.
(45:04):
But hey, no, you know, um, youcan do something to handle it
anyway.
Well, I really like your work.
Um give us give us the plug.
So your podcast is what?
SPEAKER_00 (45:16):
Oh, yes.
So thank you.
My podcast is sit around thefire.
So, like you uh a mixturebetween like having guests come
on and share their stories ortalk about a lot of their
journeys, um, as well aseducation side or just talking
about different modalities orwork that you can do or things
to think about and focus on.
(45:37):
It's really the concept of likeif we were all sitting around
the campfire, what would we betalking about?
And it's a lot of sharingstories, sharing advice, like
words of wisdom, things likethat.
So that is the podcast.
And yes, available on all theplatforms, you can check it out
and listen to it as well.
SPEAKER_03 (45:56):
And how would somebody get a hold of you if
they wanted to reach outdirectly to you?
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
Yes.
So you can go to the websiteright now.
We're getting ready to make abig shift in it, but currently
you can go now towww.sitaroundthefire.org.
Dot org.org.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (46:14):
Not calm org.
SPEAKER_00 (46:16):
I don't actually know what the dot com one takes
you to, so that would be aninteresting.
SPEAKER_03 (46:21):
I I don't think it's you.
SPEAKER_00 (46:23):
No, it's not me.
SPEAKER_03 (46:25):
So sit around the fire.org, and there's a contact
button on there somewhere toreach out to you.
SPEAKER_00 (46:32):
Yes, yeah, yeah, there's a contact, and then you
can uh we're on the socials aswell.
It's Instagram, sit around thefire.co, and we're on Facebook,
and you there's links to allthat through the website or the
podcast, so you can get to itmany different places.
SPEAKER_03 (46:51):
I've I heard quite a few of your podcasts, they're
good, they're entertaining.
I like listening to them.
It was kind of cool.
SPEAKER_00 (46:56):
Um, yeah, they're fun.
SPEAKER_03 (46:58):
Yeah.
So all right.
Well, you know what, Ashley, Ireally appreciate coming on and
being a guest.
And um maybe we'll have to sitdown by the fire and do this
again, but it's got to be at theocean by the waves because I'm
the lifeguard.
SPEAKER_00 (47:11):
Oh, yeah.
That would be awesome.
Oh, I'd love that.
Yeah, well, thank you so much.
Yeah, and uh yeah, reallyimpactful work that you're doing
as well, too.
So it's cool to be able tocelebrate and support each
other.
SPEAKER_03 (47:24):
So yeah, cool.
All right.
Well, thanks again.
SPEAKER_00 (47:27):
You're welcome.
SPEAKER_03 (47:29):
Well, I hope you enjoyed that podcast.
I want to thank Ashley Dillerfor coming on.
And uh hey, if you're in need ofhelp, reach out to Doc Jock,
your addiction lifeguard.
I can be reached at my website,Wellspringmindbody.com.
If you like the show, pleasesubscribe and like it.
Tell your friends because uhalways like what's good.
(47:49):
And if you're getting somethingfrom it, please listen.
But if you need further help,you know, go on.
Go to the rehab, get some help,help some accounts for it, go to
the media, get some help.
I mean, it's crazy to kind ofmake you addicted by any life.
That's insane.
Don't do that, go get the help.
It's out there for you, nomatter where you are.
(48:10):
But until the next time, whenyou're tuning in to another one
of my podcasts, this is DocJock, your addiction lifeguard
saying see ya.
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