October 11, 2024 • 26 mins
The question of how long does it take before I can consider myself to be clean or sober gets answered.
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
It's time again for Doc Jock, your addiction
lifeguard podcast.
I am Dr.
Jock DeBerker, a psychologist,licensed professional counselor,
and addiction specialist.
If you are suffering fromaddiction, misery, trauma,
whatever it is, I'm here tohelp.
If you're in search of help totry to get your life back
together, join me here at DocJock, your addiction lifeguard,
(00:22):
the addiction recovery podcast.
I wanted to be real clear aboutwhat this podcast is intended
for.
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes but
(00:45):
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
Please seek that out.
If you're in dire need of help,you can go to your nearest
emergency room or you can checkinto a rehab center or call a
counselor like me and talk aboutyour problems and work through
them.
But don't rely on a podcast tobe that form of help.
(01:06):
It's not.
It's just a podcast.
It's for entertainment andinformation only.
So let's keep it in that light.
All right.
Have a good time.
Learn something and then get thereal help that you need from a
professional.
UNKNOWN (01:19):
So,
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
So you're working on recovery.
You've been working on it for awhile.
And I guess the question youmight have is, so how long is it
going to take for me to getactually clean and sober?
And that's a question that's areally good question, especially
if you're working really hard atit because it seems like it
should be easy to stop or itseems like it could be very
(02:08):
difficult because it takesforever.
And if you're in the position ofit's easy, you're probably
confused.
And if you think it's nevergoing to, you're never going to
get there, it's going to takeforever.
It's because you're delusional.
You will get there.
It's not going to take forever,but it's not going to be a short
(02:28):
amount of time.
And the question of how long isit actually going to take?
It really kind of depends.
I mean, I hate to give you thatas an answer.
It depends.
There are so many variables thatare in included in this you know
I've known people that havetaken years to get there
literally you know five tenyears if they start from the
(02:50):
first time they really tried toattempt recovery and I know
people who have taken a year totwo years there's never really
much going on in somebody's headif they think that it takes less
time than that and Clinically,we consider, and I've talked
about this many times in thesepodcasts, it takes a year and a
(03:10):
half to two years clinicallybefore you can consider yourself
sober or clean.
And that seems like anincredibly long time, especially
for somebody who's been workingon it for that year and a half
to two years.
But then again, it may takelonger than that.
I had a guest on an earlypodcast that I did, Carrie Sue,
(03:31):
and she talked about this.
the years that it took for herto get actually there and the
things that happened to her.
Her first addiction was heroin,and she kicked that by going to
the recovery treatment program,the residential program of
Scientology in Los Angeles,which might seem absurd, and it
was to her, too.
(03:53):
But it worked for the heroin,but she immediately switched to
alcohol.
And I worked with her for yearsto get there.
And she did get thereeventually.
She's been clean and sober nowfor quite a while.
And she's happier than she'sever been, she says.
And I believe her.
And I see it.
But a year and a half to twoyears, yeah.
(04:16):
But what if it takes longer thanthat?
Does that mean that you'vefailed at your recovery?
No, it doesn't mean that at all.
If it takes less time than that,does it mean that you're not
going to be successful?
No, not at all.
I know somebody who I was veryclose to who spent a lot of
years as an alcoholic.
(04:37):
I'm going to say probably 20years, 25 years, maybe longer.
And she got to that end point inher alcoholism.
And she literally, quiteliterally, turned herself over
to God.
And she got baptized and shehasn't had a drink since.
And it's been five years now.
some would say, oh, well, thenshe's probably going to fall
(04:59):
into the category of a drydrunk.
Well, possibly so.
But in talking to her, I wouldhave to say, probably not.
And the things that drove her tothat, I mean, she has an example
of an alcoholic mother.
She has an insane father who isdeceased, but a crazy father.
(05:20):
And She was influenced by a lotof her mom's bad behavior and
the people that her momsurrounded herself with and the
multiple marriages with drugaddicts and drug dealers and
alcoholics and whatever.
So she had a lot of examples ofthat in her life, and that
shaped and changed her viewpointof addiction.
Now, she became an alcoholic,yes, and she had an alcoholic
(05:43):
spouse, but her conversion toChristianity changed.
from where she was, which was tobe the opposite of a Christian,
just complete atheist, reallykind of shaped and changed her
path to recovery.
But that doesn't mean that it'snot real recovery.
(06:04):
It's really kind of where yourheart and where your head is at.
So the question of how long isit going to take?
It takes as long as it takes.
Some people will go out and, aswe say in the rooms, go out and
pick up and experimentrepeatedly sometimes.
Sometimes it's once or twice.
So they're going to goexperiment with, can I be still
(06:28):
using my drug of choice and belike a quote-unquote normal
person?
Well, you know what?
That's going to affect theirlife.
attempt at getting sober andclean because they're going to
be continually bargaining withthemselves and thinking that
they can get there.
And some of us do that.
You know, we just go out andcontinually experiment.
It may go on for years.
(06:50):
There is also the person thathas what I term an accident.
And that's where they go out anddrink once or use their drug of
choice once and for like a day.
Or two days.
And I don't consider that arelapse.
I consider that an accident.
They fell into something.
They usually come in reportingthat they felt really terrible
(07:11):
and they used something.
And then after they use, theyfeel terrible about how they
feel when they use.
And so for me, that accident ispart of the learning curve in
recovery.
Now, I know in the rooms, thoseof you who are in the NAAA
rooms, you would consider that arelapse.
And you've got to start theclock over again and get that
white chip, that 24-hour chip.
(07:33):
Well, true.
Okay, I'll go with that.
But in my practice, I don'tconsider that a relapse.
Now, if it goes on for weeks,yeah, no, we're in relapse
territory.
You need further help.
So that's going to add to thelength of time for your recovery
if you have a relapse.
If you have an accident, it'spart of the recovery process.
(07:59):
I'm not condoning it.
I'm not saying it's okay.
But it doesn't really...
detract from the work that youdid to get to that place where
you feel horrible about how youfeel when you're using.
So I don't really consider thatto add to the problem of
recovery.
It doesn't hinder it.
It doesn't start the clock overagain, at least in my practice.
(08:23):
But you do need to figure outwhat's going on when you're
using.
So the length of time that ittakes you to get into where you
can say I'm clean or I'm soberor both is as long as it takes.
So if you are out there and youare really struggling, perhaps
(08:44):
you've gone through multipleresidential treatments or you've
gone to IOP, multiple timesyou've been in and out of the
rooms a lot or you know whateverand you're struggling to get
there and it seems like it youknow it's been maybe going on
for two or three years manyou're hanging in there right so
you're you're trying it's justit's taking a long time so if
(09:08):
you look at that and you say ohwell I'm a complete failure
because it's been three yearsI've been working on recovery
it's not a failure it's It ispart of your process and
everybody is unique in theirprocess of recovery.
It's just kind of the deal.
(09:28):
If somebody has been drinking,let's say, for 17 years, 20
years, 25 years at the level ofalcoholic, you know, it's going
to take some time to get intorecovery.
I've had multiple cases over theyears of people that come to me,
(09:48):
and they're in their 60s, late60s, early 70s, and they've been
drinking for 40 years, sometimes50 years.
Well, how long is it going totake that person to get sober?
What's motivating you?
to get there.
It's what is around you.
What are you willing toparticipate in to get into your
(10:11):
recovery?
And how much effort or work areyou going to put into that
recovery?
That determines how long ittakes.
But the 50 years or the 40 yearsor the 20 years that you spent
as an actively engaged alcoholicor drug addict, is going to play
into how long that takes.
(10:32):
So let's start with how about bepatient.
Be kind.
Be patient with yourself.
Be, I don't know, caring.
Considerate for what you'retrying to overcome.
there's a lot of resistance.
There's a lot of arrogance.
We have talked about that inmany of the podcasts that I've
done.
And yeah, that's certainly acontributing factor to the
(10:55):
length of time.
It takes how much arrogance youengage in, but that when you
break that, when you, sorry,when you get to that breaking
point and you are like, I can'tdo this anymore.
For me, that's really when Istart the clock.
Now I've, worked with people whohave been working on working.
(11:16):
I'm using air quotes here onrecovery for, you know, on and
off for five, six, seven years.
They're not going to get thereuntil they actually say, I can't
do this anymore.
I don't, I don't know what todo, but I know I can't do this,
this being getting high ordrunk, anymore.
And that really is when itstarts.
(11:38):
You could have gone through allthe, you know, oh, I go to
meetings.
Oh, I got a sponsor, blah, blah,blah.
I'm not really working onanything.
I'm going through the motionsbecause somebody wants me to.
Or I'm fake sober.
I'm in the rooms, but I'm using.
There are people that do that.
And they're not really workingon sobriety.
So I don't count that as timethat they've worked on it.
(11:59):
They're just pretending.
It's fake sobriety.
It's fake clean.
When you actually say, look, Ican't do this anymore.
I'm done.
I surrender.
Start the clock.
Like that's when you start.
So you could have been workingon it in a fake way for years,
but never really gotten to thatpoint.
And then when you get to thatpoint, it's like you're on your
(12:22):
knees.
You're done.
You're not standing up in therooms.
You're on your knees in theroom.
You actually have just given up.
You surrender to that recovery.
And when you get to that point,that's really when you can
consider yourself working on it.
And again, at that point, itcould have been five years, but
the clock started, like I said,for me, when they get to that
(12:42):
point.
So now it's a year.
And a year later, that person isradically different.
And I do treat those people.
I have those people that I'vewalked through recovery who came
in with, I'm done.
And I'm so frustrated.
I've been to so many counselorswho just ignore when I say that
I have addiction.
(13:03):
They don't know what to do withit.
I've been to groups.
I've been to IOP where it's justa bunch of people that are
complaining or I don't even knowwhat the purpose of this is.
They've been to rehabs.
They were kind of sort ofseeking the help, but maybe they
went to the wrong place.
They didn't connect with it.
(13:24):
It wasn't good for them.
It didn't fit their need.
It didn't fit them, theirpersonality, their temperament.
Maybe it was people that weretoo harsh, too overbearing.
There's a methodology that someAA groups will follow that's old
school.
You know, we call it old school.
(13:45):
They're smoking in the rooms.
They're drinking coffee.
It's a bunch of old timers.
And they're just grousing andgrumbling about how, you know,
if you quit going to meetings,you're going to relapse for
sure.
So you've got to keep coming inthe rooms.
You know, there's that oldschool group.
And that's great because thatreally does work for some
people, you know.
That would probably work for me.
Um, if I needed it because Ineed somebody just beating on me
(14:07):
to get me there because I'm ahard head and pretty stubborn
and headstrong and I'm prettysmart.
So I could, you know, I can outFox you in a meeting.
But for somebody who was heavilytraumatized with maybe an
abusive father or mother, theywere getting beaten as a child,
verbally assaulted, thatprobably wouldn't work real
(14:27):
well, right?
Because it's going to bere-traumatizing.
So you've got to find a meeting.
Some person walks in there andthey're traumatized and they
hear that.
They're like, oh, man, I'm outof here, right?
And so then they might think,oh, that's what meetings are.
So I'm not going back.
And maybe they don't go back fora year or two until they come
along and they meet somebodylike me who says, no, man,
(14:47):
you've got to find a differentmeeting.
Go to different meetings.
Go to three or four differentmeetings in different locations
before you give me an opinionabout AA.
So the person who runs intothat, it may take them longer.
because they got scared awayfrom NA or AA.
Maybe they went to a placewhere, and this happens, maybe
(15:08):
they went to a place wherethere's meetings, and there was
a lot of like, There are a lotof games being played and a lot
of head games and things thatwere undermining people.
There's a lot of like 13steppers who were out there
cruising for chicks or guys orhookups and drugs and whatever.
And that's what they ran into ina meeting.
And that's going to certainlychange the amount of time it
(15:30):
takes you to get into recoverybecause you're going to shy away
from the rooms.
And that's a shame when thathappens.
But if that ever happens to you,you have to get out of that and
go to another meetings Trust me,there are a lot of good meetings
out there.
There are a lot of bad ones,too.
But there's also the fit, yourpersonality.
(15:52):
Maybe you're a little more shy.
Maybe you're a little morewithdrawn.
Maybe you're a little moreapprehensive.
Maybe you're scared.
And you need a meeting wherethey're welcoming.
So all these things factor intohow long it takes you.
Maybe you're in a situationwhere you're in a relationship
with somebody who's also anaddict, and now you've got this
(16:14):
huge problem of undermining yourown recovery.
Or maybe they're saying, oh, I'mgoing to participate with you,
and then they get in there andthey start playing head games
with you.
I've had that happen, and it'ssad.
Maybe your addiction is solinked to your relationship that
(16:35):
the only way you're going to getinto recovery is to actually get
away from the person that you'vebeen with for years, perhaps
years.
And it's a sad thing because nowyou've got the ending of a
relationship, and that'sgrieving, and then you've got
your own chaotic life, and maybeyou've lost something.
You know, that got to besideyour relationship.
(16:56):
But you've lost something elsethat forced you into into
recovery.
You lost your job.
You know, if you're a cop,you're on you're on the job.
And they say, hey, look, youcan't be a cop unless you.
going to rehab and you got tostart working on sobriety
because and you're under thewatchful eye of that or you work
for the you know Amtrak or oneof the trains companies shipping
(17:20):
companies and they say you can'tcome back and tell you okay so
you got this going on and nowyou realize in the process I got
to end my relationship becauseit's all based on one thing and
that is getting high or gettingdrunk and when you confront that
loved one with this isn't goingto work you have to get into
recovery with me or it's notgoing to work and they say no
(17:45):
and now you got to end thatrelationship could be you're
married to the person could beliving with them could been just
you've just been with them for along time maybe it's a family
member maybe it's your parentsor your uh your siblings that
you have these closerelationships with but now you
got to end it right you can'treconcile that with your
(18:05):
addiction That will certainlyplay into the length of time
that it takes you to get intorecovery because now you've got
all this emotional turmoil goingon and that's a problem.
So what are the factors?
What are the factors that aregoing to play into you working
on your recovery and what's itgoing to take to get there?
(18:28):
I heard, and I think I said thisin the last podcast, I'm not
sure, but you know Ben Affleck'sthing about you know the only
real cure for addiction issuffering and you know but it
can also end your recovery andso the suffering that you go
through when you end youraddiction or towards the end of
(18:48):
your addiction is when you'velost something right now in the
process of working on yourrecovery you have to end a
relationship it's sad and youneed continued support for that
and Those of you who are inrelationships where the person
that you're with is the addictand you're just kind of
observing them going throughthis, what are you contributing
(19:13):
to their recovery?
That's the perspective that youhave to have.
So just be aware of that.
If you're listening to this andyour loved one is the one that's
got the addiction, Just payattention to that.
I'll tell you, there's anotherthing that contributes to your
recovery, and that is how yousee yourself.
(19:34):
Many people, when they startworking on recovery, they feel
stigmatized and they feelshamed.
You know, because people arelooking at them going, oh, you
know, you got this addiction andit's a problem and you're not
trustworthy or whatever.
But the other part of it is youlook at yourself as being
dysfunctional and not, you know,broken.
(19:58):
And you're and so you selfstigmatize and.
You know, that's a real problemfor you.
That's a real problem inrecovery.
Because if you don't think ofyourself in a compassionate way,
then it's going to make it sothat it's very difficult for you
to actually get into recovery.
So when you're working onrecovery, you have to shift your
(20:19):
thinking.
You have to shift your thinkingfrom, I'm bad, I'm not worthy,
this is a problem for me becauseI failed.
Self-stigmatization.
Self-stigmatizing thinking,that's what I'm trying to say,
is very undermining to yourrecovery.
(20:41):
If you were not worthy ofconsideration, nobody would
bother with you.
And there are people out there,it's interesting, that's the
power of AA and NA, is theworking with sponsors.
Everybody that's in an addictivetrap, in the cycle of addiction,
(21:03):
has taken hold.
It's not because they're badpeople.
It's because their brain istelling them, I am
uncomfortable.
Please do something.
So using your drug of choice isthe thing you do.
That doesn't make you a badperson.
And I'm not saying that therearen't bad people who have
addiction.
Of course there are.
(21:23):
Jails are full of them.
Prisons are full of them.
People who are psychotic orthey're sociopathic and they
just harm people.
There are some bad people outthere, okay?
Don't get me wrong.
But just because you're anaddict doesn't make you a bad
person.
It makes you have a conditionthat is attacking you.
And so you have to work on thatcondition.
(21:44):
So if we can, as a group ofpeople, addicts, if we can start
to view ourselves as notbeing...
dysfunctional and problematic,we would get further in our
recovery than if weself-stigmatize and believe that
we're not worthy ofconsideration or care.
(22:07):
It's interesting when I ask anaddict, hey man, what about the
people in the rooms?
They always talk about thepeople in the rooms with such
compassion and such care about,man, that person was really,
they're in a really bad place.
They need help, and they'rehurting.
(22:32):
Or, wow, I heard that person'sstory in IOP, and wow, man, they
really overcame a lot.
Their family, at least I'm notlike them.
Because that's really bad.
And they suffered.
And then that same person, whenthey describe their own story,
they think of it as like, Ifailed, I'm a failure, I'm a bad
(22:54):
person, I did these horriblethings.
they don't show the same levelof compassion to themselves as
they feel for other people inthe rooms.
And I always find that quiteinteresting because when I tell
them that and I give them theexamples, like you just told,
tell me the worst story youheard in your recovery attempt,
like whether it was in rehab orwhatever, tell me the worst
(23:14):
story that you heard.
And they tell me the story.
And I said, what, when you hearthat story, what does that make
you think about that person?
And they're like, oh man, thatwas just so, It just breaks my
heart to hear that story.
They were molested over and overagain by their dad, or they were
beaten by their mom.
It's just like, wow, it justbreaks my heart when I hear
that.
And I'm like, okay, now tell meyour worst story.
(23:38):
Tell me the worst thing thathappened to you.
And they tell me and I repeatwhat I do is I repeat exactly
what they said to me about theother person.
I'm like, wow, that just breaksmy heart that you're telling me
that story.
It's so sad.
I can't imagine how horriblethat must have been for you.
Same words they use to describethe person that they heard that
(23:58):
person's bad story.
I repeat it back to them and Ican see them like feel it.
It's so interesting.
And I'm like, you know, you saidthe same thing about the person
who told you their bad story,your story is bad too.
And it deserves the same levelof empathy and consideration.
(24:21):
You know that, right?
And it's like a light bulb goesoff.
They're like, I never reallythought of it that way.
And I'm like, yeah, becauseyou're the person telling the
story.
So you've dissociated from it.
You've disconnected from it.
You think it is because you're abad person.
It's not because you're a badperson.
but your addiction is what'skilling you.
(24:43):
And so the length of time ittakes for that person to get
from understanding that theyjust can't do this anymore, to
the point where they can startto be empathetic about their own
story, about a year, year and ahalf.
And the shame is now starting todisappear and all the other
(25:06):
negative things.
But it's about a year and a yearand a half before they get
there.
So how long is it going to take?
It's going to take about thatlong.
Well, how long is that?
About that long.
And that's the answer.
So keep working on it.
Keep believing that you can getthere because you can.
(25:28):
Never give up.
Never, ever give up.
Keep trying and you'lleventually get there.
That's this edition of DocShock, your addiction lifeguard.
(26:08):
But, you know, just do whateveryou have to to get into
recovery.
It's not worth ending your lifeto save your addiction.
That's insanity.
So start working on it, willyou?
Please.
And until next time, this is DocJacques saying, see ya.
It's time again for Doc Jock, your addiction
lifeguard podcast.
I am Dr.
Jock DeBerker, a psychologist,licensed professional counselor,
and addiction specialist.
If you are suffering fromaddiction, misery, trauma,
whatever it is, I'm here tohelp.
If you're in search of help totry to get your life back
together, join me here at DocJock, your addiction lifeguard,
(00:22):
the addiction recovery podcast.
I wanted to be real clear aboutwhat this podcast is intended
for.
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes but
(00:45):
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
Please seek that out.
If you're in dire need of help,you can go to your nearest
emergency room or you can checkinto a rehab center or call a
counselor like me and talk aboutyour problems and work through
them.
But don't rely on a podcast tobe that form of help.
(01:06):
It's not.
It's just a podcast.
It's for entertainment andinformation only.
So let's keep it in that light.
All right.
Have a good time.
Learn something and then get thereal help that you need from a
professional.
UNKNOWN (01:19):
So,
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
So you're working on recovery.
You've been working on it for awhile.
And I guess the question youmight have is, so how long is it
going to take for me to getactually clean and sober?
And that's a question that's areally good question, especially
if you're working really hard atit because it seems like it
should be easy to stop or itseems like it could be very
(02:08):
difficult because it takesforever.
And if you're in the position ofit's easy, you're probably
confused.
And if you think it's nevergoing to, you're never going to
get there, it's going to takeforever.
It's because you're delusional.
You will get there.
It's not going to take forever,but it's not going to be a short
(02:28):
amount of time.
And the question of how long isit actually going to take?
It really kind of depends.
I mean, I hate to give you thatas an answer.
It depends.
There are so many variables thatare in included in this you know
I've known people that havetaken years to get there
literally you know five tenyears if they start from the
(02:50):
first time they really tried toattempt recovery and I know
people who have taken a year totwo years there's never really
much going on in somebody's headif they think that it takes less
time than that and Clinically,we consider, and I've talked
about this many times in thesepodcasts, it takes a year and a
(03:10):
half to two years clinicallybefore you can consider yourself
sober or clean.
And that seems like anincredibly long time, especially
for somebody who's been workingon it for that year and a half
to two years.
But then again, it may takelonger than that.
I had a guest on an earlypodcast that I did, Carrie Sue,
(03:31):
and she talked about this.
the years that it took for herto get actually there and the
things that happened to her.
Her first addiction was heroin,and she kicked that by going to
the recovery treatment program,the residential program of
Scientology in Los Angeles,which might seem absurd, and it
was to her, too.
(03:53):
But it worked for the heroin,but she immediately switched to
alcohol.
And I worked with her for yearsto get there.
And she did get thereeventually.
She's been clean and sober nowfor quite a while.
And she's happier than she'sever been, she says.
And I believe her.
And I see it.
But a year and a half to twoyears, yeah.
(04:16):
But what if it takes longer thanthat?
Does that mean that you'vefailed at your recovery?
No, it doesn't mean that at all.
If it takes less time than that,does it mean that you're not
going to be successful?
No, not at all.
I know somebody who I was veryclose to who spent a lot of
years as an alcoholic.
(04:37):
I'm going to say probably 20years, 25 years, maybe longer.
And she got to that end point inher alcoholism.
And she literally, quiteliterally, turned herself over
to God.
And she got baptized and shehasn't had a drink since.
And it's been five years now.
some would say, oh, well, thenshe's probably going to fall
(04:59):
into the category of a drydrunk.
Well, possibly so.
But in talking to her, I wouldhave to say, probably not.
And the things that drove her tothat, I mean, she has an example
of an alcoholic mother.
She has an insane father who isdeceased, but a crazy father.
(05:20):
And She was influenced by a lotof her mom's bad behavior and
the people that her momsurrounded herself with and the
multiple marriages with drugaddicts and drug dealers and
alcoholics and whatever.
So she had a lot of examples ofthat in her life, and that
shaped and changed her viewpointof addiction.
Now, she became an alcoholic,yes, and she had an alcoholic
(05:43):
spouse, but her conversion toChristianity changed.
from where she was, which was tobe the opposite of a Christian,
just complete atheist, reallykind of shaped and changed her
path to recovery.
But that doesn't mean that it'snot real recovery.
(06:04):
It's really kind of where yourheart and where your head is at.
So the question of how long isit going to take?
It takes as long as it takes.
Some people will go out and, aswe say in the rooms, go out and
pick up and experimentrepeatedly sometimes.
Sometimes it's once or twice.
So they're going to goexperiment with, can I be still
(06:28):
using my drug of choice and belike a quote-unquote normal
person?
Well, you know what?
That's going to affect theirlife.
attempt at getting sober andclean because they're going to
be continually bargaining withthemselves and thinking that
they can get there.
And some of us do that.
You know, we just go out andcontinually experiment.
It may go on for years.
(06:50):
There is also the person thathas what I term an accident.
And that's where they go out anddrink once or use their drug of
choice once and for like a day.
Or two days.
And I don't consider that arelapse.
I consider that an accident.
They fell into something.
They usually come in reportingthat they felt really terrible
(07:11):
and they used something.
And then after they use, theyfeel terrible about how they
feel when they use.
And so for me, that accident ispart of the learning curve in
recovery.
Now, I know in the rooms, thoseof you who are in the NAAA
rooms, you would consider that arelapse.
And you've got to start theclock over again and get that
white chip, that 24-hour chip.
(07:33):
Well, true.
Okay, I'll go with that.
But in my practice, I don'tconsider that a relapse.
Now, if it goes on for weeks,yeah, no, we're in relapse
territory.
You need further help.
So that's going to add to thelength of time for your recovery
if you have a relapse.
If you have an accident, it'spart of the recovery process.
(07:59):
I'm not condoning it.
I'm not saying it's okay.
But it doesn't really...
detract from the work that youdid to get to that place where
you feel horrible about how youfeel when you're using.
So I don't really consider thatto add to the problem of
recovery.
It doesn't hinder it.
It doesn't start the clock overagain, at least in my practice.
(08:23):
But you do need to figure outwhat's going on when you're
using.
So the length of time that ittakes you to get into where you
can say I'm clean or I'm soberor both is as long as it takes.
So if you are out there and youare really struggling, perhaps
(08:44):
you've gone through multipleresidential treatments or you've
gone to IOP, multiple timesyou've been in and out of the
rooms a lot or you know whateverand you're struggling to get
there and it seems like it youknow it's been maybe going on
for two or three years manyou're hanging in there right so
you're you're trying it's justit's taking a long time so if
(09:08):
you look at that and you say ohwell I'm a complete failure
because it's been three yearsI've been working on recovery
it's not a failure it's It ispart of your process and
everybody is unique in theirprocess of recovery.
It's just kind of the deal.
(09:28):
If somebody has been drinking,let's say, for 17 years, 20
years, 25 years at the level ofalcoholic, you know, it's going
to take some time to get intorecovery.
I've had multiple cases over theyears of people that come to me,
(09:48):
and they're in their 60s, late60s, early 70s, and they've been
drinking for 40 years, sometimes50 years.
Well, how long is it going totake that person to get sober?
What's motivating you?
to get there.
It's what is around you.
What are you willing toparticipate in to get into your
(10:11):
recovery?
And how much effort or work areyou going to put into that
recovery?
That determines how long ittakes.
But the 50 years or the 40 yearsor the 20 years that you spent
as an actively engaged alcoholicor drug addict, is going to play
into how long that takes.
(10:32):
So let's start with how about bepatient.
Be kind.
Be patient with yourself.
Be, I don't know, caring.
Considerate for what you'retrying to overcome.
there's a lot of resistance.
There's a lot of arrogance.
We have talked about that inmany of the podcasts that I've
done.
And yeah, that's certainly acontributing factor to the
(10:55):
length of time.
It takes how much arrogance youengage in, but that when you
break that, when you, sorry,when you get to that breaking
point and you are like, I can'tdo this anymore.
For me, that's really when Istart the clock.
Now I've, worked with people whohave been working on working.
(11:16):
I'm using air quotes here onrecovery for, you know, on and
off for five, six, seven years.
They're not going to get thereuntil they actually say, I can't
do this anymore.
I don't, I don't know what todo, but I know I can't do this,
this being getting high ordrunk, anymore.
And that really is when itstarts.
(11:38):
You could have gone through allthe, you know, oh, I go to
meetings.
Oh, I got a sponsor, blah, blah,blah.
I'm not really working onanything.
I'm going through the motionsbecause somebody wants me to.
Or I'm fake sober.
I'm in the rooms, but I'm using.
There are people that do that.
And they're not really workingon sobriety.
So I don't count that as timethat they've worked on it.
(11:59):
They're just pretending.
It's fake sobriety.
It's fake clean.
When you actually say, look, Ican't do this anymore.
I'm done.
I surrender.
Start the clock.
Like that's when you start.
So you could have been workingon it in a fake way for years,
but never really gotten to thatpoint.
And then when you get to thatpoint, it's like you're on your
(12:22):
knees.
You're done.
You're not standing up in therooms.
You're on your knees in theroom.
You actually have just given up.
You surrender to that recovery.
And when you get to that point,that's really when you can
consider yourself working on it.
And again, at that point, itcould have been five years, but
the clock started, like I said,for me, when they get to that
(12:42):
point.
So now it's a year.
And a year later, that person isradically different.
And I do treat those people.
I have those people that I'vewalked through recovery who came
in with, I'm done.
And I'm so frustrated.
I've been to so many counselorswho just ignore when I say that
I have addiction.
(13:03):
They don't know what to do withit.
I've been to groups.
I've been to IOP where it's justa bunch of people that are
complaining or I don't even knowwhat the purpose of this is.
They've been to rehabs.
They were kind of sort ofseeking the help, but maybe they
went to the wrong place.
They didn't connect with it.
(13:24):
It wasn't good for them.
It didn't fit their need.
It didn't fit them, theirpersonality, their temperament.
Maybe it was people that weretoo harsh, too overbearing.
There's a methodology that someAA groups will follow that's old
school.
You know, we call it old school.
(13:45):
They're smoking in the rooms.
They're drinking coffee.
It's a bunch of old timers.
And they're just grousing andgrumbling about how, you know,
if you quit going to meetings,you're going to relapse for
sure.
So you've got to keep coming inthe rooms.
You know, there's that oldschool group.
And that's great because thatreally does work for some
people, you know.
That would probably work for me.
Um, if I needed it because Ineed somebody just beating on me
(14:07):
to get me there because I'm ahard head and pretty stubborn
and headstrong and I'm prettysmart.
So I could, you know, I can outFox you in a meeting.
But for somebody who was heavilytraumatized with maybe an
abusive father or mother, theywere getting beaten as a child,
verbally assaulted, thatprobably wouldn't work real
(14:27):
well, right?
Because it's going to bere-traumatizing.
So you've got to find a meeting.
Some person walks in there andthey're traumatized and they
hear that.
They're like, oh, man, I'm outof here, right?
And so then they might think,oh, that's what meetings are.
So I'm not going back.
And maybe they don't go back fora year or two until they come
along and they meet somebodylike me who says, no, man,
(14:47):
you've got to find a differentmeeting.
Go to different meetings.
Go to three or four differentmeetings in different locations
before you give me an opinionabout AA.
So the person who runs intothat, it may take them longer.
because they got scared awayfrom NA or AA.
Maybe they went to a placewhere, and this happens, maybe
(15:08):
they went to a place wherethere's meetings, and there was
a lot of like, There are a lotof games being played and a lot
of head games and things thatwere undermining people.
There's a lot of like 13steppers who were out there
cruising for chicks or guys orhookups and drugs and whatever.
And that's what they ran into ina meeting.
And that's going to certainlychange the amount of time it
(15:30):
takes you to get into recoverybecause you're going to shy away
from the rooms.
And that's a shame when thathappens.
But if that ever happens to you,you have to get out of that and
go to another meetings Trust me,there are a lot of good meetings
out there.
There are a lot of bad ones,too.
But there's also the fit, yourpersonality.
(15:52):
Maybe you're a little more shy.
Maybe you're a little morewithdrawn.
Maybe you're a little moreapprehensive.
Maybe you're scared.
And you need a meeting wherethey're welcoming.
So all these things factor intohow long it takes you.
Maybe you're in a situationwhere you're in a relationship
with somebody who's also anaddict, and now you've got this
(16:14):
huge problem of undermining yourown recovery.
Or maybe they're saying, oh, I'mgoing to participate with you,
and then they get in there andthey start playing head games
with you.
I've had that happen, and it'ssad.
Maybe your addiction is solinked to your relationship that
(16:35):
the only way you're going to getinto recovery is to actually get
away from the person that you'vebeen with for years, perhaps
years.
And it's a sad thing because nowyou've got the ending of a
relationship, and that'sgrieving, and then you've got
your own chaotic life, and maybeyou've lost something.
You know, that got to besideyour relationship.
(16:56):
But you've lost something elsethat forced you into into
recovery.
You lost your job.
You know, if you're a cop,you're on you're on the job.
And they say, hey, look, youcan't be a cop unless you.
going to rehab and you got tostart working on sobriety
because and you're under thewatchful eye of that or you work
for the you know Amtrak or oneof the trains companies shipping
(17:20):
companies and they say you can'tcome back and tell you okay so
you got this going on and nowyou realize in the process I got
to end my relationship becauseit's all based on one thing and
that is getting high or gettingdrunk and when you confront that
loved one with this isn't goingto work you have to get into
recovery with me or it's notgoing to work and they say no
(17:45):
and now you got to end thatrelationship could be you're
married to the person could beliving with them could been just
you've just been with them for along time maybe it's a family
member maybe it's your parentsor your uh your siblings that
you have these closerelationships with but now you
got to end it right you can'treconcile that with your
(18:05):
addiction That will certainlyplay into the length of time
that it takes you to get intorecovery because now you've got
all this emotional turmoil goingon and that's a problem.
So what are the factors?
What are the factors that aregoing to play into you working
on your recovery and what's itgoing to take to get there?
(18:28):
I heard, and I think I said thisin the last podcast, I'm not
sure, but you know Ben Affleck'sthing about you know the only
real cure for addiction issuffering and you know but it
can also end your recovery andso the suffering that you go
through when you end youraddiction or towards the end of
(18:48):
your addiction is when you'velost something right now in the
process of working on yourrecovery you have to end a
relationship it's sad and youneed continued support for that
and Those of you who are inrelationships where the person
that you're with is the addictand you're just kind of
observing them going throughthis, what are you contributing
(19:13):
to their recovery?
That's the perspective that youhave to have.
So just be aware of that.
If you're listening to this andyour loved one is the one that's
got the addiction, Just payattention to that.
I'll tell you, there's anotherthing that contributes to your
recovery, and that is how yousee yourself.
(19:34):
Many people, when they startworking on recovery, they feel
stigmatized and they feelshamed.
You know, because people arelooking at them going, oh, you
know, you got this addiction andit's a problem and you're not
trustworthy or whatever.
But the other part of it is youlook at yourself as being
dysfunctional and not, you know,broken.
(19:58):
And you're and so you selfstigmatize and.
You know, that's a real problemfor you.
That's a real problem inrecovery.
Because if you don't think ofyourself in a compassionate way,
then it's going to make it sothat it's very difficult for you
to actually get into recovery.
So when you're working onrecovery, you have to shift your
(20:19):
thinking.
You have to shift your thinkingfrom, I'm bad, I'm not worthy,
this is a problem for me becauseI failed.
Self-stigmatization.
Self-stigmatizing thinking,that's what I'm trying to say,
is very undermining to yourrecovery.
(20:41):
If you were not worthy ofconsideration, nobody would
bother with you.
And there are people out there,it's interesting, that's the
power of AA and NA, is theworking with sponsors.
Everybody that's in an addictivetrap, in the cycle of addiction,
(21:03):
has taken hold.
It's not because they're badpeople.
It's because their brain istelling them, I am
uncomfortable.
Please do something.
So using your drug of choice isthe thing you do.
That doesn't make you a badperson.
And I'm not saying that therearen't bad people who have
addiction.
Of course there are.
(21:23):
Jails are full of them.
Prisons are full of them.
People who are psychotic orthey're sociopathic and they
just harm people.
There are some bad people outthere, okay?
Don't get me wrong.
But just because you're anaddict doesn't make you a bad
person.
It makes you have a conditionthat is attacking you.
And so you have to work on thatcondition.
(21:44):
So if we can, as a group ofpeople, addicts, if we can start
to view ourselves as notbeing...
dysfunctional and problematic,we would get further in our
recovery than if weself-stigmatize and believe that
we're not worthy ofconsideration or care.
(22:07):
It's interesting when I ask anaddict, hey man, what about the
people in the rooms?
They always talk about thepeople in the rooms with such
compassion and such care about,man, that person was really,
they're in a really bad place.
They need help, and they'rehurting.
(22:32):
Or, wow, I heard that person'sstory in IOP, and wow, man, they
really overcame a lot.
Their family, at least I'm notlike them.
Because that's really bad.
And they suffered.
And then that same person, whenthey describe their own story,
they think of it as like, Ifailed, I'm a failure, I'm a bad
(22:54):
person, I did these horriblethings.
they don't show the same levelof compassion to themselves as
they feel for other people inthe rooms.
And I always find that quiteinteresting because when I tell
them that and I give them theexamples, like you just told,
tell me the worst story youheard in your recovery attempt,
like whether it was in rehab orwhatever, tell me the worst
(23:14):
story that you heard.
And they tell me the story.
And I said, what, when you hearthat story, what does that make
you think about that person?
And they're like, oh man, thatwas just so, It just breaks my
heart to hear that story.
They were molested over and overagain by their dad, or they were
beaten by their mom.
It's just like, wow, it justbreaks my heart when I hear
that.
And I'm like, okay, now tell meyour worst story.
(23:38):
Tell me the worst thing thathappened to you.
And they tell me and I repeatwhat I do is I repeat exactly
what they said to me about theother person.
I'm like, wow, that just breaksmy heart that you're telling me
that story.
It's so sad.
I can't imagine how horriblethat must have been for you.
Same words they use to describethe person that they heard that
(23:58):
person's bad story.
I repeat it back to them and Ican see them like feel it.
It's so interesting.
And I'm like, you know, you saidthe same thing about the person
who told you their bad story,your story is bad too.
And it deserves the same levelof empathy and consideration.
(24:21):
You know that, right?
And it's like a light bulb goesoff.
They're like, I never reallythought of it that way.
And I'm like, yeah, becauseyou're the person telling the
story.
So you've dissociated from it.
You've disconnected from it.
You think it is because you're abad person.
It's not because you're a badperson.
but your addiction is what'skilling you.
(24:43):
And so the length of time ittakes for that person to get
from understanding that theyjust can't do this anymore, to
the point where they can startto be empathetic about their own
story, about a year, year and ahalf.
And the shame is now starting todisappear and all the other
(25:06):
negative things.
But it's about a year and a yearand a half before they get
there.
So how long is it going to take?
It's going to take about thatlong.
Well, how long is that?
About that long.
And that's the answer.
So keep working on it.
Keep believing that you can getthere because you can.
(25:28):
Never give up.
Never, ever give up.
Keep trying and you'lleventually get there.
That's this edition of DocShock, your addiction lifeguard.
(26:08):
But, you know, just do whateveryou have to to get into
recovery.
It's not worth ending your lifeto save your addiction.
That's insanity.
So start working on it, willyou?
Please.
And until next time, this is DocJacques saying, see ya.
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