December 13, 2024 • 24 mins
A tough thing to do is to separate the problem from the addiction in order to move to recovery and self forgiveness.
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
I'm here to help.
If you're in search of help totry to get your life back
together, join me here atDocShock, your addiction
(00:21):
lifeguard, the addictionrecovery podcast.
to be real clear about what thispodcast is intended for.
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes, but
(00:45):
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
please seek that out.
If you're in dire need of help,you can go to your nearest
emergency room or you can checkinto a rehab center or call a
counselor like me and talk aboutyour problems and work through
them.
But don't rely on a podcast tobe that form of help.
(01:06):
It's not.
It's just a podcast.
It's for entertainment andinformation only.
So let's keep it in that light,all right?
Have a good time, learnsomething, and then get the real
help that you need from aprofessional.
(01:28):
You know the saying, God movesin mysterious ways, really
applies to us in recoverybecause a our mistakes and the
things that we've done seem likethey're so damaging to the
people around us and to us aswell.
And whether it's physical damageor emotional damage or spiritual
(01:51):
damage or something you've done,it's strange how the mind can
twist it all around and turn itinto some form of narcissistic
nonsense Or turn us into verysuper destructive people.
And I keep going back to thevideo that I've seen now.
(02:12):
I've watched it.
It's one of those reels onFacebook or YouTube or
something.
And it's the Ben Affleckappearance on the Howard Stern
radio show.
And I've seen it now severaltimes.
And I keep watching it becausewhat I see in it is a guy who...
And I don't even know how oldBen Affleck is.
(02:33):
He's got to be in his, what,50s, I guess, at this point.
But I keep viewing it because Isee something in it that just
keeps making me think about thepeople that I help.
And it's this self-directedanger that seems...
It comes across as weird whenyou're watching it.
And it's like sadness andfrustration and anger all kind
(02:57):
of rolled up into one.
And I watch him...
I don't know him.
I've never met him.
Who knows what he actually islike?
You can't tell from his face infront of a camera because people
have real personalities andthey're usually not what you're
seeing on camera.
(03:18):
I understand that.
But he seems very hostiletowards himself at times and
angry and frustrated.
And I can't imagine what it'slike to be somebody that is so
isolated and insulated fromreality as somebody who has that
much celebrity where you can'tbe a normal person in public
(03:39):
anymore.
But the anger that I seeradiating from him, and it's not
directed at any one person, atleast in that clip, it's not,
other than himself.
And he talks about, and if youhave seen the clip...
He's sitting there and he'sbeing asked by Howard Stern, how
(04:02):
did he get into recovery?
How does he maintain hisrecovery?
Something like that.
And his answer is, he would gointo the rooms and he'd listen
to these old people, these oldtimers who would tell these
stories about how bad they hadit.
And now they're so grateful andthankful that they are sober.
And he's sitting therestruggling and he goes, it just
(04:22):
really makes me angry because...
I don't, you know, how's thatrelate to me?
How are you helping me bytelling me about how great your
life is now in your recovery?
Because I'm struggling and Ineed to get there, but I'm not
there.
And then he goes on to say, youknow, and I would sit in the
rooms and I'd listen to that andI'd get upset and then I'd go
(04:42):
back out and I'd start drinkingagain.
And he said, you know, thankGod, you know, it didn't
necessarily affect my career andI didn't lose money.
But his relationship suffered,and I'm sure that that was part
of the demise of his variousmarriages and relationships and
struggles with his kids, I'msure.
But he said, you know, you losesomething, and you lose the
(05:07):
thing that you didn't want tolose, and that's what moves you
towards sobriety is loss.
It's always about loss.
And those words, I've beensaying those words for over 20
years because that is the truth,and everybody who's in recovery
knows it.
or at least most of them do.
Listen to Gabor Mate or any ofthe other experts in the field
(05:29):
that are heavily published orbroadcasting stuff out there,
and they talk about that.
All the popular ones that talkabout addiction.
Russell Brand, any of them.
Anyway, so it's the idea thatyou've lost something, but how
do you regain something?
What are you trying to regain?
(05:50):
And that's the real struggle.
And I see that over and over andover in people's lives, the
attempt at trying to regainsomething or at least not lose
something.
And it is a struggle.
And I have clients, and I've hadsome this year, that they were
fine, they were fine, and thenthey're not fine.
(06:11):
And then they disappear.
And it's like, what caused youto...
just give into or rather giveback into your addiction
surrender back over to youraddiction when you were doing
okay well there's two parts tothis one of the one of them is
the idea of you know drinking ordrugs weren't a problem and when
(06:34):
i started using them theyweren't the problem the problem
is the problem but then theybecame a problem themselves but
it's a separate problem And it'sdifferent from the problem that
you were coping with when youwere using your drug of choice.
Now the drug of choice hasbecome an additional problem, so
now you've got two of them.
(06:55):
And when I watch Ben Afflecktalking about this, I often kind
of wondered as I'm watching it,how does somebody that is in
that level of notoriety andisolation from regular society,
how does somebody get help andwork on the problem when there's
somebody like that and then Ialso think about my clients who
(07:20):
they're not rich and famous likeBen Affleck rich and famous
maybe they have money maybe theydon't maybe they're just a you
know a 20 year old who'sstruggling in school and trying
to figure it out what how dothey get help you know they they
isolate so they don't they'renot in they're not it's not
known that they have the problemit's not talked about so where
(07:41):
are they going to get the helpwell Okay, so you stop using,
and then that's when it reallybecomes painful.
And as I have said many, manytimes, and I say it all the time
to people in my practice, andI've said it on these podcasts,
when you first get into sobrietyor getting clean, it's going to
get worse, meaning your personalissues, before they get better
(08:03):
because you strip away thecoping mechanism, drugs and
alcohol, or whatever your drugof choice is, you strip it away.
Now you have nothing left to useto cope with that problem.
You just took away the copingmechanism, and now you're really
going to feel crappy.
So the idea that you're workingon the problem, okay, well, I
(08:25):
stopped the usage.
That's one.
But then I have the personalissues.
And that's where the new learnedskill of things like, how do I
learn how to forgive myself forwhat I've done?
How do I do that?
How do I forgive other peoplethat have done things to me?
How do I do that?
And that's really where therubber meets the road, so to
(08:47):
speak, when it comes torecovery, is trying to figure
out, okay, you're going toseparate out the drug of choice
usage, and I'm going to sortthat out.
And I did, but I keep wanting togo back to it because I can't
forgive, you know, or I can'treceive forgiveness.
And so one of my clients askedme about, you know, Something
(09:11):
they had done.
And I said, okay, well, youknow, we've got to work on
forgiveness.
And they just kind of looked atme and I said, we have to define
forgiveness, don't we?
And they, yeah, I don't knowwhat it is.
And it's not uncommon to notknow.
It is a very common thing forsomebody to not know
forgiveness.
(09:31):
what forgiveness is they thinkit's you know forgetting or it's
putting aside the uh theengagement of the memory of it
maybe they're going to just youknow improve learn from that and
improve so that they don'trepeat it now remember i'm
talking about self-forgivenessnot forgiving other people and
it's like no forgiveness is notany of those things Because if
(09:53):
you applied the same standard ofwhat is forgiveness that you
give to somebody else, you wouldnot say what you just said.
You would not say it's learninghow to just get past it, don't
think about it, don't dwell onit, don't bring it up.
It's none of those thingsbecause it's still there.
You still feel you're harboringthat feeling and you haven't
(10:15):
forgiven somebody.
So it's different for somebodyelse.
When you apply that to yourself,How do you forgive yourself for
things?
They just really are stumped.
And so when you're trying to getinto recovery and you have
nowhere to go with anythingbecause you just keep hanging on
to everything and you can'tseparate out the two things,
(10:37):
it's easy to go back to usingbecause you still have this pent
up contained issue that youcan't get over.
You can't function you can't youyou're just crippled by this
emotion of regret shame anger umyou know self-loathing whatever
(10:59):
it's a long journey out of thatand that's the point i want to
make is it's a very long journeyto arrive to the point where you
can forgive yourself i know ifyou've listened to my podcast
you've heard me talk about thisso many times before But I just
(11:20):
want to repeat it.
When somebody feels upset abouttheir actions, their behaviors,
the things they did in theirlives, and they really want to
get through that part of it,they want to process through
(11:41):
that, we end up talking about itat length for weeks and months.
And they want to just get overit quickly.
They want to go through itquickly.
They want to just, okay, this iswhat it is.
Let's move on.
And I'm like, no, we can't moveon.
We're going to stay here.
They feel uncomfortable.
(12:02):
So they go back to, okay, well,we talked about that.
We need to just, you know, andI'm like, no, no, we're going to
go back over it again.
And some people it drives crazy.
And it seems like the youngerthe person is, the more it
drives them crazy.
The older you get, it seems likeyou have more of an
understanding of time relevanceto your actions and spread out
(12:26):
over time your actions and theconsequences that it's easier
for you to talk about it andkind of hold in that moment but
you must continue to walkthrough that because it's and
it's funny the person sittingacross from me we're talking
about it and I say hey let'stalk about that thing that you
(12:47):
know that you did and I can seethem change.
I can say physically they'rechanging.
Their face starts getting alittle tight or sad.
I can see sadness.
Their shoulders slump down alittle bit and they just kind of
start looking at the ground ortheir eyes close and they just
go back to the place wherethey're living with the shame or
(13:08):
the anger and the disappointmentthey feel about the actions they
took.
I can see them doing itphysically.
They're giving me all the bodylanguage that that's where
they're going.
And so we talk about it, andI'll keep trying to drag more
and more facts out of it fromthem, because the first time you
(13:29):
tell it, you tell it, but youdon't give too much detail.
And every time they tell thesame story, there seems to be
more and more detail that theyinclude.
And so that's where they're at.
And they tell me more, and theytell me more.
And then they might go for...
you know, the next session ortwo and we don't really talk
(13:51):
about it too much.
And then it comes back up againand we talk about it again.
And this goes on and on and onuntil finally they start
actually hearing themselves.
And that's part of the key islike you're telling a story and
you get a little dissociatedfrom it.
You're not connected to it.
And then they've told it so manytimes that now they're starting
(14:12):
to actually realize and connectto it.
It's their story they'retelling.
It's not somebody else's story.
And so they're at that pointwhere they can recognize their
own words.
They hear their own words.
And it's easier for them to, atthat point, connect to it
emotionally.
You can't really get throughsomething if you don't connect
(14:35):
to it.
And the same is true whenthey're talking about their
parents or their siblings ortheir friends or their spouse or
their children or whoever it isthat maybe they've done
something wrong to them or aremore...
I guess to the point, thosepeople have done something wrong
to them.
And they want specifics.
They want specificacknowledgement that whatever
(14:56):
happened, the person who'ssaying, I'm sorry, I hope you
can forgive me for it.
They want that person toactually acknowledge fully what
it is that they're seekingforgiveness for.
And people have a hard timedoing that for themselves.
Because you have to be honestwith yourself.
So, sitting in a chair acrossfrom another human being.
(15:21):
And it's like that interstitialspace between cells.
That's where living actuallyoccurs.
It's like in that space betweencells.
And so the space between thetherapist and the client, that's
where the therapy occurs.
It doesn't occur in your brainas a client.
It doesn't occur in my brain.
It occurs in the space betweenus.
(15:42):
So those are the words and thebody language and the actions
and thus the feeling that youget.
And when somebody isexperiencing something, I want
to say in real time, and they'vereally brought it into reality,
There is that awareness of thespace between that becomes, it's
(16:06):
almost uncomfortable.
It is uncomfortable.
Even for me as I'm sitting therelistening to it and they're very
emotional and I can tell they'rereally in that feeling of
sadness and sorrow.
There's crying.
Sometimes they start raisingtheir voice.
But they're talking aboutthemselves and their own
disappointments.
(16:28):
And it's a powerful thing.
It's a very, very powerful thingto witness.
I have tremendous respect forthe power of that.
And when I hear somebody doingthat in my presence, I'm trying
to let them know I'm absorbingit.
I'm, you know, it's, I'm feelingit.
(16:48):
I'm feeling what they're, whatthey're expressing, but
reflecting back to them,compassion and, um, the idea of
forgiveness is, is vitallyimportant.
And so, um, and, and, you know,my clients who are, are, uh,
they have faith, they, um, Theythink that perhaps that God is
(17:12):
not going to forgive them forwhatever they've done, but the
reality is he is.
And part of that is you openlyconfessing and being honest and
admitting, right?
What it is that you've done orsaid that caused this.
And so I see them struggle withthis, but then when they start
to relax and they start givingmore emotion to it, and if you
(17:35):
are struggling with recovery andyou can't seem to get there and
you really are holding on tothese things that you have done
in your life and you feel likethey are unforgivable, that is
not true.
That is not true at all.
It can be forgiven.
You just have to accept that youcan be forgiven.
That is a vital part to this.
(17:55):
And so when you're in thosemoments and you're really
feeling that emotional pull ofsadness, you need to stay in
that place, in the presence ofanother person, and hopefully
somebody who's a verywell-trained trauma therapist
that can help you, guide youthrough that.
(18:19):
the content, if you will, ofthat forgiveness and that
acceptance.
Now, the therapist is notforgiving you.
They're bearing witness to you.
And as it says in the NewTestament that um that you have
(18:40):
to acknowledge the presence ofof god and it's kind of hard to
do sometimes so we say it in inuh in the presence of another
person in the 12 steps we wethat's uh step five right you're
saying it to yourself you'resaying out loud the nature and
extent of your character defectsout loud to yourself to another
(19:00):
person into god and what thatdoes is it it makes it so that
you're not just speaking into avacuum, seemingly.
Because I think that's what alot of addicts seem to...
Certainly that's what we kind offall into, right?
Because isolation is addiction'sbest friend.
And so you are saying something,but it perhaps is not heard, you
(19:25):
think, right?
So when you say it in front ofanother person, you're making it
real, right?
It's making it real for you andfor God.
And so...
The asking for forgiveness fromthings, it's not an act.
It's not a feeling.
It's not an intangible spiritualthing.
(19:47):
It's all of them combined.
And so when we ask forforgiveness, we have to receive
it, but we have to let it go.
And so when we have lostsomething that we didn't want to
lose, and then we get angryabout it, like Ben Affleck, What
we're doing is we are kind ofputting ourselves in a place
(20:09):
where we are primed for askingfor forgiveness for the
destruction.
Some of us, me included, havedone things that we really need
forgiveness for.
We really need to ask forforgiveness.
And if you have an addictionissue, you certainly have a need
(20:30):
for forgiveness.
Trust me.
the damage you've done being thetornado that blew into town is
tremendous and perhaps worsethan you think but don't be
afraid don't be timid and ithink the shame is kind of what
puts you into that place ofbeing timid and being timid is
(20:51):
not a good place to be becausenow you're not you're just
hiding right so don't hide beright up there be right up front
like stand up and Say, I didthese things.
And we do that when we work withsponsors in the STEP program.
We do that.
We talk about our stuff.
And if you've got a goodsponsor, he or she is not going
(21:13):
to let you just talk about itfor 10 minutes and move on to
the next thing.
It's going to be reallysearching into the inner soul of
what's going on.
Because I'll tell you something.
Hanging on to this stuff willdestroy you.
And it's not worth it.
So when you're trying toseparate out the addiction from
(21:37):
the problem, you must tackle theaddiction first.
Then we tackle the problem,whatever it is.
And then we go towards freedom.
So be fearless.
in your searching inventory ofyourself, but also be fearless
in the act of self-forgiveness,right?
(21:58):
And accepting forgiveness.
I'm going to forgive myself.
And we pattern that, at least inthe Christian world, we pattern
that after accepting forgivenessfrom God for the things that we
have done.
Like, I'm going to ask forforgiveness.
I'm going to ask for thatforgiveness.
And I must receive it.
If I ask for it, I'm going toreceive it.
If I ask for it and I don'treceive it, then you're kind of
(22:22):
spinning your wheels right so ifyou're going to ask for it you
must receive it and then you gotto ask yourself to forgive
yourself and i'm not going tolet the anger live within me for
my own mistakes i'm not going tolet that resentment live in me
for my own mistakes and eachtime and every time it comes
(22:42):
back up and it will come back upit has in my life over and over
again You have to keep goingback to it and saying, oh, yeah,
okay, well, here's another thingI need to forgive myself for, or
I do need to forgive myself forthis.
I already did that.
That's right.
I got to keep in that place,right?
So that you're not like an angryBen Affleck who, you know, is
(23:03):
just beside himself as to why ittook him so long to get to the
realization of what was going onbefore he got sober.
Because, you know, Ben Affleck,listen, man, Better late than
never, better late than dead.
Okay.
So dude, listen, you wentthrough some stuff.
God bless you for likestruggling.
(23:23):
And when you're surrounded byyes men and party people and
nobody's listening and you know,people that don't care, they
just want something from you.
Listen, that's all of us.
It's just for somebody likethat, it's fame and fortune.
And for others of us, it's justbecause, you know, people love
us.
(23:44):
Or they want to use us.
And so you've got to accept itwhen it's asked for.
But please ask for it.
Forgiveness is the way.
Well, I hope that satisfies yourneed for another episode of Doc
Shock, your addiction lifeguard.
I am Doc Shock, and I am acounselor.
(24:06):
If you need help, you can reachout to me through my website,
wellspringmindbody.com.
Send me a line.
Let me know.
I've had a few people reach outto me and ask me questions.
You can certainly do that.
I will answer you.
I promise you.
And if you like this podcast,please subscribe.
Please like it and come back andlisten to more because you know
(24:29):
what it's not worth ending yourlife just to save your addiction
because ultimately you're theloser right so let's get let's
get sober so until the nextepisode this is dark shock
saying see ya
I'm here to help.
If you're in search of help totry to get your life back
together, join me here atDocShock, your addiction
(00:21):
lifeguard, the addictionrecovery podcast.
to be real clear about what thispodcast is intended for.
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes, but
(00:45):
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
please seek that out.
If you're in dire need of help,you can go to your nearest
emergency room or you can checkinto a rehab center or call a
counselor like me and talk aboutyour problems and work through
them.
But don't rely on a podcast tobe that form of help.
(01:06):
It's not.
It's just a podcast.
It's for entertainment andinformation only.
So let's keep it in that light,all right?
Have a good time, learnsomething, and then get the real
help that you need from aprofessional.
(01:28):
You know the saying, God movesin mysterious ways, really
applies to us in recoverybecause a our mistakes and the
things that we've done seem likethey're so damaging to the
people around us and to us aswell.
And whether it's physical damageor emotional damage or spiritual
(01:51):
damage or something you've done,it's strange how the mind can
twist it all around and turn itinto some form of narcissistic
nonsense Or turn us into verysuper destructive people.
And I keep going back to thevideo that I've seen now.
(02:12):
I've watched it.
It's one of those reels onFacebook or YouTube or
something.
And it's the Ben Affleckappearance on the Howard Stern
radio show.
And I've seen it now severaltimes.
And I keep watching it becausewhat I see in it is a guy who...
And I don't even know how oldBen Affleck is.
(02:33):
He's got to be in his, what,50s, I guess, at this point.
But I keep viewing it because Isee something in it that just
keeps making me think about thepeople that I help.
And it's this self-directedanger that seems...
It comes across as weird whenyou're watching it.
And it's like sadness andfrustration and anger all kind
(02:57):
of rolled up into one.
And I watch him...
I don't know him.
I've never met him.
Who knows what he actually islike?
You can't tell from his face infront of a camera because people
have real personalities andthey're usually not what you're
seeing on camera.
(03:18):
I understand that.
But he seems very hostiletowards himself at times and
angry and frustrated.
And I can't imagine what it'slike to be somebody that is so
isolated and insulated fromreality as somebody who has that
much celebrity where you can'tbe a normal person in public
(03:39):
anymore.
But the anger that I seeradiating from him, and it's not
directed at any one person, atleast in that clip, it's not,
other than himself.
And he talks about, and if youhave seen the clip...
He's sitting there and he'sbeing asked by Howard Stern, how
(04:02):
did he get into recovery?
How does he maintain hisrecovery?
Something like that.
And his answer is, he would gointo the rooms and he'd listen
to these old people, these oldtimers who would tell these
stories about how bad they hadit.
And now they're so grateful andthankful that they are sober.
And he's sitting therestruggling and he goes, it just
(04:22):
really makes me angry because...
I don't, you know, how's thatrelate to me?
How are you helping me bytelling me about how great your
life is now in your recovery?
Because I'm struggling and Ineed to get there, but I'm not
there.
And then he goes on to say, youknow, and I would sit in the
rooms and I'd listen to that andI'd get upset and then I'd go
(04:42):
back out and I'd start drinkingagain.
And he said, you know, thankGod, you know, it didn't
necessarily affect my career andI didn't lose money.
But his relationship suffered,and I'm sure that that was part
of the demise of his variousmarriages and relationships and
struggles with his kids, I'msure.
But he said, you know, you losesomething, and you lose the
(05:07):
thing that you didn't want tolose, and that's what moves you
towards sobriety is loss.
It's always about loss.
And those words, I've beensaying those words for over 20
years because that is the truth,and everybody who's in recovery
knows it.
or at least most of them do.
Listen to Gabor Mate or any ofthe other experts in the field
(05:29):
that are heavily published orbroadcasting stuff out there,
and they talk about that.
All the popular ones that talkabout addiction.
Russell Brand, any of them.
Anyway, so it's the idea thatyou've lost something, but how
do you regain something?
What are you trying to regain?
(05:50):
And that's the real struggle.
And I see that over and over andover in people's lives, the
attempt at trying to regainsomething or at least not lose
something.
And it is a struggle.
And I have clients, and I've hadsome this year, that they were
fine, they were fine, and thenthey're not fine.
(06:11):
And then they disappear.
And it's like, what caused youto...
just give into or rather giveback into your addiction
surrender back over to youraddiction when you were doing
okay well there's two parts tothis one of the one of them is
the idea of you know drinking ordrugs weren't a problem and when
(06:34):
i started using them theyweren't the problem the problem
is the problem but then theybecame a problem themselves but
it's a separate problem And it'sdifferent from the problem that
you were coping with when youwere using your drug of choice.
Now the drug of choice hasbecome an additional problem, so
now you've got two of them.
(06:55):
And when I watch Ben Afflecktalking about this, I often kind
of wondered as I'm watching it,how does somebody that is in
that level of notoriety andisolation from regular society,
how does somebody get help andwork on the problem when there's
somebody like that and then Ialso think about my clients who
(07:20):
they're not rich and famous likeBen Affleck rich and famous
maybe they have money maybe theydon't maybe they're just a you
know a 20 year old who'sstruggling in school and trying
to figure it out what how dothey get help you know they they
isolate so they don't they'renot in they're not it's not
known that they have the problemit's not talked about so where
(07:41):
are they going to get the helpwell Okay, so you stop using,
and then that's when it reallybecomes painful.
And as I have said many, manytimes, and I say it all the time
to people in my practice, andI've said it on these podcasts,
when you first get into sobrietyor getting clean, it's going to
get worse, meaning your personalissues, before they get better
(08:03):
because you strip away thecoping mechanism, drugs and
alcohol, or whatever your drugof choice is, you strip it away.
Now you have nothing left to useto cope with that problem.
You just took away the copingmechanism, and now you're really
going to feel crappy.
So the idea that you're workingon the problem, okay, well, I
(08:25):
stopped the usage.
That's one.
But then I have the personalissues.
And that's where the new learnedskill of things like, how do I
learn how to forgive myself forwhat I've done?
How do I do that?
How do I forgive other peoplethat have done things to me?
How do I do that?
And that's really where therubber meets the road, so to
(08:47):
speak, when it comes torecovery, is trying to figure
out, okay, you're going toseparate out the drug of choice
usage, and I'm going to sortthat out.
And I did, but I keep wanting togo back to it because I can't
forgive, you know, or I can'treceive forgiveness.
And so one of my clients askedme about, you know, Something
(09:11):
they had done.
And I said, okay, well, youknow, we've got to work on
forgiveness.
And they just kind of looked atme and I said, we have to define
forgiveness, don't we?
And they, yeah, I don't knowwhat it is.
And it's not uncommon to notknow.
It is a very common thing forsomebody to not know
forgiveness.
(09:31):
what forgiveness is they thinkit's you know forgetting or it's
putting aside the uh theengagement of the memory of it
maybe they're going to just youknow improve learn from that and
improve so that they don'trepeat it now remember i'm
talking about self-forgivenessnot forgiving other people and
it's like no forgiveness is notany of those things Because if
(09:53):
you applied the same standard ofwhat is forgiveness that you
give to somebody else, you wouldnot say what you just said.
You would not say it's learninghow to just get past it, don't
think about it, don't dwell onit, don't bring it up.
It's none of those thingsbecause it's still there.
You still feel you're harboringthat feeling and you haven't
(10:15):
forgiven somebody.
So it's different for somebodyelse.
When you apply that to yourself,How do you forgive yourself for
things?
They just really are stumped.
And so when you're trying to getinto recovery and you have
nowhere to go with anythingbecause you just keep hanging on
to everything and you can'tseparate out the two things,
(10:37):
it's easy to go back to usingbecause you still have this pent
up contained issue that youcan't get over.
You can't function you can't youyou're just crippled by this
emotion of regret shame anger umyou know self-loathing whatever
(10:59):
it's a long journey out of thatand that's the point i want to
make is it's a very long journeyto arrive to the point where you
can forgive yourself i know ifyou've listened to my podcast
you've heard me talk about thisso many times before But I just
(11:20):
want to repeat it.
When somebody feels upset abouttheir actions, their behaviors,
the things they did in theirlives, and they really want to
get through that part of it,they want to process through
(11:41):
that, we end up talking about itat length for weeks and months.
And they want to just get overit quickly.
They want to go through itquickly.
They want to just, okay, this iswhat it is.
Let's move on.
And I'm like, no, we can't moveon.
We're going to stay here.
They feel uncomfortable.
(12:02):
So they go back to, okay, well,we talked about that.
We need to just, you know, andI'm like, no, no, we're going to
go back over it again.
And some people it drives crazy.
And it seems like the youngerthe person is, the more it
drives them crazy.
The older you get, it seems likeyou have more of an
understanding of time relevanceto your actions and spread out
(12:26):
over time your actions and theconsequences that it's easier
for you to talk about it andkind of hold in that moment but
you must continue to walkthrough that because it's and
it's funny the person sittingacross from me we're talking
about it and I say hey let'stalk about that thing that you
(12:47):
know that you did and I can seethem change.
I can say physically they'rechanging.
Their face starts getting alittle tight or sad.
I can see sadness.
Their shoulders slump down alittle bit and they just kind of
start looking at the ground ortheir eyes close and they just
go back to the place wherethey're living with the shame or
(13:08):
the anger and the disappointmentthey feel about the actions they
took.
I can see them doing itphysically.
They're giving me all the bodylanguage that that's where
they're going.
And so we talk about it, andI'll keep trying to drag more
and more facts out of it fromthem, because the first time you
(13:29):
tell it, you tell it, but youdon't give too much detail.
And every time they tell thesame story, there seems to be
more and more detail that theyinclude.
And so that's where they're at.
And they tell me more, and theytell me more.
And then they might go for...
you know, the next session ortwo and we don't really talk
(13:51):
about it too much.
And then it comes back up againand we talk about it again.
And this goes on and on and onuntil finally they start
actually hearing themselves.
And that's part of the key islike you're telling a story and
you get a little dissociatedfrom it.
You're not connected to it.
And then they've told it so manytimes that now they're starting
(14:12):
to actually realize and connectto it.
It's their story they'retelling.
It's not somebody else's story.
And so they're at that pointwhere they can recognize their
own words.
They hear their own words.
And it's easier for them to, atthat point, connect to it
emotionally.
You can't really get throughsomething if you don't connect
(14:35):
to it.
And the same is true whenthey're talking about their
parents or their siblings ortheir friends or their spouse or
their children or whoever it isthat maybe they've done
something wrong to them or aremore...
I guess to the point, thosepeople have done something wrong
to them.
And they want specifics.
They want specificacknowledgement that whatever
(14:56):
happened, the person who'ssaying, I'm sorry, I hope you
can forgive me for it.
They want that person toactually acknowledge fully what
it is that they're seekingforgiveness for.
And people have a hard timedoing that for themselves.
Because you have to be honestwith yourself.
So, sitting in a chair acrossfrom another human being.
(15:21):
And it's like that interstitialspace between cells.
That's where living actuallyoccurs.
It's like in that space betweencells.
And so the space between thetherapist and the client, that's
where the therapy occurs.
It doesn't occur in your brainas a client.
It doesn't occur in my brain.
It occurs in the space betweenus.
(15:42):
So those are the words and thebody language and the actions
and thus the feeling that youget.
And when somebody isexperiencing something, I want
to say in real time, and they'vereally brought it into reality,
There is that awareness of thespace between that becomes, it's
(16:06):
almost uncomfortable.
It is uncomfortable.
Even for me as I'm sitting therelistening to it and they're very
emotional and I can tell they'rereally in that feeling of
sadness and sorrow.
There's crying.
Sometimes they start raisingtheir voice.
But they're talking aboutthemselves and their own
disappointments.
(16:28):
And it's a powerful thing.
It's a very, very powerful thingto witness.
I have tremendous respect forthe power of that.
And when I hear somebody doingthat in my presence, I'm trying
to let them know I'm absorbingit.
I'm, you know, it's, I'm feelingit.
(16:48):
I'm feeling what they're, whatthey're expressing, but
reflecting back to them,compassion and, um, the idea of
forgiveness is, is vitallyimportant.
And so, um, and, and, you know,my clients who are, are, uh,
they have faith, they, um, Theythink that perhaps that God is
(17:12):
not going to forgive them forwhatever they've done, but the
reality is he is.
And part of that is you openlyconfessing and being honest and
admitting, right?
What it is that you've done orsaid that caused this.
And so I see them struggle withthis, but then when they start
to relax and they start givingmore emotion to it, and if you
(17:35):
are struggling with recovery andyou can't seem to get there and
you really are holding on tothese things that you have done
in your life and you feel likethey are unforgivable, that is
not true.
That is not true at all.
It can be forgiven.
You just have to accept that youcan be forgiven.
That is a vital part to this.
(17:55):
And so when you're in thosemoments and you're really
feeling that emotional pull ofsadness, you need to stay in
that place, in the presence ofanother person, and hopefully
somebody who's a verywell-trained trauma therapist
that can help you, guide youthrough that.
(18:19):
the content, if you will, ofthat forgiveness and that
acceptance.
Now, the therapist is notforgiving you.
They're bearing witness to you.
And as it says in the NewTestament that um that you have
(18:40):
to acknowledge the presence ofof god and it's kind of hard to
do sometimes so we say it in inuh in the presence of another
person in the 12 steps we wethat's uh step five right you're
saying it to yourself you'resaying out loud the nature and
extent of your character defectsout loud to yourself to another
(19:00):
person into god and what thatdoes is it it makes it so that
you're not just speaking into avacuum, seemingly.
Because I think that's what alot of addicts seem to...
Certainly that's what we kind offall into, right?
Because isolation is addiction'sbest friend.
And so you are saying something,but it perhaps is not heard, you
(19:25):
think, right?
So when you say it in front ofanother person, you're making it
real, right?
It's making it real for you andfor God.
And so...
The asking for forgiveness fromthings, it's not an act.
It's not a feeling.
It's not an intangible spiritualthing.
(19:47):
It's all of them combined.
And so when we ask forforgiveness, we have to receive
it, but we have to let it go.
And so when we have lostsomething that we didn't want to
lose, and then we get angryabout it, like Ben Affleck, What
we're doing is we are kind ofputting ourselves in a place
(20:09):
where we are primed for askingfor forgiveness for the
destruction.
Some of us, me included, havedone things that we really need
forgiveness for.
We really need to ask forforgiveness.
And if you have an addictionissue, you certainly have a need
(20:30):
for forgiveness.
Trust me.
the damage you've done being thetornado that blew into town is
tremendous and perhaps worsethan you think but don't be
afraid don't be timid and ithink the shame is kind of what
puts you into that place ofbeing timid and being timid is
(20:51):
not a good place to be becausenow you're not you're just
hiding right so don't hide beright up there be right up front
like stand up and Say, I didthese things.
And we do that when we work withsponsors in the STEP program.
We do that.
We talk about our stuff.
And if you've got a goodsponsor, he or she is not going
(21:13):
to let you just talk about itfor 10 minutes and move on to
the next thing.
It's going to be reallysearching into the inner soul of
what's going on.
Because I'll tell you something.
Hanging on to this stuff willdestroy you.
And it's not worth it.
So when you're trying toseparate out the addiction from
(21:37):
the problem, you must tackle theaddiction first.
Then we tackle the problem,whatever it is.
And then we go towards freedom.
So be fearless.
in your searching inventory ofyourself, but also be fearless
in the act of self-forgiveness,right?
(21:58):
And accepting forgiveness.
I'm going to forgive myself.
And we pattern that, at least inthe Christian world, we pattern
that after accepting forgivenessfrom God for the things that we
have done.
Like, I'm going to ask forforgiveness.
I'm going to ask for thatforgiveness.
And I must receive it.
If I ask for it, I'm going toreceive it.
If I ask for it and I don'treceive it, then you're kind of
(22:22):
spinning your wheels right so ifyou're going to ask for it you
must receive it and then you gotto ask yourself to forgive
yourself and i'm not going tolet the anger live within me for
my own mistakes i'm not going tolet that resentment live in me
for my own mistakes and eachtime and every time it comes
(22:42):
back up and it will come back upit has in my life over and over
again You have to keep goingback to it and saying, oh, yeah,
okay, well, here's another thingI need to forgive myself for, or
I do need to forgive myself forthis.
I already did that.
That's right.
I got to keep in that place,right?
So that you're not like an angryBen Affleck who, you know, is
(23:03):
just beside himself as to why ittook him so long to get to the
realization of what was going onbefore he got sober.
Because, you know, Ben Affleck,listen, man, Better late than
never, better late than dead.
Okay.
So dude, listen, you wentthrough some stuff.
God bless you for likestruggling.
(23:23):
And when you're surrounded byyes men and party people and
nobody's listening and you know,people that don't care, they
just want something from you.
Listen, that's all of us.
It's just for somebody likethat, it's fame and fortune.
And for others of us, it's justbecause, you know, people love
us.
(23:44):
Or they want to use us.
And so you've got to accept itwhen it's asked for.
But please ask for it.
Forgiveness is the way.
Well, I hope that satisfies yourneed for another episode of Doc
Shock, your addiction lifeguard.
I am Doc Shock, and I am acounselor.
(24:06):
If you need help, you can reachout to me through my website,
wellspringmindbody.com.
Send me a line.
Let me know.
I've had a few people reach outto me and ask me questions.
You can certainly do that.
I will answer you.
I promise you.
And if you like this podcast,please subscribe.
Please like it and come back andlisten to more because you know
(24:29):
what it's not worth ending yourlife just to save your addiction
because ultimately you're theloser right so let's get let's
get sober so until the nextepisode this is dark shock
saying see ya
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