May 16, 2025 • 23 mins
There is a specific part of Step 9 that I always feel I need to address when working with people working on recovery.
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
It's time again for Doc Jock, your addiction
lifeguard podcast.
I am Dr.
Jock DeBerker, a psychologist,licensed professional counselor,
and addiction specialist.
If you are suffering fromaddiction, misery, trauma,
whatever it is, I'm here tohelp.
If you're in search of help totry to get your life back
together, join me here at DocJock, your addiction lifeguard,
(00:22):
the addiction recovery podcast.
I wanted to be real clear aboutwhat this podcast is intended
for.
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes but
(00:45):
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
Please seek that out.
If you're in dire need of help,you can go to your nearest
emergency room or you can checkinto a rehab center or call a
counselor like me and talk aboutyour problems and work through
them.
But don't rely on a podcast tobe that form of help.
(01:06):
It's not.
It's just a podcast.
It's for entertainment andinformation only.
So let's keep it in that light.
All right.
Have a good time.
Learn something and then get thereal help that you need from a
professional.
UNKNOWN (01:19):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:51):
Step 9 in the 12-step process is a very
specific attempt to make amends,to try to right the feelings of
wrongs when it comes to thethings that you've done.
So step 9 in the 12-step processsays,"...made direct amends to
(02:12):
such people whenever possible,except when to do so would
injure them or others." I wantedto address a very, very specific
part of step nine, except whento do so, you know, when it
would cause injury to thosepeople or to others.
(02:34):
I have an interpretation of thatwhen it comes to the injury
part.
There are a lot of times whenI'm dealing with people and I'm
walking them through the stepsin my therapy and they're It's
funny because they want to tryto do step nine right away
because when they start gettingclean or they start getting
(02:56):
sober, they immediately want togo to fixing the problems.
And especially with men, menhave a real problem with that
because they're very linear.
They see a problem.
They want to pick one of thesolutions that are out there,
implement it, and then move on.
And that's not how recoveryworks.
First of all, that's not how alot of things in life work.
And then you lay that into anaddict brain where I want it all
(03:20):
and I want it right now.
Thinking would lead you to thatpoint where you're trying to do
everything immediately.
and just to get it over with.
But the specifics of step ninethat I find interesting, and I
have an interpretation of itthat is perhaps a little
different than maybe you havethought of, certainly it is more
different than I've heard, andthat is that the injury part to
(03:42):
the individual that you'retrying to do the step nine with,
right?
So you're trying to, butwhenever to do so would injure
them or others.
But who does that include?
So the person, obviously theperson that you're trying to
make amends to, right?
So you meet with somebody andyou're talking to them.
(04:04):
You're trying to go through theissues that you had and you're
apologizing and trying to figureout a way to make it okay for
the person.
But actually what you're doingis you're trying to allow them
the opportunity to relievethemselves of the anger that you
gifted them.
In your addiction, you act crazyand you chaotically and you
cause problems for people.
(04:26):
And when you're making amends,what you're doing is you're
saying to that person, listen, Igave you anger as this horrible,
unwanted gift, and I'm trying togive you the opportunity to give
it back to me because youshouldn't have to carry the
burden of that problem of theanger or the upset or the
resentment or whatever it is,the sadness or whatever you've
(04:47):
given that person.
So you're giving them theopportunity to be relieved of
that pain.
Now, if they want to hang on toit, they can, but you're
offering that up.
So when you're meeting withpeople and you're trying to make
amends, except when it wouldcause injury to them or to
others, I believe, it is mybelief, that when you're making
(05:08):
amends, sometimes the situationcan be so catastrophic to you,
the addict, that making amendswould cause injury to you.
And this is a difficult problemfor people there are people who
because of situations or how itkind of played out in their
(05:29):
lives making amends would begoing to that person saying I'm
sorry that I injured you I'msorry that I did these things to
you I want you to know I nowknow how wrong that was but
being in the presence of thatperson may be so so injurious to
you injurious in a way thatcauses you to to feel um pain
that you're you just you'vespent maybe a year two years
(05:53):
three years four years workingthrough that pain so somebody
who um is a trusted loved oneand you know your addiction had
caused them to uh to lose thingsor to have to changed their
lives in such a way that theywere trying to take care of you
or resolve issues, and it causedthem a huge amount of problems.
(06:14):
But at the same time, perhapsthat was somebody that was
abusive to you.
And that happens with parents alot of times.
The parents become the ones whoare the perpetrators of these,
not crimes, but these times ofinjury.
They were abusive to theirchildren, but they The children
(06:35):
stayed with them, and theystayed with the children until
they finally were getting intothe ages where they were
teenagers or maybe later, andthey became destructive.
And you have, as an addict, youhave this tremendous amount of
resentment and anger towardsthat parent for being abusive.
And yet, later in life, youcause them pain by being
(06:55):
destructive.
I've had that happen in myfamily.
and uh you know with my with myum aunts and uncles um i've seen
that happen and it so when youapproach somebody that has been
an abuser of you but you thencaused problems for them maybe
(07:16):
going to them and making amendswould cause injury to you
because you've never been ableto maybe they just the person
who was doing that to you neverstopped really doing it And so
you get this weird dynamic ofyou love them, but you can't
stand them.
You have contempt for them, butyou have maybe child parental
(07:38):
respect.
And you just don't want to goback to that place.
Boundaries is what recovery isall about, having boundaries.
And if it means you have tocross that boundary to go do
that, and that would cause youproblems, that's something to
think about.
Now, here's the part that that Iwant to make sure that people
(07:59):
understand is that if you feellike confronting that person and
trying to make amends with themwould cause you harm, you need
to have that discussion withsomebody else and you need to
discuss it for a while to cometo the determination as to what
that actually means to you.
(08:20):
Because, you know, a lot oftimes we are our worst, best
counsel.
We only listen to the voice inour head, and we're not
listening to others' voices.
And so my suggestion is that youwork through that issue
thoroughly, and if notcompletely, in the presence of a
counselor or therapist thatwould be, you know, or your
(08:43):
pastor, a trusted, a very close,trusted friend who has a lot of
respect for you and you forthem.
but somebody that has a positionof understanding and or
authority that you respect.
Because if you decide that notmaking amends to that person
directly, when you know wherethey are, you could find them.
And you may not have contactwith them on a regular basis,
(09:08):
but you know where they are.
You need to make sure that whatyou're doing is actually
correct.
And you can't do that by makingyour own decisions.
because like I said, we are ourown worst counsel when it comes
to the really tough things.
So my hope is that if you'reconsidering yourself as being in
(09:29):
a position where making amendswould cause injury to you,
that's what you feel in yourheart, like I can't do that,
that you have worked through theunderstanding of that because
not confronting people, and I'msaying that in a positive way,
confronting, Being, approachingthat person and making amends is
(09:50):
something that is, that you dofor you and you do it for the
other person.
But if you are going to try tofigure out a way to get out of
doing it, that's not a goodchoice.
And that's what I see somepeople doing.
They kind of chicken out, right?
You're just going to be a littlebit of a coward in that and that
you don't confront the person.
(10:11):
with the things that you've donethat are wrong and try to make
amends because it's easier tojust avoid the whole thing.
There are a couple of peoplethat have done things to me and
I know they have moved towardsrecovery and they've never done
step nine with me.
And, you know, I know otherpeople have experienced this.
I mean, maybe you've experiencedthis.
(10:33):
You see the person, you see theywere a train wreck, they were
abusing the relationship or yousomehow, And then you see them
get better and then they nevertry to deal with the things that
they did in recovery to you.
And it can leave you with someresentment.
And perhaps it's a little bitworse for me because I know this
(10:54):
whole process inside and out,backwards and forwards.
I teach people to do it.
I walk people through it.
I see them go through this.
So for somebody to not do a stepnine with me when they should be
doing it, for me, it raises alot of suspicion about where
they are in their recovery, eventhough they, you know, appear to
(11:15):
be recovered.
But it also makes me wonderabout their inner strength,
right?
That courage, you know, beingcourageous to be able to do that
and maybe being a little bit ofa coward in the process of not
being able to do it.
That's certainly in there.
So when you're trying todecide...
(11:37):
Is this going to be an injury tome if I do this?
Is this going to be a problemfor me?
Should I do something aboutthat?
You know, my own inner workingof my problems?
Yes, you absolutely should.
So should I do this?
Yes or no?
I don't feel like I have thestrength or I don't want to put
myself in a situation where I'mgoing to be...
(11:58):
Abused by others or I'm going togo through all the stuff that I
just spent the last two years orthree years or four years
working through and now I'mgoing to go see that person.
A really good example of thatwas I had a client who was
severely alcoholic.
Very nice woman.
She was in her mid 30s, late30s, early 40s, somewhere in
(12:21):
there.
And she had been sexually abusedby her father when she was
growing up.
And she was in a position whereshe had to, in her recovery, she
had caused a tremendous amountof damage to the relationship
she had with her two parents,who were still together.
Because being somebody who wasas old as she was and as much of
(12:44):
a train wreck as she was, shehad to be cared for.
A lot of alcoholics do that.
They lose their jobs.
They lose their housing.
And they need a place to stay.
Well, she was graciously given aplace to stay.
by her parents.
And so she's living with themand now she's in recovery.
And she needs to make amends toher father.
(13:05):
Well, she had moved out of thehouse.
She was there for, I don't know,a few months and then she left.
And this is a really conflictingkind of thing because her father
had never acknowledged anywrongdoing and the sexual abuse
that he had committed againsthis daughter, nor had he ever um
(13:25):
apologized for it he didn't hejust it just it went on and on
and on and he never apologizedhe never did anything to to
rectify the situation so for hisdaughter who now is an adult to
come to him and say hey i'msorry that i was such a you know
a burden to you as an adult umthis was going to cause her a
(13:48):
lot of problems and the sexualabuse was severe in her case and
then her alcoholism and theacting out she did as an adult
was severe and we had very longdiscussions about this because
going to her mother was onething she had some resentment
(14:11):
towards her mother about notdoing anything about you know
what she knew her husband wasdoing to his daughter or her
daughter and that was one thingwe talked about that quite a bit
but We had these very intensesessions for weeks about this
because to do the amends wouldcause her harm.
(14:35):
And she was very conflicted bythat because she felt a
tremendous amount of guilt abouthow she had been conducting
herself.
with her parents and forcing herparents to be worried and
concerned and to have to put upfinancially as well as
physically for her well-being,knowing that that was a problem.
(14:56):
And then she says she wasextremely conflicted about this.
And the discussions that we hadwere around, well, what does it
mean to you if you have to lookat this man and make amends for
something you've done and he hasnever made amends or made an
attempt to make amends for whathe's done.
And I, you know, we talked aboutit from every angle possible.
(15:18):
Like, well, if you do that andhe says, you know, I appreciate
your apology and then that's it.
And, you know, now you've madeamends with him and he does
nothing.
He doesn't say anything aboutanything he did.
That's one thing.
Or perhaps you make amends andhe turns...
(15:38):
At that moment, and then hebreaks down and apologizes and
makes amends or tries to makeamends for what he did to you.
There's that possibility.
What if he just brushes it off?
I mean, all the possibilitiesthat were there, we talked about
it from every possible angleuntil she finally came to the
conclusion that this amends thatshe would try to make with him
(16:03):
would cause her too much harm.
And her alcoholism was a directcause from the severe trauma she
suffered as a child with sexualabuse with her father.
There was really nothing else,but she was so paralyzed by
this.
It destroyed her marriage.
She ended up getting divorced.
I think she lost her job, if Iremember correctly, in the
(16:26):
process with the alcoholism.
And all of her drinking, it wasall...
based on her being very, veryunhappy and upset about the
relationship that she had as achild with her parents and the
abuse she suffered.
So it was a very difficult thingfor her to realize that this,
coming to this point where shewould say that this would cause
(16:49):
harm to others, and thatincludes me, meant that she
would not be able to make amendsto him directly even though he
was still in the place where shelived.
in the town but um she had kindof moved on at that point she
had moved on with her life shehad been able to stop the
drinking get herself together umyou know find ways to to uh to
(17:13):
live a healthy clean sober lifeand that was great because
that's you know that's what shewas trying for was sobriety but
the peacefulness and sobrietyescaped her um Because of the
issues around the issue with herfather and trying to make amends
and trying to figure out what todo.
So in the end, what we did waswe made amends.
(17:36):
I'm saying we.
She made amends to her father asif it was somebody that you
can't go to.
They're either dead.
You don't know who they are.
You don't know where to findthem or they're refusing to meet
with you.
And she made amends in that way.
And there was a little ceremonyaround it that was created that
(17:58):
we did that allowed her to getto that place.
It was very tough for her to gothrough that.
And witnessing it was very hardtoo because it's difficult when
somebody is– neglected or abusedor abandoned or assaulted in
some way that's that leaves anindelible mark that's always
(18:22):
going to have a little bit ofscar tissue around it it's the
injury that you know it's sodeep that for life you'll have a
little bit of a scar um andthat's the situation with her
but in the end she had to andand she also had to practice
that amends several times and wedid that several times um over
(18:44):
over the next few months becauseit was difficult for her to she
would go back to it let me putit that way she'd go back to
that feeling and she wouldrevisit it and then we'd have to
go through it again um so thepart that i wanted the whole
point of that story is the theability to um make amends except
(19:05):
when to when to do so wouldcause injury or harm to that
person or to others.
You need to consider what thatmeans.
It's a very, very importantthing.
In the big book, the steps are,it's a single sentence, and I
read it to you.
It's a single sentence, but it'sa very potent, powerful thing.
(19:29):
And it has a lot of potentialfor healing as well as
destruction.
And you need to make sure thatyou take into account every bit
of it before you enter intosomething like making amends.
It's a very challenging thing.
You're confronting your ownstuff and you're doing it
publicly with the person thatyou harmed.
And it's very tricky.
(19:52):
There are a lot of things toconsider.
Going to somebody and addressingit is a challenging thing.
It takes a lot of bravery andcourage to do it.
And when you do try, when you doit, And if you do get rejected
in the process, it can behurtful.
There are times when people Iknow, and I've done this myself,
(20:14):
when I've apologized and theperson says, I can't forgive
you.
That hurts.
It hurts in a way that you can'treally fathom how much that's
going to injure you.
at the time so having the thecourage to be able to do that is
a great thing if you're able todo it and if you did do it and
(20:35):
then the know that what you'rereally doing is you're trying to
make it right for yourself andfor the other person that's you
know it's a scriptural thingforgiving others how many times
must we forgive these peoplethat keep yelling at us or
(20:55):
attacking us and how many timesdo we have to do it seven times
five times seven times how aboutseven times seventy how about
every time those are jesus'swords too um you know how what
is the purpose of forgivenessforgiveness is teaching and
(21:17):
showing what we are and what wewould like other people to be
treat them with fairness treatthem with um consideration
that's what jesus was trying totell uh the people that were
against him and against the uhthe 12 apostles and um you know
we're trying to be better peopleand in recovery certainly we're
(21:38):
trying to be better people butboy we come from a really low
dark place to get there um Andso trying to understand how to
forgive is one part.
The action of forgiving isanother part.
But the consideration involvedin the forgiveness process is
the third part of it.
And you have to consideryourself.
(22:01):
You can't not make amends withsomebody directly simply because
you are being cowardly, right?
You're less than courageous.
That's not a reason for doingit.
You must...
Make amends, either with theperson or without them, because
what you're doing is you'remaking it right with God.
(22:21):
That's the whole point of the12-step process is I have to
make this right because I haveto be the righteous person.
So finding ways to be able to dothat with courage and with
consideration is a reallyimportant part of the 12 steps,
and in particular, Step 9.
So if you're in that point whereyou're doing step nine, be
(22:44):
courageous, be fearless, andknow that when you're
confronting others, what you'redoing is you're dealing with the
problems that you've broughtthem and you're relieving them
of the anger that you gave them.
It's the unwanted gift.
Well, that's this episode of DocShock, your addiction lifeguard.
Hope you've enjoyed thisepisode.
(23:05):
And if you have, please like,subscribe and tell others.
Send me a message and let meknow what you think.
I appreciate the comments, but Ireally do appreciate the
feedback that we get.
I read the feedback and considerit in these podcasts.
If you're trying to get help foryour addiction or you're
thinking about getting help,just go do it.
(23:26):
Go to rehab.
Go to the hospital.
Get a counselor.
Go to meetings.
Step into the rooms.
But do something.
Don't just end your life in theprocess of getting high or
getting drunk and thinking thatthat's the solution to the
problems.
It's not.
Go get some help.
Get some support.
Until next time, this is Dr.
(23:47):
Jacques saying, see ya.
It's time again for Doc Jock, your addiction
lifeguard podcast.
I am Dr.
Jock DeBerker, a psychologist,licensed professional counselor,
and addiction specialist.
If you are suffering fromaddiction, misery, trauma,
whatever it is, I'm here tohelp.
If you're in search of help totry to get your life back
together, join me here at DocJock, your addiction lifeguard,
(00:22):
the addiction recovery podcast.
I wanted to be real clear aboutwhat this podcast is intended
for.
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes but
(00:45):
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
Please seek that out.
If you're in dire need of help,you can go to your nearest
emergency room or you can checkinto a rehab center or call a
counselor like me and talk aboutyour problems and work through
them.
But don't rely on a podcast tobe that form of help.
(01:06):
It's not.
It's just a podcast.
It's for entertainment andinformation only.
So let's keep it in that light.
All right.
Have a good time.
Learn something and then get thereal help that you need from a
professional.
UNKNOWN (01:19):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:51):
Step 9 in the 12-step process is a very
specific attempt to make amends,to try to right the feelings of
wrongs when it comes to thethings that you've done.
So step 9 in the 12-step processsays,"...made direct amends to
(02:12):
such people whenever possible,except when to do so would
injure them or others." I wantedto address a very, very specific
part of step nine, except whento do so, you know, when it
would cause injury to thosepeople or to others.
(02:34):
I have an interpretation of thatwhen it comes to the injury
part.
There are a lot of times whenI'm dealing with people and I'm
walking them through the stepsin my therapy and they're It's
funny because they want to tryto do step nine right away
because when they start gettingclean or they start getting
(02:56):
sober, they immediately want togo to fixing the problems.
And especially with men, menhave a real problem with that
because they're very linear.
They see a problem.
They want to pick one of thesolutions that are out there,
implement it, and then move on.
And that's not how recoveryworks.
First of all, that's not how alot of things in life work.
And then you lay that into anaddict brain where I want it all
(03:20):
and I want it right now.
Thinking would lead you to thatpoint where you're trying to do
everything immediately.
and just to get it over with.
But the specifics of step ninethat I find interesting, and I
have an interpretation of itthat is perhaps a little
different than maybe you havethought of, certainly it is more
different than I've heard, andthat is that the injury part to
(03:42):
the individual that you'retrying to do the step nine with,
right?
So you're trying to, butwhenever to do so would injure
them or others.
But who does that include?
So the person, obviously theperson that you're trying to
make amends to, right?
So you meet with somebody andyou're talking to them.
(04:04):
You're trying to go through theissues that you had and you're
apologizing and trying to figureout a way to make it okay for
the person.
But actually what you're doingis you're trying to allow them
the opportunity to relievethemselves of the anger that you
gifted them.
In your addiction, you act crazyand you chaotically and you
cause problems for people.
(04:26):
And when you're making amends,what you're doing is you're
saying to that person, listen, Igave you anger as this horrible,
unwanted gift, and I'm trying togive you the opportunity to give
it back to me because youshouldn't have to carry the
burden of that problem of theanger or the upset or the
resentment or whatever it is,the sadness or whatever you've
(04:47):
given that person.
So you're giving them theopportunity to be relieved of
that pain.
Now, if they want to hang on toit, they can, but you're
offering that up.
So when you're meeting withpeople and you're trying to make
amends, except when it wouldcause injury to them or to
others, I believe, it is mybelief, that when you're making
(05:08):
amends, sometimes the situationcan be so catastrophic to you,
the addict, that making amendswould cause injury to you.
And this is a difficult problemfor people there are people who
because of situations or how itkind of played out in their
(05:29):
lives making amends would begoing to that person saying I'm
sorry that I injured you I'msorry that I did these things to
you I want you to know I nowknow how wrong that was but
being in the presence of thatperson may be so so injurious to
you injurious in a way thatcauses you to to feel um pain
that you're you just you'vespent maybe a year two years
(05:53):
three years four years workingthrough that pain so somebody
who um is a trusted loved oneand you know your addiction had
caused them to uh to lose thingsor to have to changed their
lives in such a way that theywere trying to take care of you
or resolve issues, and it causedthem a huge amount of problems.
(06:14):
But at the same time, perhapsthat was somebody that was
abusive to you.
And that happens with parents alot of times.
The parents become the ones whoare the perpetrators of these,
not crimes, but these times ofinjury.
They were abusive to theirchildren, but they The children
(06:35):
stayed with them, and theystayed with the children until
they finally were getting intothe ages where they were
teenagers or maybe later, andthey became destructive.
And you have, as an addict, youhave this tremendous amount of
resentment and anger towardsthat parent for being abusive.
And yet, later in life, youcause them pain by being
(06:55):
destructive.
I've had that happen in myfamily.
and uh you know with my with myum aunts and uncles um i've seen
that happen and it so when youapproach somebody that has been
an abuser of you but you thencaused problems for them maybe
(07:16):
going to them and making amendswould cause injury to you
because you've never been ableto maybe they just the person
who was doing that to you neverstopped really doing it And so
you get this weird dynamic ofyou love them, but you can't
stand them.
You have contempt for them, butyou have maybe child parental
(07:38):
respect.
And you just don't want to goback to that place.
Boundaries is what recovery isall about, having boundaries.
And if it means you have tocross that boundary to go do
that, and that would cause youproblems, that's something to
think about.
Now, here's the part that that Iwant to make sure that people
(07:59):
understand is that if you feellike confronting that person and
trying to make amends with themwould cause you harm, you need
to have that discussion withsomebody else and you need to
discuss it for a while to cometo the determination as to what
that actually means to you.
(08:20):
Because, you know, a lot oftimes we are our worst, best
counsel.
We only listen to the voice inour head, and we're not
listening to others' voices.
And so my suggestion is that youwork through that issue
thoroughly, and if notcompletely, in the presence of a
counselor or therapist thatwould be, you know, or your
(08:43):
pastor, a trusted, a very close,trusted friend who has a lot of
respect for you and you forthem.
but somebody that has a positionof understanding and or
authority that you respect.
Because if you decide that notmaking amends to that person
directly, when you know wherethey are, you could find them.
And you may not have contactwith them on a regular basis,
(09:08):
but you know where they are.
You need to make sure that whatyou're doing is actually
correct.
And you can't do that by makingyour own decisions.
because like I said, we are ourown worst counsel when it comes
to the really tough things.
So my hope is that if you'reconsidering yourself as being in
(09:29):
a position where making amendswould cause injury to you,
that's what you feel in yourheart, like I can't do that,
that you have worked through theunderstanding of that because
not confronting people, and I'msaying that in a positive way,
confronting, Being, approachingthat person and making amends is
(09:50):
something that is, that you dofor you and you do it for the
other person.
But if you are going to try tofigure out a way to get out of
doing it, that's not a goodchoice.
And that's what I see somepeople doing.
They kind of chicken out, right?
You're just going to be a littlebit of a coward in that and that
you don't confront the person.
(10:11):
with the things that you've donethat are wrong and try to make
amends because it's easier tojust avoid the whole thing.
There are a couple of peoplethat have done things to me and
I know they have moved towardsrecovery and they've never done
step nine with me.
And, you know, I know otherpeople have experienced this.
I mean, maybe you've experiencedthis.
(10:33):
You see the person, you see theywere a train wreck, they were
abusing the relationship or yousomehow, And then you see them
get better and then they nevertry to deal with the things that
they did in recovery to you.
And it can leave you with someresentment.
And perhaps it's a little bitworse for me because I know this
(10:54):
whole process inside and out,backwards and forwards.
I teach people to do it.
I walk people through it.
I see them go through this.
So for somebody to not do a stepnine with me when they should be
doing it, for me, it raises alot of suspicion about where
they are in their recovery, eventhough they, you know, appear to
(11:15):
be recovered.
But it also makes me wonderabout their inner strength,
right?
That courage, you know, beingcourageous to be able to do that
and maybe being a little bit ofa coward in the process of not
being able to do it.
That's certainly in there.
So when you're trying todecide...
(11:37):
Is this going to be an injury tome if I do this?
Is this going to be a problemfor me?
Should I do something aboutthat?
You know, my own inner workingof my problems?
Yes, you absolutely should.
So should I do this?
Yes or no?
I don't feel like I have thestrength or I don't want to put
myself in a situation where I'mgoing to be...
(11:58):
Abused by others or I'm going togo through all the stuff that I
just spent the last two years orthree years or four years
working through and now I'mgoing to go see that person.
A really good example of thatwas I had a client who was
severely alcoholic.
Very nice woman.
She was in her mid 30s, late30s, early 40s, somewhere in
(12:21):
there.
And she had been sexually abusedby her father when she was
growing up.
And she was in a position whereshe had to, in her recovery, she
had caused a tremendous amountof damage to the relationship
she had with her two parents,who were still together.
Because being somebody who wasas old as she was and as much of
(12:44):
a train wreck as she was, shehad to be cared for.
A lot of alcoholics do that.
They lose their jobs.
They lose their housing.
And they need a place to stay.
Well, she was graciously given aplace to stay.
by her parents.
And so she's living with themand now she's in recovery.
And she needs to make amends toher father.
(13:05):
Well, she had moved out of thehouse.
She was there for, I don't know,a few months and then she left.
And this is a really conflictingkind of thing because her father
had never acknowledged anywrongdoing and the sexual abuse
that he had committed againsthis daughter, nor had he ever um
(13:25):
apologized for it he didn't hejust it just it went on and on
and on and he never apologizedhe never did anything to to
rectify the situation so for hisdaughter who now is an adult to
come to him and say hey i'msorry that i was such a you know
a burden to you as an adult umthis was going to cause her a
(13:48):
lot of problems and the sexualabuse was severe in her case and
then her alcoholism and theacting out she did as an adult
was severe and we had very longdiscussions about this because
going to her mother was onething she had some resentment
(14:11):
towards her mother about notdoing anything about you know
what she knew her husband wasdoing to his daughter or her
daughter and that was one thingwe talked about that quite a bit
but We had these very intensesessions for weeks about this
because to do the amends wouldcause her harm.
(14:35):
And she was very conflicted bythat because she felt a
tremendous amount of guilt abouthow she had been conducting
herself.
with her parents and forcing herparents to be worried and
concerned and to have to put upfinancially as well as
physically for her well-being,knowing that that was a problem.
(14:56):
And then she says she wasextremely conflicted about this.
And the discussions that we hadwere around, well, what does it
mean to you if you have to lookat this man and make amends for
something you've done and he hasnever made amends or made an
attempt to make amends for whathe's done.
And I, you know, we talked aboutit from every angle possible.
(15:18):
Like, well, if you do that andhe says, you know, I appreciate
your apology and then that's it.
And, you know, now you've madeamends with him and he does
nothing.
He doesn't say anything aboutanything he did.
That's one thing.
Or perhaps you make amends andhe turns...
(15:38):
At that moment, and then hebreaks down and apologizes and
makes amends or tries to makeamends for what he did to you.
There's that possibility.
What if he just brushes it off?
I mean, all the possibilitiesthat were there, we talked about
it from every possible angleuntil she finally came to the
conclusion that this amends thatshe would try to make with him
(16:03):
would cause her too much harm.
And her alcoholism was a directcause from the severe trauma she
suffered as a child with sexualabuse with her father.
There was really nothing else,but she was so paralyzed by
this.
It destroyed her marriage.
She ended up getting divorced.
I think she lost her job, if Iremember correctly, in the
(16:26):
process with the alcoholism.
And all of her drinking, it wasall...
based on her being very, veryunhappy and upset about the
relationship that she had as achild with her parents and the
abuse she suffered.
So it was a very difficult thingfor her to realize that this,
coming to this point where shewould say that this would cause
(16:49):
harm to others, and thatincludes me, meant that she
would not be able to make amendsto him directly even though he
was still in the place where shelived.
in the town but um she had kindof moved on at that point she
had moved on with her life shehad been able to stop the
drinking get herself together umyou know find ways to to uh to
(17:13):
live a healthy clean sober lifeand that was great because
that's you know that's what shewas trying for was sobriety but
the peacefulness and sobrietyescaped her um Because of the
issues around the issue with herfather and trying to make amends
and trying to figure out what todo.
So in the end, what we did waswe made amends.
(17:36):
I'm saying we.
She made amends to her father asif it was somebody that you
can't go to.
They're either dead.
You don't know who they are.
You don't know where to findthem or they're refusing to meet
with you.
And she made amends in that way.
And there was a little ceremonyaround it that was created that
(17:58):
we did that allowed her to getto that place.
It was very tough for her to gothrough that.
And witnessing it was very hardtoo because it's difficult when
somebody is– neglected or abusedor abandoned or assaulted in
some way that's that leaves anindelible mark that's always
(18:22):
going to have a little bit ofscar tissue around it it's the
injury that you know it's sodeep that for life you'll have a
little bit of a scar um andthat's the situation with her
but in the end she had to andand she also had to practice
that amends several times and wedid that several times um over
(18:44):
over the next few months becauseit was difficult for her to she
would go back to it let me putit that way she'd go back to
that feeling and she wouldrevisit it and then we'd have to
go through it again um so thepart that i wanted the whole
point of that story is the theability to um make amends except
(19:05):
when to when to do so wouldcause injury or harm to that
person or to others.
You need to consider what thatmeans.
It's a very, very importantthing.
In the big book, the steps are,it's a single sentence, and I
read it to you.
It's a single sentence, but it'sa very potent, powerful thing.
(19:29):
And it has a lot of potentialfor healing as well as
destruction.
And you need to make sure thatyou take into account every bit
of it before you enter intosomething like making amends.
It's a very challenging thing.
You're confronting your ownstuff and you're doing it
publicly with the person thatyou harmed.
And it's very tricky.
(19:52):
There are a lot of things toconsider.
Going to somebody and addressingit is a challenging thing.
It takes a lot of bravery andcourage to do it.
And when you do try, when you doit, And if you do get rejected
in the process, it can behurtful.
There are times when people Iknow, and I've done this myself,
(20:14):
when I've apologized and theperson says, I can't forgive
you.
That hurts.
It hurts in a way that you can'treally fathom how much that's
going to injure you.
at the time so having the thecourage to be able to do that is
a great thing if you're able todo it and if you did do it and
(20:35):
then the know that what you'rereally doing is you're trying to
make it right for yourself andfor the other person that's you
know it's a scriptural thingforgiving others how many times
must we forgive these peoplethat keep yelling at us or
(20:55):
attacking us and how many timesdo we have to do it seven times
five times seven times how aboutseven times seventy how about
every time those are jesus'swords too um you know how what
is the purpose of forgivenessforgiveness is teaching and
(21:17):
showing what we are and what wewould like other people to be
treat them with fairness treatthem with um consideration
that's what jesus was trying totell uh the people that were
against him and against the uhthe 12 apostles and um you know
we're trying to be better peopleand in recovery certainly we're
(21:38):
trying to be better people butboy we come from a really low
dark place to get there um Andso trying to understand how to
forgive is one part.
The action of forgiving isanother part.
But the consideration involvedin the forgiveness process is
the third part of it.
And you have to consideryourself.
(22:01):
You can't not make amends withsomebody directly simply because
you are being cowardly, right?
You're less than courageous.
That's not a reason for doingit.
You must...
Make amends, either with theperson or without them, because
what you're doing is you'remaking it right with God.
(22:21):
That's the whole point of the12-step process is I have to
make this right because I haveto be the righteous person.
So finding ways to be able to dothat with courage and with
consideration is a reallyimportant part of the 12 steps,
and in particular, Step 9.
So if you're in that point whereyou're doing step nine, be
(22:44):
courageous, be fearless, andknow that when you're
confronting others, what you'redoing is you're dealing with the
problems that you've broughtthem and you're relieving them
of the anger that you gave them.
It's the unwanted gift.
Well, that's this episode of DocShock, your addiction lifeguard.
Hope you've enjoyed thisepisode.
(23:05):
And if you have, please like,subscribe and tell others.
Send me a message and let meknow what you think.
I appreciate the comments, but Ireally do appreciate the
feedback that we get.
I read the feedback and considerit in these podcasts.
If you're trying to get help foryour addiction or you're
thinking about getting help,just go do it.
(23:26):
Go to rehab.
Go to the hospital.
Get a counselor.
Go to meetings.
Step into the rooms.
But do something.
Don't just end your life in theprocess of getting high or
getting drunk and thinking thatthat's the solution to the
problems.
It's not.
Go get some help.
Get some support.
Until next time, this is Dr.
(23:47):
Jacques saying, see ya.
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