Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
I'm again for Dr.
Addiction Life Guard Placement.
I'm Dr.
Doctor psychology.
License Professional Help for anAddiction Special.
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(00:21):
Addiction Life Guard, theAddiction Recovery Podcast.
I wanted to be real clear aboutwhat this podcast is intended
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(00:41):
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes, but
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
please seek that out.
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(01:02):
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help that you need from aprofessional.
(01:29):
You know, THC today isn't thesame as what your parents or
more likely your grandparentsused to call pot.
We, you know, it's weed.
Uh, but what used to be at abouta two to four percent THC level
plant has turned into a chemicalconcentrate reaching 90%
(01:51):
potency.
Um that's way different than itused to be.
That's not a mild buzz, that's aneurochemical storm coming at
you.
And that's what I wanted to talkabout today was the much debated
uh topic of like, what are youwhat are we calling THC uh stuff
today and why it is so sodangerous and deadly and uh
(02:16):
causing so many problems.
So let's let's kind of set thisup with an understanding of kind
of what we're talking about.
So THC is the chemical compound,it's the primary psychoactive
compound in in cannabis plants.
It binds to the CB1 receptors inthe brain and the CB2 receptors
(02:36):
in the immune system.
Both.
And so both parts of thatendocinoidal, um,
endocannaboidal system, excuseme, the C E C S, it regulates
pain, mood, appetite, memory,um, and that's that's the effect
that it has when you're gettinghigh.
(02:56):
It's affecting those things,right?
So you're feeling differentabout things.
You get, you know, the effectsof it.
Um I'm I got the munchies, Ifeel kind of mellowed out, I'm
not feeling pain, my memory iskind of disappearing on me.
So the ECS naturally uses that,so this cannabid system that we
have internally, which regulatesmood, pain, appetite memory, the
(03:20):
e that's the ECS, it itnaturally uses internal
cannabides.
So it uses these internalcannabides, cannab cannibinoids,
cannabinoids, to maintain thatbalance of of the th mood, pain,
appetite, memory.
(03:41):
When you introduce THCexternally, you're smoking it,
you're ingesting it, itoveractivates the ECS.
So it disrupts normalregulation.
And so you become more of, youknow, whatever.
So you're that's when the themood and the appetite and the
memory and the pain and all ofthat gets all kind of thrown out
(04:03):
of whack because you're throwingoff the internal receptors,
neuroreceptors that we have,because you're introducing more
of that THC than we have in ourbodies, and we have THC in our
bodies naturally.
So but the bigger problem is notthat, it's the the change in the
THC levels.
That's the thing that isbecoming so problematic.
(04:26):
So in the 1960s and 70s, theaverage uh cannabis um it was
two to four percent THC, and sovery low potency.
In the 1990s, they had figuredout how to get the potency up in
that THC level of the plants, sothe strains were averaging about
(04:50):
six percent.
In the 2020s, vape oils, dabs,shatter, they these these
potency levels are reachingsixty and ninety percent.
And that's where the problemlies, is in the increase in the
levels because we're getting awhole different thing happening.
(05:12):
So cannabis use disorder, um,it's defined in our diagnostic
statistical manual, the DSM, 5TR.
Um, it's a pattern of cannabisuse causing clinically
significant impairment ordistress, and it meets there's
11 criteria, you've got to meetuh two or more within 12 months.
(05:36):
Tolerance, withdrawal,unsuccessful attempts to cut
down, cravings, and neglect ofobligations and uh different
things like that.
It's a it's the typical um uhaddiction kind of diagnostic
criteria we use, but it's gotit's two out of the eleven,
which is not many compared tosome of the other drugs.
So the and that's what we use toto diagnose.
(05:58):
So we're defining it byaddiction or abuse, right?
So the impact on you as aperson.
So the addiction mechanismthat's going on there, THC
triggers dopamine, it releasesin the mesolimbic reward
pathway, so it's triggering thisdopamine release, and the
(06:19):
repeated use desensitizes thosedopamine receptors.
So it produces a tolerance and aneed for higher amounts of the
THC.
Um when you're getting highlevels to begin with, your
tolerance is going to becompeting against, so to speak,
the amount of the levels of theTHC in the products that you're
(06:40):
using.
Um withdrawal.
The withdrawal symptoms, hugeproblem there.
Irritability, sleep disturbance,decreased appetite, anxiety,
vivid dreams when you'rewithdrawing.
Um two to three days after youstopped.
(07:01):
Might go as long as seven.
I've heard as long as ten.
Some of my clients arecomplaining about these things
uh going on and on, and sleepdisturbance actually can go on
for a year after you stopped.
Um, and I'm gonna go intoreasons why in a little bit.
Um but so the the the brain andthe body on THC, what what
(07:22):
happens to that?
Now, again, understand, I mean,I'm competing against another uh
voice that people hear, which isit's natural, it's a plant-based
thing, and so hey, what's thebig deal?
You know, well, so is heroin, sois hash, so is cocaine.
(07:43):
Uh other drugs are out therethat are are horribly bad.
And it's funny because thedefense of it's a natural
product, you would never applythat to cocaine.
You would never apply that to umheroin.
Well, it's it comes from poppyseeds.
Uh cocaine comes from the cocaplant.
You you would not associate thatwith, hey, it's natural.
(08:06):
It's a plant.
What's the big deal?
I never have heard that as adefense for the usage of those
drugs, but I do hear it withmarijuana.
And that's the old, I think it'sthe old hippie, you know, cheech
and chong hippie thing of like,hey man, it's just a plant.
What's the big deal?
Well, so is alcohol, and so isheroin, and so is cocaine, and
(08:29):
they're problems.
They're huge problems.
And nobody ever disagrees withme on that one.
But how does what happens to thebrain and the body when you're
on THC products?
Well, here's part of the issue.
We we couldn't study THC legallyin in our country, in the United
States, because it was a bannedsubstance.
So you couldn't do laboratoryexperience experiments, you
(08:52):
couldn't um do double blindexperiments, you couldn't do any
any t you know, actual clinicalresearch.
You could only ask, you know, ifyou asked somebody, hey, are you
using this?
Yes, no.
But we had no idea how much theywere using.
We couldn't, you know, wecouldn't go into that level of
of research.
But when they started legalizingit, we could.
In Colorado, that was a gift toscience community because now we
(09:13):
can verify what we had thoughtall along.
And it was actually worse thanwe thought.
But so here, let me just go oversome of the problems that that
happened in the body and thebrain with THC.
Let's go through them point bypoint.
Cognitive impact, short-termmemory impairments, slow
processing speed, difficultywith um uh executive
(09:36):
functioning, making decisions,it's uh frontal cortex
functioning, cognitive impact,neuroimaging.
Um, when you take a when youtake a an fMRI um and it shows
reduced activity in theprefrontal cortex in the
hippocampus, these aresignificant parts of our brain
that really make us who we areas individuals.
(09:58):
So when you when you've gotsomebody who's using THC
products and uh you do an fMRIneural imaging, you can see that
there is greatly reducedactivity in that prefrontal
cortex in the hippocampus area.
And so then that's going toaffect decision making and who
you who you are.
Like your personality is rightthere in the front of your
(10:19):
brain.
Motivational effects, um thatthat reduced uh reduced response
leads to anti-motivationalsyndrome.
That's what we call it.
Loss of drive, goal-directedbehavior.
I have many clients that come inhere who are um using THC
regularly and and ongoing, andthey just they don't they're not
(10:45):
there's no drive.
There's no drive there.
The the psychiatric risk, um, itcan induce acute psychosis and
exacerbated latentschizophrenia.
We know this, we've known thisfor a while.
Um, but the problem, you know,when they were studying that,
they started studying that backin 2002, 2003, but the level of
(11:09):
psychosis is is frightening.
Um, and it's with lower andlower age groups.
I have clients who are teenagerswho are I get parents that are
calling me while they're takingtheir kid who's 15, 16, 17 years
old, and they're having apsychotic break in the car on
the way to the emergency room,and the parent has absolutely no
(11:30):
idea what's going on.
And the only thing that shows upon a talk screen at the hospital
is THC because that's what theyused.
And they report this to me.
They'll say, I all I did wasjust, you know, I I ate some
edibles.
Um and you know, or I I wasusing my dab pen.
And I I I don't know whathappened.
(11:51):
It was like they just went intothe psychotic break, and that's
the only thing they were using.
Um sleep disruption.
Sleep disruption is a hugeproblem.
Um well, uh, let me let me goback.
I because I I really want toemphasize this schizophrenia,
latent schizophrenia, later thanuh normal.
(12:16):
So schizophrenia normally startsshowing up at between 18 and 25.
And um there's a there's anthere's a risk increase of uh,
especially if you have a familyhistory of psychosis, of uh let
me see if I can remember theresearch.
(12:36):
It was uh five times.
Five times the amount of risk,especially with those with a
family of psychosis, if you'reusing THC products.
Five times.
The sleep disruption thing,that's a huge problem.
Um I I have reports of clientswho you know they initially
(12:57):
thought they were using uh THCproducts to help them go to
sleep, only to find out thatit's it's just making it worse
and they're confused, you know.
Um and the sleep disturbance umhas a has another side to it.
So you stop using THC products,maybe you go to a rehab and
you've been using your ediblesor dabs or doing shatter or
(13:21):
whatever, and you get there andyou can't sleep.
And you know, you were doingother drugs, maybe you're
drinking, maybe you're in therefor like drugs and alcohol, or
or maybe multiple drugs.
You got cocaine or heroin,fentanyl, something, and you're
using THC products on top ofthat, and you're using a lot of
it.
Withdrawal, you have thishorrible rebound dream intensity
(13:44):
thing that comes up.
And um that's that's one of theproblems with the sleep
disruption is the the dreams,you know, you wake up, you're
having a horrible dream,nightmare, it's too intense, and
just waking up.
Now you're you know, you gothrough a couple of days of
that, and then you're afraid togo to sleep.
So it's a huge problem.
In addition to the up to a yearof sleep disturbance, just
(14:07):
either waking up in the middleof the night or having a hard
time going to sleep that goesthrough withdrawal that lasts
seems to be the thing that laststhe longest.
So there's a huge impact thatuse of THC has on people, and
they would like to ignore it,and many of them do, but that's
just the reality (14:25):
psychosis, latent schizophrenia, um, memory
problems, impairment.
Now remember, I'm not talkingabout 1960s, 1970s,
stereotypical hippie who's justsmoking a joint and having a
good time, and it's not a bigproblem.
We didn't see any of thisbefore.
Now, with with the new forms ofTHC, we're seeing it, and we're
(14:47):
seeing it in the worst formspossible.
So that's because there's achange.
So what do we have?
We've got we got new things inin THC: vapes, edibles, dabs.
It's a huge change in how you'reingesting it and the amount that
you're getting, the uptake ofit, how fast it occurs, uh, in
some instances the delay of andthen a quick uptake.
(15:10):
So let me explain this.
Uh, especially if you'relistening to this and you don't
really understand uh much aboutTHC.
Perhaps you're not using it.
Maybe your family member who'slistening to this and trying to
figure this out.
So you got oils, vape oils.
Um they contain all kinds ofsolvents, residues, synthetic
cutting agents that are in it.
So the vape oils are what you'regetting in um when you're vaping
(15:34):
the vape pen.
They had to make it liquid,right?
So they had to have this uhsolvent to get it there, and
then they have to cut it.
So they're doing differentthings like vitamin T vitamin E,
acetate, which is linked to um EV A L I, lung injury, evali lung
injury.
(15:55):
Sometimes we don't even knowwhat is in that.
Uh there's no requirement tolist every single thing in that
vape pen.
And and even if they do, I mean,we're finding that it's just,
you know, it's out there.
One of my clients went to aconvenience store, um, and he is
a THC addict who's in recovery,and he walked into a convenience
store, and there was uh dab pensthat had 50,000 units of THC in
(16:19):
the dab pen, in a single dabpen.
And he was shocked when he sawthat.
He was like, Man, if I pick thatup, I'd I could just get as high
as a kite just so quick, andit's 50,000 units um of THC.
Wow.
Um, vape oils are, you know, youseriously, it could be just a
(16:40):
vape pen that has nothing in it,or it has a vape oil uh or a uh
THC oil in it, and if you're uhseen using it, you're not
they're not nobody's gonna know.
They can't smell it.
They don't know it's any othervape, it could be anything other
any other kind of vape oil.
Grape vape oil, you know, withTHC in it.
Edibles.
(17:00):
Edibles, here's another thing.
Okay, so the the clients that Ihave that use THC products, they
run into trouble with edibles.
Edibles have a delayed onset,one to two hours.
Uh once you've once you'veconsumed it.
It takes one to two hours beforeit hits you.
And so uh a lot of times what Isee is people using edibles,
(17:24):
they don't feel like they'regetting high, so they eat more,
they eat more.
Well, now you've wayoverconsumed, or you have no
real idea about how much you'reconsuming, so you take too much,
but it's going to be a couple ofhours perhaps before you'd even
know.
It can cause panic attacks,vomiting, hallucinations because
(17:46):
the THC, it's a delayed onset,and if you're overconsuming, you
end up with THC toxicity, whichreally results in the things I'm
talking about, the panic and theum the vomiting, the
hallucinations, the psychosistype things.
Dab pens.
Um little pen, little, it's likea little heated metal tip end
(18:07):
pen, and you're uh you'reinhaling the smoke that the the
dab pen is melting the uh thewax.
So this these concentrations,60-90%, deliver massive amounts
of THC instantly.
So rapid tolerance and dopamineblunting happen really quickly
(18:27):
with this.
So if you if you you're using adab pen and you want to really
kind of fry your brain quick,man, that's the way to do it.
Then we have the uh the otherthings that are so much fun.
The synthetic THC.
Um space, uh space, spice, K2,stuff like that.
(18:50):
Full CB1 agonists, a hundredtimes stronger than natural THC,
but it doesn't necessarily showup on a test, and then you're
gonna have other things that arelike way worse because it's so
much stronger than natural THC,seizures, stroke, psychosis.
(19:10):
I have a client who's had uhmultiple strokes caused by
synthetic THC, they ingestedunknowingly, and um they have
permanent brain damage fromthat, they have no short-term,
no long-term memory, and it'svery, very difficult for them to
live.
And as a 20, 24-year-old, um,that's a sad thing because
(19:33):
you're not getting it back.
So they went from fullyfunctioning normal person to
kind of vegged out because ofthat.
Um, I think that person had fourstrokes and was in a coma for
about a month, came out andcould remember very little of
anything and can't retaininformation either, just can't
(19:54):
retain it.
How to get home from down thestreet from their house, kind of
thing.
It's very sad.
So there's there's a lot ofthings that can happen on the
usage, but I wanted to talk alsoabout like what what are the
mental health link here with THCusage?
Because a lot of people areusing it because hey, it's
(20:15):
better than using heroin, orhey, it's just it's relaxing me,
or hey, hey, I you know, it'shelping me sleep.
Okay, but chronic THC usecorrelates with incredibly
higher rates of major depressivedisorder and panic disorder,
which is interesting becausethey're using THC because
they're trying to relieve thesethings, right?
(20:38):
But it causes them, and we knowthat.
We know that from the research.
Um, so depression and anxiety,psychosis.
The meta-analysis um shows dailyhigh potency THC use increases
psychosis risk by five times.
(20:59):
So daily usage of high potencyTHC.
Now, that's not the person who'susing it once a month or once a
week, but somebody who's a wakeand bake person, yeah, they have
five time risk, five times therisk of psychosis.
That's frightening.
Um not sure when you're using itbecause you're treating
(21:23):
depression and anxiety thatyou're feeling, or panic
disorder, how that's gonna helpyou.
The trauma interaction, um, itdampens the amygdala activity.
The that's the part of the brainwhere there's uh emotional um uh
response to threat, right?
Fight, flight, freeze, fawn.
(21:45):
That's the amygdala.
Um short-term arousal, but longterm it reinforces avoidance and
dissociation.
Um you you're not having a truetrauma response process with
that.
So things that are happening toyou, you're not ha it's it's
preventing the true traumaresponse.
(22:06):
You're having an artificialexperience in the amygdala
because it dampens it, it tampsit down, it makes it so that
your amygdala doesn't activate.
And so the the emotional uhemotional arousal um is very
short-term.
In other words, if somebody isdoing something and it's very
traumatic, they're notresponding to it like a normal
(22:30):
person who's not getting highall the time of THC.
But trust me, there, you know,once you stop using that, you're
going to have that response.
And now you're gonna have areally weird process of of
trying to experience past traumawithout having had the initial
response to it.
It makes it very difficult totreat people that have uh
(22:51):
traumatic lives, and now they'recoming off of THC and and they
got to deal with it in today'sworld versus yesterday when you
were experiencing it.
With adolescence, you haveanother problem.
Prefundal and limbic systems,uh, the regions are still
(23:13):
developing in 25.
So when we talk about, oh, youknow, the frontal cortex is not
fully online, well, it's online,it's just not really filtering
information the same becauseit's not really done developing.
This is why we get personalitydisorders to pop up later in
life relative to teenagers.
So uh schizophrenia, psychosis,um, that kind of thing kicks in
(23:38):
later on, right?
But these areas that aredeveloping, when you to when you
expose them to THC, it altersthe white matter connectivity
and the reward sensitivity.
And so you're altering brainfunction um permanently, it's
not temporary, and we know it'spermanent because we've had
enough time to be able to lookat it for 20 years.
(23:59):
We've been looking at this.
So we could look at teenagersthat were using a lot of THC
products and we'd be able todetermine the level of uh
alteration and where they shouldprobably should be.
So I guess all of that to say,I'm not an advocate of use of
(24:20):
THC products, period.
Um, and today's THC products areway different than the ones from
when I was a teenager back inthe 70s.
Um and certainly in the 60s and70s, a different time, I
understand.
But there's a differentconsideration because we keep
pushing up the potency levels.
(24:40):
They keep like the better high,the better high.
So I'm not in favor of that.
And I certainly don't like thatwhen my clients are coming to me
and they're in with um recoveryfor some other drug, uh, heroin
or alcohol, and they come in andthey say, Well, I'm I'm clean,
you know, I'm I'm clean, I'm notusing heroin, and I'm I'm in
(25:01):
recovery, and I'm like, Yeah,but you're using all the time.
And and one of the issues is,and I I'm not it's not just me
saying it, because I haveclients.
Uh, for example, I have aclient, um fentanyl, heroin,
cocaine, uh THC products,alcohol, did it all at a young
(25:24):
age, teenage years, into20-something, then started
getting into recovery and wentto college and had a really hard
time because listening to allthe nonsense that was coming out
of people when they were talkingabout, hey, you know what, uh,
smoking pots not that big of adeal.
Um, I'm I'm in recovery from,you know, I was doing heroin or
I was doing cocaine, and all,you know, it's just it's fine
(25:47):
that I'm I'm doing weed.
And this client that I had whoexperienced that was just
outraged because they said thatthey understood the connection
between the use of a drug and achemical and the impact on your
recovery.
And that person was justhorrified listening to these
(26:07):
people talk about how innocuousand and non-impactful THC
products were.
And this is a person who had oneof the worst addictions I've
encountered in my career, andone of the more successful
recoveries.
And they just couldn't tolerateit, like listening to these
(26:30):
people.
So they start they couldn't goto meetings because every
meeting was like THC is fine aslong as you're not drinking,
you're okay.
That's AA, right?
The NA was the same thing, butit was always the primary drug
of choice they weren't using,but it was fine that they were
using THC products.
Somehow that was fine.
And they and they couldn't standthat idea, and they stopped
going to meetings because of ituntil they were out of college.
(26:53):
Um, and now goes back out of thecollege environment, the kids
who think they know everything,but they just don't look at
facts and science and they don'tlisten to experts.
So what a what do you do?
Well, you know what?
You you you can't be mastered byanything.
(27:14):
And I think that THC ismastering you if you're using
it, um, and you're using itdaily or multiple times a week.
I I you know, part of me islike, hey man, you you wanna you
want to smoke pot, you wanna umuse weed, you wanna uh use THC
(27:35):
products, have at it.
But understand it's a drug andyou're addicted, and it's gonna
be a problem when you're tryingto get off of it.
Now, if it's legal, that's fine.
But guess what?
That doesn't mean you can driveand be high, and you can't be at
work and be high, and employersare gonna test you, and if you
test positive, you're gonna getfired.
(27:56):
THC is a fat-soluble chemical,and so it stays in your fat
cells.
Well, it stays in your fat cellsuntil you express it out.
Well, so that could you could betesting positive for months.
If you're a wake and bake guy,uh it could be months and you're
gonna be testing positive.
So guess what?
(28:16):
You're gonna end up gettingfired.
Uh if you're driving a car andyou're driving erratically and
they do a blood test and theysee that the metabolites are
showing uh a high level ofoutput of THC, even if you
haven't used anything for, youknow, I don't know, two or three
days, you're gonna get poppedfor driving while intoxicated
because you were drivingerratically.
(28:38):
Now, were you drivingerratically because your
steering uh linkage was loose inyour car or because you were
impaired?
It doesn't matter because youtested positive.
The thing I've talked to myfriends who are psychiatrists,
and I'm like, hey, what do youthink about this as a uh a
treatment for uh anxiety orpanic disorder?
(28:58):
Or THC edibles or dab pens orwhatever, what do you think?
And they're like, no, mm-mm,because we have no way of
knowing how much they're using,and that's the problem.
And so I can't I can't uh advisethat.
I've heard this from everysingle psychiatrist I've I've
worked with.
Can't really advise that.
(29:19):
So I, you know, it's likethere's no there's no good way
to treat that.
It's like treating um I'mtreating anxiety by drinking
alcohol.
Well that that's not atreatment, first of all.
Um it's not treating thecondition, it's treating the
symptom.
So if you have anxiety, you havea panic attack, and you're using
a chemical, you're treating thesymptom.
(29:40):
You're not treating the actualcondition.
Think about that when you'reusing.
If you're using recreationallyand and you are the person who
has bought into the 420s and theidea of like it comes from a
plant, understand that so doesalcohol, so does cocaine, so
does heroin.
Uh, fentanyl is a chemical uh uhreplication of of heroin just in
(30:02):
a more intense uh intense formput together in a laboratory
that doesn't make it okay sothese are problems and you're
just kidding yourself if youthink that it's not a problem.
That's like the d the alcoholicwho drinks every day because he
has anxiety Yeah but you'redrinking every day.
(30:22):
What are you doing for theanxiety?
You're just you're treating thesymptom of the anxiety.
What's causing it?
So if you're not out thereactually working on those things
then you're really just pro youknow you're kicking the can down
the road.
And unfortunately with you knowif you're just kicking a bad
decision can down the roadthat's one thing.
When you're kicking a uh achemical you're using a chemical
(30:45):
to kick it down the road thatchemical is going to get you
eventually and it's gonna causeproblems.
And um it pains me because I'veseen many of my clients over the
last I don't know I want to sayfive years report that they've
had psychotic episodes um theone that had the you know
multiple strokes and was in acoma for months a month um and
(31:08):
came out with severe braindamage.
It's just these are not goodthings.
And so yeah it's legal becausepoliticians want to make money
and they see tax revenue thatcomes coming from the usage and
the sales of THC products.
I'm sorry.
Politicians don't make gooddecisions for everybody.
(31:32):
They're making decisions basedon I can figure out a way to
make more money to grow thegovernment or perhaps I'm being
uh contributed to in mycampaigns to give me a very high
paying political job by somelobbyists.
And that's a problem.
Just my two cents on THC.
(31:53):
So the good and the bad it ispossible to heal from this but
you know you gotta get support.
If you have these issues ofanxiety and depression and those
are the two that people come tome with and they say oh yeah I'm
using because of that fine.
How about you get real treatmentfor it and stop screwing around
with like addressing thesymptoms.
(32:14):
You you wouldn't oddly enoughthe biggest advocates for the
use of marijuana because it'squote unquote natural are the
people who refuse to take moodstabilizers and antidepressants.
But yet they don't have aproblem with using a chemical in
the form of THC for the rest oftheir life apparently this none
(32:36):
of that makes sense to me.
So there are better ways.
Those better ways are to gethelp so if you need help please
go to rehab get the help reachout to a counselor go to your
nearest emergency room if youneed to but whatever it is man
get into treatment because beinghigh and strung out and losing
(32:58):
the life is is not the way togo.
If you're protecting youraddiction by losing the life
what are you gaining?
Nonsense but get the help youknow it's it's frustrating when
you're there but you know ifyou're listening to these
podcasts you're already sort ofgetting the help that you're
looking for a little bit butlet's go all the way.
(33:20):
Get clean and sober and stay andstable it's a better live it's a
better life now lift life.
Until then this is Doc Jack yourDixon lifeguard saying see ya
I'm again for Dr.
Addiction Life Guard Placement.
I'm Dr.
Doctor psychology.
License Professional Help for anAddiction Special.
You are suffering fromaddiction, injury, trauma,
whatever it is.
I'm here to help.
You're in search of help.
Try to get your life backtogether.
Join me here at Dr.
(00:21):
Addiction Life Guard, theAddiction Recovery Podcast.
I wanted to be real clear aboutwhat this podcast is intended
for.
(00:41):
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes, but
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
please seek that out.
If you're in dire need of help,you can go to your nearest
emergency room or you can checkinto a rehab center or call a
counselor like me and talk aboutyour problems and work through
(01:02):
them.
But don't rely on a podcast tobe that form of help.
It's not.
It's just a podcast.
It's for entertainment andinformation only.
So let's keep it in that light,alright?
Have a good time, learnsomething, and then get the real
help that you need from aprofessional.
(01:29):
You know, THC today isn't thesame as what your parents or
more likely your grandparentsused to call pot.
We, you know, it's weed.
Uh, but what used to be at abouta two to four percent THC level
plant has turned into a chemicalconcentrate reaching 90%
(01:51):
potency.
Um that's way different than itused to be.
That's not a mild buzz, that's aneurochemical storm coming at
you.
And that's what I wanted to talkabout today was the much debated
uh topic of like, what are youwhat are we calling THC uh stuff
today and why it is so sodangerous and deadly and uh
(02:16):
causing so many problems.
So let's let's kind of set thisup with an understanding of kind
of what we're talking about.
So THC is the chemical compound,it's the primary psychoactive
compound in in cannabis plants.
It binds to the CB1 receptors inthe brain and the CB2 receptors
(02:36):
in the immune system.
Both.
And so both parts of thatendocinoidal, um,
endocannaboidal system, excuseme, the C E C S, it regulates
pain, mood, appetite, memory,um, and that's that's the effect
that it has when you're gettinghigh.
(02:56):
It's affecting those things,right?
So you're feeling differentabout things.
You get, you know, the effectsof it.
Um I'm I got the munchies, Ifeel kind of mellowed out, I'm
not feeling pain, my memory iskind of disappearing on me.
So the ECS naturally uses that,so this cannabid system that we
have internally, which regulatesmood, pain, appetite memory, the
(03:20):
e that's the ECS, it itnaturally uses internal
cannabides.
So it uses these internalcannabides, cannab cannibinoids,
cannabinoids, to maintain thatbalance of of the th mood, pain,
appetite, memory.
(03:41):
When you introduce THCexternally, you're smoking it,
you're ingesting it, itoveractivates the ECS.
So it disrupts normalregulation.
And so you become more of, youknow, whatever.
So you're that's when the themood and the appetite and the
memory and the pain and all ofthat gets all kind of thrown out
(04:03):
of whack because you're throwingoff the internal receptors,
neuroreceptors that we have,because you're introducing more
of that THC than we have in ourbodies, and we have THC in our
bodies naturally.
So but the bigger problem is notthat, it's the the change in the
THC levels.
That's the thing that isbecoming so problematic.
(04:26):
So in the 1960s and 70s, theaverage uh cannabis um it was
two to four percent THC, and sovery low potency.
In the 1990s, they had figuredout how to get the potency up in
that THC level of the plants, sothe strains were averaging about
(04:50):
six percent.
In the 2020s, vape oils, dabs,shatter, they these these
potency levels are reachingsixty and ninety percent.
And that's where the problemlies, is in the increase in the
levels because we're getting awhole different thing happening.
(05:12):
So cannabis use disorder, um,it's defined in our diagnostic
statistical manual, the DSM, 5TR.
Um, it's a pattern of cannabisuse causing clinically
significant impairment ordistress, and it meets there's
11 criteria, you've got to meetuh two or more within 12 months.
(05:36):
Tolerance, withdrawal,unsuccessful attempts to cut
down, cravings, and neglect ofobligations and uh different
things like that.
It's a it's the typical um uhaddiction kind of diagnostic
criteria we use, but it's gotit's two out of the eleven,
which is not many compared tosome of the other drugs.
So the and that's what we use toto diagnose.
(05:58):
So we're defining it byaddiction or abuse, right?
So the impact on you as aperson.
So the addiction mechanismthat's going on there, THC
triggers dopamine, it releasesin the mesolimbic reward
pathway, so it's triggering thisdopamine release, and the
(06:19):
repeated use desensitizes thosedopamine receptors.
So it produces a tolerance and aneed for higher amounts of the
THC.
Um when you're getting highlevels to begin with, your
tolerance is going to becompeting against, so to speak,
the amount of the levels of theTHC in the products that you're
(06:40):
using.
Um withdrawal.
The withdrawal symptoms, hugeproblem there.
Irritability, sleep disturbance,decreased appetite, anxiety,
vivid dreams when you'rewithdrawing.
Um two to three days after youstopped.
(07:01):
Might go as long as seven.
I've heard as long as ten.
Some of my clients arecomplaining about these things
uh going on and on, and sleepdisturbance actually can go on
for a year after you stopped.
Um, and I'm gonna go intoreasons why in a little bit.
Um but so the the the brain andthe body on THC, what what
(07:22):
happens to that?
Now, again, understand, I mean,I'm competing against another uh
voice that people hear, which isit's natural, it's a plant-based
thing, and so hey, what's thebig deal?
You know, well, so is heroin, sois hash, so is cocaine.
(07:43):
Uh other drugs are out therethat are are horribly bad.
And it's funny because thedefense of it's a natural
product, you would never applythat to cocaine.
You would never apply that to umheroin.
Well, it's it comes from poppyseeds.
Uh cocaine comes from the cocaplant.
You you would not associate thatwith, hey, it's natural.
(08:06):
It's a plant.
What's the big deal?
I never have heard that as adefense for the usage of those
drugs, but I do hear it withmarijuana.
And that's the old, I think it'sthe old hippie, you know, cheech
and chong hippie thing of like,hey man, it's just a plant.
What's the big deal?
Well, so is alcohol, and so isheroin, and so is cocaine, and
(08:29):
they're problems.
They're huge problems.
And nobody ever disagrees withme on that one.
But how does what happens to thebrain and the body when you're
on THC products?
Well, here's part of the issue.
We we couldn't study THC legallyin in our country, in the United
States, because it was a bannedsubstance.
So you couldn't do laboratoryexperience experiments, you
(08:52):
couldn't um do double blindexperiments, you couldn't do any
any t you know, actual clinicalresearch.
You could only ask, you know, ifyou asked somebody, hey, are you
using this?
Yes, no.
But we had no idea how much theywere using.
We couldn't, you know, wecouldn't go into that level of
of research.
But when they started legalizingit, we could.
In Colorado, that was a gift toscience community because now we
(09:13):
can verify what we had thoughtall along.
And it was actually worse thanwe thought.
But so here, let me just go oversome of the problems that that
happened in the body and thebrain with THC.
Let's go through them point bypoint.
Cognitive impact, short-termmemory impairments, slow
processing speed, difficultywith um uh executive
(09:36):
functioning, making decisions,it's uh frontal cortex
functioning, cognitive impact,neuroimaging.
Um, when you take a when youtake a an fMRI um and it shows
reduced activity in theprefrontal cortex in the
hippocampus, these aresignificant parts of our brain
that really make us who we areas individuals.
(09:58):
So when you when you've gotsomebody who's using THC
products and uh you do an fMRIneural imaging, you can see that
there is greatly reducedactivity in that prefrontal
cortex in the hippocampus area.
And so then that's going toaffect decision making and who
you who you are.
Like your personality is rightthere in the front of your
(10:19):
brain.
Motivational effects, um thatthat reduced uh reduced response
leads to anti-motivationalsyndrome.
That's what we call it.
Loss of drive, goal-directedbehavior.
I have many clients that come inhere who are um using THC
regularly and and ongoing, andthey just they don't they're not
(10:45):
there's no drive.
There's no drive there.
The the psychiatric risk, um, itcan induce acute psychosis and
exacerbated latentschizophrenia.
We know this, we've known thisfor a while.
Um, but the problem, you know,when they were studying that,
they started studying that backin 2002, 2003, but the level of
(11:09):
psychosis is is frightening.
Um, and it's with lower andlower age groups.
I have clients who are teenagerswho are I get parents that are
calling me while they're takingtheir kid who's 15, 16, 17 years
old, and they're having apsychotic break in the car on
the way to the emergency room,and the parent has absolutely no
(11:30):
idea what's going on.
And the only thing that shows upon a talk screen at the hospital
is THC because that's what theyused.
And they report this to me.
They'll say, I all I did wasjust, you know, I I ate some
edibles.
Um and you know, or I I wasusing my dab pen.
And I I I don't know whathappened.
(11:51):
It was like they just went intothe psychotic break, and that's
the only thing they were using.
Um sleep disruption.
Sleep disruption is a hugeproblem.
Um well, uh, let me let me goback.
I because I I really want toemphasize this schizophrenia,
latent schizophrenia, later thanuh normal.
(12:16):
So schizophrenia normally startsshowing up at between 18 and 25.
And um there's a there's anthere's a risk increase of uh,
especially if you have a familyhistory of psychosis, of uh let
me see if I can remember theresearch.
(12:36):
It was uh five times.
Five times the amount of risk,especially with those with a
family of psychosis, if you'reusing THC products.
Five times.
The sleep disruption thing,that's a huge problem.
Um I I have reports of clientswho you know they initially
(12:57):
thought they were using uh THCproducts to help them go to
sleep, only to find out thatit's it's just making it worse
and they're confused, you know.
Um and the sleep disturbance umhas a has another side to it.
So you stop using THC products,maybe you go to a rehab and
you've been using your ediblesor dabs or doing shatter or
(13:21):
whatever, and you get there andyou can't sleep.
And you know, you were doingother drugs, maybe you're
drinking, maybe you're in therefor like drugs and alcohol, or
or maybe multiple drugs.
You got cocaine or heroin,fentanyl, something, and you're
using THC products on top ofthat, and you're using a lot of
it.
Withdrawal, you have thishorrible rebound dream intensity
(13:44):
thing that comes up.
And um that's that's one of theproblems with the sleep
disruption is the the dreams,you know, you wake up, you're
having a horrible dream,nightmare, it's too intense, and
just waking up.
Now you're you know, you gothrough a couple of days of
that, and then you're afraid togo to sleep.
So it's a huge problem.
In addition to the up to a yearof sleep disturbance, just
(14:07):
either waking up in the middleof the night or having a hard
time going to sleep that goesthrough withdrawal that lasts
seems to be the thing that laststhe longest.
So there's a huge impact thatuse of THC has on people, and
they would like to ignore it,and many of them do, but that's
just the reality (14:25):
psychosis, latent schizophrenia, um, memory
problems, impairment.
Now remember, I'm not talkingabout 1960s, 1970s,
stereotypical hippie who's justsmoking a joint and having a
good time, and it's not a bigproblem.
We didn't see any of thisbefore.
Now, with with the new forms ofTHC, we're seeing it, and we're
(14:47):
seeing it in the worst formspossible.
So that's because there's achange.
So what do we have?
We've got we got new things inin THC: vapes, edibles, dabs.
It's a huge change in how you'reingesting it and the amount that
you're getting, the uptake ofit, how fast it occurs, uh, in
some instances the delay of andthen a quick uptake.
(15:10):
So let me explain this.
Uh, especially if you'relistening to this and you don't
really understand uh much aboutTHC.
Perhaps you're not using it.
Maybe your family member who'slistening to this and trying to
figure this out.
So you got oils, vape oils.
Um they contain all kinds ofsolvents, residues, synthetic
cutting agents that are in it.
So the vape oils are what you'regetting in um when you're vaping
(15:34):
the vape pen.
They had to make it liquid,right?
So they had to have this uhsolvent to get it there, and
then they have to cut it.
So they're doing differentthings like vitamin T vitamin E,
acetate, which is linked to um EV A L I, lung injury, evali lung
injury.
(15:55):
Sometimes we don't even knowwhat is in that.
Uh there's no requirement tolist every single thing in that
vape pen.
And and even if they do, I mean,we're finding that it's just,
you know, it's out there.
One of my clients went to aconvenience store, um, and he is
a THC addict who's in recovery,and he walked into a convenience
store, and there was uh dab pensthat had 50,000 units of THC in
(16:19):
the dab pen, in a single dabpen.
And he was shocked when he sawthat.
He was like, Man, if I pick thatup, I'd I could just get as high
as a kite just so quick, andit's 50,000 units um of THC.
Wow.
Um, vape oils are, you know, youseriously, it could be just a
(16:40):
vape pen that has nothing in it,or it has a vape oil uh or a uh
THC oil in it, and if you're uhseen using it, you're not
they're not nobody's gonna know.
They can't smell it.
They don't know it's any othervape, it could be anything other
any other kind of vape oil.
Grape vape oil, you know, withTHC in it.
Edibles.
(17:00):
Edibles, here's another thing.
Okay, so the the clients that Ihave that use THC products, they
run into trouble with edibles.
Edibles have a delayed onset,one to two hours.
Uh once you've once you'veconsumed it.
It takes one to two hours beforeit hits you.
And so uh a lot of times what Isee is people using edibles,
(17:24):
they don't feel like they'regetting high, so they eat more,
they eat more.
Well, now you've wayoverconsumed, or you have no
real idea about how much you'reconsuming, so you take too much,
but it's going to be a couple ofhours perhaps before you'd even
know.
It can cause panic attacks,vomiting, hallucinations because
(17:46):
the THC, it's a delayed onset,and if you're overconsuming, you
end up with THC toxicity, whichreally results in the things I'm
talking about, the panic and theum the vomiting, the
hallucinations, the psychosistype things.
Dab pens.
Um little pen, little, it's likea little heated metal tip end
(18:07):
pen, and you're uh you'reinhaling the smoke that the the
dab pen is melting the uh thewax.
So this these concentrations,60-90%, deliver massive amounts
of THC instantly.
So rapid tolerance and dopamineblunting happen really quickly
(18:27):
with this.
So if you if you you're using adab pen and you want to really
kind of fry your brain quick,man, that's the way to do it.
Then we have the uh the otherthings that are so much fun.
The synthetic THC.
Um space, uh space, spice, K2,stuff like that.
(18:50):
Full CB1 agonists, a hundredtimes stronger than natural THC,
but it doesn't necessarily showup on a test, and then you're
gonna have other things that arelike way worse because it's so
much stronger than natural THC,seizures, stroke, psychosis.
(19:10):
I have a client who's had uhmultiple strokes caused by
synthetic THC, they ingestedunknowingly, and um they have
permanent brain damage fromthat, they have no short-term,
no long-term memory, and it'svery, very difficult for them to
live.
And as a 20, 24-year-old, um,that's a sad thing because
(19:33):
you're not getting it back.
So they went from fullyfunctioning normal person to
kind of vegged out because ofthat.
Um, I think that person had fourstrokes and was in a coma for
about a month, came out andcould remember very little of
anything and can't retaininformation either, just can't
(19:54):
retain it.
How to get home from down thestreet from their house, kind of
thing.
It's very sad.
So there's there's a lot ofthings that can happen on the
usage, but I wanted to talk alsoabout like what what are the
mental health link here with THCusage?
Because a lot of people areusing it because hey, it's
(20:15):
better than using heroin, orhey, it's just it's relaxing me,
or hey, hey, I you know, it'shelping me sleep.
Okay, but chronic THC usecorrelates with incredibly
higher rates of major depressivedisorder and panic disorder,
which is interesting becausethey're using THC because
they're trying to relieve thesethings, right?
(20:38):
But it causes them, and we knowthat.
We know that from the research.
Um, so depression and anxiety,psychosis.
The meta-analysis um shows dailyhigh potency THC use increases
psychosis risk by five times.
(20:59):
So daily usage of high potencyTHC.
Now, that's not the person who'susing it once a month or once a
week, but somebody who's a wakeand bake person, yeah, they have
five time risk, five times therisk of psychosis.
That's frightening.
Um not sure when you're using itbecause you're treating
(21:23):
depression and anxiety thatyou're feeling, or panic
disorder, how that's gonna helpyou.
The trauma interaction, um, itdampens the amygdala activity.
The that's the part of the brainwhere there's uh emotional um uh
response to threat, right?
Fight, flight, freeze, fawn.
(21:45):
That's the amygdala.
Um short-term arousal, but longterm it reinforces avoidance and
dissociation.
Um you you're not having a truetrauma response process with
that.
So things that are happening toyou, you're not ha it's it's
preventing the true traumaresponse.
(22:06):
You're having an artificialexperience in the amygdala
because it dampens it, it tampsit down, it makes it so that
your amygdala doesn't activate.
And so the the emotional uhemotional arousal um is very
short-term.
In other words, if somebody isdoing something and it's very
traumatic, they're notresponding to it like a normal
(22:30):
person who's not getting highall the time of THC.
But trust me, there, you know,once you stop using that, you're
going to have that response.
And now you're gonna have areally weird process of of
trying to experience past traumawithout having had the initial
response to it.
It makes it very difficult totreat people that have uh
(22:51):
traumatic lives, and now they'recoming off of THC and and they
got to deal with it in today'sworld versus yesterday when you
were experiencing it.
With adolescence, you haveanother problem.
Prefundal and limbic systems,uh, the regions are still
(23:13):
developing in 25.
So when we talk about, oh, youknow, the frontal cortex is not
fully online, well, it's online,it's just not really filtering
information the same becauseit's not really done developing.
This is why we get personalitydisorders to pop up later in
life relative to teenagers.
So uh schizophrenia, psychosis,um, that kind of thing kicks in
(23:38):
later on, right?
But these areas that aredeveloping, when you to when you
expose them to THC, it altersthe white matter connectivity
and the reward sensitivity.
And so you're altering brainfunction um permanently, it's
not temporary, and we know it'spermanent because we've had
enough time to be able to lookat it for 20 years.
(23:59):
We've been looking at this.
So we could look at teenagersthat were using a lot of THC
products and we'd be able todetermine the level of uh
alteration and where they shouldprobably should be.
So I guess all of that to say,I'm not an advocate of use of
(24:20):
THC products, period.
Um, and today's THC products areway different than the ones from
when I was a teenager back inthe 70s.
Um and certainly in the 60s and70s, a different time, I
understand.
But there's a differentconsideration because we keep
pushing up the potency levels.
(24:40):
They keep like the better high,the better high.
So I'm not in favor of that.
And I certainly don't like thatwhen my clients are coming to me
and they're in with um recoveryfor some other drug, uh, heroin
or alcohol, and they come in andthey say, Well, I'm I'm clean,
you know, I'm I'm clean, I'm notusing heroin, and I'm I'm in
(25:01):
recovery, and I'm like, Yeah,but you're using all the time.
And and one of the issues is,and I I'm not it's not just me
saying it, because I haveclients.
Uh, for example, I have aclient, um fentanyl, heroin,
cocaine, uh THC products,alcohol, did it all at a young
(25:24):
age, teenage years, into20-something, then started
getting into recovery and wentto college and had a really hard
time because listening to allthe nonsense that was coming out
of people when they were talkingabout, hey, you know what, uh,
smoking pots not that big of adeal.
Um, I'm I'm in recovery from,you know, I was doing heroin or
I was doing cocaine, and all,you know, it's just it's fine
(25:47):
that I'm I'm doing weed.
And this client that I had whoexperienced that was just
outraged because they said thatthey understood the connection
between the use of a drug and achemical and the impact on your
recovery.
And that person was justhorrified listening to these
(26:07):
people talk about how innocuousand and non-impactful THC
products were.
And this is a person who had oneof the worst addictions I've
encountered in my career, andone of the more successful
recoveries.
And they just couldn't tolerateit, like listening to these
(26:30):
people.
So they start they couldn't goto meetings because every
meeting was like THC is fine aslong as you're not drinking,
you're okay.
That's AA, right?
The NA was the same thing, butit was always the primary drug
of choice they weren't using,but it was fine that they were
using THC products.
Somehow that was fine.
And they and they couldn't standthat idea, and they stopped
going to meetings because of ituntil they were out of college.
(26:53):
Um, and now goes back out of thecollege environment, the kids
who think they know everything,but they just don't look at
facts and science and they don'tlisten to experts.
So what a what do you do?
Well, you know what?
You you you can't be mastered byanything.
(27:14):
And I think that THC ismastering you if you're using
it, um, and you're using itdaily or multiple times a week.
I I you know, part of me islike, hey man, you you wanna you
want to smoke pot, you wanna umuse weed, you wanna uh use THC
(27:35):
products, have at it.
But understand it's a drug andyou're addicted, and it's gonna
be a problem when you're tryingto get off of it.
Now, if it's legal, that's fine.
But guess what?
That doesn't mean you can driveand be high, and you can't be at
work and be high, and employersare gonna test you, and if you
test positive, you're gonna getfired.
(27:56):
THC is a fat-soluble chemical,and so it stays in your fat
cells.
Well, it stays in your fat cellsuntil you express it out.
Well, so that could you could betesting positive for months.
If you're a wake and bake guy,uh it could be months and you're
gonna be testing positive.
So guess what?
(28:16):
You're gonna end up gettingfired.
Uh if you're driving a car andyou're driving erratically and
they do a blood test and theysee that the metabolites are
showing uh a high level ofoutput of THC, even if you
haven't used anything for, youknow, I don't know, two or three
days, you're gonna get poppedfor driving while intoxicated
because you were drivingerratically.
(28:38):
Now, were you drivingerratically because your
steering uh linkage was loose inyour car or because you were
impaired?
It doesn't matter because youtested positive.
The thing I've talked to myfriends who are psychiatrists,
and I'm like, hey, what do youthink about this as a uh a
treatment for uh anxiety orpanic disorder?
(28:58):
Or THC edibles or dab pens orwhatever, what do you think?
And they're like, no, mm-mm,because we have no way of
knowing how much they're using,and that's the problem.
And so I can't I can't uh advisethat.
I've heard this from everysingle psychiatrist I've I've
worked with.
Can't really advise that.
(29:19):
So I, you know, it's likethere's no there's no good way
to treat that.
It's like treating um I'mtreating anxiety by drinking
alcohol.
Well that that's not atreatment, first of all.
Um it's not treating thecondition, it's treating the
symptom.
So if you have anxiety, you havea panic attack, and you're using
a chemical, you're treating thesymptom.
(29:40):
You're not treating the actualcondition.
Think about that when you'reusing.
If you're using recreationallyand and you are the person who
has bought into the 420s and theidea of like it comes from a
plant, understand that so doesalcohol, so does cocaine, so
does heroin.
Uh, fentanyl is a chemical uh uhreplication of of heroin just in
(30:02):
a more intense uh intense formput together in a laboratory
that doesn't make it okay sothese are problems and you're
just kidding yourself if youthink that it's not a problem.
That's like the d the alcoholicwho drinks every day because he
has anxiety Yeah but you'redrinking every day.
(30:22):
What are you doing for theanxiety?
You're just you're treating thesymptom of the anxiety.
What's causing it?
So if you're not out thereactually working on those things
then you're really just pro youknow you're kicking the can down
the road.
And unfortunately with you knowif you're just kicking a bad
decision can down the roadthat's one thing.
When you're kicking a uh achemical you're using a chemical
(30:45):
to kick it down the road thatchemical is going to get you
eventually and it's gonna causeproblems.
And um it pains me because I'veseen many of my clients over the
last I don't know I want to sayfive years report that they've
had psychotic episodes um theone that had the you know
multiple strokes and was in acoma for months a month um and
(31:08):
came out with severe braindamage.
It's just these are not goodthings.
And so yeah it's legal becausepoliticians want to make money
and they see tax revenue thatcomes coming from the usage and
the sales of THC products.
I'm sorry.
Politicians don't make gooddecisions for everybody.
(31:32):
They're making decisions basedon I can figure out a way to
make more money to grow thegovernment or perhaps I'm being
uh contributed to in mycampaigns to give me a very high
paying political job by somelobbyists.
And that's a problem.
Just my two cents on THC.
(31:53):
So the good and the bad it ispossible to heal from this but
you know you gotta get support.
If you have these issues ofanxiety and depression and those
are the two that people come tome with and they say oh yeah I'm
using because of that fine.
How about you get real treatmentfor it and stop screwing around
with like addressing thesymptoms.
(32:14):
You you wouldn't oddly enoughthe biggest advocates for the
use of marijuana because it'squote unquote natural are the
people who refuse to take moodstabilizers and antidepressants.
But yet they don't have aproblem with using a chemical in
the form of THC for the rest oftheir life apparently this none
(32:36):
of that makes sense to me.
So there are better ways.
Those better ways are to gethelp so if you need help please
go to rehab get the help reachout to a counselor go to your
nearest emergency room if youneed to but whatever it is man
get into treatment because beinghigh and strung out and losing
(32:58):
the life is is not the way togo.
If you're protecting youraddiction by losing the life
what are you gaining?
Nonsense but get the help youknow it's it's frustrating when
you're there but you know ifyou're listening to these
podcasts you're already sort ofgetting the help that you're
looking for a little bit butlet's go all the way.
(33:20):
Get clean and sober and stay andstable it's a better live it's a
better life now lift life.
Until then this is Doc Jack yourDixon lifeguard saying see ya
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