The Trauma Response Trifecta

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There are three areas of us that get affected by trauma. Do you know that this is happening? 

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
It's time again for Doc Jock, your addiction
lifeguard podcast.
I am Dr.
Jock DeBerker, a psychologist,licensed professional counselor,
and addiction specialist.
If you are suffering fromaddiction, misery, trauma,
whatever it is, I'm here tohelp.
If you're in search of help totry to get your life back
together, join me here at DocJock, your addiction lifeguard,

(00:22):
the addiction recovery podcast.
I wanted to be real clear aboutwhat this podcast is intended
for.
It is intended for entertainmentand informational purposes but

(00:45):
not considered help.
If you actually need real helpand you're in need of help,
Please seek that out.
If you're in dire need of help,you can go to your nearest
emergency room or you can checkinto a rehab center or call a
counselor like me and talk aboutyour problems and work through
them.
But don't rely on a podcast tobe that form of help.

(01:06):
It's not.
It's just a podcast.
It's for entertainment andinformation only.
So let's keep it in that light.
All right.
Have a good time.
Learn something and then get thereal help that you need from a
professional.
What happens when somebody isexperiencing feelings of

(01:33):
relapse.
In other words, their body issignaling there's a sensation
that they're uncomfortable with,and it causes them to have this
desire to use again.
You know, we know throughneuroscience that there's a
connection between theintellect, the emotion, and the
body.
And there's technical terms forit.

(01:54):
I It's interesting that theydon't really differentiate
between physical feeling andemotional feeling.
But the sensation of fear,because there is a neurological
response that's way morecomplicated than most people
would understand or evenbelieve.

(02:17):
But the sensation of the feelingof fear or discomfort can happen
either in the body first andthen the brain and the emotions
and the intellect, or it canhappen the other way.
So top down or bottom up.
And when somebody isuncomfortable and they are a
traumatized person and they haveaddiction and that's their way

(02:38):
of coping with it, what they'redoing is they're trying to shut
down all those feelings that aredriving these horrible
experiences that they have.
And so when I'm dealing with aclient, for example, and they're
sitting in my office and they'retalking about things, they're
talking about what they'reafraid of, they start to have, I
can see a physical change,right?
They start to have a physicalchange when they're going into

(02:59):
the description of that fear orthe discomfort or the anger.
And as I'm observing them, theirbreathing changes, their pace of
talking changes.
You can see that their bloodpressure perhaps is going up or
going down.
I can see it, their face isgetting red or maybe they're
getting, you know, that flushedkind of or the white kind of

(03:25):
pale look about them.
They'll shake.
There's a lot of, you know,parasympathetic activity, the
shaking of the hands.
They lack the ability to controltheir breathing.
You can see muscle tension.
You can see a lot of fidgeting,movement.
They will move sometimes towardsa kind of a fetal curled

(03:46):
position in the chair.
They start to draw inward,self-hugging kind of behaviors.
Sometimes they'll begin theself-soothing behaviors, the
rocking in place and thatcurling fetal type movement.
position they'll get into in achair.
That's a self-soothing thing.
The hugging or the movementsometimes is to dissipate that

(04:08):
feeling.
Depending on the response theyhave is the fight, flight,
freeze, or fawn response.
They might be those movementsthat look like they're wanting
to run away or preparing tosomething, right?
So there's a whole lot ofdifferent responses they have.
When the person isuncomfortable, and in my

(04:28):
practice as a psychologist, whatI'm doing is I'm having them
work through the issues of theirtrauma, and so those feelings of
discomfort many, many times aremanifested physically.
They will lose the ability todescribe what's going on in
their head.
So asking them and expectingresponses that perhaps make

(04:52):
sense.
They're not speaking in fullsentences or they're giving just
flashes of things that are intheir head.
It's not that they're relivingnecessarily the event that
happened.
perhaps is being talked about.
But what they're doing isthey're reliving the feeling
attached to the event.
And so they'll lose the abilityto accurately or coherently

(05:12):
articulate and speak withwhatever it is that's going on
in their head.
As a practitioner, watching theexperience of that is both
helpful and disturbing.
You're seeing somebody that's inextreme distress.
And if you have the ability toto understand what it is that's

(05:36):
going on with them.
Because you know their history,hopefully.
As a therapist, I would.
But what do you do with that?
And what is that?
What is it that's going on?
Is there some form of help theycan get when they're like that?
Yeah, being in another person'spresence when they're there.

(05:57):
But certainly when they'resharing it, it's perhaps, in my
experience, something thatPeople generally don't get an
opportunity to do.
And so it takes the power awayfrom it.
You know, when we're workingwith combat vets, for example,
the technique of the reframingand the exposure.

(06:20):
So what they're doing is they'rerepeating the trauma.
So they're just constantlyrepeating the same traumatic
story over and over again.
And helping the person who'ssuffering from that level of
trauma, like in a combatsituation.
So you desensitize to it.
You've been overly sensitizedbecause it's in your head and it
doesn't ever come out.
You never put words to it.

(06:40):
It has that level of powerbecause of that that becomes so
disruptive and destructive tothe person.
But it's only in their head.
So the exposure to it, theexposure to the story...
And that's one of the techniquesthat can be used.
But being in a person's presenceand being able to express

(07:05):
emotion that you feel whenyou're feeling uncomfortable,
that expression of emotion, wedo that with EMDR.
When we're working with EMDR,eye movement processing and
desensitization, what you'redoing is you're allowing the
person to be in that memory Andthen be able to put words to it.

(07:26):
And what's interesting with EMDRis that there's not, you know,
it's not talk therapy.
You're not inquiring too muchinto the person's understanding
of what is happening.
You're just asking them todescribe it.
And then there's a series ofquestions, and it's very
scripted.
We all, you know, when we'redoing EMDR, we're using a form.
And it's the same questionsabout, you know, Well, what is

(07:48):
it that bothers you about that?
How do you see that?
How do you see yourself?
What does that mean to you?
And how would you like it to beseen?
How would you like to feel aboutthat?
To reframe, right?
So it's a reframing process,which is, you know, similar to
the exposure therapy.
You're exposing the story to thelight of day and then trying to

(08:09):
reframe it in a way that is notemotionally as damaging to you.
Seeing it for what it is.
That's kind of like the...
the way I would describe it,rather than the monster that
you've allowed it to turn intobecause you keep it bottled up
inside.
So trying to figure out ways tohelp somebody who has a high

(08:30):
degree of trauma can be acomplex and complicated process.
All the addicts that I have,they all have severe trauma, and
primarily in their childhood,but they all have trauma.
And getting to the point whereyou're able to experience that

(08:50):
in a way that's not destructiveto you as the trauma victim
because it's in your history,but also not let it interfere
and intrude on today and damagerelationships you have.
The things that trauma victimshave that are these points of
difficulty, if you will, are thedifficulty of being able to

(09:17):
trust others.
That's a huge one.
And if you have a high degree oftrauma in your life, trust of
others when you have been abusedand traumatized by other people
is a very difficult one.
I was watching an old episode ofa TV show, and this person on

(09:37):
the TV show was a policeofficer, and he had some kind of
amnesia.
He'd hit his head during anincident, and he'd been attacked
as a police officer, but hecouldn't recall what was going
on.
He had no memory of it.
And they were going back to thescene where the crime occurred
that he couldn't remember.

(09:58):
and there was a car thatbackfired and he immediately
jumped for cover and the otherpolice officers were kind of
standing there like what is hedoing and it was a demonstration
although fictionalized but itwas a demonstration of the ptsd
type reaction of the unknownresponse to something that is a
stimulus and conditioned in theenvironment but the brain could

(10:20):
not remember because of thetrauma because of a concussion
But he still, he was in theplace where the attack occurred.
And so for him, he wasexperiencing the attack, but he
couldn't remember it, right?
But there was a part of hisbrain that did.
That's what they were implying.
And that's kind of what happenswith people who are experiencing
through the retelling of astory.

(10:43):
They are in a small sense, theyare being re-traumatized a bit
because it's bringing up theemotion.
But the bringing up of thatemotion in a safe environment
where they can feel andexperience the acceptance and
the support and care of anotherhuman being rather than in front
of the abuser, it's a healingprocess.

(11:05):
So you're making the realitysomething that is just a memory.
It's not actively going on.
So getting into a place whereyou can heal from the trauma,
And so it's like, well, whatdoes healing from trauma mean?
It doesn't mean getting rid ofthe memory.

(11:26):
It's always going to be there.
But it's getting to a pointwhere that memory doesn't harm
you.
However, I'm going to kind ofpreface that with the idea that
given enough of a stimulus,you're going to perhaps be
re-traumatized if the memory isjust too strong.

(11:48):
But it's recognizing when it'shappening so you can ease off of
it.
In other words, you can backaway from the situation, the
description, the people,whatever's happening that's
retraumatizing you.
I had an occasion to be sittingat a table with a bunch of
different people.
I ride motorcycles, so we hadridden somewhere, and there were

(12:13):
about eight of us, and we werejust going to eat lunch and then
get on our bikes and continue onour ride.
So they didn't know me.
This was the first time I'd beenwith them.
And they were all, you know,approximately my age or a little
bit older at the time.
I think I was in my late 40s.
I was actually early 50s.
And two of them or three of themidentified themselves as being

(12:34):
people who were former military.
So that conversation came up.
And there are some that weren'tformer military, but the ones
that were.
And I, you know, I just asked acouple questions.
You know, were you in combat or,you know, were you just
stationed here in the U.S.
or, you know, whatever yourbillet was.
And a couple of them said, yeah,you know, I was in Iraq and

(12:55):
another one was, I think, inAfghanistan.
And they asked me what I do.
And so I said, oh, well, youknow, I'm a psychologist and I
specialize in treatingaddiction, which is for me, is
not treating addiction, it'streating trauma, but they just,
they happen to be using drugs oralcohol as a coping mechanism.
And I'm like, oh, wow, so youdeal with trauma victims.

(13:16):
I said, yeah.
I said, you know, I deal withpeople that work for the
government, former military,things like that.
And so the conversation wasevolving around that idea.
And at one point, somebody inthe group was asking one of the
guys, well, so where where wereyou stationed you know and do

(13:38):
you think that affected you andso he started briefly talking
about it but he was able torecognize that he was starting
to get re-triggered uh in the inhis trauma and i could see
because i'm trained in this buti could see him starting to lose
time and place so he wasstarting to disconnect from the
conversation and Uh, it didn'ttake long for that to happen

(14:03):
actually.
And, um, I, I was, I'd stoppedtalking at that point and, and
he said, as he's talking, hegoes, you know, can we change
the conversation?
Cause I'm starting to get kindof triggered here.
I'm starting to, to feel it.
And I, I, yeah, you can see it.
I mean, he, I could see thechanging in the gaze, the
breathing.

(14:24):
Actually, his tone, it startedto turn more flat.
But he was having all the signsof starting to regress into a
PTSD state.
And so we did.
We changed the conversation andhe was fine.
But it doesn't take muchsometimes to get to that place.
It doesn't mean that you'regoing to every time.

(14:44):
And certainly his example– and Idid not talk to him afterwards
to find out exactly what wasgoing on with him that caused
him to– what his past showedwith that that would– he
experienced that would rise tothat level of PTSD.
But then again, I didn't need tobecause I know why and I– heard

(15:06):
those stories a hundred times umbut he definitely was having
that experience and he willalways have the memory of
whatever transpired while he wasin the military but the the
feelings that are attached to itare the things that drive the
the body the functional uhchanges and but it's also the

(15:30):
emotional change.
And so I think it's important ifyou have trauma and you're
successfully healing from it,but it's important to recognize
when you are getting activated,when those memories are starting
to activate and you're startingto lose time and place.
And he did a very good job ofcalling himself out for that and

(15:51):
to putting, trying to make anattempt to redirect the
conversation away from it, whichI, gladly was able to do for him
but it's that's part of it soyou're not it's not like you're
going to forget because youdon't it's your memory um you
know if you were extremelytraumatized you may have uh

(16:12):
repressed memories sure and thatis a thing but you know to think
that you're going to be healedfrom trauma and then you're not
ever going to have any kind oflike recall of the events.
No, that's not true.
It's whether or not those eventscan come back from the past and
further traumatize you.

(16:34):
Yeah, that could happen.
The goal of trauma treatment isto get you to be able to be
functional and engage ineveryday life and not be
burdened by the things that aretraumatic.
I've had clients in the past whoThey really struggle.
They are just locked in on thistraumatic time period and they

(16:55):
can't get out of it.
But I often wonder when they'reworking with a therapist, and
they say they're working with atherapist, I often wonder how
effective that therapy is.
To me, it seems like that's atherapist that they're working
with who perhaps doesn't reallyunderstand trauma.

(17:15):
They understand what a traumaticevent is, but they really don't
know what to do with somebodywho has severe trauma.
They don't know how to treat it.
They don't know what to do todirect it or to engage in it.
And I've had people who haveseen therapists who heard the
client who is now my client,describe a severe traumatic

(17:38):
event in their childhood andjust kind of like note it, maybe
write it on their little chartthat they have in their hands
and say, well, that must havebeen really awful for you as a
kid to experience that.
And then they pivot and go toanother topic because they just
don't know what to do with that.
um and and if that is theexperience you've had in in

(17:59):
therapy and you really need towork on trauma you need to find
another therapist franklybecause that's not a person
who's comfortable with traumathey're not a person as a
therapist that's a therapistwho's not comfortable with
trauma and not doesn't reallyknow what to do with it and
that's okay um but it's notgoing to be helpful to you
especially if you have addictionBecause you need the help with

(18:22):
the things that are traumatic inyour life.
And that's not going to helpyou.
What will help you is somebodywho can help guide you through
that trauma experience and thetraumatic life that you've lived
and self-destructed becauseyou're trying to cope with drugs
and alcohol and trying to killyourself with it.

(18:43):
But they need to be able toguide you through to get to that
place of healing.
And they have to be verycomfortable with somebody who is
just decompensating right infront of them.
They're just really fallingapart right in front of them.
And that's a tough thing to do,honestly.
I experience it, you know, notevery day, but, you know,

(19:06):
multiple times a month with myclients who get to that place.
And, you know, it's a tough...
thing to witness it, but it'stough to know what to do with it
when it arrives in front of you.
So trying to get to a pointwhere you're healing, exposing
the information to the air, tothe light of day, in the

(19:31):
presence of another person, willhelp you get to that place where
you're having that healingexperience.
So when you're working onrecovery, Um, and you take away
your primary coping mechanism,drugs, alcohol, food, gambling,

(19:52):
shopping, porn, whatever.
And there's nothing else there.
You got nothing to cope.
You're just going to go rightback to it.
And you know, it's, it's, it'sokay that that happens.
I get it.
Hopefully, um, the people aroundyou get it.
Um, because you haven't foundthe thing that's going to help
heal you so when you're reallyreally really in a tough place

(20:17):
and you know it's difficult andthat's why rehab is a good
starting point because it's hardto regulate when you're so
deregulated you're sodysregulated in a way that
there's nothing that's going toreach you and So there's
severity of addiction.

(20:37):
The easier addict to deal withis the one that's somewhere in
the middle of their addiction,their early entrance into
addiction.
It's tough because you can'tconvince the person that that's
actually really a problembecause it's not yet, but it's
going to be.
And the person that's in thelater stages of addiction,
they're very difficult to dealwith because they're so
entrenched in that copingmechanism.

(21:00):
So that's why I keep saying topeople, When I talk to them
about addiction, you got to goto rehab.
And what's the point of rehab?
The point of rehab is to giveyou a physical barrier between
you and your drug of choice sothat you can work on those
things that are causing you tobe dysregulated.
So the mind, body, and theintellect, the emotion, and the

(21:25):
body responses to trauma.
are greatly affected by theenvironment the stimulation of
that uh memory perhaps somethingthat parallels the memory but
it's also what you're doing totreat it not you individually as
the addict treating it no i'mnot saying that but what you're
doing to get the treatment thetreatment that you need and

(21:47):
you're using drugs and alcoholbut now what are you going to
use but I guess primarily what Iwant to get across today is that
you fully understand that thereis a very strong, scientifically
supported understanding of aconnection between the
intellect, the emotion, and thebody when it comes to how we

(22:09):
receive information, how weretain that information, the
memories, if you will, thememories, right?
I remember things, my bodyremembers it, my mind remembers
it intellectually, and myemotion remembers it.
And you have different responsesto each one of those forms of
memory.

(22:29):
So the body memory can be onewhere you feel sick or you feel
pain, ghost pain or pain,repetitious pain in a part of
your body that was injured.
Bessel van der Kolk and DanSiegel and Stephen Porges, all
the leading...
scientific researchers and andtheorists and practitioners of

(22:51):
of that body retention of memorycan speak to that and there's
you know there's a lot of bookson that there's a lot of things
on the internet i can encourageyou to look you know on youtube
and listen to people talk aboutit um stephen porges is a is a
good source stephen porges is aneuroscientist who talks

(23:12):
extensively about the sciencebehind the connection.
Dan Siegel is a scientist aswell, but he talks more in kind
of these a little bit moredifficult to follow esoteric
type approaches to it, but theconnection between the emotion
and the body and the retentionof that memory in the body.

(23:33):
Bessel van der Kolk, a verygood...
individual to speak to thoseconnections and Gabor Maté also
talks extensively about that inhis work.
So if you really want tounderstand like the scientific
connection there or theapplication of that scientific

(23:57):
theory, Gabor Maté is very goodat that and he does a very good
job of explaining it.
Um, so, you know, I wouldencourage you if you were
traumatized and you want someeducation or some understanding,
that would be a very good wayto, uh, try to do some research
on that.

(24:17):
And I would encourage you to dothat because you know what, as
an addict, listen, man, it's notyour fault that you're having
these responses.
And until you get that help, thetype of response you have is not
really under your control andthat's okay.
Because you can't heal yourselfwithout help.

(24:37):
You just can't.
You have to participate in thehealing, but you're not going to
heal yourself.
But I'm going to caution you.
Reading a book or watching aYouTube video where somebody
talks about these things is alsonot healing.
That is just simply exposure toinformation.
But it's the application of ofthat scientific theoretical

(25:02):
approach to treatment that youneed to experience so if you um
do if you don't get that thenyou're not ever going to really
probably ever get there you'rejust going to know all about it
but you're not going to have itso going to rehab first and then
after that getting into someeffective treatment for your

(25:25):
addiction for the recovery ofyour trauma That's where you
need to go.
So I would encourage you to dothat.
Well, look at that.
Another episode of Doc Shock,your addiction lifeguard.
In the books, as one of myfriends used to say.
Really appreciate you listening.
And if you would like to be onthe show, I'd love to hear from

(25:48):
you.
I love hearing from people inrecovery, people trying to get
into recovery, clinicians.
Hey, feel free.
Reach out to me.
I've got some recent inquiries.
I'm trying to put some peoplefor you to get more than just my
words of advice.
But if you need help, go torehab.
Reach out for a therapist.

(26:09):
Do something.
Because ending your life to saveyour addiction, that's just
crazy.
Don't do that, get the help soyou can be sane, stable, and
sober.
So if you do like this podcast,come back.
And until the next time, this isDoc Shock saying, see ya.