December 16, 2025 • 27 mins
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This episode hits EVERY corner of healthcare. Medical students, residents, nursing students, and attendings.
We’re diving deep into:
1. The Department of Education’s classification of nursing as not a professional degree
● What does this actually mean?
● Does it affect student loans?
● Will this change the future of nursing?
● Why EVERY healthcare worker should pay attention
This episode hits home for:
● Nursing students
● Medical students
● Residents & fellows
● Attending physicians
● 1099 & locums doctors
● Anyone interested in healthcare policy or physician lifestyle
If you’re studying, training, practicing, or thinking about locums… this one’s for you.
Comment Below:
● Are you a nursing student affected by the DOE classification?
● Would you listen to Wale’s new album in the OR?
● Are you making your HSA contribution this year?
● Are you considering locums in 2025–2026?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
The audience wants to know what's up with the
Department of Educationclassifying nursing not as a
professional degree.
Basically, what happened is theDepartment of Education, or
whatever's left of theDepartment of Education, they
recategorize nursing programs,it puts them in a different
category.
What's the cap on federalstudent loans that nursing
students are eligible to take?
(01:47):
I don't know if you've even beento the Department of Education
website.
It's like Instagram, basically.
It is like some petty16-year-old.
They believe if they put a capon nursing degrees, that will
force nursing schools todecrease their tuition.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
I'm gonna say that I've never seen colleges
actually decrease anything, muchless tuition.
So if I go to the same college,you're saying that I will have
lower tuition than theengineering student, than the
art history major, than theunderwater basket weaving
student.
Is that what they're trying tosay?
SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
Yo, what's up, everybody?
Welcome back to another episodeof Docs Outside the Box.
I'm Dr.
Ni here with the incomparableDr.
Renee.
Um, and today we've got aforeplay for you.
We're gonna be talking about alot today, Dr.
Renee.
Um, first, we're gonna bejumping into this quick
conversation about theDepartment of Education,
classifying nursing, not as aprofessional degree, and why
(02:45):
that's important for upcomingnurses or upcoming future
nurses.
Then we're gonna switch gears.
Um, you know me.
Um I like music, particularly uhhip-hop music 2024-2025 has been
an amazing year for really goodrap music, if you know what I
mean.
Great rappers.
So we're gonna talk about Waledropping his new album.
(03:06):
And then we're gonna talk abouta personal update.
Um, as you all know, we talkabout us as doctors, us as locum
physicians, um, but also we talkabout um, you know, some of the
financial decisions that we'vemake, that we make, and we have
a tenant upstairs.
So we're gonna give you guys alittle bit of an update of
what's going on with therenovations and some of the tax
(03:26):
implications with having atenant upstairs.
Then we're gonna talk about HSAaccounts.
And we got another listenerquestion.
It's how do I know if I'm readyfor how do I know if I'm ready
for locums?
That is a lot, and that's whatI'm telling you.
We need to get into it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
That's a good question.
That's a good question.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Okay.
All right, you ready to get intothis?
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
Let's rock.
Let's rock.
All right, let's go, let's go,let's go.
I'm at my mother's house today.
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
Yeah, I could tell by the background, yeah.
But listen, um, the audiencewants to know what's up with the
department of educationclassifying nursing not as a
professional degree.
I don't know about you guys.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
I think that took a lot of people by surprise.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
Yeah, it took a lot of people.
Well, possibly.
It didn't take me by surprisebecause I know what quote
unquote they're trying to do.
But basically, what happened isthe Department of Education, or
whatever's left of theDepartment of Education, they
recategorize nursing programs incertain contexts.
The most important part is thatthey're saying that it's not a
(04:28):
professional degree.
For whatever reason, they'resaying it's not a professional
degree.
The ultimate endpoint is itdecreases, it puts them in a
different category as to howmany loans, what's the cap on
federal student loans thatnursing students are eligible to
take?
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
So, in essence, now question, question.
So are they talking about just abachelor of nursing or are they
talking about NP, CRNA, youknow, doctorate of nursing?
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
So what does this entire bachelor's, anything that
is getting you a college degree,right?
Anything that's related tosomething that they consider not
well, anything that's gettingyou to graduate to a graduate
degree, right?
So getting you to a bachelor'sin below is under this role.
(05:24):
So LPN.
Right.
Even RN, right?
Because you're getting abachelor's.
LPN, RN.
Correct.
Now, if you're trying to get anadvanced degree, then you are
considered a professional.
So N P C R N A.
The whole per the whole reasonthat they're saying this,
according to their website.
I don't know if you've even beento the Department of Education
website.
It is like a social media, it'slike Instagram, basically.
(05:45):
Like they, you know how likewhen you are on a government
website, you don't expect muchat all?
Like, yeah, it is like somepetty 16-year-old, like, first
of all, second of all, third ofall, like in that lingo.
But the the the gist of it isthey believe that if they stop,
(06:08):
if they put a cap on nursingdegrees in terms of how many
student loans you can take outor how much, that that will
force nursing schools todecrease their tuition.
That's the ultimate thought.
I don't know if it's gonna work.
We don't have any proof thatit's working, but that is a
scary place to be.
Hold on, hold on.
That is a very scary place tobe, um, mainly because we don't
(06:34):
like they've already they kindof already started this process
already.
They say that based off of thestatistics of nursing students
and when they graduate, they saythe majority of them already
borrow under this cap anyway,which is going to be 20,500.
They said on average, mostnursing students borrow less
than that amount.
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
20,500.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
That is going to be the new proposed cap per year.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
For for for nursing students specifically?
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
Yes, this is what they're proposing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Not college students.
SPEAKER_00 (07:11):
Nursing students.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
So I guess herein lies my question.
Because I did hear that, I heardthat as well, right?
That if you go into, you know,these professions, that what's
supposed to happen is thatcolleges are then going to
decrease their tuition.
Which I'm gonna say that I'venever seen colleges actually
(07:35):
decrease anything, much lesstuition, not fees, not dorm
fees, nothing, not graduationfees, nothing.
My second question is so if I goto the same college as an
engineering student, you'resaying that I will have lower
(08:02):
tuition than the engineeringstudent, than the art history
major, than the underwaterbasket weaving student.
Is that what they're trying tosay?
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
I so that's the part that I'm trying to figure out
right now.
I don't know the definitiveanswer because when you're going
to nursing school, you're notgoing to nursing school per se
with college girls, you know,college students who's not
school.
Well, what I'm saying is likeyou're just you're, let's say,
for example, you went to Pace,right?
I went to Lehigh, right?
Um I don't know if they had anursing program, if you're
(08:35):
considered in the same tier asif someone who's trying to get a
liberal arts degree or anengineering degree.
I don't know about that.
But we do know that if you'retrying to get a nursing degree,
they're capping you at 20,500per year.
The thing that I am, and I agreewith you, I've never seen that
occur.
I don't think we have any proofthat um that schools will
(08:55):
decrease their tuition.
I understand where they'regetting to.
I don't think that they're beingrealistic, and I don't know if
they're being if this is reallya um, if this is a real, like
this is what they're trying todo.
If you're a nursing student,you're listening right now, I
think a lot of them have beenmore focused on the um, they're
more focused on uh worth, likethis is my worth when it's not
(09:19):
really about your worth, this isabout policy, right?
And this is about the downstreameffects of you know these
effects on policy and how itaffects your ability to get
loans.
So I think they're focusing toomuch.
I think the future uh studentsare focusing a little bit too
much on, well, we're worth morethan this.
And like this is not about that.
This is bureaucracy.
(09:39):
And the administration knows howto play chess, and they think
that by playing this chess move,it'll force schools to decrease
their tuition.
My concern is that in themeantime, while it's may take
several years for them todecrease tuition if that even
occurs, there's gonna be a lotof gatekeeping comp happening,
right?
Just like we talked about inprevious episodes.
(10:01):
You're gonna have a lot morestudents who are gonna have to
go to private loans and be ableto finish their education or at
least start their education,right?
And we already have a nursingshortage.
So now you have a nursingshortage with no major cap.
Now you throw in a cap, andyou're I, in my opinion, you're
probably gonna make the nursingshortage even worse.
(10:21):
Right.
So um go ahead, chime on and youseem like you want to say
something.
SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
Yeah, so a quick Google search.
Now I can't I can't say thatthis is 100% true, but a quick
Google search says that nursingprograms tend to have higher
tuition than your generaltuition for college.
And that's often because, youknow, in their last two years of
school, right?
I had I had a really good friendactually in college with me, and
(10:51):
she was a nursing student.
And at, you know, the last twoyears of of college, if you
will, for nursing students tendsto be their clinicals, right?
Their clinical rotations.
And so that makes sense thatthere would be a significant
increase in costs for thesestudents because now you're
(11:12):
probably trying having to coversome sort of insurance for these
students to go out and and kindof mingle with patients, if you
will, right?
Interact with patients.
Um, so the cost is actuallyhigher, right?
So to answer my own questionbased on this, then yes, the
(11:34):
tuition is going to bedifferent, maybe not less, but
currently it seems that thetuition is different, i.e.,
higher than your average, youknow, art history major, theater
major, underwater basket weavingmajor, right?
So I guess I'm not clear on hownursing programs are supposed to
(11:58):
decrease their tuition when theytechnically have higher cost to
be able to get students throughthe program.
As a pre-med, right?
You and I were both pre-medscience majors.
We did not have the we didn'thave the additional cost that
(12:19):
comes with interacting withpatients, right?
So I'm not quite sure how that'ssupposed to happen now.
SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
Which point are you talking about?
Which which point are youtalking about?
What are you talking about?
In college?
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
I'm yeah, in college.
SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
In college.
You don't have to interact withpatients as a pre-med student.
(13:58):
It's not it's not compulsory,right?
SPEAKER_00 (14:01):
Well, the education is different, though.
Their education is different.
You're not getting taught byyou're not getting taught by by
um professors who by physicians.
Well, it's not even justphysicians, right?
You're not getting taught byPhDs and so forth who are adept
at a medical school curriculum.
You're just being taught by PhD.
(14:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
Right.
But that but that's exactly whatI'm saying is that there is a
higher cost.
It makes sense that nursingprograms have a higher cost
because you're then college,then your regular college.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Well, how about this?
If we were to but that but I'mbut I'm listening to I'm I'm
answering your question.
Like we do believe that there'san inflation issue, right?
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
I I believe that.
SPEAKER_00 (14:52):
So what I'm saying is, outside of inflation.
I get what you're saying.
Okay, go ahead, go ahead,please, go ahead.
I don't want to go in a circle.
SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
I'm saying outside of inflation, if we had to cost
for cost, potentially figure outwhat the cost is for a nursing
student to complete collegeversus a pre-med to finish
college, who do we think willhave the higher cost?
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
See, I I actually tend to think about it
differently.
Like it's already known when yougo to college, like you're going
to college and let's say youwant to be, you want to major in
pre-med, I know not all mytuition dollars is going to that
pre-med department.
I know the significant portionof my monies is going into a
pool to pay all of theprofessors.
(15:46):
I know that a significantportion of my money is going to
pay for on-campus housing andthe cafeteria and the sports
team and all these differentthings.
Whereas when you go to, let'ssay you go to specifically a
nursing school by itself, or ifyou go to a med school by
itself, it's just med school.
There's no team there.
There's no, there's a cafeteria,but it's not anywhere near the
(16:07):
cafeteria that you would see ata university.
It's like you uh like I just forme, I would just think that
paying for a med school or theoperations of a med school by
itself or the operations of anursing school by itself would
be far less than the entirebudget for an entire college or
university that offers multipledegrees.
(16:29):
Don't you think?
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
I I So you're saying that because you're saying there
should be an offset, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
I'm just saying it's just more ex people are expected
to be more expensive becausethey feel like you're gonna get
paid more.
And it's like, well, that's notthat shouldn't be the case.
It should just be, well, howmuch does it cost?
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
No, we're mixing up a lot of things.
Wait, what's the difference?
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
No, I'm saying the tuition.
You're saying tuition is higher,right?
Tuition is higher.
Tuition is higher, well, it is.
Tuition is just as much orhigher for a nursing degree than
someone who's getting anundergrad, right?
I think that that assumption isbased on the fact that you
expect to be making a lot ofmoney as a nursing, as a nurse.
Whereas I'm saying if we reallygo down pound for pound, what as
(17:14):
an undergrad, I'm not justpaying, like my if it's$50,000
to go to the school that I wentto, I know that it doesn't cost
$50,000 to get a pre-med degree.
I know that the significantportion of my money is going to
the budget of the entireuniversity and so forth.
Uh-huh.
Right.
So I should not expect to pay$50,000.
Like, I'd be pissed if I had topay$50,000 for nursing school.
(17:35):
Because I'm like, well, where'smy money going?
Right?
Like, it didn't cost this much20,000, 20, 20 years ago.
Why does it cost this much now?
Right?
And I think that's one of themain complaints of people in
general about education.
And I think that's where theadministration is trying,
they're they're using thatargument.
I don't know if it's afull-hearted effort though.
But basically what they'retrying to say is like, yo, you
(17:55):
guys are just colleges anduniversities are just increasing
tuition only because they knowthat students can get a loan.
That's what they're saying.
So they're saying if we takeaway your ability to get a loan,
will that have will now willthat force the student the
schools to either decrease theirtuition or keep it stable?
I'm not saying I I think it'sgonna work, but I think that's
(18:16):
the rationale that they'reusing.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Well, but that that so then that goes back to my
question, right?
If you are going to decrease theamount of student loans given to
those students in particular,and you think that it's going to
decrease the tuition of thosestudents in particular, then
(18:40):
let's say the first two years ofcollege for your nursing
students looks very similar toany other student going to
college, right?
They have to take their, youknow, core classes, then they
start into their major classes,right?
(19:01):
That they have to sit in theclassroom.
So are we saying that in thefirst two years, let's say my
tuition is$30,000 for you know,this school's tuition is$30,000,
right?
Are we saying that everybodyelse's tuition is gonna be
$30,000, but the nursingstudents' tuition is gonna be
(19:23):
$15,000 for the for the firsttwo years?
Like what are we like?
I don't know.
I don't even understand.
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
I think I think for the folks who I think for the
folks who are listening rightnow, if you went through an
accelerated program, right?
So for example, if you went tocollege and then you went, like
you went to those collegeprograms that when you get into
college, then you're gonna gointo medical school that's
already set up, or same thingwith nursing.
And a seven-year-old.
They even have the same thingfor PAs also.
I'm really interested because Iwant to know, like, usually for
(19:48):
those programs, like the firsttwo years, whether it's PA,
nursing, or even MD, you'rebasically in an undergrad
curriculum.
So the question is, are thosefirst year, those two years of
tuition, is it similar to aregular undergrad's tuition?
And does it go up once theystart taking those grad level
(20:09):
courses, nursing, PA, or even umuh MDDO, is it does it go up
once you start taking these?
Right?
That's what I want someone, ifyou're listening, if you're
listening, I want you to let usknow because that's that's
another bit of information thatwould help kind of clarify this
up.
But before we go into a rabbithole, because there's a lot of
conundrums that we don't know,but we do know that people who
(20:32):
are trying to get into schoolright now, particularly people
who, you know, don't come fromtrust funds, you know what I'm
talking about, people who comefrom certain demographics who
already were going to use loans,right?
Who were going to use loans toget through, this is just
another hurt, another hurdle,right?
So, you know, we're talkingabout getting private loans.
And I think that where thegeneral public may be like,
(20:55):
well, come on now, like if youreally want to get it, go and
get it.
The problem is is remember,private loans are not eligible
for PSLF.
Private loans, um, there's a lotof different uh benefits that
you get when you take out afederal student loan.
When you take out a privateloan, it's way more stringent.
You may not have the credit toget it.
They want their money quick, theinterest rates might be higher.
(21:18):
All of these different things.
And you already know the numberone complaint that a lot of
people have when they're in ahospital or when they go to the
ED is why does it take so longfor me to get seen?
A lot of times it's not thephysician, it's not the PA, it's
not the nurse practitioner who'sthere.
They're there.
It's just that you don't haveenough rooms to get these people
(21:38):
in, right?
There's not enough nurses toopen up more rooms.
You go upstairs, there's athere's patients in the ED who
have already been admitted,right?
And they can't get to theupstairs because there's not
enough nurses upstairs to takecare of these patients.
So as a result, there's morepeople in the waiting rooms.
So you already have a nursingshortage right now.
Imagine what this will do on topof that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:01):
So I'm going to say this that I don't know any I
don't know at any point in timewhen any decision has been made
by the government such thatanyone on the end of that
(22:24):
decision would end up makingless money.
There is usually some sort of,in other words, this
legislation, right?
We've heard, this is theargument, that this legislation
is coming into play so that.
(22:47):
Colleges decrease their tuition,i.e., make less money.
Yes.
I've never heard of regulationwhere any entity at the end of
that regulation ends up losingmoney.
(23:07):
So there is only one thing thatthis legislation could do, it is
to allow people to make moremoney.
And that's why I'm glad youbrought up the thing about
taking out private loans.
Because many students who go toschool don't necessarily have to
(23:28):
take out a large portion ofprivate loans.
Most of it is governmentfunding.
Federal, Stafford, unsubsidized,subsidized.
Parent plus loan might factorinto that.
unknown (23:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
Which is you take out parent plus loans?
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
Did your parents ever take out plus loans?
For undergrad or for med school?
SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
For undergrad.
I don't know.
I don't remember.
SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
I can't remember.
SPEAKER_01 (23:56):
But definitely, definitely for the colours.
SPEAKER_00 (23:58):
My parents took out for plus loans.
Oh yeah.
Which sounds like scores.
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
The only other thing left, right?
The only other thing left is theprivate loans.
SPEAKER_00 (24:11):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
And so I'm like, well, did they get in the room?
Definitely colleges.
Colleges are definitely notlowering their tuition.
They're just not.
They're just going to be like,well, if you can't get it, I
need you to be more optimistic,Bev.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
I need you to be more optimistic.
Come on.
SPEAKER_01 (24:26):
Okay, that that's cute.
But colleges are not going tolower their tuition.
Because now you gotta remember,it costs something, it costs
something to run a college.
Now all of a sudden you're gonnadecrease.
That's like, honestly, that'slike being demoted at your job.
While you have a mortgage, youhave a gas bill, you have
electricity, you have X, Y, andZ.
(24:48):
You think the mortgage companyis gonna be like, ah, well,
since you got demoted, we'rejust gonna reduce your your
mortgage for you.
Nah, bruh.
Yeah.
That's not the way that happens.
They're not gonna decrease thecost of your house for you.
Like that's what I'm gonna do.
I can't remember the episode.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
I can't remember if, folks, I can't remember the
episode that we did it, butrecently we went over some of
the resources that med studentscan use to find out alternative
ways to finance education.
Because I'm telling you, uh, youknow, obviously with college not
backing down, you know, you'regoing to exhaust a lot of those
funds in college.
(25:23):
Then you throw on top of that anursing degree on top of that.
So you just gotta be ready.
You gotta be smart, you gottamake sure mom dukes, dad dukes,
got good credit, auntie,whatever.
You may have to do some hardwork.
SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
That's like getting them scholarships.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
You might have to do an all-in-one loan, all of these
different things, right?
Might have to do to make surethat you're ready to pay for
this education that you reallywant.
And um, hey, elections haveconsequences.
That's what I say.
SPEAKER_01 (25:50):
Let me say that in the short run, that is the
answer.
Right?
In the short run, that is theanswer.
But I'm gonna say that those ofyou who are going to college
now, if this is not a wake-upcall for potentially what you
are going to encounter when yourchildren get to college, which
(26:11):
may be this or maybe even worse,I'm telling y'all right now, if
you're going to college, if youhappen to get through caps and
all, if you happen to getthrough the importance of
financial literacy,understanding how money works,
understanding how to use yourmoney so that it works for you
(26:34):
and your family and yourchildren, beyond just I'ma get
this house and I'ma get thiscar, and I'm gonna get, you can
get all this stuff.
But at the end of the day, ifyou want to have generationally
your family be part of thelegacy of people who go to
(26:55):
college, get professionaldegrees, if that is your desire,
I'm gonna tell you right now,you better start really, really,
really thinking about how moneyworks and not just acquiring
things because perhaps, youknow, like me, you didn't
necessarily grow up with all theluxuries in life.
SPEAKER_00 (27:17):
So And that being said, hey guys, make sure you
check out all the resources thatare available.
Um, because you're gonna needit.
So, you know, whether it's uhprivate loans or learning how to
decrease the amount of studentloans that you're taking in
college.
This is real, this is real.
It's gonna hit you now.
I remember the days of yo, justtake a loan, you'll be all
(27:38):
right.
Yeah, you're gonna have to thinktwice, three times, four times
before you take out that loanbecause it may catch up to you
five years, seven years down theline.
So um, with that being said,let's change directions and
let's go ahead and take a break,and we'll come back and talk
about Wale's new album.
The audience wants to know what's up with the
Department of Educationclassifying nursing not as a
professional degree.
Basically, what happened is theDepartment of Education, or
whatever's left of theDepartment of Education, they
recategorize nursing programs,it puts them in a different
category.
What's the cap on federalstudent loans that nursing
students are eligible to take?
(01:47):
I don't know if you've even beento the Department of Education
website.
It's like Instagram, basically.
It is like some petty16-year-old.
They believe if they put a capon nursing degrees, that will
force nursing schools todecrease their tuition.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
I'm gonna say that I've never seen colleges
actually decrease anything, muchless tuition.
So if I go to the same college,you're saying that I will have
lower tuition than theengineering student, than the
art history major, than theunderwater basket weaving
student.
Is that what they're trying tosay?
SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
Yo, what's up, everybody?
Welcome back to another episodeof Docs Outside the Box.
I'm Dr.
Ni here with the incomparableDr.
Renee.
Um, and today we've got aforeplay for you.
We're gonna be talking about alot today, Dr.
Renee.
Um, first, we're gonna bejumping into this quick
conversation about theDepartment of Education,
classifying nursing, not as aprofessional degree, and why
(02:45):
that's important for upcomingnurses or upcoming future
nurses.
Then we're gonna switch gears.
Um, you know me.
Um I like music, particularly uhhip-hop music 2024-2025 has been
an amazing year for really goodrap music, if you know what I
mean.
Great rappers.
So we're gonna talk about Waledropping his new album.
(03:06):
And then we're gonna talk abouta personal update.
Um, as you all know, we talkabout us as doctors, us as locum
physicians, um, but also we talkabout um, you know, some of the
financial decisions that we'vemake, that we make, and we have
a tenant upstairs.
So we're gonna give you guys alittle bit of an update of
what's going on with therenovations and some of the tax
(03:26):
implications with having atenant upstairs.
Then we're gonna talk about HSAaccounts.
And we got another listenerquestion.
It's how do I know if I'm readyfor how do I know if I'm ready
for locums?
That is a lot, and that's whatI'm telling you.
We need to get into it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
That's a good question.
That's a good question.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Okay.
All right, you ready to get intothis?
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
Let's rock.
Let's rock.
All right, let's go, let's go,let's go.
I'm at my mother's house today.
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
Yeah, I could tell by the background, yeah.
But listen, um, the audiencewants to know what's up with the
department of educationclassifying nursing not as a
professional degree.
I don't know about you guys.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
I think that took a lot of people by surprise.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
Yeah, it took a lot of people.
Well, possibly.
It didn't take me by surprisebecause I know what quote
unquote they're trying to do.
But basically, what happened isthe Department of Education, or
whatever's left of theDepartment of Education, they
recategorize nursing programs incertain contexts.
The most important part is thatthey're saying that it's not a
(04:28):
professional degree.
For whatever reason, they'resaying it's not a professional
degree.
The ultimate endpoint is itdecreases, it puts them in a
different category as to howmany loans, what's the cap on
federal student loans thatnursing students are eligible to
take?
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
So, in essence, now question, question.
So are they talking about just abachelor of nursing or are they
talking about NP, CRNA, youknow, doctorate of nursing?
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
So what does this entire bachelor's, anything that
is getting you a college degree,right?
Anything that's related tosomething that they consider not
well, anything that's gettingyou to graduate to a graduate
degree, right?
So getting you to a bachelor'sin below is under this role.
(05:24):
So LPN.
Right.
Even RN, right?
Because you're getting abachelor's.
LPN, RN.
Correct.
Now, if you're trying to get anadvanced degree, then you are
considered a professional.
So N P C R N A.
The whole per the whole reasonthat they're saying this,
according to their website.
I don't know if you've even beento the Department of Education
website.
It is like a social media, it'slike Instagram, basically.
(05:45):
Like they, you know how likewhen you are on a government
website, you don't expect muchat all?
Like, yeah, it is like somepetty 16-year-old, like, first
of all, second of all, third ofall, like in that lingo.
But the the the gist of it isthey believe that if they stop,
(06:08):
if they put a cap on nursingdegrees in terms of how many
student loans you can take outor how much, that that will
force nursing schools todecrease their tuition.
That's the ultimate thought.
I don't know if it's gonna work.
We don't have any proof thatit's working, but that is a
scary place to be.
Hold on, hold on.
That is a very scary place tobe, um, mainly because we don't
(06:34):
like they've already they kindof already started this process
already.
They say that based off of thestatistics of nursing students
and when they graduate, they saythe majority of them already
borrow under this cap anyway,which is going to be 20,500.
They said on average, mostnursing students borrow less
than that amount.
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
20,500.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
That is going to be the new proposed cap per year.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
For for for nursing students specifically?
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
Yes, this is what they're proposing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Not college students.
SPEAKER_00 (07:11):
Nursing students.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
So I guess herein lies my question.
Because I did hear that, I heardthat as well, right?
That if you go into, you know,these professions, that what's
supposed to happen is thatcolleges are then going to
decrease their tuition.
Which I'm gonna say that I'venever seen colleges actually
(07:35):
decrease anything, much lesstuition, not fees, not dorm
fees, nothing, not graduationfees, nothing.
My second question is so if I goto the same college as an
engineering student, you'resaying that I will have lower
(08:02):
tuition than the engineeringstudent, than the art history
major, than the underwaterbasket weaving student.
Is that what they're trying tosay?
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
I so that's the part that I'm trying to figure out
right now.
I don't know the definitiveanswer because when you're going
to nursing school, you're notgoing to nursing school per se
with college girls, you know,college students who's not
school.
Well, what I'm saying is likeyou're just you're, let's say,
for example, you went to Pace,right?
I went to Lehigh, right?
Um I don't know if they had anursing program, if you're
(08:35):
considered in the same tier asif someone who's trying to get a
liberal arts degree or anengineering degree.
I don't know about that.
But we do know that if you'retrying to get a nursing degree,
they're capping you at 20,500per year.
The thing that I am, and I agreewith you, I've never seen that
occur.
I don't think we have any proofthat um that schools will
(08:55):
decrease their tuition.
I understand where they'regetting to.
I don't think that they're beingrealistic, and I don't know if
they're being if this is reallya um, if this is a real, like
this is what they're trying todo.
If you're a nursing student,you're listening right now, I
think a lot of them have beenmore focused on the um, they're
more focused on uh worth, likethis is my worth when it's not
(09:19):
really about your worth, this isabout policy, right?
And this is about the downstreameffects of you know these
effects on policy and how itaffects your ability to get
loans.
So I think they're focusing toomuch.
I think the future uh studentsare focusing a little bit too
much on, well, we're worth morethan this.
And like this is not about that.
This is bureaucracy.
(09:39):
And the administration knows howto play chess, and they think
that by playing this chess move,it'll force schools to decrease
their tuition.
My concern is that in themeantime, while it's may take
several years for them todecrease tuition if that even
occurs, there's gonna be a lotof gatekeeping comp happening,
right?
Just like we talked about inprevious episodes.
(10:01):
You're gonna have a lot morestudents who are gonna have to
go to private loans and be ableto finish their education or at
least start their education,right?
And we already have a nursingshortage.
So now you have a nursingshortage with no major cap.
Now you throw in a cap, andyou're I, in my opinion, you're
probably gonna make the nursingshortage even worse.
(10:21):
Right.
So um go ahead, chime on and youseem like you want to say
something.
SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
Yeah, so a quick Google search.
Now I can't I can't say thatthis is 100% true, but a quick
Google search says that nursingprograms tend to have higher
tuition than your generaltuition for college.
And that's often because, youknow, in their last two years of
school, right?
I had I had a really good friendactually in college with me, and
(10:51):
she was a nursing student.
And at, you know, the last twoyears of of college, if you
will, for nursing students tendsto be their clinicals, right?
Their clinical rotations.
And so that makes sense thatthere would be a significant
increase in costs for thesestudents because now you're
(11:12):
probably trying having to coversome sort of insurance for these
students to go out and and kindof mingle with patients, if you
will, right?
Interact with patients.
Um, so the cost is actuallyhigher, right?
So to answer my own questionbased on this, then yes, the
(11:34):
tuition is going to bedifferent, maybe not less, but
currently it seems that thetuition is different, i.e.,
higher than your average, youknow, art history major, theater
major, underwater basket weavingmajor, right?
So I guess I'm not clear on hownursing programs are supposed to
(11:58):
decrease their tuition when theytechnically have higher cost to
be able to get students throughthe program.
As a pre-med, right?
You and I were both pre-medscience majors.
We did not have the we didn'thave the additional cost that
(12:19):
comes with interacting withpatients, right?
So I'm not quite sure how that'ssupposed to happen now.
SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
Which point are you talking about?
Which which point are youtalking about?
What are you talking about?
In college?
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
I'm yeah, in college.
SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
In college.
You don't have to interact withpatients as a pre-med student.
(13:58):
It's not it's not compulsory,right?
SPEAKER_00 (14:01):
Well, the education is different, though.
Their education is different.
You're not getting taught byyou're not getting taught by by
um professors who by physicians.
Well, it's not even justphysicians, right?
You're not getting taught byPhDs and so forth who are adept
at a medical school curriculum.
You're just being taught by PhD.
(14:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
Right.
But that but that's exactly whatI'm saying is that there is a
higher cost.
It makes sense that nursingprograms have a higher cost
because you're then college,then your regular college.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Well, how about this?
If we were to but that but I'mbut I'm listening to I'm I'm
answering your question.
Like we do believe that there'san inflation issue, right?
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
I I believe that.
SPEAKER_00 (14:52):
So what I'm saying is, outside of inflation.
I get what you're saying.
Okay, go ahead, go ahead,please, go ahead.
I don't want to go in a circle.
SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
I'm saying outside of inflation, if we had to cost
for cost, potentially figure outwhat the cost is for a nursing
student to complete collegeversus a pre-med to finish
college, who do we think willhave the higher cost?
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
See, I I actually tend to think about it
differently.
Like it's already known when yougo to college, like you're going
to college and let's say youwant to be, you want to major in
pre-med, I know not all mytuition dollars is going to that
pre-med department.
I know the significant portionof my monies is going into a
pool to pay all of theprofessors.
(15:46):
I know that a significantportion of my money is going to
pay for on-campus housing andthe cafeteria and the sports
team and all these differentthings.
Whereas when you go to, let'ssay you go to specifically a
nursing school by itself, or ifyou go to a med school by
itself, it's just med school.
There's no team there.
There's no, there's a cafeteria,but it's not anywhere near the
(16:07):
cafeteria that you would see ata university.
It's like you uh like I just forme, I would just think that
paying for a med school or theoperations of a med school by
itself or the operations of anursing school by itself would
be far less than the entirebudget for an entire college or
university that offers multipledegrees.
(16:29):
Don't you think?
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
I I So you're saying that because you're saying there
should be an offset, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
I'm just saying it's just more ex people are expected
to be more expensive becausethey feel like you're gonna get
paid more.
And it's like, well, that's notthat shouldn't be the case.
It should just be, well, howmuch does it cost?
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
No, we're mixing up a lot of things.
Wait, what's the difference?
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
No, I'm saying the tuition.
You're saying tuition is higher,right?
Tuition is higher.
Tuition is higher, well, it is.
Tuition is just as much orhigher for a nursing degree than
someone who's getting anundergrad, right?
I think that that assumption isbased on the fact that you
expect to be making a lot ofmoney as a nursing, as a nurse.
Whereas I'm saying if we reallygo down pound for pound, what as
(17:14):
an undergrad, I'm not justpaying, like my if it's$50,000
to go to the school that I wentto, I know that it doesn't cost
$50,000 to get a pre-med degree.
I know that the significantportion of my money is going to
the budget of the entireuniversity and so forth.
Uh-huh.
Right.
So I should not expect to pay$50,000.
Like, I'd be pissed if I had topay$50,000 for nursing school.
(17:35):
Because I'm like, well, where'smy money going?
Right?
Like, it didn't cost this much20,000, 20, 20 years ago.
Why does it cost this much now?
Right?
And I think that's one of themain complaints of people in
general about education.
And I think that's where theadministration is trying,
they're they're using thatargument.
I don't know if it's afull-hearted effort though.
But basically what they'retrying to say is like, yo, you
(17:55):
guys are just colleges anduniversities are just increasing
tuition only because they knowthat students can get a loan.
That's what they're saying.
So they're saying if we takeaway your ability to get a loan,
will that have will now willthat force the student the
schools to either decrease theirtuition or keep it stable?
I'm not saying I I think it'sgonna work, but I think that's
(18:16):
the rationale that they'reusing.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Well, but that that so then that goes back to my
question, right?
If you are going to decrease theamount of student loans given to
those students in particular,and you think that it's going to
decrease the tuition of thosestudents in particular, then
(18:40):
let's say the first two years ofcollege for your nursing
students looks very similar toany other student going to
college, right?
They have to take their, youknow, core classes, then they
start into their major classes,right?
(19:01):
That they have to sit in theclassroom.
So are we saying that in thefirst two years, let's say my
tuition is$30,000 for you know,this school's tuition is$30,000,
right?
Are we saying that everybodyelse's tuition is gonna be
$30,000, but the nursingstudents' tuition is gonna be
(19:23):
$15,000 for the for the firsttwo years?
Like what are we like?
I don't know.
I don't even understand.
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
I think I think for the folks who I think for the
folks who are listening rightnow, if you went through an
accelerated program, right?
So for example, if you went tocollege and then you went, like
you went to those collegeprograms that when you get into
college, then you're gonna gointo medical school that's
already set up, or same thingwith nursing.
And a seven-year-old.
They even have the same thingfor PAs also.
I'm really interested because Iwant to know, like, usually for
(19:48):
those programs, like the firsttwo years, whether it's PA,
nursing, or even MD, you'rebasically in an undergrad
curriculum.
So the question is, are thosefirst year, those two years of
tuition, is it similar to aregular undergrad's tuition?
And does it go up once theystart taking those grad level
(20:09):
courses, nursing, PA, or even umuh MDDO, is it does it go up
once you start taking these?
Right?
That's what I want someone, ifyou're listening, if you're
listening, I want you to let usknow because that's that's
another bit of information thatwould help kind of clarify this
up.
But before we go into a rabbithole, because there's a lot of
conundrums that we don't know,but we do know that people who
(20:32):
are trying to get into schoolright now, particularly people
who, you know, don't come fromtrust funds, you know what I'm
talking about, people who comefrom certain demographics who
already were going to use loans,right?
Who were going to use loans toget through, this is just
another hurt, another hurdle,right?
So, you know, we're talkingabout getting private loans.
And I think that where thegeneral public may be like,
(20:55):
well, come on now, like if youreally want to get it, go and
get it.
The problem is is remember,private loans are not eligible
for PSLF.
Private loans, um, there's a lotof different uh benefits that
you get when you take out afederal student loan.
When you take out a privateloan, it's way more stringent.
You may not have the credit toget it.
They want their money quick, theinterest rates might be higher.
(21:18):
All of these different things.
And you already know the numberone complaint that a lot of
people have when they're in ahospital or when they go to the
ED is why does it take so longfor me to get seen?
A lot of times it's not thephysician, it's not the PA, it's
not the nurse practitioner who'sthere.
They're there.
It's just that you don't haveenough rooms to get these people
(21:38):
in, right?
There's not enough nurses toopen up more rooms.
You go upstairs, there's athere's patients in the ED who
have already been admitted,right?
And they can't get to theupstairs because there's not
enough nurses upstairs to takecare of these patients.
So as a result, there's morepeople in the waiting rooms.
So you already have a nursingshortage right now.
Imagine what this will do on topof that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:01):
So I'm going to say this that I don't know any I
don't know at any point in timewhen any decision has been made
by the government such thatanyone on the end of that
(22:24):
decision would end up makingless money.
There is usually some sort of,in other words, this
legislation, right?
We've heard, this is theargument, that this legislation
is coming into play so that.
(22:47):
Colleges decrease their tuition,i.e., make less money.
Yes.
I've never heard of regulationwhere any entity at the end of
that regulation ends up losingmoney.
(23:07):
So there is only one thing thatthis legislation could do, it is
to allow people to make moremoney.
And that's why I'm glad youbrought up the thing about
taking out private loans.
Because many students who go toschool don't necessarily have to
(23:28):
take out a large portion ofprivate loans.
Most of it is governmentfunding.
Federal, Stafford, unsubsidized,subsidized.
Parent plus loan might factorinto that.
unknown (23:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
Which is you take out parent plus loans?
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
Did your parents ever take out plus loans?
For undergrad or for med school?
SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
For undergrad.
I don't know.
I don't remember.
SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
I can't remember.
SPEAKER_01 (23:56):
But definitely, definitely for the colours.
SPEAKER_00 (23:58):
My parents took out for plus loans.
Oh yeah.
Which sounds like scores.
SPEAKER_01 (24:04):
The only other thing left, right?
The only other thing left is theprivate loans.
SPEAKER_00 (24:11):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
And so I'm like, well, did they get in the room?
Definitely colleges.
Colleges are definitely notlowering their tuition.
They're just not.
They're just going to be like,well, if you can't get it, I
need you to be more optimistic,Bev.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
I need you to be more optimistic.
Come on.
SPEAKER_01 (24:26):
Okay, that that's cute.
But colleges are not going tolower their tuition.
Because now you gotta remember,it costs something, it costs
something to run a college.
Now all of a sudden you're gonnadecrease.
That's like, honestly, that'slike being demoted at your job.
While you have a mortgage, youhave a gas bill, you have
electricity, you have X, Y, andZ.
(24:48):
You think the mortgage companyis gonna be like, ah, well,
since you got demoted, we'rejust gonna reduce your your
mortgage for you.
Nah, bruh.
Yeah.
That's not the way that happens.
They're not gonna decrease thecost of your house for you.
Like that's what I'm gonna do.
I can't remember the episode.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
I can't remember if, folks, I can't remember the
episode that we did it, butrecently we went over some of
the resources that med studentscan use to find out alternative
ways to finance education.
Because I'm telling you, uh, youknow, obviously with college not
backing down, you know, you'regoing to exhaust a lot of those
funds in college.
(25:23):
Then you throw on top of that anursing degree on top of that.
So you just gotta be ready.
You gotta be smart, you gottamake sure mom dukes, dad dukes,
got good credit, auntie,whatever.
You may have to do some hardwork.
SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
That's like getting them scholarships.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
You might have to do an all-in-one loan, all of these
different things, right?
Might have to do to make surethat you're ready to pay for
this education that you reallywant.
And um, hey, elections haveconsequences.
That's what I say.
SPEAKER_01 (25:50):
Let me say that in the short run, that is the
answer.
Right?
In the short run, that is theanswer.
But I'm gonna say that those ofyou who are going to college
now, if this is not a wake-upcall for potentially what you
are going to encounter when yourchildren get to college, which
(26:11):
may be this or maybe even worse,I'm telling y'all right now, if
you're going to college, if youhappen to get through caps and
all, if you happen to getthrough the importance of
financial literacy,understanding how money works,
understanding how to use yourmoney so that it works for you
(26:34):
and your family and yourchildren, beyond just I'ma get
this house and I'ma get thiscar, and I'm gonna get, you can
get all this stuff.
But at the end of the day, ifyou want to have generationally
your family be part of thelegacy of people who go to
(26:55):
college, get professionaldegrees, if that is your desire,
I'm gonna tell you right now,you better start really, really,
really thinking about how moneyworks and not just acquiring
things because perhaps, youknow, like me, you didn't
necessarily grow up with all theluxuries in life.
SPEAKER_00 (27:17):
So And that being said, hey guys, make sure you
check out all the resources thatare available.
Um, because you're gonna needit.
So, you know, whether it's uhprivate loans or learning how to
decrease the amount of studentloans that you're taking in
college.
This is real, this is real.
It's gonna hit you now.
I remember the days of yo, justtake a loan, you'll be all
(27:38):
right.
Yeah, you're gonna have to thinktwice, three times, four times
before you take out that loanbecause it may catch up to you
five years, seven years down theline.
So um, with that being said,let's change directions and
let's go ahead and take a break,and we'll come back and talk
about Wale's new album.
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