February 25, 2025 • 55 mins
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Unlock the secrets to a successful medical career with insights from Drs. Love and Uchenna Anani, esteemed Howard University College of Medicine alumni. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for budding medical professionals, shining a light on the importance of self-awareness, adaptability, and mentorship in navigating the winding road to residency. Dr. Uchenna Anani, an assistant program director in a pediatric residency program, joins us to share her priceless advice on how to present the best version of oneself while remaining true to one's personal and professional goals.
Ever wonder what it takes to maintain a spark of passion in the grueling world of medical school? This discussion goes beyond textbooks and test scores, emphasizing the pursuit of areas that truly pique your curiosity. We delve into how organizations like SNMA are essential in championing underrepresented students. Plus, we add a dash of humor with unlikely hobbies and draw surprising parallels between match day and sports drafts, proving that a medical education can still have its light-hearted moments.
The road to a medical residency is fraught with challenges, but our conversation provides a guiding light for those facing setbacks. We tackle recent changes in ERAS, the intricacies of signaling programs, and the tough realities of medical residency, including dismissals. This episode isn't just about professional hurdles; it's a candid look at the personal growth and the interpersonal skills necessary to thrive in the demanding medical field. So join us, and let this episode be your mentor in carving out a fulfilling path in medicine.
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SNMA Annual Medical Education Conference
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When you talked about introspection, that made me
(00:02):
think of a colleague of mine whospent seven years trying to get
into a residency program.
Finally, I was like you need totell me about one of your last
interviews.
The conclusion that I came towas that you are cocky and this
is why you're not getting intoresidency.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
So, introspection.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
How are you navigating your own personality?
I guess, beyond just the, Ichecked this box and I passed
the step three.
Listen, check boxes ain't goingto get you everywhere.
You got to learn how to relateto people.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Certain people.
We recommend mock interviews.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
You please sit down with somebody.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
And I tell people all the time cause they're like, oh
, you know, I want to be myselfa hundred percent of the time.
I don't want no program thatdon't want me I.
I get that, but they're alsomaking all these decisions and
you need to treat all of theselike first dates, you know yeah,
bring the best parts of you all, right, everybody, welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Welcome, welcome to another episode of docs outside
the box.
I am your host today, dr renee.
I'm flying solo.
Um, I kicked dr Ne off thepodcast and he is no longer with
us.
Okay, I'm just kidding.
Dr Ne may or may not be joiningus a little bit later, but
today we do have a very specialepisode for you all and we're
(01:17):
really excited to continue onwith the kind of partnership
that we have going with theStudent National Medical
Association, otherwise known asthe SNMA, which is an
organization that is near andvery dear to my heart, that I've
been a part of since I was astudent and continue as an
attending, being a part of, andwe are doing this particular
(01:40):
episode, or these series ofepisodes, to really commemorate
the 60th anniversary of theStudent National Medical
Association, which started in1964 at Howard University School
of Medicine, as well asMorehouse School of Medicine or,
excuse me, yeah, no, meharry.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Meharry, meharry.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Meharry.
I worked at Morehouse School ofMedicine, but the S&MA started
at Meharry School of Medicine aswell as Howard University
School of Medicine.
And the reason that you can ifyou're watching on YouTube that
our guests were smiling isbecause we have two guests with
us today that went to the HowardSchool of Medicine, right,
(02:24):
howard University School ofMedicine, and today we have back
Dr Love Anani, who was on ourprevious episode, I believe is
397.
And we are joined by his lovelywife, dr Uche Anani.
Anani, correct, yes, yes, okay,that was the one thing I didn't
check before we got on here.
(02:44):
No worries, dr Uche Anani aswell.
Dr Love Anani if you guyslistened to the last episode,
you'll know that Dr Love is anER doc and Dr Uche is actually a
neonatologist.
However, she is the assistantprogram director in a pediatric
(03:06):
residency program.
So I want to welcome you bothhere, because today we are going
to talk about career paths.
I know we all three have beenthrough career paths and you
know here on Docs Outside theBox, we often talk about, we
talk about money, we talk aboutpop culture, but when we do talk
about medicine, it often isabout the career path of
(03:29):
medicine and just how wenavigate that, and so that's why
we're talking with both of youtoday.
So, dr Uche, you see a lot ofresidents come through your
residency program.
Obviously, as an assistantprogram director, you know what
(03:51):
are some of the challenges thatyou would say that you see with
applicants.
So, before we get to the actualresidents, what are some
challenges that you see withapplicants coming through?
You know, coming through thatpath and trying to navigate
whether or not they're evengoing to even get matched to a
(04:13):
residency program.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
OK, that's a great question, kind of starting from
the beginning.
So I feel, like everyone, it'sa daunting path.
When you get into medicalschool it's like, ok, it's
survival mode, like let me justget through these like
preclinical years.
Now you get thrown into theclinical and you're like what
the heck?
And now I got to decide on aspecialty.
You know, I'm sure we'll talk alittle bit more about decisions
of like training program versusnot program you're like.
(04:46):
Okay, we'll say for example, Ithink I'm landing on P's.
How do I know that I will dowell in the specialty?
How do I know if I'll beconsidered a competitive
candidate, all the things right.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
And so.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I think the challenges those are kind of the
initial challenges right Likereally finding yourself of like
what's going to be well suitedfor me and have I gotten enough
exposure to make thatdetermination?
To be honest, it's just kind oflike, whatever lands with you
and whatever kind of sits withinyou I think it's helpful to
have.
I think it's never too late toalways have like a mentor, Like.
So I think it's easy.
It's very important to have amentor early on or people that
(05:14):
you feel that you can trust tojust talk it through right.
So I think it's important to beable to say, like I'm thinking
about this and these are thereasons why I'm interested in
this specialty, versus not, butalso, how do I align that with
you?
Know, what is my kind of likegoal as a person in terms of my
future Like, what's thelifestyle I want to live Like,
what are the things that areimportant for me outside of my
(05:34):
career that I also want to makesure I'm able to align my career
with that, and so I think it'simportant to be able to talk to
those, have those conversationsat a time.
So that's I think that's onething that I think um students
will struggle with and, I think,really being able to assess
their like.
Am I competitive or not?
oh, yeah, yeah, right and Idefinitely have a conversation,
(05:55):
or definitely have a lot ofconversations, a lot of
discussions with students whoare really trying to like get a
sense of that.
And that's where, again, I'mgoing to emphasize this probably
throughout an entireconversation is mentorship is
important Having people you canrely on to be able to have those
conversations and kind of workthrough the kind of mental
process of like what is thisreally going to be like for me?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
And and walk, walk through the hey you already know
who it is through the hey,technical, you already know who
it is, this is your boy okay forthose application so the reason
(06:39):
we're laughing folks, if youare not watching on youtube um
is because dr knee just walkedin here um trying to bogard.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
Kicking the door, waving the four, four, that's
what I did, how y'all doing Ifeel like brother man from the
fifth floor that's what youwalked in like remember me,
brother, man upstairs, fifthfloor that is true, that's
Speaker 1 (06:54):
true he can't hear you because I got my earpiece.
I'm just gonna hear what hesaid you walked in like brother
man from the
Speaker 4 (07:04):
fifth floor.
He said you walked in likebrother man from the fifth floor
.
So that's the best part aboutdoing a podcast is because it's
not like regular you know, CNNor whatever it may be Like, we
can have this type of crazyinterruption and still flow.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Keep it flowing, keep it flowing how y'all doing.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
We're good.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
We're good.
So, yeah, we were just talkingbefore you came and hijacked the
podcast, because I hadliterally already taken it over.
We were just talking about someof the challenges about
applying, or even getting to thepoint of application for
residents or for medicalgraduates, and one of the things
(07:39):
that Dr Uche talked about wasthe competitiveness right.
How do you even know you'recompetitive?
Do you even have a mentor?
You know what are the kind ofthe what's the pre-work that you
have to do before you get tothe point of even thinking about
what specialty you're going toapply to if you're competitive
to that specialty, and thenforget about, like, where
(08:01):
exactly you're going to be.
You know applying to.
Right Because that's a wholedifferent.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
That's a whole different thing.
Isn't it competitive readingthe US News and Reports, that
book that tells you everythingabout the med school?
That's being competitive, right?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
That's what we're talking about.
I used to believe.
I used to believe.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
I think that's one of the problems is working with
students as a mentor, what wetend to see a lot.
Oh, I got to do one thing realquick Before anyone emails us or
texts us.
We are very well aware we knowHoward goes by Howard University
College of Medicine.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yes, howard University College of Medicine,
because we're a school ofmedicine people.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
You know our door is about to be, kicked down.
Yeah, I'm going to put theboards up.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
College of Medicine.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Right, but the board's up but college medicine,
trying to figure out what'scompetitive.
Unfortunately, a lot ofstudents try to get in the minds
of program directors andassistant program directors and
they try to assume what theseprogram directors want.
And everyone starts with thesame thing Scores, scores,
scores.
And we used to have an easierone, step one.
You take that after yoursophomore year.
(09:05):
You know exactly where youlanded.
That's pass, fail now, right.
So now everyone has shiftedtheir desire to be competitive,
or thought to be competitive,from step one to step two.
We're seeing students take thatearlier and there's a lot more
focus on that.
All the while, more studentsare failing step one now than
(09:26):
were before.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Than were before, which is really ironic yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
That's the stats, yeah, or the percentage has gone
up.
The percentage has gone up.
So it's kind of like butthere's no score now.
So the theory is are studentsnot putting that same fervor?
They were into step one,grinding every day, and now it's
just like oh, this pass, fail,I get to it when I get to it,
now grind for step two.
But at the same time, if youdon't pass that first time,
that's still a bad knock on you,right?
(09:50):
I don't know if you got a 250 onstep two.
You didn't pass the one thefirst go.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
They still see that yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know
it's funny because that was oneof the things that we talked
about a couple of years ago,when step one actually went to
pass, fail, my thought was, well, just move to step two and just
use that right, because numbersare very easy to cut off.
The problem with that, I thinkand Love you can speak to this
(10:15):
is that oftentimes students aregrinding for the score.
Students are grinding for thescore, but are they thinking
about all the other things?
Right, that pre-work that Italked about?
What is that pre-work besidesjust the score that is going to
make you competitive for aresidency program?
You know are?
Are students doing that andwhat is that pre-work?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
and a lot of students do that on the back end, right?
So the easy stuff isextracurricular, right?
That's what you on theapplication now.
Now you get a whole section.
You get to pick yourextracurriculars now, and now
the ERAS application highlightsthe extracurricular activities
you find the most interesting.
So now when people getapplications it's not just
scrolling through the list.
They can say, all right, what10 things now did you do
(11:03):
throughout men's school andwhich of these top three are the
most important to you and why?
Yes, and if that section is onesentence you played yourself,
we know you didn't really donothing, right?
So start.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
You can't put start in a podcast, or you can put the
time window, yes, and if youput something and it was a month
.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I was like I'm sorry, I'm not, that doesn't really,
that doesn't register.
Well, yeah, like if you onlycan, yeah, if you only did
something for a month and that'syour most meaningful experience
.
Like that's not going to lookright on the application.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
If you can show a story right Like oh, I was a
S&MA member my first year, I waschapter parliamentary in my
second year, nationalparliamentary in my third year,
speaker of the house the fourthyear they can see that like
stretch out and you can writeall of those things.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Mind you, I want everybody to know that that was
actually Dr Love's SMA resume.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
It was, it was, but I was able to string that along.
You can see that story ofleadership.
And it wasn't just like Uchesaid, like oh, I did this for a
month.
Like, oh yeah, I went to theSMA community service drive
every Halloween, okay, I'll tellyou if you use all the
characters we know you were thedoctor.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Dr Love how you know my CV?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I do think it's also important to know that everyone
comes from a different like kindof like place in life and like
a different background, right?
So, like some people may thrivein terms of doing like
extracurricular activities thatalign with their like passion,
their goals, others might belike, listen, I'm focused on
just trying to get through classbecause I have all these other
needs I have to do that arepriority Right, whether it be
(12:41):
family or support, whatever, andI think that's also important
too and that can still comeacross very positively in your
application.
But that's where I feel likeyou need that advisor or that
mentor early on to be like okay,this is what I'm interested in
doing.
How do I make sure I'm doingaligning my pre-work or what
I've done thus far to reallyshowcase.
(13:03):
This is why I would be a strongcandidate in whatever specialty
that may be.
So you don't have to be someonebecause I was not SMA anything,
whatever she wasn't, but let meadd her up for a second.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Right, you put the word pediatrics in everything,
and Uche was there, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I mean yes, the.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Pediatric Association president, uche throwing a
pediatric residency.
Fair, uche, you know.
Going to national conferences,uche, who's the first one to go
to nationals or not nationals,children's?
Speaker 4 (13:30):
national.
Exactly Whatever your passionis, we'll show through Anything,
but going to pediatrics.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
So if that's your passion, then you'll show
through and spend the time onthat.
Right right.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
But don't let your passion be getting a 245.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yes, yeah, but don't let your passion be getting a
245.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Yes, yes.
So basically what?
Everybody who's listeningexactly if you're really
passionate about something, justdouble down on that you know,
don't make it up as you go andsay, well, I'm going to pick up
crayon or basket weaving andshow that off.
No like if you're passionateabout pediatrics and you're not
passionate about something else.
Focus on pediatrics, or whathave you?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
yeah, yeah, and I find a lot of students you're
passionate about pediatrics andyou're not passionate about
something else focus onpediatrics or what have you yeah
?
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Yeah, and I find a lot of students.
You're waiting for that day.
You want to see somebody getbasket weaving.
Yes, everyone always makesjokes about basket weaving.
I swear one day it will show up.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
You know someone's listening right now, like
underwater, like what Somebodyhas it.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I know Exactly.
I was like I'm pretty surethey're out there.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Knee.
I can't with you anymore.
I really just can't.
Somebody going to come up fromunderwater knee?
You're like yo.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
I'm basket weaving.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Anywho.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
That's the joke.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Exactly.
Underwater basket weaving isalways the joke.
Somebody, someone is awesome atit and I'm waiting to see that
person.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, but no, that that's really good to know, that
it's so important.
And I'm sure, dr Uche, you seethat as part of the application
process, right.
So now we're, you know, now, aswe kind of go through the
process, you're looking atapplications, saying, ok, well,
what, what is actually here?
You're looking at applicationssaying, okay, well, what is
actually here, what's ofsubstance here?
And sometimes students canreally portray their stories
(15:11):
very, very well.
Other times it's kind of like,well, this chronological
timeline of just all of theacademic things that they did,
essentially repeating their CValmost verbatim, but just in a
story which really doesn'tnecessarily bode well, and I but
it's tough though, like if youdon't have any experience, kind
(15:34):
of showcasing yourself, right,if you're just, I work hard, I
study hard.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Now, in essence, I got to brag about myself or at
least like write an essay orsomething in a fashion that,
like I, have to almost like be amind reader.
That's a really tough thing,particularly like someone where
we came from right, like youknow, where you like, like we
don't get taught those type ofthings, so it can be a really
tough thing to not just likehave verbal spaghetti and
(16:01):
regurgitate your CV.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Absolutely, absolutely.
No, I I mean.
But, dr Uche, you mentionedalso, this is where mentoring
comes in.
Yes, right, this is wherementoring comes in.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
This is where mentoring comes in for sure.
Yeah, and I will say honestly,I think to give a plug to SNMA
and Tour for Diversity, I wasjust going to say that those are
avenues for students,particularly those who are of us
who are underrepresented,considered like historically
(16:32):
marginalized, whatever, that youcan access the programs through
those organizations to reallyget access to mentors, advisors
and ask those questions early ontoo and just get the guide of
just, or even to just understandthe process as a whole, right
Cause you don't know what youknow.
You know you don't know whatyou don't know.
Right, so I think it's importantto like be able to just have
that plug in early, because thenyou can like get the exposure
(16:55):
and be like oh, okay, I didn'tknow, I need to like phrase my
application in this way.
Or you know, this is how Ishould like think about my
personal statement.
Or, oh, I didn't realize thatsomething that was a strength of
mine, oh, I can.
I can actually put that on myapplication.
Like I do that, yes, right, andthat's where I feel like it's
important to like just havepeople you know and trust that
you can just rely on.
I mean like hey, do you mind?
(17:16):
Um, not just me and my mentor,but just I.
Just I want, I want to seekadvice.
I talk to you from time to timeand just check in.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And let me piggyback off of that right, Like we
always joke, that match day isthe draft for med school and
residency right, what do you?
Do.
When you know you're going toenter the draft, you go and get
an agent.
Right, that's a good one.
Don't just show up, that's agood one.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
Yeah, dr Love listen to our show.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I like that.
Come some good stories.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Dr Love, you are encroaching very, very closely
to something that I have kind ofon my back burner right Okay
exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Go and get your agent people Go and get your mentor.
I got kicked off as a co-hostNow.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Dr Love my co-host, my co host.
Yeah, I need a new co-host.
Dr Love my co-host, my co-host.
Yeah, I need a new co-host.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
It's funny you mentioned that, right, and I
also think it needs to bereversed.
Like mentors, like if you'relistening and you're mentoring a
student, like have the patience.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Do constructive criticism, like if you see an
essay that, yes, I mean you're10 years out or five years out,
and that essay doesn't, you know, keep up to par, so to speak.
Don't clown them, you know.
Support them.
Because, I'll be really honestwith you, I didn't tell anybody
this, but my medical schoolessay and my residency essay was
basically a version of my highschool essay that I used to get
(18:37):
into college, and I had a mentorwho helped me get into a summer
program while I was in highschool who said, no, you need to
rewrite your essay so that youcan get into this program.
And then what I did is I usedthat format to change into a
college admission essay, andthen I was doing the same thing,
not talking to anybody, and soin four years, I just never
updated it, and then anotherfour years I.
(18:58):
So for me, I was just workingwith this outdated essay, but it
worked once will not work again.
And I felt a little embarrassedto kind of talk to people and
say, hey, can you help me withmy writing?
Like I don't know if I'mwriting something.
Okay, that's what I'm talkingabout you know, just to have
someone say okay, let me take alook.
You know, maybe we should changethis.
(19:18):
Maybe you need to talk moreabout this extracurricular
activity or maybe tell us moreabout your story.
Those are the type of thingsthe reps that I think a mentor
could really help out at,because there's a lot of people
floating around with those typesof stories.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, oh, I mean, it becomes very, very challenging
to know what, like you said,what you don't know, especially
if it worked before and youthink it's going to work again.
So, you know.
Now let's talk also about nowthat you've applied.
You've gone to the draft day.
(19:52):
You up, you up, it's time forthe draft.
You open that email.
For us it was open the envelope.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I don't know if they still send out envelopes.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Howard College of Medicine does so.
You open up your envelope.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
Open up your email and you ain't get in.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
No, no, no, I'm talking about the actual day,
like that.
What is it the Wednesday or theMonday?
What is it Monday?
Speaker 4 (20:21):
The Monday right.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
The Monday is when you find out whether or not you
actually got in.
Then by the Friday you find outwhere you're going, when he
matched.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
remember that's when you're wearing a suit that still
has the tag on it becauseyou're like I gotta take it back
, right right?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Am I lying?
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Now.
So you didn't get in right.
I'm gonna tell you something twoyears ago that the match that
happened two years ago, I had noless than about five or six
unmatched students who called me, and of those five or six, only
one of them was I am, theothers were OBGYN.
(20:58):
Now I want to tell you thatthere was a very weird trend
going on at that time that Ifigured out Because everyone was
saying, well, I don't know,maybe I should do an extra year
at my school and do a researchprogram and then reapply.
And I was like, why is everysingle one of you telling me,
(21:22):
every single one the extra yearof med school?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Yes, every single one of you telling me every single
extra year of med school.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yes, every single one .
There was a post on instagram,tiktok something where somebody
did that and they had allwatched that post.
These are people who didn'tknow each other.
They had all watched that postand somebody posted that they
stayed an extra year and thenreapplied and then they got in.
So everybody was like that'sthe ticket how do you do that?
Speaker 4 (21:48):
like?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I'm gonna tell you why yeah, I'll shoot it to you,
yeah tell me about that.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
What was that?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
the theory on and hopefully she can shine a light
on the theory because she'sbehind the closed door.
But the theory on this side ofthe door in uh, reddit and on
all the mentor applications ormentor spaces, is that when you
apply to residency, you lookbetter when you are not a
graduate of medical schoolversus a graduate reapplying
(22:17):
because you already have an MDDOdegree.
There are some schoolstheoretically I don't know, I
can't say they have filters onpeople who have their degree
already.
So, when you're a student, theylook at you as a student still.
So, even though you could havegraduated, you say no, I'm going
to take this research year.
Your school does not confer onyou that MD degree or DO degree.
(22:40):
You go back and you reapply inthe match again as a student.
Therefore, you're notreapplying as a graduate and
it's thought that you lookbetter when you're applying as a
student.
Now I'll kick it to someone onthat.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Dr Boucher what?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
say you what say?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
you, I need to know.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I think there's some stats behind it and I think
there's also some kind ofgeneral background.
So I think the caveat is thatthere is data through NRMP that
shows that there's a highermatch rate into certain
specialties if you are agraduating fourth year or
graduating student, as opposedto you were already graduated
and now you've completed yourdegree.
(23:17):
So the stats show that Part ofthat is it's large population
data, right, but it doesn'tnecessarily mean that that's
like the best fit for you as anindividual.
So I think that's again I'mgoing to say it again mentorship
, like that's where you connectwith those people to talk about
okay, this is what's happened.
Let me talk about, from apersonalized standpoint, what's
going to be best for me in termsof like reapplying next year,
if that's what I want to do, etcetera.
(23:39):
And do I, you know, stay onanother year, knowing the pros
and cons of like extending yourmedical career and more loans
and you know, et cetera?
I think the other thing to takeinto account is for and I'll
just speak from my personal lensLike I think it's important to
know that when you'retransitioning into a residency
program, that you haven't had alot of long time away from
(24:00):
clinical medicine, right.
So I think your letters whetheryou are, you know you didn't
match this year you'rereapplying this year you still
want to have letters that speakto your clinical acumen, like
how skillful you are in thatregard and knowing that you can
transition well.
So it's it's.
It is important to keep that inmind too if you are planning to
reapply, like I think, whetheryou decide to do a research year
(24:22):
, whether you decide to dowhatever that gap may consist of
, like knowing that you stillhave some connection to clinical
activity, observation,participation, so that you can
have letters, whether it be fromyour prior letter writers or,
more than likely, you need atleast one from like during that
gap year as well.
Yeah, that hopefully canreflect on you as an individual
(24:43):
growth potential, et cetera.
So that's kind of the.
That's my understanding.
I think, there's actually datathat kind of shows like oh, it's
probably a higher likelihoodfor me to match if I'm still a
graduating student as opposed tograduated.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Right, right.
Yeah, that's what I was goingto say, cause that's a lot of
just to do a research here.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Hey, do you want to talk about the money?
About the money?
Because, yes, these studentspop up and the reason why tends
to be a big deal, right?
So I would tell you one of thestudents I worked with last year
and then I'll tell about oneyear before.
So the one last year had notpassed step two.
So my recommendation was youneed to grind for two months
(25:28):
doing nothing.
So if you stay a student, youcan get those student loans up
front.
You know your rent is covered,your food is covered, you can
graduate later on.
And that was my advice to him.
Even though that price tag addson a year, you don't have to
worry about it.
Even though that price tag addson a year, you don't have to
worry about it.
You can do nothing, you're fine.
Another student I worked within the past just didn't match.
(25:50):
So I was like all right, do youknow anything else you can do?
Yeah, a buddy of mine says hecan get me a research position.
All right, well, graduate, stoptaking those loans.
Go earn money as a physician,technically, do that research
and then reapply.
So it just depends.
Like Uche said, what do youneed to do?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, yeah, because I felt like that year there was
like a one size fits all kind ofapproach with every single one
of these students who obviouslywere not all in the same boat.
They weren't even applying allto the same type of residency
programs, right, Social mediacould be dangerous right, oh
yeah, In one way you want socialmedia to inform people as many
(26:30):
people as possible about all theopportunities.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
But then, if they get stuck on that, one little piece
of advice.
We talking about student doctornetwork all over again.
Right, that is a form thatshall remain nameless.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah .
Speaker 1 (26:45):
But yeah, I mean the financial implications of just
that decision in and of itselfis just.
You know, it's just crazy,especially, especially if you
fall into a category where youdidn't actually have to do that,
like your second student, right.
You don't absolutely have to dosomething like that.
(27:07):
The other part of it, whenwe're talking about the money,
is even applying to residency,because you know that's hella
expensive, hella expensive,right?
And we did a presentation forNRMP a couple of years ago and
one of the parts of ourpresentation oh, you'll
(27:28):
appreciate this, dr Uche it wasin pediatrics.
There were some stats thatshowed that people who applied
to pediatric programs, if theyapplied to 13 or more programs
or, excuse me, if they apply tomore than 13 programs, that
their chances of getting into aresidency program did not
(27:52):
improve significantly at all.
And which is really interesting, because I will tell you the
number of people, includingmyself and this man standing
right next to me, who applied tolike 40 plus programs.
I mean that's a lot of money toyou know, throw into your,
(28:15):
throw into your education.
And my thing is, my question isespecially on your side, dr
Uche is you're getting so manyapplications?
What would you say is thepercentage of applicants that
you're even offering interviewsto right, because I don't
necessarily think people arethinking about that Like, yeah,
(28:36):
I'm going to put out 40applications, 50, 70
applications, but how manypeople?
Or what's the percentage ofpeople that these residency
programs are even offeringinterviews to, because you ain't
got room for everybody?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
No, you don't, you don't.
And even now that we'vetransitioned to virtual, I think
, which makes it maybescheduling a little bit easier
You're not doing that, maybedoing a little bit more.
So I want to say the ratio andthis is just me guesstimating,
but I want to say it's like one,like for every residency slot
that you have, you want tointerview X amount of number to
ensure the probability is highthat you fill all your slots
(29:13):
Right.
And so say, if you have 20programs or 20 slots, you want
to interview at least I want tosay at least eight applicants
per slot.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
So like eight to 10 is kind of the number I'm
thinking in my head, just basedon some of the numbers I've seen
.
So, yeah, so if you but you'rein a program, take, for example,
internal medicine, right,internal medicine programs see a
lot of applicants that comethrough and so they're in the
order of thousands but if youonly have 30 slots right and max
.
You're probably going to beinterviewing 300, 350.
(29:45):
And so, like you have two, 3000people who applied, you're only
getting like a fraction ofthose who are going to interview
.
So it's yeah, I mean it can bechallenging.
Now there are a lot of changeswith ERAS, with program
signaling which basically saysthat like I'm kind of
designating you as a programthat I'm interested in, would
(30:06):
like to go to, Is that the token?
Every specialty rather, it'snot the token the ERAS token is
to be able to apply into ERAS,which I don't really understand.
It should be like this register.
It's like a token, like aregistration token, but like.
Signaling is like when I applyto say I'm applying to 20
programs, but in pediatricsyou're allowed to signal up to
(30:29):
five programs that are your toppriority programs.
So you signal them and thatgives them an indication.
They're like oh no, I really amOut of all the programs I'm
applying.
I'm considering you one of mytop five and I want you to know
that.
And then programs can utilizethat information if they wish to
kind of help prioritize howthey want those they want to
interview.
Yeah, the theory was signalingwas supposed to take that old.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Hey, you're my number .
Speaker 1 (30:53):
One email You're my number one email you should send
out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
The signaling was supposed to take that out.
It still happens.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Right, it still happens.
How seriously is signaling?
Do you think, like howseriously, how seriously is
signaling, do you?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
think how seriously are programs taking signaling?
I think programs are taking itserious because I think, again
because of the changes with like, step one and like and I'll be
very honest, like I'm a hugeproponent of holistic
application review, like lookingat more of the holistic picture
of an applicant as opposed tolike just certain numbers and
metrics, it's another data pointto signal whether or not
(31:27):
someone may be interested incoming right.
It's not the only thing, rightthat was going to designate
whether or not you come for aninterview or not, but it's just
an additional data point.
It shows the interest andengagement and, depending on the
program, the specialty, thelocation, things like that, that
can carry a lot of weight.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
We have a friend who's a program director.
I won't put them on blastbecause I don't need their
numbers to go up, but she saidshe interviews everyone who
signals the program, unless yourapplication is just trash.
But if you have a standard,regular application and you
signal, you'll get an interviewinvite.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Okay, okay.
So that's good to know, that'sgood to know, that's good to
know.
So at least, at least you'reputting that particular resource
to good use.
Um, because before it was justa free-for-all and, like you
said, everybody was like you'renot, you're my number one.
It was like a horrible,horrible bachelor dating scene.
You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 4 (32:20):
does signaling cost more money.
Nope, nope, no, yeah, and itvaries for a specialty too.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Some specialties, like I'm, forgetting, like OB,
gold and silver signaling, andit's like an order of like 10 to
20.
I can't remember exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
But, yeah, as opposed to, like I'd mentioned, like
pediatrics and other specialties.
So it just depends.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yeah, yeah, okay, that's good to know their
specialty.
So it just depends, yeah, yeah,okay, that's good to know,
because I think, yeah, havingthat resource one might actually
help to decrease the number ofprograms that people are
applying to, which mightactually help them to save a
little bit of money.
I hope, I would hope.
I don't know what the stats areon that.
(33:03):
I guess NRMP will kind offigure that out.
You know, do like the five yearand then the 10 year and the 15
year.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
I'll be curious to know what the trend is.
I will say, with the transitionto virtual, I've seen, like
I've seen, the numbers go up interms of applications.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
But if you're at like a highly competitive place,
though'm sure everybody who'sapplying is exactly like if
you're at harvard right or ifyou're at another like
well-to-do establishment,whatever the specialty is.
People want to say you're mylike.
How do you even distinguishfrom that?
So right, I don't see whatharvard has always had those
problems right.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
It's the smaller places, like where our friend is
a programming director likedoesn't get as many, so when?
So when you do signal like youonly, let's use P's.
You only have seven.
If you use one of your seven,I'm going to go back to what I
used in the last episode.
It's six or seven.
I'm going to use the state Iused in my last episode, even
though I like that state Ifyou're in Idaho and you get one
(34:03):
six.
So yeah, it matters there.
Yes, harvard probably wonderswhy you didn't signal them Like
you didn't signal us when you at.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Am I not good enough?
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Yeah that's how.
Harvard uses signaling you didnot signal us, don't signal.
You got to make them like youmore.
There it is.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It's toxic, toxic academics there it is okay.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Toxic, toxic.
Academics, I would say the bestchange grinder of all eras,
from when we were in it to now,is not even on the student side,
I think it's on the programside.
Certain specialties like ob, umhave instituted dates where
they will tell applicants we aresending out interviews on this
date and we're sending outinterviews on this date.
If you don't get an interviewfrom us on one of these two
dates, you probably ain't comingExactly.
(34:51):
I think that has allowed somestudents to realize oh, I have
two OB interviews by the end ofthe season.
I might need to check thatfamily route right quick.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
People have been able to pivot a little bit more than
we have in the past, justhoping on a wish and a prayer.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
And that's the one thing that I always say to Renee
, because I know a couple ofpeople who and you probably know
some people who have graduatedfrom medical school don't have a
place to match.
They may do a traditionalinternship or a rotating
internship, depending on MD, doroute, and then they still can't
match.
And then maybe they go severalyears not matching and they're
(35:28):
just struggling in silence.
Nobody knows, right, right, andI just think that is one of the
saddest thing to have this typeof professional degree and not
either be able to train or notbe able to use your degree, but
you have hella debt.
No, right, yeah, I just I neverunderstood that right like
there's to be another way.
There's got to be multiplelayers to make sure that whoever
(35:49):
graduates with either MD or DO,that they can do something
productive in the healthcaresystem, whether they match or
not.
And I struggle with thatbecause we know somebody who's
gone.
Now what?
Seven years?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
now least seven years , probably more going from
traditional internship yeah, Ithink he's approaching about
eight years house officer, houseofficer, house officer.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Now the person is trying to get into a really hard
uh subsidy or residency andwe're just like yo, you need to
consider something that's alittle bit more realistic, and
they're like no.
But also, at the same time,we've seen the opposite, too,
where people are like yeah, I'mgoing to consider something
that's a little bit morerealistic from a specialty
standpoint, a residencystandpoint, and they still can't
(36:35):
get in.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And, I'm sure, a lot of.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
FMGs can understand what we're talking about.
It's like wait.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
How is it that they can't get a job like you have to
get these folks a job?
Speaker 1 (36:44):
yeah somehow some way yeah, you know you so kind of
you guys segued into the careerpath change right that people.
So there there's the career paththat people say, okay, I'm just
gonna change, right like I gotinto this residency program, I
don't be here no more.
(37:04):
This sucks, you know, I don'twant to do this specialty
anymore.
And then there's theinvoluntary change, meaning you
either didn't match or youmatched but you got kicked out.
And those things can be onevery differently navigated
(37:25):
because they hit you differently.
But two, like like me, wastalking about if, if there is,
if there is a an issue withtrying to figure out how to get
back into or how to even entertraining, then you're stuck in
this conundrum becauseoftentimes people don't tell
(37:47):
other people that they are stuckthere.
And that goes back to thementoring that you were talking
about again, dr Uche, with youknow, talking to your mentors,
identifying a mentor, but alsobeing very realistic about what
the mentor is telling you.
You know so, if you want to getinto a very competitive program,
but you've been out eight years.
Let's kind of talk telling youyou know.
(38:07):
So, if you want to get into avery competitive program, but
you've been out eight years,let's kind of talk about.
You know what's going on.
Do you have you seen, dr uj,because you are the assistant
program director how, what isthe approach to those residents
or those medical grads who mayeither have matched or left
their programs or thenon-traditional one, or got
(38:28):
kicked out, right, and thereason I'm not using
non-traditional is only becausethe non-traditional is so
different in each one of thosecases, you know.
So I mean what?
What's your approach?
Or are you even seeing a lot ofthat?
Speaker 2 (38:45):
So I can't speak from my own professional exposure.
I can speak from more personalexposure with friends,
colleagues and stuff who've gonethrough this process.
And you're right, it'sdifferent for everyone and it's
like again, you have to takethis kind of personalized
approach, really assess and say,ok, do I want to do this?
(39:07):
Do I want to go back?
If I do want to go back, whatare what?
What does that process looklike?
Do I find an open spotelsewhere?
Do I reapply, depending on whatlevel you know year you're in
in the training?
Do I consider another careerpath altogether?
(39:28):
And I think it's alsocomplicated by the fact of, like
where you are in life, likewhat are, what are the other
things that are going on thatyou need to be mindful of and
take into that equation whenmaking that decision.
Um, like, what opportunitiesare available?
Right like it might be, youknow if we're talking about.
We'll say, in turn, I just I useinternal medicine because
there's so many number ofprograms and lots available yeah
(39:51):
it may be available to do thatright To transition to another
place elsewhere, but for a morecompetitive, limited number of
slot specialty that may not bethe case.
So then I don't know.
I think it takes a lot of soulsearching.
I think it takes a lot ofintrospection.
I think it is a verychallenging decision and for
(40:12):
those who I know have gonethrough that pathway I know
those who've been able to getback in.
I know those who have not andhave decided upon a different
path and are completely happyand living their best life.
So it just depends on what youfeel passionate about and what
you're willing to, kind of like,commit to and do, Because I
(40:34):
feel like you usually have likeyour three big reasons, right.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
Big reason number one you did not pass some marker
that the program puts in frontof you right, I'll use step
three as a general example.
So you got removed from yourprogram.
Usually it's easier to reapplythere.
The program directors, theprogram still likes you.
It's just like, look, theycouldn't pass it.
If they can pass it now,somebody else should take them.
That's real easy.
Number two you didn't passrotations within your program.
(41:01):
That's a little harder, that'sa little different.
Right, that means you didn'tpass and someone failed you on
purpose within that program.
So now you get to ask forletters from that program to go
somewhere else and you failed.
So those when it's like thatsometimes, it's usually like you
really may want to switchspecialties.
And then number three is likeyou get moved out because you
(41:21):
harmed a patient, right Like ifit's a serious harm in the
program that lets you go.
That again can be a littledifficult to navigate because if
they have to report that that'sgoing to follow you no matter
what you do as a physician.
So those are the three bigcategories I've kind of
encountered in you know.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
I will also add too that I think it's not always
because I always lump those intolike that process of like
what's the word?
Not remediation, but maybe youguys understand what I'm saying
like where you encountered sometype of like process in the kind
of matriculation processthrough, through training, Right
, Like some interruption whereyou didn't meet the marker or
(41:58):
didn't meet the score orwhatever that may be.
But there are situations wherelife outside of you know,
residency changes and you'relike, well, I can't continue
because now this life thing haschanged and I need to either
pivot, like step away, maybecome back.
And for me, you know I interactwith a lot of people who are
(42:19):
starting families so like,sometimes obviously residency
should accommodate for parentalleave and et cetera for having
children.
But I know of people becausearound like family planning or
whatever that may be, aroundfamily, close family, that they
had to stop, they had to stepaway.
And so the question is obviously, like you know, jobs,
(42:39):
institutions, programs should beable to allow for you to take
that FMLA, that stop, and thencome back, but if it's something
that's gonna be more permanent,prolonged or like I need to
like move you know like I can'tstay here, what does that look
like, you know, and so makingthat decision, you know, is also
very equally hard.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yeah, and the financial implications of all of
that?
Right, you know very likelychance that you're going to have
student loans, you know, andwhatever you know, whatever job
you're going to get, it is verylikely that is not going to be,
you know, paid high enough foryou to be able to just zip
through your loans.
And so you know you feel thefinancial burden of that as well
(43:22):
.
And you talked aboutintrospection and that made me
think of that, made me think ofa colleague of mine years ago
who spent seven years trying toget into a residency program he
had never actually matched.
He was interested in a programin a specialty that was, I would
say, semi competitive I mean itwas, you know, one of the top
(43:45):
competitive ones but then kindof went, you know, went his way
like, navigated throughdifferent specialties, um, in
terms of applying every singleyear for about seven years and
about year six, year six.
He contacted me because he hadgraduated only the year after I
did.
I didn't realize that he wasnot in residency, and so when I
(44:09):
found out he wasn't in residencyI was like, oh my gosh, like
who's helping you do this?
He was like I was doing this onmy own, contacted my mentor and
was like listen, I need you tohelp me navigate this, because I
I don't even know.
You know, I don't even knowanything about this now one of
the things that we talked aboutabout this.
Now, one of the things that wetalked about was when you go to
(44:32):
an interview because he wasgetting interviews, he was
getting interviews.
Yeah, you see how your facejust went, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
I did Because it's like you know, okay, so then
that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Right, that's a ding, ding, ding.
So he's getting interviews.
Finally, I was like you need totell me about one of your last
interviews.
Yeah, and I won't put.
I won't put the whole story outthere, but long story short,
the conclusion that I came to,and that my mentor came to
listen to this same story, wasthat you are cocky, you're cocky
and this is why you're notgetting into residency.
(45:13):
Now his response to me wasyou're reaching, you're reaching
, and I'm like I'm not reaching.
And I had to tell him I wentthrough residency.
You didn't.
And I know that if youapproached my residency program,
the residents in my program, inthe way that you approach those
residents, we would annihilateyou and just be like done, go to
(45:38):
the program director and belike we don't want to work with
this person.
So, introspection, what are youdoing, especially if you're
getting interviews?
What are you doing, especiallyif you're getting interviews?
How are you navigating?
Your own personality, I guess,is kind of the way to think
about it, right, like, how areyou navigating through this
(45:59):
process beyond just the?
You know, I check this box andI pass the step three.
I check this box and I stillhave clinical experience.
It's like listen, check boxesain't going to get you
everywhere.
You have to.
You got to learn how to relateto people and sometimes, I think
, sometimes I think we're alittle bit reserved, even as
mentors, and telling people like, dude, your personality kind of
(46:22):
sucks.
And if that's the problem, thenI think and I think I don't
think that that's the problemfor most people, but I think if
that is the problem, especiallyif you have a very extended gap,
I think that's something thatneeds to be explored and it
needs to be approached verydirectly, you know.
So I just thought that that wasinteresting because you talked
(46:45):
about introspection, but Iwanted people to know it goes
beyond.
Just well, what steps did Itake?
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah, yes, yes, yes, and that's why certain people we
recommend.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
You know, and I know you know a lot about this Dr
Renee mock interviews you pleasesit down with somebody talk
let's see what your setup lookslike, let's see how this goes,
let's see how you come off.
And I tell people all the timecause they're like, oh you know,
I want to be myself 100 percentof the time.
I don't want no program thatdon't want me.
I get that, I understand that,but they're also making one of
(47:18):
these decisions and you need totreat all of these like first
dates.
You know you don't show up tofirst dates in sweats.
You know you're morecomfortable like that, right,
like you dress up.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
this is very, very similar right, yeah, bring the
best parts of you.
You know, it's, it's okay.
You know that you got we allgot parts of us that aren't the
best, yes, but you know that'snot.
That's not the thing that youactually want to showcase first
you know what I?
mean.
So I think that that's reallyimportant for people to
understand.
Now, for those of you who arenot watching, dr knee stepped
(47:48):
away again.
You already know who it is it'syour boy.
So I have hijacked the showagain, um, but no, I I really
enjoyed this, this discussion,um, because, like I said in the
beginning, we talk a lot aboutcareers in this, you know, in
(48:09):
this podcast, and I think it'simportant for people who are
listening, who are either, youknow, medical students getting
ready to graduate or residents,to understand that the end of
the road doesn't stop becauseyou don't match.
The end of the road doesn'tstop because you might have to
have a career change, becauseyou had to change to another
(48:30):
specialty or go to anotherprogram, like.
These are not ends of the worldor ends of the road for you,
but I think the most importantthing that you can leave with
here today is to understand thatyou need to get some mentoring.
You know, you really need to getsome mentoring and again, you
need to do that introspection tofigure out how are you
(48:51):
potentially anyway contributing?
How is you know, maybe thestars didn't align, but if your
gap is getting way bigger, youknow, then you have to start
thinking about what potentiallycould you be contributing to
make your situation not asdesirable as you want it to be.
So please understand that.
(49:11):
The other thing is yourresources.
We talked a lot here about theStudent National Medical
Association and one of thethings I will tell you all that
if I have a student who doesn'tmatch or who's afraid that they
might not match, that's anotherthing.
Preempt, you know.
Or who's afraid that they mightnot match, that's another thing
.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Preempt you know, preempt yourselves.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, we ain't got to be reactive.
What about preventive medicine?
Speaker 3 (49:35):
You know, how many interviews you had before match
day.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
That should tell you something right there, exactly
Preempt yourself, give yourselfsome, you know, preventive
academics, you know what I'msaying.
You know, and I tell everystudent I'm like, listen, if you
think this is going to be aproblem, you need to go to every
single booth at the S&MAconference which, by the way,
this year is going to be in NewOrleans.
(50:01):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (50:01):
the dates.
Love, you know the dates.
Yes, I always say Easterweekend, that way I don't mess
it up.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Easter weekend there you go, there you go.
Easter weekend Wednesday,thursday, friday, that way.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
I don't mess it up, it's the weekend.
There you go, there you go.
It's the weekend.
It's the weekend.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
It's the weekend, it's the weekend, it's the
weekend, it's the weekend, it'sthe weekend, it's the weekend.
It's the weekend, it's theweekend.
It's the weekend.
It's the weekend, it's theweekend, it's the weekend.
Issue Even if you are not yetgraduating preemptively, start
talking with people and figuringout what kinds of programs will
(50:34):
look at you, and don't go upthere and just get information
on their program.
They don't know you.
You got to get them to know you.
Right, people always who youknow.
It's like no, it's who knowsyou.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
And.
I will say, to hype it up again, march 28th through 31st, if
you think it's not that good,it's not that bad, sold out.
The booths are sold out for theresidency, for the med schools
and for the residency programs,yes.
So if you're a pre-med andyou're like I don't know if this
is worth it, again we are soldout.
(51:10):
There are programs on a waitlist.
Coming to talk to students atour conference For those in med
school thinking they want to getinto residency.
We are sold out, right?
Schools are having to coalesceinto one just to have enough
space, right, certain peoplehave a lot of space Shout out to
Northwestern.
(51:31):
You know, diamond, you know I'mgoing to have a person there,
but that is what I'm saying.
So, like Dr Renee said, if youeven think, man, I may need
someone on the inside to help myapplication across the finish
line.
This is where you meet thatperson.
You get them.
Your business card, yourLinkedIn website, get across
that finish line.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
Exactly Same thing for the pre-med students.
You know Dr Love just mentioned, you know, the pre-med
exhibitor fair is sold out,which means all of the spaces
for all the possible medicalschools that can be there.
I mean, they're all taken,taken up.
So that means that you need toget on down to new orleans and
(52:13):
figure out how you're going toget through every single one of
those schools and prepare yourspiel.
You know, talk to your mentorsbefore you go so that you know
exactly what you're going to do,exactly what you're going to
say.
Um, we're going to be out therealso, docs outside the box,
we're going to be out there also, docs Outside the Box.
We're going to be out there aswell doing a couple of episodes,
maybe some carpet interviews.
(52:35):
So if you want to chat with us,we'll be there.
But I definitely encourage allof you again, because we're so
focused on careers on thispodcast, to get out there and do
what you possibly can to moveyour career in the direction
that you want it to go.
Speaker 3 (52:53):
A little sunshine out there just a little bit, yeah,
yeah.
Get into residency, because onthe other side the doctor said a
hundred times I'm making ahundred to one that when you get
through residency, that's whenpeople start begging for you.
All right, those Ciao, ciao,let's see.
(53:16):
Actress, whatever subspeciality you want, you're
probably going to get it becausethe numbers are in your favor.
You want to do child immunology?
Go ahead.
You want to come down toNashville?
There are whole PEDSfellowships waiting for you.
Child Neurology wants you.
So just when you get to theother side, you are the
(53:37):
highlight.
So just make it through people.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
We're here to help you through that.
Yeah, that is a great thing toend on is that you are
definitely going to be wantedAin't.
No more begging.
The begging is over.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Because the odds are ever in your favor.
Speaker 3 (53:54):
Oh yeah, so get your key sweat on right now, be all
good, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Well, thank you so much, Dr Uche.
Dr Love, Dr Love, love havingyou here.
I wasn't here with you the lasttime, so this was really fun
for me.
Dr Uche, this is the first timewe're actually meeting.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
I know, like you know , talking to each other.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yes, yeah, yeah so, but I enjoyed having you both on
this was such a great topic todiscuss and especially your
expertise as an assistantprogram director.
We really, really appreciatethat and I hope people you know
take everything that we'vetalked about today and hopefully
apply it however you can toyour situation.
(54:40):
So we will see you at the SMAconference Easter weekend.
People, we're going gonna saypeace, peace.
When you talked about introspection, that made me
(00:02):
think of a colleague of mine whospent seven years trying to get
into a residency program.
Finally, I was like you need totell me about one of your last
interviews.
The conclusion that I came towas that you are cocky and this
is why you're not getting intoresidency.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
So, introspection.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
How are you navigating your own personality?
I guess, beyond just the, Ichecked this box and I passed
the step three.
Listen, check boxes ain't goingto get you everywhere.
You got to learn how to relateto people.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Certain people.
We recommend mock interviews.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
You please sit down with somebody.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
And I tell people all the time cause they're like, oh
, you know, I want to be myselfa hundred percent of the time.
I don't want no program thatdon't want me I.
I get that, but they're alsomaking all these decisions and
you need to treat all of theselike first dates, you know yeah,
bring the best parts of you all, right, everybody, welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Welcome, welcome to another episode of docs outside
the box.
I am your host today, dr renee.
I'm flying solo.
Um, I kicked dr Ne off thepodcast and he is no longer with
us.
Okay, I'm just kidding.
Dr Ne may or may not be joiningus a little bit later, but
today we do have a very specialepisode for you all and we're
(01:17):
really excited to continue onwith the kind of partnership
that we have going with theStudent National Medical
Association, otherwise known asthe SNMA, which is an
organization that is near andvery dear to my heart, that I've
been a part of since I was astudent and continue as an
attending, being a part of, andwe are doing this particular
(01:40):
episode, or these series ofepisodes, to really commemorate
the 60th anniversary of theStudent National Medical
Association, which started in1964 at Howard University School
of Medicine, as well asMorehouse School of Medicine or,
excuse me, yeah, no, meharry.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Meharry, meharry.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Meharry.
I worked at Morehouse School ofMedicine, but the S&MA started
at Meharry School of Medicine aswell as Howard University
School of Medicine.
And the reason that you can ifyou're watching on YouTube that
our guests were smiling isbecause we have two guests with
us today that went to the HowardSchool of Medicine, right,
(02:24):
howard University School ofMedicine, and today we have back
Dr Love Anani, who was on ourprevious episode, I believe is
397.
And we are joined by his lovelywife, dr Uche Anani.
Anani, correct, yes, yes, okay,that was the one thing I didn't
check before we got on here.
(02:44):
No worries, dr Uche Anani aswell.
Dr Love Anani if you guyslistened to the last episode,
you'll know that Dr Love is anER doc and Dr Uche is actually a
neonatologist.
However, she is the assistantprogram director in a pediatric
(03:06):
residency program.
So I want to welcome you bothhere, because today we are going
to talk about career paths.
I know we all three have beenthrough career paths and you
know here on Docs Outside theBox, we often talk about, we
talk about money, we talk aboutpop culture, but when we do talk
about medicine, it often isabout the career path of
(03:29):
medicine and just how wenavigate that, and so that's why
we're talking with both of youtoday.
So, dr Uche, you see a lot ofresidents come through your
residency program.
Obviously, as an assistantprogram director, you know what
(03:51):
are some of the challenges thatyou would say that you see with
applicants.
So, before we get to the actualresidents, what are some
challenges that you see withapplicants coming through?
You know, coming through thatpath and trying to navigate
whether or not they're evengoing to even get matched to a
(04:13):
residency program.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
OK, that's a great question, kind of starting from
the beginning.
So I feel, like everyone, it'sa daunting path.
When you get into medicalschool it's like, ok, it's
survival mode, like let me justget through these like
preclinical years.
Now you get thrown into theclinical and you're like what
the heck?
And now I got to decide on aspecialty.
You know, I'm sure we'll talk alittle bit more about decisions
of like training program versusnot program you're like.
(04:46):
Okay, we'll say for example, Ithink I'm landing on P's.
How do I know that I will dowell in the specialty?
How do I know if I'll beconsidered a competitive
candidate, all the things right.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
And so.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I think the challenges those are kind of the
initial challenges right Likereally finding yourself of like
what's going to be well suitedfor me and have I gotten enough
exposure to make thatdetermination?
To be honest, it's just kind oflike, whatever lands with you
and whatever kind of sits withinyou I think it's helpful to
have.
I think it's never too late toalways have like a mentor, Like.
So I think it's easy.
It's very important to have amentor early on or people that
(05:14):
you feel that you can trust tojust talk it through right.
So I think it's important to beable to say, like I'm thinking
about this and these are thereasons why I'm interested in
this specialty, versus not, butalso, how do I align that with
you?
Know, what is my kind of likegoal as a person in terms of my
future Like, what's thelifestyle I want to live Like,
what are the things that areimportant for me outside of my
(05:34):
career that I also want to makesure I'm able to align my career
with that, and so I think it'simportant to be able to talk to
those, have those conversationsat a time.
So that's I think that's onething that I think um students
will struggle with and, I think,really being able to assess
their like.
Am I competitive or not?
oh, yeah, yeah, right and Idefinitely have a conversation,
(05:55):
or definitely have a lot ofconversations, a lot of
discussions with students whoare really trying to like get a
sense of that.
And that's where, again, I'mgoing to emphasize this probably
throughout an entireconversation is mentorship is
important Having people you canrely on to be able to have those
conversations and kind of workthrough the kind of mental
process of like what is thisreally going to be like for me?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
And and walk, walk through the hey you already know
who it is through the hey,technical, you already know who
it is, this is your boy okay forthose application so the reason
(06:39):
we're laughing folks, if youare not watching on youtube um
is because dr knee just walkedin here um trying to bogard.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
Kicking the door, waving the four, four, that's
what I did, how y'all doing Ifeel like brother man from the
fifth floor that's what youwalked in like remember me,
brother, man upstairs, fifthfloor that is true, that's
Speaker 1 (06:54):
true he can't hear you because I got my earpiece.
I'm just gonna hear what hesaid you walked in like brother
man from the
Speaker 4 (07:04):
fifth floor.
He said you walked in likebrother man from the fifth floor
.
So that's the best part aboutdoing a podcast is because it's
not like regular you know, CNNor whatever it may be Like, we
can have this type of crazyinterruption and still flow.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Keep it flowing, keep it flowing how y'all doing.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
We're good.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
We're good.
So, yeah, we were just talkingbefore you came and hijacked the
podcast, because I hadliterally already taken it over.
We were just talking about someof the challenges about
applying, or even getting to thepoint of application for
residents or for medicalgraduates, and one of the things
(07:39):
that Dr Uche talked about wasthe competitiveness right.
How do you even know you'recompetitive?
Do you even have a mentor?
You know what are the kind ofthe what's the pre-work that you
have to do before you get tothe point of even thinking about
what specialty you're going toapply to if you're competitive
to that specialty, and thenforget about, like, where
(08:01):
exactly you're going to be.
You know applying to.
Right Because that's a wholedifferent.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
That's a whole different thing.
Isn't it competitive readingthe US News and Reports, that
book that tells you everythingabout the med school?
That's being competitive, right?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
That's what we're talking about.
I used to believe.
I used to believe.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
I think that's one of the problems is working with
students as a mentor, what wetend to see a lot.
Oh, I got to do one thing realquick Before anyone emails us or
texts us.
We are very well aware we knowHoward goes by Howard University
College of Medicine.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yes, howard University College of Medicine,
because we're a school ofmedicine people.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
You know our door is about to be, kicked down.
Yeah, I'm going to put theboards up.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
College of Medicine.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Right, but the board's up but college medicine,
trying to figure out what'scompetitive.
Unfortunately, a lot ofstudents try to get in the minds
of program directors andassistant program directors and
they try to assume what theseprogram directors want.
And everyone starts with thesame thing Scores, scores,
scores.
And we used to have an easierone, step one.
You take that after yoursophomore year.
(09:05):
You know exactly where youlanded.
That's pass, fail now, right.
So now everyone has shiftedtheir desire to be competitive,
or thought to be competitive,from step one to step two.
We're seeing students take thatearlier and there's a lot more
focus on that.
All the while, more studentsare failing step one now than
(09:26):
were before.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Than were before, which is really ironic yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
That's the stats, yeah, or the percentage has gone
up.
The percentage has gone up.
So it's kind of like butthere's no score now.
So the theory is are studentsnot putting that same fervor?
They were into step one,grinding every day, and now it's
just like oh, this pass, fail,I get to it when I get to it,
now grind for step two.
But at the same time, if youdon't pass that first time,
that's still a bad knock on you,right?
(09:50):
I don't know if you got a 250 onstep two.
You didn't pass the one thefirst go.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
They still see that yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know
it's funny because that was oneof the things that we talked
about a couple of years ago,when step one actually went to
pass, fail, my thought was, well, just move to step two and just
use that right, because numbersare very easy to cut off.
The problem with that, I thinkand Love you can speak to this
(10:15):
is that oftentimes students aregrinding for the score.
Students are grinding for thescore, but are they thinking
about all the other things?
Right, that pre-work that Italked about?
What is that pre-work besidesjust the score that is going to
make you competitive for aresidency program?
You know are?
Are students doing that andwhat is that pre-work?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
and a lot of students do that on the back end, right?
So the easy stuff isextracurricular, right?
That's what you on theapplication now.
Now you get a whole section.
You get to pick yourextracurriculars now, and now
the ERAS application highlightsthe extracurricular activities
you find the most interesting.
So now when people getapplications it's not just
scrolling through the list.
They can say, all right, what10 things now did you do
(11:03):
throughout men's school andwhich of these top three are the
most important to you and why?
Yes, and if that section is onesentence you played yourself,
we know you didn't really donothing, right?
So start.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
You can't put start in a podcast, or you can put the
time window, yes, and if youput something and it was a month
.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I was like I'm sorry, I'm not, that doesn't really,
that doesn't register.
Well, yeah, like if you onlycan, yeah, if you only did
something for a month and that'syour most meaningful experience
.
Like that's not going to lookright on the application.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
If you can show a story right Like oh, I was a
S&MA member my first year, I waschapter parliamentary in my
second year, nationalparliamentary in my third year,
speaker of the house the fourthyear they can see that like
stretch out and you can writeall of those things.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Mind you, I want everybody to know that that was
actually Dr Love's SMA resume.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
It was, it was, but I was able to string that along.
You can see that story ofleadership.
And it wasn't just like Uchesaid, like oh, I did this for a
month.
Like, oh yeah, I went to theSMA community service drive
every Halloween, okay, I'll tellyou if you use all the
characters we know you were thedoctor.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Dr Love how you know my CV?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
I do think it's also important to know that everyone
comes from a different like kindof like place in life and like
a different background, right?
So, like some people may thrivein terms of doing like
extracurricular activities thatalign with their like passion,
their goals, others might belike, listen, I'm focused on
just trying to get through classbecause I have all these other
needs I have to do that arepriority Right, whether it be
(12:41):
family or support, whatever, andI think that's also important
too and that can still comeacross very positively in your
application.
But that's where I feel likeyou need that advisor or that
mentor early on to be like okay,this is what I'm interested in
doing.
How do I make sure I'm doingaligning my pre-work or what
I've done thus far to reallyshowcase.
(13:03):
This is why I would be a strongcandidate in whatever specialty
that may be.
So you don't have to be someonebecause I was not SMA anything,
whatever she wasn't, but let meadd her up for a second.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Right, you put the word pediatrics in everything,
and Uche was there, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I mean yes, the.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Pediatric Association president, uche throwing a
pediatric residency.
Fair, uche, you know.
Going to national conferences,uche, who's the first one to go
to nationals or not nationals,children's?
Speaker 4 (13:30):
national.
Exactly Whatever your passionis, we'll show through Anything,
but going to pediatrics.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
So if that's your passion, then you'll show
through and spend the time onthat.
Right right.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
But don't let your passion be getting a 245.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yes, yeah, but don't let your passion be getting a
245.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Yes, yes.
So basically what?
Everybody who's listeningexactly if you're really
passionate about something, justdouble down on that you know,
don't make it up as you go andsay, well, I'm going to pick up
crayon or basket weaving andshow that off.
No like if you're passionateabout pediatrics and you're not
passionate about something else.
Focus on pediatrics, or whathave you?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
yeah, yeah, and I find a lot of students you're
passionate about pediatrics andyou're not passionate about
something else focus onpediatrics or what have you yeah
?
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Yeah, and I find a lot of students.
You're waiting for that day.
You want to see somebody getbasket weaving.
Yes, everyone always makesjokes about basket weaving.
I swear one day it will show up.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
You know someone's listening right now, like
underwater, like what Somebodyhas it.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I know Exactly.
I was like I'm pretty surethey're out there.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Knee.
I can't with you anymore.
I really just can't.
Somebody going to come up fromunderwater knee?
You're like yo.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
I'm basket weaving.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Anywho.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
That's the joke.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Exactly.
Underwater basket weaving isalways the joke.
Somebody, someone is awesome atit and I'm waiting to see that
person.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, but no, that that's really good to know, that
it's so important.
And I'm sure, dr Uche, you seethat as part of the application
process, right.
So now we're, you know, now, aswe kind of go through the
process, you're looking atapplications, saying, ok, well,
what, what is actually here?
You're looking at applicationssaying, okay, well, what is
actually here, what's ofsubstance here?
And sometimes students canreally portray their stories
(15:11):
very, very well.
Other times it's kind of like,well, this chronological
timeline of just all of theacademic things that they did,
essentially repeating their CValmost verbatim, but just in a
story which really doesn'tnecessarily bode well, and I but
it's tough though, like if youdon't have any experience, kind
(15:34):
of showcasing yourself, right,if you're just, I work hard, I
study hard.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Now, in essence, I got to brag about myself or at
least like write an essay orsomething in a fashion that,
like I, have to almost like be amind reader.
That's a really tough thing,particularly like someone where
we came from right, like youknow, where you like, like we
don't get taught those type ofthings, so it can be a really
tough thing to not just likehave verbal spaghetti and
(16:01):
regurgitate your CV.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Absolutely, absolutely.
No, I I mean.
But, dr Uche, you mentionedalso, this is where mentoring
comes in.
Yes, right, this is wherementoring comes in.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
This is where mentoring comes in for sure.
Yeah, and I will say honestly,I think to give a plug to SNMA
and Tour for Diversity, I wasjust going to say that those are
avenues for students,particularly those who are of us
who are underrepresented,considered like historically
(16:32):
marginalized, whatever, that youcan access the programs through
those organizations to reallyget access to mentors, advisors
and ask those questions early ontoo and just get the guide of
just, or even to just understandthe process as a whole, right
Cause you don't know what youknow.
You know you don't know whatyou don't know.
Right, so I think it's importantto like be able to just have
that plug in early, because thenyou can like get the exposure
(16:55):
and be like oh, okay, I didn'tknow, I need to like phrase my
application in this way.
Or you know, this is how Ishould like think about my
personal statement.
Or, oh, I didn't realize thatsomething that was a strength of
mine, oh, I can.
I can actually put that on myapplication.
Like I do that, yes, right, andthat's where I feel like it's
important to like just havepeople you know and trust that
you can just rely on.
I mean like hey, do you mind?
(17:16):
Um, not just me and my mentor,but just I.
Just I want, I want to seekadvice.
I talk to you from time to timeand just check in.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And let me piggyback off of that right, Like we
always joke, that match day isthe draft for med school and
residency right, what do you?
Do.
When you know you're going toenter the draft, you go and get
an agent.
Right, that's a good one.
Don't just show up, that's agood one.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
Yeah, dr Love listen to our show.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I like that.
Come some good stories.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Dr Love, you are encroaching very, very closely
to something that I have kind ofon my back burner right Okay
exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Go and get your agent people Go and get your mentor.
I got kicked off as a co-hostNow.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Dr Love my co-host, my co host.
Yeah, I need a new co-host.
Dr Love my co-host, my co-host.
Yeah, I need a new co-host.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
It's funny you mentioned that, right, and I
also think it needs to bereversed.
Like mentors, like if you'relistening and you're mentoring a
student, like have the patience.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Do constructive criticism, like if you see an
essay that, yes, I mean you're10 years out or five years out,
and that essay doesn't, you know, keep up to par, so to speak.
Don't clown them, you know.
Support them.
Because, I'll be really honestwith you, I didn't tell anybody
this, but my medical schoolessay and my residency essay was
basically a version of my highschool essay that I used to get
(18:37):
into college, and I had a mentorwho helped me get into a summer
program while I was in highschool who said, no, you need to
rewrite your essay so that youcan get into this program.
And then what I did is I usedthat format to change into a
college admission essay, andthen I was doing the same thing,
not talking to anybody, and soin four years, I just never
updated it, and then anotherfour years I.
(18:58):
So for me, I was just workingwith this outdated essay, but it
worked once will not work again.
And I felt a little embarrassedto kind of talk to people and
say, hey, can you help me withmy writing?
Like I don't know if I'mwriting something.
Okay, that's what I'm talkingabout you know, just to have
someone say okay, let me take alook.
You know, maybe we should changethis.
(19:18):
Maybe you need to talk moreabout this extracurricular
activity or maybe tell us moreabout your story.
Those are the type of thingsthe reps that I think a mentor
could really help out at,because there's a lot of people
floating around with those typesof stories.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yeah, oh, I mean, it becomes very, very challenging
to know what, like you said,what you don't know, especially
if it worked before and youthink it's going to work again.
So, you know.
Now let's talk also about nowthat you've applied.
You've gone to the draft day.
(19:52):
You up, you up, it's time forthe draft.
You open that email.
For us it was open the envelope.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I don't know if they still send out envelopes.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Howard College of Medicine does so.
You open up your envelope.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
Open up your email and you ain't get in.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
No, no, no, I'm talking about the actual day,
like that.
What is it the Wednesday or theMonday?
What is it Monday?
Speaker 4 (20:21):
The Monday right.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
The Monday is when you find out whether or not you
actually got in.
Then by the Friday you find outwhere you're going, when he
matched.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
remember that's when you're wearing a suit that still
has the tag on it becauseyou're like I gotta take it back
, right right?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Am I lying?
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Now.
So you didn't get in right.
I'm gonna tell you something twoyears ago that the match that
happened two years ago, I had noless than about five or six
unmatched students who called me, and of those five or six, only
one of them was I am, theothers were OBGYN.
(20:58):
Now I want to tell you thatthere was a very weird trend
going on at that time that Ifigured out Because everyone was
saying, well, I don't know,maybe I should do an extra year
at my school and do a researchprogram and then reapply.
And I was like, why is everysingle one of you telling me,
(21:22):
every single one the extra yearof med school?
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Yes, every single one of you telling me every single
extra year of med school.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yes, every single one .
There was a post on instagram,tiktok something where somebody
did that and they had allwatched that post.
These are people who didn'tknow each other.
They had all watched that postand somebody posted that they
stayed an extra year and thenreapplied and then they got in.
So everybody was like that'sthe ticket how do you do that?
Speaker 4 (21:48):
like?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I'm gonna tell you why yeah, I'll shoot it to you,
yeah tell me about that.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
What was that?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
the theory on and hopefully she can shine a light
on the theory because she'sbehind the closed door.
But the theory on this side ofthe door in uh, reddit and on
all the mentor applications ormentor spaces, is that when you
apply to residency, you lookbetter when you are not a
graduate of medical schoolversus a graduate reapplying
(22:17):
because you already have an MDDOdegree.
There are some schoolstheoretically I don't know, I
can't say they have filters onpeople who have their degree
already.
So, when you're a student, theylook at you as a student still.
So, even though you could havegraduated, you say no, I'm going
to take this research year.
Your school does not confer onyou that MD degree or DO degree.
(22:40):
You go back and you reapply inthe match again as a student.
Therefore, you're notreapplying as a graduate and
it's thought that you lookbetter when you're applying as a
student.
Now I'll kick it to someone onthat.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Dr Boucher what?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
say you what say?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
you, I need to know.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I think there's some stats behind it and I think
there's also some kind ofgeneral background.
So I think the caveat is thatthere is data through NRMP that
shows that there's a highermatch rate into certain
specialties if you are agraduating fourth year or
graduating student, as opposedto you were already graduated
and now you've completed yourdegree.
(23:17):
So the stats show that Part ofthat is it's large population
data, right, but it doesn'tnecessarily mean that that's
like the best fit for you as anindividual.
So I think that's again I'mgoing to say it again mentorship
, like that's where you connectwith those people to talk about
okay, this is what's happened.
Let me talk about, from apersonalized standpoint, what's
going to be best for me in termsof like reapplying next year,
if that's what I want to do, etcetera.
(23:39):
And do I, you know, stay onanother year, knowing the pros
and cons of like extending yourmedical career and more loans
and you know, et cetera?
I think the other thing to takeinto account is for and I'll
just speak from my personal lensLike I think it's important to
know that when you'retransitioning into a residency
program, that you haven't had alot of long time away from
(24:00):
clinical medicine, right.
So I think your letters whetheryou are, you know you didn't
match this year you'rereapplying this year you still
want to have letters that speakto your clinical acumen, like
how skillful you are in thatregard and knowing that you can
transition well.
So it's it's.
It is important to keep that inmind too if you are planning to
reapply, like I think, whetheryou decide to do a research year
(24:22):
, whether you decide to dowhatever that gap may consist of
, like knowing that you stillhave some connection to clinical
activity, observation,participation, so that you can
have letters, whether it be fromyour prior letter writers or,
more than likely, you need atleast one from like during that
gap year as well.
Yeah, that hopefully canreflect on you as an individual
(24:43):
growth potential, et cetera.
So that's kind of the.
That's my understanding.
I think, there's actually datathat kind of shows like oh, it's
probably a higher likelihoodfor me to match if I'm still a
graduating student as opposed tograduated.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Right, right.
Yeah, that's what I was goingto say, cause that's a lot of
just to do a research here.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Hey, do you want to talk about the money?
About the money?
Because, yes, these studentspop up and the reason why tends
to be a big deal, right?
So I would tell you one of thestudents I worked with last year
and then I'll tell about oneyear before.
So the one last year had notpassed step two.
So my recommendation was youneed to grind for two months
(25:28):
doing nothing.
So if you stay a student, youcan get those student loans up
front.
You know your rent is covered,your food is covered, you can
graduate later on.
And that was my advice to him.
Even though that price tag addson a year, you don't have to
worry about it.
Even though that price tag addson a year, you don't have to
worry about it.
You can do nothing, you're fine.
Another student I worked within the past just didn't match.
(25:50):
So I was like all right, do youknow anything else you can do?
Yeah, a buddy of mine says hecan get me a research position.
All right, well, graduate, stoptaking those loans.
Go earn money as a physician,technically, do that research
and then reapply.
So it just depends.
Like Uche said, what do youneed to do?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, yeah, because I felt like that year there was
like a one size fits all kind ofapproach with every single one
of these students who obviouslywere not all in the same boat.
They weren't even applying allto the same type of residency
programs, right, Social mediacould be dangerous right, oh
yeah, In one way you want socialmedia to inform people as many
(26:30):
people as possible about all theopportunities.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
But then, if they get stuck on that, one little piece
of advice.
We talking about student doctornetwork all over again.
Right, that is a form thatshall remain nameless.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah .
Speaker 1 (26:45):
But yeah, I mean the financial implications of just
that decision in and of itselfis just.
You know, it's just crazy,especially, especially if you
fall into a category where youdidn't actually have to do that,
like your second student, right.
You don't absolutely have to dosomething like that.
(27:07):
The other part of it, whenwe're talking about the money,
is even applying to residency,because you know that's hella
expensive, hella expensive,right?
And we did a presentation forNRMP a couple of years ago and
one of the parts of ourpresentation oh, you'll
(27:28):
appreciate this, dr Uche it wasin pediatrics.
There were some stats thatshowed that people who applied
to pediatric programs, if theyapplied to 13 or more programs
or, excuse me, if they apply tomore than 13 programs, that
their chances of getting into aresidency program did not
(27:52):
improve significantly at all.
And which is really interesting, because I will tell you the
number of people, includingmyself and this man standing
right next to me, who applied tolike 40 plus programs.
I mean that's a lot of money toyou know, throw into your,
(28:15):
throw into your education.
And my thing is, my question isespecially on your side, dr
Uche is you're getting so manyapplications?
What would you say is thepercentage of applicants that
you're even offering interviewsto right, because I don't
necessarily think people arethinking about that Like, yeah,
(28:36):
I'm going to put out 40applications, 50, 70
applications, but how manypeople?
Or what's the percentage ofpeople that these residency
programs are even offeringinterviews to, because you ain't
got room for everybody?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
No, you don't, you don't.
And even now that we'vetransitioned to virtual, I think
, which makes it maybescheduling a little bit easier
You're not doing that, maybedoing a little bit more.
So I want to say the ratio andthis is just me guesstimating,
but I want to say it's like one,like for every residency slot
that you have, you want tointerview X amount of number to
ensure the probability is highthat you fill all your slots
(29:13):
Right.
And so say, if you have 20programs or 20 slots, you want
to interview at least I want tosay at least eight applicants
per slot.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
So like eight to 10 is kind of the number I'm
thinking in my head, just basedon some of the numbers I've seen
.
So, yeah, so if you but you'rein a program, take, for example,
internal medicine, right,internal medicine programs see a
lot of applicants that comethrough and so they're in the
order of thousands but if youonly have 30 slots right and max
.
You're probably going to beinterviewing 300, 350.
(29:45):
And so, like you have two, 3000people who applied, you're only
getting like a fraction ofthose who are going to interview
.
So it's yeah, I mean it can bechallenging.
Now there are a lot of changeswith ERAS, with program
signaling which basically saysthat like I'm kind of
designating you as a programthat I'm interested in, would
(30:06):
like to go to, Is that the token?
Every specialty rather, it'snot the token the ERAS token is
to be able to apply into ERAS,which I don't really understand.
It should be like this register.
It's like a token, like aregistration token, but like.
Signaling is like when I applyto say I'm applying to 20
programs, but in pediatricsyou're allowed to signal up to
(30:29):
five programs that are your toppriority programs.
So you signal them and thatgives them an indication.
They're like oh no, I really amOut of all the programs I'm
applying.
I'm considering you one of mytop five and I want you to know
that.
And then programs can utilizethat information if they wish to
kind of help prioritize howthey want those they want to
interview.
Yeah, the theory was signalingwas supposed to take that old.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Hey, you're my number .
Speaker 1 (30:53):
One email You're my number one email you should send
out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
The signaling was supposed to take that out.
It still happens.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Right, it still happens.
How seriously is signaling?
Do you think, like howseriously, how seriously is
signaling, do you?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
think how seriously are programs taking signaling?
I think programs are taking itserious because I think, again
because of the changes with like, step one and like and I'll be
very honest, like I'm a hugeproponent of holistic
application review, like lookingat more of the holistic picture
of an applicant as opposed tolike just certain numbers and
metrics, it's another data pointto signal whether or not
(31:27):
someone may be interested incoming right.
It's not the only thing, rightthat was going to designate
whether or not you come for aninterview or not, but it's just
an additional data point.
It shows the interest andengagement and, depending on the
program, the specialty, thelocation, things like that, that
can carry a lot of weight.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
We have a friend who's a program director.
I won't put them on blastbecause I don't need their
numbers to go up, but she saidshe interviews everyone who
signals the program, unless yourapplication is just trash.
But if you have a standard,regular application and you
signal, you'll get an interviewinvite.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Okay, okay.
So that's good to know, that'sgood to know, that's good to
know.
So at least, at least you'reputting that particular resource
to good use.
Um, because before it was justa free-for-all and, like you
said, everybody was like you'renot, you're my number one.
It was like a horrible,horrible bachelor dating scene.
You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 4 (32:20):
does signaling cost more money.
Nope, nope, no, yeah, and itvaries for a specialty too.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Some specialties, like I'm, forgetting, like OB,
gold and silver signaling, andit's like an order of like 10 to
20.
I can't remember exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
But, yeah, as opposed to, like I'd mentioned, like
pediatrics and other specialties.
So it just depends.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yeah, yeah, okay, that's good to know their
specialty.
So it just depends, yeah, yeah,okay, that's good to know,
because I think, yeah, havingthat resource one might actually
help to decrease the number ofprograms that people are
applying to, which mightactually help them to save a
little bit of money.
I hope, I would hope.
I don't know what the stats areon that.
(33:03):
I guess NRMP will kind offigure that out.
You know, do like the five yearand then the 10 year and the 15
year.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
I'll be curious to know what the trend is.
I will say, with the transitionto virtual, I've seen, like
I've seen, the numbers go up interms of applications.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
But if you're at like a highly competitive place,
though'm sure everybody who'sapplying is exactly like if
you're at harvard right or ifyou're at another like
well-to-do establishment,whatever the specialty is.
People want to say you're mylike.
How do you even distinguishfrom that?
So right, I don't see whatharvard has always had those
problems right.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
It's the smaller places, like where our friend is
a programming director likedoesn't get as many, so when?
So when you do signal like youonly, let's use P's.
You only have seven.
If you use one of your seven,I'm going to go back to what I
used in the last episode.
It's six or seven.
I'm going to use the state Iused in my last episode, even
though I like that state Ifyou're in Idaho and you get one
(34:03):
six.
So yeah, it matters there.
Yes, harvard probably wonderswhy you didn't signal them Like
you didn't signal us when you at.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Am I not good enough?
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Yeah that's how.
Harvard uses signaling you didnot signal us, don't signal.
You got to make them like youmore.
There it is.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It's toxic, toxic academics there it is okay.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Toxic, toxic.
Academics, I would say the bestchange grinder of all eras,
from when we were in it to now,is not even on the student side,
I think it's on the programside.
Certain specialties like ob, umhave instituted dates where
they will tell applicants we aresending out interviews on this
date and we're sending outinterviews on this date.
If you don't get an interviewfrom us on one of these two
dates, you probably ain't comingExactly.
(34:51):
I think that has allowed somestudents to realize oh, I have
two OB interviews by the end ofthe season.
I might need to check thatfamily route right quick.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
People have been able to pivot a little bit more than
we have in the past, justhoping on a wish and a prayer.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
And that's the one thing that I always say to Renee
, because I know a couple ofpeople who and you probably know
some people who have graduatedfrom medical school don't have a
place to match.
They may do a traditionalinternship or a rotating
internship, depending on MD, doroute, and then they still can't
match.
And then maybe they go severalyears not matching and they're
(35:28):
just struggling in silence.
Nobody knows, right, right, andI just think that is one of the
saddest thing to have this typeof professional degree and not
either be able to train or notbe able to use your degree, but
you have hella debt.
No, right, yeah, I just I neverunderstood that right like
there's to be another way.
There's got to be multiplelayers to make sure that whoever
(35:49):
graduates with either MD or DO,that they can do something
productive in the healthcaresystem, whether they match or
not.
And I struggle with thatbecause we know somebody who's
gone.
Now what?
Seven years?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
now least seven years , probably more going from
traditional internship yeah, Ithink he's approaching about
eight years house officer, houseofficer, house officer.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Now the person is trying to get into a really hard
uh subsidy or residency andwe're just like yo, you need to
consider something that's alittle bit more realistic, and
they're like no.
But also, at the same time,we've seen the opposite, too,
where people are like yeah, I'mgoing to consider something
that's a little bit morerealistic from a specialty
standpoint, a residencystandpoint, and they still can't
(36:35):
get in.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And, I'm sure, a lot of.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
FMGs can understand what we're talking about.
It's like wait.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
How is it that they can't get a job like you have to
get these folks a job?
Speaker 1 (36:44):
yeah somehow some way yeah, you know you so kind of
you guys segued into the careerpath change right that people.
So there there's the career paththat people say, okay, I'm just
gonna change, right like I gotinto this residency program, I
don't be here no more.
(37:04):
This sucks, you know, I don'twant to do this specialty
anymore.
And then there's theinvoluntary change, meaning you
either didn't match or youmatched but you got kicked out.
And those things can be onevery differently navigated
(37:25):
because they hit you differently.
But two, like like me, wastalking about if, if there is,
if there is a an issue withtrying to figure out how to get
back into or how to even entertraining, then you're stuck in
this conundrum becauseoftentimes people don't tell
(37:47):
other people that they are stuckthere.
And that goes back to thementoring that you were talking
about again, dr Uche, with youknow, talking to your mentors,
identifying a mentor, but alsobeing very realistic about what
the mentor is telling you.
You know so, if you want to getinto a very competitive program,
but you've been out eight years.
Let's kind of talk telling youyou know.
(38:07):
So, if you want to get into avery competitive program, but
you've been out eight years,let's kind of talk about.
You know what's going on.
Do you have you seen, dr uj,because you are the assistant
program director how, what isthe approach to those residents
or those medical grads who mayeither have matched or left
their programs or thenon-traditional one, or got
(38:28):
kicked out, right, and thereason I'm not using
non-traditional is only becausethe non-traditional is so
different in each one of thosecases, you know.
So I mean what?
What's your approach?
Or are you even seeing a lot ofthat?
Speaker 2 (38:45):
So I can't speak from my own professional exposure.
I can speak from more personalexposure with friends,
colleagues and stuff who've gonethrough this process.
And you're right, it'sdifferent for everyone and it's
like again, you have to takethis kind of personalized
approach, really assess and say,ok, do I want to do this?
(39:07):
Do I want to go back?
If I do want to go back, whatare what?
What does that process looklike?
Do I find an open spotelsewhere?
Do I reapply, depending on whatlevel you know year you're in
in the training?
Do I consider another careerpath altogether?
(39:28):
And I think it's alsocomplicated by the fact of, like
where you are in life, likewhat are, what are the other
things that are going on thatyou need to be mindful of and
take into that equation whenmaking that decision.
Um, like, what opportunitiesare available?
Right like it might be, youknow if we're talking about.
We'll say, in turn, I just I useinternal medicine because
there's so many number ofprograms and lots available yeah
(39:51):
it may be available to do thatright To transition to another
place elsewhere, but for a morecompetitive, limited number of
slot specialty that may not bethe case.
So then I don't know.
I think it takes a lot of soulsearching.
I think it takes a lot ofintrospection.
I think it is a verychallenging decision and for
(40:12):
those who I know have gonethrough that pathway I know
those who've been able to getback in.
I know those who have not andhave decided upon a different
path and are completely happyand living their best life.
So it just depends on what youfeel passionate about and what
you're willing to, kind of like,commit to and do, Because I
(40:34):
feel like you usually have likeyour three big reasons, right.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
Big reason number one you did not pass some marker
that the program puts in frontof you right, I'll use step
three as a general example.
So you got removed from yourprogram.
Usually it's easier to reapplythere.
The program directors, theprogram still likes you.
It's just like, look, theycouldn't pass it.
If they can pass it now,somebody else should take them.
That's real easy.
Number two you didn't passrotations within your program.
(41:01):
That's a little harder, that'sa little different.
Right, that means you didn'tpass and someone failed you on
purpose within that program.
So now you get to ask forletters from that program to go
somewhere else and you failed.
So those when it's like thatsometimes, it's usually like you
really may want to switchspecialties.
And then number three is likeyou get moved out because you
(41:21):
harmed a patient, right Like ifit's a serious harm in the
program that lets you go.
That again can be a littledifficult to navigate because if
they have to report that that'sgoing to follow you no matter
what you do as a physician.
So those are the three bigcategories I've kind of
encountered in you know.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
I will also add too that I think it's not always
because I always lump those intolike that process of like
what's the word?
Not remediation, but maybe youguys understand what I'm saying
like where you encountered sometype of like process in the kind
of matriculation processthrough, through training, Right
, Like some interruption whereyou didn't meet the marker or
(41:58):
didn't meet the score orwhatever that may be.
But there are situations wherelife outside of you know,
residency changes and you'relike, well, I can't continue
because now this life thing haschanged and I need to either
pivot, like step away, maybecome back.
And for me, you know I interactwith a lot of people who are
(42:19):
starting families so like,sometimes obviously residency
should accommodate for parentalleave and et cetera for having
children.
But I know of people becausearound like family planning or
whatever that may be, aroundfamily, close family, that they
had to stop, they had to stepaway.
And so the question is obviously, like you know, jobs,
(42:39):
institutions, programs should beable to allow for you to take
that FMLA, that stop, and thencome back, but if it's something
that's gonna be more permanent,prolonged or like I need to
like move you know like I can'tstay here, what does that look
like, you know, and so makingthat decision, you know, is also
very equally hard.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yeah, and the financial implications of all of
that?
Right, you know very likelychance that you're going to have
student loans, you know, andwhatever you know, whatever job
you're going to get, it is verylikely that is not going to be,
you know, paid high enough foryou to be able to just zip
through your loans.
And so you know you feel thefinancial burden of that as well
(43:22):
.
And you talked aboutintrospection and that made me
think of that, made me think ofa colleague of mine years ago
who spent seven years trying toget into a residency program he
had never actually matched.
He was interested in a programin a specialty that was, I would
say, semi competitive I mean itwas, you know, one of the top
(43:45):
competitive ones but then kindof went, you know, went his way
like, navigated throughdifferent specialties, um, in
terms of applying every singleyear for about seven years and
about year six, year six.
He contacted me because he hadgraduated only the year after I
did.
I didn't realize that he wasnot in residency, and so when I
(44:09):
found out he wasn't in residencyI was like, oh my gosh, like
who's helping you do this?
He was like I was doing this onmy own, contacted my mentor and
was like listen, I need you tohelp me navigate this, because I
I don't even know.
You know, I don't even knowanything about this now one of
the things that we talked aboutabout this.
Now, one of the things that wetalked about was when you go to
(44:32):
an interview because he wasgetting interviews, he was
getting interviews.
Yeah, you see how your facejust went, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
I did Because it's like you know, okay, so then
that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Right, that's a ding, ding, ding.
So he's getting interviews.
Finally, I was like you need totell me about one of your last
interviews.
Yeah, and I won't put.
I won't put the whole story outthere, but long story short,
the conclusion that I came to,and that my mentor came to
listen to this same story, wasthat you are cocky, you're cocky
and this is why you're notgetting into residency.
(45:13):
Now his response to me wasyou're reaching, you're reaching
, and I'm like I'm not reaching.
And I had to tell him I wentthrough residency.
You didn't.
And I know that if youapproached my residency program,
the residents in my program, inthe way that you approach those
residents, we would annihilateyou and just be like done, go to
(45:38):
the program director and belike we don't want to work with
this person.
So, introspection, what are youdoing, especially if you're
getting interviews?
What are you doing, especiallyif you're getting interviews?
How are you navigating?
Your own personality, I guess,is kind of the way to think
about it, right, like, how areyou navigating through this
(45:59):
process beyond just the?
You know, I check this box andI pass the step three.
I check this box and I stillhave clinical experience.
It's like listen, check boxesain't going to get you
everywhere.
You have to.
You got to learn how to relateto people and sometimes, I think
, sometimes I think we're alittle bit reserved, even as
mentors, and telling people like, dude, your personality kind of
(46:22):
sucks.
And if that's the problem, thenI think and I think I don't
think that that's the problemfor most people, but I think if
that is the problem, especiallyif you have a very extended gap,
I think that's something thatneeds to be explored and it
needs to be approached verydirectly, you know.
So I just thought that that wasinteresting because you talked
(46:45):
about introspection, but Iwanted people to know it goes
beyond.
Just well, what steps did Itake?
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah, yes, yes, yes, and that's why certain people we
recommend.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
You know, and I know you know a lot about this Dr
Renee mock interviews you pleasesit down with somebody talk
let's see what your setup lookslike, let's see how this goes,
let's see how you come off.
And I tell people all the timecause they're like, oh you know,
I want to be myself 100 percentof the time.
I don't want no program thatdon't want me.
I get that, I understand that,but they're also making one of
(47:18):
these decisions and you need totreat all of these like first
dates.
You know you don't show up tofirst dates in sweats.
You know you're morecomfortable like that, right,
like you dress up.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
this is very, very similar right, yeah, bring the
best parts of you.
You know, it's, it's okay.
You know that you got we allgot parts of us that aren't the
best, yes, but you know that'snot.
That's not the thing that youactually want to showcase first
you know what I?
mean.
So I think that that's reallyimportant for people to
understand.
Now, for those of you who arenot watching, dr knee stepped
(47:48):
away again.
You already know who it is it'syour boy.
So I have hijacked the showagain, um, but no, I I really
enjoyed this, this discussion,um, because, like I said in the
beginning, we talk a lot aboutcareers in this, you know, in
(48:09):
this podcast, and I think it'simportant for people who are
listening, who are either, youknow, medical students getting
ready to graduate or residents,to understand that the end of
the road doesn't stop becauseyou don't match.
The end of the road doesn'tstop because you might have to
have a career change, becauseyou had to change to another
(48:30):
specialty or go to anotherprogram, like.
These are not ends of the worldor ends of the road for you,
but I think the most importantthing that you can leave with
here today is to understand thatyou need to get some mentoring.
You know, you really need to getsome mentoring and again, you
need to do that introspection tofigure out how are you
(48:51):
potentially anyway contributing?
How is you know, maybe thestars didn't align, but if your
gap is getting way bigger, youknow, then you have to start
thinking about what potentiallycould you be contributing to
make your situation not asdesirable as you want it to be.
So please understand that.
(49:11):
The other thing is yourresources.
We talked a lot here about theStudent National Medical
Association and one of thethings I will tell you all that
if I have a student who doesn'tmatch or who's afraid that they
might not match, that's anotherthing.
Preempt, you know.
Or who's afraid that they mightnot match, that's another thing
.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Preempt you know, preempt yourselves.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, we ain't got to be reactive.
What about preventive medicine?
Speaker 3 (49:35):
You know, how many interviews you had before match
day.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
That should tell you something right there, exactly
Preempt yourself, give yourselfsome, you know, preventive
academics, you know what I'msaying.
You know, and I tell everystudent I'm like, listen, if you
think this is going to be aproblem, you need to go to every
single booth at the S&MAconference which, by the way,
this year is going to be in NewOrleans.
(50:01):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (50:01):
the dates.
Love, you know the dates.
Yes, I always say Easterweekend, that way I don't mess
it up.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Easter weekend there you go, there you go.
Easter weekend Wednesday,thursday, friday, that way.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
I don't mess it up, it's the weekend.
There you go, there you go.
It's the weekend.
It's the weekend.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
It's the weekend, it's the weekend, it's the
weekend, it's the weekend, it'sthe weekend, it's the weekend.
It's the weekend, it's theweekend.
It's the weekend.
It's the weekend, it's theweekend, it's the weekend.
Issue Even if you are not yetgraduating preemptively, start
talking with people and figuringout what kinds of programs will
(50:34):
look at you, and don't go upthere and just get information
on their program.
They don't know you.
You got to get them to know you.
Right, people always who youknow.
It's like no, it's who knowsyou.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
And.
I will say, to hype it up again, march 28th through 31st, if
you think it's not that good,it's not that bad, sold out.
The booths are sold out for theresidency, for the med schools
and for the residency programs,yes.
So if you're a pre-med andyou're like I don't know if this
is worth it, again we are soldout.
(51:10):
There are programs on a waitlist.
Coming to talk to students atour conference For those in med
school thinking they want to getinto residency.
We are sold out, right?
Schools are having to coalesceinto one just to have enough
space, right, certain peoplehave a lot of space Shout out to
Northwestern.
(51:31):
You know, diamond, you know I'mgoing to have a person there,
but that is what I'm saying.
So, like Dr Renee said, if youeven think, man, I may need
someone on the inside to help myapplication across the finish
line.
This is where you meet thatperson.
You get them.
Your business card, yourLinkedIn website, get across
that finish line.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
Exactly Same thing for the pre-med students.
You know Dr Love just mentioned, you know, the pre-med
exhibitor fair is sold out,which means all of the spaces
for all the possible medicalschools that can be there.
I mean, they're all taken,taken up.
So that means that you need toget on down to new orleans and
(52:13):
figure out how you're going toget through every single one of
those schools and prepare yourspiel.
You know, talk to your mentorsbefore you go so that you know
exactly what you're going to do,exactly what you're going to
say.
Um, we're going to be out therealso, docs outside the box,
we're going to be out there also, docs Outside the Box.
We're going to be out there aswell doing a couple of episodes,
maybe some carpet interviews.
(52:35):
So if you want to chat with us,we'll be there.
But I definitely encourage allof you again, because we're so
focused on careers on thispodcast, to get out there and do
what you possibly can to moveyour career in the direction
that you want it to go.
Speaker 3 (52:53):
A little sunshine out there just a little bit, yeah,
yeah.
Get into residency, because onthe other side the doctor said a
hundred times I'm making ahundred to one that when you get
through residency, that's whenpeople start begging for you.
All right, those Ciao, ciao,let's see.
(53:16):
Actress, whatever subspeciality you want, you're
probably going to get it becausethe numbers are in your favor.
You want to do child immunology?
Go ahead.
You want to come down toNashville?
There are whole PEDSfellowships waiting for you.
Child Neurology wants you.
So just when you get to theother side, you are the
(53:37):
highlight.
So just make it through people.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
We're here to help you through that.
Yeah, that is a great thing toend on is that you are
definitely going to be wantedAin't.
No more begging.
The begging is over.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Because the odds are ever in your favor.
Speaker 3 (53:54):
Oh yeah, so get your key sweat on right now, be all
good, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Well, thank you so much, Dr Uche.
Dr Love, Dr Love, love havingyou here.
I wasn't here with you the lasttime, so this was really fun
for me.
Dr Uche, this is the first timewe're actually meeting.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
I know, like you know , talking to each other.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yes, yeah, yeah so, but I enjoyed having you both on
this was such a great topic todiscuss and especially your
expertise as an assistantprogram director.
We really, really appreciatethat and I hope people you know
take everything that we'vetalked about today and hopefully
apply it however you can toyour situation.
(54:40):
So we will see you at the SMAconference Easter weekend.
People, we're going gonna saypeace, peace.
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