August 19, 2025 • 47 mins
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Dr. Lucie Mitchell is a long time listener of Docs Outside. She joins Dr. Nii today to share her story about how a major panic attack in the last 3 months of residency training led her to pay off $70,000 of student loan debt in less than a year and turn medicine into art.
Things to expect in this episode:
- How a debt-induced panic attack and a phone call with Dr. Renée resulted in an aggressive loan repayment plan
- How Dr. Lucie turned her back pain into art for herself and others
- How she roped the dean of her medical school into babysitting her daughter
- How one of Dr. Nii's mindset episodes helped Dr. Lucie stop stalling and take action
Check out Dr. Lucie's artistry at www.phoenixnoirdesigns.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
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Forward.
Slash docs outside the box.
(01:10):
What's good everyone?
This is Dr Nii.
We have a longtime listener onthe show today.
We have Dr Lucy Mitchell.
Dr Lucy, welcome to DocsOutside the Box.
What's good?
How you doing.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Hey, thank you, very happy to be here.
I'm a longtime listener,longtime fan.
I've known your wife forever.
You were just a bald head thatI seen far away one day.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And now you just hear my voice every now and then.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yep, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, I really love connecting with longtime
listeners.
I used to listen to radio whenI was younger, particularly like
Hot 97 and so forth, so I knowpeople always say, like longtime
listener, first time caller.
So everybody, we do acceptcall-ins.
So if you guys are listening tothis show and you want to get
on, just hit us up and you canbe just like Dr Lucy and come on
(02:03):
the show.
So we have so many differentfacets of you that we are going
to explore today, more than justbeing a listener to the show,
but also, like you are takingaction, you're doing some
outside of the box things thatwe want to feature on the show.
But before we jump into that,let's take a moment.
Tell us about who you are,where you're from, tell us about
(02:24):
what your training is, whatyour specialty, and then we'll
just take it from there.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Okay, yeah, so originally I'm from Canada, you
know.
So me and my siblings and myparents are from Haiti.
So you know, we're growing upin a Haitian household.
You know straight parents, allabout education and all that
other stuff, and it's eitheryou're a doctor, lawyer,
engineer or nurse, or whatever.
And it's either you're a doctor, lawyer, engineer or nurse or
whatever Right Failure.
None of my siblings are doingthat, okay, by the way.
(02:48):
And so then my mom said, hey,we're going to move south.
So I figured, all right, we'regoing to move to Florida.
You know how Haitian folks are,so I'm thinking Florida.
So we went to Boston, I thoughtwe were visiting, but we ended
up staying for about 18 yearsyears, oh wow okay, yeah, uh-uh
nope were you in like roxbury orwhere we lived in dorchester
and mattapan dorchester?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
okay, I've heard of dorchester.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Okay, so dorchester and mattapan, and so I went to
holy cross for undergrad.
Um, I was an english major,creative minor league.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Okay, yep, pretty good, I went to lehigh so lehigh
, I know that yeah, so we usedto race you guys all the time,
so we be calling basketball, butanyway, so, okay, okay, yeah,
basketball team is pretty good.
I can't front basketball team.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, so we used to race you guys all the time, so
we'd be calling basketball, butanyway, so Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Okay, yeah, basketball team is pretty good.
I can't front.
Basketball team is pretty good.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
And so you know, after I finished Holy Cross I
went to Atlanta and then went tograd school.
And so you know, grad school,you know, got a master's in
biomedical sciences and thentook a year and a half and I a
year and a half and I wasteaching anatomy and physiology,
histoneuroanatomy, all thatcool stuff, and then went to med
school to decomm.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Now, when you were teaching, were you in Atlanta
also.
Where were you?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yes, I was teaching in Atlanta.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
All right, some of the colleges there, okay.
So you did that for how long?
So I did that for about a yearand a half straight and then
when I went to med school, youknow how you get like maybe like
two summers off between firstand second year, and so during
those times I was teaching theanatomy bootcamp at those
colleges and also at the medicalschool.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Oh, wow, so you're busy, so let's take a step back
real quick.
So from the time you graduatedfrom Holy Cross to going to DCOM
and I forget which DCOM iswhich school- the Busk College
of Osteopathic Medicine inTennessee.
In Tennessee.
So by the time you, the time inbetween graduating from college
to going to medical school, howmany years?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So college I graduated in 2007 and I started
med school in 2011.
And so between that there was agrad school.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Okay, so realistically about three and a
half years, four years, fouryears.
And in between that that's whenyou got your master's, that's
when you were teaching.
Then you went to medical schoolokay.
And then in between yoursummers of medical school, you
were making some extra cash byusing your skills as an anatomy
specialist.
So you were teaching anatomy atyour school as well as at the
other schools that you were atalso.
Yeah, okay.
(05:04):
And then, third year, it's timeto make a decision, right?
You got to make a decision asto what specialty you want to go
into, and you decided to gointo PMNR.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
So that's physical medicine and rehabilitation,
that's not how I heard.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I heard it was plenty money and rehab and relaxation.
That's what I heard.
Why are you changing thedefinition?
What's this?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I mean, you know I'm chilling, all right.
So you go into PMNR.
We got a bunch of med studentswho listen, you know, as far as
(05:44):
Guillain-Barre, to anything fromlet's see, any of those
neuromuscular disorders that youhear as a child, that you only
see in books, and strokes, braininjuries, spinal cord injuries,
trauma, yep, lots of trauma,lots of orthopedic trauma
vehicle trauma.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I think, like 80% of our patients, end up in your
hands in a physical medicine orrehab doctor's hands?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Oh, probably, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
When you want to accept them.
Excuse me, let me just clarifythat Y'all don't want to accept
nobody.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
No, they're criteria and sometimes y'all just want to
hand us to anybody.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
When y'all want to get paid.
Anyway, move on.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
We have to get, we gotta make some money.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So everybody listen.
So the majority of my patientsthat I take care of like going
home immediately after theirtrauma or even at the hospital
is really not an option.
So usually the options for themare going to a skilled nursing
facility, so like a nursing homeor going home, which can be
really difficult if they have,like, orthopedic injuries or
they have a brain injury or ifthey they have a spinal cord
injury or you know.
(06:45):
Let's say, I operate on themand I have to remove organs.
Like that takes time to recover.
So the other option is for themto go to something called
inpatient rehab and that's whereDr Lucy is taking care of
patients who are acutely injured.
They're recovering.
They're no longer like acutelyinjured, but they're recovering
and they need someone like herto help them get to the next
(07:06):
process, which is hopefullygetting home.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So yeah, and the thing about that is a lot of
like people, especially y'all,y'all surgeons, y'all don't know
the difference between acuteand patient rehab, nursing home,
skilled nursing facilities,long-term care, because all
those are all different things.
So a nursing home is not askilled nursing facility,
because a lot of people will getthose two confused Come and
educate us.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
please Tell us the difference right now.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That's why there's a lot of miscommunication there.
So a skilled nursing facilityis where somebody is, you know,
not at the point where they cantolerate the acute inpatient
rehab, but also not at the pointwhere they're going to require,
like you know, 24 seven ongoingcare like in a nursing home.
So a skilled facility is likethe in-between, and then your
(07:49):
insurance usually approves thatfor about a 20 day stay, versus
acute inpatient rehab is anaverage of 10 to 14 days and
again it could be less, it couldbe more depends on how you
progress while you're there.
And so those are the options.
Nursing home is more like of a,you know, between a long-term
place where somebody will say,hey, I can't take care of my
(08:10):
mother anymore, Maybe she can goto a nursing home and she can
stay there for X amount of time,but it's a lot longer than 20
days like a skilled nursingfacility.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Okay, and usually the big difference between a
skilled nursing facility andinpatient rehab for those who
are listening, the bigdifference is is how much rehab
can that person do right, Like,how many hours can that person
do Correct?
How many can they tolerateRight?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
A lot of times, even for acute and patient rehab it's
about three hours a day totolerate.
But somebody who needs askilled nursing may not be able
to tolerate that intense rehab,and so they can only do an hour,
one hour and a half a day, andso that's when a skilled nursing
becomes more appropriate day,and so that's when a skilled
nursing becomes more appropriate.
But they're there longerbecause they can actually, you
know, do better in that periodof time versus a three hour that
(08:48):
they're shorter because theyget more therapy in between
those times.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Okay, All right, cool .
So how long was your residency?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
So total is four years.
So your first year is yourintern year, which is, you know,
it could be a combination ofeither general surgery or
internal medicine, ortransitional, transitional year,
which is a combination of thetwo.
So that's what I did, um, andthen three years of rehab and
after that I went into afellowship.
So I did my fellowship ininterventional spine and pain.
(09:15):
So I do a lot of minimallyinvasive spine procedures.
You know your bread and butterlike epidurals and stuff, do all
those too.
But of course your spinal cordstimulators, your VertiFlex,
which is, you know, implanting adevice between the spinal
processes on the back to, youknow, help with somebody with
spinal stenosis, for example.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So oftentimes you're in the operating room you're
wearing scrubs you have likelead on because you're using a
lot of fluoroscopy and so forth.
So wow, so that's prettyimpressive.
Here's a tip when looking foryour next job, understand your
strengths and weaknesses.
For example, if you've beenpracticing for a while and you
(09:53):
know you have a problem withclosing charts, then it's
important that you find a placethat's going to help you have
administrative help right.
So there are plenty of optionswhen it comes to your career in
medicine.
But just like every patient isdifferent, every physician has
their own personal definition ofsuccess, and that's where our
sponsor steps in ProviderSolutions and Development
(10:15):
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Forward slash docs outside thebox, all right.
So you?
So that's a total of four yearsof training.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Okay, four years of training and now.
Where are you located now?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
So right now I'm in private practice.
I'm in Rome, georgia, okay, andso that's where.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I am Okay, all right, and you've been listening to
Docs Outside the Box for howlong?
Now, sis, how long?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Man since forever, because you started back what
three years ago almost.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
No, I started 2016.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
So I started listening in 2017.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
2017.
Okay, so yeah, you definitelybeen there for a long time,
because 2016,.
That was the time when I onlyput out for the entire year.
I put out like 16 episodesbecause I just wasn't sure
exactly what I was doing, howconsistent I wanted to be.
And then, around late 2016, andas we start getting into 2017,
(11:41):
that's when more and more peoplemore physicians, more med
students, more people inhealthcare in general are
jumping onto the podcast waveand that's when I was like, oh
man, like I need to get moreconsistent with this, and that's
when I think we started to geta lot more listeners because we
were just putting out episodesevery week.
So I cringe listening to thoseepisodes, but I appreciate
(12:04):
people like you for stickingwith us, so I really appreciate
that.
Now, as everybody who's listenedto the show knows, we feature
docs who do things outside ofmedicine.
So I wanted to highlight whatyou do in the hospital, and
that's really great, but let'sjump into what you do outside of
medicine.
You have a design studio, youhave a company, a business
(12:28):
called Phoenix Noir Designs andPhotography.
Tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, and so what it is is because I specialize or
sub-specialize in spine and pain, and so what I ended up doing
is getting images of my ownspine, not just for fun, but
because you know they wereneeded at the time, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I was about to say I was like, wait, you just going
in there just doing floor onyour back, how you do that.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
No, it was actually needed for specific reasons.
And so, um, what I ended updoing is saying, wow, because my
L5 S1, you know, the disc isalmost gone and I'm young.
So people are like, you know,wow, that's crazy.
But also I have a you knowlistesis, so that's like a
slippage of one vertebrae overthe other, right at that same
level.
And so I was like, wow, myspine looks, you know, jacked up
(13:18):
, you know.
And so I started just kind ofplaying around with it in some
of my programs and and I'm doingsome abstract, turning my spine
into some abstract art andpeople were like, wow, that's
pretty cool.
You know, what is that?
What'd you get it from?
And I'm like what?
No, that's my spine, like whatyou mean.
And so I started doing more ofit and people started like what
(13:39):
are you doing Like?
I have Element, I have ToolWiz,I have all these different, you
know, like programs that I useBecause I used to.
I was doing art since I was inmiddle school.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
But when you started, you were just like.
You did this on purpose atfirst, or were you trying to
like look at your spine better?
It was on purpose?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
No, it was on purpose .
I was kind of messing aroundwith it.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Okay, I was in lectures.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
I was like, okay, well, that's pretty cool, people
are starting asking more aboutit.
And then one time a nurse said,hey, you know what you get that
, how much is it?
I'm like, well, what?
And I just gave a random priceand she was like, all right,
cool, sold.
I was like, oh, okay, yeah, wow, wow.
So people will pay for yourartwork, okay yeah, and so then
I started doing more of it, moreof it, and people would say,
hey, you, I have like a needthat has been jacked up.
You know, here's my MRI, youknow how much you charge.
And so then that's when Istarted saying, hey, you know
(14:30):
what this can be, my little youknow thing.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
So this is now like 2018, 2018.
Okay, yeah 2018.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So it wasn't, you know, nothing serious.
You know I was kind of saying,okay, here and there, kind of
doing stuff, but then I reallytook it seriously, you know,
after this whole panic attackthat I had, you know, in 2019.
And that's when I started, youknow, jumping on that even more
seriously and, you know, startedgetting the website out.
I think I got the website outlast year and then now it's, you
know, full-blown running and Ido a lot more than just spines.
(15:03):
I do different body parts.
You know I've done like aninitial emblation for like an
OBGYN.
You know I also do a lot ofabstract acrylic paintings, and
so a lot of folks want theoriginal paintings, and so I've
been doing that as well too.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So do you got to get permission for.
So who like you're getting thisis like patients that you're
taking some of the photos, theimages of and no, they were my.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
They were originally all mine.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, so they were all my spine images, so I didn't
have any patient images.
They were all mine that I wasusing to create the different
designs.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But the current art that you're using right now.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
So my our current art is all mine still.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Gotcha.
So there's so many differentways to use.
You know your spine images andso, but they're all mine.
The one that I sell and put out, they're all mine.
If somebody were to ask me todo theirs, you know I do theirs,
you know to pay for it, I getthem theirs, but I don't resell
like their spines.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
How long does it take to do a piece of art?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
It depends.
Sometimes it could take me, youknow I'll go all day Saturday
and just be in my zone and justyou know focus on that.
At times it could take anywherefor like several days to a few
weeks, and that's for like spinestuff.
If I'm doing acrylic paintings,you know it'll take me about,
you know, several days to do thepainting, but then the painting
(16:17):
itself needs to cure or dry forat least like three to four
weeks, cause there's a lot oflayers on it.
And then, once it's dried, thenI have to like do a varnish or
add resin, which is the top coatlayer, and all those take time
as well too.
So before we hopped on thisshow, I was actually doing some
layers to some paintings okay,so for those who are listening
(16:37):
to the show.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
on just a podcast you can't see, but if you're
watching on YouTube, you can seea piece of artwork that Dr Lucy
has sent to us.
Let me see if I can get thiscentered better.
Like this is some beautifulartwork, so is this you.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
This is me.
This was at the very beginningof the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
So this is you.
It looks like you have a maskon and your hair is over one eye
.
You look like Aaliyah.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
All right, I was actually crying, I was just
upset, I was mad, I was pissedoff, I was angry because, you
know, I was seeing a lot ofpeople my age, you know dying
and in a matter of days, and itwas just exhausting.
I couldn't go home to my kidsyou know my husband, so it was a
lot going on at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Now, dr Lucy, you are PM&R, so like tell us about
like what happened in thatsituation.
Did they, did you get likedeputized and you had to do like
different types of?
Did you have to do thingsoutside of your scope during the
like the height of the pandemic?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
So during that time I was actually in fellowship
during the pandemic, and so, asa fellow, even though we were
doing all the individual spineand pain stuff, we still had to,
you know, do our duties at thehospital as well too.
And part of the rehab unit wasconverted into, you know, a
COVID ward basically, and soeven though they were on, you
know, covid patients, they wouldstill have your responsibility
(17:57):
because they were technically onyour unit at the end of the day
, and so there was a lot of thatgoing on, and I actually had
the first COVID patient in thehospital at the time when I was
doing my fellowship.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Where did you do your fellowship?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
at.
I did it at Alamo OrthoSportsand Spine in Birmingham.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
All right, and so we did the PM&R part at Grandview
and St Vincent's East.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Got you, got you Okay .
So that I mean that had to be alittle crazy, though right.
Like I mean, this is not thetypical type of patient that
you're doing most of yourtraining on.
You know, I'm sure you have toisolate for C, diff and all
these, but that's a different.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
That was a different beast, yeah, and so because
there weren't any protocols, andso myself and my co-fellows, we
ended up writing a protocol forCOVID, for the rehab unit,
which ended up being theprotocol for the hospital at the
same time, also during our time.
Yeah, we try.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Okay, okay.
Well, that piece of art thatyou guys just saw, that is dope,
that's going into the studio.
You can find more about herpaintings, her design, at
Phoenix Noir.
Let me see Where's the website.
I thought I have that I'm goingto put in the show notes.
If I don't have it up here, Ishould have it here, but-.
Speake (19:05):
SOSPhoenixNoirDesignscom .
Speaker 1 (19:07):
There you go, so I'm going to put in the show notes
so people can support that.
So you say it takes anywherebetween, like what, 24 hours to
maybe several weeks, dependingon if it's an acrylic painting
for you to get something outlike that.
And then you said that you werepainting when you were in
middle school.
So from the time when you werein middle school to when you
became a physician, or even tothe point where you started
(19:30):
making this a business, were youstill dabbling and working in
paint, or did you have to laythat down so that you can really
focus on medicine?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
So I was still dabbling here and there, but I
did lay it down during residency, like the first couple years of
residency.
It kind of laid down just alittle bit, but then I started
picking it up just here andthere, once in a blue moon, like
for the photography portionportion.
You know, when you're aresident you get like those
pictures of you on a website sothey can see who the residency
class is.
Well, so far, the class beforemine and all the ones way before
(19:58):
that, they all looked like dulland it was a cloudy day and it
looked it just looked a hot mess.
And so I asked my programdirector.
I said, hey, can I take overand do like the pictures for our
class and the class that comesafter us, because these pictures
don't look right.
And she was like yeah, yeah,sure, whatever, go at it.
So I did that and everybodywould from different programs
would say, hey, what y'all gotpictures done, where y'all go,
(20:19):
is it the'm like?
No, this is outside thebuilding, we just made it look
nice you know, and so that kindof started yeah, and so that
started, you know, gettingbusiness in that direction.
As far as other programs wantedme to, you know, do some of
their photos for their residentsand things of that sort too, so
I enjoyed doing that duringresidency.
So that's where I started kindof slowly picking that back up
(20:40):
even more and more during thattime.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So, when you're working or not working, when you
are creating, where's your mindat?
Like how you know cause it's?
I can imagine, like you, it'srelated to anatomy, it's related
to what you do, it's your, youknow, it's your body that you're
basically manipulating andcreating into art.
But I just am interested wheredoes your mind go when you're
doing this, this, like thedoctor mind that's creating, or
(21:03):
is this the other side of yourbrain?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
yeah, it is definitely not the doctor mind,
because at that point I try toshut down you know, the outside
from like work and everything.
If I had a bad day at work, yousee it in my art because like
dark colors and it's like whatthe hell is this?
You know, it's just very dark.
Sometimes if I'm having a greatday, it's going to be these
bright colors.
You know it's colorful.
And sometimes if I'm justhaving a just a regular, like
you know, just go around day,then it can be a mixture of
(21:29):
things.
But my mind is usually not onwork, or how do I make this look
like more like a spine, or howdo I do this?
Definitely not in my mind.
At that point I'm usually have,like you know, some ratchet
music in my ear, you know,whatever just going why you got
to be ratchet Dr going why yougot to be ratchet.
Dr Lucy, why you got to beratchet.
Sometimes I be ratchet, but forreal, and a lot of times you
(21:49):
know I'm playing my TI in my earand I'm on go.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Okay, all right, all right.
Well, look like, I think, fromthe outside looking in, someone
who's listening to this show,you know you can hear little
things that you're saying hereand there.
That's piecemealing what'sgoing on behind the scenes.
But let's go get under thesurface right, because I think
surface level is like oh okay,pm&r, you're fellowship trained,
you're doing your thing, you'reworking on design.
(22:13):
On the side, you know peopleare buying your artwork.
I have a piece of your artworkthat's great.
So let's go deeper, because,from the way how I understand
things, it seems like you havethings together now.
But the way how I understandthis, all of this started with a
panic attack in residency.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, it sure did.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Let's get into that.
Take us to residency.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So it was.
I was on EMGs that rotation,right and I was done for the
morning.
You know we still have someafternoon patients, but I was
just starting, you know I wasdone for the morning.
You know we still have someafternoon patients, but I was
just starting, you know I wasdone.
Then you know it's time for meto pay my monthly student loan
payment, because I didn't haveit on auto draft at the time,
right?
And so I see that figureliterally every single month by
(22:54):
clockwork.
But that day I don't know whathappened.
But when I opened it up to makethat payment and I legit just
screamed, I was pissed, Iscreamed.
I was like you know, thecomputers that belong like even
like little boost and stuff inyour program.
I was shaking my computer.
My tenant came running down thehall so I'm like what's wrong?
(23:15):
Are you okay?
I'm like look at that shit.
He was like what?
I'm like, look at this shit.
And he just looked.
He's like whoa, what is that?
I'm like that's how much moneyI gotta fucking pay.
And he was like, just, you know,calm down.
I'm like, no, I'm not gonnacalm down.
I'm like this is fucking.
I mean, I'm going off.
You know, just like he's calm,he's cool.
(23:36):
You know he's like yo.
He's like do you need a moment?
I don't want a fucking moment.
I need to get out of here.
I can't stand this place.
I love my program I really dobut that day it went from A to Z
100, whatever.
I was not having it.
I was legit panicking, like myheart rate was up, my blood
pressure was through the roofand I was like you know what?
I got to go.
(23:56):
I got to go and I walked out.
You know and luckily you knowhe's still a very understanding
you know he texted me, said hey,just take the rest of your day
off, I'll finish up thisafternoon.
But just be all right.
So you know I was going to gohome.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Have you ever had a panic attack before this?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Nope, not at all.
So I was going to go home, butI couldn't even drive home.
Like literally, I got in my car, I drove one block and pulled
into the CVS parking lot and Iwas literally, you know, hitting
my steering wheel.
I was going, I got out, hit mycar a few times, that shit hurt
(24:43):
and it came back inside and Iwas like you know what I got to
call somebody.
And at first I called my husband, you know, and I'm just like
yelling at him and he don't knowwhat's going on.
And he was like, well, are youin any danger?
I was like no, but you're aboutto be, you know, just going off
.
And he was like, well, takeyour time.
Just, you know, chill out,relax.
You don't do what you got to do.
And then you know when you'reokay, you know, just come home.
Thoughts as far as, like youknow how, you know FedLoan, suck
and all the other stuff,whatever.
(25:04):
So I'm like you know what,who's going to get this?
I'm like you know what I'mgoing to call Renee.
So I called your wife.
Luckily she picked up the phoneand we had a long conversation,
you know, in the sense ofstudent loans and debt and you
know how.
You know it's not just me goingthrough all this stuff.
A lot of people are goingthrough this.
(25:24):
But having their head in thesand and literally that was my
head popping up, I think thatmoment was for me.
It was like I literally openedmy eyes and popped up out of the
sand and was like what the fuck?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, that's the best way to describe it.
Yeah, everything just seemslike numbers in the cloud, or
it's just these letters that youget, emails, and you're like
that's not that big of a dealuntil you, until you get your
head out of sand and you realizethe implications and you're
like oh yeah, and for me thatmoment, yeah, it was it.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Whatever happened that day.
I mean, the light bulb came onand I was like, oh shit, you
like I have to pay this shitback.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
So how did you calm down?
What calmed you down I'veobviously talking to Renee
calmed you down.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, a whole lot.
But then, you know, while I wasin the car, you know, I took
out a piece of paper and a penand just started writing things
down as far as, like, I wentthrough all the debts that I had
, from my credit card debt to-.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
In the car you were writing this down.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
In the car?
Yeah, because I was parked.
I was a CVS parking lot parked,okay, you know.
And so I'm looking at, like, mystudent loans.
I wrote all those things down.
I looked at my loans from gradschool because I didn't have any
undergrad loans.
So I'm looking at grad school,writing all this stuff down
Credit cards, car.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I mean the whole nine .
So I have like a list and Istill have that list to this day
.
Actually, can I ask how muchyou totaled it all up to be in
terms of debt?
Let's go, let's go, let's go,come on, come on.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Dr Lucy tell us oh yeah, it was over 630K, Damn.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Like of your debt.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Of mine.
That's not including myhusband's anything.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
That was me, so for so medical school was obviously
the majority of that.
And then you had undergrad debtand then, no, I didn't have any
undergrad debt.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Undergrad was 100 paid for okay, so I had a full
ride for that.
I was I'm in boston at the timewhen if you were valedictorian
then you got to go to whateverschool you were accepted to free
of charge.
So who was it?
Thomas marina was the mayor andthat was like one of his little
things that he had going on atthe time.
Um, and so undergrad full ride,grad school not so much, and so
that's you know, had to pay forthat.
(27:29):
And then med school was the big, you know, yeah, and so then I
was like you know what?
All right, here's my debt,here's all this stuff.
I had the interest rates, youknow, I had the whole nine.
All this is all in the car, allin the car, all in the car.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Oh, wow, so you yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Until I had it all mapped out and had a plan,
because I had to go.
When I went home, I wanted tobe calm, I want to be cool.
You know I have kids.
You know I didn't want to gofor them, which I do sometimes.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
But that's another story.
$600,000 in student loan debtand you had a plan before you
came home, or you just hadeverything written out by the
time you got home.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
No, no, no, I had a plan.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Oh, I was in the car for hours.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
How come Dr Renee didn't tell me about this?
Call yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I was in the car for literally hours.
I'd run inside a CVS for snacks, drinks, go back in my car and
just hash it out in my car.
So by the time I got home I litout, you know.
I said, hey, this is my plan,here's what I'm going to do.
You know, it was ABC XYZ kindof situation, and so the first
thing I wanted to tackle was mywhat I had left for grad school,
(28:39):
which is about 70K for gradschool.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Okay, and what point of your residency is this now?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
This is my last year of residency.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Your last year of residency.
So you decided that you want totake out your grad school loans
while in residency.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yep While making a resident salary.
Yes, here's the kicker.
And so this was the spring of2019.
So that means that I'm going tograduate in a few months from
residency.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Right, right when most people should be stacking
cash.
You trying to pay off Right, Igot you.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
And also starting my fellowship.
My fellowship didn't startuntil later on that year, and so
my goal was to in 2019, thisshit got to go like that.
At least the grad school stuffneeded to get out of there, and
so I started moonlighting likecrazy.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
What specialty were you moonlighting in?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I did urgent care.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Urgent care Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
So I started and the thing is that, you know, I
didn't know anybody in theurgent care industry.
I just started, like you know,asking people around because
none of my residents, of course,moonlight.
And so I started asking around,you know, other residents and
things of that sort, and thenone of the urology residents hit
me up and said hey, you knowshe's moonlighting here, but
she's about to start herfellowship in Atlanta, so you
know she'll put in a good workfor me, which she did.
(29:49):
And I started, you know, maybeabout a month later.
After all the credentialingstuff started a month later and
moonlighted any time I had.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
I mean just so you decided that the first thing was
to get all of your debt in oneplace, figure out on a piece of
paper or whatever it is, findout what debt you have, all the
interest rate where all yourdebts are belonging like, who
owns them, and so forth.
And I guess this next step wasyou just realized that you had
an income issue, so that's whyyou decided to do urgent care.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah, because the thing is that you know, when
you're a residency, you don'tget that much money.
First of all, right, and youknow there's two kids.
Right, and you got to eat, yougot to stay, whatever.
And so what I'm doing wassaying the credit card debt got
to go and the grad school debtgot to go.
All that just needed to be justout of sight, because I wanted
(30:42):
to, by the end of the day, justhave, you know, the car and my
student loans.
And at the time, you know, youknow it was just like an
apartment kind of thing, right,well, it was a house that we
were just renting, and so Iworked my ass off, like even a
fellowship.
You know, now that I'm done, Ican say whatever I want to say.
So you know, we're supposed tomoonlight during fellowship, but
I, I did All right, because Ihave things to pay off, you know
(31:04):
, because you're not going toget paid a lot when you're a
fellow either.
So I ended up in 2019 payingoff about 70K worth of debt, and
so that knocked out all creditcard debt and grad school.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
So 70K in residency.
So, and you said you by thetime this occurred, when you had
your panic attack and you madethe plan, this is towards the
end of your residency.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yep.
Wow, I was a couple months shyfrom graduation, from residency.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
So this was all done right before you finished
residency.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So the plan was.
But then so 2019, that wholeyear.
So finished residency andstarted fellowship, and so then
during that entire time that'swhen that was paid off.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Wow, man, that's props to you.
So what was that feeling likewhen you finished that set of
debt?
What did you think in your mindwhen that was done?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I was like, oh, you know, I could keep going.
So what ended up happening wasthat the credit card was paid
off first, and so that was cool.
And then for the grad school,there were two separate loans
for grad school, and so Iremember making a big chunk
payment to pay one of those off,and that feeling I mean just to
press send, you know, causethat's a lot of money going out
(32:13):
with that kind of money.
And so it was some hesitation tosend you know.
But once I did and then after awhile you see it all cleared
off and you see it on yourcredit report cleared off, it
was the best feeling in theworld.
I was like you know what, let'stackle this next one, and then
you know this next one.
And so we kind of became thatroller coaster.
But even though I was able toaccomplish you know all that, I
felt good about it.
(32:34):
That still doesn't take care ofthe rest of the $532K left for
med school, because my medschool was not a state school,
it was a private school.
So they're super expensive,super expensive.
And then I was taking out themax because when I started med
school my daughter was two.
She's 13 now.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, let's talk about that, because I did an
episode about that, how I didthe same thing.
I maxed my loans out, for themain reason is I just didn't
want to have to ask my parentsfor any money.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
They have any money.
My parents you know Jack, youknow they.
They, you know they'reimmigrants from Haiti.
You know when they came to this, you know Canada and the States
my, my dad worked, but then Iremember seeing his paycheck
when it was on a table, cause hewould come home when he gets
paid and gave my mom thepaycheck, and I remember seeing
how much he made my dad wasmaking.
You know, less than $9 an hour,less than $9 an hour in Boston,
(33:26):
y'all, and so we didn't haveany money like at all.
And so when it came to medschool, whatever like, my
parents couldn't help foranything, period.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Did you see that?
There was a report that cameout several years ago, maybe
like two or three years ago,where it said like the average
black family in Boston, liketheir net worth is like $8.
Did you see that?
Did you hear that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
But I don't, I mean, I believe it.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, because it's crazy, yeah, you know, because
if you're not owning, if youdon't- own a home if you're
renting right if you don't haveanything saved up for retirement
.
I definitely believe it.
It sounds shocking until youactually start to put things
together and you're like, ohyeah, that's believable, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yep, it sure is.
And you know, being up therefor about 18 years, yeah,
definitely, most definitely.
And so med school my parentscouldn't pay for or help pay for
anything.
So you know you gotta be outthere to live, right.
So I had an apartment and stuff.
You know, gotta raise the kidsand all that good stuff.
My husband's law enforcement,you know at the time as well too
(34:26):
, still is, but you know it'svery beginning stages of stuff,
right, and so you pretty muchdon't have anything, and so my
account was always, you know,red, because they was looking at
and that's how the credit cardstuff, you know, kind of started
back up again, right.
You, you know well, started inmed school because you know what
else are you going to push thephone, but then when you're
applying for residency, you'retraveling, you're interviewing.
(34:47):
All that adds up at the end ofthe day, you know.
And my daughter was two yearsold again when I started.
Now she's 13,.
But you know, and in betweenthat you know, we had a.
I have a son too now, so he'sfour, and you know my daughter
grew up in that time as far asseeing the whole cycle in the
sense of when I started medschool she was two.
So when I was studying foranatomy or whatever, I would
(35:18):
literally sneak her into the labbefore hours, you know, and her
and a couple of my greatfriends to this day.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
You know we'd go in there and then we'd study.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
You know, I had to put her in a trash bag so that
way I could keep her clean.
Talking about my daughterGotcha, I had to put her in a
trash bag so that way I couldkeep her clean.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Talking about my daughter Gotcha Gotcha, and if
so I could sit her on a cadaver.
So while we're dissecting andstudying, she's right there so I
could keep my eye on her youknow, wow, wow Say that again
you had to do what, like youweren't playing Like.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
This is dedication.
I want to hear this again.
Yeah, inside, pick her up, sither on a cadaver, put a scrub
top on her, give her some glovesyou know so that way and put
scrunchie around because she'slittle.
So push, crunch she around herlittle arms with the gloves,
that way, you know, she couldkeep clean while we're studying
on a cadaver and keep an eye onher.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Wow, and she wasn't freaked out or anything by the,
by the dead bodies, I mean shewas too well, she, she don't
know that for real right, youknow right.
Does she talk about it to thisday like, does she?
Does she still remember that?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
well, she remembers part of it because she remembers
sometimes being in a study roomand me setting up a little tent
for her.
She thought she was goingcamping but we'd be studying
overnight, you know, in thestudy halls or whatever.
So she remembers some of that.
She remembers some stuff in thecadaver lab, but not much, you
know at the time and so, butthat's how we know we had to get
it done.
So, you know, I had a village,you know, in med school, and
that village is still my villageto this day.
(36:23):
But I would not have been ableto get through without my
homegirls, you know, because youknow I have to study just as
much as everybody else.
And so, yes, I had a daughter.
But, hey, I had to make ithappen.
There were times when I take herto daycare, daycare be closed
for no reason.
I take her to daycare Daycarebe closed for no reason.
It's not a holiday, it'snothing, and I have a major test
(36:47):
that morning in like minutes.
So I remember one time Iliterally just say you know what
, fuck it Ran to school, ran tothe Dean's office it was Dean
Stowers I ran upstairs to Dean'soffice with my daughter, got
back on hand, I was like, hey,here you go, dr Stowers, I'll be
right back.
And he's like what?
I'm like, look, I got a test totake.
(37:08):
But you got this right, you gotkids, you got this.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
And I would bust out the door, leave my daughter with
D Stowers and take my test andI would come back upstairs and
they would have the whole suiteturn into like a little play
thing for her no-transcript thatmaybe be able to be a little
(37:46):
bit of a side hustle, like aviable side hustle, where that
could help you pay off yourloans or even just provide just
a certain level of lifestyle foryou.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, it's definitely getting there for sure, because
I've been getting a lot ofrequests for commission pieces,
for paintings, even thehospitals, and so right now if
you go to some hospitals you'llsee my paintings up there,
originals and also prints thatthey have, and so I've been
getting a lot of traffic and soa lot of requests and so I think
(38:16):
last week, I think I shippedoff six paintings last week and
they went to different places inthe US and even to Canada.
So I'm trying.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Good, good, no, you're doing, you're doing,
which, actually, what you justsaid leads me to my next point.
Like you know, one of the lastthings that when I talk with my
guests or when I have them fillout forms for them to come on
the show, is, like, what are theaction steps that you want the
audience, the listeners, to walkaway from?
Right, and I make them listthree steps, and you've listed
(38:49):
three steps.
But number two is the one that,for me, I think is going to
resonate with a lot more people,which is stop waiting and stop
being scared, just get out thereand get started now, which
definitely is like, apropos,considering what you're doing
right now.
Right, it's not even I'm trying, it's I'm doing.
Right, like, you are doing it,you're starting it.
(39:10):
So let's, let's talk a littlebit about that.
Like, how important is it tolike really stop like the whole,
like conceptualizing and, youknow, describing things and
planning things out and justdoing.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Talk to us about that things and planning things out
and just doing Talk to us aboutthat, yeah.
And so even for Phoenix store.
I remember when I spoke toRenee one time and I said, hey,
you know, I'm thinking aboutgetting a website up and started
getting myself out there.
But then I spent so much timeon the planning and thinking and
said, well, maybe it won't begood enough or I don't think
we're really going to dig it forreal, and so I took literally
(39:42):
about eight months in that space.
And then there was an episodethat you had about mindset you
know as far as all, aboutchanging your mindset.
And instead of you know saying,well, maybe, maybe this just
okay, you know what this is,what it's going to be and after
that episode I was like, youknow what, you know, he's right,
you know what?
Just screw it.
I've been thinking about thisforever.
(40:03):
I've been planning, criticalplanning forever.
I'm just going to do it andjust, you know, go live with my
website, go live with everything.
You know I joined some otherlike art groups on Facebook.
Before this, all my groups onFacebook were all medical
related, right, and so now Ijoined some art communities on
Facebook and Instagram and sojust put myself out there and
the response has beenoverwhelmingly great, you know.
(40:27):
And all because of a mindsetshift, because a lot of times,
you know, if we're in a space ofokay, well, I'm planning this
and I'm planning that, butthere's no action being taken
except for just planning, thenyou're not really going anywhere
.
You're spending too much timeplanning when you could have
been doing something and been somuch further along than before.
So if I started this, you know,when I started planning I said,
(40:50):
okay, I'm planning this, butthen you know, let me just start
putting things out there Iwould have been a lot further
along than I am now.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah, and you know.
So here's what I always tellpeople, so what I always tell
people.
So I started Docs Outside theBox in 2016.
I've actually beenconceptualizing it since 2014.
I didn't take action andactually start putting out
episodes since then.
And if you went to, if youlooked on my Google Docs that's
where I keep all of my notesthere's notes that go far back
as 2014, talking about how tostart a podcast, which way,
(41:18):
which microphone am I going toget, and so forth.
So for me, in my mind, prior tothat, the work was being done,
you know, prior to 2016.
But whenever I tell people whenI started the podcast, when I'm
, how long have I been doingthis, I say 2016, because when
you really look at it, like thework is when you actually start
doing things right.
So when people say, well, howlong you've been paying off debt
(41:38):
, it's not like how long you'vebeen conceptualizing, it's like
when did you start putting inthat work?
Same thing with students whoare in professional school.
Like you know that wholeconcept of well, I won't start
practicing for a test until Istart studying the entire book
for the test, when it reallyshould be.
You need to start doingquestions first, so that you
know exactly what the so youknow exactly where you stand.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
first, so that you know exactly where you stand.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Where you stand or even what the test takers want.
Right, that's the mostimportant thing.
What do the test takers want?
And the only way you canunderstand that, to pass this
test, is by taking tests,reading the book and reading the
chapters.
How do you know what's the mostimportant concept to take from
there?
So, the same thing with thispodcast, the same thing with
Phoenix Noir it's all aboutliterally taking action, and I
think that's the thing that Iwant the listeners to take away
(42:24):
from is like the work is not inconceptualizing.
The work is in actually doingsomething, taking a choice and
then dealing with theconsequences afterwards.
That's where the work comes in.
Well, I took, you know I took.
There was a fork in the road, Iwent left and because of that,
x, y and Z happened, and this iswhat I did to mitigate it.
That's where the work is atNodding, drawing all of these
(42:46):
different diagrams on your walland on your vision board and
saying that's not where all thework is done.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, because I see it as far as if you're going to
a code, you're not saying, allright, let me get my ACLS book
out, let me see plan Oh're inB-Tech, what do we do for B-Tech
?
You're not doing that, andthat's what we spend so much
time doing in real life, versusjust saying, hey, you know all
right around an epi or whatever,whatever you know, just going
into taking charge.
And so the same thing as far asif you have a plan or an idea,
(43:14):
just take charge and just go forit.
Otherwise you're going to behitting yourself on the head
years down the line saying, well, I could have been so much
further, I should have done this, I should have done that, I
should have, could have, wouldhave whatever you know, just do
it.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Or you're going to be pissed.
Someone took your idea.
There's always room there'salways room for multiple people
to come into a space and youcould always do things your way,
but when you are the firstperson in there, that founder's
effect there's nothing.
There's nothing like that.
But this was super dope.
Dr Lucy, Thank you so much forsharing your story.
(43:46):
Thank you so much for sharingthis piece of artwork.
Let me show it again For allthe people who are on the
podcast.
This is what y'all get.
You should be listening orwatching on YouTube anyway, but
this is some of the dope artworkthat Dr Lucy is creating.
You can check it out on herwebsite.
We're going to have the linksto her website and the show
notes, but once again, this isDr Lucy, longtime listener,
(44:08):
artist, PM&R, mom, wife payingoff her debt, and she's going
through the process.
Right now.
You still got $500,000, alittle bit plus and more to get
towards it and you will getthrough it, absolutely For sure
Because nobody else is going topay it off, hey listen.
When you finish paying off yourdebt, you come back on the show.
We'll have you do a debt-freescream Forget Dave.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Ramsey, oh sure.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
You do a Docs, outside the Box, debt-free,
scream up on this.
All right.
So listen, dr Lucy, tell peoplewhere they can once again, tell
people where they can onceagain tell us about the website
where they can find your artworkand maybe even purchase them.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, so the website is wwwphoenixnoirdesignscom.
You can find me on Facebook andInstagram under Phoenix Noir
Designs.
I answer all your questions.
As far as your DMs andeverything else, I'm always in
there.
I was not as active on socialmedia until I started putting
myself out there and I haveloved the response ever since
(45:07):
then, and so I'm very active onmy social media feeds and stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
So there it is, guys.
So listen, go and check theshow notes.
You will find links for DrLucy's artwork Phoenix Noir
Designs and Photography, whereshe transforms images of human
spines into beautiful abstractartwork.
Dr Lucy artwork Phoenix NoirDesigns and Photography, where
she transforms images of humanspines into beautiful abstract
artwork.
Dr Lucy, thanks again forcoming on.
Docs, outside the Box, makesure you come back when you pay
off all your debt.
All right.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Oh, I, sure will.
Bye.
This episode is brought to you by Set for Life
Insurance.
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(00:27):
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Slash docs outside the box.
(01:10):
What's good everyone?
This is Dr Nii.
We have a longtime listener onthe show today.
We have Dr Lucy Mitchell.
Dr Lucy, welcome to DocsOutside the Box.
What's good?
How you doing.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Hey, thank you, very happy to be here.
I'm a longtime listener,longtime fan.
I've known your wife forever.
You were just a bald head thatI seen far away one day.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And now you just hear my voice every now and then.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yep, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, I really love connecting with longtime
listeners.
I used to listen to radio whenI was younger, particularly like
Hot 97 and so forth, so I knowpeople always say, like longtime
listener, first time caller.
So everybody, we do acceptcall-ins.
So if you guys are listening tothis show and you want to get
on, just hit us up and you canbe just like Dr Lucy and come on
(02:03):
the show.
So we have so many differentfacets of you that we are going
to explore today, more than justbeing a listener to the show,
but also, like you are takingaction, you're doing some
outside of the box things thatwe want to feature on the show.
But before we jump into that,let's take a moment.
Tell us about who you are,where you're from, tell us about
(02:24):
what your training is, whatyour specialty, and then we'll
just take it from there.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Okay, yeah, so originally I'm from Canada, you
know.
So me and my siblings and myparents are from Haiti.
So you know, we're growing upin a Haitian household.
You know straight parents, allabout education and all that
other stuff, and it's eitheryou're a doctor, lawyer,
engineer or nurse, or whatever.
And it's either you're a doctor, lawyer, engineer or nurse or
whatever Right Failure.
None of my siblings are doingthat, okay, by the way.
(02:48):
And so then my mom said, hey,we're going to move south.
So I figured, all right, we'regoing to move to Florida.
You know how Haitian folks are,so I'm thinking Florida.
So we went to Boston, I thoughtwe were visiting, but we ended
up staying for about 18 yearsyears, oh wow okay, yeah, uh-uh
nope were you in like roxbury orwhere we lived in dorchester
and mattapan dorchester?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
okay, I've heard of dorchester.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Okay, so dorchester and mattapan, and so I went to
holy cross for undergrad.
Um, I was an english major,creative minor league.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Okay, yep, pretty good, I went to lehigh so lehigh
, I know that yeah, so we usedto race you guys all the time,
so we be calling basketball, butanyway, so, okay, okay, yeah,
basketball team is pretty good.
I can't front basketball team.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, so we used to race you guys all the time, so
we'd be calling basketball, butanyway, so Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Okay, yeah, basketball team is pretty good.
I can't front.
Basketball team is pretty good.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
And so you know, after I finished Holy Cross I
went to Atlanta and then went tograd school.
And so you know, grad school,you know, got a master's in
biomedical sciences and thentook a year and a half and I a
year and a half and I wasteaching anatomy and physiology,
histoneuroanatomy, all thatcool stuff, and then went to med
school to decomm.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Now, when you were teaching, were you in Atlanta
also.
Where were you?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yes, I was teaching in Atlanta.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
All right, some of the colleges there, okay.
So you did that for how long?
So I did that for about a yearand a half straight and then
when I went to med school, youknow how you get like maybe like
two summers off between firstand second year, and so during
those times I was teaching theanatomy bootcamp at those
colleges and also at the medicalschool.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Oh, wow, so you're busy, so let's take a step back
real quick.
So from the time you graduatedfrom Holy Cross to going to DCOM
and I forget which DCOM iswhich school- the Busk College
of Osteopathic Medicine inTennessee.
In Tennessee.
So by the time you, the time inbetween graduating from college
to going to medical school, howmany years?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So college I graduated in 2007 and I started
med school in 2011.
And so between that there was agrad school.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Okay, so realistically about three and a
half years, four years, fouryears.
And in between that that's whenyou got your master's, that's
when you were teaching.
Then you went to medical schoolokay.
And then in between yoursummers of medical school, you
were making some extra cash byusing your skills as an anatomy
specialist.
So you were teaching anatomy atyour school as well as at the
other schools that you were atalso.
Yeah, okay.
(05:04):
And then, third year, it's timeto make a decision, right?
You got to make a decision asto what specialty you want to go
into, and you decided to gointo PMNR.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
So that's physical medicine and rehabilitation,
that's not how I heard.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I heard it was plenty money and rehab and relaxation.
That's what I heard.
Why are you changing thedefinition?
What's this?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I mean, you know I'm chilling, all right.
So you go into PMNR.
We got a bunch of med studentswho listen, you know, as far as
(05:44):
Guillain-Barre, to anything fromlet's see, any of those
neuromuscular disorders that youhear as a child, that you only
see in books, and strokes, braininjuries, spinal cord injuries,
trauma, yep, lots of trauma,lots of orthopedic trauma
vehicle trauma.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I think, like 80% of our patients, end up in your
hands in a physical medicine orrehab doctor's hands?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Oh, probably, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
When you want to accept them.
Excuse me, let me just clarifythat Y'all don't want to accept
nobody.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
No, they're criteria and sometimes y'all just want to
hand us to anybody.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
When y'all want to get paid.
Anyway, move on.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
We have to get, we gotta make some money.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So everybody listen.
So the majority of my patientsthat I take care of like going
home immediately after theirtrauma or even at the hospital
is really not an option.
So usually the options for themare going to a skilled nursing
facility, so like a nursing homeor going home, which can be
really difficult if they have,like, orthopedic injuries or
they have a brain injury or ifthey they have a spinal cord
injury or you know.
(06:45):
Let's say, I operate on themand I have to remove organs.
Like that takes time to recover.
So the other option is for themto go to something called
inpatient rehab and that's whereDr Lucy is taking care of
patients who are acutely injured.
They're recovering.
They're no longer like acutelyinjured, but they're recovering
and they need someone like herto help them get to the next
(07:06):
process, which is hopefullygetting home.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So yeah, and the thing about that is a lot of
like people, especially y'all,y'all surgeons, y'all don't know
the difference between acuteand patient rehab, nursing home,
skilled nursing facilities,long-term care, because all
those are all different things.
So a nursing home is not askilled nursing facility,
because a lot of people will getthose two confused Come and
educate us.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
please Tell us the difference right now.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That's why there's a lot of miscommunication there.
So a skilled nursing facilityis where somebody is, you know,
not at the point where they cantolerate the acute inpatient
rehab, but also not at the pointwhere they're going to require,
like you know, 24 seven ongoingcare like in a nursing home.
So a skilled facility is likethe in-between, and then your
(07:49):
insurance usually approves thatfor about a 20 day stay, versus
acute inpatient rehab is anaverage of 10 to 14 days and
again it could be less, it couldbe more depends on how you
progress while you're there.
And so those are the options.
Nursing home is more like of a,you know, between a long-term
place where somebody will say,hey, I can't take care of my
(08:10):
mother anymore, Maybe she can goto a nursing home and she can
stay there for X amount of time,but it's a lot longer than 20
days like a skilled nursingfacility.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Okay, and usually the big difference between a
skilled nursing facility andinpatient rehab for those who
are listening, the bigdifference is is how much rehab
can that person do right, Like,how many hours can that person
do Correct?
How many can they tolerateRight?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
A lot of times, even for acute and patient rehab it's
about three hours a day totolerate.
But somebody who needs askilled nursing may not be able
to tolerate that intense rehab,and so they can only do an hour,
one hour and a half a day, andso that's when a skilled nursing
becomes more appropriate day,and so that's when a skilled
nursing becomes more appropriate.
But they're there longerbecause they can actually, you
know, do better in that periodof time versus a three hour that
(08:48):
they're shorter because theyget more therapy in between
those times.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Okay, All right, cool .
So how long was your residency?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
So total is four years.
So your first year is yourintern year, which is, you know,
it could be a combination ofeither general surgery or
internal medicine, ortransitional, transitional year,
which is a combination of thetwo.
So that's what I did, um, andthen three years of rehab and
after that I went into afellowship.
So I did my fellowship ininterventional spine and pain.
(09:15):
So I do a lot of minimallyinvasive spine procedures.
You know your bread and butterlike epidurals and stuff, do all
those too.
But of course your spinal cordstimulators, your VertiFlex,
which is, you know, implanting adevice between the spinal
processes on the back to, youknow, help with somebody with
spinal stenosis, for example.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So oftentimes you're in the operating room you're
wearing scrubs you have likelead on because you're using a
lot of fluoroscopy and so forth.
So wow, so that's prettyimpressive.
Here's a tip when looking foryour next job, understand your
strengths and weaknesses.
For example, if you've beenpracticing for a while and you
(09:53):
know you have a problem withclosing charts, then it's
important that you find a placethat's going to help you have
administrative help right.
So there are plenty of optionswhen it comes to your career in
medicine.
But just like every patient isdifferent, every physician has
their own personal definition ofsuccess, and that's where our
sponsor steps in ProviderSolutions and Development
(10:15):
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(10:37):
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Forward slash docs outside thebox, all right.
So you?
So that's a total of four yearsof training.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Okay, four years of training and now.
Where are you located now?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
So right now I'm in private practice.
I'm in Rome, georgia, okay, andso that's where.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I am Okay, all right, and you've been listening to
Docs Outside the Box for howlong?
Now, sis, how long?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Man since forever, because you started back what
three years ago almost.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
No, I started 2016.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
So I started listening in 2017.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
2017.
Okay, so yeah, you definitelybeen there for a long time,
because 2016,.
That was the time when I onlyput out for the entire year.
I put out like 16 episodesbecause I just wasn't sure
exactly what I was doing, howconsistent I wanted to be.
And then, around late 2016, andas we start getting into 2017,
(11:41):
that's when more and more peoplemore physicians, more med
students, more people inhealthcare in general are
jumping onto the podcast waveand that's when I was like, oh
man, like I need to get moreconsistent with this, and that's
when I think we started to geta lot more listeners because we
were just putting out episodesevery week.
So I cringe listening to thoseepisodes, but I appreciate
(12:04):
people like you for stickingwith us, so I really appreciate
that.
Now, as everybody who's listenedto the show knows, we feature
docs who do things outside ofmedicine.
So I wanted to highlight whatyou do in the hospital, and
that's really great, but let'sjump into what you do outside of
medicine.
You have a design studio, youhave a company, a business
(12:28):
called Phoenix Noir Designs andPhotography.
Tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, and so what it is is because I specialize or
sub-specialize in spine and pain, and so what I ended up doing
is getting images of my ownspine, not just for fun, but
because you know they wereneeded at the time, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I was about to say I was like, wait, you just going
in there just doing floor onyour back, how you do that.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
No, it was actually needed for specific reasons.
And so, um, what I ended updoing is saying, wow, because my
L5 S1, you know, the disc isalmost gone and I'm young.
So people are like, you know,wow, that's crazy.
But also I have a you knowlistesis, so that's like a
slippage of one vertebrae overthe other, right at that same
level.
And so I was like, wow, myspine looks, you know, jacked up
(13:18):
, you know.
And so I started just kind ofplaying around with it in some
of my programs and and I'm doingsome abstract, turning my spine
into some abstract art andpeople were like, wow, that's
pretty cool.
You know, what is that?
What'd you get it from?
And I'm like what?
No, that's my spine, like whatyou mean.
And so I started doing more ofit and people started like what
(13:39):
are you doing Like?
I have Element, I have ToolWiz,I have all these different, you
know, like programs that I useBecause I used to.
I was doing art since I was inmiddle school.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
But when you started, you were just like.
You did this on purpose atfirst, or were you trying to
like look at your spine better?
It was on purpose?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
No, it was on purpose .
I was kind of messing aroundwith it.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Okay, I was in lectures.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
I was like, okay, well, that's pretty cool, people
are starting asking more aboutit.
And then one time a nurse said,hey, you know what you get that
, how much is it?
I'm like, well, what?
And I just gave a random priceand she was like, all right,
cool, sold.
I was like, oh, okay, yeah, wow, wow.
So people will pay for yourartwork, okay yeah, and so then
I started doing more of it, moreof it, and people would say,
hey, you, I have like a needthat has been jacked up.
You know, here's my MRI, youknow how much you charge.
And so then that's when Istarted saying, hey, you know
(14:30):
what this can be, my little youknow thing.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
So this is now like 2018, 2018.
Okay, yeah 2018.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So it wasn't, you know, nothing serious.
You know I was kind of saying,okay, here and there, kind of
doing stuff, but then I reallytook it seriously, you know,
after this whole panic attackthat I had, you know, in 2019.
And that's when I started, youknow, jumping on that even more
seriously and, you know, startedgetting the website out.
I think I got the website outlast year and then now it's, you
know, full-blown running and Ido a lot more than just spines.
(15:03):
I do different body parts.
You know I've done like aninitial emblation for like an
OBGYN.
You know I also do a lot ofabstract acrylic paintings, and
so a lot of folks want theoriginal paintings, and so I've
been doing that as well too.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So do you got to get permission for.
So who like you're getting thisis like patients that you're
taking some of the photos, theimages of and no, they were my.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
They were originally all mine.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, so they were all my spine images, so I didn't
have any patient images.
They were all mine that I wasusing to create the different
designs.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But the current art that you're using right now.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
So my our current art is all mine still.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Gotcha.
So there's so many differentways to use.
You know your spine images andso, but they're all mine.
The one that I sell and put out, they're all mine.
If somebody were to ask me todo theirs, you know I do theirs,
you know to pay for it, I getthem theirs, but I don't resell
like their spines.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
How long does it take to do a piece of art?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
It depends.
Sometimes it could take me, youknow I'll go all day Saturday
and just be in my zone and justyou know focus on that.
At times it could take anywherefor like several days to a few
weeks, and that's for like spinestuff.
If I'm doing acrylic paintings,you know it'll take me about,
you know, several days to do thepainting, but then the painting
(16:17):
itself needs to cure or dry forat least like three to four
weeks, cause there's a lot oflayers on it.
And then, once it's dried, thenI have to like do a varnish or
add resin, which is the top coatlayer, and all those take time
as well too.
So before we hopped on thisshow, I was actually doing some
layers to some paintings okay,so for those who are listening
(16:37):
to the show.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
on just a podcast you can't see, but if you're
watching on YouTube, you can seea piece of artwork that Dr Lucy
has sent to us.
Let me see if I can get thiscentered better.
Like this is some beautifulartwork, so is this you.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
This is me.
This was at the very beginningof the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
So this is you.
It looks like you have a maskon and your hair is over one eye
.
You look like Aaliyah.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
All right, I was actually crying, I was just
upset, I was mad, I was pissedoff, I was angry because, you
know, I was seeing a lot ofpeople my age, you know dying
and in a matter of days, and itwas just exhausting.
I couldn't go home to my kidsyou know my husband, so it was a
lot going on at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Now, dr Lucy, you are PM&R, so like tell us about
like what happened in thatsituation.
Did they, did you get likedeputized and you had to do like
different types of?
Did you have to do thingsoutside of your scope during the
like the height of the pandemic?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
So during that time I was actually in fellowship
during the pandemic, and so, asa fellow, even though we were
doing all the individual spineand pain stuff, we still had to,
you know, do our duties at thehospital as well too.
And part of the rehab unit wasconverted into, you know, a
COVID ward basically, and soeven though they were on, you
know, covid patients, they wouldstill have your responsibility
(17:57):
because they were technically onyour unit at the end of the day
, and so there was a lot of thatgoing on, and I actually had
the first COVID patient in thehospital at the time when I was
doing my fellowship.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Where did you do your fellowship?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
at.
I did it at Alamo OrthoSportsand Spine in Birmingham.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
All right, and so we did the PM&R part at Grandview
and St Vincent's East.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Got you, got you Okay .
So that I mean that had to be alittle crazy, though right.
Like I mean, this is not thetypical type of patient that
you're doing most of yourtraining on.
You know, I'm sure you have toisolate for C, diff and all
these, but that's a different.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
That was a different beast, yeah, and so because
there weren't any protocols, andso myself and my co-fellows, we
ended up writing a protocol forCOVID, for the rehab unit,
which ended up being theprotocol for the hospital at the
same time, also during our time.
Yeah, we try.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Okay, okay.
Well, that piece of art thatyou guys just saw, that is dope,
that's going into the studio.
You can find more about herpaintings, her design, at
Phoenix Noir.
Let me see Where's the website.
I thought I have that I'm goingto put in the show notes.
If I don't have it up here, Ishould have it here, but-.
Speake (19:05):
SOSPhoenixNoirDesignscom .
Speaker 1 (19:07):
There you go, so I'm going to put in the show notes
so people can support that.
So you say it takes anywherebetween, like what, 24 hours to
maybe several weeks, dependingon if it's an acrylic painting
for you to get something outlike that.
And then you said that you werepainting when you were in
middle school.
So from the time when you werein middle school to when you
became a physician, or even tothe point where you started
(19:30):
making this a business, were youstill dabbling and working in
paint, or did you have to laythat down so that you can really
focus on medicine?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
So I was still dabbling here and there, but I
did lay it down during residency, like the first couple years of
residency.
It kind of laid down just alittle bit, but then I started
picking it up just here andthere, once in a blue moon, like
for the photography portionportion.
You know, when you're aresident you get like those
pictures of you on a website sothey can see who the residency
class is.
Well, so far, the class beforemine and all the ones way before
(19:58):
that, they all looked like dulland it was a cloudy day and it
looked it just looked a hot mess.
And so I asked my programdirector.
I said, hey, can I take overand do like the pictures for our
class and the class that comesafter us, because these pictures
don't look right.
And she was like yeah, yeah,sure, whatever, go at it.
So I did that and everybodywould from different programs
would say, hey, what y'all gotpictures done, where y'all go,
(20:19):
is it the'm like?
No, this is outside thebuilding, we just made it look
nice you know, and so that kindof started yeah, and so that
started, you know, gettingbusiness in that direction.
As far as other programs wantedme to, you know, do some of
their photos for their residentsand things of that sort too, so
I enjoyed doing that duringresidency.
So that's where I started kindof slowly picking that back up
(20:40):
even more and more during thattime.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So, when you're working or not working, when you
are creating, where's your mindat?
Like how you know cause it's?
I can imagine, like you, it'srelated to anatomy, it's related
to what you do, it's your, youknow, it's your body that you're
basically manipulating andcreating into art.
But I just am interested wheredoes your mind go when you're
doing this, this, like thedoctor mind that's creating, or
(21:03):
is this the other side of yourbrain?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
yeah, it is definitely not the doctor mind,
because at that point I try toshut down you know, the outside
from like work and everything.
If I had a bad day at work, yousee it in my art because like
dark colors and it's like whatthe hell is this?
You know, it's just very dark.
Sometimes if I'm having a greatday, it's going to be these
bright colors.
You know it's colorful.
And sometimes if I'm justhaving a just a regular, like
you know, just go around day,then it can be a mixture of
(21:29):
things.
But my mind is usually not onwork, or how do I make this look
like more like a spine, or howdo I do this?
Definitely not in my mind.
At that point I'm usually have,like you know, some ratchet
music in my ear, you know,whatever just going why you got
to be ratchet Dr going why yougot to be ratchet.
Dr Lucy, why you got to beratchet.
Sometimes I be ratchet, but forreal, and a lot of times you
(21:49):
know I'm playing my TI in my earand I'm on go.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Okay, all right, all right.
Well, look like, I think, fromthe outside looking in, someone
who's listening to this show,you know you can hear little
things that you're saying hereand there.
That's piecemealing what'sgoing on behind the scenes.
But let's go get under thesurface right, because I think
surface level is like oh okay,pm&r, you're fellowship trained,
you're doing your thing, you'reworking on design.
(22:13):
On the side, you know peopleare buying your artwork.
I have a piece of your artworkthat's great.
So let's go deeper, because,from the way how I understand
things, it seems like you havethings together now.
But the way how I understandthis, all of this started with a
panic attack in residency.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, it sure did.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Let's get into that.
Take us to residency.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So it was.
I was on EMGs that rotation,right and I was done for the
morning.
You know we still have someafternoon patients, but I was
just starting, you know I wasdone for the morning.
You know we still have someafternoon patients, but I was
just starting, you know I wasdone.
Then you know it's time for meto pay my monthly student loan
payment, because I didn't haveit on auto draft at the time,
right?
And so I see that figureliterally every single month by
(22:54):
clockwork.
But that day I don't know whathappened.
But when I opened it up to makethat payment and I legit just
screamed, I was pissed, Iscreamed.
I was like you know, thecomputers that belong like even
like little boost and stuff inyour program.
I was shaking my computer.
My tenant came running down thehall so I'm like what's wrong?
(23:15):
Are you okay?
I'm like look at that shit.
He was like what?
I'm like, look at this shit.
And he just looked.
He's like whoa, what is that?
I'm like that's how much moneyI gotta fucking pay.
And he was like, just, you know,calm down.
I'm like, no, I'm not gonnacalm down.
I'm like this is fucking.
I mean, I'm going off.
You know, just like he's calm,he's cool.
(23:36):
You know he's like yo.
He's like do you need a moment?
I don't want a fucking moment.
I need to get out of here.
I can't stand this place.
I love my program I really dobut that day it went from A to Z
100, whatever.
I was not having it.
I was legit panicking, like myheart rate was up, my blood
pressure was through the roofand I was like you know what?
I got to go.
(23:56):
I got to go and I walked out.
You know and luckily you knowhe's still a very understanding
you know he texted me, said hey,just take the rest of your day
off, I'll finish up thisafternoon.
But just be all right.
So you know I was going to gohome.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Have you ever had a panic attack before this?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Nope, not at all.
So I was going to go home, butI couldn't even drive home.
Like literally, I got in my car, I drove one block and pulled
into the CVS parking lot and Iwas literally, you know, hitting
my steering wheel.
I was going, I got out, hit mycar a few times, that shit hurt
(24:43):
and it came back inside and Iwas like you know what I got to
call somebody.
And at first I called my husband, you know, and I'm just like
yelling at him and he don't knowwhat's going on.
And he was like, well, are youin any danger?
I was like no, but you're aboutto be, you know, just going off
.
And he was like, well, takeyour time.
Just, you know, chill out,relax.
You don't do what you got to do.
And then you know when you'reokay, you know, just come home.
Thoughts as far as, like youknow how, you know FedLoan, suck
and all the other stuff,whatever.
(25:04):
So I'm like you know what,who's going to get this?
I'm like you know what I'mgoing to call Renee.
So I called your wife.
Luckily she picked up the phoneand we had a long conversation,
you know, in the sense ofstudent loans and debt and you
know how.
You know it's not just me goingthrough all this stuff.
A lot of people are goingthrough this.
(25:24):
But having their head in thesand and literally that was my
head popping up, I think thatmoment was for me.
It was like I literally openedmy eyes and popped up out of the
sand and was like what the fuck?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, that's the best way to describe it.
Yeah, everything just seemslike numbers in the cloud, or
it's just these letters that youget, emails, and you're like
that's not that big of a dealuntil you, until you get your
head out of sand and you realizethe implications and you're
like oh yeah, and for me thatmoment, yeah, it was it.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Whatever happened that day.
I mean, the light bulb came onand I was like, oh shit, you
like I have to pay this shitback.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
So how did you calm down?
What calmed you down I'veobviously talking to Renee
calmed you down.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, a whole lot.
But then, you know, while I wasin the car, you know, I took
out a piece of paper and a penand just started writing things
down as far as, like, I wentthrough all the debts that I had
, from my credit card debt to-.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
In the car you were writing this down.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
In the car?
Yeah, because I was parked.
I was a CVS parking lot parked,okay, you know.
And so I'm looking at, like, mystudent loans.
I wrote all those things down.
I looked at my loans from gradschool because I didn't have any
undergrad loans.
So I'm looking at grad school,writing all this stuff down
Credit cards, car.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I mean the whole nine .
So I have like a list and Istill have that list to this day
.
Actually, can I ask how muchyou totaled it all up to be in
terms of debt?
Let's go, let's go, let's go,come on, come on.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Dr Lucy tell us oh yeah, it was over 630K, Damn.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Like of your debt.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Of mine.
That's not including myhusband's anything.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
That was me, so for so medical school was obviously
the majority of that.
And then you had undergrad debtand then, no, I didn't have any
undergrad debt.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Undergrad was 100 paid for okay, so I had a full
ride for that.
I was I'm in boston at the timewhen if you were valedictorian
then you got to go to whateverschool you were accepted to free
of charge.
So who was it?
Thomas marina was the mayor andthat was like one of his little
things that he had going on atthe time.
Um, and so undergrad full ride,grad school not so much, and so
that's you know, had to pay forthat.
(27:29):
And then med school was the big, you know, yeah, and so then I
was like you know what?
All right, here's my debt,here's all this stuff.
I had the interest rates, youknow, I had the whole nine.
All this is all in the car, allin the car, all in the car.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Oh, wow, so you yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Until I had it all mapped out and had a plan,
because I had to go.
When I went home, I wanted tobe calm, I want to be cool.
You know I have kids.
You know I didn't want to gofor them, which I do sometimes.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
But that's another story.
$600,000 in student loan debtand you had a plan before you
came home, or you just hadeverything written out by the
time you got home.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
No, no, no, I had a plan.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Oh, I was in the car for hours.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
How come Dr Renee didn't tell me about this?
Call yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I was in the car for literally hours.
I'd run inside a CVS for snacks, drinks, go back in my car and
just hash it out in my car.
So by the time I got home I litout, you know.
I said, hey, this is my plan,here's what I'm going to do.
You know, it was ABC XYZ kindof situation, and so the first
thing I wanted to tackle was mywhat I had left for grad school,
(28:39):
which is about 70K for gradschool.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Okay, and what point of your residency is this now?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
This is my last year of residency.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Your last year of residency.
So you decided that you want totake out your grad school loans
while in residency.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yep While making a resident salary.
Yes, here's the kicker.
And so this was the spring of2019.
So that means that I'm going tograduate in a few months from
residency.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Right, right when most people should be stacking
cash.
You trying to pay off Right, Igot you.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
And also starting my fellowship.
My fellowship didn't startuntil later on that year, and so
my goal was to in 2019, thisshit got to go like that.
At least the grad school stuffneeded to get out of there, and
so I started moonlighting likecrazy.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
What specialty were you moonlighting in?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I did urgent care.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Urgent care Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
So I started and the thing is that, you know, I
didn't know anybody in theurgent care industry.
I just started, like you know,asking people around because
none of my residents, of course,moonlight.
And so I started asking around,you know, other residents and
things of that sort, and thenone of the urology residents hit
me up and said hey, you knowshe's moonlighting here, but
she's about to start herfellowship in Atlanta, so you
know she'll put in a good workfor me, which she did.
(29:49):
And I started, you know, maybeabout a month later.
After all the credentialingstuff started a month later and
moonlighted any time I had.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
I mean just so you decided that the first thing was
to get all of your debt in oneplace, figure out on a piece of
paper or whatever it is, findout what debt you have, all the
interest rate where all yourdebts are belonging like, who
owns them, and so forth.
And I guess this next step wasyou just realized that you had
an income issue, so that's whyyou decided to do urgent care.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah, because the thing is that you know, when
you're a residency, you don'tget that much money.
First of all, right, and youknow there's two kids.
Right, and you got to eat, yougot to stay, whatever.
And so what I'm doing wassaying the credit card debt got
to go and the grad school debtgot to go.
All that just needed to be justout of sight, because I wanted
(30:42):
to, by the end of the day, justhave, you know, the car and my
student loans.
And at the time, you know, youknow it was just like an
apartment kind of thing, right,well, it was a house that we
were just renting, and so Iworked my ass off, like even a
fellowship.
You know, now that I'm done, Ican say whatever I want to say.
So you know, we're supposed tomoonlight during fellowship, but
I, I did All right, because Ihave things to pay off, you know
(31:04):
, because you're not going toget paid a lot when you're a
fellow either.
So I ended up in 2019 payingoff about 70K worth of debt, and
so that knocked out all creditcard debt and grad school.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
So 70K in residency.
So, and you said you by thetime this occurred, when you had
your panic attack and you madethe plan, this is towards the
end of your residency.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yep.
Wow, I was a couple months shyfrom graduation, from residency.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
So this was all done right before you finished
residency.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So the plan was.
But then so 2019, that wholeyear.
So finished residency andstarted fellowship, and so then
during that entire time that'swhen that was paid off.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Wow, man, that's props to you.
So what was that feeling likewhen you finished that set of
debt?
What did you think in your mindwhen that was done?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I was like, oh, you know, I could keep going.
So what ended up happening wasthat the credit card was paid
off first, and so that was cool.
And then for the grad school,there were two separate loans
for grad school, and so Iremember making a big chunk
payment to pay one of those off,and that feeling I mean just to
press send, you know, causethat's a lot of money going out
(32:13):
with that kind of money.
And so it was some hesitation tosend you know.
But once I did and then after awhile you see it all cleared
off and you see it on yourcredit report cleared off, it
was the best feeling in theworld.
I was like you know what, let'stackle this next one, and then
you know this next one.
And so we kind of became thatroller coaster.
But even though I was able toaccomplish you know all that, I
felt good about it.
(32:34):
That still doesn't take care ofthe rest of the $532K left for
med school, because my medschool was not a state school,
it was a private school.
So they're super expensive,super expensive.
And then I was taking out themax because when I started med
school my daughter was two.
She's 13 now.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, let's talk about that, because I did an
episode about that, how I didthe same thing.
I maxed my loans out, for themain reason is I just didn't
want to have to ask my parentsfor any money.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
They have any money.
My parents you know Jack, youknow they.
They, you know they'reimmigrants from Haiti.
You know when they came to this, you know Canada and the States
my, my dad worked, but then Iremember seeing his paycheck
when it was on a table, cause hewould come home when he gets
paid and gave my mom thepaycheck, and I remember seeing
how much he made my dad wasmaking.
You know, less than $9 an hour,less than $9 an hour in Boston,
(33:26):
y'all, and so we didn't haveany money like at all.
And so when it came to medschool, whatever like, my
parents couldn't help foranything, period.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Did you see that?
There was a report that cameout several years ago, maybe
like two or three years ago,where it said like the average
black family in Boston, liketheir net worth is like $8.
Did you see that?
Did you hear that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
But I don't, I mean, I believe it.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, because it's crazy, yeah, you know, because
if you're not owning, if youdon't- own a home if you're
renting right if you don't haveanything saved up for retirement
.
I definitely believe it.
It sounds shocking until youactually start to put things
together and you're like, ohyeah, that's believable, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yep, it sure is.
And you know, being up therefor about 18 years, yeah,
definitely, most definitely.
And so med school my parentscouldn't pay for or help pay for
anything.
So you know you gotta be outthere to live, right.
So I had an apartment and stuff.
You know, gotta raise the kidsand all that good stuff.
My husband's law enforcement,you know at the time as well too
(34:26):
, still is, but you know it'svery beginning stages of stuff,
right, and so you pretty muchdon't have anything, and so my
account was always, you know,red, because they was looking at
and that's how the credit cardstuff, you know, kind of started
back up again, right.
You, you know well, started inmed school because you know what
else are you going to push thephone, but then when you're
applying for residency, you'retraveling, you're interviewing.
(34:47):
All that adds up at the end ofthe day, you know.
And my daughter was two yearsold again when I started.
Now she's 13,.
But you know, and in betweenthat you know, we had a.
I have a son too now, so he'sfour, and you know my daughter
grew up in that time as far asseeing the whole cycle in the
sense of when I started medschool she was two.
So when I was studying foranatomy or whatever, I would
(35:18):
literally sneak her into the labbefore hours, you know, and her
and a couple of my greatfriends to this day.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
You know we'd go in there and then we'd study.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
You know, I had to put her in a trash bag so that
way I could keep her clean.
Talking about my daughterGotcha, I had to put her in a
trash bag so that way I couldkeep her clean.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Talking about my daughter Gotcha Gotcha, and if
so I could sit her on a cadaver.
So while we're dissecting andstudying, she's right there so I
could keep my eye on her youknow, wow, wow Say that again
you had to do what, like youweren't playing Like.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
This is dedication.
I want to hear this again.
Yeah, inside, pick her up, sither on a cadaver, put a scrub
top on her, give her some glovesyou know so that way and put
scrunchie around because she'slittle.
So push, crunch she around herlittle arms with the gloves,
that way, you know, she couldkeep clean while we're studying
on a cadaver and keep an eye onher.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Wow, and she wasn't freaked out or anything by the,
by the dead bodies, I mean shewas too well, she, she don't
know that for real right, youknow right.
Does she talk about it to thisday like, does she?
Does she still remember that?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
well, she remembers part of it because she remembers
sometimes being in a study roomand me setting up a little tent
for her.
She thought she was goingcamping but we'd be studying
overnight, you know, in thestudy halls or whatever.
So she remembers some of that.
She remembers some stuff in thecadaver lab, but not much, you
know at the time and so, butthat's how we know we had to get
it done.
So, you know, I had a village,you know, in med school, and
that village is still my villageto this day.
(36:23):
But I would not have been ableto get through without my
homegirls, you know, because youknow I have to study just as
much as everybody else.
And so, yes, I had a daughter.
But, hey, I had to make ithappen.
There were times when I take herto daycare, daycare be closed
for no reason.
I take her to daycare Daycarebe closed for no reason.
It's not a holiday, it'snothing, and I have a major test
(36:47):
that morning in like minutes.
So I remember one time Iliterally just say you know what
, fuck it Ran to school, ran tothe Dean's office it was Dean
Stowers I ran upstairs to Dean'soffice with my daughter, got
back on hand, I was like, hey,here you go, dr Stowers, I'll be
right back.
And he's like what?
I'm like, look, I got a test totake.
(37:08):
But you got this right, you gotkids, you got this.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
And I would bust out the door, leave my daughter with
D Stowers and take my test andI would come back upstairs and
they would have the whole suiteturn into like a little play
thing for her no-transcript thatmaybe be able to be a little
(37:46):
bit of a side hustle, like aviable side hustle, where that
could help you pay off yourloans or even just provide just
a certain level of lifestyle foryou.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, it's definitely getting there for sure, because
I've been getting a lot ofrequests for commission pieces,
for paintings, even thehospitals, and so right now if
you go to some hospitals you'llsee my paintings up there,
originals and also prints thatthey have, and so I've been
getting a lot of traffic and soa lot of requests and so I think
(38:16):
last week, I think I shippedoff six paintings last week and
they went to different places inthe US and even to Canada.
So I'm trying.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Good, good, no, you're doing, you're doing,
which, actually, what you justsaid leads me to my next point.
Like you know, one of the lastthings that when I talk with my
guests or when I have them fillout forms for them to come on
the show, is, like, what are theaction steps that you want the
audience, the listeners, to walkaway from?
Right, and I make them listthree steps, and you've listed
(38:49):
three steps.
But number two is the one that,for me, I think is going to
resonate with a lot more people,which is stop waiting and stop
being scared, just get out thereand get started now, which
definitely is like, apropos,considering what you're doing
right now.
Right, it's not even I'm trying, it's I'm doing.
Right, like, you are doing it,you're starting it.
(39:10):
So let's, let's talk a littlebit about that.
Like, how important is it tolike really stop like the whole,
like conceptualizing and, youknow, describing things and
planning things out and justdoing.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Talk to us about that things and planning things out
and just doing Talk to us aboutthat, yeah.
And so even for Phoenix store.
I remember when I spoke toRenee one time and I said, hey,
you know, I'm thinking aboutgetting a website up and started
getting myself out there.
But then I spent so much timeon the planning and thinking and
said, well, maybe it won't begood enough or I don't think
we're really going to dig it forreal, and so I took literally
(39:42):
about eight months in that space.
And then there was an episodethat you had about mindset you
know as far as all, aboutchanging your mindset.
And instead of you know saying,well, maybe, maybe this just
okay, you know what this is,what it's going to be and after
that episode I was like, youknow what, you know, he's right,
you know what?
Just screw it.
I've been thinking about thisforever.
(40:03):
I've been planning, criticalplanning forever.
I'm just going to do it andjust, you know, go live with my
website, go live with everything.
You know I joined some otherlike art groups on Facebook.
Before this, all my groups onFacebook were all medical
related, right, and so now Ijoined some art communities on
Facebook and Instagram and sojust put myself out there and
the response has beenoverwhelmingly great, you know.
(40:27):
And all because of a mindsetshift, because a lot of times,
you know, if we're in a space ofokay, well, I'm planning this
and I'm planning that, butthere's no action being taken
except for just planning, thenyou're not really going anywhere
.
You're spending too much timeplanning when you could have
been doing something and been somuch further along than before.
So if I started this, you know,when I started planning I said,
(40:50):
okay, I'm planning this, butthen you know, let me just start
putting things out there Iwould have been a lot further
along than I am now.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah, and you know.
So here's what I always tellpeople, so what I always tell
people.
So I started Docs Outside theBox in 2016.
I've actually beenconceptualizing it since 2014.
I didn't take action andactually start putting out
episodes since then.
And if you went to, if youlooked on my Google Docs that's
where I keep all of my notesthere's notes that go far back
as 2014, talking about how tostart a podcast, which way,
(41:18):
which microphone am I going toget, and so forth.
So for me, in my mind, prior tothat, the work was being done,
you know, prior to 2016.
But whenever I tell people whenI started the podcast, when I'm
, how long have I been doingthis, I say 2016, because when
you really look at it, like thework is when you actually start
doing things right.
So when people say, well, howlong you've been paying off debt
(41:38):
, it's not like how long you'vebeen conceptualizing, it's like
when did you start putting inthat work?
Same thing with students whoare in professional school.
Like you know that wholeconcept of well, I won't start
practicing for a test until Istart studying the entire book
for the test, when it reallyshould be.
You need to start doingquestions first, so that you
know exactly what the so youknow exactly where you stand.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
first, so that you know exactly where you stand.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Where you stand or even what the test takers want.
Right, that's the mostimportant thing.
What do the test takers want?
And the only way you canunderstand that, to pass this
test, is by taking tests,reading the book and reading the
chapters.
How do you know what's the mostimportant concept to take from
there?
So, the same thing with thispodcast, the same thing with
Phoenix Noir it's all aboutliterally taking action, and I
think that's the thing that Iwant the listeners to take away
(42:24):
from is like the work is not inconceptualizing.
The work is in actually doingsomething, taking a choice and
then dealing with theconsequences afterwards.
That's where the work comes in.
Well, I took, you know I took.
There was a fork in the road, Iwent left and because of that,
x, y and Z happened, and this iswhat I did to mitigate it.
That's where the work is atNodding, drawing all of these
(42:46):
different diagrams on your walland on your vision board and
saying that's not where all thework is done.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, because I see it as far as if you're going to
a code, you're not saying, allright, let me get my ACLS book
out, let me see plan Oh're inB-Tech, what do we do for B-Tech
?
You're not doing that, andthat's what we spend so much
time doing in real life, versusjust saying, hey, you know all
right around an epi or whatever,whatever you know, just going
into taking charge.
And so the same thing as far asif you have a plan or an idea,
(43:14):
just take charge and just go forit.
Otherwise you're going to behitting yourself on the head
years down the line saying, well, I could have been so much
further, I should have done this, I should have done that, I
should have, could have, wouldhave whatever you know, just do
it.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Or you're going to be pissed.
Someone took your idea.
There's always room there'salways room for multiple people
to come into a space and youcould always do things your way,
but when you are the firstperson in there, that founder's
effect there's nothing.
There's nothing like that.
But this was super dope.
Dr Lucy, Thank you so much forsharing your story.
(43:46):
Thank you so much for sharingthis piece of artwork.
Let me show it again For allthe people who are on the
podcast.
This is what y'all get.
You should be listening orwatching on YouTube anyway, but
this is some of the dope artworkthat Dr Lucy is creating.
You can check it out on herwebsite.
We're going to have the linksto her website and the show
notes, but once again, this isDr Lucy, longtime listener,
(44:08):
artist, PM&R, mom, wife payingoff her debt, and she's going
through the process.
Right now.
You still got $500,000, alittle bit plus and more to get
towards it and you will getthrough it, absolutely For sure
Because nobody else is going topay it off, hey listen.
When you finish paying off yourdebt, you come back on the show.
We'll have you do a debt-freescream Forget Dave.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Ramsey, oh sure.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
You do a Docs, outside the Box, debt-free,
scream up on this.
All right.
So listen, dr Lucy, tell peoplewhere they can once again, tell
people where they can onceagain tell us about the website
where they can find your artworkand maybe even purchase them.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, so the website is wwwphoenixnoirdesignscom.
You can find me on Facebook andInstagram under Phoenix Noir
Designs.
I answer all your questions.
As far as your DMs andeverything else, I'm always in
there.
I was not as active on socialmedia until I started putting
myself out there and I haveloved the response ever since
(45:07):
then, and so I'm very active onmy social media feeds and stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
So there it is, guys.
So listen, go and check theshow notes.
You will find links for DrLucy's artwork Phoenix Noir
Designs and Photography, whereshe transforms images of human
spines into beautiful abstractartwork.
Dr Lucy artwork Phoenix NoirDesigns and Photography, where
she transforms images of humanspines into beautiful abstract
artwork.
Dr Lucy, thanks again forcoming on.
Docs, outside the Box, makesure you come back when you pay
off all your debt.
All right.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Oh, I, sure will.
Bye.
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