REPLAY: Medical Students Financial Implications. #397

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As we navigate the tumultuous seas of medical education's financial demands, you'll discover the myriad of ways it shapes decisions, lifestyles, and the future of healthcare. Joined by Dr. Love Anani from the Student National Medical Association (SNMA), we're celebrating 60 years of the organization's incredible support for medical students as we dissect the costs from MCAT to residency. Delve into our candid exchange on how the weight of student loans can alter career paths and delay life’s milestones, and learn why choosing a specialty isn't just about passion but often a calculation tinged with economic considerations.

Imagine a world where your student debt doesn't chain down your aspirations but acts as a springboard to your dreams. You'll see that Dr. Love treats student loans like a utility bill—steady, manageable, and non-crippling. Together with his wife, also a physician, they've crafted a repayment strategy that's ambitious yet grounded. Their aim: to clear their loans without letting them eclipse the joy of their profession or life's pleasures. 

In an era where the price tag on medical education skyrockets without a corresponding leap in resident salaries, we contemplate the ethical quandaries and barriers this creates. The narrative isn't all grim; our discussions on strategic indulgences, the distinction between good and bad debt, and how even the smallest contributions to organizations like the SNMA can ripple into significant impact, will leave you inspired. Join us as we dissect these issues, and more, offering a lifeline of advice and solidarity to those embarking on the noble journey of a medical career.

Medical student’s loans statistics- https://images.app.goo.gl/gNk2FSPLJP6JuEit8

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Education in general.
There has to be a barrier,because if everyone could go to
med school, everyone would go tomed school, right?
First it's prereqs, thenthere's the MCAT, then there's
cost, right, they're going toput that in there.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
But why does the cost have to exponentially increase?
The body ain't mutating.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Everybody out there right now.
You know, with your scrubs orbackpack or shoes or car, you
know the price tag of thosethings and if the value was
lower you may not be asinterested.
When you attach a cost tosomething, it looks better to
everybody else and I thinkpeople still attach that cost to
medical school.
So that's why these medicalschools continue to adjust the
cost as they're moving forward.
So, yes, the body's notmutating, but society is.

(00:38):
Interest rates are.
They're gonna continue to go up.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Hey, we talk about locum tenants a lot on this show
, renee and I.
We've been doing it for wellover 10 years now.
So if you're curious aboutlocum tenants and how it might
fit into your career, check outlocumstorycom.
That's locumstorycom, andyou'll see all the different
reasons why physicians chooselocums and how it works for them
.
Find out about jobs, taxes,travel and, to me, most

(01:06):
importantly pay.
Visit locumstorycom to learnmore.
What's good everyone.
This is Dr Nii, host of DocsOutside the Box.
Listen, this is a specialepisode.
This is a collaboration betweenDocs Outside the Box and my
favorite organization, theorganization that got me through
medical school socially as wellas academically, the one, the

(01:29):
only the Student NationalMedical Association.
And guess what?
Next year will be 60 years ofthe amazing work of the Student
National Medical Association,and we are joined by the one,
the only, dr Love.
Anani, dr Love, tell them whoyou are and then we're going to
jump right into this.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Hello everybody.
It's the Docs Outside the Boxfamily.
This is crazy to be on thepodcast on this side.
My name is Dr Love Anani.
I am the professional boardmember to the EC for S&MA year
23 to 24.
We're hype about the 60th.
I'm hyped to be here 23 to 24.

(02:10):
We're hype about the 60th.
I'm hyped to be here.
For anyone who listens to thepodcast, yes, I am the Doc with
the Lucid that need be talkingabout.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
It's me.
I will throw it out there.
It's me.
I got to give you props for notbeing anonymous because a lot
of people you know, once theyget to that point, you know
they're like I'm going to comeon as Dr X or you know.
Just don't say my name.
But yes, you do drive a Lucid,which is higher in cost than a
Model X Plaid, but it's dope andI've seen it driving around.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yours is white or black, black black black
everything.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Go ahead, go ahead.
I feel like the car is flashy,it's out there.
I can't hide it anymore.
You know, you know.
I just I need the world to know.
The secret was weighing on meheavily and I feel like I had to
step up for the lucid ownerswho listen to the podcast and
hear you talk now it's not thatmany.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
There's not that many , it's very infinitesimal how
many lucid owners there are it'sreal small so how many years in
before you got your lucid whichanybody who doesn't know lucid
is, is EV is out there how manyyears in before you decided, hey
, I'm going to purchase this car?

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Years is.
I became an attending 2015, andI did not buy it until 2021.
No, 2022.
It's only like a year and somechange.
Basically, once our cars werefully paid off, we got my wife a
new car.
The kids started to grow.
I decided, hey, I need aelectric vehicle now.

(03:29):
It's about time.
We're stable on everything.
And I actually Googled Tesla.
I was going to go the Teslaroute and I was like, no, no, no
, I've been saying I want aluxury car.
I thought I was going Lexus mywhole life.
And then I looked up luxury EVand Lucid popped up.
I looked into the whole companyand what they were doing, Found
out they're one motor trend carof the year.

(03:50):
I was sold right there.
Oh my God, here we go.
I was sold.
That was me.
I was sold, All right.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
I'll be really honest At every point.
The car is better than a Tesla.
I'll be very honest with you.
It's nice.
The question is is are y'allgonna be there in five years?
So I'm teasing it's real talk.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
I can't even hang on that like it's real day the way
how these EV companies are like.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
They come out but you don't know if they gonna finish
, but they at least they deliverfor you.
I've seen the car, I've been ina car.
It is amazing, it's great.
The reason I asked you thatquestion, y'all, is because I
just want y'all to know that,like, like dr, is the specific
um is doing the things thatspecifically I'm talking about,
which is, you know, he canafford anything he wants, but he
can't afford everything, right?

(04:30):
So you wait until you get to acertain point in your career.
Maybe your loans are paid off,or maybe you reached a certain
um career trajectory, maybeyou've gotten a certain
promotion, um, or just maybe youjust reached a certain net
worth, right, but you put in thehard work first and then you
said, okay, listen, this is thecard that I've always wanted, or
this is the card that I want.
Let's go ahead and make ithappen.
And, if I understand youcorrectly also, isn't this car

(04:51):
specifically for business only?
So you, you've put in a part ofan llc also.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
I did do that part of the llc, because my hospital
where I work from where I liveis 40 minutes just about, so I
felt like I was polluting theenvironment every day, and at
the hospital I'm also themedical director.
So I was going for meetingsmultiple times a week, driving
home to work, and I just feltlike I was going oh poor earth,
poor earth.
Right, keep going.
I'm listening.
Hey look y'all.

(05:17):
I'm one of those consciouspeople I'll be looking like look
when it's 50 degrees, when it's60 degrees in.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
December.
You know there's a Prius.
You know there's Prius.
Right, that's far cheaper, butkeep going.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
But if I'm going to not pollute the earth, I'm going
to not pollute the earth instyle, so other people can say
you know what I'm not going topollute the earth, either
there's a Nissan Leaf.
No one looks at an Leaf andsays, yeah, I'm going to do that
to better the earth and thenthat's what I'm doing now and
I'm doing that through mybusiness.

(05:46):
That covers all those miles.
I use Stride for my app.
I was into the other apps Y'allsuggest.
Stride was free and keeps trackof the miles.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
I love it.
So basically, the mileage thatyou use to drive back and forth,
that all of that stuff getsaccumulated and becomes a tax
write-off, it makes sure thetotal amount of taxes that you
have to pay, that decreases yourtaxes by a certain amount.
That car, the payments, acertain portion of that is
decreased by a certain amount.
You're doing it the right way.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
I think, yeah, y'all do it better though.
I heard y'all last podcastbecause I'm an avid listener
Y'all are 100% like not touchingthe Tesla unless you're going
somewhere.
I'm not 100%, but I make surethat when I do my taxes I'm
honest.
I'm not a hundred percent, butI make sure that when I do my
taxes I'm honest.
You know I'm not going to writeoff a hundred percent.
I will say for personal use, itwas used 20, 30% of the time,
whatever, and subtract thatamount.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
I still think it's the smarter way to do it right,
which is let your business pay acertain part of your car
because you need to use it.
These are the things that I justthink like we don't get those
lessons.
When we're younger, right, andwe learned through the School of
Hard Knocks.
You may find out 10 years, in15 years, from one of your
partners in the surgeons and Iwas like, but you was doing what
all along?
Why did you tell me, right, soyou found out pretty early in

(06:52):
your career and I really applaudyou for that, because that's
really smart and like the reasonwhy I started off there is
because, like this episode isabout really the financial
implications of going to medicalschool or even any type of
health professional school, andwhat that means for you while
you're training, after you'retraining and then while you're

(07:14):
working, because whether you'rein nursing school or you're in
medical school or you're inrespiratory therapy school, like
the cost of the cost ofadmission is like exponentially
on a yearly basis, getting worse.
And I'm just going to start offwith some stats.
Hold on a second.
Let me get some stats up inhere, because I'm a stat person.
If you look at the stats rightnow, medical school graduates

(07:36):
owe a medium average of $215,000in total educational debt.
So that's pre-medical debtincluded, right?
So that's college and medschool, right educational debt.
So that's pre-medical debtincluded, right.
So that's college and medschool right Now.
If you're talking about justdebt in general by itself,
people in medical school, if youdon't include medical school,
if you just include sorry, ifyou don't include undergrad,

(08:06):
it's $200,000 of just debt,right.
And then what we're finding outfrom these stats is that that
debt, that financial burden, isactually playing into what
medical students decide to do interms of where they're going to
practice, like if they're goingto go to a rural neighborhood
or if they want to go practicein an inner city right, like me
I was.
I grew up in Irvington, newark,inner city areas and I made the
tough decision that when Ifinished training, I can't go
back there because I can'tafford to live there and still

(08:28):
pay off loans.
So I went to a rural area whichwasn't in my plans.
It was a great experience, butfinances played a part, right.
It may even affect whatspecialty you go into, right, if
you're going to go into familymedicine versus a subspecialty
it's going to affect that.
It may affect how quickly youget married.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, and how quickly you have kids.
And definitely listening tothose numbers, A lot of the
people listening to this episoderight here right now.
A lot of people on the SNMAside heard those numbers and two
words popped in my head Lightwork, 215K.
That's it For undergrad and medschool combined Light work 215K.
That's it For undergrad and medschool combined Light work.

(09:07):
I mean, I'm just What'd yougraduate with?
Undergrad was 100 and medschool was 300K.
400 for you just alone.
Yeah, yeah, 215, light work.
That's back in the day.
So I know folks now are likereally feeling it.
So yeah, that's and if youthink about it to me, all right,
undergrad, and if you know myundergrad, I'm going to save my

(09:30):
undergrad because I sit on theboard.
I don't need y'all blowing themup on like the socials.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
I've known you since undergrad Everybody, just so
y'all know region two.
That's how we do.
I can't name the school.
You don't want me to name theschool right?

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Nah, nah, because I don't need y'all.
If y'all know me, you know theschool, you can Google it, you
can look me up, you can find iteasily.
But I need y'all to do somework.
I can't give y'all all theanswers to the text.
Expensive private schools.
Leave it to you, like that.
They annual medical educationconference, but 25 a k a year
for that school is great if youcan come out after that.

(10:06):
So that's why the 100 didn'tlike phase me.
Uh, and then med school again300 is light work.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
So let me.
Let me ask you a question,right?
Um so, going through college,what role did your parents play
in your in finances?
Like, did they?
Did they contribute, or werethey just kind of like you going
to college?
That's amazing.
I'll drop you off.
See you later, because that'swhat my mom Like you're not
going to sign here.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Mom and dad, no, no, my mom, full Nigerian immigrant.
Her role was let me get you tocollege, but we got to figure
out how to pay for it later.
So when the FAFSA came in, youknow I'm one of those immigrant
children.
Hey, mommy, how much you makethis year?
All right.
What'd you do this year?
How much you donate?
All right.
Hey, sign here.
Like, that was me, right, like.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
I did everything, so you do it for your parents.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Oh yeah, same here, oh yeah, and then when it came
out, like you know, the schoolhad to make you pay something
based on what you submitted.
And she was like this it can'tbe less.
I'm like my school said, so shedid have to pay something.
Right, you always have to paythat minimum, like maybe 2K a

(11:14):
year or 4K a year, and then theschool would fast for the rest
of it.
But, yeah, no, that was herinvolvement throughout the
entire thing.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
And then med school was so did what?
So obviously you tell yourparents yeah, or you tell your
mom I got into medical schoolmm-hmm what.
So when you're doing the wholething, it's it's like you don't
even mention the finances hereto your mom at that point, right
you're just like I'm going tomedical school and that's it no,
I mean, she told me that wasthe same conversation same
difference.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, you're going, you're going she had, and she
had no clue.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
She had no clue.
Is she in medicine at all orNurse, nurse, nurse.
She's a nurse, Okay, so shekind of knows that it's
expensive, but she doesn't knowthe exact finances and so forth.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
And I feel like no one knows, because lots of room
and board in there cost ofliving, things that the school
has to help you supplement.
Because you ain't got no jobyou can use a little Tony or
Albert, you can use a littleTommy thing in there if you want
to.
You ain't got no job.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Why are you talking to Alfred?
That's my job.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
I've always wanted to do that, Keep it moving.
But yeah, they have tosupplement those things.
So if you're like me in theWashington DC area, a little
heavier than if I did do medschool out in Idaho.
No shade to Idaho.
Y'all cost of living just low.
That's all.
That's all.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
And you went to medical school at the Howard
University.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
Amazing, amazing history.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
Amazing amazing history, amazing medical school
in Washington DC.
So you know the reason I askedthat question is very similar.
I did the FAFSA paperwork formy family.
My parents didn't reallyunderstand that stuff, right,
both my parents are blue collar.
My mother's a nursing assistant.
My dad was like in, he was inlike electronics, he would fix

(13:01):
like the big computer sortingmachines at banks, right, so you
know the check sorters.
So if they would break he wouldgo and be on call and fix those
machines and stuff, you know.
But I did the FAFSA paperwork,like you said, for my parents,
and then sign here and Igraduated from college with
$25,000 in debt.
So this is in 2000.
And I was like I thought thatwas the end of the world.

(13:23):
And then you know my parentswould contribute a little bit to
it.
But that was it right.
Because when you look at theFAFSA form you realize how
little or how much your parentsmake.
Right, and it's either.
It's a very soberingconversation, particularly when
you are, you know, at a very, ata private institution.
You find out like how much youknow your colleagues or your,

(13:44):
you know your coworkers or your,you know how much you're the
people in your school, how muchtheir parents are making, right.
And when I graduated, I waslike, oh man, like $25,000, a
lot, until I went to medicalschool just the same way.
I told my parents I'm going tomedical school.
There was no discussion aboutfinances.
They had no clue.
They didn't ask.

(14:07):
It's not like they didn't care,but I'm sure they were just
like, well, what are we going tocontribute?
We'll be there, we'll be therefor you, We'll help you get
there and all those differentthings.
But you know, and I remember,like taking out the first
semester or the first year, likeit was like almost 40 K, you
know, and it was just like ittook me four years to accumulate
$25,000.
And just like that, I justdoubled that, if not Right, and
that was crazy and I just Ididn't know the implications of

(14:29):
it.
I just knew that this is whatit takes to graduate, that's it.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, you know and I'll be, you go ahead.
And that's why when peoplealways ask me like, oh, when in
residency, if we ever get tothat portion, like, oh, slave
labor, you're getting, you'regetting, you don't get paid
enough, blah, blah, blah.
I remember when I got myresidency you know those annual,
how much you get paid.
I remember filling out thoseFAFSAs as a pre-med.
I remember telling myself I'mgoing to be paid more than my
mother in my first job annuallyand that's why I never

(14:57):
complained about my residencysalary.
I was like all right, we'regoing to make it work.
She made it work, me and mysister and her.
Can you say that again?

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Say that again Because I think sometimes people
don't understand, because thereis also a section on the
socioeconomics of medical school.
Yes, right, and the majority.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
This thing keeps you want to get Apple, there you go.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Apple, yeah, oh man.
But the socioeconomics guys Iwant y'all to hear that like
first-year residents, if youthink about how much money a
first-year resident makes incomparison to what an attending
makes, or even comparison towhat, yeah, just someone in
general public makes, it's notthat much.
And the fact that that there is, it makes more money than your

(15:41):
mother's annual salary.
That speaks to the socialeconomics Right of where you
come from and stuff.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yes, and when I qualified because I was a
resident, I definitelyunderstand the hard work it's
when you factor in the hours forhow much you get paid.
But if you just look at basesalary, off-rip for a year, I
was making about I think it waslike 5K my first year, more than
my mother did annually.
And you know your residencysalary goes up.
So by the end I think I waslike nearly 10K more than she

(16:09):
was annually and I was just likeyou know, yes, I'm putting in
70, 80 hour work weeks, yes, butI'm not going to complain about
it, because who am Icomplaining to?
The person making less than meannually?
So, yeah, you had to shift.
I shifted my mindset to.
This is where we are now.
You've already ascended to thatplace you were talking about to
make more than your, than yourmother.

(16:30):
Now you can continue to go upthat mountain.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
That's why I kind of push myself there.
I'm sure you did exit interviewsRight?
So like as, or how about this?
Even before exit interview,right, like you have to be like
thinking, ok, listen, like likeI'm accumulating a ton of debt,
did there was there any thoughtprocess of like I just want to
do maybe primary care or maybe Iwant to go into, I want to

(16:55):
subspecialize?
And if you did think that, didit have anything to do with your
debt or your, like youreconomic status growing up?
Tell me about that, thosedecisions to go into ER or your
economic status growing up.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
Tell me about that, those decisions to go into ER.
So you do have those exitinterviews where you know every
school, I think your fourth yearin med school they have to sit
you down.
I think even having anundergrad if you take federal
loans, you got to have an exitand you're like, hey, you owe
this much, don't default, please, this is your interest, you
know, this is how you pay, etcetera, et cetera.
When I chose ER and I tellpeople this, hand to God, every
time I had zero clue of theannual salary.

(17:26):
Zero, zero clue of the annualsalary.
All right, I chose ER.
One I wanted to be the Jack ofall trades, master of none.
I love that aspect.
Two, I swear it, you can askanyone.
Two, it is the only specialtythat I know where I can see 100%

(17:48):
of the patients who come to meand not ask them directly to
their face how much money yougot on you.
You know what I'm saying, so Inever have to do that and that
was my thing.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
That's the reason why you went into it.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
That was me, and then number three, the show was dope
.
Hey, you can go look at everypersonal statement.
The show was dope.
Hey, you can go look at everypersonal statement.
Like in my life, the only timemy family never got stopped by
the little lady at the.
Excuse me, miss Angel, for alittle how much money you got
today your co-pays.
The ER is the only place whereit's like all right, thank you
for coming in.

(18:22):
You know your bill will be sentto you and you can get full care
.
Even yesterday I saw a man.
You know all he needed.
He told me straight up, tryingto get to Wisconsin.
It's cold outside, all right,you know how much I charged him.
I don't know.
Here's your turkey sandwich.
Sit here.
You're medically checked out.
You're good to go.
So when I found out what thesalary was, I definitely was
like dope.
But to me going into medicine,I assumed which is a bad

(18:43):
assumption, y'all, because Iknow now different every doc at
minimum made 100K at minimum.
I thought that was the floor.
Going into medicine was 100K.
So I knew where my loans wereand I kind of told myself all
right, if I live like a resident, 10 years should be paid off or
five years be paid off.
I did terrible math, notfactoring other things, but I

(19:03):
assumed it would be paid off.
I have never met a doctor 20years into their job, regardless
of specialty, say.
Man, these loans are stillkicking my butt.
So I knew it was going to bepaid off.
So I just chose specialty Iwanted to do and not the one
that was going to get paid offthe fastest.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
Fair enough.
And when I was saying cap, youknow I'm just teasing you and
everything.
Oh yeah yeah, yeah, you know.
Do you think that's adisadvantage though, for people
like particularly, you know,students who may come from a
similar background, where,immediately as soon as you
graduate from medical school,you're making more than your
family members?
Right?
And that's like, for example,like me, when I first started at
Morehouse, I was making what myfirst year was like thirty nine

(19:44):
thousand dollars a year.
You know, I was literally atwhat my dad was making, maybe a
little bit higher, and stufflike that.
And you know, it was just, Iwas fine, but I also knew that I
was ducking calls from SallyMay, like they were calling me
like yo, you know your graceperiod is up, right, like, and
you know, we know you got thecoupon book.

(20:04):
We haven't gotten any of thecoupon pages back when you
paying, and I'm like yo, I can'tafford to pay this right now,
so I'm gonna call you back right.
And you just keep doing it overand over and over again.
Do you think that kind of goinginto medical school or going to

(20:25):
health professional schools isjust kind of like listen, I got
the grit, I got thedetermination and this is what
I've always wanted to do, Nevermind what the financials of what
this is going to be?
Do you think that you shouldstill have that type of mindset
which is like, don't worry aboutthe money, It'll take care of
itself, you just try to get inand you graduate and you'll be
all right?
Do you think that's the wisechoice to do?

Speaker 1 (20:46):
I think it's the lifelong choice to do.
If you, at the end of your day,want to be happy with the
specialty you're in, how muchyou're making in the life you're
living, I think that's thedecision you have to make,
because you may make a decisionthat will make you not happy in
the long run and I know there'ssomeone out there listening like
I hate when you're all positiveabout things, man.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
Keep going, though.
Move on.
I know there's someone outthere listening like You're
getting all nice and stuff Ihate when you write Go on.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
Look, I'm just saying Someone out there is going to
be like man, I don't care, aslong as get that 400K.
And I'll tell you right nowthis is not cap.
I don't care what yourspecialty is, we're not calling

(21:34):
all these five figures, sixfigures, specialties.
At three o'clock in the morningthey don't still sound happy
anymore.
So I'm just saying it doesn'tmatter.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Trying to get a hand surgeon in to come in for a hand
injury at two o'clock in themorning.
It's like that's pulling teeth.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
I've had tips of fingers hanging off.
You know they say just sew thatup and wrap it up, send it to
the office.
I'm like it's hanging, hecannot extend it.
You know what you said.
So you got a hand, you got it.
Document.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
Hand surgeon told me to do da, da, da, da, da, da da.
Yeah, yes, Y'all know who youare.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Y'all know who you are.
You need to get up and be happyand you know I've talked to
every specialty at three o'clockin the morning because I need
you for something and it's rarethat that person is happy every
single time I call them and youknow it may just be call Right,
but do something that's going tofulfill you.
That's gonna make you smile,that you can write a book about
that.
You could be on a podcast onafter you were up 12 hours

(22:25):
afterwards to talk about itbecause you're so happy.
That's what you should do.
I have this joke.
I tell all my mentees and I'mgoing to ask you the same
question Amy or Dr Ne, when areyou going to pay your light bill
off?
At the end of the month?
No, no, no, no, no.

(22:47):
When is your light bill goingto be zero and you're not going
to owe any more on your lightbill?
When is it going to be zero?
It never is basically Exactlythat's how.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
I treated student loans.
Hey man, it's bill of credit, Ipay it, I put it away.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
Like some people, like you know calendars, five
more years, three more years,anxious.
But if you think about it aslike do you have enough to pay
it?
Yes, can you pay it?
Yes, did you pay it?
Yes, that's it.
At some point it will disappear, it will dwindle down, it will
go away.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
You know, we do pay so many bills in our life every
month and I'm thinking twice andI'll pay for the rest of my
life like so your girl, yourfamily's goal, cuz your wife is
also a doctor, y'all make surehe understand that his wife is
also a doctor, yo.
So y'all got debt right?
We do.
The goal is not to get it paidoff Like you don't have like a
timeline in terms of trying topay it off early.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
So we had an estimate but we didn't aim for early.
So we sat down and we're likeall right, my wife's a doctor
too, but she had the BSMD atHoward's.
Look up that program.
Two years of undergrad, fouryears in med school.
So her first two years of medschool was undergrad rate right,
so hers was lower.
So we basically said, all right, boom, yours paid off.
Let's try it in five yearsbecause it was way lower.

(23:55):
If we can aim mine for 10 yearspost-attendingship, right.
I think everyone should knowthat.
I don't think you should becounting your years of residency
as paying off your loans.
That's minimum.
Don't let Sally Mae come findyou or make phone calls,
payments.
They come Post attending ship.
Yeah, they come 10 years post.
That was it and it was likethat's when we think we should

(24:17):
do it.
We weren't rushing.
10 years seemed appropriate.
We did the calculations, that'sfact and we're on track.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
That's the standard plan, right?
Yeah, oh, no.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
We did income-based, income-based.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
You ain't say all that.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
All right, good, okay , but don't they change it based
off of your?
Combined income now yes, and sowhen the income skyrocketed,
let's just say my currentpayment has multiple more than
my residency payment, multiplemore than my residency payment.
However, remember y'all, yourincome base is based off your
income, not your business incomeor the dividends you get from

(24:50):
your business.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
So it Iris, come get this guy, come get this guy
right now.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
I see, I see, but we inflated it.
So I think we're going to bedone at eight years now, because
10 years post resident uh,intern, uh, attending we 2025.
And I think I're going to bedone in eight years now because
10 years post resident attendingwe 2025.
And I think I'm going to end in24.
So we did it right on time.
I do pay way over what theywant to pay, because they will
hand you 20 and 30 year planseveryone, because they need that
interest payment.
That's yo.

(25:19):
Let me tell you something rightnow.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
So when me and Renee got married, we combined our
finances almost $700,000 in debt.
They both have each each of uson the 20-year plan.
So we went into a calculatorand we put in all our debt and
we had similar interest ratesand everything yo.
By the time 20 years was donewe would have been at like 1.2
million dollars of principal andinterest and watch them.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Watch them.
You know what they did to meBecause I'll be paid off by,
hopefully, june next year.
Why did my minimum paymentamount drop suddenly, like it
was auto-drafted.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
They try to entice you Like.
We know you want that lucidCould just drop that payment a
little bit long.
We'll extend you out to 2057.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
I was like I see y'all, I am not.
This amount is locked in theAnani finances.
I'm not decreasing this amount.
It's going to be knocked outbut like they want that interest
, that's how they make money.
Capitalism, I love it.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
All right, y'all, this is Dr Ne.
I've been doing locum tenantstrauma surgery for well over 10
years and I haven't looked backsince Best combination of
lifestyle and income that Icould ask for.
Now, for you, your needs, yourwants, that's gonna be different
than mine.
Maybe you want more controlover when you work or even how
much you work, or, look, you'rejust trying to make more money

(26:36):
to pay off those damn studentloans.
Now the other thing is payattention.
The average locum's doc getspaid at least 33% more than your
average employed doc.
You got your attention now solook, I get it.
Sometimes the hardest part iswhere do I start?
You start your research atlocumstorycom.
Once again.
That's locumstorycom.

(26:56):
It's an unbiased educationalresource about locum tenants.
There you're going to findstories about the different
reasons why doctors chooselocums and how it works for them
.
Locumstorycom has tools thatlet you explore locum's pay
demand for your specialty andeven compare different locum
tenants agencies.
So, look, stop sitting on afence or just thinking about it.

(27:20):
Start doing on the fence orjust thinking about it.
Start doing.
Do your own research atlocumstorycom.
Once again, that'slocumstorycom.
It's easy.
So I think you definitely havea different perspective on
things because it looks like youknew the money was going to be
there.
But for you the goal was I wantto be a doctor.
I'm going to be a doctorFinancial wise because, like I

(27:42):
think there's something to besaid for if you gonna be a
doctor financial wise because,like I think there's something
to be said for if you didn'tspend that that much, if you
didn't spend a lot of moneygrowing up, or if you didn't
spend a lot of money while youwere trying to get into medical
school.
Usually when you jump into newmoney, it's not that big of an
issue afterwards, right?
that's kind of like me and Renee, like we didn't spend much
money.
So now that we got a lot ofmoney, budgeting is actually
easy for us because we don'treally spend money at all.

(28:04):
So you but for you, you look atit as the money will take care
of the loans eventually yeah,not stress about it.
Whereas for me, I think therewas like a very visceral pain
point, which was I don't want tolive in royal rule america.
I want to be close to my family, um, and I feel like it's in cr
.
It's impinging on the way how Iwanted to live.
So I just knew that that wasthe pain point.

(28:25):
I needed to pay that off.
For the folks that are listeningright now, you're starting to
see more tweets.
You're starting to see peopleon social media talk about like
yeah, I'm getting towards theend of my fourth year of medical
school and I didn't realize theimplications of what I got into
.
I may have some regret, but I'mstill going to keep moving

(28:47):
forward.
Or you have some people who arein residency and they're like
yo why don't they just increaseour pay?
They got the money to do it.
Why don't they increase our pay?
To those who say things likethat it can't just be like yo,
don't worry about that, justgraduate.
What are your thoughts on thecurrent situation where, like,
literally, there's a study thatsays that next year the average
we're at 240 or 250 for averagestudent loan debt which is

(29:07):
graduating, medical school andundergrad, but they're saying
it's going to jump to $300,000in a year.
What are your thoughts on that?
Because you had a lot ofstudent loan debt, but during
that time the average was a lotlower.
Same thing with me.
I had a lot of student loandebt, but during that time the
average was a lot lower.
Same thing with me.
I had a lot of student loandebt.
I borrowed way more than whatthe average was, just because of
the socioeconomic type stuff.

(29:28):
What do you say for people likethat, who are just like yo,
like bing, bing, bing.
It's a problem for me.
I'm thinking about it, I'mthinking about it.
What do you say for them?

Speaker 1 (29:36):
You're right to.
You should think about it.
But I guarantee you every notguarantee my thought process and
why I didn't think about it toomuch is every answer you have
is going to move the needle onsomething else, right?
So let's use what you just said.
Right, we were talking aboutour salaries in residency.
You said your salary I'm justusing numbers you've already

(29:58):
thrown out there is about$39,000.
Right, my salary in residencywas 48,000.
So I'm already 9K ahead of you,right?
So someone would say, hey, look, we increased the salaries of
residency 9K in what five, 10years?
I'm like okay, but what happensto the cost of living?
That also went up.
So I guarantee you, like ourcost, they're going to keep
moving the needle.

(30:18):
But when they move that needleof like like all right, we're
paying you more as a residenteverything else in society will
probably go up.
So then that person's probablysaying, well, why not match?
Or why not match?
I think it's possible.
You know a lot of the residentsyou've been talking on this
podcast as well.
Uh, unionizing out here.
Uh, someone on the west coastdid it with britain, britain or

(30:38):
uk residents did it.
Yeah, so it's possible.
That can get us more, but youalways have to.
I'm the type of person thatbelieves your salary must always
depend on where you want on thetotem, right.
So, all right, there is someoneattending out there who's at
100K right now.
Right, they're in familymedicine or P's or something,
because they are the salt of theearth and they're going to have
their wings immediately.

(30:59):
Right, they're at 100K rightnow.
A resident can't pass that, sothat has to be our ceiling,
right.
So what is that?
80, 70, 60?
I mean, some residencies outthere are already paying 70.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
We had Steven Bradley on.
He was saying as a fellow hewas at 77.
I was like what?
That's what I'm saying.
I didn't even know that.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
So there has to be a ceiling and it has to be under
100K.
So can it move up?
Yes.
Can it pay people more?
Yes, I was always in the campof my pay good, because, again,
I was thinking about what mymama made my pay is good.
Make me work less.
I was never in the camp of youshould be in the hospital 20
hours a day each day and onlyhave one day off, and then on

(31:43):
your day off you should bereading.
I never understood that,because I feel like you get more
learning as you do.
So tell me enough to not harmpeople, and I will continue to
learn for the rest of my life.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
So trust the people, trust the lessons that you teach
people and they will becomelifelong learners, as opposed to
forcing them.
Basically.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yes and right and like, especially for like y'all
surgeons, if you're not in thehospital, how many, you're not
going to get your number ofappies.
Like I talked to all thesementees who are in the surgical
specialties counting cases oh, Ineed a couple more C-sections,
I need a couple more of this.
And it's like, like, what isthat?
Is that number found insomething I know thousand times?
You're a expert or whatever.
Yeah 10,000 hours or somethinglike that.

(32:22):
Yeah, and I get that, but youonly need 10,000 hours of
residency.
You know what I'm saying?
That's what like.
So instead of chasing the pay,I say let's chase the hours.
That's where I am on theresidency lifestyle.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
Here's my fear and we're going to get into why is
medical school this expensive?
Which is where you understandthat better than me.
But I just want to know, likewhy is medical school so
expensive?
Why is medical school expenseexponentially getting better?
If we notice statistics showthat the majority of people who
are in medical school come fromyou know well-to-do families and
so forth, when we continue tomake the price of medical school

(32:54):
really high, it's going tocontinue to be a barrier for
people who one can't afford itand have to take out more loans.
They're going to getintimidated by that.
But then also, at the same time, not only are those people who
might be able to get through andthey will get through it's
still going to be a majorsituation once they actually
become attendings, because nowyou've taken someone out of a
certain socioeconomic status.

(33:14):
We know.
You know what I'm talking about, right.
But, then when you become thebeacon of light, light, the
Statue of Liberty for yourfamily and now, not only are you
, do you have to support mom anddad and possibly even family
members it's like okay ifsalaries aren't keeping up with
the exponential rate of howmedical school is going.
It's like okay.
So before I was poor, now I'mreally poor and now I'm starting

(33:36):
to make money, but it's notkeeping up with what my student
loans are like.
What are we really creating?
Like, are we kind of forcingpeople who don't make money to
be like sit down and you staythere and this is gonna can be,
this is gonna continue to be alifestyle or an educational path
for those who have the moneyand are willing to spend it and
sacrifice?
That's my fear, right, it'slike you look at people who are

(33:57):
gonna have to do a lot ofsacrifice to get up to this
point.
Say, now you sit down, becausenow it's gonna be worth four
hundred thousand and we knowdamn sure you're not going to be
able to pay for that.
What you're going to do then.
That's my fear.

Speaker 1 (34:08):
I think your fear is right, but I think that's what
society wants.
I think one when it comes toeducation-.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Well, that's what United States wants, because in
other countries it's subsidized.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yes, but then the whole system is subsidized.
Yes, but then the whole systemis subsidized, right.
So whenever people hit me withthe other country subsidized,
I'm like you're darn right, thewhole healthcare system is
subsidized.
But I'll guarantee you rightnow, all you orthopods out here
and in the US are not makingorthopod money in the UK, right,
right, right.
Because healthcare issubsidized when your government
controls the money.

(34:39):
And first off, let me just saythis out here, if anyone can
attack me, I'm not pro thesethings.
I just like pointing out thesethings to people, right?

Speaker 2 (34:46):
Dr Love, you're going to have to take a stance and
you're going to have to live init.
This is what this show is about.
Stop trying to play both sides.
Thank you, let's move on.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
I will throw my stance at the end, but I'm going
to throw this out there.
General has to be, there has tobe a barrier, because to be a
barrier if there was no barrier,everyone would do it.
That's one thing all the peoplewho control the education knobs
understand, right, that's notShouldn't it be that way?

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Because I actually kind of think everybody it
should be easy to get intomedical school but hard to get
out.
But that's another conversation.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Oh see, but so oh.
So y'all heard that want togive y'all the debt he wants.
But I think they want there hasto be a barrier, because when
there is no barrier things don'tlook as good and our society is
like that.
I'm not sure you know, peoplecan blame the internet whatever
they want, but when you walk ona plane and you walk through
first class, it's like what?
12 seats in first class,sometimes maybe 16, right,

(35:41):
they've already buried thenumber of people that can get in
that immediately off-rep.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Exclusivity.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Exclusivity, right.
If everyone could go to medschool, everyone would go to med
school, right?
So they have to have thatbarrier.
There's the MCAT versus prereqs.
Then there's the MCAT, thenthere's cost right, they're
going to put that in there.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
But why does the cost have to exponentially increase?
The body ain't mutating Like Idon't understand, Society is.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
Society is all right, you know I'm not going to say
the brand name of what I'mdrinking right here, because
they don't sponsor y'all.
But this is cheaper, is moreexpensive than it used to be.
Right, you and I corner storeand I want to store four bags of
chips a dollar and a quarterwater.
Right, it's a dollar a bag.
Now for the one like cost goesup.

(36:28):
So then they keep moving thingsevery single time.
If you look at your undergradright now and I've worked with
undergrads, right, I said thatearlier every year you got to
sit and adjust your tuition tomove up because there's a slider
between who's gonna pay it, howare they gonna pay it and how
are they gonna look at us whenthey pay it.

(36:48):
Right, everybody out thereright now, you know, with your
scrubs or backpack or shoes orcar, you know the price tag of
those things and if the valuewas lower you may not be as
interested.
It'd be the exact same productyou can look up.
Um, I think payless did thisbefore they went out of business
.
Rip, uh, they madea shoe storeand they called it like pele,

(37:12):
like they changed the name on it, but all the shoes inside were
still payless shoes and theylike changed the price tag.
People are coming on theseshoes are awesome.
They're amazing.
Blah blah.
They were all Payless shoes andthey exposed it to everyone.
They're like oh, you're kidding.
Blah, blah, blah, but Paylessis gone now.
But Nike's still out herecollecting all them checks on
sneakers.
I still can't get on thesneaker app.
I'm buying off of whateverStockX for 200%, because when

(37:38):
you bought my fake shoes.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
I need that.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Shout out to all people who rocking the Grinches
out there.
I tried to get the reverseGrinches on Christmas.
It didn't work.
It didn't work.
But when you attach a cost tosomething, it looks better to
everybody else.
And I think people still attachthat cost to medical school.
So that's why these medicalschools continue to adjust the
cost as they're moving forward.
So, yes, the body's not mutating, but society is Inter forward.

(38:02):
So, yes, the body's notmutating, but society is.
Interest rates are.
They're going to continue to goup and that's what's sliding.
Everyone and students arealready doing it.
The numbers show primary careis dropping and I think, if we
want to get that number up,student loan forgiveness ain't
it, because, again, student loanforgiveness is finite.
That is, oh yeah, I'll give you$300K right now.
Boom.
You don't earn it for the restof your life.
If you want to keep peoplegoing, the cost of primary care

(38:25):
has to go up.
But the problem there is mostof their funding comes from
government, because kids allhave insurance.
They all have state insurance.
These wellness visits don't payas much as a post-op visit.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
And when we start to adjust that, then I think we'll
start getting more primary caredoctors.
For the most part, when youreally do an investigation and
you go through the red tape andall of that stuff, rarely is
that stuff equating to anincrease in pay for professors
or an improvement in theeducation, like an improvement
in like facilities specificallyfor education.

(39:15):
But a lot of times it goes intoimproving, maybe, the gymnasium
, improving, you know, thesleeping facilities, the
dormitories, or making a reallynice cafeteria.
Because what we're seeing nowis that there's a steady state
in terms of the competitionbetween colleges and there's
only so much you can say well,professor A is going to be able

(39:37):
to recruit people to know schoolA and professor B.
It's really about, well, hownice do you really want it in
college?
Right, and that is ultimatelybecoming the.
That's ultimately becoming the.
You know the deciding factorswhat kind of amenities do you
have?
And in medical school it's like,yeah, like I get it, like I

(40:00):
know I got to go through this.
I know I got to walk throughthe desert and I got to have
cups of water in my hands.
I got to go through this.
Yes, sir, may I have more?
Yes, ma'am, can I have morelike that?
But like damn, like, doestuition really have to
exponentially increase on ayearly basis just to prove that
I want to be a doctor and I getit?
We're never going to answerthat question, but I got your
point, but that's just.

(40:20):
That's just my mindset, whichis like this is crazy, but like
let's, let's, let's get to thego ahead, go ahead what you want
to say when it comes totuitions, you are correct.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
Professors who are on staff on, often just like
everybody else, has a contract,so it doesn't go up yearly.
But the new professor gettingrecruited usually has an
increased base.
So and then that, then thatdoctor, that professor was there
before, or a doctor or teachercomes back in a couple of years
and asks for more money.
So salary for any school is thenumber one driver of tuition.
Every professor may not get aincrease in pay because the

(40:52):
tuition went up, but it is thenumber one driver Inside
knowledge.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
All right, what's the Student National Medical
Association doing about this,like, what are some initiatives
that they have?
And then also, you saidpre-medical board member or,
sorry, professional board memberto the EC.
What does that mean?
What does that do?
And then tell us what SNMA isdoing about this, the financial
issues that are facing thestudents.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
So I'll start with the second one Professional
professional board member to theEC.
The SNMA wisely, on theirnational board of directors,
have four professional boardmembers because they need
someone in the room to say,uh-uh, don't do that.
Because they need us to kind ofsay, hey, look, on the far end
spectrum, this is how things aredone in the medical field.
Or we were sitting in yourchairs and this is the mistakes

(41:42):
we made.
Here's how we're going to guideyou, here's how we're going to
help you.
One of those board members alsosits on the executive committee
, which is basically in functionmonthly, whereas the board
meets quarterly.
So I have to go to the monthlymeetings and again be that same
professional board member in theroom and say, yeah, do that,
don't do that.
That's a smart idea, great idea.

(42:08):
Or let me think about that, orlet me bring you guys some
resources that you may not haveon this.
So, the professional boardmembers of the EC I'm up there
with the chair, the presidentmonthly, and the executive
director and the whole executivecommittee staff.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
So just to be clear, so everybody understands this
SNMA is run by students, so it'srun by medical students, Like
they are actually studying forboards while they're running
this organization and then you,as an alumni of medical school,
as an alumni, more than likely,of the student medical
association, you sit on theboard and you make sure that

(42:36):
these students don't do crazystuff and run amok.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Basically, we are there to be the wise sages in
the room.
I'm supposed to be their Yoda.
I'm supposed to be their.
You know, anakin, I'm notAnakin, you went crazy.
I'm supposed to be their Yoda.
I'm supposed to be theirObi-Wan.
I'm supposed to be thereguiding them.
So that's what we're out theredoing on a monthly basis on the
EC quarterly for my othercolleagues, but you on the EC

(43:00):
quarterly for my othercolleagues, but you still work
with students on the whole boardas a whole.
So SMA as a whole.
Student National MedicalAssociation understands these
costs of livings and everythingelse.
Right now I feel like a lot ofwhat they're doing is pushing
the policy, because they knowthe numbers is driven by so many
knobs, it's a lot harder.
So the National MedicalAssociation does have their HPLA

(43:21):
Health Policy and LegislativeAdvocacy Committee.
We're out there on the Hill,they're going to the Capitol,
they're talking about thesethings all the time.
They make they write letters,we publish them, we meet with
people and we also haverelationships with certain
businesses and medical schools,right.

(43:42):
So SNMA partners withAstraZeneca.
We have grants from them, wetalk with them, we send them
what we do as an organizationand they help do some of our
funding, right, you know tit fortat.
We're here, we're together nowBig business nonprofit
organization let's change theworld.
Snma has their president sit onthe NMA, which is the National

(44:03):
Medical Association.
They're part of their board.
It's like a student member,right.
So now they're on a biggerplatform, bigger advocacy, going
out there, working directlywith physicians in those roles
to do different things and, ofcourse, we have several
relationships with med schoolsaround the countries.
I like to believe that thepartnership SNMA has with a lot
of the institutions hassponsored a lot of things to

(44:25):
help with that debt that we talkabout so much, right, okay?

Speaker 2 (44:28):
give me an example.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Pipeline program like pipeline programs right SNMA,
right now with the AmericanBoard of Emergency Medicine,
abim.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
There is a scholarship out there right now,
In terms of you just need to bea spokesperson, that's your
thing be a spokesperson for yourprivate college and be a
spokesperson for damn, keepgoing.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
I'm just saying I know where the plugs are.
The American Board of EmergencyMedicine is helping with a
diversity scholarship for thosewho want to go into emergency
medicine.
Let's lower that cost, let'slower that barrier of entry.
So ABIM sent SNMA like a bunchof stuff for this scholarship
they're having.
They said help us publish this,help us do this, let's partner
together.
Boom, we're going to take that.
Put it to our student interestgroup, send that out there, make

(45:10):
sure people know that thesethings exist.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
And I feel like the cost of applications in
residency for, like ER or forany specialties.
A lot of money we're talkinglike $5,000 to apply for these
residencies at least.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
And it's flat for everybody.
But because for the morecompetitive ones which hopefully
ER is this year my chest hurtsalready thinking about it For
the more competitive ones,people are increasing the number
of applications.
There's someone on the boardright now who is applying to a
specific skin related specialty,talking about dropping 80 apps.

(45:44):
You know, and it just goes up.
But that's what you have to do.
I know no one applying to ortho, applying less than 20 programs
.
You know like that's like thebase, so you have to have your
money up for all these thingsand they don't want no one wants
these bears of entry anymore.
A lot of our student nationalmedical association chapters

(46:04):
again work with other residencyprograms.
They have interest groupmeetings, they have Zoom
meetings.
We have all these diversityinitiatives now at these
organizations and I like to feellike S&M is a little kindling
fire to keep those things going.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yeah, I think it's really important to let people
know that there's some activework on Student National Medical
Association to at least dotheir part in making sure that
you can defray the cost, whetherthat's getting into residency
or defray the cost Maybe we'retrying to get into like doing a
sub I that may be subsidized,like any bit counts, bit counts.

(46:44):
And I think, from myperspective, I always look at
SNMA in terms of the social kindof bailout that I needed, right
, because a lot of times youfeel like you're on an island at
your medical school or you mayfeel like you're in a silo and
it's great to kind of come backand meet with like-minded people
who come from maybe similarbackgrounds, who maybe have
similar struggles, who can giveyou great similar ideas on how
to kind of make it your waythrough financially, socially or
even just career-wise.

(47:04):
I think that's really for methe key thing as to why we're
giving back, at least from myperspective.
Now, renee, obviously as achairperson emeritus, obviously
you know SNMA means that muchmore to her because you know she
is, that's in her blood, it'sin my blood, but it's really in
her blood and stuff.
So that's in her blood, it's inmy blood, but it's really in

(47:27):
her blood and stuff.
So that's really important.
I want people listening toreally understand that there's
some work being done by SNMA toreally help students get through
this process with as littledebt as possible, and I think
that's ultimately.
My message to people is that,listen, when I did it, I
remember when I looked at myapplication I'll end it like
this when I looked at myapplication to apply for
financial aid my first year,there's a space there that says

(47:49):
that you know this is evenbefore that there's like a
schedule that says OK, you knowyou're going to need this much
for books and it'll give youlike an approximate.
You'll need this much for.
You know supplies, you'll needthis much for an apartment in
Kansas City.
You, you know supplies, you'llneed this much for an apartment
in Kansas City.
You may didn't need this muchfor transportation and it'll.
It will give you like the totalamount that you need, right.
And then underneath it it sayshow much do you want to ask for?

(48:11):
And it's blank and it literallysaid you could put in like zero
up to whatever you want and Iput in maximum.
Right, that's what I wrote.
I'd even write at a dollaramount.
I wrote maximum, give meeverything.
Right, even though I was livingin a place where I was paying
270 bucks a month for a rent.
Um, you know, I had a used carand I was paying my dad back in

(48:32):
the loans and stuff like.
I was able to keep my financeslow.
But I just always had themindset of I don't want to have
to ask my parents for anything.
Right, like I told my parents Iwas going to become a doctor
and, god damn it, I'm going tobe a doctor and I'm never going
to ask them for anything.
Not because they would throw itin my face, but if I knew if I
asked them for something, theywould worry, and I didn't want
them to worry.
I wanted them to know that Niihad this.

(48:53):
But in response to that, Iended up taking way more debt
than I should have.
Right, I graduated 2006 with$240,000, which is way ahead
than what the average medicalstudent at that time is taking
similar to you.
Right, like you are way aheadthan what the average medical
student should be taking in2015,.
Right, but it just so happenslike we come from backgrounds

(49:16):
where we're just like look, Iain't asking my parents for
nothing because they ain't gotnothing.
I don't want them to worry andI'm going to figure this out,
and I sometimes want to craft amessage for them to let people
know like, listen, try todecrease the amount of debt that
you're taking out maximum on ayearly basis.
Try to decrease that, and justalso know that you're going to
make enough, like you said afterresidency.

(49:37):
You're going to make enough topay it back.
The question is is how fast doyou want to pay it back?
The question is is where do youwant to be in your career?
And how much is debt?
How much is how much you makefinancial implications?
How much is that going to playinto your career trajectory?
And that's all I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
You know there's there's a Nigerian slang out
there I'll call it African slangout there right now that I
think I applied in med schoolwhen I was filling out that same
application and I think, eventhough I know better now, I
probably would still apply itnow.
I can't come and kill myself,which means I wasn't made for

(50:18):
this life to suffer, you knowlike you guys hear that accent
coming out, yeah, that maximumout.
Would I have owed Sally Mae$20,000 less if I didn't take it
For sure?
But would it have changed agranular thing on the trajectory

(50:40):
of residency to where I am nowas an attending Again, I'd have
$20,000 more that I would havepaid somebody else.
I feel like right.
So you know I come in to thestudents a lot.
You know don't go out there andbuy a bottle every weekend
after a test.
You know that's crazy.
But if after one semester youneed a little extra cash to just

(51:06):
sit down with the friends andtoast, I mean enjoy life.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
It's shorts, guys, remember he's Nigerian, so just
remember that he Nigerian.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
You take an advice from a Nigerian, okay which
people have you never seenstruggle for money?

Speaker 2 (51:27):
guys check.
The question is guys check yourYahoo emails, your junk mail.
Okay, there's a reason why,exactly, prince love, exactly, I
can't kill myself.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
I'll go and take it from you before I kill myself.
So, yes, should you writemaximum?
No, probably not.
Don't write maximum.
But should you write zero Hell?
No, I get it.
Write zero Hell, no, like youknow.
Like you, I get it.
Yeah, halfway.
Just sit and tabulate your life.
You know we all play thatlittle game house or a little

(52:01):
thing where you move andeverything and you've already
planned when you want to havekids, what type of house you
want to live in, what city youwant to live in.
You can Google the average forall those things right now and
determine how much you're goingto need to make and whatever,
whatever, and your loans aregoing to be there.
When people do a credit check,they separate your education
based loans from your car loan,your unpaid city circuit, city

(52:26):
credit card.
You know a lot of people don'tknow it's like a city out there.
They can separate that debt andyou know, even when we talk to
people in finances, there's gooddebt and there's bad debt.
Education has never beenconsidered bad debt and they
always know you're going to getit all Look, hey, now, if you
don't finish, you've killedyourself.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
You better start picking up sneaker collection
and start selling sneakers,selling fake sneakers to Dr Love
, because you'll buy it.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
I check my stuff.
I need the certification.
But if you don't finish, youknow, should you open up that
Yahoo email and start emailingpeople?
You might have to consider it.
But you have to know whatyou're getting into and so if
you don't finish it, you need tofind a job that's going to
supplement those minimumpayments.
That's why income-based exists,so you can kind of like live
through it.
But just know, when you doincome-based you're usually

(53:18):
stretching it a little longerbecause they want all of that
interest.
So choose an amount that youcan live off of that you'll be
happy with that.
Maybe one New Year's you cansay hey guys, we're going to
Colorado, you know somethinglike that and enjoy life.
Or maybe you decide you want tocome to the 60th annual medical

(53:39):
education conference for snma Iwas wondering when you're going
to segue into that man.
You're leaving them out in thecold I'm supposed to come into
it in new orleans easter weekend.
Right, maybe you want to use acouple of your loan dollars on
that meter to come down thereget your battery Reach or your
office of diversity affairsshould be paying for this
already.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
They should have what do you call earmarked money for
this they should have.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
You know, certain states right now will not let
and I will not name, may nothave those offices no more.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Get downloaded in Texas.
Hey Apple, you know you need todo something.
Make sure that people in Texascan download this podcast.
Yo Damn, bypass the diversityfilters.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Shout out to people who listen to me, like on Google
.
Apparently, google podcast isgoing away.
We have to use YouTube musiccome April.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
I'll switch.
It's better, though it's better, it's better, I'll switch.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
But like, yeah, earmark that, calm down, enjoy
we.
But like, yeah, earmark that,come down, enjoy.
We.
Started off talking about evs.
This is where you get yourbattery recharged.
Every conference I would.
I would go there and be likeI'm ready for the year, like I'd
be hyped up, I'd be studyingagain, I'd be pushing myself,
you'd ready to run through awall when you leave amec and for
all those old heads who arelistening, attendings who are

(54:49):
like, oh, I don't go to amec, nomore, I don't have the hours,
my battery's full, you'remissing out or you can help.
We do a lot of talking aboutmoney.
A lot of y'all have a littleextra pocket change $5, $10 a
year.
Sma is trying to do a campaign600 for the 60th, 600k for 60
years.
Price just went up y'all.
You can donate.

(55:13):
You can go to snmaorg right now.
Leave a donation.
$5 helps I know it sounds cornyand you always listen to those
things.
$5 ain't going to help y'all at600K.
What if 600,000 people gave $5?
Boom, we're already there,right?
And we know how many peoplelisten to Docs Outside the Box
podcast.
We know how many people needthem.
Tax write-offs we know peopleknow the game.
Just do a little write-off tothe business Five $10.

(55:36):
I know people got more thanthat.
You're probably holding yourStarbucks coffee right now with
the extra espresso in it.
You can go one Lex Espressodonate to S&MA.
Boom.
Now you've done a good deed.
Now you can feel good aboutyourself.
Please help us.
Please help us.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
And there it is everyone.
This is the reason why,whatever event it is across the
United States, you want to havea Nigerian as the emcee for that
event, because they will getthat money out of you.
Yo, they can convince.
What did it say?
You can pinch what was it, youcan get water out of a turnip,
or something like that.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
Yeah, I can sell water to a whale.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, hey, well, these otherwells outdoing you right now.
Your reserve is low, don't youwant to be the top?
Well, the well that all themaidens and all the men come to.
First, get this extra waterright here.
Boom, there you go.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Boom.
Listen, guys, this is a messagefor everyone.
But this you know, I knowsometimes people will be like,
oh, this message is just forminority.
No, this is a message foreveryone.
This is important, right,because more than likely, the
studies show that that studentwho comes from minority
background is going to come intoa rural neighborhood and
practice with a rural populationor a suburban population.
I practice trauma surgery mainlyin rural neighborhoods and

(56:43):
stuff, right, and I'm the onlyAfrican-American doctor there
and stuff.
I don't have any qualms aboutthat at all.
I take care of them like theywere my family and so forth.
So it affects everybody in somany different ways and stuff.
So it's very important thateverybody take a listen to this.
It's very important that we alldecide that we're going to
support this organizationbecause it really does great
things and it's very inclusive.

(57:03):
I'll just leave it at that.
So listen, dr Love.
Where can people go to learnmore about the 60th anniversary
SMA, amac and maybe even get intouch with you?
Tell them all of that before weend the show, all right?

Speaker 1 (57:16):
So for the SMA tip, they're everywhere Twitter,
instagram.
Sma is the hashtag SMAunderscore official.
I believe All the informationis there.
If you're not on the socials,straight up internet SMAorg, go
on the website.
Go under conferences.
Amec is right there.
You can look to the right.
You'll see all the donations.
You'll see all the links.

(57:38):
We have business partnershipswith Delta for lower costs to
fly to New Orleans for all theDelta people who need the
medallions points and SkyMiles.
Now you know those went up too,so you can use that link if you
want to.
All the information's there.
If you want to get in contactwith me, I'm also on the socials
.
You can use the professionaltag first, t4d underscore.

(57:58):
Dr Donnie, I do work with Tourfor Diversity as well, and
that's kind of the IG I postmost of my information on.
You can also find me on TwitterEvil, which is just love
backwards underscore thoughts.
I don't post as much anymore.
Are we allowed to call itTwitter, is it?
X now you can find me there, butmy main goal between now and

(58:19):
Easter is hustle up AMEC.
Everything you're going to hearfrom me is going to have SMA
attached to it in some way,shape or form, so keep your eyes
open.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
And there it is, guys .
Dr Love Anani, professionalboard member to the executive
board with the Student NationalMedical Association, and here
we're talking about thefinancial implications of all of
this debt in medical school.
Listen, make sure you check theshow notes below You'll find
all the links to everything thatDr Love mentioned.
And also check out our previousepisode, where you'll find out
what me, or how much me and DrRenee are contributing to the

(58:50):
Student National MedicalAssociation.
This stuff is important foreverybody from every walk of
life to understand the cost ofmedical school and what it means
for people who are going tocome into your respective
neighborhoods.
Make sure you guys check thoseout.
We're going to catch you guyson the next episode of Docs
Outside the Box, y'all, peace,peace.