September 19, 2025 • 59 mins
SEND US A TEXT MESSAGE!!! Let Drs. Nii & Renee know what you think about the show!
In this episode, Renee & Nii discuss how the common forms of debt (student loans, consumer debt, mortgage) keep you stuck in the rat race and burnt out!
Things to expect in this episode:
- Renee clarifies how much she really owed the IRS
- The Top 10 Medical Schools that keep their students in the highest debts
- Why you should consider refinancing your loans
- Why the Darkos don’t co-sign loans for anyone
Resources listed:
Student Hero Medical School Repayment Guide
How long should a car loan be
10 Medical Schools where students leave with the most debt
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
three, two, one was good everyone.
I am dr knee.
I am joined by dr reneechristian alfred, go ahead and
give us some confetti.
Please, please, please, please,welcome everyone.
This is another episode of docsoutside the box, where we are
fusing money, medicine and popculture as well as no, I don
(00:25):
don't say as well as anymore.
I've stepped my game up, renee,don't try to trip me up New
host, new laptop, new microphone.
You know I'm not making thosemistakes anymore, but listen
everyone, welcome back.
Thank you very much forlistening.
Those who are listening to usthrough YouTube, those who,
sorry, those who are watching usthrough YouTube, youtube, thank
you.
(00:45):
And shout out we are slowly butsurely building our, our
subscriber account so we got upto.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We got up to about 302.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
yeah, we're doing good with that.
So everybody who continues tolisten, I'm telling you the
video experience is quitedifferent yeah, alfred does a
great job.
Yeah, I'm missing out.
Yeah, I'm missing out.
I mean, christian does a greatjob on audio experience, but
also at the same time.
So many people are used tolistening to us on audio hey we
also got a video experience,guys, so you might as well check
it out.
And, once again, thank you foreveryone the day ones who've
(01:15):
been listening to us on thepodcast.
We appreciate it when you'reworking out, when you're
operating, when you're in clinic, when you're driving, wherever
you are and you're listening tous when you're pulling clinic,
when you're driving wherever youare and you listen to us when
you pull your hamstrings, likeyou said the last time.
Strings yeah, we appreciate ifyou getting your hair twisted
braided.
You got three people rain yeahmm-hmm, we appreciate all of
(01:39):
that.
So, dr Rene, that's I'm in ahotel, you, you.
At home, kids are asleep, werecording this.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Late.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, life is a lot different now than how life was
five years ago, even 10 yearsago.
10 years ago we just gotmarried or close to gotten
married and you know we alwaystell people.
When we got married we foundout we had like almost $700,000
through the loan debt, yep, andit was crazy.
We didn't know what to do we'rebroke as a joke yeah, we also
(02:09):
had a lot of other debt that alot of people don't know about.
So, everybody, we not only justhad six hundred and sixty two
thousand dollars student loandebt, but renee also was on the
was on the lamb.
She was running from the irs.
The irs is coming for you, likeyou was vince, was it not vince
?
What's his name?
Something al capone?
Right?
Renee didn't want to pay hertaxes, right?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
so imagine that we're trying to get married.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
We're trying to get married and it's time to like
tell each other what's going on,and renee's yeah, I was trying
to cash in.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I was like, yeah, I'm about to marry a trauma surgeon
, he gonna pay this debt I wasstill driving a jetta.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I was still driving a nightetta.
I was still driving a 1999.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Volkswagen Jetta.
Yeah, we were going to trade inthat Jetta for that IRS debt.
That's right.
Clank clank, I clank clank.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yo Nii, I want to tell you something right now,
but I got all this IRS debt.
Well, how much IRS debt you got?
It's probably like $2,000,$3,000, $18,000.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, I was doing locums.
I had done locums pretty muchfor a whole year, but at that
time I did not understand theconcept of being an independent
contractor and I wasn't evenlike.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I wasn't even an LLC technically like I was basically
what she's saying is if youdon't know what being a locums
is, basically she was gettingpaid and they would pay her a
certain amount, but theywouldn't take money out for
taxes, they wouldn't take moneyout for health care, they
weren't taking money out,nothing.
They just gave her a large lumpsum.
So imagine she got a hundreddollars when she really, if she
was working, if she was employed, she probably should have got
(03:39):
like fifty dollars.
So sis wasn't taking money outto give to the irs because they
wanted their money.
So you was getting all thislarge sum of money and you
wasn't paying the irs.
Yeah, man, I had to come swoopin and save you, oh please,
whatever clank clank, I plottedand I schemed I remember that I
(03:59):
was literally.
I was like wait, not only do wehave student loan debt together
, now I gotta help pay for yourdamn irs debt dad, ever please,
and you brought in your house,so don't even try it but at that
time when we were dating, wereally it wasn't really debt.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
It was being paid for you just straight up brought,
just like yo the irs on ourbacks, you know whatever you
brought in a house that had hoafees that kept going up and
finally we realized we weren'teven making money on that house
anymore.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
We weren't losing money, but we weren't whatever
we were just breaking even everymonth which I don't know if
that's just as bad, but I meanfor us it wasn't it wasn't great
so guys, I finished, I startedresidency.
As soon as I started residency.
This is 2006.
Yo, right on that bubble, thatbubble, yo, it was in atlanta.
I had no money down, hadnothing saved up and they were
(04:49):
giving loans to everybody and Igot a three bedroom, three and a
half bath.
The house was dope, townhome uh, what do you call it?
It's like a townhome um condocomplex uh condo condos and
stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Right outside.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Atlanta, right near like it was in Mableton, and
yeah, it was $175,000.
That was debt and I had areally bad tenant when I was in
Miami.
And it was one point where Ihad to start using credit card
debt, or I had to start using mycredit cards to make those
(05:26):
payments.
It was bad.
So by the time I also finished,I had $25,000 in credit card
debt.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Cause that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Well, actually no, remember I paid that off before
we got married, so whatever.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, and then it impinged on our wedding plans
Cause then you got mad at mecause I got the trolley.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Then we also had car payments.
Right, you had your lease.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Mm-hmm.
Yep, I had my lease.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
What was that?
That was a Nissan Sentra.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, I love that car .
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, that was $199 a month or $189 a month?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I think $189 a month, if I'm not mistaken.
That was a good car.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
89 a month, if I'm not mistaken.
That was a good car, yeah, thefirst one was the second, sentra
was.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
That was yucky.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
So I think if we totaled out all of our debt, we
probably had roughly about$900,000 of student loan debt.
Probably Not student loan butlike of debt.
Yeah, debt in general, and wehad no clue about that.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Tell everybody why we're even talking about this,
because I don't even think weintroduced.
Why we're talking about all ofthis?
People just think oh, theyspilling the tea today, hunty.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Well, we spilling the tea today on purpose, because
this episode is money trapnumber four.
Right, Money trap number four,which is one of the reasons why
doctors get burnt out, why theyspend so much time working, why
they spend so much time doingthings or pulling themselves
away from what they really wantto do, which is, you know, work,
but they don't want to work allthe time and they want to spend
time with family.
So my trap number four is ishaving too much debt.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
That's a big deal.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
We talk about debt a lot in the show because it
played a major part in our lives.
It played a major part in wherewe live.
The page played a major part inour lives.
It played a major part in wherewe lived.
It played a major part in howwe practice.
It played a major part,possibly, if we could even start
a family right, because debt,debt played a major role in if
we were going to do IVF or notand how we're going to pay for
that and how we were going topay for that.
(07:19):
Yeah, yeah, so that wassomething that I think we were.
I think for me, debt in generalwas something that I was when I
, when we finally did all themathematics and had our first
meeting together, which to thisday, I I think it was very
contentious when we startedtalking about how we were you
always talking about that andI'm like it actually was not
that bad I was.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, it was not that bad me, you know, please, I've
been knowing you 20.
We have had way worse fightsthan that.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
For the friends who know us and are listening, you
know, to pray for us.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Y'all know how Nia Renee get down.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
You know you had to pray for us.
You know we made it, thoughwe're still trying.
But don't listen to Dr Renee.
It was beef.
It was beef.
Beef was an ICU.
Dr Rene, it was beef.
It was beef.
Beef was an ICU, guaranteed tobe ICU, All right.
So listen, All right.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Let's stop stalling and let's get into the meat and
potatoes.
The money trap number four thatkeeps doctors burnt out.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So, listen, guys, the reason why we brought this
example up is just to let youknow that we had a ton of
student loan debt.
We had a ton of consumer debt.
We had a mortgage.
We had a ton of student loandebt, we had a ton of consumer
debt, we had a mortgage.
We had a whole bunch ofdifferent things.
There's a lot of um debt thatwe all deal with that we, to the
most part, I think, wenormalize, we end up living with
.
You know, depending on whichfinancial guru you listen to,
(08:39):
they may say you look at it likea pet or you treat it like a
plant.
Um, and that was us and we went.
Possibly could have been us evenat this point, 10 years in,
right, like yeah well, you know,student loans are just part of
your life and you just pay itbased off of that coupon book
and you make those paymentsuntil you're maybe in your late
do they even send the couponbook anymore?
I don't know if they send acoupon book anymore.
(08:59):
Anybody who knows?
because we ain't got loansanymore, we ain't gotta deal
with that exactly but I'm surethey have a way to send stuff to
your house where listen?
They'll mail it to you and theywill find you right if they
don't get we will find youthey'll find you and they'll
send you that thick book thatyou gotta flip right yeah I
think it's it's really key toalso really quickly talk about.
(09:22):
One thing, though, is, even atthat point where we had all of
this debt, I felt like I didn'treally have a spending problem.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
No, remember we had that discussion.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
And I think people from the outside looking in
would be like yo y'all had aspending problem, because I
don't understand why you wouldget a $175,000 house, renee.
I don't know why you would have$18,000 in debt.
You also got a car payment, butI really felt like I didn't
have a spending problem.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I don't know about you.
No, I felt like I didn't have aspending problem either.
Right, like you know, I wasn'tsomebody who went out and just
spent just to spend.
Right, I spent on things that Ifelt, like you know were, for
the most part, necessities, youknow, for me, and that you know,
that doesn't mean that I didn'tgo out and, you know, go to
restaurants and things like that, but I was.
(10:07):
You know, I felt like I kept mymoney.
I kept my money close enough tome such that I got what I
needed, but the problem was thatI was probably overspending on
things that I actually needed,if that makes any sense, right,
like.
So I wasn't splurging like, oh,I want these jeans, I want
(10:28):
these shoes, I want this bag, Iwant this, whatever, it was
things that I needed, but Iwasn't very intentional about
how much money I was spending onthe things that I actually
needed, and I think that's whathappened was that I overspent on
those things.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, that's what happened was that I overspent on
those things.
Yeah, I, I just didn't do agood job of saving my money.
I'll just be honest with you.
With that, I just would justspend money.
And I didn't buy Jordans, Ididn't buy any of those things.
I didn't buy none of that stuff.
I just didn't know how to savemoney.
I wasn't paying attention to itand I was just hoping that I
got the next payment.
You know, two weeks later andyeah literally half of my
payment went to my mortgageanyway.
(11:04):
So that was that was a hugeissue for me, but um, so, real
quick, before we go on to ournext session, I want to.
I think something's reallyinteresting.
I found this.
This is from 2019.
This is where is it?
I think it's something thatpeople want that have the
(11:26):
highest amounts, or the studentsare graduating with the most
amount of student loan debt oh,it's crazy if this is your
school all right, let's start.
Number one this is from US Newsand Report, so you know they do
their research.
Number one school WesternUniversity of Health Sciences.
I think that's an osteopathicschool yes, that's an
osteopathic school yep tuitionin 2019 2020 was 59 000 dang.
(11:51):
The average indebtedness of thegraduates of 2019 295 000 wowza
second nova southeastern, Ithink that's the osteopathic
school.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, go, do go in state 54 is the first, is the
first two letters of dollars yoout of state 61 000 average in
deadness of 2019 grad 286 000.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
oh my god.
New york medical college that'san MD school.
That's an MD school.
$54,000.
$54,580.
Average indebtedness $258,000.
University of Illinois how isUniversity of Illinois that high
University of Illinois?
That's a public school, right,I thought so.
$46,000.
(12:41):
Out of state $93,000.
Wow, that's probably how.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
That's probably how I made the list.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, west Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine
$21,000 if you're in state,$52,000 if you're out of state.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
they really want you to come, they really want you to
, really want you to be in state.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, Rowan University School of Osteopathic
Medicine $41,000.
In-state, Out-of-state $66,000.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, they de-incentivize coming from
out-of-state.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
EVMS Eastern Virginia Medical School $32,000 in-house
out-of-state.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Not in-house.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Or in-state, you get what I'm saying.
And then Drexel University,ohio university, georgetown,
rounded up, but georgetown is atthe bottom at 232 000.
That is crazy.
So you're already starting offin the starting out behind the
eight ball.
Yeah, then if you're notcareful and you start going
through residency or you gothrough, you know, attending,
(13:42):
you're like I'm, you know, I'vebeen delaying this and I want to
get that and I I'm going tocustom.
That is like Chris Rock.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I'm a custom that is.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I'm a custom that is I want to get a Tesla, I want to
get an S5.
I want to get this nice car.
A yo, that debt yo is going tobuild up and it's going to come
after you, man.
So, that's something that Ithink people got to be careful.
And next, you know you find outthat your paycheck that you get
from whether it's residencydefinitely when you are an
(14:13):
attending you find out like halfof your check is going to pay,
is paying off your car payment,half of your check is paying off
all of these different thingsand you're like the second half
of your check you probably justtrying to catch up and try to
build savings, if that, ifyou've been thinking about that,
yeah, that's crazy.
Yeah, we were there, guys, sodon't think we making this up.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
We were there right, we were definitely there.
And you know, it's it kind oflike what you said, right,
you're catching up.
Literally it takes you, ittakes you two paychecks to be
able to pay for your necessities, right, and you know, sometimes
people are like, well, what'sthe problem?
Like, as long as you know themonth, as long as I could pay
for everything you know over themonth, it's like yeah, but how
(14:52):
much are you saving, how muchare you investing?
How much are you, you know,putting towards retirement?
because if it takes you huh,right, huh investing huh if it
takes you two paychecks to beable to pay your mortgage right,
Like if it takes one paycheckright and then two weeks, two
weeks later, half of that otherpaycheck to be able to pay your
(15:16):
mortgage alone, then the rest ofthat half of the second
paycheck.
Like you still got utilities topay, you still got other bills
that you need to pay.
It's like you literally aregoing to be living paycheck to
paycheck, so paycheck topaycheck.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I think in.
I think in terms of just likeaccruing things that are just
going to increase the amount ofdebt that you have.
I think my advice to people isI think the most important thing
is I understand that you'vedelayed.
Wherever you are at, if you'rein law school, med school,
(15:55):
nursing school, pa school,there's going to be a certain
amount of delaying gratificationthat you're going to get.
I get it.
The thing is is that, likeadding all of this stuff
together, you find out that wayyou did all of this sacrifice
just to get a paycheck so youcan pay off all this debt.
That's crazy, yeah.
So I think it's reallyimportant to understand.
(16:16):
A baseline thought process isis look, what do I desire versus
what do I need.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
And I think the real flex is trying to keep what you
desire as low as possible andreally focusing on what you need
.
I'm not saying like you have tolive a very minimalistic life
even though there's there'sthere's um, there's a lot to be
said about that.
And I think that a lot morepeople are starting to say look
like minimalistic.
Minimalism is where is that?
Right but I think most peoplewho look at minimalism look at
(16:47):
it as you're denying yourselfsomething right, which depending
on how you look at it.
You may be right, maybe wrong,but I do think that lusting
after things and, you know,purchasing things and going
after all these different things, maybe because you didn't get
in your 20s, is going to causesome problems when you're in
your 30s and 40s, you know yeahyeah, I mean, people want that
really nice lifestyle, right?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I mean, that's the thing.
When you're a pre-med and youstart thinking about what life
is going to be like when you area physician, right, when you
finally cross over that finishline, you know, you have in your
head this picture of what itwas going to be like, what, what
you were going to be, thingsyou were going to have, things
(17:29):
you were going to be able to do,and now to get across the
finish line and then have to say, well, no, you know, erase that
picture, because you're notthere yet.
I think that's very hard forpeople.
That's a very harsh reality forpeople, and I think, honestly,
at that point they're just likenot even thinking about how that
(17:52):
picture is inaccurate incomparison to their income and
their debt.
Right, they don't look at theirdebt to income ratio.
All they can think about isthis is what I want my life to
be.
I finally have, you know, theauthority to make certain
decisions for myself, you knowit says MD right it says DO
(18:15):
exactly, and now I can do what Iwant and not to mention.
Not to mention that there isalso, I think, the societal
expectation that, oh you, adoctor, like how are you driving
a Pinto?
You know, how are you driving aPinto?
You?
Speaker 1 (18:29):
know what I mean.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
driving a Toyota Corolla.
How are you driving a ToyotaCorolla, right?
That's what we drive.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
We drive a Toyota Corolla, guys, just so y'all
know.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yes we do so.
You know, there's thatexpectation too, right?
I remember I pull up in my youknow 1991 Nissan Stanza and yes
you, I would valet that thing ifnecessary.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
That was not an attending.
You drove your Stanza untilresidency.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Well, when I was a resident, you didn't even finish
residency.
Hold on, hold on a second.
No, no, no, hold on.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Hold on, stop trying to act like five years ago you
was driving your 91 Stanza.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Hold on, stop playing .
But you got to understand.
People buy these things asresidents, right, people buy
these things as residents Buywhat as?
residents Buy cars, buy nicecars as residents, because now
they're making an income whereasthey never made an income
before.
You got to remember, somepeople's first job is doctor,
right, like, you go to highschool, you go to med school, or
(19:23):
, excuse me, you go to college,then you go to med school.
Your first job might actuallybe residency.
Your first job might actuallybe as a doctor, and so you're
making some money for the firsttime.
You have no clue, like, howmuch money is really this money?
Right, you don't know what itis.
They, you, oh, you're gonna getyou know fifty thousand dollars
(19:44):
.
Hey, you guys need to befollowing aldwin sumari.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
He is now.
He's a resident.
Now, right, yeah, he's aresident.
So aldwin sumari, uh, justgraduated from philadelphia
college of osteopathic medicinehe's on the atlanta georgia
campus and um has made a namefor himself on social media.
Very colorful guy, very, uh,great personality, um.
And now he's on social mediatalking about how, as a written,
(20:15):
as a medical student as amedical student, he was just
paying for everything rightwriting loans, all co-signing,
all this stuff, and now thathe's a resident, he finding out
like he put in all these crazyhours and he's still not getting
money.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I think he did the mathematics yeah, he's like it's
less than minimum wage.
Welcome to medicine yo, we gotto find that and put that in the
show, that post yeah, we gottaput that post in the show notes,
but uh, but yeah, I mean, soyou have to understand too,
right, like why you do that well, you to my point, then you go.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
But why people do that?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
But but rest in peace , tommy Ford.
But people do buy stuff inresidency right, and then it
just starts accumulating fromthere.
You bought a whole house inresidency right.
How many people people itdoesn't matter, but you had the
debt, and that's what we'retalking about today.
Right is people have too muchdebt for the amount of income
(21:13):
that they have and for theamount of debt that they already
have right.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
So before.
So before we'd be able to tellpeople get a used car, but the
used car because thesemiconductor, semiconductor um,
demand or supply is down.
A lot of these car companiescan't make these new cars with,
you know, the infotainmentsystems or you know you have a
tesla.
It's really hard to build thiscar.
The majority of the car is asemiconductor or just in general
(21:39):
.
Covet guys covert reallyhappened and there's a lot of
workers who weren't able to goback a lot of companies.
Covid really happened andthere's a lot of workers who
weren't able to go back.
A lot of companies that youknow.
The production line is just notthe same as it used to be, so
there's a big shortage of newcars out there.
So the used car market is goingup like crazy and, as a result,
(22:00):
a used car is just as expensive,if not more expensive, than an
MSRP.
So, the reason I'm bringingthis up.
What you said, too, is like ifyou are even looking for a used
car is just as expensive, if notmore expensive, than an MSRP.
So the reason I'm bringing thisup.
What you said, too, is like ifyou are even looking for a used
car now as a resident or even asa as an attending I got some
stats Hold on.
It says the average car paymentas a first quarter of 2022 is
averaging $648 a month Yo $648 amonth and then the average, the
(22:25):
average.
Basically, the average car loanterm is now 72 months 72 months
.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Hey, alfred, you know I don't want to do math.
Alfred, put the math right hereon the screen, please.
You asking Alfred to do themath now?
72 months, how many years isthat?
Hook it up.
Hook it up.
I don't know how many yearsthat is, you don't know how much
.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
72 months, yeah, that's six years.
Hello, I'm a doctor.
Now, you know, the wholekeeping up with the Joneses, you
(23:06):
know, really does stick withpeople and they and they're
trying to do that, even inresidency.
But then once they becomeattendings and that five figure
salary turns into a six figuresalary, I mean it can be really
detrimental to people's you know, to people's lifestyles.
So they think that theirlifestyle is about to get better
, but actually what's happeningis potentially it's getting
(23:27):
worse, because they realize theyhave more money but they don't
realize that the debt is stilltaking up a big chunk of that
money.
Nickel and diamond, right.
And then they're buying evenmore.
They're buying even more oncredit, right, they're buying
even more on credit.
So they're swiping their cards,you know.
They're getting a new car,they're buying a bigger home,
(23:51):
you know things like that, right.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So you know, and you got to be careful because some
people, you know, some peopletry to use the whole credit card
thing of well, I'm travelhacking or credit card hacking.
so right you know, I'm using mycredit card for all of these
home expenses or maybe theseexpenses when I'm on the road
and I'm getting these points,but you got to make sure that
you're paying that stuff at theend of the month, right?
So no interest is making,because that's they're able to.
(24:15):
That's how these credit cardcompanies are able to offer all
of these benefits, is there's?
a significant amount of peoplewho don't pay their monthly
balance.
The interest that they make offof that is how they're able to
provide all of these greatbenefits for everybody.
So if you pay that on time.
They're not making any moneyfor you off of you and they're
gonna actually hate your guts.
But you know you just gotta bereally careful.
(24:37):
So yeah you know, I, I thinkthat you know, I think that's
that's one secret that I think alot of folks don't tell people
when they make it to a certainpoint, which is, yeah, like the
more money you make, the moreproblems you have and the more
bills and debt that you readmore money, more problems you
(24:57):
got to be careful, no money,more problems.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
You know the other.
The other thing that we didn'tnecessarily mention is
co-signing, right, so a lot ofus may have co-signed loans, but
again, right, society, societybelieves oh you, big shot,
doctor now you doctor now.
Yo, doctor, now right.
And so people come to you andthey're like, hey, can you, can
(25:22):
you co-sign this particular loanfor me?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
You know, I'm good for it.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Exactly, people will ask you now that you're a
physician and you making allthis big time money, right, come
and co-sign for me.
And you know I have a nephew, Ilove him dearly.
He came to me, remember.
He came to me and was like ohTati, can you co-sign this loan
for me for this car?
I literally laughed out loud.
(25:48):
I was like I was like I don'tco-sign.
I was like I'm gonna tell youright now it's really nothing
against you, but I don't cosign.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Why don't you cosign?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
My sister cosigned for me.
I appreciated it, but she alsowent through the pain, right.
She also went through the painof watching me dodge, you know,
student loans, right.
And so I remembered that and Iwas like, yeah, I don't want
somebody to do that to me.
So I said, no, I don't co-sign.
(26:23):
What I can do is if I have themoney, I can give it to you.
You know, I can give you moneybut I am not going to co-sign.
So you know, we ended up givinghim a little something to put
towards a down payment for hiscar loan or whatever it was.
(26:44):
Yeah, we did, we gave himsomething you don't remember,
but we did.
We gave him something.
But no, no, we gave him.
I would not give him somethingwithout telling you it doesn't
make any sense.
But no, I don't co-sign,because when you co-sign
somebody, essentially whatyou're doing is you're adding
(27:04):
more debt to yourself.
You think it's not your debt,it is your debt, like that is
totally your debt, right Causethey would not be able to get it
were it not for your signatureon that paper.
So technically it is your debtand it does add to your debt, to
income ratio.
So you have to think about thatthat if you are co-signing for
(27:25):
people, you need to be really,really careful, because it can
affect your credit score.
It can affect your ability topay your own bills, especially
if this person is defaulting ontheir loans.
So you need to be really,really careful.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
So I think it's really important that we kind of
put a low key flex out there.
That we learned recently and Italked with our new CPA about
this he's gonna be featured on afuture episode which is, if you
get asked to co-sign or if youget asked constantly by certain
people to give money or tosupport family in some form or
(28:02):
fashion, particularly if youhave a side hustle or if you
have a side business, if you areworking locums and you're doing
independent contracting,whatever you may be doing, hire
that person Right.
Whatever you may be doing, hirethat person right and then loan
them or excuse me, give themmoney as a salary or give them
money like that so that itbecomes tax deductible right
that's one way, particularly ifyou have someone who who is
(28:24):
constantly asking you for money,right, right, so then you kind
of put them on salary and thenit becomes beneficial for you
yeah and then it becomesbeneficial for them yeah and
definitely.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Um, always have some sort of a contract.
Always have some sort of acontract as to if you're loaning
somebody some money and youexpect for that money to come
back, always come back.
Always do a contract for that,because that could be a very
contentious thing.
When someone says, no, you gaveme that money, it's like no, I
(28:57):
loaned you that money.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Here's another.
I watch a lot of Judge.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Judy y'all, here's another one too.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Here's another one too, for example, like your
nephew who wanted to get a car.
Another thing too is you canget a car put on toro or put it
on lyft.
So toro is like basicallyairbnb for your car.
Right, you use an app and youbasically rent out your car to
(29:25):
anybody.
I use toro whenever we go to adifferent town and I don't want
to just rent from avis or hertz.
I go to toro and I can rentlike a, a um, like a tesla, or
we could rent like a really nicecar, and if you look at all of
the fees that you're not payingbecause you're renting from an
airport, if you compare thosefeet the fees that you're not
paying by using Toro and you geta really nice car it comes out
(29:47):
to a little bit cheaper thanrenting from Avis or Hertz.
So you can put your car on thatand now anytime you use that
car for Toro, which is to rentit out, it becomes tax
deductible right.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
In other words, you're using your debt, you know
, as a source of income, right,like that's actually in and
that's what when they pay you,but when the person is supposed
to pay.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Right right, right to be paying you so they're paying
you back or they're paying back.
You know the the business thatpurchased the car, right?
So you're whatever businesspurchased the car and you're
letting him, him or her use it,but they're still paying you.
And if they can't pay you, thenworst case scenario, you put it
on toro and you make some moneyfrom that right.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
In other words, yeah, you use your.
You you're using your debt as asource of income.
Take the car back, yep Right,and that's the thing.
Right, that's really what debtis supposed to do for you.
It's supposed to be some sortof an investment, right?
That's why, a lot of times, wesay, oh well, if you buy a house
, it's an investment.
You know, your debt is reallysupposed to be an investment for
(30:52):
you, supposed to have some sortof return.
But we don't really look at itlike that, right?
I think most people don't lookat debt as something that is
supposed to be, you know, aninvested venture.
I think people look at debt aswell, you know it's a substitute
(31:12):
for cash and really shouldn'tbe that.
So I think we should talk about, you know, ignoring those
student loan debt, that studentloan debt and pretty much the
you know the effects that it canhave, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
On on doctors in particular.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Say again you talk about going on autopilot, yeah,
going on autopilot, yeah goingon autopilot, ignoring it,
ignoring the things thatpotentially could help people
decrease their debt even faster.
Those are the things that Ithink definitely keep people
burnt out.
Right, you keep thinking aboutthis debt and you keep like,
(31:53):
just, I think Dr lucy, dr lucyhad mentioned, you know how she
basically had a full-blown likepanic attack just thinking about
the debt, right, like that wasepisode 285, right, and she just
had a whole full-blown panicattack.
And I think that she's notalone.
I don't know that people havefull-blown panic attacks, but do
(32:14):
think that people you know sitwith the debt and it sees, you
know, and a lot of people don'tknow what to do.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
They're not sure what to do, Right, and as a result,
they decide well, I'm just goingto follow the plan that the
company put out for me.
I'll follow the coupon book orfollow whatever happens in my
email.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, and or I'll dodge it.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
A lot of people don't know that there's so many
different things that you can doto really kind of decrease one,
the total amount that you'regoing to pay, to maybe decrease
the interest rate on it or threedecrease just automatic
payments, which is good.
I think there's so much morethat you can do, you know and
I'm going to put in the link,but there's a a really good
(33:05):
article from studentloanherocom.
If you go to studentloanherocomand you go to the links, that's
in the show notes there's astudent loan repayment guide for
doctors.
There's also one for otherprofessionals also and it talks
about all of the differentthings that you can do, One
being refinancing your loansright.
So if your loan interest rateis at a certain rate, like you
(33:27):
go to a company and they willbuy your loan and then offer you
a lower interest rate,hopefully right.
There's also just understandingthat maybe you need to get into
the public service loanforgiveness plan right when you
know, for a certain amount ofyears and a certain amount of
payments that you're going tomake.
After that you know thegovernment is going to relieve
(33:49):
or it's going to forgive thosepayments.
Those are something to considerA lot of people right now who
are struggling.
Right now, interest rates aregoing high may not even be in
the six-figure range and you'rewondering how am I going to make
my student loan payments right?
there's income-based repaymentright, so there's like all of
these different things that areout there that we can consider.
We talked about it, you know,with, uh, with travis hornsby in
(34:11):
290 that was episode, episode 2.
299 that everybody needs to gotake a listen to that.
There's just multiple ways thatyou could skin a cat to make
sure that your loans are waymore efficient and that you're,
for the most part, your studentloan debt is way more efficient.
You can do the same thing withyour, with your, with your debt.
There's like high, you knowyour high interest rate debt.
(34:31):
You can a lot of peoplerefinance those also yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I mean.
Another thing that you couldpotentially do is when you are
looking for a job right whenyou're looking for a job, one of
the things that you cannegotiate is student loan
repayment.
You actually did that, um, youknow, and negotiated some
student loan repayment, you know, for your job.
You know where we should havewent harder yeah, you should
(34:57):
have gone harder.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
I had ten thousand dollars every year would go
towards my student loans yeah,that was ten thousand dollars,
like before tax right.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
so, but I mean, I think that that's really
important.
You know, we're partnering withst john associates, um, and
they're a staffing, they're astaffing company.
They do a staffing company.
They do mostly permanent.
Actually, they don't do anylocums, they do permanent
staffing, right, and so this isone of the things that you know.
If you were to go with astaffing agency, that, yeah,
(35:27):
you're going to want to ask, youknow, hey, or you're going to
want to present, as I saidbefore, right in a previous
episode, you're going to want topresent that as a potential
condition of you working at thatparticular job in St John.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Let's just be real.
Let's be real Like if you areworking with St John or if
you're working with any staffingcompany like you need to be
telling people.
Listen.
I got student loans.
What can you do to help?
Speaker 2 (35:55):
me with that.
From a company standpoint,that's what I would say
absolutely it's like.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
It's like, you know.
We have Cedric.
You know Dr Cedric who runspolicy prescriptions.
Remember he was like like thewhole notion of going to medical
school or going to collegenowadays, you know, depending on
where you come from like youreally shouldn't have to pay
that much, right like you right.
You may not necessarily need togo to like the big time schools,
but there are plenty of schoolsthat want you there.
And it's the same thing withthese hospitals.
Like, it's like yo for real,for real.
(36:20):
Like, if you've got a lot ofstudent loan debt, you need to
be negotiating that in yourcontract.
Asa, I would do that more thanthe salary, I don't care.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
And when you have a company,you know the new kids on the
block, right?
St John Associates has beendoing this for well over 30
years.
I mean their experience, right.
Like they, they can definitelyhelp walk you through what you
need to be presenting to.
You know, whatever new hospitalthat you're going to be going
to think about.
(36:51):
The income also, right, becausewe talked about, yeah, you're
going to be getting a six-figureincome, but every six-figure
income is not, you know, is notmade equal, right?
So what does that mean for you?
You know.
So if they're touting, oh well,you know you're going to get
$350K.
You know, working as whateverspecialty you're in, because
(37:14):
they do all specialties.
Their forte is ortho, but theydo work with all specialties.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
But is that know how to replace potassium here we go
again, here we go again.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
So if you do know how to replace potassium, okay,
which means you would not be anortho doc, you could still
actually work with St Johnassociates, because they could
place you too, because, sincethey do all specialties, okay,
is that better for you knee?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But anyway, you know, at least know how to use their
electrolyte replacement guide.
Okay, it's fine, it's okay, it'sokay.
They're not going to learn.
Just get, just get over it.
They're not going to learn.
I'm gonna just answer Orthosare not going to learn.
Babe, I'm sorry, just get overit.
But think about the salary thatyou're making.
We kind of talked about this inthe previous, the previous
(38:06):
money trap with the income youhave to negotiate right.
Part of negotiating your incomeis actually thinking about how
much debt you have you know whatI mean.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that that's what I think
.
That's one thing that I thinkwe can do a better job of is
letting people know that money,or money can look, how you get
paid, looks different than justa salary, right.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Like it's not just a straight salary of them giving
you money Right Like, right,like it could be a benefit,
right like you know pay time off.
It could be CME.
Some hospitals give you likeright like $20,000 in CME I'm
using that as an exaggerationbut like, yeah, your salary may
be like median with everybodyelse or maybe a little bit lower
depending on where you're at,but if you have really great
(38:51):
benefits, then like it mayoutweigh having a nice salary.
So, if there's a way that youcan say hey, you know what, I
don't want to sign on bonusRight.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Right.
Don't want to sign on Right.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
I just want you to take care of my, my student
loans, right.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Cause the reason.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I don't like sign on bonuses is because, more often
than not, sign on bonuses aresign on loans.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Right, that's usually what it is, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Golden handc handcuffs, and you got to be
there for three or five years.
So I'm like, right, just giveme, you know, 10k or 15k or 20k
or even more than that everyyear towards my student loan for
every year that I'm here.
That's it, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
So I agree with you there yeah, and then, and then I
obviously look see, you knowhow that staffing company is
getting paid, right, becausethat's another thing, right?
So St John Associates, theyonly get paid if there's a match
.
There's no match, you don't getpaid.
You know they don't get paid,right?
So if you don't get paid, theydon't get paid, which is really
(39:52):
good.
If you don't get paid, theydon't get paid, which is really
good.
So you know, check them out.
They're at stjohnjobscom.
Slash docs okay.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
We'll put that in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
But check them out.
They do a great job.
They don't put your CV all overthe place.
We kind of beat that horse todeath in a couple of episodes
before this one.
But yeah, I think you knowpeople don't realize the amount
of damage that not paying debtcan do, right, Whether it's
student loan, debt.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
So I was actually going to ask you about that.
Let's pivot real quick.
Yeah, I get what you're sayingthere, and I think we kind of
talked about that.
Let's pivot to talk about.
let's talk about this in adifferent way, so that we can
kind of just do you think if youwere to do this again?
You're 10 years out now.
Right, we finished in 2017.
We're now like what?
Almost five years, uh, payingoff all of our student loan debt
(40:46):
, right, probably like fouryears, three years now from
paying everything off, right?
So if you could do it again,would you pay off your debt off
early, or would you take a moremodest approach to paying off
your debt?
If no one?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
would you still knew?
Speaker 1 (41:05):
back then, knowing what you still knew back then
knowing what I still.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
But I didn't know anything, and that was the
problem right, like you know now, know what you don't know okay
that that makes more sense right, knowing what I know now,
knowing what I know now, Iprobably for you, whatever
anyway.
But I mean you're asking me ifI knew, then I'm like if I knew
what I knew, then then I woulddo the same thing regardless
anyway, so the question so,knowing what I know now, I
(41:33):
probably still I probably stillwould have paid it off quickly.
Why Right?
Because when I figured, when Ifigured out what, what I, when I
figured out what the impact wasfor me right, when I, when I, I
think what happens is whenpeople like me and like you
(41:54):
realize what the impact is, thenwe want that monkey off our
backs, right?
So the impact of not payingyour debt is having this anxiety
, right, this anxiety of havingthis debt that you owe somebody
and you just don't want to haveit.
Not everybody has that feeling,right?
Some people are just fine withhaving debt.
(42:15):
You and I are just not thosepeople.
I don't like knowing that I owepeople.
The other thing is, you know,getting deeper in debt and
knowing that, okay, if I eitherdefer or forbear, or even if I'm
paying it off right, even if Iam paying it off, I'm still
paying more than if I would havejust paid it off all at once.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Well, the whole thought process Right.
The opposite is well.
Knowing what you know now, forexample, would you have been as
aggressive on the federal part,like I definitely understand the
private part?
I think I would have been theprivate part for everybody who
is listening.
I don't know why we all say foreveryone.
Of course people are listeningfor folks that are listening,
(43:04):
put it on there.
Or the opposite way for thefolks that are listening our
private loans were like anywherebetween like nine to like 13%
yeah, and it came out to a totalof 180 000.
Yeah about then we had privateand then we had federal loans
all together that was obviouslylike 530 000, that was like 2.2
(43:28):
percent to like 2.3 percentyou're pointing in the same
direction right, so that's whereI want them to put the oh,
that's where you wanted to putit yeah, put the numbers.
Oh, that's where you want themto put it.
Yeah, put the numbers there.
Hook it up, alfred.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Can I fit?
Do I give you enough space?
But anyway Do you need somemore work.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
So the question is I get that you would take the
private loans off first becausethey were at a very high
interest rate.
They were higher than what mostpeople say, like the big part
in the road is like five to sixpercent.
If you have interest rate thatis more than five to six percent
, then you should pay it off.
If you have interest that'sless than that, then maybe you
should invest, right, um, orcertainly you shouldn't pay it
(44:03):
off, you should invest, as.
So the question is would youstill?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I think I still would have, because that anxiety for
me of owing somebody was justthat much, you know.
And then, and then the otherthing is, you know, like your
credit score, right, your creditscore continues to suffer,
right, you can't build up yourcredit score the way that you
(44:30):
would necessarily want to, atleast not as fast as you would
want to, because your debt toincome ratio is just that much,
is just that much and for me,like you know, I'm not a person
who, I'm not a person who caresso much about my credit score,
but for, for those people who do, I think that that's something
(44:51):
you know to think about, right,like, how quickly can you, you,
you know, re recoup that creditscore?
Speaker 1 (44:58):
I think, for me, the thing that I thought about the
most was I didn't feel free likeI didn't feel free to like move
from job to job to job to job,because I felt like well, like I
didn't have the time to lose ajob because or leave and go to
another job and who really wantsto do that?
but like I just kind of felt,like I was like wait, like the
(45:20):
reason I became a doctor isbecause I wanted to kind of just
do my own thing and like be myown boss.
And you combine that with likelike medicine is really not like
that at all right, like it'sright it's really not.
Yeah, you're employed, or youwork in this type of employed
model, and then you throw, throwon top of that.
It's like well, the number onething is if I lose my job, how
am I gonna pay my loans?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
As opposed to thinking about Right, but that's
part of the anxiety.
Right Of owing somebody Right,but I'm just saying my story.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
That's what I was thinking of.
And I think for me it wasreally more like yeah, I don't
know if, or, excuse me, I don'twant to know if I want to stay
at this place more than threeyears.
I don't know if I want to livein this part of the world or
this part of the country forthis?
Like, what if I want to dosomething different?
Right, and I think that when Iwas, you know, when we found out
about PSLF, obviously we didn'tqualify for it, right, because
(46:07):
it was after when we graduated,right, you know, I would talk to
some people.
I'm like yo, you want to be atthis place for 10 years.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Right, I get it and it's smart, but I'm like damn, I
don't know if I want to be inone place.
But you don't have to be in oneplace.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Yeah, you don't actually have to be in one place
for 10 years, but you got toguarantee that you're going to
be at a nonprofit, which mosthospitals are nonprofit Most
hospitals are.
But I mean Right, like if youdecide that you want to join a
practice huh 501C practice, orsomething.
Well, I mean, I don't know howmany you know nonprofit
(46:42):
practices, you know privatepractices there are out there,
but you know you, you would haveto forego maybe something that
you feel is an opportunity justto do that.
But for some people that's fine, right, fine right.
For some people, you know thatthat's really fine.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Um the other thing was well, let me just finish.
I just think that I I think alot of professionals, low-key
don't value how much debt,whatever it may be, makes you
make certain decisions.
That oh yeah kind of subliminalie what specialty you're going
(47:20):
to choose, ie what part of thecountry you're going to live, ie
what kind of BS you're going toput up with at work and it,
low-key, makes those decisionsfor you.
You have no clue that you'remaking decisions because of how
much debt you got.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Exactly.
And then, not to mention thefact that a lot of professionals
don't even appropriately managetheir money.
They're not budgeting right, soyou end up with late payments.
You end up with, you know,getting deeper into debt because
of those late payments.
You know, again, your creditscore suffers Like you have all
(47:56):
of this big snowball effect ofthings that is happening, and
then that you know thatcondition that you're living in,
you know, then makes it harderfor you to even say no, like I
don't want to work here anymoreor no, I don't want to do this
extra thing that the hospital'sasked me to do, you know.
And I don't want to put my jobin jeopardy though, so I guess
(48:19):
I'm just going to have to do it,you know.
And so for me, I think, knowingwhat I know now, yeah, I think
I would still have paid it offvery quickly, because I just
don't like the anxiety thatcomes with owing somebody,
because that anxiety of owingsomeone comes with all these
other little branches ofconsequences, like you just
(48:42):
mentioned, and I don't want tohave to deal with that um, if I
could do it again, I I think Iwouldn't.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
I would do it the same way, but I wouldn't do it
with as much of a scarcitymindset as I did.
Right, because I think what'sthat mean?
That means that basically thismoney is not coming Like.
It's going to be hard to getthis money Right.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Like it's very like you become very not selfish with
the money, but you feel likegetting that money is hard to
get.
So, as a result, you becomevery neurotic about the money.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Right, okay, and.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
I think after a while I was getting very neurotic
about the money, okay.
And I think after a while I wasgetting very neurotic, okay,
where's this next set of moneygoing to come?
We have to continue makingthese payments towards the
student loans.
So as a result like you justbecome very, more type A and I
was becoming very type A aboutmaking sure that you know I did
extra work, like we talk about.
You know doing locums Duringthis time.
(49:38):
You know, those three years,what was I doing?
I was an employed doc and thenthe other two weeks I would take
locums jobs and I would workthat and that's what we would
use to pay your IVF right or payfor.
IVF treatments right and likenothing was going to happen
unless we.
We worked those shifts.
It was just very rigid and Ijust say, from a standpoint of
when you finish, that it's hardto turn that off.
(49:59):
Right, it's really hard to turnthat off and sometimes that
scarcity mindset well, I meanfor you.
It was but that.
Who am I speaking for?
it is my is your, is your voicespeaking or my voice, speaking
right like well, I'm just sayingfor you, it was right so I just
I think that that's one of mythings that I look back, I'm
like it's good to pay off thatdebt, but I think I could have
(50:21):
done a little bit differentlywith less heartache and stuff.
Um, maybe not three, maybe fouryears possibly, who knows?
Speaker 2 (50:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
But either way, I I definitely think that, um, you
know, we kind of beat this horsedown, that we were talking
about how, like, the big trap isjust kind of making sure that
you know, a significant portionof what you bring in is not
going towards, you know.
Consumer debt right carpayments, house like trying to
afford everything and keep upwith the joneses you got to
start keeping that money foryourself and just really
understanding.
(50:49):
I think the big thing for me isjust really understanding what I
desire, what I want versus whatI need that was a game changer
for me and, um, I think knowwhen people start to really
understand.
Okay, hold on a second.
If I can't pay cash for it,then if I can't, I can't afford
it.
I can't afford it.
Or if I can't pay cash, if I'mgoing to use my credit card to
do it and I have a means ofpaying this back by the end of
(51:11):
the week or to make sure thatI'm not going over and and
getting interest charges on it,then I can't afford it, right,
because I right look, we got tobe realistic.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Some people do that right they buy it with their
credit card and then they pay itoff before then they pay it off
, yeah, absolutely, just to getthe perks of the credit card and
that's fine, you know.
If you're organized enough todo that, um, then great.
If you, like me, you probablydon't want to do that because
you will be paying interest, youknow.
And then the other thing thatwe didn't talk about speaking of
(51:40):
, like missing payments andthings like that don't forget
like, if you miss enoughpayments and go into a into
default right, whether it'sfederal or depending, or if you
know, if you have a private loan, it may, you know, the terms of
default may differ, um, but ifyou have a private loan, the
terms of default may differ.
But if you go into default, theywill come after your money.
(52:03):
The IRS has a way of gettingpaid.
You will get garnished.
At the extreme, you will getgarnished and then now you
really won't have any controlwhatsoever over how much money
is going to You're paying childsupport to sally may, right,
exactly, exactly, they got us inyour rage is one thing that I
think exactly.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
And you still can't see your kids I think one thing
that a lot of people don't thinkabout is they always talk about
well, if I keep my studentloans as a tax, you know break,
well, that's actually amisconception.
All these things that I'mtaking guys, I'm getting these
from different uh, uh, you knowarticles that, uh, that I found
I'll put it in a show notes, butbasically it says the tax
deduction for your student loansis limited to $25,000 of
(52:45):
student loan interest you pay.
It also begins to phase out whenyour income reaches $70,000,
right so you're getting close tothat If you're a resident
you're right, your chief year or?
Maybe if you're in your like,really like advanced level of
fellowship and is eliminated andadjusted gross income and AGI
of $85,000 or 140,000 and$170,000 respectively, if you
(53:08):
file a joint return.
So I just want people to knowthat listen, that that whole
notion of, well, I'm going tokeep the student loans as a tax
break, hey, that's not, reallyit's not yeah, that might not
necessarily apply.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Right, we can't say that it absolutely won't, but it
might not necessarily apply.
You know, and this is where youknow, this is where I think, if
you don't have enough time tolook up all the things that you
could potentially do in order todecrease your debt burden,
whether that's student loan,debt or any other debt, that's
(53:42):
where it might be worth it foryou to talk to.
You know, a professional right.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Someone who can help you out there.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Exactly Someone who can help you to make a plan for
this debt, or you, you know,figure out how you can construct
this debt such that it's not asmuch of a burden as it
currently might be to you, and Ithink that that's really
important.
I think, as doctors, residentsand full attendings like I don't
(54:11):
necessarily think that we havethe time to sit down and just,
you know, comb througheverything and figure out, you
know, how we're going todecrease our debt burden, so you
know the money that you mightpay a professional to do it.
You know it might be a littlebit annoying, but in the long
run, it might actually save youa lot of time, a lot of energy
(54:32):
and a lot of pain so, and theyknow about things that you may
not know about, so right we hadtravis horsby on.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
He was episode 2.
He's one of those professionalsout there.
Make sure you mention docsoutside the box.
You get a really nice bonus.
Um, so you know, we makingthings happen here with you know
, teaming up and and partneringup with, uh, folks as well as
companies that we think aregoing to benefit you as a
professional, as a student, youknow, as a resident.
(54:59):
So make sure you guys check outthese and support these people
who are in the show notes, aswell as on our affiliates and so
forth.
So listen, renee, let's wrapthis up.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Let's wrap it up.
Let's wrap it up yo, because wegot to go.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
So what's the parting words you want to say for folks
on this episode?
Speaker 2 (55:18):
I think the parting words for me is don't ignore
your student loan debt, don'tignore any debt that you have.
You know, try to keep, try tobe very intentional about either
whatever debt you currentlyhave or any debt that presents
itself that you couldpotentially get into right.
And so don't just think about Iwant it, I want it.
(55:41):
I want it because debt is not asubstitute for cash.
Right, credit is not cash.
Credit comes with interest andyou know, if you start to treat
credit like cash other than just, you know, paying off your
credit card, you know, withinthe 30 day, whatever window, if
(56:02):
you start to treat credit likecash, then you're going to be,
you're going to be stuck for avery long time.
So just be mindful.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
I love it, it's great .
Why don't we leave it at that?
I think I'll keep mine reallyshort and simple and just be
like hey, guys, you know youwant to make sure that all of
the investment, all of thesacrifice that you put in, you
know, years ago, maybe evendecades ago, is really going to
show its fruits.
You don't want to mortgage thatliterally because you have so
much debt.
(56:31):
You have all of these differentthings that you're paying for.
You're not able to reallyinvest it in yourself, which is
health and wealth.
You have all of these differentthings that you're paying for
and you're not able to reallyinvest it in yourself, which is
health and wealth, and I thinkthat that's that's where it's
supposed to be at.
Your physical health as well as,you know, your mental health.
That's the most important thing.
So listen, guys, we are goingto end this episode.
Remember, if you want to get incontact with us, if you want to
let us know what you thinkabout the show, if you go to the
(57:01):
show notes, you will see thatthere is a link for a survey
right within crowd.
Make sure you check that out.
It's also an opportunity foryou to make some money with your
medical expertise, so check outin crowd.
We have a great partnership withthem.
And then if you want to followus on Instagram, it's dr knee
Darko.
That's where you can find outall of some of our clips, some
of the things on our episodepreviews on up as upcoming shows
that are coming up.
If you want to find out and seewhat's on our website, check us
(57:23):
out at drkneedarcocom.
Or if you want to email us,email us at team at
drkneedarcocom.
Let us know what's up, let usknow what's good and we'll be
sure to get in contact with you.
Dr renee, why?
Why don't you tell them?
Speaker 2 (57:36):
I got one more thing.
I got one more thing to say Um,we have a casting call, um for
residents and fellows,preferably those who are maybe
one year out from graduating orin their year of graduation, um,
so look for that um at DrNidarko, or actually look for
that at Dr Nidark.
Need darko on instagram, um,and also, if you haven't signed
(58:01):
up for our newsletter, you cando that on the website, um, and
that will also um get you to uhthe casting call.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
I'll send out an email about that, but I'm so
proud.
Look at that everyone.
You see how we growing here atdocs outside the box.
Maybe it was just me struggling.
Speaker 2 (58:16):
We're using a little scrub.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
Trying to make things happen.
Now we got Dr Renee, we gotCarla, we got Alfred, we got
Christian.
We got all these people up inhere.
I'm not giving their last namesbecause I want nobody trying to
steal them from me.
We got all these people here,man, considering you say.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
Christian Perry at the end of this, at the end of
every episode.
I think they already know whoChristian is.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
But listen, guys, we got to get going, we got to pay
the bills.
Guys, we will catch you all onthe next episode of Docs Outside
the Box.
Remember this is a fusion ofmoney, medicine and pop culture.
We appreciate y'all.
Speaker 2 (58:52):
Catch you on the next one.
Speaker 1 (58:54):
Peace.
three, two, one was good everyone.
I am dr knee.
I am joined by dr reneechristian alfred, go ahead and
give us some confetti.
Please, please, please, please,welcome everyone.
This is another episode of docsoutside the box, where we are
fusing money, medicine and popculture as well as no, I don
(00:25):
don't say as well as anymore.
I've stepped my game up, renee,don't try to trip me up New
host, new laptop, new microphone.
You know I'm not making thosemistakes anymore, but listen
everyone, welcome back.
Thank you very much forlistening.
Those who are listening to usthrough YouTube, those who,
sorry, those who are watching usthrough YouTube, youtube, thank
you.
(00:45):
And shout out we are slowly butsurely building our, our
subscriber account so we got upto.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We got up to about 302.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
yeah, we're doing good with that.
So everybody who continues tolisten, I'm telling you the
video experience is quitedifferent yeah, alfred does a
great job.
Yeah, I'm missing out.
Yeah, I'm missing out.
I mean, christian does a greatjob on audio experience, but
also at the same time.
So many people are used tolistening to us on audio hey we
also got a video experience,guys, so you might as well check
it out.
And, once again, thank you foreveryone the day ones who've
(01:15):
been listening to us on thepodcast.
We appreciate it when you'reworking out, when you're
operating, when you're in clinic, when you're driving, wherever
you are and you're listening tous when you're pulling clinic,
when you're driving wherever youare and you listen to us when
you pull your hamstrings, likeyou said the last time.
Strings yeah, we appreciate ifyou getting your hair twisted
braided.
You got three people rain yeahmm-hmm, we appreciate all of
(01:39):
that.
So, dr Rene, that's I'm in ahotel, you, you.
At home, kids are asleep, werecording this.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Late.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, life is a lot different now than how life was
five years ago, even 10 yearsago.
10 years ago we just gotmarried or close to gotten
married and you know we alwaystell people.
When we got married we foundout we had like almost $700,000
through the loan debt, yep, andit was crazy.
We didn't know what to do we'rebroke as a joke yeah, we also
(02:09):
had a lot of other debt that alot of people don't know about.
So, everybody, we not only justhad six hundred and sixty two
thousand dollars student loandebt, but renee also was on the
was on the lamb.
She was running from the irs.
The irs is coming for you, likeyou was vince, was it not vince
?
What's his name?
Something al capone?
Right?
Renee didn't want to pay hertaxes, right?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
so imagine that we're trying to get married.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
We're trying to get married and it's time to like
tell each other what's going on,and renee's yeah, I was trying
to cash in.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I was like, yeah, I'm about to marry a trauma surgeon
, he gonna pay this debt I wasstill driving a jetta.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I was still driving a nightetta.
I was still driving a 1999.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Volkswagen Jetta.
Yeah, we were going to trade inthat Jetta for that IRS debt.
That's right.
Clank clank, I clank clank.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yo Nii, I want to tell you something right now,
but I got all this IRS debt.
Well, how much IRS debt you got?
It's probably like $2,000,$3,000, $18,000.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, I was doing locums.
I had done locums pretty muchfor a whole year, but at that
time I did not understand theconcept of being an independent
contractor and I wasn't evenlike.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I wasn't even an LLC technically like I was basically
what she's saying is if youdon't know what being a locums
is, basically she was gettingpaid and they would pay her a
certain amount, but theywouldn't take money out for
taxes, they wouldn't take moneyout for health care, they
weren't taking money out,nothing.
They just gave her a large lumpsum.
So imagine she got a hundreddollars when she really, if she
was working, if she was employed, she probably should have got
(03:39):
like fifty dollars.
So sis wasn't taking money outto give to the irs because they
wanted their money.
So you was getting all thislarge sum of money and you
wasn't paying the irs.
Yeah, man, I had to come swoopin and save you, oh please,
whatever clank clank, I plottedand I schemed I remember that I
(03:59):
was literally.
I was like wait, not only do wehave student loan debt together
, now I gotta help pay for yourdamn irs debt dad, ever please,
and you brought in your house,so don't even try it but at that
time when we were dating, wereally it wasn't really debt.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
It was being paid for you just straight up brought,
just like yo the irs on ourbacks, you know whatever you
brought in a house that had hoafees that kept going up and
finally we realized we weren'teven making money on that house
anymore.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
We weren't losing money, but we weren't whatever
we were just breaking even everymonth which I don't know if
that's just as bad, but I meanfor us it wasn't it wasn't great
so guys, I finished, I startedresidency.
As soon as I started residency.
This is 2006.
Yo, right on that bubble, thatbubble, yo, it was in atlanta.
I had no money down, hadnothing saved up and they were
(04:49):
giving loans to everybody and Igot a three bedroom, three and a
half bath.
The house was dope, townhome uh, what do you call it?
It's like a townhome um condocomplex uh condo condos and
stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Right outside.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Atlanta, right near like it was in Mableton, and
yeah, it was $175,000.
That was debt and I had areally bad tenant when I was in
Miami.
And it was one point where Ihad to start using credit card
debt, or I had to start using mycredit cards to make those
(05:26):
payments.
It was bad.
So by the time I also finished,I had $25,000 in credit card
debt.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Cause that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Well, actually no, remember I paid that off before
we got married, so whatever.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, and then it impinged on our wedding plans
Cause then you got mad at mecause I got the trolley.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Then we also had car payments.
Right, you had your lease.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Mm-hmm.
Yep, I had my lease.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
What was that?
That was a Nissan Sentra.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, I love that car .
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, that was $199 a month or $189 a month?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I think $189 a month, if I'm not mistaken.
That was a good car.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
89 a month, if I'm not mistaken.
That was a good car, yeah, thefirst one was the second, sentra
was.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
That was yucky.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
So I think if we totaled out all of our debt, we
probably had roughly about$900,000 of student loan debt.
Probably Not student loan butlike of debt.
Yeah, debt in general, and wehad no clue about that.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Tell everybody why we're even talking about this,
because I don't even think weintroduced.
Why we're talking about all ofthis?
People just think oh, theyspilling the tea today, hunty.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Well, we spilling the tea today on purpose, because
this episode is money trapnumber four.
Right, Money trap number four,which is one of the reasons why
doctors get burnt out, why theyspend so much time working, why
they spend so much time doingthings or pulling themselves
away from what they really wantto do, which is, you know, work,
but they don't want to work allthe time and they want to spend
time with family.
So my trap number four is ishaving too much debt.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
That's a big deal.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
We talk about debt a lot in the show because it
played a major part in our lives.
It played a major part in wherewe live.
The page played a major part inour lives.
It played a major part in wherewe lived.
It played a major part in howwe practice.
It played a major part,possibly, if we could even start
a family right, because debt,debt played a major role in if
we were going to do IVF or notand how we're going to pay for
that and how we were going topay for that.
(07:19):
Yeah, yeah, so that wassomething that I think we were.
I think for me, debt in generalwas something that I was when I
, when we finally did all themathematics and had our first
meeting together, which to thisday, I I think it was very
contentious when we startedtalking about how we were you
always talking about that andI'm like it actually was not
that bad I was.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, it was not that bad me, you know, please, I've
been knowing you 20.
We have had way worse fightsthan that.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
For the friends who know us and are listening, you
know, to pray for us.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Y'all know how Nia Renee get down.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
You know you had to pray for us.
You know we made it, thoughwe're still trying.
But don't listen to Dr Renee.
It was beef.
It was beef.
Beef was an ICU.
Dr Rene, it was beef.
It was beef.
Beef was an ICU, guaranteed tobe ICU, All right.
So listen, All right.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Let's stop stalling and let's get into the meat and
potatoes.
The money trap number four thatkeeps doctors burnt out.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So, listen, guys, the reason why we brought this
example up is just to let youknow that we had a ton of
student loan debt.
We had a ton of consumer debt.
We had a mortgage.
We had a ton of student loandebt, we had a ton of consumer
debt, we had a mortgage.
We had a whole bunch ofdifferent things.
There's a lot of um debt thatwe all deal with that we, to the
most part, I think, wenormalize, we end up living with
.
You know, depending on whichfinancial guru you listen to,
(08:39):
they may say you look at it likea pet or you treat it like a
plant.
Um, and that was us and we went.
Possibly could have been us evenat this point, 10 years in,
right, like yeah well, you know,student loans are just part of
your life and you just pay itbased off of that coupon book
and you make those paymentsuntil you're maybe in your late
do they even send the couponbook anymore?
I don't know if they send acoupon book anymore.
(08:59):
Anybody who knows?
because we ain't got loansanymore, we ain't gotta deal
with that exactly but I'm surethey have a way to send stuff to
your house where listen?
They'll mail it to you and theywill find you right if they
don't get we will find youthey'll find you and they'll
send you that thick book thatyou gotta flip right yeah I
think it's it's really key toalso really quickly talk about.
(09:22):
One thing, though, is, even atthat point where we had all of
this debt, I felt like I didn'treally have a spending problem.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
No, remember we had that discussion.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
And I think people from the outside looking in
would be like yo y'all had aspending problem, because I
don't understand why you wouldget a $175,000 house, renee.
I don't know why you would have$18,000 in debt.
You also got a car payment, butI really felt like I didn't
have a spending problem.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I don't know about you.
No, I felt like I didn't have aspending problem either.
Right, like you know, I wasn'tsomebody who went out and just
spent just to spend.
Right, I spent on things that Ifelt, like you know were, for
the most part, necessities, youknow, for me, and that you know,
that doesn't mean that I didn'tgo out and, you know, go to
restaurants and things like that, but I was.
(10:07):
You know, I felt like I kept mymoney.
I kept my money close enough tome such that I got what I
needed, but the problem was thatI was probably overspending on
things that I actually needed,if that makes any sense, right,
like.
So I wasn't splurging like, oh,I want these jeans, I want
(10:28):
these shoes, I want this bag, Iwant this, whatever, it was
things that I needed, but Iwasn't very intentional about
how much money I was spending onthe things that I actually
needed, and I think that's whathappened was that I overspent on
those things.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, that's what happened was that I overspent on
those things.
Yeah, I, I just didn't do agood job of saving my money.
I'll just be honest with you.
With that, I just would justspend money.
And I didn't buy Jordans, Ididn't buy any of those things.
I didn't buy none of that stuff.
I just didn't know how to savemoney.
I wasn't paying attention to itand I was just hoping that I
got the next payment.
You know, two weeks later andyeah literally half of my
payment went to my mortgageanyway.
(11:04):
So that was that was a hugeissue for me, but um, so, real
quick, before we go on to ournext session, I want to.
I think something's reallyinteresting.
I found this.
This is from 2019.
This is where is it?
I think it's something thatpeople want that have the
(11:26):
highest amounts, or the studentsare graduating with the most
amount of student loan debt oh,it's crazy if this is your
school all right, let's start.
Number one this is from US Newsand Report, so you know they do
their research.
Number one school WesternUniversity of Health Sciences.
I think that's an osteopathicschool yes, that's an
osteopathic school yep tuitionin 2019 2020 was 59 000 dang.
(11:51):
The average indebtedness of thegraduates of 2019 295 000 wowza
second nova southeastern, Ithink that's the osteopathic
school.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, go, do go in state 54 is the first, is the
first two letters of dollars yoout of state 61 000 average in
deadness of 2019 grad 286 000.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
oh my god.
New york medical college that'san MD school.
That's an MD school.
$54,000.
$54,580.
Average indebtedness $258,000.
University of Illinois how isUniversity of Illinois that high
University of Illinois?
That's a public school, right,I thought so.
$46,000.
(12:41):
Out of state $93,000.
Wow, that's probably how.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
That's probably how I made the list.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, west Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine
$21,000 if you're in state,$52,000 if you're out of state.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
they really want you to come, they really want you to
, really want you to be in state.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, Rowan University School of Osteopathic
Medicine $41,000.
In-state, Out-of-state $66,000.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, they de-incentivize coming from
out-of-state.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
EVMS Eastern Virginia Medical School $32,000 in-house
out-of-state.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Not in-house.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Or in-state, you get what I'm saying.
And then Drexel University,ohio university, georgetown,
rounded up, but georgetown is atthe bottom at 232 000.
That is crazy.
So you're already starting offin the starting out behind the
eight ball.
Yeah, then if you're notcareful and you start going
through residency or you gothrough, you know, attending,
(13:42):
you're like I'm, you know, I'vebeen delaying this and I want to
get that and I I'm going tocustom.
That is like Chris Rock.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I'm a custom that is.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I'm a custom that is I want to get a Tesla, I want to
get an S5.
I want to get this nice car.
A yo, that debt yo is going tobuild up and it's going to come
after you, man.
So, that's something that Ithink people got to be careful.
And next, you know you find outthat your paycheck that you get
from whether it's residencydefinitely when you are an
(14:13):
attending you find out like halfof your check is going to pay,
is paying off your car payment,half of your check is paying off
all of these different thingsand you're like the second half
of your check you probably justtrying to catch up and try to
build savings, if that, ifyou've been thinking about that,
yeah, that's crazy.
Yeah, we were there, guys, sodon't think we making this up.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
We were there right, we were definitely there.
And you know, it's it kind oflike what you said, right,
you're catching up.
Literally it takes you, ittakes you two paychecks to be
able to pay for your necessities, right, and you know, sometimes
people are like, well, what'sthe problem?
Like, as long as you know themonth, as long as I could pay
for everything you know over themonth, it's like yeah, but how
(14:52):
much are you saving, how muchare you investing?
How much are you, you know,putting towards retirement?
because if it takes you huh,right, huh investing huh if it
takes you two paychecks to beable to pay your mortgage right,
Like if it takes one paycheckright and then two weeks, two
weeks later, half of that otherpaycheck to be able to pay your
(15:16):
mortgage alone, then the rest ofthat half of the second
paycheck.
Like you still got utilities topay, you still got other bills
that you need to pay.
It's like you literally aregoing to be living paycheck to
paycheck, so paycheck topaycheck.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I think in.
I think in terms of just likeaccruing things that are just
going to increase the amount ofdebt that you have.
I think my advice to people isI think the most important thing
is I understand that you'vedelayed.
Wherever you are at, if you'rein law school, med school,
(15:55):
nursing school, pa school,there's going to be a certain
amount of delaying gratificationthat you're going to get.
I get it.
The thing is is that, likeadding all of this stuff
together, you find out that wayyou did all of this sacrifice
just to get a paycheck so youcan pay off all this debt.
That's crazy, yeah.
So I think it's reallyimportant to understand.
(16:16):
A baseline thought process isis look, what do I desire versus
what do I need.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
And I think the real flex is trying to keep what you
desire as low as possible andreally focusing on what you need
.
I'm not saying like you have tolive a very minimalistic life
even though there's there'sthere's um, there's a lot to be
said about that.
And I think that a lot morepeople are starting to say look
like minimalistic.
Minimalism is where is that?
Right but I think most peoplewho look at minimalism look at
(16:47):
it as you're denying yourselfsomething right, which depending
on how you look at it.
You may be right, maybe wrong,but I do think that lusting
after things and, you know,purchasing things and going
after all these different things, maybe because you didn't get
in your 20s, is going to causesome problems when you're in
your 30s and 40s, you know yeahyeah, I mean, people want that
really nice lifestyle, right?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
I mean, that's the thing.
When you're a pre-med and youstart thinking about what life
is going to be like when you area physician, right, when you
finally cross over that finishline, you know, you have in your
head this picture of what itwas going to be like, what, what
you were going to be, thingsyou were going to have, things
(17:29):
you were going to be able to do,and now to get across the
finish line and then have to say, well, no, you know, erase that
picture, because you're notthere yet.
I think that's very hard forpeople.
That's a very harsh reality forpeople, and I think, honestly,
at that point they're just likenot even thinking about how that
(17:52):
picture is inaccurate incomparison to their income and
their debt.
Right, they don't look at theirdebt to income ratio.
All they can think about isthis is what I want my life to
be.
I finally have, you know, theauthority to make certain
decisions for myself, you knowit says MD right it says DO
(18:15):
exactly, and now I can do what Iwant and not to mention.
Not to mention that there isalso, I think, the societal
expectation that, oh you, adoctor, like how are you driving
a Pinto?
You know, how are you driving aPinto?
You?
Speaker 1 (18:29):
know what I mean.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
driving a Toyota Corolla.
How are you driving a ToyotaCorolla, right?
That's what we drive.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
We drive a Toyota Corolla, guys, just so y'all
know.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yes we do so.
You know, there's thatexpectation too, right?
I remember I pull up in my youknow 1991 Nissan Stanza and yes
you, I would valet that thing ifnecessary.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
That was not an attending.
You drove your Stanza untilresidency.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Well, when I was a resident, you didn't even finish
residency.
Hold on, hold on a second.
No, no, no, hold on.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Hold on, stop trying to act like five years ago you
was driving your 91 Stanza.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Hold on, stop playing .
But you got to understand.
People buy these things asresidents, right, people buy
these things as residents Buywhat as?
residents Buy cars, buy nicecars as residents, because now
they're making an income whereasthey never made an income
before.
You got to remember, somepeople's first job is doctor,
right, like, you go to highschool, you go to med school, or
(19:23):
, excuse me, you go to college,then you go to med school.
Your first job might actuallybe residency.
Your first job might actuallybe as a doctor, and so you're
making some money for the firsttime.
You have no clue, like, howmuch money is really this money?
Right, you don't know what itis.
They, you, oh, you're gonna getyou know fifty thousand dollars
(19:44):
.
Hey, you guys need to befollowing aldwin sumari.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
He is now.
He's a resident.
Now, right, yeah, he's aresident.
So aldwin sumari, uh, justgraduated from philadelphia
college of osteopathic medicinehe's on the atlanta georgia
campus and um has made a namefor himself on social media.
Very colorful guy, very, uh,great personality, um.
And now he's on social mediatalking about how, as a written,
(20:15):
as a medical student as amedical student, he was just
paying for everything rightwriting loans, all co-signing,
all this stuff, and now thathe's a resident, he finding out
like he put in all these crazyhours and he's still not getting
money.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I think he did the mathematics yeah, he's like it's
less than minimum wage.
Welcome to medicine yo, we gotto find that and put that in the
show, that post yeah, we gottaput that post in the show notes,
but uh, but yeah, I mean, soyou have to understand too,
right, like why you do that well, you to my point, then you go.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
But why people do that?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
But but rest in peace , tommy Ford.
But people do buy stuff inresidency right, and then it
just starts accumulating fromthere.
You bought a whole house inresidency right.
How many people people itdoesn't matter, but you had the
debt, and that's what we'retalking about today.
Right is people have too muchdebt for the amount of income
(21:13):
that they have and for theamount of debt that they already
have right.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
So before.
So before we'd be able to tellpeople get a used car, but the
used car because thesemiconductor, semiconductor um,
demand or supply is down.
A lot of these car companiescan't make these new cars with,
you know, the infotainmentsystems or you know you have a
tesla.
It's really hard to build thiscar.
The majority of the car is asemiconductor or just in general
(21:39):
.
Covet guys covert reallyhappened and there's a lot of
workers who weren't able to goback a lot of companies.
Covid really happened andthere's a lot of workers who
weren't able to go back.
A lot of companies that youknow.
The production line is just notthe same as it used to be, so
there's a big shortage of newcars out there.
So the used car market is goingup like crazy and, as a result,
(22:00):
a used car is just as expensive,if not more expensive, than an
MSRP.
So, the reason I'm bringingthis up.
What you said, too, is like ifyou are even looking for a used
car is just as expensive, if notmore expensive, than an MSRP.
So the reason I'm bringing thisup.
What you said, too, is like ifyou are even looking for a used
car now as a resident or even asa as an attending I got some
stats Hold on.
It says the average car paymentas a first quarter of 2022 is
averaging $648 a month Yo $648 amonth and then the average, the
(22:25):
average.
Basically, the average car loanterm is now 72 months 72 months
.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Hey, alfred, you know I don't want to do math.
Alfred, put the math right hereon the screen, please.
You asking Alfred to do themath now?
72 months, how many years isthat?
Hook it up.
Hook it up.
I don't know how many yearsthat is, you don't know how much
.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
72 months, yeah, that's six years.
Hello, I'm a doctor.
Now, you know, the wholekeeping up with the Joneses, you
(23:06):
know, really does stick withpeople and they and they're
trying to do that, even inresidency.
But then once they becomeattendings and that five figure
salary turns into a six figuresalary, I mean it can be really
detrimental to people's you know, to people's lifestyles.
So they think that theirlifestyle is about to get better
, but actually what's happeningis potentially it's getting
(23:27):
worse, because they realize theyhave more money but they don't
realize that the debt is stilltaking up a big chunk of that
money.
Nickel and diamond, right.
And then they're buying evenmore.
They're buying even more oncredit, right, they're buying
even more on credit.
So they're swiping their cards,you know.
They're getting a new car,they're buying a bigger home,
(23:51):
you know things like that, right.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So you know, and you got to be careful because some
people, you know, some peopletry to use the whole credit card
thing of well, I'm travelhacking or credit card hacking.
so right you know, I'm using mycredit card for all of these
home expenses or maybe theseexpenses when I'm on the road
and I'm getting these points,but you got to make sure that
you're paying that stuff at theend of the month, right?
So no interest is making,because that's they're able to.
(24:15):
That's how these credit cardcompanies are able to offer all
of these benefits, is there's?
a significant amount of peoplewho don't pay their monthly
balance.
The interest that they make offof that is how they're able to
provide all of these greatbenefits for everybody.
So if you pay that on time.
They're not making any moneyfor you off of you and they're
gonna actually hate your guts.
But you know you just gotta bereally careful.
(24:37):
So yeah you know, I, I thinkthat you know, I think that's
that's one secret that I think alot of folks don't tell people
when they make it to a certainpoint, which is, yeah, like the
more money you make, the moreproblems you have and the more
bills and debt that you readmore money, more problems you
(24:57):
got to be careful, no money,more problems.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
You know the other.
The other thing that we didn'tnecessarily mention is
co-signing, right, so a lot ofus may have co-signed loans, but
again, right, society, societybelieves oh you, big shot,
doctor now you doctor now.
Yo, doctor, now right.
And so people come to you andthey're like, hey, can you, can
(25:22):
you co-sign this particular loanfor me?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
You know, I'm good for it.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Exactly, people will ask you now that you're a
physician and you making allthis big time money, right, come
and co-sign for me.
And you know I have a nephew, Ilove him dearly.
He came to me, remember.
He came to me and was like ohTati, can you co-sign this loan
for me for this car?
I literally laughed out loud.
(25:48):
I was like I was like I don'tco-sign.
I was like I'm gonna tell youright now it's really nothing
against you, but I don't cosign.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Why don't you cosign?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
My sister cosigned for me.
I appreciated it, but she alsowent through the pain, right.
She also went through the painof watching me dodge, you know,
student loans, right.
And so I remembered that and Iwas like, yeah, I don't want
somebody to do that to me.
So I said, no, I don't co-sign.
(26:23):
What I can do is if I have themoney, I can give it to you.
You know, I can give you moneybut I am not going to co-sign.
So you know, we ended up givinghim a little something to put
towards a down payment for hiscar loan or whatever it was.
(26:44):
Yeah, we did, we gave himsomething you don't remember,
but we did.
We gave him something.
But no, no, we gave him.
I would not give him somethingwithout telling you it doesn't
make any sense.
But no, I don't co-sign,because when you co-sign
somebody, essentially whatyou're doing is you're adding
(27:04):
more debt to yourself.
You think it's not your debt,it is your debt, like that is
totally your debt, right Causethey would not be able to get it
were it not for your signatureon that paper.
So technically it is your debtand it does add to your debt, to
income ratio.
So you have to think about thatthat if you are co-signing for
(27:25):
people, you need to be really,really careful, because it can
affect your credit score.
It can affect your ability topay your own bills, especially
if this person is defaulting ontheir loans.
So you need to be really,really careful.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
So I think it's really important that we kind of
put a low key flex out there.
That we learned recently and Italked with our new CPA about
this he's gonna be featured on afuture episode which is, if you
get asked to co-sign or if youget asked constantly by certain
people to give money or tosupport family in some form or
(28:02):
fashion, particularly if youhave a side hustle or if you
have a side business, if you areworking locums and you're doing
independent contracting,whatever you may be doing, hire
that person Right.
Whatever you may be doing, hirethat person right and then loan
them or excuse me, give themmoney as a salary or give them
money like that so that itbecomes tax deductible right
that's one way, particularly ifyou have someone who who is
(28:24):
constantly asking you for money,right, right, so then you kind
of put them on salary and thenit becomes beneficial for you
yeah and then it becomesbeneficial for them yeah and
definitely.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Um, always have some sort of a contract.
Always have some sort of acontract as to if you're loaning
somebody some money and youexpect for that money to come
back, always come back.
Always do a contract for that,because that could be a very
contentious thing.
When someone says, no, you gaveme that money, it's like no, I
(28:57):
loaned you that money.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Here's another.
I watch a lot of Judge.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Judy y'all, here's another one too.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Here's another one too, for example, like your
nephew who wanted to get a car.
Another thing too is you canget a car put on toro or put it
on lyft.
So toro is like basicallyairbnb for your car.
Right, you use an app and youbasically rent out your car to
(29:25):
anybody.
I use toro whenever we go to adifferent town and I don't want
to just rent from avis or hertz.
I go to toro and I can rentlike a, a um, like a tesla, or
we could rent like a really nicecar, and if you look at all of
the fees that you're not payingbecause you're renting from an
airport, if you compare thosefeet the fees that you're not
paying by using Toro and you geta really nice car it comes out
(29:47):
to a little bit cheaper thanrenting from Avis or Hertz.
So you can put your car on thatand now anytime you use that
car for Toro, which is to rentit out, it becomes tax
deductible right.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
In other words, you're using your debt, you know
, as a source of income, right,like that's actually in and
that's what when they pay you,but when the person is supposed
to pay.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Right right, right to be paying you so they're paying
you back or they're paying back.
You know the the business thatpurchased the car, right?
So you're whatever businesspurchased the car and you're
letting him, him or her use it,but they're still paying you.
And if they can't pay you, thenworst case scenario, you put it
on toro and you make some moneyfrom that right.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
In other words, yeah, you use your.
You you're using your debt as asource of income.
Take the car back, yep Right,and that's the thing.
Right, that's really what debtis supposed to do for you.
It's supposed to be some sortof an investment, right?
That's why, a lot of times, wesay, oh well, if you buy a house
, it's an investment.
You know, your debt is reallysupposed to be an investment for
(30:52):
you, supposed to have some sortof return.
But we don't really look at itlike that, right?
I think most people don't lookat debt as something that is
supposed to be, you know, aninvested venture.
I think people look at debt aswell, you know it's a substitute
(31:12):
for cash and really shouldn'tbe that.
So I think we should talk about, you know, ignoring those
student loan debt, that studentloan debt and pretty much the
you know the effects that it canhave, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
On on doctors in particular.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Say again you talk about going on autopilot, yeah,
going on autopilot, yeah goingon autopilot, ignoring it,
ignoring the things thatpotentially could help people
decrease their debt even faster.
Those are the things that Ithink definitely keep people
burnt out.
Right, you keep thinking aboutthis debt and you keep like,
(31:53):
just, I think Dr lucy, dr lucyhad mentioned, you know how she
basically had a full-blown likepanic attack just thinking about
the debt, right, like that wasepisode 285, right, and she just
had a whole full-blown panicattack.
And I think that she's notalone.
I don't know that people havefull-blown panic attacks, but do
(32:14):
think that people you know sitwith the debt and it sees, you
know, and a lot of people don'tknow what to do.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
They're not sure what to do, Right, and as a result,
they decide well, I'm just goingto follow the plan that the
company put out for me.
I'll follow the coupon book orfollow whatever happens in my
email.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, and or I'll dodge it.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
A lot of people don't know that there's so many
different things that you can doto really kind of decrease one,
the total amount that you'regoing to pay, to maybe decrease
the interest rate on it or threedecrease just automatic
payments, which is good.
I think there's so much morethat you can do, you know and
I'm going to put in the link,but there's a a really good
(33:05):
article from studentloanherocom.
If you go to studentloanherocomand you go to the links, that's
in the show notes there's astudent loan repayment guide for
doctors.
There's also one for otherprofessionals also and it talks
about all of the differentthings that you can do, One
being refinancing your loansright.
So if your loan interest rateis at a certain rate, like you
(33:27):
go to a company and they willbuy your loan and then offer you
a lower interest rate,hopefully right.
There's also just understandingthat maybe you need to get into
the public service loanforgiveness plan right when you
know, for a certain amount ofyears and a certain amount of
payments that you're going tomake.
After that you know thegovernment is going to relieve
(33:49):
or it's going to forgive thosepayments.
Those are something to considerA lot of people right now who
are struggling.
Right now, interest rates aregoing high may not even be in
the six-figure range and you'rewondering how am I going to make
my student loan payments right?
there's income-based repaymentright, so there's like all of
these different things that areout there that we can consider.
We talked about it, you know,with, uh, with travis hornsby in
(34:11):
290 that was episode, episode 2.
299 that everybody needs to gotake a listen to that.
There's just multiple ways thatyou could skin a cat to make
sure that your loans are waymore efficient and that you're,
for the most part, your studentloan debt is way more efficient.
You can do the same thing withyour, with your, with your debt.
There's like high, you knowyour high interest rate debt.
(34:31):
You can a lot of peoplerefinance those also yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I mean.
Another thing that you couldpotentially do is when you are
looking for a job right whenyou're looking for a job, one of
the things that you cannegotiate is student loan
repayment.
You actually did that, um, youknow, and negotiated some
student loan repayment, you know, for your job.
You know where we should havewent harder yeah, you should
(34:57):
have gone harder.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
I had ten thousand dollars every year would go
towards my student loans yeah,that was ten thousand dollars,
like before tax right.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
so, but I mean, I think that that's really
important.
You know, we're partnering withst john associates, um, and
they're a staffing, they're astaffing company.
They do a staffing company.
They do mostly permanent.
Actually, they don't do anylocums, they do permanent
staffing, right, and so this isone of the things that you know.
If you were to go with astaffing agency, that, yeah,
(35:27):
you're going to want to ask, youknow, hey, or you're going to
want to present, as I saidbefore, right in a previous
episode, you're going to want topresent that as a potential
condition of you working at thatparticular job in St John.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Let's just be real.
Let's be real Like if you areworking with St John or if
you're working with any staffingcompany like you need to be
telling people.
Listen.
I got student loans.
What can you do to help?
Speaker 2 (35:55):
me with that.
From a company standpoint,that's what I would say
absolutely it's like.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
It's like, you know.
We have Cedric.
You know Dr Cedric who runspolicy prescriptions.
Remember he was like like thewhole notion of going to medical
school or going to collegenowadays, you know, depending on
where you come from like youreally shouldn't have to pay
that much, right like you right.
You may not necessarily need togo to like the big time schools,
but there are plenty of schoolsthat want you there.
And it's the same thing withthese hospitals.
Like, it's like yo for real,for real.
(36:20):
Like, if you've got a lot ofstudent loan debt, you need to
be negotiating that in yourcontract.
Asa, I would do that more thanthe salary, I don't care.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
And when you have a company,you know the new kids on the
block, right?
St John Associates has beendoing this for well over 30
years.
I mean their experience, right.
Like they, they can definitelyhelp walk you through what you
need to be presenting to.
You know, whatever new hospitalthat you're going to be going
to think about.
(36:51):
The income also, right, becausewe talked about, yeah, you're
going to be getting a six-figureincome, but every six-figure
income is not, you know, is notmade equal, right?
So what does that mean for you?
You know.
So if they're touting, oh well,you know you're going to get
$350K.
You know, working as whateverspecialty you're in, because
(37:14):
they do all specialties.
Their forte is ortho, but theydo work with all specialties.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
But is that know how to replace potassium here we go
again, here we go again.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
So if you do know how to replace potassium, okay,
which means you would not be anortho doc, you could still
actually work with St Johnassociates, because they could
place you too, because, sincethey do all specialties, okay,
is that better for you knee?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
But anyway, you know, at least know how to use their
electrolyte replacement guide.
Okay, it's fine, it's okay, it'sokay.
They're not going to learn.
Just get, just get over it.
They're not going to learn.
I'm gonna just answer Orthosare not going to learn.
Babe, I'm sorry, just get overit.
But think about the salary thatyou're making.
We kind of talked about this inthe previous, the previous
(38:06):
money trap with the income youhave to negotiate right.
Part of negotiating your incomeis actually thinking about how
much debt you have you know whatI mean.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that that's what I think
.
That's one thing that I thinkwe can do a better job of is
letting people know that money,or money can look, how you get
paid, looks different than justa salary, right.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Like it's not just a straight salary of them giving
you money Right Like, right,like it could be a benefit,
right like you know pay time off.
It could be CME.
Some hospitals give you likeright like $20,000 in CME I'm
using that as an exaggerationbut like, yeah, your salary may
be like median with everybodyelse or maybe a little bit lower
depending on where you're at,but if you have really great
(38:51):
benefits, then like it mayoutweigh having a nice salary.
So, if there's a way that youcan say hey, you know what, I
don't want to sign on bonusRight.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Right.
Don't want to sign on Right.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
I just want you to take care of my, my student
loans, right.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Cause the reason.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I don't like sign on bonuses is because, more often
than not, sign on bonuses aresign on loans.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Right, that's usually what it is, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Golden handc handcuffs, and you got to be
there for three or five years.
So I'm like, right, just giveme, you know, 10k or 15k or 20k
or even more than that everyyear towards my student loan for
every year that I'm here.
That's it, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
So I agree with you there yeah, and then, and then I
obviously look see, you knowhow that staffing company is
getting paid, right, becausethat's another thing, right?
So St John Associates, theyonly get paid if there's a match
.
There's no match, you don't getpaid.
You know they don't get paid,right?
So if you don't get paid, theydon't get paid, which is really
(39:52):
good.
If you don't get paid, theydon't get paid, which is really
good.
So you know, check them out.
They're at stjohnjobscom.
Slash docs okay.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
We'll put that in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
But check them out.
They do a great job.
They don't put your CV all overthe place.
We kind of beat that horse todeath in a couple of episodes
before this one.
But yeah, I think you knowpeople don't realize the amount
of damage that not paying debtcan do, right, Whether it's
student loan, debt.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
So I was actually going to ask you about that.
Let's pivot real quick.
Yeah, I get what you're sayingthere, and I think we kind of
talked about that.
Let's pivot to talk about.
let's talk about this in adifferent way, so that we can
kind of just do you think if youwere to do this again?
You're 10 years out now.
Right, we finished in 2017.
We're now like what?
Almost five years, uh, payingoff all of our student loan debt
(40:46):
, right, probably like fouryears, three years now from
paying everything off, right?
So if you could do it again,would you pay off your debt off
early, or would you take a moremodest approach to paying off
your debt?
If no one?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
would you still knew?
Speaker 1 (41:05):
back then, knowing what you still knew back then
knowing what I still.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
But I didn't know anything, and that was the
problem right, like you know now, know what you don't know okay
that that makes more sense right, knowing what I know now,
knowing what I know now, Iprobably for you, whatever
anyway.
But I mean you're asking me ifI knew, then I'm like if I knew
what I knew, then then I woulddo the same thing regardless
anyway, so the question so,knowing what I know now, I
(41:33):
probably still I probably stillwould have paid it off quickly.
Why Right?
Because when I figured, when Ifigured out what, what I, when I
figured out what the impact wasfor me right, when I, when I, I
think what happens is whenpeople like me and like you
(41:54):
realize what the impact is, thenwe want that monkey off our
backs, right?
So the impact of not payingyour debt is having this anxiety
, right, this anxiety of havingthis debt that you owe somebody
and you just don't want to haveit.
Not everybody has that feeling,right?
Some people are just fine withhaving debt.
(42:15):
You and I are just not thosepeople.
I don't like knowing that I owepeople.
The other thing is, you know,getting deeper in debt and
knowing that, okay, if I eitherdefer or forbear, or even if I'm
paying it off right, even if Iam paying it off, I'm still
paying more than if I would havejust paid it off all at once.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Well, the whole thought process Right.
The opposite is well.
Knowing what you know now, forexample, would you have been as
aggressive on the federal part,like I definitely understand the
private part?
I think I would have been theprivate part for everybody who
is listening.
I don't know why we all say foreveryone.
Of course people are listeningfor folks that are listening,
(43:04):
put it on there.
Or the opposite way for thefolks that are listening our
private loans were like anywherebetween like nine to like 13%
yeah, and it came out to a totalof 180 000.
Yeah about then we had privateand then we had federal loans
all together that was obviouslylike 530 000, that was like 2.2
(43:28):
percent to like 2.3 percentyou're pointing in the same
direction right, so that's whereI want them to put the oh,
that's where you wanted to putit yeah, put the numbers.
Oh, that's where you want themto put it.
Yeah, put the numbers there.
Hook it up, alfred.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Can I fit?
Do I give you enough space?
But anyway Do you need somemore work.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
So the question is I get that you would take the
private loans off first becausethey were at a very high
interest rate.
They were higher than what mostpeople say, like the big part
in the road is like five to sixpercent.
If you have interest rate thatis more than five to six percent
, then you should pay it off.
If you have interest that'sless than that, then maybe you
should invest, right, um, orcertainly you shouldn't pay it
(44:03):
off, you should invest, as.
So the question is would youstill?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I think I still would have, because that anxiety for
me of owing somebody was justthat much, you know.
And then, and then the otherthing is, you know, like your
credit score, right, your creditscore continues to suffer,
right, you can't build up yourcredit score the way that you
(44:30):
would necessarily want to, atleast not as fast as you would
want to, because your debt toincome ratio is just that much,
is just that much and for me,like you know, I'm not a person
who, I'm not a person who caresso much about my credit score,
but for, for those people who do, I think that that's something
(44:51):
you know to think about, right,like, how quickly can you, you,
you know, re recoup that creditscore?
Speaker 1 (44:58):
I think, for me, the thing that I thought about the
most was I didn't feel free likeI didn't feel free to like move
from job to job to job to job,because I felt like well, like I
didn't have the time to lose ajob because or leave and go to
another job and who really wantsto do that?
but like I just kind of felt,like I was like wait, like the
(45:20):
reason I became a doctor isbecause I wanted to kind of just
do my own thing and like be myown boss.
And you combine that with likelike medicine is really not like
that at all right, like it'sright it's really not.
Yeah, you're employed, or youwork in this type of employed
model, and then you throw, throwon top of that.
It's like well, the number onething is if I lose my job, how
am I gonna pay my loans?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
As opposed to thinking about Right, but that's
part of the anxiety.
Right Of owing somebody Right,but I'm just saying my story.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
That's what I was thinking of.
And I think for me it wasreally more like yeah, I don't
know if, or, excuse me, I don'twant to know if I want to stay
at this place more than threeyears.
I don't know if I want to livein this part of the world or
this part of the country forthis?
Like, what if I want to dosomething different?
Right, and I think that when Iwas, you know, when we found out
about PSLF, obviously we didn'tqualify for it, right, because
(46:07):
it was after when we graduated,right, you know, I would talk to
some people.
I'm like yo, you want to be atthis place for 10 years.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Right, I get it and it's smart, but I'm like damn, I
don't know if I want to be inone place.
But you don't have to be in oneplace.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Yeah, you don't actually have to be in one place
for 10 years, but you got toguarantee that you're going to
be at a nonprofit, which mosthospitals are nonprofit Most
hospitals are.
But I mean Right, like if youdecide that you want to join a
practice huh 501C practice, orsomething.
Well, I mean, I don't know howmany you know nonprofit
(46:42):
practices, you know privatepractices there are out there,
but you know you, you would haveto forego maybe something that
you feel is an opportunity justto do that.
But for some people that's fine, right, fine right.
For some people, you know thatthat's really fine.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Um the other thing was well, let me just finish.
I just think that I I think alot of professionals, low-key
don't value how much debt,whatever it may be, makes you
make certain decisions.
That oh yeah kind of subliminalie what specialty you're going
(47:20):
to choose, ie what part of thecountry you're going to live, ie
what kind of BS you're going toput up with at work and it,
low-key, makes those decisionsfor you.
You have no clue that you'remaking decisions because of how
much debt you got.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Exactly.
And then, not to mention thefact that a lot of professionals
don't even appropriately managetheir money.
They're not budgeting right, soyou end up with late payments.
You end up with, you know,getting deeper into debt because
of those late payments.
You know, again, your creditscore suffers Like you have all
(47:56):
of this big snowball effect ofthings that is happening, and
then that you know thatcondition that you're living in,
you know, then makes it harderfor you to even say no, like I
don't want to work here anymoreor no, I don't want to do this
extra thing that the hospital'sasked me to do, you know.
And I don't want to put my jobin jeopardy though, so I guess
(48:19):
I'm just going to have to do it,you know.
And so for me, I think, knowingwhat I know now, yeah, I think
I would still have paid it offvery quickly, because I just
don't like the anxiety thatcomes with owing somebody,
because that anxiety of owingsomeone comes with all these
other little branches ofconsequences, like you just
(48:42):
mentioned, and I don't want tohave to deal with that um, if I
could do it again, I I think Iwouldn't.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
I would do it the same way, but I wouldn't do it
with as much of a scarcitymindset as I did.
Right, because I think what'sthat mean?
That means that basically thismoney is not coming Like.
It's going to be hard to getthis money Right.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Like it's very like you become very not selfish with
the money, but you feel likegetting that money is hard to
get.
So, as a result, you becomevery neurotic about the money.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Right, okay, and.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
I think after a while I was getting very neurotic
about the money, okay.
And I think after a while I wasgetting very neurotic, okay,
where's this next set of moneygoing to come?
We have to continue makingthese payments towards the
student loans.
So as a result like you justbecome very, more type A and I
was becoming very type A aboutmaking sure that you know I did
extra work, like we talk about.
You know doing locums Duringthis time.
(49:38):
You know, those three years,what was I doing?
I was an employed doc and thenthe other two weeks I would take
locums jobs and I would workthat and that's what we would
use to pay your IVF right or payfor.
IVF treatments right and likenothing was going to happen
unless we.
We worked those shifts.
It was just very rigid and Ijust say, from a standpoint of
when you finish, that it's hardto turn that off.
(49:59):
Right, it's really hard to turnthat off and sometimes that
scarcity mindset well, I meanfor you.
It was but that.
Who am I speaking for?
it is my is your, is your voicespeaking or my voice, speaking
right like well, I'm just sayingfor you, it was right so I just
I think that that's one of mythings that I look back, I'm
like it's good to pay off thatdebt, but I think I could have
(50:21):
done a little bit differentlywith less heartache and stuff.
Um, maybe not three, maybe fouryears possibly, who knows?
Speaker 2 (50:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
But either way, I I definitely think that, um, you
know, we kind of beat this horsedown, that we were talking
about how, like, the big trap isjust kind of making sure that
you know, a significant portionof what you bring in is not
going towards, you know.
Consumer debt right carpayments, house like trying to
afford everything and keep upwith the joneses you got to
start keeping that money foryourself and just really
understanding.
(50:49):
I think the big thing for me isjust really understanding what I
desire, what I want versus whatI need that was a game changer
for me and, um, I think knowwhen people start to really
understand.
Okay, hold on a second.
If I can't pay cash for it,then if I can't, I can't afford
it.
I can't afford it.
Or if I can't pay cash, if I'mgoing to use my credit card to
do it and I have a means ofpaying this back by the end of
(51:11):
the week or to make sure thatI'm not going over and and
getting interest charges on it,then I can't afford it, right,
because I right look, we got tobe realistic.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Some people do that right they buy it with their
credit card and then they pay itoff before then they pay it off
, yeah, absolutely, just to getthe perks of the credit card and
that's fine, you know.
If you're organized enough todo that, um, then great.
If you, like me, you probablydon't want to do that because
you will be paying interest, youknow.
And then the other thing thatwe didn't talk about speaking of
(51:40):
, like missing payments andthings like that don't forget
like, if you miss enoughpayments and go into a into
default right, whether it'sfederal or depending, or if you
know, if you have a private loan, it may, you know, the terms of
default may differ, um, but ifyou have a private loan, the
terms of default may differ.
But if you go into default, theywill come after your money.
(52:03):
The IRS has a way of gettingpaid.
You will get garnished.
At the extreme, you will getgarnished and then now you
really won't have any controlwhatsoever over how much money
is going to You're paying childsupport to sally may, right,
exactly, exactly, they got us inyour rage is one thing that I
think exactly.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
And you still can't see your kids I think one thing
that a lot of people don't thinkabout is they always talk about
well, if I keep my studentloans as a tax, you know break,
well, that's actually amisconception.
All these things that I'mtaking guys, I'm getting these
from different uh, uh, you knowarticles that, uh, that I found
I'll put it in a show notes, butbasically it says the tax
deduction for your student loansis limited to $25,000 of
(52:45):
student loan interest you pay.
It also begins to phase out whenyour income reaches $70,000,
right so you're getting close tothat If you're a resident
you're right, your chief year or?
Maybe if you're in your like,really like advanced level of
fellowship and is eliminated andadjusted gross income and AGI
of $85,000 or 140,000 and$170,000 respectively, if you
(53:08):
file a joint return.
So I just want people to knowthat listen, that that whole
notion of, well, I'm going tokeep the student loans as a tax
break, hey, that's not, reallyit's not yeah, that might not
necessarily apply.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Right, we can't say that it absolutely won't, but it
might not necessarily apply.
You know, and this is where youknow, this is where I think, if
you don't have enough time tolook up all the things that you
could potentially do in order todecrease your debt burden,
whether that's student loan,debt or any other debt, that's
(53:42):
where it might be worth it foryou to talk to.
You know, a professional right.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Someone who can help you out there.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Exactly Someone who can help you to make a plan for
this debt, or you, you know,figure out how you can construct
this debt such that it's not asmuch of a burden as it
currently might be to you, and Ithink that that's really
important.
I think, as doctors, residentsand full attendings like I don't
(54:11):
necessarily think that we havethe time to sit down and just,
you know, comb througheverything and figure out, you
know, how we're going todecrease our debt burden, so you
know the money that you mightpay a professional to do it.
You know it might be a littlebit annoying, but in the long
run, it might actually save youa lot of time, a lot of energy
(54:32):
and a lot of pain so, and theyknow about things that you may
not know about, so right we hadtravis horsby on.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
He was episode 2.
He's one of those professionalsout there.
Make sure you mention docsoutside the box.
You get a really nice bonus.
Um, so you know, we makingthings happen here with you know
, teaming up and and partneringup with, uh, folks as well as
companies that we think aregoing to benefit you as a
professional, as a student, youknow, as a resident.
(54:59):
So make sure you guys check outthese and support these people
who are in the show notes, aswell as on our affiliates and so
forth.
So listen, renee, let's wrapthis up.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Let's wrap it up.
Let's wrap it up yo, because wegot to go.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
So what's the parting words you want to say for folks
on this episode?
Speaker 2 (55:18):
I think the parting words for me is don't ignore
your student loan debt, don'tignore any debt that you have.
You know, try to keep, try tobe very intentional about either
whatever debt you currentlyhave or any debt that presents
itself that you couldpotentially get into right.
And so don't just think about Iwant it, I want it.
(55:41):
I want it because debt is not asubstitute for cash.
Right, credit is not cash.
Credit comes with interest andyou know, if you start to treat
credit like cash other than just, you know, paying off your
credit card, you know, withinthe 30 day, whatever window, if
(56:02):
you start to treat credit likecash, then you're going to be,
you're going to be stuck for avery long time.
So just be mindful.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
I love it, it's great .
Why don't we leave it at that?
I think I'll keep mine reallyshort and simple and just be
like hey, guys, you know youwant to make sure that all of
the investment, all of thesacrifice that you put in, you
know, years ago, maybe evendecades ago, is really going to
show its fruits.
You don't want to mortgage thatliterally because you have so
much debt.
(56:31):
You have all of these differentthings that you're paying for.
You're not able to reallyinvest it in yourself, which is
health and wealth.
You have all of these differentthings that you're paying for
and you're not able to reallyinvest it in yourself, which is
health and wealth, and I thinkthat that's that's where it's
supposed to be at.
Your physical health as well as,you know, your mental health.
That's the most important thing.
So listen, guys, we are goingto end this episode.
Remember, if you want to get incontact with us, if you want to
let us know what you thinkabout the show, if you go to the
(57:01):
show notes, you will see thatthere is a link for a survey
right within crowd.
Make sure you check that out.
It's also an opportunity foryou to make some money with your
medical expertise, so check outin crowd.
We have a great partnership withthem.
And then if you want to followus on Instagram, it's dr knee
Darko.
That's where you can find outall of some of our clips, some
of the things on our episodepreviews on up as upcoming shows
that are coming up.
If you want to find out and seewhat's on our website, check us
(57:23):
out at drkneedarcocom.
Or if you want to email us,email us at team at
drkneedarcocom.
Let us know what's up, let usknow what's good and we'll be
sure to get in contact with you.
Dr renee, why?
Why don't you tell them?
Speaker 2 (57:36):
I got one more thing.
I got one more thing to say Um,we have a casting call, um for
residents and fellows,preferably those who are maybe
one year out from graduating orin their year of graduation, um,
so look for that um at DrNidarko, or actually look for
that at Dr Nidark.
Need darko on instagram, um,and also, if you haven't signed
(58:01):
up for our newsletter, you cando that on the website, um, and
that will also um get you to uhthe casting call.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
I'll send out an email about that, but I'm so
proud.
Look at that everyone.
You see how we growing here atdocs outside the box.
Maybe it was just me struggling.
Speaker 2 (58:16):
We're using a little scrub.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
Trying to make things happen.
Now we got Dr Renee, we gotCarla, we got Alfred, we got
Christian.
We got all these people up inhere.
I'm not giving their last namesbecause I want nobody trying to
steal them from me.
We got all these people here,man, considering you say.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
Christian Perry at the end of this, at the end of
every episode.
I think they already know whoChristian is.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
But listen, guys, we got to get going, we got to pay
the bills.
Guys, we will catch you all onthe next episode of Docs Outside
the Box.
Remember this is a fusion ofmoney, medicine and pop culture.
We appreciate y'all.
Speaker 2 (58:52):
Catch you on the next one.
Speaker 1 (58:54):
Peace.
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