June 10, 2025 • 45 mins
SEND US A TEXT MESSAGE!!! Let Drs. Nii & Renee know what you think about the show!
Things to expect in this episode:
- We’re in Denver, CO at the AACOM Educating Leaders Conference! We talk about our responses during the first-ever panel dedicated to Dr. Meta Christy, the first Black Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine.
- We’re partnering with locumstory.com on a special campaign this year. We give you a brief rundown of the common questions that are answered on their platform.
- Dr. Renée recaps her answer on the panel about what medical school leaders need to know about pre-meds.
- Dr. Nii rounds it out with his response to “what’s the biggest issue facing docs financially?”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Did you know Locum's Docs make, on average, 33% more
than employed docs?
Got your attention now.
So if you're considering Locumtenants, either full-time or on
the side, you probably have aquestion or two, or maybe even
20.
Locumstorycom is packed withunbiased information and tools
(00:22):
to see what the trends are inyour specialty and even make a
decision if locums is right foryou.
My advice make locumstorycomthe go-to place to learn more
about locum tenants.
That's locumstorycom.
What's good everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofDocs Outside the Box.
(00:43):
I'm the host, dr Neem, joinedby Dr Renee.
Hey, so listen, if you can tellby the background, there's some
background noise.
If you're watching on YouTube,shout out to everybody who's
watching us on YouTube.
You can see that we're in adifferent environment.
We've got people walking aroundhustling and bustling in the
background, so we're not at home.
It's called a conference.
It's called a conference,that's right.
(01:03):
Hey, everybody, we are at theAACOM, the American Association
of Colleges of OsteopathicMedicine.
They're having their EducatingLeaders Annual Conference.
We were part of the first everMetta Christie panel.
If you don't know, mettaChristie DO is the first
(01:24):
African-American osteopathicgraduate in the United States
and we were on this panelyesterday for about an hour.
It was me and you, as well astwo osteopathic medical students
, and we were talking aboutdiversity, equity and inclusion
those type of topics Moderatedby the Dr Barbara Ross Lee.
(01:44):
She's an icon in osteopathicmedicine for so many different
reasons, but it was really dopeto be on that panel.
We didn't get a chance torecord it, so we wanted to kind
of talk a little bit about thaton this episode.
But before we jump into that, Ithink the most important thing
is, you know, in the lastepisode we talked about what it
(02:04):
was like to travel, what it'slike to, you know, kind of be in
part of these events.
And I think one of the personswho got us onto this panel, dr
Jason Walker, phd.
Dr Jason Walker, he's a PhD at.
He's at PCOM, he's at PCOM,south Georgia and one of the
funny thing he said to me, he'slike Dr Darko.
He's talking to me, dr Darko,like I'm surprised you were able
(02:25):
to make this event becauseyou're working all the time.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
He's a, you know, hardest working man in America.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Working all the time and, as a result, like you can't
I'm.
It's very rare that I'm able togo to these events.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
You normally go to your events.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
This is your bag, this is what you're good at.
And then it started thinking tome.
(03:00):
I was like, I started thinkingI was like man, like it's true,
and, to be really honest, one ofthe ways that I've been able to
start plugging myself back inis by really controlling my
schedule, knowing exactly whenI'm going working locums, I
think.
I think that works for me.
I think if I was employed, Iwould not be able to go to as
many conferences as we haveslated for this year.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, let me tell you , as your business manager, I
have definitely put a number ofconferences on your schedule.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah.
So the way how it works is is,as a locums, I'm an independent
contractor with a hospital justlike how you would hire a
plumber and you work with aplumber, Plumber tells you when
he can work or when she can work, and then that's it.
Yeah Right, there's no salary,there's no benefits, it's just a
straight fee and then with thatfee, you're supposed to be able
to do and purchase what youneed to do, which may be you
(03:40):
know Pl, you know plumbing,plumbing, or which may be you
know like a 401k or which may bein health insurance and so
forth.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So you know, yeah, yeah, I mean.
So, as I said, you know youdefinitely, this year um are
going to have a number ofconferences that we're going to
be plugging you into.
Um, part of the reason thatactually you're going to have a
much busier schedule in generalthis year is because we are
doing something a little bitdifferent.
So, did you know?
(04:13):
Did you know that we're doingsomething different?
No, you know, you're justplaying around.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
No, I really don't know what you're even getting at
.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Well, we're going to be doing something a little bit
different.
We have a couple of campaignsupcoming this year for Docs
Outside the Box, and it's goingto require that we do a little
bit more travel, hopefullytaking this podcast on the road,
like we're taking right now,and one of the places that we're
(04:41):
going to be partnered up withis actually LocumStory.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, that's where I'm going with it.
So now you know.
Now I know where you're going.
Okay, so that's why I remainthe host.
Okay, Because you don't knowhow to lead people in at all.
Really so guys, we're doingthings a little bit differently
here.
Right, we are partnering upwith LocumStory, okay, and they
are literally the onlineresource for everything you
wanted to know about locums.
I'm telling you right now.
So, when I first started doinglocums in 2012, my resource was
(05:09):
you yeah, because you were doinglocums at the time, and that's
why.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I'm the business manager.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Right.
So if you go to locumstorycomright now, literally it is the
best way I can say is it'sreally unbiased information.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Like it's.
Trust me, as someone who's donelocums for 10 years, the
information is very unbiased.
You have the opportunity toreally compare different locums
agencies, which is huge right.
What do they offer?
What are the type of rates,based off of the type of
specialties that?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
you're looking at.
That's really cold.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Because you know there's one thing to say hey, I
want to do locums, but if youdon't know what the rates are,
and then, if you don't know whatthe rates are between companies
, yo, what are we talking abouthere?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So, yeah, no, that's really good.
That locum story does that,because one of the main
questions that we get wheneverpeople ask us about locums is
well, how much should I becharging?
What should my rates be?
So the fact that they even havethat information is ridiculous.
So even if you remember how youfound out you should be
charging, oh my God.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
You want to talk about that real quick.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, so I found out that I I found out how I was
being paid and how much I wasbeing paid and how much the
locums agency I was working withat the time was being paid,
because someone didn't realizethat they were not supposed to
cc me on an email.
One of the administrators at ahospital cc'd me on an email um
(06:29):
to the locums company and heoutlined all of the rates and I
was like, wait, what I was likeI'm not getting even half of
this.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah so, basically the rate that the locums company
quoted to you, that's what youwere getting paid.
When you saw the email, theemail showed exactly the total
amount that the locums companywas charging the hospital and
you found out that you were likepennies on a dollar compared to
what they were paying you yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, so I mean it's, you know, it's the.
The platform locum story is areally good way to just kind of
compare the rates you know thatyou're getting.
But the other thing is a lot ofthe questions that we get also
is okay, well, will I be able tocontrol my schedule?
Obviously, we just answeredthat.
Obviously the answer is yes,but can I do locums if?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I have kids, unless you give up that power like I
did.
So I told you when I firststarted working locums, I gave
my the person who handles mefrom a locum standpoint.
So when you guys work with acompany, there's going to be
someone who you work withspecifically.
I gave my schedule to him toarrange my gigs basically, and
there was one time whereactually there was a couple of
(07:35):
times where I would finishworking, I'd finish doing a
24-hour shift and then I woulddrive two hours away to another
place and start working thatsame day.
Oh my God, and it didn't clickto me that dude like this guy's
running you ragged and youdidn't have to do that.
You control your schedule,right.
But I just I didn't know how tolike, I didn't know how to take
charge of that.
I didn't know I could takecharge back then.
(07:55):
So, that's just a little bit ofexample of yeah, you can control
your schedule.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Right, but you have to be very intentional about it.
And then the other questionthat people often ask us, you
know, is can you do locums whenyou have kids?
And then the other questionthat I think people don't even
think about can you do locumsinternationally?
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
And we talked about that a little bit in a previous
episode.
When you went to Ghana andthings like that, you weren't
doing locums in Ghana, obviously, but you said that.
You said that a number ofdoctors work locums while
they're in Ghana.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean so.
We know people who.
There's gigs in the MarshallIslands, there's gigs in Guam,
there's gigs in just New Zealand.
So listen, folks, you don'thave to do things one way.
There's multiple ways you canskin a cat and I think that
locumstorycomcom they do areally good job of making sure
that you understand the entirescope of what to expect as a
(08:51):
locum's doc yeah I think they doit the best out of anybody yeah
like I said, I wish thisresource was there when I was
there, or at least you knewabout it, because it probably
did exist already.
No, I spoke to them, it did notexist back then, then oh wow I
do my research.
I do my research.
It was not there back in 2011,2012.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So, listen, I mean, yeah, it's good, and we're also
going to be partnering with themon a special campaign to
essentially show our audienceexactly what it takes.
How do you go through getting alocums gig.
So stay tuned for that.
But the link link, the link tolocumstorycom is going to be in
the show notes um so listen guys, come on.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Y'all can't figure that out.
It's locumstorycom.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Come on now it is, but there's a special link for
us, so that they know that theycame from locumstorycom, so
locumstorycom.
Come on, guys, let's say hardno, no, but they got to use the
special link to let them knowthat it came from Docs Outside
the Box.
That's true, yeah, so if youlove Docs Outside the Box and
you want LocumStory to know thatyou went to their website
(09:53):
because of Docs Outside the Boxand we don't get anything from
you clicking the link, so youcan just go ahead and click the
link.
We just get the satisfaction ofknowing that we are sending
people over to locumstorycom.
Then, yeah, click the link inthe show notes.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Links are always in the show notes and also, if
you're watching on YouTube, it'sin the show description.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Make sure you check that out.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So let's jump into how Locums allows us to be here.
So we've kind of settled thatLocums thing already.
So now that we are here inDenver at the AACOM Educating
Leaders Conference, we're makingthis work.
So why were we invited here?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Well, actually we were invited because Dr Jason
Walker thought about us, right?
So he, you know he's a part ofthe.
I think it's called a committeeoh gosh, it's called the
Committee on Diversity andEquity that the AAMC has, and
(10:49):
we've known Dr Jason Walker forsome time because he used to
work at our alma mater yeah, KCU.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Shout out to KCU.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yep, you're not sponsoring this show.
Think about that, oh mygoodness.
But yeah, so we've been incontact with Dr Walker for a
while.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
You need to move over a little bit into the camera
more, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Act like you potted before Talking to the audience,
about just the importance ofdiversity, equity, inclusion,
belonging justice something thatthe AACOM is really dedicated
to and trying to make sure thatthey address in terms of being
(11:39):
able to create the nextgeneration of DOs.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I think for me what I got from Dr Jason Walker is the
reason he wanted us on there isbecause we kind of walk it and
talk it.
Yeah, right, and I thinksometimes, when you can get too
academic, that's your bag.
When you can get too academicwith certain talks, you have all
of these great ideas or all ofthese great, you figure out the
problem, but you don'tnecessarily have solutions that
(12:04):
actually work.
And I think him having twopracticing physicians on their
married couple.
African American or, excuse me,Haitian American, Ghanaian
American Some people may justlook at us as African American.
We have all of these differentexperiences.
We've seen diversity.
We've seen inclusion work in somany different facets, from us
(12:26):
in high school to us in college,med school and so forth and I
think that's something that Iwant to get onto this show where
we talk about the pipeline.
But before we jump into thatdiscussion, let's just take a
quick break for a sponsor.
This episode is brought to youby locumstorycom.
Backdrop 2012, finishing myfellowship in Miami and no
(12:49):
decision bigger than where andhow I was going to start working
on my own.
And there it was the fork inthe road being employed versus
something I had never heard ofbefore locum tenants.
So I decided to go the locumsroute and I had a ton of
questions.
Then I stumbled a bit, buteventually I was able to stand
on my own and I have beenworking locums over the past 10
(13:11):
years.
Now, what about you?
If you're considering locums,you probably have hella
questions, just like I did, Likewho covers my malpractice, Do I
really have control over howoften I work, and what are the
tax implications?
Now, lucky for you,locumstorycom has the answers
you need.
It's packed with unbiasedinformation and advice from docs
(13:32):
just like you, and there'snothing to sell here.
It's just a simple resource forinformation, like finding out
what's the average pay rate foryour specialty.
There's even a quiz to see iflocums is right for you.
So listen, take my advice.
Locumstorycom is the perfectplace to start.
(13:54):
If you want to learn more aboutlocums, that's locumstorycom,
and we're back.
So listen y'all.
I'm going to start this off bysaying yo, Dr Renee, I don't
know what it is that she'sdrinking.
She's like a superwoman.
She killed this panel.
So there was a panel of fourfolks, right?
Dr Barbara Ross Lee was leadingthis panel and this was a panel
(14:15):
on, you know, just talkingabout different solutions that
we can come up with thatdiversity issue within the AACOM
, all of these differentcolleges of osteopathic medicine
, and it was two medicalstudents who are dope.
They're great.
And then me and renee werethere and I'm just sitting there
and I'm like man, like we're inthis big dais.
The chairs are nice andcomfortable oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, it was a nice and comfortable.
The lights are like yeah, itwasn't.
Yeah, it was a different typeof vibe for real it was really
like it was the.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
It was in this grand ballroom, like everybody was
plugged in and there I thoughtthis was going to be like a
small panel in a small room.
I didn't know it was going tobe the event for that for
yesterday, which was, which wasgreat.
But I gotta say yo, like renee,like whatever, you was off the
chain yeah, that's your bag.
Like you handled that situation, like your ability to storyt,
(15:04):
your ability to captivate theaudience.
Don't get humble on this, forreal.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Don't mess it up.
Don't mess it up, hold on, holdon, let it breathe.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
It's a gift, you know .
Hold on, let it breathe, justlet it breathe for a second.
Let me give you your flowers,the ability for you to speak and
captivate a crowd and tell yourstory story talking about
pipeline and talking about someof the issues that you developed
or had happened to you whileyou were in college, and so
forth.
Like that's phenomenal.
I'm sitting up there I'm givingmy answers.
They asked me a question aboutfinances and I'll get into that
(15:32):
later, but my answer was justlike elementary, like you went,
you went cold on them on it.
So I just said how about this?
Let's, let's, let's do thisquestion real quick that Dr
Barbara Ross Lee asked you andthen I want you to answer it and
then I'll ask you somequestions from here.
Okay, okay, does that work?
That works.
You're not nervous, are you?
Oh, my God, I'm so nervous.
All right, so she asked you, asyou work with individuals who
(15:54):
want to be physicians, what aresome things that you think that
the leaders of our College ofOsteopathic Medicine should know
about the hopes, expectationsand fears of our future students
?
Dr Renee, what say you?
What did you say?
Say exactly what you saidyesterday.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Don't change it up.
Don't change it up Exactly whatI said yesterday, but I did say
that they need to know a lot.
But one of the first thingsthat I went into was the fact
that-.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Man, just answer the way how you answered yesterday.
Nobody asked you to summarize,just get into it, come on.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Okay.
So we need to understand rightLeaders need to understand that
pre-med students oftentimesthey're lost, they don't
actually know what it takes toget into medical school right,
and without that knowledge thenthey're going to be at a
disadvantage, and that'ssomething that I don't know that
(16:46):
people actually appreciate.
There's kind of a notion thatpeople have that if you're in
this process, you know exactlywhat it is that you're supposed
to be doing and you don't.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
That was a number one point that I thought was dope.
Yeah, like people just assumethat you are applying to school.
You know all the ins and outs,and there are things that are
just not obvious Right,Particularly if you don't grow
up in that type of environmentIf your parents aren't
physicians, or if your parentsmaybe didn't go to college, you
(17:19):
may not know certain thingsExactly.
Keep going, keep going, sis.
You're cooking, you're cooking.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
You're cooking.
She's cooking, guys, she'scooking Come on, go at it, so
you know.
So I brought that to basicallytalk about the next point, which
that's where I got into mystory and I talked about how you
know, I was valedictorian of mypreschool class.
(17:43):
I had always been a very goodstudent.
I was the only student in myelementary school to get a
scholarship to a private highschool.
Once I did that, I graduatedsalutatorian.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I didn't know there was private high schools in
Brooklyn.
But go ahead, Get out of here.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You went to a private high school.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
In Newark Exactly.
I didn't know there wereprivate anything in Newark.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
All right, in Newark Exactly, I didn't know that
there were private anything inNewark, all right.
So, but I talked about that.
And then I talked about thefact that I graduated to
Ludatorian from that high schooland then went into college
thinking you know it's going togo great.
Well, by the end of my firstyear I had a 1.9 GPA.
You know me, the preschool, youknow valedictorian who would
(18:22):
have thought Like you know?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And so and I know a lot of people who have had that
experience- who actually saythat, yeah, I got a 1.9, but I
started off as the preschoolvaledictorian.
Damn, how did I go wrong.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Maybe not the preschool valedictorian?
How did I go wrong for?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
preschool.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I still have my sash somewhere that says
valedictorian, somewhere Like 12years, maybe 30 years.
All right, go ahead.
But you know, what I reallywanted to bring out from that
story was the fact that when Iwent to my pre-med advisor, the
person who was supposed to helpme what she basically told me
was, you know, that I shouldessentially do something else
(19:03):
but hold on.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Before you go there, you so what you leave, and I see
this is what I'm here for.
Okay, so you want me to tellthe whole story?
Well, tell the story and wait.
The way in which you told, likeyou, you went from you start
hold on.
I ain't say you can go.
Yeah, hold on a second.
That's part of the reason whyI'm here is because you're not.
You're as well.
So what was the feeling thatyou had when you had the 1-9?
Talk about that.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Well, the feeling that I had when I had the 1-9
was I actually was confused,right.
I didn't really know what wasgoing on.
I felt overwhelmed, I just feltlike okay, something's not
right and I really couldn'tunderstand, you know, the
feelings that I was having, andthe feelings that I was having
like what, and and the resultthat I was getting, like that,
to me, was just so what do youthink it was?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
was a test taking?
Do you think you weren't ready?
Do you think you were reallyinterested in that in bio at the
time, like hindsight, hindsight, I think.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
What it was was I really just had poor study
habits, at least for college see, this is what she said
yesterday, guys, and she'sleaving all this.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
So that's why I gotta , at least for college.
See, this is what she saidyesterday, guys, and she's
leaving all this.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So that's why I got to you.
Got to you know, but keep going.
So I think I had poor studyhabits, but that's hindsight.
So this is one nine.
At the end of your first year,at the end of my first year, and
so, talking to my pre-medadvisor, went into her office
and said to her you know, I feeloverwhelmed, I really don't
know what to do.
And she said well, you know,what do you want to do
eventually?
And I said well, I want to goto med school, I want to be a
(20:24):
doctor.
And she said looks at me, andshe goes hmm, maybe you should
go to dental school instead.
And then she goes no Hold upPause.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So at this point there is a bunch of people in
the audience who are likethey're kind of smirk and
they're like, oh snap, yeah,right, yeah, but keep going.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Then she says, well, maybe you should go to dental
school instead, and she goes,but that's hard to get into also
.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
And then there's that ooh in the room.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, and then she goes maybe you should go to
graduate school and do somethingelse.
That's literally the advicethat she and that's verbatim.
Like I want you to like, I needpeople to understand that
that's verbatim and the factthat I remember that verbatim it
literally, it literally is anindication that it left such a
(21:16):
negative impression on me.
You know that I rememberspecifically those words.
I was 18 years old, so at thepoint you were lost.
You know that I rememberspecifically those words.
I was 18 years old.
So at the point you were lost,you were overwhelmed and you
were going to her to try to findmaybe some type of lifeline or
something like that, somethingto you know someone to help me,
and she essentially didn't even,she didn't even give me a
chance, she didn't ask me well,what you know?
(21:38):
What's your problem?
What are you doing?
You know?
Speaker 1 (21:40):
tell me what your day is like, because a lot could
change after your first year.
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
And a lot did change.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
This is not your third year, your fourth year,
Well.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I mean.
I think it's important for usto realize that at 18 years old
we should not expect for peopleto have it all together.
That's an unrealisticexpectation.
There are responsibilities thatwe would never give an
18-year-old.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
All right, pause.
So let's go back into that wayhow you're answering the
question.
So once you said that part ofthe question, or you said that
part of the description of youbeing in an office, she's saying
look, it looks like med school,dental school.
That's too tough for you.
Maybe you need to do gradschool and so forth.
Why don't you go to keep goingwith the story?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
You got kicked out of school.
What happened?
No, I didn't get kicked out ofschool, so, but what I did say
was you know that, fortunately,you know, I had a way to to keep
going right, like my story isvery long and convoluted, um, so
I didn't go into the entirething but eventually I kept
going.
But my question, you know, tothe audience was well, what
about those people who didn'tkeep going?
(22:43):
What about those pre-meds whofall off and you never see them
again?
You actually never see themagain, right?
If I were that person, youwould literally never see me
again.
And we've got to understand thatas a profession, like, we have
to take a stake in recruitingpeople into our profession.
Like that's our responsibility.
(23:04):
Now there are some good, youknow pre-med advisors, but I
mean, let's face it, they don'tnecessarily have that big of a
stake in the game for us toreally outsource, you know, our
recruitment, and especially whenit comes to diversity
initiatives, something that isso very important, we don't, we
(23:25):
really shouldn't, outsource thatto a whole other profession,
which is the pre-med advisementprofession.
So I really think it's our youknow, it's our responsibility to
do that.
Then I told them about themedic program and I shouted out
you know the schools that are inthe medic program.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I think one of the things that you talked about was
pipeline programs.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
So why don't you talk briefly about what you
mentioned?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
there.
Yeah, I forgot about thatactually.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, I know you did.
That's why I'm here, Becauseyou know what I said.
Yes, I was watching, I was inawe.
Yo, I'm telling you she wascold guys.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yeah, so I talked about pipeline programs and
mentioned that the students whoare told that they are not going
to make it and they fall off,they don't even get an
opportunity to get into apipeline program.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Oftentimes, the people who actually even make it
to a pipeline program arepeople those are those B and C
students, maybe lower B range Cstudents, who just need a little
bit of a Of a boost.
Hey, what's going on?
Let me help you out.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Exactly, and they probably were going to figure it
out anyway.
They probably, even if theyweren't necessarily in a
pipeline program, they mighthave figured it out.
That was actually my case.
I was not in a pipeline program.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
So you said that specifically in the pipeline
programs.
What you're noticing is thoseare the students that would have
what they would have made itanyway.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Okay, they would have made it anyway, and so we've
lost a number of students whoactually did need that pipeline.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
So when you say that, are you saying that the people
who are in there shouldn't be inthose pipeline programs?
No, definitely not.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
No, I think pipeline programs are extremely important
and I don't want to take away,you know from people who have
gone through pipeline programsbecause guess what, While they
might have made it anyway, thisprobably shortened, you know,
the length of time for them toget there, probably shortened,
or it probably lessened the painfor them to get through there,
(25:19):
right?
Unlike me, I didn't go througha pipeline program, so that
probably lengthened the time forme to be able to figure out
what I was going to do.
Had I been in a pipelineprogram, yeah, I would have made
it anyway, but I maybe wouldhave made it in a shorter period
of time, right?
So I don't want to discountpipeline programs and say, oh
(25:41):
well, you know, they're not goodfor anything.
You're just preaching to thechoir.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
What do you think the leaders could do right now?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
then, so I think one of the things that the leaders
can do is they need to theyliterally need to take the reins
of recruitment.
Like it can't be this.
I feel like recruitment is verypassive, for lack of a better
word.
Right, we wait for the studentsto come to us.
Right, even if we go toorganizational conferences?
(26:14):
Right, we go to theorganizational conferences in
hopes that the students willcome to us.
Right, we might go to a schoolfair here and there, but let's
face it, there are over 3,000colleges around the country, so
we can't necessarily-.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
So you were proposing an active role, a very active
role.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Well, one of the roles that I propose is a
solution of my own, which is themedic program.
Right, Look at this ladytalking about the stuff that's
problem.
I got a solution, so you talkabout your medic app.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
So the reason why you talk about your medic app.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
You shouted out what's the schools that you
shouted out.
So I shouted out William Careyuniversity, uh, des Moines
university, kansas cityuniversity and Idaho college of
osteopath.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Why'd you shout them out?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I shouted them out because these are schools that
have invested in my program inparticular, but because they are
schools that literally aretaking the reins and saying we
are going to kind of noteliminate but we are going to
not necessitate the middleman ofthe pre-med advisor, right?
(27:20):
So I always encourage studentsto go to their pre-med advisors
good, bad or otherwise.
I say go to your pre-medadvisor because there is
something that you're going toneed from them and you need to
make sure that you cultivatethat relationship.
But at the same time Irecognize that there is value in
going straight to the source,going straight to the horse's
mouth.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
And the horse's mouth is the medical school.
So your app allows directcommunication between the
medical school and collegestudents, pre-medical students
non-traditional students.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Non-traditional students as well.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
And on your app you allow certain events like a
pre-med I talked about the Mockand Rock event.
Right.
So this is an opportunity forpre-meds who are using your app,
non-traditional students whoare using your app to go on the
app and get interviewed byphysicians, and other people who
are in the admissions committeeof medical schools.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Exactly Admissions committee folks, faculty medical
students.
So yeah, this is an opportunityfor them to literally interface
in ways that they otherwisewould not be able to interface,
you know, with pre-med students,right.
So you know, the schools andpre-meds need to be like, they
(28:33):
need to have that relationship,and right now they don't, and
the only time that they actuallydo is if the pre-med person,
right, if the pre-med individualis actually reaching out to the
school.
So there really isn't a very soyou're like the Uber.
Yes, You're like the Lyft.
I'm like the Uber and Lyft Ofmedical schools and stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
You're connecting people getting rid of the
middleman.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
The taxis and the taxis being the pre-med advisors
.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
The taxis and the taxis being the pre-med advisors
yeah, taking them places.
I'm just I'm not Meeting people.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Pre-med advisors are extremely important, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
But this is just a non-traditional way of looking
at communicating betweenpre-meds, as well as college or
medical schools.
Right, and medical schools.
I mean, it's just another wayto you know, or another added
thing that we can do to makethings better, because we've
(29:26):
been doing it this way for solong, but we still have issues
with diversity, and so I feellike we've been implementing the
same solutions over and over,thinking okay, well, one day it
will work, and it's like, butyou know it's not working, right
, I got you.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
All right, so let's shift a little bit.
It's not working Right.
I got you All right, so let'sshift a little bit.
So when they asked me, theyasked me in my work and teaching
about finances what impact haveI found on the high tuition of
many medical schools, includingosteopathic medical schools?
So my answer, which was not asgood as hers, I basically just
kind of listed some of thenumbers.
I said the average medicalschool debt is like $215,000.
If you combine average medicaldebt with average college debt
(30:01):
together, that's roughly around$240,000, $250,000.
And it takes roughly about 13years on average for people to
pay back their student loans.
And I also mentioned that.
I don't know if anybody knowswe're going to talk about this
on a future episode.
But Sally Mae, as well asNavient, they are the defendants
on a whole bunch of what do youcall those class action
(30:21):
lawsuits where they found outafter doing research is that
when you call Sally Mae orNavient and you are asking for
help, you're saying that youcan't make a certain payment.
You're struggling with making acertain payment.
There's a whole bunch ofdifferent options that they can
offer you, one of them beingsome type of income-based
repayment plan which is basedoff of how much money you're
(30:43):
bringing in.
Sometimes you may be allowed,based off of how much you're
making, to not even make anytype of payment, and that will
actually count towards thesignificant amount of payments
that you need to makeconsecutively to get your loan
repaid Without interest.
But what they found out afterinvestigating is that actually
the customer service workerswere shifting people to
(31:04):
forbearance.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Right, which is basically interest first.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Right, and it capitizes and all of these
different things.
That's what happened to me, soI can remember this specifically
me calling or excuse me, theycalling me and I'm ready to go
into a case or I'm doingsomething.
I'm just trying to get off thephone and I'm saying what
options do I have?
Because I cannot make any morepayments.
I'm struggling right now as aresident.
I can't make any payments andthey're saying, yeah, just
forbear, and that gets them offmy back for like three months,
(31:31):
six months, and then next year,you know, we're back at it again
and that's how someone'sstudent loan payment goes from
$240,000 to $330 thirty thousanddollars.
And what's that?
In five years?
Right, because that wegraduated in 2006.
That was 240 000 by the time wefinished all of our training in
2011 2012 we're at 330 000 each.
(31:51):
Yeah, that's a problem.
So I said that that has animpact on how, uh, medical
students choose the specialtiesthat they want to go into as a,
even where they're going topractice.
It affects the communitiesthey're going to practice in,
the hospitals they're going tosign on with, and I think, after
what we learned this year withCOVID and a whole bunch of other
different things, like theinterest of the hospital is not
(32:13):
necessarily interest of you.
It's definitely not probably inthe same interest of your
patients.
They want your patients to dowell, but that may not correlate
with standard of care, with howyou were trained right.
So how likely are you to standup to a hospital?
How likely are you going to beable to advocate for your
patients when you know thatthere's going to be some type of
financial implication for you,ie not being able to make a
(32:35):
student loan payment?
or you know justa significantchange in how you get paid which
is going to affect how you payyour student loans.
You know just a significantchange in how you get paid which
is going to affect how you payyour student loans, right?
So I think that you know.
There is no talk whatsoeverabout money in medical school.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yet when we get out into the real world, we are
expecting money like changes.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Money affects all of the decisions that we make and
it affects everything from A toZ.
So I think that we need to do abetter job.
We need to incorporate finance,some type of talk about money,
some type of talk about what arethese loans going to do with
you?
Maybe these are your options,Rather than save that for the
exit interview, your fourth year.
This needs to be incorporatedin Up front.
Up front In your first year,your second year, and there is
(33:15):
time, guys, there time to havethese type of courses and
classes or modules to do this.
But, as you can see, my answeris not as good as hers.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
No, I mean, I think you know, as far as as it
relates trying to figure out away, no as far as no.
I thought your answer wasactually really good.
I think what happened?
No, I'm not.
I think your answer wasactually really good.
I think that that's not.
You know, that's not a topicthat most people are really used
to hearing on the academic, youknow, on the academic side,
(33:44):
right.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Because I think the big thing that I notice is and
that's the easiest solution,right?
Because from my perspective,I'm not in the.
I'm not in the discussions onthe board, I'm not in
discussions on admissions, whereit just seems like medical
schools or colleges in generalincrease their tuition and they
know that automatically, all ofthese student loan services are
(34:05):
just going to be like, yeah,sure, no problem, which is
exactly what happens and it'slike well, but the body hasn't
changed, the body hasn't gottenmore complex, like our tuition
of $30,000 a year, why is it now$50,000 a year?
The body hasn't transformedinto something else.
So where is all this money, allthis money going to?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Right, why am I paying more?
Yeah, so I think that'sprobably one of the hardest
things I think to change is theinflation that's going on with
with college colleges, as wellas medical student tuition rates
.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
But at least we got to prepare them and let them
know like this is the this isgoing to happen and this is how
you are supposed to deal with it.
Right, you know to happen andthis is how you are supposed to
deal with it.
One of the things that, as youwere talking about that, I was
thinking how do we expect peopleto give really good care to
(34:54):
patients when really, whatthey're thinking about is how
they're going to make their nextpayment?
What they're thinking about ishow they're going to make their
next payment, how they're, youknow, if they're choosing jobs
just based on well, I got to paythe bills, or they're leaving
jobs because the job doesn't payenough.
Right, Like how many times haveyou, you know, maybe heard a
physician say, like well, youknow they're, they're not really
(35:15):
paying much over here, so Ihave to take another job, and
it's like like wow, what animpact that that might have on
this community.
What impact might that have on?
Speaker 1 (35:24):
that on the student body, because sometimes you're
talking about academics as well,who are leaving their job.
I also think that the issuethat we fail to bring up is what
about the what could be, thewhat ifs that this person could
do, like what if they wanted totake a year off and go do some
work in a different country,some medical, humanitarian work?
(35:45):
Or what if they wanted to takesome time off and work on some
type of I don't know some typeof community service?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Or some innovation.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
What if they wanted to take a chance to do some type
of innovation?
Or what if they wanted to goback to a medical school and
just be a teacher there, andmaybe the pay is not as good as
them working clinically, butthis is what they want to do.
But because of that mental math, that mathematics, it doesn't
work out.
And that's what I think is thebiggest issue is, is that we're
talking about leadership.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
We're talking about oh yeah, as a physician, you
could do anything you want, butwe're not properly preparing,
yeah, we're not looking at thewhole scope, right?
So now, ok, let's, let's, let'sput on our osteopathic hats,
right, let's put on ourosteopathic hats because you
know in in our profession, right, we are taught, it's embedded.
(36:34):
You know in our curriculum, weare taught, it's embedded.
You know in our curriculum,it's drilled into us that it is
very important to take the wholebody as a unit, right?
And so if the whole body is aunit-.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
She about to take the osteopathic profession to
church.
All right, let's go ahead.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
If the whole body is a unit, right, we can't just
apply that to patients.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
She's cooking y'all.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Okay, we can't just apply that to patients.
She's cooking y'all.
Okay, we can't just apply thatto patients.
She's cooking.
This, you know, the whole the,the body as a unit, is literally
about life, that's how I see it.
Gotcha, I see it as about life,right.
So you know, we are taught thatwhen a patient comes in, that
even though they're coming inand maybe their arm hurts as
they're walking into the room,you should be looking at them,
(37:14):
you should be looking at theirgait, you should be looking at
their demeanor, you should belooking at pretty much
everything about this patient.
Well, what about our doctors?
Right, are we looking ateverything about our doctors?
Are we considering their mentalhealth?
Are we considering theirfinancial situations?
Are we considering the thingsthat will impact our doctor's
(37:37):
ability to be able to be attheir very, very best?
Speaker 1 (37:42):
No.
So the question is is that thejob of the medical school?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Well, I would argue that it is.
So if your goal is to put outphysicians who are going to be
competent, who are going to bewilling and able to practice,
then I think you need to look atthe entire physician's
situation to say how best can Igive, like, what are the best
tools and resources that I cangive them to be able to take
(38:13):
care of communities?
Because that's what medicalschools report that they are.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
I think any type of industry needs to learn how to
adapt right.
We see that in so manydifferent successful companies,
organizations or evenprofessions.
When things occur, they adapt,they change and so forth.
And I think, with all of thesedifferent doctors and all of
these different medical studentsand residents talking about
side hustle culture and going onand doing stuff with social
(38:38):
media, what that's saying isthat, listen, what we are
getting probably is not enoughand I need more.
I need more preparation on ANeed people where they're at.
I need this, I need that.
So basically all of this stuff,I think, is a symptom that the
way in which we're educating, orthere needs to be more
additional things that we'redoing to prepare residents,
(39:00):
doctors, medical students forbasically a different world
right.
Like we're still kind oftraining them for like world,
like 30, 40, 50 years ago whenthings have completely changed.
right, when the average medicalschool debt in 1999 was like 150
, no, actually I think it wasless than that, right, but the
stakes weren't as high as theyare now Right.
And you're not dealing with.
(39:21):
You know, back then thelikelihood of you going into
private practice was much higherthan it is now, right, right.
So now you're going into asituation where you're basically
almost a high paid employee.
So the stakes are way highernow than they were 10 years ago,
20 years ago and 30 years ago.
So that's my thought, I thinkit is, I think it's it's.
They don't have to, but I thinkthey should in order to keep up
(39:43):
with current times and for usto continue to, you know,
basically evolve.
Otherwise, if we don't evolve,then we don't have that other
issue where other you knowwhat's the way I want to say
other um, like nurses and nursepractitioners and physician
assistants.
They will take over becausepeople will be fleeing our
(40:03):
occupation.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Right, and they're like well, they'll see the
opportunity in our, in the, inthe cracks right of our
profession.
Well, I will tell you this Iwas, I was definitely encouraged
by the fact that that questioneven came up at an educational,
at an academic conference.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Right, because it's almost like you just pay the
price to be in the game andthat's it Right.
Instead of just like hey, let'sactually inquire, like why is
it so high?
And try to figure out why it'sso high and let's talk about it
Before.
It's almost like I mean this isjust what it is to be so high
and let's talk about it before.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
it's almost like I mean this is just what it is to
be a doctor and that's itexactly move on, let's go from
there yeah, so I was justencouraged that, you know,
especially on that panel whichwas unopposed, and it brought
everybody to the table you knowto to hear and and kind of you
know, get their wheels turningabout this issue.
I was really encouraged that ithappened at this particular
(40:59):
conference.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Shout out to Kenneth Durgans, who was there from.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
KCU.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
What's his official title?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
So he is the, I believe, the vice provost of
diversity at KCU.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, and also shout out to Dr Rance McClain at KCU.
Yeah, and also shout out to DrRance McClain who was our
professor?
When we were in medical schoolfrom 2002 to 2006.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
He's now at ARCOM in Arkansas.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah, so what's the full name?
Speaker 2 (41:26):
I believe it's Arkansas College of Osteopathic
Medicine.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
I believe so.
So he's there.
I think he's the dean there now.
Yes, he's the dean Big Tings,first of all if any of his
students are listening.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
He really made it clear that he wanted us to let
you know that we thought he wasactually one of the coolest
professors in med school.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
He really was.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
He was a cool professor.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
His pants game needed some help, but he was excellent
.
He was a really good professor.
I remember he actually hoodedme and that picture is sitting
in my mama's living room so Iwas telling him that he says
that he hoods so many people andhe white coats so many people.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
It's hard to keep track of all of these different
things, but I told him.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
I was like look, we're part of your legacy and
that's the teach.
One is yeah, although you don'tlike have these, you know
unique, special relationshipsthat go for a long way you know
you still have an effect onfolks and they're going to
affect other people and it allcomes back to you and you know.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Explain to the pre-meds what hooding is,
because they may not know whatthat means yeah, so pre-meds, uh
.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
So when you start medical school, there's this, um
, there's this, uh, what do youcall it?
There's this ceremony.
The first thing is there's this, what do you call it?
Speaker 2 (42:35):
There's this ceremony ?
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Yeah, the first thing is the white coat ceremony
there's this ceremony called thewhite coat ceremony, where you
actually get a white coat that'sput on you.
You have to say the HippocraticOath.
If you're an osteopath, you saythe.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Osteopathic Oath.
You say the Osteopathic Oath.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Like what Right?
And it basically kind of is aceremony that kind of starts the
process of you, you know, justbeing involved in a profession
of being a physician.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
But there's, someone.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Someone.
You invite, someone who wasmonumental in you becoming a
doctor.
You get a doctor and they comeand they put the white coat on
you.
That means something and then,when you graduate, four years
later, you could invite anotherphysician to put your hood on
you right your graduation hoodyeah.
Your graduation hood on you andfor me.
I had Dr Dale Sanders, as wellas Dr Rance McClain, who put the
(43:22):
hood on me.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yeah, and you get to, especially for the hooding.
Most students will actuallychoose that doctor, and so for
the white coat ceremony you maynot know someone, so that person
is usually designated for you,but for the hooding, because you
may not know someone, so thatperson is usually designated for
you, but for the hoodingbecause you've gone through four
years of medical school.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Oh, we've been through it.
Oh yeah, man yeah.
You actually invited a doctor,I was going to invite Dr Dre.
I was like you need to come andhood me, Dr Dre, Come on no you
weren't the rapper Dr Dre.
I know, I know, I know that'swhat you're talking about.
(44:19):
No, you weren't Anyway but yeah, so that's what hooding is, and
you know it just shows fouryears, so I felt like that was a
good honor to bestow upon him.
Yeah, he was lucky to get thathe was lucky he was lucky to get
that.
I don't know what's up with thelights.
I don't know why the lightskeep coming up and on, alfred's
gonna have to fix that, butanyway.
So, listen, I think that ispretty much it.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
We got to get on a plane, yeah we got to get on a
plane, we got to get out of here.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
So listen everyone, make sure you check out
locumstorycom so you can figureout more stories, more unbiased
information about how locumsworks, how to basically
incorporate how one locumscompany will work with another
locums company, and also checkout this right here AACOM
Educating Leaders Conferencethat happens on a yearly basis.
(45:00):
Check out Metta Christie DrMetta Christie and what she
meant to the OsteopathicCommittee and we're going to get
back to our normal scheduledepisodes after this and we'll go
from there.
Anything else you want to say.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
No, I just you know I'm excited to get back to our
kids.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, they're waiting for us.
Earplugs ready to go.
All right, y'all, we'll catchyou guys on the next one.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Peace.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Peace.
Did you know Locum's Docs make, on average, 33% more
than employed docs?
Got your attention now.
So if you're considering Locumtenants, either full-time or on
the side, you probably have aquestion or two, or maybe even
20.
Locumstorycom is packed withunbiased information and tools
(00:22):
to see what the trends are inyour specialty and even make a
decision if locums is right foryou.
My advice make locumstorycomthe go-to place to learn more
about locum tenants.
That's locumstorycom.
What's good everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofDocs Outside the Box.
(00:43):
I'm the host, dr Neem, joinedby Dr Renee.
Hey, so listen, if you can tellby the background, there's some
background noise.
If you're watching on YouTube,shout out to everybody who's
watching us on YouTube.
You can see that we're in adifferent environment.
We've got people walking aroundhustling and bustling in the
background, so we're not at home.
It's called a conference.
It's called a conference,that's right.
(01:03):
Hey, everybody, we are at theAACOM, the American Association
of Colleges of OsteopathicMedicine.
They're having their EducatingLeaders Annual Conference.
We were part of the first everMetta Christie panel.
If you don't know, mettaChristie DO is the first
(01:24):
African-American osteopathicgraduate in the United States
and we were on this panelyesterday for about an hour.
It was me and you, as well astwo osteopathic medical students
, and we were talking aboutdiversity, equity and inclusion
those type of topics Moderatedby the Dr Barbara Ross Lee.
(01:44):
She's an icon in osteopathicmedicine for so many different
reasons, but it was really dopeto be on that panel.
We didn't get a chance torecord it, so we wanted to kind
of talk a little bit about thaton this episode.
But before we jump into that, Ithink the most important thing
is, you know, in the lastepisode we talked about what it
(02:04):
was like to travel, what it'slike to, you know, kind of be in
part of these events.
And I think one of the personswho got us onto this panel, dr
Jason Walker, phd.
Dr Jason Walker, he's a PhD at.
He's at PCOM, he's at PCOM,south Georgia and one of the
funny thing he said to me, he'slike Dr Darko.
He's talking to me, dr Darko,like I'm surprised you were able
(02:25):
to make this event becauseyou're working all the time.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
He's a, you know, hardest working man in America.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Working all the time and, as a result, like you can't
I'm.
It's very rare that I'm able togo to these events.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
You normally go to your events.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
This is your bag, this is what you're good at.
And then it started thinking tome.
(03:00):
I was like, I started thinkingI was like man, like it's true,
and, to be really honest, one ofthe ways that I've been able to
start plugging myself back inis by really controlling my
schedule, knowing exactly whenI'm going working locums, I
think.
I think that works for me.
I think if I was employed, Iwould not be able to go to as
many conferences as we haveslated for this year.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, let me tell you , as your business manager, I
have definitely put a number ofconferences on your schedule.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah.
So the way how it works is is,as a locums, I'm an independent
contractor with a hospital justlike how you would hire a
plumber and you work with aplumber, Plumber tells you when
he can work or when she can work, and then that's it.
Yeah Right, there's no salary,there's no benefits, it's just a
straight fee and then with thatfee, you're supposed to be able
to do and purchase what youneed to do, which may be you
(03:40):
know Pl, you know plumbing,plumbing, or which may be you
know like a 401k or which may bein health insurance and so
forth.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So you know, yeah, yeah, I mean.
So, as I said, you know youdefinitely, this year um are
going to have a number ofconferences that we're going to
be plugging you into.
Um, part of the reason thatactually you're going to have a
much busier schedule in generalthis year is because we are
doing something a little bitdifferent.
So, did you know?
(04:13):
Did you know that we're doingsomething different?
No, you know, you're justplaying around.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
No, I really don't know what you're even getting at
.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Well, we're going to be doing something a little bit
different.
We have a couple of campaignsupcoming this year for Docs
Outside the Box, and it's goingto require that we do a little
bit more travel, hopefullytaking this podcast on the road,
like we're taking right now,and one of the places that we're
(04:41):
going to be partnered up withis actually LocumStory.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, that's where I'm going with it.
So now you know.
Now I know where you're going.
Okay, so that's why I remainthe host.
Okay, Because you don't knowhow to lead people in at all.
Really so guys, we're doingthings a little bit differently
here.
Right, we are partnering upwith LocumStory, okay, and they
are literally the onlineresource for everything you
wanted to know about locums.
I'm telling you right now.
So, when I first started doinglocums in 2012, my resource was
(05:09):
you yeah, because you were doinglocums at the time, and that's
why.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I'm the business manager.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Right.
So if you go to locumstorycomright now, literally it is the
best way I can say is it'sreally unbiased information.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Like it's.
Trust me, as someone who's donelocums for 10 years, the
information is very unbiased.
You have the opportunity toreally compare different locums
agencies, which is huge right.
What do they offer?
What are the type of rates,based off of the type of
specialties that?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
you're looking at.
That's really cold.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Because you know there's one thing to say hey, I
want to do locums, but if youdon't know what the rates are,
and then, if you don't know whatthe rates are between companies
, yo, what are we talking abouthere?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So, yeah, no, that's really good.
That locum story does that,because one of the main
questions that we get wheneverpeople ask us about locums is
well, how much should I becharging?
What should my rates be?
So the fact that they even havethat information is ridiculous.
So even if you remember how youfound out you should be
charging, oh my God.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
You want to talk about that real quick.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, so I found out that I I found out how I was
being paid and how much I wasbeing paid and how much the
locums agency I was working withat the time was being paid,
because someone didn't realizethat they were not supposed to
cc me on an email.
One of the administrators at ahospital cc'd me on an email um
(06:29):
to the locums company and heoutlined all of the rates and I
was like, wait, what I was likeI'm not getting even half of
this.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah so, basically the rate that the locums company
quoted to you, that's what youwere getting paid.
When you saw the email, theemail showed exactly the total
amount that the locums companywas charging the hospital and
you found out that you were likepennies on a dollar compared to
what they were paying you yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, so I mean it's, you know, it's the.
The platform locum story is areally good way to just kind of
compare the rates you know thatyou're getting.
But the other thing is a lot ofthe questions that we get also
is okay, well, will I be able tocontrol my schedule?
Obviously, we just answeredthat.
Obviously the answer is yes,but can I do locums if?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I have kids, unless you give up that power like I
did.
So I told you when I firststarted working locums, I gave
my the person who handles mefrom a locum standpoint.
So when you guys work with acompany, there's going to be
someone who you work withspecifically.
I gave my schedule to him toarrange my gigs basically, and
there was one time whereactually there was a couple of
(07:35):
times where I would finishworking, I'd finish doing a
24-hour shift and then I woulddrive two hours away to another
place and start working thatsame day.
Oh my God, and it didn't clickto me that dude like this guy's
running you ragged and youdidn't have to do that.
You control your schedule,right.
But I just I didn't know how tolike, I didn't know how to take
charge of that.
I didn't know I could takecharge back then.
(07:55):
So, that's just a little bit ofexample of yeah, you can control
your schedule.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Right, but you have to be very intentional about it.
And then the other questionthat people often ask us, you
know, is can you do locums whenyou have kids?
And then the other questionthat I think people don't even
think about can you do locumsinternationally?
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
And we talked about that a little bit in a previous
episode.
When you went to Ghana andthings like that, you weren't
doing locums in Ghana, obviously, but you said that.
You said that a number ofdoctors work locums while
they're in Ghana.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean so.
We know people who.
There's gigs in the MarshallIslands, there's gigs in Guam,
there's gigs in just New Zealand.
So listen, folks, you don'thave to do things one way.
There's multiple ways you canskin a cat and I think that
locumstorycomcom they do areally good job of making sure
that you understand the entirescope of what to expect as a
(08:51):
locum's doc yeah I think they doit the best out of anybody yeah
like I said, I wish thisresource was there when I was
there, or at least you knewabout it, because it probably
did exist already.
No, I spoke to them, it did notexist back then, then oh wow I
do my research.
I do my research.
It was not there back in 2011,2012.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So, listen, I mean, yeah, it's good, and we're also
going to be partnering with themon a special campaign to
essentially show our audienceexactly what it takes.
How do you go through getting alocums gig.
So stay tuned for that.
But the link link, the link tolocumstorycom is going to be in
the show notes um so listen guys, come on.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Y'all can't figure that out.
It's locumstorycom.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Come on now it is, but there's a special link for
us, so that they know that theycame from locumstorycom, so
locumstorycom.
Come on, guys, let's say hardno, no, but they got to use the
special link to let them knowthat it came from Docs Outside
the Box.
That's true, yeah, so if youlove Docs Outside the Box and
you want LocumStory to know thatyou went to their website
(09:53):
because of Docs Outside the Boxand we don't get anything from
you clicking the link, so youcan just go ahead and click the
link.
We just get the satisfaction ofknowing that we are sending
people over to locumstorycom.
Then, yeah, click the link inthe show notes.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Links are always in the show notes and also, if
you're watching on YouTube, it'sin the show description.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Make sure you check that out.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So let's jump into how Locums allows us to be here.
So we've kind of settled thatLocums thing already.
So now that we are here inDenver at the AACOM Educating
Leaders Conference, we're makingthis work.
So why were we invited here?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Well, actually we were invited because Dr Jason
Walker thought about us, right?
So he, you know he's a part ofthe.
I think it's called a committeeoh gosh, it's called the
Committee on Diversity andEquity that the AAMC has, and
(10:49):
we've known Dr Jason Walker forsome time because he used to
work at our alma mater yeah, KCU.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Shout out to KCU.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yep, you're not sponsoring this show.
Think about that, oh mygoodness.
But yeah, so we've been incontact with Dr Walker for a
while.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
You need to move over a little bit into the camera
more, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Act like you potted before Talking to the audience,
about just the importance ofdiversity, equity, inclusion,
belonging justice something thatthe AACOM is really dedicated
to and trying to make sure thatthey address in terms of being
(11:39):
able to create the nextgeneration of DOs.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I think for me what I got from Dr Jason Walker is the
reason he wanted us on there isbecause we kind of walk it and
talk it.
Yeah, right, and I thinksometimes, when you can get too
academic, that's your bag.
When you can get too academicwith certain talks, you have all
of these great ideas or all ofthese great, you figure out the
problem, but you don'tnecessarily have solutions that
(12:04):
actually work.
And I think him having twopracticing physicians on their
married couple.
African American or, excuse me,Haitian American, Ghanaian
American Some people may justlook at us as African American.
We have all of these differentexperiences.
We've seen diversity.
We've seen inclusion work in somany different facets, from us
(12:26):
in high school to us in college,med school and so forth and I
think that's something that Iwant to get onto this show where
we talk about the pipeline.
But before we jump into thatdiscussion, let's just take a
quick break for a sponsor.
This episode is brought to youby locumstorycom.
Backdrop 2012, finishing myfellowship in Miami and no
(12:49):
decision bigger than where andhow I was going to start working
on my own.
And there it was the fork inthe road being employed versus
something I had never heard ofbefore locum tenants.
So I decided to go the locumsroute and I had a ton of
questions.
Then I stumbled a bit, buteventually I was able to stand
on my own and I have beenworking locums over the past 10
(13:11):
years.
Now, what about you?
If you're considering locums,you probably have hella
questions, just like I did, Likewho covers my malpractice, Do I
really have control over howoften I work, and what are the
tax implications?
Now, lucky for you,locumstorycom has the answers
you need.
It's packed with unbiasedinformation and advice from docs
(13:32):
just like you, and there'snothing to sell here.
It's just a simple resource forinformation, like finding out
what's the average pay rate foryour specialty.
There's even a quiz to see iflocums is right for you.
So listen, take my advice.
Locumstorycom is the perfectplace to start.
(13:54):
If you want to learn more aboutlocums, that's locumstorycom,
and we're back.
So listen y'all.
I'm going to start this off bysaying yo, Dr Renee, I don't
know what it is that she'sdrinking.
She's like a superwoman.
She killed this panel.
So there was a panel of fourfolks, right?
Dr Barbara Ross Lee was leadingthis panel and this was a panel
(14:15):
on, you know, just talkingabout different solutions that
we can come up with thatdiversity issue within the AACOM
, all of these differentcolleges of osteopathic medicine
, and it was two medicalstudents who are dope.
They're great.
And then me and renee werethere and I'm just sitting there
and I'm like man, like we're inthis big dais.
The chairs are nice andcomfortable oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, it was a nice and comfortable.
The lights are like yeah, itwasn't.
Yeah, it was a different typeof vibe for real it was really
like it was the.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
It was in this grand ballroom, like everybody was
plugged in and there I thoughtthis was going to be like a
small panel in a small room.
I didn't know it was going tobe the event for that for
yesterday, which was, which wasgreat.
But I gotta say yo, like renee,like whatever, you was off the
chain yeah, that's your bag.
Like you handled that situation, like your ability to storyt,
(15:04):
your ability to captivate theaudience.
Don't get humble on this, forreal.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Don't mess it up.
Don't mess it up, hold on, holdon, let it breathe.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
It's a gift, you know .
Hold on, let it breathe, justlet it breathe for a second.
Let me give you your flowers,the ability for you to speak and
captivate a crowd and tell yourstory story talking about
pipeline and talking about someof the issues that you developed
or had happened to you whileyou were in college, and so
forth.
Like that's phenomenal.
I'm sitting up there I'm givingmy answers.
They asked me a question aboutfinances and I'll get into that
(15:32):
later, but my answer was justlike elementary, like you went,
you went cold on them on it.
So I just said how about this?
Let's, let's, let's do thisquestion real quick that Dr
Barbara Ross Lee asked you andthen I want you to answer it and
then I'll ask you somequestions from here.
Okay, okay, does that work?
That works.
You're not nervous, are you?
Oh, my God, I'm so nervous.
All right, so she asked you, asyou work with individuals who
(15:54):
want to be physicians, what aresome things that you think that
the leaders of our College ofOsteopathic Medicine should know
about the hopes, expectationsand fears of our future students
?
Dr Renee, what say you?
What did you say?
Say exactly what you saidyesterday.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Don't change it up.
Don't change it up Exactly whatI said yesterday, but I did say
that they need to know a lot.
But one of the first thingsthat I went into was the fact
that-.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Man, just answer the way how you answered yesterday.
Nobody asked you to summarize,just get into it, come on.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Okay.
So we need to understand rightLeaders need to understand that
pre-med students oftentimesthey're lost, they don't
actually know what it takes toget into medical school right,
and without that knowledge thenthey're going to be at a
disadvantage, and that'ssomething that I don't know that
(16:46):
people actually appreciate.
There's kind of a notion thatpeople have that if you're in
this process, you know exactlywhat it is that you're supposed
to be doing and you don't.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
That was a number one point that I thought was dope.
Yeah, like people just assumethat you are applying to school.
You know all the ins and outs,and there are things that are
just not obvious Right,Particularly if you don't grow
up in that type of environmentIf your parents aren't
physicians, or if your parentsmaybe didn't go to college, you
(17:19):
may not know certain thingsExactly.
Keep going, keep going, sis.
You're cooking, you're cooking.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
You're cooking.
She's cooking, guys, she'scooking Come on, go at it, so
you know.
So I brought that to basicallytalk about the next point, which
that's where I got into mystory and I talked about how you
know, I was valedictorian of mypreschool class.
(17:43):
I had always been a very goodstudent.
I was the only student in myelementary school to get a
scholarship to a private highschool.
Once I did that, I graduatedsalutatorian.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I didn't know there was private high schools in
Brooklyn.
But go ahead, Get out of here.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You went to a private high school.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
In Newark Exactly.
I didn't know there wereprivate anything in Newark.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
All right, in Newark Exactly, I didn't know that
there were private anything inNewark, all right.
So, but I talked about that.
And then I talked about thefact that I graduated to
Ludatorian from that high schooland then went into college
thinking you know it's going togo great.
Well, by the end of my firstyear I had a 1.9 GPA.
You know me, the preschool, youknow valedictorian who would
(18:22):
have thought Like you know?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And so and I know a lot of people who have had that
experience- who actually saythat, yeah, I got a 1.9, but I
started off as the preschoolvaledictorian.
Damn, how did I go wrong.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Maybe not the preschool valedictorian?
How did I go wrong for?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
preschool.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I still have my sash somewhere that says
valedictorian, somewhere Like 12years, maybe 30 years.
All right, go ahead.
But you know, what I reallywanted to bring out from that
story was the fact that when Iwent to my pre-med advisor, the
person who was supposed to helpme what she basically told me
was, you know, that I shouldessentially do something else
(19:03):
but hold on.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Before you go there, you so what you leave, and I see
this is what I'm here for.
Okay, so you want me to tellthe whole story?
Well, tell the story and wait.
The way in which you told, likeyou, you went from you start
hold on.
I ain't say you can go.
Yeah, hold on a second.
That's part of the reason whyI'm here is because you're not.
You're as well.
So what was the feeling thatyou had when you had the 1-9?
Talk about that.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Well, the feeling that I had when I had the 1-9
was I actually was confused,right.
I didn't really know what wasgoing on.
I felt overwhelmed, I just feltlike okay, something's not
right and I really couldn'tunderstand, you know, the
feelings that I was having, andthe feelings that I was having
like what, and and the resultthat I was getting, like that,
to me, was just so what do youthink it was?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
was a test taking?
Do you think you weren't ready?
Do you think you were reallyinterested in that in bio at the
time, like hindsight, hindsight, I think.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
What it was was I really just had poor study
habits, at least for college see, this is what she said
yesterday, guys, and she'sleaving all this.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
So that's why I gotta , at least for college.
See, this is what she saidyesterday, guys, and she's
leaving all this.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So that's why I got to you.
Got to you know, but keep going.
So I think I had poor studyhabits, but that's hindsight.
So this is one nine.
At the end of your first year,at the end of my first year, and
so, talking to my pre-medadvisor, went into her office
and said to her you know, I feeloverwhelmed, I really don't
know what to do.
And she said well, you know,what do you want to do
eventually?
And I said well, I want to goto med school, I want to be a
(20:24):
doctor.
And she said looks at me, andshe goes hmm, maybe you should
go to dental school instead.
And then she goes no Hold upPause.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So at this point there is a bunch of people in
the audience who are likethey're kind of smirk and
they're like, oh snap, yeah,right, yeah, but keep going.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Then she says, well, maybe you should go to dental
school instead, and she goes,but that's hard to get into also
.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
And then there's that ooh in the room.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, and then she goes maybe you should go to
graduate school and do somethingelse.
That's literally the advicethat she and that's verbatim.
Like I want you to like, I needpeople to understand that
that's verbatim and the factthat I remember that verbatim it
literally, it literally is anindication that it left such a
(21:16):
negative impression on me.
You know that I rememberspecifically those words.
I was 18 years old, so at thepoint you were lost.
You know that I rememberspecifically those words.
I was 18 years old.
So at the point you were lost,you were overwhelmed and you
were going to her to try to findmaybe some type of lifeline or
something like that, somethingto you know someone to help me,
and she essentially didn't even,she didn't even give me a
chance, she didn't ask me well,what you know?
(21:38):
What's your problem?
What are you doing?
You know?
Speaker 1 (21:40):
tell me what your day is like, because a lot could
change after your first year.
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
And a lot did change.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
This is not your third year, your fourth year,
Well.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I mean.
I think it's important for usto realize that at 18 years old
we should not expect for peopleto have it all together.
That's an unrealisticexpectation.
There are responsibilities thatwe would never give an
18-year-old.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
All right, pause.
So let's go back into that wayhow you're answering the
question.
So once you said that part ofthe question, or you said that
part of the description of youbeing in an office, she's saying
look, it looks like med school,dental school.
That's too tough for you.
Maybe you need to do gradschool and so forth.
Why don't you go to keep goingwith the story?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
You got kicked out of school.
What happened?
No, I didn't get kicked out ofschool, so, but what I did say
was you know that, fortunately,you know, I had a way to to keep
going right, like my story isvery long and convoluted, um, so
I didn't go into the entirething but eventually I kept
going.
But my question, you know, tothe audience was well, what
about those people who didn'tkeep going?
(22:43):
What about those pre-meds whofall off and you never see them
again?
You actually never see themagain, right?
If I were that person, youwould literally never see me
again.
And we've got to understand thatas a profession, like, we have
to take a stake in recruitingpeople into our profession.
Like that's our responsibility.
(23:04):
Now there are some good, youknow pre-med advisors, but I
mean, let's face it, they don'tnecessarily have that big of a
stake in the game for us toreally outsource, you know, our
recruitment, and especially whenit comes to diversity
initiatives, something that isso very important, we don't, we
(23:25):
really shouldn't, outsource thatto a whole other profession,
which is the pre-med advisementprofession.
So I really think it's our youknow, it's our responsibility to
do that.
Then I told them about themedic program and I shouted out
you know the schools that are inthe medic program.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I think one of the things that you talked about was
pipeline programs.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
So why don't you talk briefly about what you
mentioned?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
there.
Yeah, I forgot about thatactually.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, I know you did.
That's why I'm here, Becauseyou know what I said.
Yes, I was watching, I was inawe.
Yo, I'm telling you she wascold guys.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yeah, so I talked about pipeline programs and
mentioned that the students whoare told that they are not going
to make it and they fall off,they don't even get an
opportunity to get into apipeline program.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Oftentimes, the people who actually even make it
to a pipeline program arepeople those are those B and C
students, maybe lower B range Cstudents, who just need a little
bit of a Of a boost.
Hey, what's going on?
Let me help you out.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Exactly, and they probably were going to figure it
out anyway.
They probably, even if theyweren't necessarily in a
pipeline program, they mighthave figured it out.
That was actually my case.
I was not in a pipeline program.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
So you said that specifically in the pipeline
programs.
What you're noticing is thoseare the students that would have
what they would have made itanyway.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Okay, they would have made it anyway, and so we've
lost a number of students whoactually did need that pipeline.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
So when you say that, are you saying that the people
who are in there shouldn't be inthose pipeline programs?
No, definitely not.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
No, I think pipeline programs are extremely important
and I don't want to take away,you know from people who have
gone through pipeline programsbecause guess what, While they
might have made it anyway, thisprobably shortened, you know,
the length of time for them toget there, probably shortened,
or it probably lessened the painfor them to get through there,
(25:19):
right?
Unlike me, I didn't go througha pipeline program, so that
probably lengthened the time forme to be able to figure out
what I was going to do.
Had I been in a pipelineprogram, yeah, I would have made
it anyway, but I maybe wouldhave made it in a shorter period
of time, right?
So I don't want to discountpipeline programs and say, oh
(25:41):
well, you know, they're not goodfor anything.
You're just preaching to thechoir.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
What do you think the leaders could do right now?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
then, so I think one of the things that the leaders
can do is they need to theyliterally need to take the reins
of recruitment.
Like it can't be this.
I feel like recruitment is verypassive, for lack of a better
word.
Right, we wait for the studentsto come to us.
Right, even if we go toorganizational conferences?
(26:14):
Right, we go to theorganizational conferences in
hopes that the students willcome to us.
Right, we might go to a schoolfair here and there, but let's
face it, there are over 3,000colleges around the country, so
we can't necessarily-.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
So you were proposing an active role, a very active
role.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Well, one of the roles that I propose is a
solution of my own, which is themedic program.
Right, Look at this ladytalking about the stuff that's
problem.
I got a solution, so you talkabout your medic app.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
So the reason why you talk about your medic app.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
You shouted out what's the schools that you
shouted out.
So I shouted out William Careyuniversity, uh, des Moines
university, kansas cityuniversity and Idaho college of
osteopath.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Why'd you shout them out?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I shouted them out because these are schools that
have invested in my program inparticular, but because they are
schools that literally aretaking the reins and saying we
are going to kind of noteliminate but we are going to
not necessitate the middleman ofthe pre-med advisor, right?
(27:20):
So I always encourage studentsto go to their pre-med advisors
good, bad or otherwise.
I say go to your pre-medadvisor because there is
something that you're going toneed from them and you need to
make sure that you cultivatethat relationship.
But at the same time Irecognize that there is value in
going straight to the source,going straight to the horse's
mouth.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
And the horse's mouth is the medical school.
So your app allows directcommunication between the
medical school and collegestudents, pre-medical students
non-traditional students.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Non-traditional students as well.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
And on your app you allow certain events like a
pre-med I talked about the Mockand Rock event.
Right.
So this is an opportunity forpre-meds who are using your app,
non-traditional students whoare using your app to go on the
app and get interviewed byphysicians, and other people who
are in the admissions committeeof medical schools.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Exactly Admissions committee folks, faculty medical
students.
So yeah, this is an opportunityfor them to literally interface
in ways that they otherwisewould not be able to interface,
you know, with pre-med students,right.
So you know, the schools andpre-meds need to be like, they
(28:33):
need to have that relationship,and right now they don't, and
the only time that they actuallydo is if the pre-med person,
right, if the pre-med individualis actually reaching out to the
school.
So there really isn't a very soyou're like the Uber.
Yes, You're like the Lyft.
I'm like the Uber and Lyft Ofmedical schools and stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
You're connecting people getting rid of the
middleman.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
The taxis and the taxis being the pre-med advisors
.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
The taxis and the taxis being the pre-med advisors
yeah, taking them places.
I'm just I'm not Meeting people.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Pre-med advisors are extremely important, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
But this is just a non-traditional way of looking
at communicating betweenpre-meds, as well as college or
medical schools.
Right, and medical schools.
I mean, it's just another wayto you know, or another added
thing that we can do to makethings better, because we've
(29:26):
been doing it this way for solong, but we still have issues
with diversity, and so I feellike we've been implementing the
same solutions over and over,thinking okay, well, one day it
will work, and it's like, butyou know it's not working, right
, I got you.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
All right, so let's shift a little bit.
It's not working Right.
I got you All right, so let'sshift a little bit.
So when they asked me, theyasked me in my work and teaching
about finances what impact haveI found on the high tuition of
many medical schools, includingosteopathic medical schools?
So my answer, which was not asgood as hers, I basically just
kind of listed some of thenumbers.
I said the average medicalschool debt is like $215,000.
If you combine average medicaldebt with average college debt
(30:01):
together, that's roughly around$240,000, $250,000.
And it takes roughly about 13years on average for people to
pay back their student loans.
And I also mentioned that.
I don't know if anybody knowswe're going to talk about this
on a future episode.
But Sally Mae, as well asNavient, they are the defendants
on a whole bunch of what do youcall those class action
(30:21):
lawsuits where they found outafter doing research is that
when you call Sally Mae orNavient and you are asking for
help, you're saying that youcan't make a certain payment.
You're struggling with making acertain payment.
There's a whole bunch ofdifferent options that they can
offer you, one of them beingsome type of income-based
repayment plan which is basedoff of how much money you're
(30:43):
bringing in.
Sometimes you may be allowed,based off of how much you're
making, to not even make anytype of payment, and that will
actually count towards thesignificant amount of payments
that you need to makeconsecutively to get your loan
repaid Without interest.
But what they found out afterinvestigating is that actually
the customer service workerswere shifting people to
(31:04):
forbearance.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Right, which is basically interest first.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Right, and it capitizes and all of these
different things.
That's what happened to me, soI can remember this specifically
me calling or excuse me, theycalling me and I'm ready to go
into a case or I'm doingsomething.
I'm just trying to get off thephone and I'm saying what
options do I have?
Because I cannot make any morepayments.
I'm struggling right now as aresident.
I can't make any payments andthey're saying, yeah, just
forbear, and that gets them offmy back for like three months,
(31:31):
six months, and then next year,you know, we're back at it again
and that's how someone'sstudent loan payment goes from
$240,000 to $330 thirty thousanddollars.
And what's that?
In five years?
Right, because that wegraduated in 2006.
That was 240 000 by the time wefinished all of our training in
2011 2012 we're at 330 000 each.
(31:51):
Yeah, that's a problem.
So I said that that has animpact on how, uh, medical
students choose the specialtiesthat they want to go into as a,
even where they're going topractice.
It affects the communitiesthey're going to practice in,
the hospitals they're going tosign on with, and I think, after
what we learned this year withCOVID and a whole bunch of other
different things, like theinterest of the hospital is not
(32:13):
necessarily interest of you.
It's definitely not probably inthe same interest of your
patients.
They want your patients to dowell, but that may not correlate
with standard of care, with howyou were trained right.
So how likely are you to standup to a hospital?
How likely are you going to beable to advocate for your
patients when you know thatthere's going to be some type of
financial implication for you,ie not being able to make a
(32:35):
student loan payment?
or you know justa significantchange in how you get paid which
is going to affect how you payyour student loans.
You know just a significantchange in how you get paid which
is going to affect how you payyour student loans, right?
So I think that you know.
There is no talk whatsoeverabout money in medical school.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yet when we get out into the real world, we are
expecting money like changes.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Money affects all of the decisions that we make and
it affects everything from A toZ.
So I think that we need to do abetter job.
We need to incorporate finance,some type of talk about money,
some type of talk about what arethese loans going to do with
you?
Maybe these are your options,Rather than save that for the
exit interview, your fourth year.
This needs to be incorporatedin Up front.
Up front In your first year,your second year, and there is
(33:15):
time, guys, there time to havethese type of courses and
classes or modules to do this.
But, as you can see, my answeris not as good as hers.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
No, I mean, I think you know, as far as as it
relates trying to figure out away, no as far as no.
I thought your answer wasactually really good.
I think what happened?
No, I'm not.
I think your answer wasactually really good.
I think that that's not.
You know, that's not a topicthat most people are really used
to hearing on the academic, youknow, on the academic side,
(33:44):
right.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Because I think the big thing that I notice is and
that's the easiest solution,right?
Because from my perspective,I'm not in the.
I'm not in the discussions onthe board, I'm not in
discussions on admissions, whereit just seems like medical
schools or colleges in generalincrease their tuition and they
know that automatically, all ofthese student loan services are
(34:05):
just going to be like, yeah,sure, no problem, which is
exactly what happens and it'slike well, but the body hasn't
changed, the body hasn't gottenmore complex, like our tuition
of $30,000 a year, why is it now$50,000 a year?
The body hasn't transformedinto something else.
So where is all this money, allthis money going to?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Right, why am I paying more?
Yeah, so I think that'sprobably one of the hardest
things I think to change is theinflation that's going on with
with college colleges, as wellas medical student tuition rates
.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
But at least we got to prepare them and let them
know like this is the this isgoing to happen and this is how
you are supposed to deal with it.
Right, you know to happen andthis is how you are supposed to
deal with it.
One of the things that, as youwere talking about that, I was
thinking how do we expect peopleto give really good care to
(34:54):
patients when really, whatthey're thinking about is how
they're going to make their nextpayment?
What they're thinking about ishow they're going to make their
next payment, how they're, youknow, if they're choosing jobs
just based on well, I got to paythe bills, or they're leaving
jobs because the job doesn't payenough.
Right, Like how many times haveyou, you know, maybe heard a
physician say, like well, youknow they're, they're not really
(35:15):
paying much over here, so Ihave to take another job, and
it's like like wow, what animpact that that might have on
this community.
What impact might that have on?
Speaker 1 (35:24):
that on the student body, because sometimes you're
talking about academics as well,who are leaving their job.
I also think that the issuethat we fail to bring up is what
about the what could be, thewhat ifs that this person could
do, like what if they wanted totake a year off and go do some
work in a different country,some medical, humanitarian work?
(35:45):
Or what if they wanted to takesome time off and work on some
type of I don't know some typeof community service?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Or some innovation.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
What if they wanted to take a chance to do some type
of innovation?
Or what if they wanted to goback to a medical school and
just be a teacher there, andmaybe the pay is not as good as
them working clinically, butthis is what they want to do.
But because of that mental math, that mathematics, it doesn't
work out.
And that's what I think is thebiggest issue is, is that we're
talking about leadership.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
We're talking about oh yeah, as a physician, you
could do anything you want, butwe're not properly preparing,
yeah, we're not looking at thewhole scope, right?
So now, ok, let's, let's, let'sput on our osteopathic hats,
right, let's put on ourosteopathic hats because you
know in in our profession, right, we are taught, it's embedded.
(36:34):
You know in our curriculum, weare taught, it's embedded.
You know in our curriculum,it's drilled into us that it is
very important to take the wholebody as a unit, right?
And so if the whole body is aunit-.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
She about to take the osteopathic profession to
church.
All right, let's go ahead.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
If the whole body is a unit, right, we can't just
apply that to patients.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
She's cooking y'all.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Okay, we can't just apply that to patients.
She's cooking y'all.
Okay, we can't just apply thatto patients.
She's cooking.
This, you know, the whole the,the body as a unit, is literally
about life, that's how I see it.
Gotcha, I see it as about life,right.
So you know, we are taught thatwhen a patient comes in, that
even though they're coming inand maybe their arm hurts as
they're walking into the room,you should be looking at them,
(37:14):
you should be looking at theirgait, you should be looking at
their demeanor, you should belooking at pretty much
everything about this patient.
Well, what about our doctors?
Right, are we looking ateverything about our doctors?
Are we considering their mentalhealth?
Are we considering theirfinancial situations?
Are we considering the thingsthat will impact our doctor's
(37:37):
ability to be able to be attheir very, very best?
Speaker 1 (37:42):
No.
So the question is is that thejob of the medical school?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Well, I would argue that it is.
So if your goal is to put outphysicians who are going to be
competent, who are going to bewilling and able to practice,
then I think you need to look atthe entire physician's
situation to say how best can Igive, like, what are the best
tools and resources that I cangive them to be able to take
(38:13):
care of communities?
Because that's what medicalschools report that they are.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
I think any type of industry needs to learn how to
adapt right.
We see that in so manydifferent successful companies,
organizations or evenprofessions.
When things occur, they adapt,they change and so forth.
And I think, with all of thesedifferent doctors and all of
these different medical studentsand residents talking about
side hustle culture and going onand doing stuff with social
(38:38):
media, what that's saying isthat, listen, what we are
getting probably is not enoughand I need more.
I need more preparation on ANeed people where they're at.
I need this, I need that.
So basically all of this stuff,I think, is a symptom that the
way in which we're educating, orthere needs to be more
additional things that we'redoing to prepare residents,
(39:00):
doctors, medical students forbasically a different world
right.
Like we're still kind oftraining them for like world,
like 30, 40, 50 years ago whenthings have completely changed.
right, when the average medicalschool debt in 1999 was like 150
, no, actually I think it wasless than that, right, but the
stakes weren't as high as theyare now Right.
And you're not dealing with.
(39:21):
You know, back then thelikelihood of you going into
private practice was much higherthan it is now, right, right.
So now you're going into asituation where you're basically
almost a high paid employee.
So the stakes are way highernow than they were 10 years ago,
20 years ago and 30 years ago.
So that's my thought, I thinkit is, I think it's it's.
They don't have to, but I thinkthey should in order to keep up
(39:43):
with current times and for usto continue to, you know,
basically evolve.
Otherwise, if we don't evolve,then we don't have that other
issue where other you knowwhat's the way I want to say
other um, like nurses and nursepractitioners and physician
assistants.
They will take over becausepeople will be fleeing our
(40:03):
occupation.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Right, and they're like well, they'll see the
opportunity in our, in the, inthe cracks right of our
profession.
Well, I will tell you this Iwas, I was definitely encouraged
by the fact that that questioneven came up at an educational,
at an academic conference.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Right, because it's almost like you just pay the
price to be in the game andthat's it Right.
Instead of just like hey, let'sactually inquire, like why is
it so high?
And try to figure out why it'sso high and let's talk about it
Before.
It's almost like I mean this isjust what it is to be so high
and let's talk about it before.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
it's almost like I mean this is just what it is to
be a doctor and that's itexactly move on, let's go from
there yeah, so I was justencouraged that, you know,
especially on that panel whichwas unopposed, and it brought
everybody to the table you knowto to hear and and kind of you
know, get their wheels turningabout this issue.
I was really encouraged that ithappened at this particular
(40:59):
conference.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
Shout out to Kenneth Durgans, who was there from.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
KCU.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
What's his official title?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
So he is the, I believe, the vice provost of
diversity at KCU.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, and also shout out to Dr Rance McClain at KCU.
Yeah, and also shout out to DrRance McClain who was our
professor?
When we were in medical schoolfrom 2002 to 2006.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
He's now at ARCOM in Arkansas.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah, so what's the full name?
Speaker 2 (41:26):
I believe it's Arkansas College of Osteopathic
Medicine.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
I believe so.
So he's there.
I think he's the dean there now.
Yes, he's the dean Big Tings,first of all if any of his
students are listening.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
He really made it clear that he wanted us to let
you know that we thought he wasactually one of the coolest
professors in med school.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
He really was.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
He was a cool professor.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
His pants game needed some help, but he was excellent
.
He was a really good professor.
I remember he actually hoodedme and that picture is sitting
in my mama's living room so Iwas telling him that he says
that he hoods so many people andhe white coats so many people.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
It's hard to keep track of all of these different
things, but I told him.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
I was like look, we're part of your legacy and
that's the teach.
One is yeah, although you don'tlike have these, you know
unique, special relationshipsthat go for a long way you know
you still have an effect onfolks and they're going to
affect other people and it allcomes back to you and you know.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Explain to the pre-meds what hooding is,
because they may not know whatthat means yeah, so pre-meds, uh
.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
So when you start medical school, there's this, um
, there's this, uh, what do youcall it?
There's this ceremony.
The first thing is there's this, what do you call it?
Speaker 2 (42:35):
There's this ceremony ?
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Yeah, the first thing is the white coat ceremony
there's this ceremony called thewhite coat ceremony, where you
actually get a white coat that'sput on you.
You have to say the HippocraticOath.
If you're an osteopath, you saythe.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Osteopathic Oath.
You say the Osteopathic Oath.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Like what Right?
And it basically kind of is aceremony that kind of starts the
process of you, you know, justbeing involved in a profession
of being a physician.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
But there's, someone.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Someone.
You invite, someone who wasmonumental in you becoming a
doctor.
You get a doctor and they comeand they put the white coat on
you.
That means something and then,when you graduate, four years
later, you could invite anotherphysician to put your hood on
you right your graduation hoodyeah.
Your graduation hood on you andfor me.
I had Dr Dale Sanders, as wellas Dr Rance McClain, who put the
(43:22):
hood on me.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yeah, and you get to, especially for the hooding.
Most students will actuallychoose that doctor, and so for
the white coat ceremony you maynot know someone, so that person
is usually designated for you,but for the hooding, because you
may not know someone, so thatperson is usually designated for
you, but for the hoodingbecause you've gone through four
years of medical school.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Oh, we've been through it.
Oh yeah, man yeah.
You actually invited a doctor,I was going to invite Dr Dre.
I was like you need to come andhood me, Dr Dre, Come on no you
weren't the rapper Dr Dre.
I know, I know, I know that'swhat you're talking about.
(44:19):
No, you weren't Anyway but yeah, so that's what hooding is, and
you know it just shows fouryears, so I felt like that was a
good honor to bestow upon him.
Yeah, he was lucky to get thathe was lucky he was lucky to get
that.
I don't know what's up with thelights.
I don't know why the lightskeep coming up and on, alfred's
gonna have to fix that, butanyway.
So, listen, I think that ispretty much it.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
We got to get on a plane, yeah we got to get on a
plane, we got to get out of here.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
So listen everyone, make sure you check out
locumstorycom so you can figureout more stories, more unbiased
information about how locumsworks, how to basically
incorporate how one locumscompany will work with another
locums company, and also checkout this right here AACOM
Educating Leaders Conferencethat happens on a yearly basis.
(45:00):
Check out Metta Christie DrMetta Christie and what she
meant to the OsteopathicCommittee and we're going to get
back to our normal scheduledepisodes after this and we'll go
from there.
Anything else you want to say.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
No, I just you know I'm excited to get back to our
kids.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, they're waiting for us.
Earplugs ready to go.
All right, y'all, we'll catchyou guys on the next one.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Peace.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Peace.
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