Ep 15-The Sound of Violence: An AuD Killer

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What happens when THC levels reach 95%? A young audiologist's world shattered after just two hits from a marijuana bong sent her into a violent psychosis that left her boyfriend dead with 108 stab wounds. 

When police responded to a domestic disturbance call in Thousand Oaks, California, they discovered a scene straight from a nightmare – a bloody body on the floor, a woman stabbing herself repeatedly in the neck, and eight officers unable to subdue her even after multiple taser deployments. The woman was Bryn Spejcher, a 27-year-old audiologist who had been living what many would consider an ordinary life just hours before.

Experts revealed how modern cannabis bears little resemblance to the relatively mild marijuana of decades past. With THC concentrations soaring from 3-4% in the 1970s to potentially 40% or higher today, users face risks that many don't comprehend until it's too late. Cannabis-induced psychosis – a condition where marijuana triggers severe hallucinations, delusions, and complete disconnection from reality – can happen to anyone given a high enough dose, regardless of prior mental health.

The case illuminates a troubling intersection of recreational drug use, mental health, and legal accountability. While Spejcher was ultimately convicted of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to probation rather than prison, the incident transformed multiple lives forever. Chad O'Melia's family lost a beloved son, while Spejcher lost her career and now lives with the knowledge of what happened during her psychotic break. Perhaps most disturbing is the revelation that up to half of those who experience cannabis-induced psychosis may later develop chronic psychotic disorders, raising urgent questions about marijuana regulation in an era of expanding legalization.

Have you or someone you know experienced unexpected reactions to cannabis? Share your thoughts and follow us for more eye-opening explorations of medical cases that challenge our understanding of mind, body, and responsibility.

Sources: The majority of sources for this episode were obtained from The Dr. Phil Podcast, episode 265 (two parts), entitled Marijuana’s Lethal Consequences: The Exclusive Interview with Bryn Spejcher. 

Court Documents from Ventura County, including the Appellant’s Brief 

 Electronically FILED on 12/3/2024 by Adriana Winters, Deputy Clerk 

FactTit+2Fox 21 News+2WATE+2

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Amanda Jenna.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Heyo, how you doing.
I'm doing fabulous.
How are you I?

Speaker 1 (00:09):
am like the spring I am reborn, I am alive.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
The sunshine is giving me life.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yes, I am post pneumonia Currently trying to
get enough energy to standupright all day without passing
out.
But we'll get there.
We'll get there.
Small goals, it does help thatit was like I know we're such
Minnesotans we have to talkabout the weather every time,
but I mean, it's so true 80degrees today, holy moly.

(00:38):
Yes, please Open toast.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
I know, yes, and I was texting with some of my
friends in Duluth and I was like, oh my God, you guys, this
weather is giving me life.
And then I was like, oh gosh, Imean, it is like nice for up
there, I guess, but it's like 30degrees colder, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
I mean here we are in the balmy South, Like Southern
Minnesota is so nice.
Yeah, I mean we don't have thebeautiful scenery that they do.
I mean we have a lot ofcornfields but I will say I
don't mind me some cornfields ifI can sit on my deck and soak
up a little 80 degree vitamin D.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
I know, and me and my doggie have been outside as
much as we can.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Well, oh, I have a correction section.
So last week I claimed that Ifound an article, or, yeah, that
I found a case, uh, but I lied,it wasn't me.
This case that I'm going totalk about today was recommended
by a fellow audiologist andformer student of mine, samantha

(01:45):
.
Oh, samantha, yeah, samanthasent the article to me and said
do you want to do this?
And I went down a rabbit hole.
So, thank you, samantha, ohnice.
She said that her supervisor ingrad school went to school with
the defendant that we're goingto be talking about in this case
.
So shout out to.
Sam, I'm so proud of you, girl.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Sam, thank you.
I actually love it when peoplesend us a case ideas.
I have gotten a lot.
Some of them are not closedcases yet, so I we haven't been
able to cover them.
So if you sent me something andyou're like, why isn't she
doing that, it's because it'sit's still ongoing.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Which I guess we could do it.
Ongoing, yeah, I, I mean.
So here's the thing is, we dohave a patreon we're about to
launch, so I mean, we do want tohear from you guys maybe that
could be our bonus content likemore current event stuff,
updates on other cases.
Um, amanda and I just likeshooting the bull, I don't know.
Um, just let us know what youwant to hear for Patreon, so,
but I think that's a good ideatoo.

(02:46):
Is like more recent stuff thatwe can just kind of build on as
extra content for our listeners.
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So trigger warning for today.
So, uh, trigger warning fortoday.
Our episode contains referencesto drug use, descriptions of
self-harm and a brief referenceof harm to an animal.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Oh yeah, um, can I make a quick insert because I
just remembered when you startedreading the coffee thing.
But you guys, I posted a pollon social media for the organox
and the paragonics, um, liverguard, did you see it?
No, I learned how to put myaudio over like scrolling, like

(05:12):
a recording on my phone, um, andso anyway, you guys, the poll
is out there, and the pollquestion was these are cute,
right, and answers are eitheryes or no, and the only answer
obviously is yes.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
So oh my goodness, that orange and and white thing
that preserves livers and stuff.
Oh my gosh, okay.
Is that on instagram, on ourinstagram, facebook, and tiktok
doctoring the truth podcast atinstagram and doctoring the
truth at facebook.
Oh my goodness, okay, I can't.
I can, I take the poll too?

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yes, please, everybody take the poll.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yes, I love it.
Okay, and then we'll we'll getthe results at our next episode.
That's awesome.
Thank you for doing that.
So, for sources for this episode, the majority of them were
obtained from and it's notbecause I'm a huge fan, but the
Dr Phil podcast, episode 265,because it was a two-part
episode entitled Marijuana'sLethal Consequences the

(06:10):
exclusive interview with BrynSpacer.
It was basically 80 minutes ofher talking about this incident,
and so that's why.
And then court documents fromVentura County, including the
appellant's brief that we'regoing to talk about at the end,
and then there's a ton ofdifferent news sources and
articles that will be listed onour show notes, okay, okay.

(06:30):
So on may 27th 2018, a policedispatcher received a call for
domestic disturbance.
Deputies were utterly unpreparedfor what they found when they
arrived at the condominium atThousand Oaks in California.
A male's bloody body laylifeless on the living room
floor by the stairs in a pool ofblood, with multiple apparent

(06:53):
stab wounds.
A young woman writhed on thefloor across from him, screaming
and covered in blood, with aknife in each hand.
Her screams were primal andhair-raising.
Blood covered the surfaces ofthe walls and the carpets,
chairs and furniture looked likethey'd been tossed in a tornado
and a husky dog lay whining andpanting with an apparent stab

(07:16):
wound in its chest.
The deputies called for backup.
As the woman repeatedly stabbedherself in the neck with a
serrated kitchen knife, eightofficers attempted to restrain
her.
They tased the woman to try toget her to release the knives
from her grip.
Once, twice, three times, fourtimes no avail.

(07:37):
A police officer then wieldedhis metal baton, striking the
woman's arms, shoulders andhands, trying to remove the
knives.
He later shared that this wasthe first time he'd ever used
his baton during his career andthat he suffered PTSD from the
incident.
He ultimately was able toretrieve the knives after
hitting this woman nine times,breaking her wrist and her

(07:59):
fingers in the process.
She later thanked him forsaving her life.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Oh my good, holy heavens.
Okay, I know we just started,but did I hook you in?
Yes, I know that you all can'tsee me, but she could probably
see me.
And it was like grabbing myface, then covering my mouth and
, oh my god, my hands were inthe air and I thought, oh my
gosh, I should start recordingthis because it'd be funny to

(08:25):
post on social media media.
But I didn't want to record youwithout your consent, so anyway
.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Oh, I always have my consent, especially now that I
don't have pneumonia faceanymore.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
All right, so Okay, tell us what happens next.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
So this woman was Bryn Spacer, a 27 year old
audiologist.
Bryn Spacer was born in January1991 in Illinois and grew up in
the northwest suburban town ofBloomingdale.
She was raised in a close-knitfamily with her parents, michael
Spacer and Lori Pierce, andthree brothers, glenn, kevin and
Daniel.
From an early age, bryn wasdiagnosed with hearing loss and

(09:01):
began wearing hearing aids atthe age of four.
Spacer's hearing loss was aresult of complications from a
neonatal procedure calledextracorporeal membrane
oxygenation or ECMO, which sheunderwent shortly after birth.
Ecmo is a heart-lung bypasstreatment used for critically
ill newborns, but it carries aknown risk of causing

(09:22):
sensorineural hearing loss.
As a consequence, bryndeveloped a significant hearing
impairment early in her life.
Her hearing loss contributed toa sheltered upbringing, as she
often avoided overwhelmingsituations due to her hearing
impairment.
Friends and family describedher as naive and having lived a
sheltered life.
Court records stated that Brynhad a cochlear implant to help

(09:43):
her hear.
Despite her challenges, bryndeveloped a passion for helping
others with similar disabilities.
She pursued a higher educationand earned her doctoral degree
in audiology from WashingtonUniversity in St Louis.
In a 2016 video, she expressedher eagerness to work with
hearing loss patients, statingI'm excited to become an

(10:04):
audiologist.
I'm ready and I want to workwith patients who have hearing
loss.
I want to give them hearingaids.
I want to give them cochlearimplants.
I want to be the bestaudiologist that I can be.
After completing her education,brynn moved to Los Angeles to
begin her career as anaudiologist, and she was
accompanied by her hearingservice dog, aria, and they
spent much of their free time ata dog park in Thousand Oaks.

(10:26):
There she met Chad Amelia, ayoung accountant, with whom she
began a romantic relationship.
Chad Brandon Amelia was bornSeptember 27, 1991, in Santa
Clarita, california, and wasraised in the Newhall area
alongside his younger brother,shane.
He attended PeachlandElementary School and later

(10:46):
graduated from Hart High School,where he was an active member
of the football team.
Chad's father, sean Amelia,described him as someone who
could connect with anyone, oftenseeking out individuals who
appeared alone at gatherings tomake them feel included.
He was known for his friendly,welcoming nature and is a deep
appreciation for his Irishheritage.
After high school, chad pursueda career in accounting, working

(11:11):
for a firm in Camarillo,california, and studying to
become a certified publicaccountant.
He was described by friends andfamily as hardworking,
dedicated and someone with abright future ahead of him.
Chad met Spacer at a dog parkin Ventura County a few weeks
before his death.
The couple spent considerabletime together in his final weeks

(11:33):
.
His untimely death had aprofound impact on his family,
with his mother, michelle Larive, reportedly falling into a
depression and passing awaywithin years of Chad's death.
So back to the night in question.
At 10 30 pm, bryn took herservice dog, anya, to the second

(11:55):
floor of Chad's condo.
Chad also had a dog whose namewas Athena.
Chad and Bryn sat on the couchand chatted for a few hours and
then he said he wanted to getready for bed and he needed to
smoke a bit to unwind.
He went out onto the patio andshe joined him, as she knew it
would take him a while to smokeand she didn't want to sit in
the living room on her ownwaiting for him.
He had a bong.

(12:16):
She asked him for a hit he wasexcited to share.
She'd smoked from a bong a weekprior, but had only smoked pot a
handful of times before that.
She'd never reacted before.
She took a hit, coughed andasked for water.
He laughed.
He then remarked how high hewas and she said she didn't feel
much.
He was shocked.
He said oh okay, well, let'smake this intense for you.

(12:38):
She was skeptical and wasn'tsure if he was kidding.
He grabbed something from hisdrug kit and added it to his
bong.
She noticed that he'd puffedaway and created something that
looked like a milky smoke.
She didn't feel like smokingmore, but he rushed her and
waved the bong in her face.
She felt pressured.
Hurry, you have to inhale now,quickly, he urged.
She obliged for two hits.

(13:02):
Immediately she felt differentand began having a scary
reaction.
She felt intense burning in herthroat and lungs and began
tearing up and felt the need tovomit, which was intense.
She left the chair on thebalcony and tried to drink water
, but it stuck in her throat.
She went to the bathroom to tryand induce vomiting.
She noted that Chad appeared inand out of her peripheral
vision.
She asked for an inhalerbecause she had asthma, but he

(13:24):
didn't have one to offer her.
He left bottles of water on thesink.
She tried to talk but couldn'tseem to form coherent sentences.
She tried to lie down on thecouch and vertigo set in.
Chad came up to her face andpoured water on it, began asking
her questions and came in andout of her line of vision.
Brynn said he kept laughing ather and told her to close her

(13:46):
eyes and sleep.
She remembers trying to ask himstay awake in case I choke to
death.
This was the last consciousmemory that she had.
She began to have visions, asif she was looking down on her
own body and she felt paralyzed.
She started thinking she wasdead.
She heard various people cryingover her dead body, including
her mother.
She notes that the next phase ofher experience was traumatic,

(14:09):
as if she were watching someoneelse doing all of these horrible
things.
There were no thoughts, noemotions, no morality.
She stated she was watching asif she were a zombie.
She describes it as if lookingthrough a TV screen.
She said quote the screenturned towards the kitchen and
the two hands grabbed two knivesfrom the knife block on the

(14:30):
counter.
She noted that she watched thehands throw the knives at Chad.
Then it grabbed another twoknives and kept them in its
hands.
The screen moved to walk out ofthe kitchen and the left hand
stabbed a brown dog, which wasChad's dog.
The screen moved towards Chadon the other side of the dining
table.
He was just standing there.

(14:51):
As I got closer to him.
I saw the knife in the lefthand stab him in the abdomen.
Then it just went black.
The next thing I remember thescreen popped back open again.
His body was on the floor andthen my body or the screen, fell
to the floor.
Then I heard the roommate sayBrynn, what are you doing?

(15:11):
And the screen turned 180degrees and saw the roommate at
the top of the stairs.
And then the screen turned backand I saw the hands continue to
hurt Chad and then it would goblack and I would hear voices
keep going Don't stop, you'realmost there, you can do this.
And there were more encouragingwords for I don't know what.
And then the next thing Iremember was seeing the knives

(15:32):
aimed at my throat, and that'swhen I was trying to hurt myself
.
The more pain that was in mythroat, the more it was like I
was in a doctor's room and theywere trying to rescue me.
I remember screaming,everything going black, and then
the throat thing where I felt Iwas helping staff rescue me as
long as I could stab straightinto my neck.
At this point Dr Philinterjected.
Sometimes when, amid acutepsychosis, extreme pain can help

(15:55):
bring a person back to reality.
And Bryn responded the more Istabbed myself, the more I felt
I was getting myself back tolife.
And Bryn responded the more Istabbed myself, the more I felt
I was getting myself back tolife.
Spacer was then transported toLos Robles Regional Medical

(16:16):
Center, where she underwentsurgery and spent four days
recovering from self-inflictedinjuries, including neck wounds.
I think there were 48 stabwounds and a broken arm
sustained during the arrest.
On June 1st 2018, after herrelease from the hospital,
spacer was arrested and chargedwith first-degree murder.
Her bail was set at $500,000,and she was scheduled for
arraignment on June 4.
During the investigation,spacer reported experiencing

(16:36):
hallucinations and delusionsafter consuming high-potency
marijuana, leading to the fatalattack.
Both defense and prosecutionexperts concluded that she
suffered from cannabis-inducedpsychosis.
Consequently, the charge wasreduced to involuntary
manslaughter.
In December 2023, spacer wasconvicted of involuntary

(16:56):
manslaughter and in January 2024, she was sentenced to three
years of probation and 100 hoursof community service.
She had spent six days in jailand was required to attend a
52-week course in domesticviolence prevention.
She stated she was shocked atthe sentencing and that she was
sure she would go to prison andhad been researching how to

(17:17):
survive in the prison system.
So cannabis-induced psychosisis this a thing you know?
In my mind, I was like thinkingof marijuana as something like
the old 1970s 1980s moviesCheech and Chong everyone's
relaxed laid back hippy-dippy,but apparently it is a thing.

(17:39):
So cannabis-induced psychosis isa rare but clinically
recognized condition in whichthe use of cannabis, especially
the high-potency strains,triggers acute psychotic
symptoms like hallucinations,delusions, paranoia and
disorganized thinking.
As Dr Phil put it, it's notyour grandma's marijuana anymore
.
In the 60s and 70s the strengthof THC in marijuana was 3 to 4%

(18:05):
.
Now it can be 35 to 40% andsome products manage to deliver
as high as 95%.
So here's a little moreinformation into the science
behind cannabis-inducedpsychosis.
It's classified under theSubstance Medication Induced
Psychotic Disorders in the DSM-5, which is the Diagnostic and

(18:25):
Statistical Manual of MentalDisorders.
It's diagnosed when psychoticsymptoms occur during or soon
after cannabis use and symptomsare severe enough to impair
functioning and the episode isnot better explained by a
pre-existing mental disorder.
Key symptoms are visual,auditory and tactile
hallucinations.

(18:46):
Delusions, especially paranoidor persecutory.
Sounds good.
Delusions yeah, I'll go withthat.
Disorganized thinking or speech, severe agitation, fear or
confusion and loss of insight orawareness of reality.
The biological mechanism of THCand dopamine dysregulation is

(19:06):
that the psychoactive compoundin cannabis, which is
tetrahydrocannabinol, thc,activates CB1 receptors in the
brain's endocannabinoid system.
This interaction disruptsdopamine transmission pathways
in the brain, particularly inthe mesolimbic pathway which is
implicated in psychosis.

(19:27):
The overstimulation of thisreward slash motivation system
may lead to abnormal salienceattribution, which is a hallmark
of psychotic thinking.
So the endocannabinoid systemis the body's natural
cannabinoids that regulate mood,cognition and perception.
Thc hijacks this system,especially in vulnerable

(19:48):
individuals, leading tomisperception of reality.
There are some risk factors.
Some individuals are morelikely to experience
cannabis-induced psychosis dueto a combination of biological
and environmental factors suchas frequent or heavy use,
personal or family history ofmental illness, particularly
schizophrenia or bipolardisorder, polysubstance abuse,

(20:11):
trauma or stress, and then highTHC concentration, especially
over 10% THC.
So high potency cannabis isoften linked to what they call
skunk varieties.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
I don't know if that's because how it smells I
always thought and like my, myknowledge base is not big in
this area but I always thoughtif it was like skunky or
smelling, then it wasn't as good.
But that's opposite, I guess.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
Huh yeah, I don't know.
Yeah, uh, so skunk varietiesare linked to a greater risk of
developing psychosis, and dailyusers of high potency cannabis
are up to five times more likelyto experience psychotic
disorders compared to non-users.
And then early and frequent use.
So initiating cannabis useduring adolescence and engaging
in frequent use are significantfactors for developing cannabis

(20:57):
induced psychosis.
Cannabis-induced psychosis itusually resolves within days to
weeks after stopping usingcannabis, but some individuals
develop a persistent psychosisor are later diagnosed with
schizophrenia spectrum disorders, and around 25 to 50% of
first-time cannabis-inducedpsychosis patients later develop

(21:17):
chronic psychotic disorders,especially with repeated
exposure, which is so scary, Ican't yeah.
Treatment.
Immediate care often involvesantipsychotic medications like
olanzapine, risperidone andbenzodiazepines for agitation.
Long-term management includespsychoeducation about the

(21:40):
substance, risks, abstinencefrom cannabis and monitoring for
the development ofschizophrenia and other
psychotic disorders, as well aspsychotherapy and psychiatric
follow-up.
While causality is debated,there is a strong correlation
between cannabis use andincreased risk of psychosis,
particularly in vulnerableindividuals.
Particularly in vulnerableindividuals, studies from

(22:04):
countries with legal cannabishave reported higher rates of
emergency room visits forcannabis-related psychosis
following legalization.
Ongoing research is focusing ongenetic predispositions and the
threshold of THC concentrationthat significantly increases
psychosis risk.
Individuals with specificgenetic variation, such as in
the AKT1 and COMT genes, may bemore susceptible to this.

(22:29):
There's a rising incidence inDenmark.
A study analyzed data from 1994to 2016 in Denmark and found
that the annual incidence ofcannabis induced psychosis
increased from 2.8 to 6.1 per100,000 persons.
This rise coincided with anincrease in dual diagnoses of
schizophrenia and cannabis usedisorder.

(22:49):
Global risk estimatesapproximately 1% of regular
cannabis users may develop thispsychosis over a 10-year period.
Especially when factors likehigh THC potency, early onset of
use and genetic predispositionsare present, there is a risk of
transition to schizophrenia.

(23:09):
Up to 50% of individualshospitalized for
cannabis-related psychoticsymptoms may later be diagnosed
with schizophrenia.
A 2019 meta-analysis reportedthat 34% of those with
cannabis-induced psychosistransitioned to schizophrenia,
which is a higher rate comparedto psychosis induced by
hallucinogens, which is 26%, oramphetamines, which is 22%.

(23:32):
Psychotic symptoms oftenresolve within days to weeks
after stopping cannabis use, butin some cases, symptoms may
persist, which lead, as wetalked about, to a diagnosis of
a chronic psychotic disorder.
Treatment approaches typicallyinvolve antipsychotic
medications, psychotherapy andeducation on the risks
associated with cannabis use.
Abstinence from cannabis iscrucial to prevent recurrence,

(23:56):
and now it's time for a chart nochart.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
No, oh, I got froggy there.
Just get another one in theregood for you.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Um okay, alley cats.
Welcome to the chart notesegment, where we learn about
what's happening in medicine andhealth care.
So a few weeks ago, mitTechnology Review published a
piece on bodyoids.
Have you heard of?
This no, bodyoids are livingbodies that cannot think or feel
pain, so in this piece, a trioof experts argue that advances

(24:34):
in biotechnology will soon allowus to create spare human bodies
that could be used for researchor to provide organs for
donation.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Hey, then we don't have to sell them on the black
market y'all, we can come backto these body parts.
What is this?
What is this trend?
I think like the universe wantsus to create a process for the
tracking, because I loved theidea.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah right, all right .
So if you find your skincrawling at this point, you're
not the only one.
It's such a creepy idea.
Yeah right, alright.
So if you find your skincrawling at this point, you're
not the only one.
It's such a creepy idea.
It's straight from the morehorrible corners of science
fiction.
But suspend your disbelief fora minute, because bodyoids could
be used for good.
And if they're truly unawareand unable to think, the use of
bodyoids wouldn't crosseveryone's ethical lines,

(25:18):
although that's what the authorsof this article argue, but I'm
not so sure.
The idea is already stirringplenty of ethical debate and
controversy.
One of the main arguments madefor bodyoids is that they could
provide spare human organs.
There's a huge shortage oforgans for transplantation.
More than 100,000 people in theUS are waiting for a transplant
, and 17 people on that waitinglist die every day.

(25:42):
Human body oids could serve asa new source.
One approach to the shortage oforgans is the use of
gene-edited animal organs.
Animal organs don't typicallylast inside human bodies.
Our immune systems reject themas foreign, but a few companies
are creating pigs with a seriesof gene edits that make their
organs more acceptable to humanbodies.
A handful of living people havereceived gene-edited pig organs

(26:06):
.
David Bennett Sr was the firstperson to get a gene-edited pig
heart in 2022, and RichardSlayman was the first to get a
kidney in early 2024.
But unfortunately both men diedaround two months after their
surgery.
But Tawana Looney, the thirdliving person to receive a
gene-edited pig kidney, has beendoing well.
She had her transplant surgeryin late November of last year.

(26:29):
Quote I'm full of energy.
I've got an appetite I've neverhad in eight years.
End quote.
She said at the time Quote Ican put my hand on this kidney
and feel it buzzing.
End quote.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Oh, get it girl.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
She returned it buzzing, end quote.
Oh, get it, girl.
She returned home in february.
At least one company is takingmore of a body like approach.
Renewal bio is a biotechcompany based in israel that
hopes to grow embryo stageversions of people for
replacement organs.
Their approach is based onadvances in the development of
synthetic embryos, and syntheticembryosos is a term that a lot
of scientists hate, but it's thebest way for at least my lay

(27:07):
person to understand whatthey're talking about.
So embryos start with the unionof an egg cell and a sperm cell,
but scientists have beenworking on ways to make embryos
using stem cells instead.
So under the right conditions,these cells can divide into
structures that look a lot likea typical embryo.
Scientists don't know how farthese embryo-like structures
will be able to develop, butthey've already been using them

(27:29):
to try and get cows and monkeyspregnant.
What the fuck?
I know?
Gotta start somewhere, right,oh God.
No one really knows how tothink about synthetic human
embryos.
Scientists don't even reallyknow what to call them.
How to think about synthetichuman embryos?
Scientists don't even reallyknow what to call them.
Rules stipulate that typicalhuman embryos may be grown in
the lab for a maximum of 14 days.
Should the same rules apply tosynthetic ones?

(27:50):
Synthetic embryos made withouteggs and sperm are looking
increasingly like the real thing, raising thorny ethical
questions, to say the least.
The very existence of syntheticembryos is throwing into
question our understanding ofwhat a human embryo even is.
Is it the thing that's onlygenerated from the fusion of a
sperm and an egg?
Naomi Morris, a developmentalbiologist at the Crick Institute

(28:12):
in London, asked Is itsomething to do with the cell
type it possesses or the shapeof the structure?
The authors of the new MITtechnology review piece also
point out that such body oidscould help speed scientific and
medical research.
At the moment, most drugresearch has to be conducted in
lab animals before clinicaltrials can start, but non-human

(28:33):
animals may not respond the sameway people do, and the vast
majority of treatments that looksuper promising in mice fail in
humans.
Such research can feel like awaste of both animal lives and
time.
Scientists have also beenworking on solutions to these
problems.
Some are creating organs onchips, which are miniature
collections of cells organizedon a small piece of polymer that

(28:56):
may resemble full-size organsand can be used to test the
effects of drugs.
Others are creating digitalrepresentations of human organs
for the same purpose.
Such digital twins can beextensively modeled and
potentially used to run clinicaltrials in silico.
Both of these approaches seemsomehow more palatable to me
personally than runningexperiments on a human created

(29:18):
without the capacity to think orfeel pain.
When it comes to real-worldbiotechnology, though, our
feelings about what's acceptabletend to shift.
In vitro fertilization wasdemonized when it was first
developed, for instance, withopponents arguing that it was
unnatural, a perilous insult andthe biggest threat since the
atom bomb.
It's estimated that more than12 million people have been born

(29:40):
through IVF since Louise Brownbecame the first test tube baby
46 years ago.
The announcement of the birthof Dolly the cloned sheep back
in the 1990s launched ahysterical reaction complete
with speculation about armies ofcloned warrior slaves.
Why do we hear about medicalbreakthroughs in mice but rarely
see them translate into curesfor human disease?

(30:01):
Why do so few drugs atinterclinical trials receive
regulatory approval, and why isthe waiting list for organ
transplantation so long?
These challenges stem in largepart from a common root cause a
severe shortage of ethicallysourced human bodies.
It may be disturbing tocharacterize human bodies in
commodifying terms, but theunavoidable reality is that

(30:24):
human biological materials arean essential commodity in
medicine, and persistentshortage of these materials
create a major bottleneck toprogress.
This imbalance between supplyand demand is the underlying
cause of the organ shortagecrisis, with more than 100,000
patients currently waiting for asolid organ transplant in the
US alone.
It also forces us to relyheavily on animals in medical

(30:46):
research, a practice that can'treplicate major aspects of human
physiology and makes itnecessary to inflict harm on
sentient creatures.
In addition, the safety andefficacy of any experimental
drug must still be confirmed inclinical trials on living human
bodies.
These costly trials risk harmto patients, can take a decade
or longer to complete, and makeit through to approval less than

(31:09):
15% of the time.
Although it may seem likescience fiction, recent
technological progress haspushed this concept into the
realm of plausibility.
Pluripotent stem cells, one ofthe earliest cell types to form
during development, can giverise to every type of cell in

(31:29):
the adult body.
Recently, researchers have usedthese stem cells to create
structures that seem to mimicthe early development of actual
human embryos.
At the same time, artificialuterus technology is rapidly
advancing and other pathways maybe opening to allow for the
development of fetuses outsidethe body.
Such technologies, togetherwith established genetic
techniques to inhibit braindevelopment make it possible to

(31:52):
envision the creation ofbodyoids, a potentially
unlimited source of human bodiesdeveloped entirely outside of a
human body from stem cells thatlack sentience or the ability
to feel pain.
Embryos made from stem cellsrather than an egg and sperm
appear to generate a short-livedpregnancy-like response.
In monkeys, it could even bepossible to generate organs
directly from a patient's owncells, essentially cloning
someone's biologic material toensure that the transplanted

(32:15):
tissues are a perfectimmunological match and thus
eliminating the need forlifelong immunosuppression.
Bodyoids developed from apatient patient cells could also
allow for personalizedscreening of drugs, allowing
physicians to directly assessthe effect of different
interventions in a biologicalmodel that accurately reflects
the patient's own personalgenetics and physiology.

(32:36):
We can even envision usinganimal botioids in agriculture
as a substitute for the use ofsentient animal species.
Of course, possibilities are notcertainties.
We don't know whether theembryo models recently created
from stem cells could give riseto living people or, thus far,
even to living mice.
We don't know when or whetheran effective technique will be

(32:57):
found for successfully gestatinghuman bodies entirely outside a
person, and we can't be surewhether such bodyoids can
survive without ever havingdeveloped brains or the parts of
brains associated withconsciousness, or whether they
would still serve as accuratemodels for living people without
those brain functions.
Even if it all works, it maynot be practical or economical

(33:17):
to grow bodyoids, possibly formany years, until they're mature
enough to be useful for ourpurposes.
Each of these questionsrequires substantial research
and time.
However, this idea is plausibleenough to justify discussing
the technical feasibility andthe ethical implications before
it's too late.
Bodyoids could address manyethical problems in modern

(33:38):
medicine, offering ways to avoidunnecessary pain and suffering.
For example, they could offer amoral alternative to how we
currently use non-human animalsfor research and food, providing
meat or other products withoutanimal suffering or awareness.
But when we come to humanbodyoids, issues become harder.
Many find the concept grotesqueand appalling, and for good

(33:59):
reason.
We have an innate respect forhuman life and all its forms.
We don't allow broad researchon people who no longer have
consciousness or, in some cases,never had it.
But at the same time, we knowhow much can be gained from
studying the human body.
We learn much from the bodiesof the dead, which these days
are used for teaching andresearch, with consent hopefully
.
In laboratories we study cellsand tissues that were taken

(34:23):
again, hopefully with consentfrom the bodies of the dead and
living.
Recently, scientists have evenbegun using experiments on
animated cadavers of peoplewho've been declared legally
dead.
They lost all brain function,but their other organs continue
to function with mechanicalassistance.
Genetically modified pigkidneys have been connected to
or transplanted into theselegally dead but physiologically

(34:45):
active cadavers to helpresearchers determine whether
they would work in living people.
In all these cases, nothing waslegally a living human being at
the time it was used forresearch.
Human bodyoids would also fallinto that category, but there's
still a number of issues worthconsidering.
The first is consent.
The cells used to make bodyoidswould have to come from someone

(35:05):
, and we'd have to ensure thatthis someone consented to this
particularly controversial use.
And, however, perhaps thedeepest issue is that bodyoids
might diminish the human statusof people who lack consciousness
or sentience.
Thus far, we've held to astandard that requires us to
treat all humans born alive aspeople entitled to life and
respect.
Would bodyoids created withoutpregnancy, parental hopes or

(35:29):
need parents blur that line?
Or would we consider a bodyoida human being entitled to the
same respect, and if so, why?
Just because it looks like us,a sufficiently detailed
mannequin can meet that testbecause it looks like us and is
alive, because it's alive andhas our DNA.
These are questions that willrequire careful thought.
Until recently, the idea ofmaking something like a bodyoid

(35:50):
would have been relegated to therealms of science fiction and
philosophical speculation, butnow it's at least plausible and
possibly revolutionary.
The potential benefits for bothhuman patients and sentient
animal species are significant.
There's no need to start withhumans.
We can start exploring thefeasibility of this approach
with rodents or other researchanimals, but as we proceed, the

(36:12):
ethical and social issues are asimportant as the scientific
ones.
Just because something can bedone doesn't mean it should be
done.
And even if it looks possible,determining whether we should
make bodyoids non-human or humanwill require considerable
thought, discussion and debate.
Some will be by scientists andethicists and others with
special interests or knowledge,but ultimately the decisions

(36:34):
will be made by societies andgovernments.
So the time to start thosediscussions is now, when a
scientific pathway seems clearenough for us to avoid pure
speculation, but before theworld is presented with a
troubling surprise oh, that isso interesting.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Um, thank you for thank you for sharing that.
I never heard about body oidsbefore and I feel I feel like I
don't know how I feel aboutthose.
Really, yeah me either.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
Yeah, I mean what my thought is.
Why do you have to?
Why do you have to make it ahuman?
Why can't you just put them inthose cute little orange and
white things you talked about?

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, why can't they live in the organocs?

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Like grow one in there.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
There you go.
Yeah, crazy Yikesies.
I guess we'll see what comes ofthat in the coming years.
I don't think that will beanything super quick.
No.

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Back to our case.

(39:36):
So the sentencing sparkedoutrage from Chad, amelia's
family and the prosecution.
Senior Deputy District Attorney, audrey Neff-Ziger, argued that
the lenient sentence set adangerous precedent, stating it
was the most heinous and violentinvoluntary manslaughter case
that she'd encountered in nearly30 years.

(39:56):
The jury deliberated for lessthan four hours before finding
Brynn Spacer guilty ofinvoluntary manslaughter.
Her team was disappointedbecause, going into the case, it
was known that she was going infor either a guilty verdict of
involuntary manslaughter or anon-guilty verdict.
No one can test that she wasunconscious and not able to
control or have knowledge of heractions during the attack.

(40:18):
Her defense team felt thatChad's chronic marijuana habits
made him able to tolerate higherdoses and that he knew she was
a novice user.
They charged him with criminalnegligence.
The defense claimed Brynnsuffered involuntary
intoxication due to thefollowing and therefore should
not be charged with manslaughterNumber one she inhaled under
duress.
Number two fraud and deceptionwere involved.

(40:40):
Chad knew what was in the bongand Brynn did not.
Number three Chad had aroommate who smoked out of that
same bong previously and thatperson had a negative reaction
as well.
He had hallucinations and afeeling of dying.
He ended up taking his clothesoff and running outside for help
.
Chad did not tell Brynn aboutthis.
She stated under oath that shewould not have partaken of the

(41:01):
bong hit if she'd known aboutthis.
She stated under oath that shewould not have partaken of the
bong hit if she'd known.
Brynn's defense team speculatedthat jurors felt they couldn't
let Brynn off to the sheernumber of stab wounds that she
inflicted on Chad.
Some jurors stated she shouldhave been on notice when she
noticed the bong had a milkysubstance.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Okay, I mean, I guess , if you don't do that, a lot
like Right.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
As a novice user, do you even know what that means?

Speaker 2 (41:25):
How would you know?

Speaker 1 (41:27):
So, as a reminder, for legal purposes, the
definition of a psychotic stateis the loss of ability to
distinguish between delusion andhallucination and reality.
Deputy's video footage frombody cam showed Brynn's conduct
Blood curdling screams, Brynnbeing tased four times while
still stabbing herself, and thenbeing beaten nine times with a
metal baton.

(41:47):
She was in an agitatedpsychotic state with superhuman
strength.
Jesus, you don't have to havepredisposing conditions if the
dose is strong enough.
Phone texts revealed that hewas ordering through illicit
delivery services at strengthsof 38.1% and that the weed came
with a warning for hightolerance users.
Only had Brynn known shewouldn't have taken a single hit

(42:10):
, let alone two.
So I looked at what are somecases of cannabis-induced
psychosis in recent history andthere were a few that came to
light.
One was in 2021, diego CostaSilva killed and decapitated his
wife, fabiola De Campo Silva,believing she was possessed by a
serpent.
He had a history of dailycannabis use and was diagnosed

(42:32):
with cannabis-induced psychosis.
Two forensic psychiatriststestified that he was suffering
from a persistent psychoticdisorder, not just acute
intoxication.
In 2024, a jury found him notguilty by reason of insanity and
he was committed to apsychiatric facility.
In 2019, james Kilroy murderedhis wife, valerie French Kilroy,

(42:54):
by beating, stabbing andstrangling her.
He claimed to have beenexperiencing a cannabis-induced
psychosis at the time.
However, the jury rejected hisinsanity defense and in 2024, he
was found guilty of murder andsentenced to life imprisonment.
In 2022, 22-year-old HaydenKidd killed his grandmother,
shirley Kidd, during acannabis-induced psychotic

(43:15):
episode.
He mistook her for his abusivestepfather and attacked her with
a matic.
Not sure what that is, but itsounds with a matic.
Not sure what that is, but itsounds like uh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
I don't either.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Sticks with a ball with spikes on it.
Um.
He pleaded guilty tomanslaughter and the judge
acknowledged his low moralculpability.
Due to his severe mentaldisorder, he was sentenced to
five years in prison, with ajudge urging parole authorities
to release him with adequatesupport as soon as he becomes
eligible in 2022 as well.

(43:48):
Joshua jocks murdered hisgirlfriend, her mother,
grandmother and thegrandmother's partner in a
drug-induced psychotic episode.
He'd been using high-potencycannabis and claimed the
murder's worst sacrifice.
Despite his claims of mentalillness, the jury found him
guilty of murder and he wassentenced to life imprisonment
with a minimum term of 46 years.

(44:10):
These cases illustrate thecomplexities of using cannabis
induced psychosis.
As a legal defense, outcomeshave ranged from acquittal by
reason of insanity to fullconvictions, depending on
factors like the defendant'smental health history, expert
testimony and the specifics ofeach case.
Spacer is appealing herconviction, asserting that her

(44:34):
intoxication was involuntary andresulted from Amelia pressuring
her into consuming a largeamount of marijuana.
She claims that Amelia had atemper and could be physically
aggressive, which made her tooscared to refuse his request to
smoke with him.
Her defense team asserts thatinvoluntary manslaughter must be
reversed for insufficientevidence of criminal negligence,
stating that an ordinarilycareful person would not have
known smoking two puffs ofmarijuana, a legal substance,

(44:56):
could cause a psychotic breakand violent hallucinations.
They further posit that it wasan error to exclude evidence
that Chad had choked Brynn inthe past.
Evidence of his past violentconduct was relevant and
material to prove that hepressured her to take the second
puff and that intoxication wasinvoluntary, which is a complete
defense of involuntarymanslaughter.

(45:18):
The autopsy revealed 108 stabwounds to Amelia inflicted by
four different knives.
Amelia was stabbed in thetrachea, carotid artery, jugular
vein, heart, lung, liver, chest, back, shoulder and head, which
caused death within minutes.
He had marijuana in his system,but no synthetic drugs or
alcohol.
Stipulated that Amelia's bloodtest revealed the 11HD9 THC was

(45:42):
7.3 nanograms per milliliter andthe D9 carboxy THC was 110
nanograms per milliliter and theD9 THC was 48 nanograms per
milliliter.
Blood samples were taken fromBrynn on May 28, 2018 at 1.53 am
.
She had lacerations on her neckand hands.
The video showed her stabbingherself in the neck, which was

(46:04):
life-threatening, and she wasimpervious to pain.
Chad Amelia had been studying tobecome an accountant.
Friends described him asfriendly, hard-working and
optimistic.
However, he had a temper andwould sometimes become really
angry.
Chad routinely smoked marijuanathroughout the day and ordered
it from a delivery service.
He smoked the biggest, the best, the strongest marijuana.

(46:29):
Chad's cell phone textsrevealed he was ordering
marijuana through an illicitdelivery service at a strength
of 38.1%.
Studies have shown that thepsychoactive effects of THC can
occur at 13% potency, regardlessof a person's predisposition to
a reaction.
A few months earlier, chad'sroommate, vinny Olviera, smoked
a bong prepared by Chad whichmade him hallucinate.

(46:50):
He described visual distortionsand felt like he was dying.
Vinny wanted to strip downnaked and run outside to find
someone to take him to thehospital.
He blacked out.
Dr Chris Mahandy, aboard-certified forensic
psychologist for the prosecution, agreed with Dr Fong that Brynn
experienced a level four, thehighest level, cannabis-induced
psychotic break withhallucinations and major

(47:12):
misperceptions of reality due tothe cannabis which caused her
to take a life and harm herself.
Dr Mahandi concluded that Brynnkilled Mr Amelia because of her
distorted reality and inresponse to the command
hallucinations.
While in a state ofmarijuana-induced psychosis, she
was stabbing herself in theneck, impervious to the pain,

(47:33):
she heard voices saying to keepstabbing Chad.
There was no evidence thatBrynn lied about or exaggerated
her symptoms.
Vinny also had a psychoticreaction and newer marijuana
users are more likely to freakout or have panic attacks.
Testing revealed that marijuanawas 4.1% delta-9-THC, a

(47:54):
mid-level strength.
With no other illicitsubstances this was testing in
the bong.
Other drugs burn off whensmoked and some synthetic drugs
are undetectable.
Delta-9 THC is a psychoactivecomponent of marijuana.
Some marijuana is 31.8% THC.
So the THC testing in this casewas incomplete.

(48:15):
It wasn't quantitatively tested.
It's impossible to confirm thatthe substance tested that was
left behind was what Bryn Spacerhad actually smoked.
Forensic scientist Scott Coleytestified that THC produces a
euphoric, relaxing feeling, butsome individuals experience
hallucinations, increasedanxiety, paranoia and even

(48:35):
psychosis.
Thc affects inexperienced usersmore than habitual users who
have a higher tolerance.
Over time, thc is absorbed.
The effect of marijuana isinstant and peaks 10 to 30
minutes after use.
At 1.53 am, when Bryn's bloodwas tested, it indicated recent
marijuana use and no othersubstances and that she was an

(48:57):
infrequent user.
Dr William Wershing, a UCLApsychiatrist, watched the deputy
body cam video and concludedBrynn was in a severe
marijuana-induced psychoticstate when she stabbed Chad and
herself.
The positive effects ofcannabis use include
anti-inflammation, seizuresuppression, mood stabilization

(49:17):
and anxiolysis, which you know,pain relief.
However, as cannabis decreasesand THC increases, the drug
becomes more potent with astronger high and is more
psychotoxic.
Wax a distillation of marijuana, results in a more potent 30 to
75% THC and produces a moreintoxicating effect.
Wax residue was discovered atthe bottom of Chad's bong.

(49:40):
Dr Wershing has observed peoplein psychosis cutting off their
genitalia, pulling their eyesout and trying to remove their
internal organs.
Dr Buffington, a pharmacologistand toxicologist, testified that
marijuana potency can be ashigh as 85% plus.
Chad ordered 31.8% OG Cush afew days earlier, which was a

(50:02):
substantially high potency, muchhigher than 4.1%.
And when 31.8% marijuana is putin a bong with oil or wax, the
marijuana is taken to adifferent level.
Stacking hits are when moredoses are added, which makes the
bong milky white, increasingpotency At lower potencies.
Marijuana produces euphorianrelaxation, as we talked about,

(50:24):
but as potency rises it cancause psychosis, hallucinations
and delusions, and this potencyis too much for the brain.
So again, the marijuanascrapings from the bong were
4.1% THC, but the unburned rawmaterial was what needed to be
tested for an accurate readingand obviously that could not be
performed because it was gone.
So testing a burnt materialdoesn't accurately reflect its

(50:47):
potency.
Other drugs may have beenburned off before the burnt
material was tested, since onlytrace amounts were left in the
bowl.
So Dr Mahandy opined that theTHC that Bryn was given was more
potent than the 4.1% found atthe scene.
Based on her extreme reaction,bryn and Chad's blood tested
positive for THC.

(51:07):
Chad's THC level was 48nanograms per milliliter, which
indicated recent use at a highlevel, taken within an hour.
Bryn's THC level was 13.7,which was substantially lower
and was taken in the last hour.
Green Air, the delivery servicethat Chad used, is not
regulated like pharmaceuticalcompanies, so you don't know

(51:28):
what you're getting.
And it was even worse in 2018.
There was a warning that the31.8% marijuana was only for
high tolerance users and BrynSpacer was a naive, infrequent
marijuana user.
So, again, dr Bruffingtonstated that the body cam showed
that Brynn was in acannabis-induced psychosis
physically present, but notcognitively present.
She was awake, she was moving,but she was non-responsive to

(51:50):
communication with others.
She was stabbing herself andChad.
She was not responsive to pain.
Eight officers tased hermultiple times, hit her with a
baton and she just was notpresent in the room with them.
Her multiple times hit her witha baton and she just was not
present in the room with them.
Chad, they maintained, was awareof what would happen to someone
exposed to a high-potencysubstance because he similarly

(52:11):
prepared the marijuana for Vinny, his roommate, and saw his
reaction.
So Dr Buffington opined thatChad loaded a high-potency
marijuana into the bong, stackedthe hits to maximize the
intensity, andency marijuanainto the bong, stacked the hits
to maximize the intensity anddelivered it through the bong,
which administers it rapidly toan inexperienced user.
Based on his training inpharmacology and toxicology, one

(52:31):
would not expect that takingtwo hits from marijuana would
cause the reaction, because twohits from standard marijuana
would not cause someone to killand inflict extreme self-harm.
Someone who's not a routineuser would not have the
experience to know.
A routine user would not havethe experience to know the
warnings and would not have seenadverse reactions to themselves
or others.
Dr Jean Lampert, a licensedmarriage and family therapist,

(52:51):
treated Brynn for PTSD, intenseemotional distress, flashbacks,
guilt and shame.
Devin Johnson, a teacher andlongtime friend of Brynn,
testified she was honest andnever violent.
Spacer testified at trial.
At the time of the incident shewas working for UCLA as an
audiologist, diagnosingpatients' hearing loss and
fitting them with hearing aids.
Brynn has been deaf sincechildhood.

(53:13):
She had a cochlear implant andreads lips.
Her family and friendsdescribed her as friendly and
never violent.
She loved her dog, aria, aSiberian husky, and would never
have hurt her intentionally.
Aria survived the incident,thankfully.
And I was just thinking if shehad a cochlear implant that
means that, if you know, it'sheld on by a magnet and if she's

(53:35):
thrashing around on the floorin a state of psychosis, I
wonder if her processor was evenon her head.
So that's just one more layerto this is that she was in a
state of psychosis.
I wonder if her processor waseven on her head.
So that's just one more layerto this is that she was in a
state of psychosis and death.
She couldn't hear the officersaround her or people talking to
her.
Um, it was all.
I just think it probablyfurther, uh, enhanced or

(53:59):
heightened her, her littlebubble psychosis, if you will,
right, because there was nothingbreaking through.
She couldn't hear, right, yeah,what was happening and she was
having visual For sure.
No one said that.
But I mean she has a cochlearimplant.
Chances are she didn't hearanything without it and they
fall off fairly easily if youjump up and down hard enough.

(54:20):
So she's rolling around on thefloor um stabbing herself in the
neck yeah that thing might falloff.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
So that was just another layer that occurred to
me, but anyways, you should havebeen an expert person to
provide medical information, inthis case forensic audiologist.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Um, no, too stressful , um, but anyway, this.
This case brought attention tothe phenomenon of cannabis
induced psychosis, particularlyabout high potency marijuana
products.
It was definitely eye-openingfor me because I I think of
marijuana is like, like I said,the cheech and chong chill sort
of factor you can't overdose onit.

(54:58):
So where was I?
Experts noted an increase incases of psychosis following the
legalization of recreationalcannabis in California.
Dr Mahandy highlighted thegrowing number of violent
incidents linked tocannabis-induced psychosis.
Also, the incident underscoredthe need for clearer regulations
and warnings regarding thepotential mental health risks

(55:21):
associated with high THCcannabis products.
For sure, advocates called fora stricter oversight in public
education to prevent similartragedies.
In interviews, including theappearance on the Dr Phil
podcast, spacer expressedremorse for her actions and
emphasized the dangers ofmarijuana-induced psychosis.
She's since engaged in effortsto educate the public about the

(55:43):
potential risk of cannabisconsumption, particularly
concerning mental health.
Chad's father expresseddisappointment over the verdict
and the appeal.
He shared that at Chad's vigil,a friend of Chad's told him
that if Chad was there, she knewshe was safe.
He shared that Chad had theutmost respect for women and the
elderly and that over 1,300people attended his funeral.

(56:05):
He described his son as lovingand caring and that he was a
good listener.
He stated that Brynn never toldhim that she was sorry for what
happened, but that Brynn'sfather had looked him in the eye
in court and apologized, and herespected that.
He stated that the jury did notdo their job, nor did the judge
, and that there was noconclusive evidence that there

(56:26):
was high-potency marijuana inthe bong.
He stated that the casedisplayed evidence on how broken
the justice system is.
So the case of Bryn Spacerserves as a complex example of
the intersection between mentalhealth, substance use and the
legal system.
It highlights the challenges inaddressing crimes committed
under altered mental states andraises important questions about
personal responsibility, legalaccountability and public health

(56:49):
education.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Holy guacamole.
I just learned so much aboutcannabis tonight.
I too was in the camp of myunderstanding.
Was it's like chill, relaxing?
I mean, I've heard before likepeople say oh, I don't like
smoking because I feel like um,anxious or paranoid, but I have

(57:14):
not heard of people going intopsychosis, right it's, that's
scary especially, especially ifI'm imagining there's synthetic
materials or they're there.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
They figured out ways to deliver higher levels of THC
per dose now.
So it's not just like lightenup a weed that you pluck from
your back garden, it's, it's a,it's a drug and uh scary that
it's legal in so many places,and including Minnesota and um,

(57:46):
that there are websites that aredelivering uh, with just a
little mild warning, somethingas potent as what Chad was
buying.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Yeah, that's crazy and I did not know the link of
um like susceptibility togetting like schizophrenia If
you're a user.
Yeah, I didn't know any of thateither.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Yeah, I mean, I've heard about what's that.
There's a drug, it's not peyote.
There's a drug that people gooff to like a camp to do, to
like get spiritual enlightenment.
But there's a risk.
What is that called?
Listeners probably shouting it.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
Yeah, sorry guys, I've got nothing.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Um but um.
There's a risk of permanent,permanent psychosis, like
permanent hallucinations andwhatever Like why even with a
one right?
Even with a 1% chance like whywould you even put yourself in
that?

Speaker 2 (58:38):
I'm like, take me to a winery.
I can be Zen there.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
I'm like take me to a winery, I can be Zen there,
right?
Oh my goodness, so scary, youknow.
And kids are growing up withthis being legal, so we've got
to teach our kids as well, likeyeah.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Yeah, that's.
That's a horrible case.
That's a that's a tough onebecause it's at the end of the
day, you did kill somebody, yeah, but I guess you didn't know
you were doing it.
I mean, that's kind of the samecase as, like, the drunk driver
that kills somebody, right.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Yeah, should they be responsible?

Speaker 2 (59:11):
Maybe not the same as like the psychosis factor, but
if you're completely inebriatedand you don't know what's
happening happening.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
So, even though her sentence was no jail time, the
reason that she's appealing andI think what came across to me,
at least from watching the stuffand reading the articles was,
um, you know, it was still afelony and so she can't practice
audiology, she has lost herlicense, um, so you know, if
she's been found to be notculpable, then why does she have
to give up her entire career?
Whether you agree with it ornot, you know, yeah for sure.

(59:49):
And then I think it was Dr Philwho raised this question.
You know there are instances ofpostpartum psychosis where
that's also something that's notconscious on the part of the
person who's undergoing thepsychosis, and those women have
not been treated similarly.

(01:00:10):
They've been locked up andinstitutionalized.
And how fair is that?
And I don't know, it's just.
I think it comes down to sheunknowingly.
You know he knew more than shedid about what was he was giving
her and you know I doubt hegave it to her.
Well, obviously he wouldn'thave given her something like

(01:00:31):
yeah, you're gonna go, you know,go into psychosis and kill me.
But at the same time he was, hewas not being transparent in
what he was doing.
He was was like oh, I'll showyou.
You know that kind of macho.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Just do it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Come on.
Oh, you say you don't feel high.
Well, I'll show you what highis.
I don't think it was malicious.
Yeah, probably, but at the sametime it still wasn't
transparent and yeah, I don'tknow how I feel about her
sentence.
But if, like I said, if she'sfound culpable, then she needs

(01:01:06):
her life back and good for herfor doing community service on
educating the public on thisissue that I was not aware of.
Honestly, I came into this kindof blasé like, ooh, there's an
audiologist who killed somebody.
You know 108 stabs.
Ooh, you know what a cow, butyou know what a what a cow.
But um, yeah, it's a littledeeper than that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
So it's a thinker, it is a thinker, that's a thinker.
Well, great job on yourresearch.
Thank you again, samantha, fortelling her to cover this case.
Yeah, thanks, sam, you left uswith some food for thought,
that's right.
Sorry, I just had to get thisyawn out of my mouth.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
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Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
I mean, really, you can't beat that, you can't, you
cannot.
But before we move into whatyou're going to hear about, next
week we've got a medical mishapand this tale is from Marianne
and she writes Hello ladies, hi,marianne.
She writes hello, ladies, hi,marianne, hi.

(01:03:22):
First of all, thank you forcreating this podcast.
I am a longtime true crimefanatic and just so happen to
also work in the medical field.
Oh, you are welcome.
That is why Jenna dreamed thisup, I think.
Also longtime true crime lover,yeah, and she's wanted to do a
podcast for years and years andyears.
So here we are.

(01:03:42):
Thank you for joining us,marianne, okay.
So she writes this was a oh, oh, I'm so sorry I cut her off.
So she says this was ano-brainer that I would find my
way to your space.
Welcome, happy to have you here.
Um, I look forward towednesdays to see what you two
have come up with.
I'm not sure that this fits intothe mold of a medical mishap,

(01:04:02):
but more of a mistake with achart note.
That was a running note.
Nope, is a running joke intheir office for a very long
time, so I thought I would share, hoping it brings a laugh to
someone.
Many years ago, one of ourdoctors was dictating a
radiology report saying there isevidence of infiltrates in the
lungs consistent with PTB, sopulmonary tuberculosis.

(01:04:25):
But the transcriptionist,unfamiliar with the abbreviation
, interpreted it phoneticallyand typed there is evidence of
infiltrates in the lungsconsistent with pizza TB.
Yes, according to the officialchart, the patient's lungs
looked like they had pizzatuberculosis.
The report was flagged duringrounds and the team of course

(01:04:50):
laughed.
The phrase pizza TB stuckaround as a running joke
whenever someone dictated areport too quickly.
Hope this will bring you all alaugh.
Best, marianne, oh my gosh, Ilove that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
It's like little pieces of pepperoni in the lung.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
Maybe that was my thought is funny.
Back when you guys used to useyour transcriptionist, I was
working in the department and Iwould try to proofread them for
you guys, because you guysdidn't have time to do that kind
of stuff.
And yeah, and bless everytranscriptionist heart, right,
because if you don't work inthat practice or that specialty
or whatever, you don't know.
And so in our realm ofaudiology I know it was always

(01:05:31):
written oral, like we do, oralA-U-R-A-L, but it was always
written oral like the mouth,o-r-a-l, so that always had to
be changed.
That's not as funny, as it'sactually not funny at all, but
pizza tb is funny.

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
Um yeah, so my favorite was always, like you
know, they had difficultyhearing in public, but they'd
write.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
They had difficulty hearing in pubic oh my gosh, I'm
just like okay that one thinkabout it.
That's so funny.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Oh, good ones.
I mean, we could probably do awhole episode on transcription
mistakes.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Seriously, I bet there's some real doozies out
there.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Well, that was a nice cheery way to end this episode.
We've gone a little bit over,but listen next week.
What are we going to hear aboutAmanda?

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
We are going to tap into the old dentistry land.
Yeah, we haven't been there yet, yeah, so I'm excited to hop
over there, and we'll just callit a cram of passion, passion
passion dentistry oh la la,we'll just call it a crime of
passion Oof.
Passion, la passion, passion.
That's a three.

(01:06:47):
Oh yeah, ooh la la, ooh la la.
You know, but until then, don'tmiss a beat.
Subscribe or follow Doctrinethe Truth wherever you enjoy
your podcasts for stories thatshock, intrigue and educate.
Trust, after all, is a delicatething.
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(01:07:08):
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(01:07:28):
Don't forget to download, rateand review so we can be sure to
bring you more content next weekand until then, stay safe and
stay suspicious.
I really drew that out becauseI was like you coming in girl.
Come on, alliecat, let's go,okay, bye.